Pumping Up Carbon Bicycle Wheels Until They EXPLODE
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ส.ค. 2023
- Are Hookless wheels appropriate for road cycling? We have a look.
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Great to see an entire video dedicated to Pump Action Francis.
110psi, but that's a static test...but you could even try much lower then put speed and cornering stress going down a hill fast into the equation. I just don't think hookless has any place on a road bike.
Exactly, the weight of bike+rider will already increase the pressure somewhat, not to mention going over bumps and the like.
Totally agree, hookless may be fine for gravel and MTB, but for road, no thanks.
Why would the pressure go up if there is a rider on the bike? The volume stays the same, that's the shape of the tire that's changing not the volume.
But I agree that altitude and heat (created by speed) are gonna have some impact on the pressure 👍
For riding with hookless on the road, I never inflate over 65psi (4.5bar) too keep a small margin but I'm a light weight guy (so with 28mm tire I don't need more). Nonetheless I don't think that's the kind of wheel for every rider and they need to find a way to alert people on those limitations.
@@ee-dt6oe I'm not saying the pressure will go up, but a tyre deforms when you apply braking and cornering forces / under load, therefore you will experience issues in the real world much lower than the 110psi in this example.
@@ee-dt6oe of course the volume changes when the rider sits on the bike. Imagine the tyre is like a baloon that you squeeze in your hands - it changes shape slightly but eventually the baloon will pop. The same applies to the tyre.
Good video, reaffirms my choice to never buy hookless. I’m fine with companies trimming component weights and their manufacturing costs, but not when it reduces rider safety. There are safer ways to cut the weight.
really.
110psi inflated right away blew off. Inflated to 70 for two months of riding stretching the bead I bet it would take even less to make it pop off.
Yes. In my vid where it blew off at 5 bar, it took 90 seconds first time, about 25 the next.
yeah hookless doesn't sound safe at all. it just sounds like companies cutting corners to reduce manufacturing costs.
Surely the pressure will increase when the wheel hits a pot -hole, stone etc. It's be interesting to see how close the booklet from gets to the danger point when being ridden.
I was thinking about this recently, but the change in pressure will be proportional to the change in volume of the tyre, so i bet there is actually very little change in tyre pressure over bumps etc - but the jolt we feel is more surface area of the tyre pressing against the obstacle, which feels like higher pressure
Sure does! With tubed wheels the PSI molded into the side of the tire is one half of the pressure required to blow it off of the ETRTO test rim. My tires are 75 psi tubes and that's what's molded into the tire. They're 60psi max with tubeless but you have to find that information on a website. I did a poor job hopping the rear wheel over a curb and blew off my tubeless tire because I was running it at too high of a pressure to start with and the curb impact blew the tire off of the rim. Sounded like a gunshot.
Totally agree! Another scenario is leaving a bicycle in a hot car. It could heat the tires, expand the air inside the wheel and have it blow sealant (liquid latex) onto the car’s interior.
Very glad you've covered this! Your coverage on the state of hookless wheels & tires in the podcast was also excellent - equally funny & sobering.
I've been on hookless firecrest 404's for 5 months or so now with GP5000S TR's and I've been trouble free for all of that time. These are actually the best cornering wheels I've ever ridden, the grip of these tires on these rims is insane, I've not even pushed it to the max yet and still I'm blown away by what they can do.
However, Francis I am 1000% percent in agreement with you about those Giant Tires being sold on bikes with those hookless rims and i CANNOT believe the company is putting bike in show rooms like that. I work at a shop in the US and I'm not confident that everyone in my store would know to inform the customer about hookless rims. I am actually quite certain that two of my fellow employees would know nothing of the technology. Similar to tubeless, hookless is a bit of a performance upgrade. It requires the user to know something about their bike, which many customers buying bikes of the peg will know nothing about bikes nor their own bikes. I think it's pretty silly to sell hookless on brand new bikes off the showroom floor. It's something for the customers upgrading their bikes to know about. But for someone buying a brand new complete bike, I agree hookless should not be part of the equation.
If hookless rims make the wheel cheaper to produce, fine I guess. I've owned a couple of pairs of Zipps over the years and I gotta admit my current 404's are REALLY great wheels and the price hasn't really gone up much compared to my old tubular 404s from like 2009 but these do ride DRAMATICALLY better. So, they may not be getting cheaper for us consumers but they are getting better as long as you know to run them at 72psi and below. And speaking of getting cheaper, I used to have a set of Zipp 303s wheels and they were cheaper... $1300 for Carbon Zipps?! That would have been unheard of just a decade ago so the technology is becoming more attainable as well as better.
Kind of a moot point about new giant bikes being sold with hookless as stock rims. Giant bikes with hookless wheels come with Giant tires and there is not really a restriction on the pressure with this combo. Most of their hookless rims have a max PSI of 125 as long as you use a compatible tire.
If you are spending the $5k + on a bike that comes stock with carbon hookless rims I think it is implied that you’d do you own due diligence research on them.
@@KN-vl7nk bruh you would think so, and so did I before I worked in a shop. I work in the DC area in a fairly high end shop and we get plennnnnnty of people who don’t do the research you or I would before dropping that kind of coin 🤦🏽♂️
The scariest part is dynamic pressure. I'm a heavy bloke, something like 115kg last time I checked, so I'm used to riding around 90psi by default just to make sure the tyres will support my weight. But what about when you hit a bump you didn't see in the road? What about when you just can't avoid a pothole, or you want to bump/hop up/down a kerb. For a split second the pressure in the tyres goes up by a fair amount. With hooked rims and beaded tyres I've never worried, if anything the rims will fail because I bottom the tyre out before pressure ever becomes an issue. But with hookless, it seems like an accident waiting to happen.
Worst still is cornering. You lean over a fair way when cornering at speed on a bike, and I'm not confident in any way that the combined issues of a lateral force on the tyre, and the increased load due to centrifugal forces, won't result in blow-outs.
As far as I can see hookless is being peddled as 'safer' but is actually being pushed because it increases profit margins. Same wheels, same price tag, cheaper to make. Sure there's the argument that the rim can be made more impact resistant with hookless, but IMO that only really applies to MTB and maybe gravel, where they run very low pressures anyway. No roadie is buying wheels based on their ability to resist damage from bottoming-out, and if they were they'd be buying steel wheels.
Just because the technology works with MTB, doesn't mean it's transferable.
One cynical thought - seeing as it's pretty tough paying mortgages and such these days. Go buy some hookless rims. inflate them to 72.5psi. Then do hill reps and go hard on the descent. provided you survive the inevitable, and you've got a reasonable lawyer, you'll have no trouble getting Giant, ZIPP, or whoever to buy your house for you!
🙄🙄
I'm a similar weight with the bike and I ran Hunt Gravel hookless rims with 28c Schwalbe Pro One tyres at over 90psi for around 4 years, I had no idea about the pressure limit until recently. I never had an issue until the rim tape failed.
Except none of this is happening. No exploding wheels as guys take turns etc.
This is called inventing a problem that doesn't exist.
If you guys want to go back to steel wheels and frames, and rim brakes, please do, but leave the rest of us out of it.
4 year old Hunt wheel is not hookless.@@neilpassingham7309
@nealm6764 whether or not it is happening, there's no real gain and all that to potentially lose.
What exactly do I save by running rimless? What exactly does it offer me? Stronger rims? Well frankly I wasn't planning on bottoming out and if I do I've got bigger problems than my rim taking a hit.
Instead of 'us sticking to steel and leaving you out of it' how about you buy your hookless rims and let the rest of us carry on the way we want. That argument doesn't really work does it...
I’ve been riding hookless for 4 years at the recommended pressures for my weight, which is below the 72.5 maximum, without any issues. But I know quite a few riders who have hookless rims and know nothing about the 72.5 psi maximum, ride at 90 psi, and don’t believe me when I tell them about the danger. One of the reasons is that a local Giant store, where the bikes are supplied with hookless rims, was recommending and fitting non-compliant tyres to their hookless rims when they had replacement tyres fitted. They were also inflating them beyond the 72.5 psi on the Giant rims. If a local bike shop that sells bikes with hookless rims doesn’t know the standards then what hope has the general public got. A problem that existed for a long time, but less so now was the difficulty in finding tyres that were hookless compliant. For so long there was only a small range of tyres that would fit a hookless rim. Happily, that number has now increased.
I have the Zipp 303s and the first few rides I was definitely like "Are these going to explode." After hundreds of miles, they are still as good as new and I love them! Follow their instructions, and tires should also tell you what pressures to run to stay safe with hookless. Good luck have fun!
Hookless is like pressfit back in the day. Created only to facilitate and make cheaper the manufacturing process. It's not meant to benefit the final consumer.
Well, Zipp decreased the price for its products by a good amount. If they transfered all savings to the costumer and didnt increase the margin might be a different story. Furthermore a zipp wheelset is a bit lighter than most sets from other brands.
TUBULARS were the ORIGINAL 'hookless'. They still beat ALL the crap out there!
@@Xarx42I think the only reason they cut prices is due to more competition rather than lower manufacturing cost.
@@hkchew03 Hm, eventually I dont know, but it would surely make sense. There is no need anymore for more complex casts, which can only be used once.
Wrong! pressfit done right (with required tolerances) is better and much better than threaded (due to smaller tolerances compared to threaded fitting). Hookless is just cheaper to manufacture for carbon rims.
Good vid. Let me at least say I daily run my bike with Cadex 36 hookless wheels and Vittoria Corsa Pro at 6bar’s of pressure whilst Vittoria claimed the safe limit is 5bar. They have been faultless. Also in the shop (only selling Giant/Cadex wheels them being all hookless) we actively work to inform customers. On the other hand Giant’s safety protocol’s for approving a tire they have to able to withstand 1,5times the normal pressure. I think its fairly safe and most people riding carbon wheels are aware of pressure limits these days.
a fool and his money are easily separated, especially where newer cyclists with disposable income are concerned. not everyone spends every waking hour reading bike radar and watching bike vids on youtube.
as a person who's ridden seriously on and off for the better part of 20 years, i came back to the sport earlier this year and found it unrecognizable and confusing. my 2014 race bike has alu box rims fit for 23s, and upgrading or switching platforms can be intimidating. this is an incredibly involved sport, which is precisely why i think so many of us gravitate to it. it's important to remember that every ride is someone's first group ride and you can't assume someone's knowledge or dedication based on what's between their legs.
tubeless is touted as a cure-all, but it seems expensive, confusing and potentially dangerous. the more videos like these we have on the subject, the better it'll be for riders of all stripes.
@@maximilian3004 i’m all down for Cade Media actively working to discuss these things to make people more aware but all I’m saying is out of my experience (Dubai industry, Berlin industry & here in the Netherlands) I see a fair awareness for tubeless and their pressures. I get it completely that it may look daunting for new people hence it is my job to actively inform people on these topics.
You are spot on. This isn't going to end well.....way too many people are used to pumping up their tires to those pressures and have felt completely safe doing so for years.
True.
Great to see Dov & Parcours on the new channel Francis 👏.
Arms like Schwarzenegger! 😅💪. Fun video test! Have a great bank holiday weekend guys!
Thank you! I'm a few months away from buying a new road bike, and it's been over a decade since I purchased a new bike, so I didn't fully what to look for. And this helps!
I weigh 92kg and never go below 85psi on 25mm tyres. If I’d bought a bike that came with hookless wheels I’m pretty sure I would have been clueless to know I can’t put that much pressure in. Also at the lower pressure because I run tubes I’m pretty sure I’d be getting pinch flats.
I think hookless is tubeless only
Hookless rims need tubeless compatible tyres, but you can still run them with tubes.
At 92kg you'd run tubeless with a 28mm or 30mm tyre, and pressure would be below 70psi with either. You won't get pinch flats as there's no tube to pinch.
I am 118kg and run at 91psi on 25mm. I will stick with the hooked. For me hookless would would be like riding on live grenades.
@@ColinSmith2001 tubes with low pressure because its hookless?
I have the exact Giant tires/wheelset as at the end of the video. I’m 168lbs. and run 70/75psi front/rear. No issues after two years but I did my due diligence by consulting my Giant LBS and reading information online prior to riding this setup. Tubeless is not for every roadie, and I certainly agree, LBS’s must know what’s on the floor and manufacturers must inform you what is and isn’t compatible with their products. The Giant website lays out tubeless information well.
I have giant and can run pressure above 72.5. They are leading the pack for hookless tech
Important to note that the pressure you pump it up to isn't the same pressure as when you are riding. Pressure increases due to friction/heat as you get going.
Or the weight of the rider.
You’ll probably find that tyres will blow off hookless rims at much lower pressures if you leave them for a few hours because tyres stretch over that kind of period of time.
Incorrect
Absolutely correct. My tyre blow off at 5 bar after 2 minutes.
@@CyclespeedTours which tire? If that’s a modern tubeless tire, I call
Bullshit.
Nothing will be done until someone gets hurts and sues.
Now you’re speaking corporate language!
Spread awareness and boycott these products.
Thanks for making this video. I first ran into hookless on some gravel wheels. I was very surprised by the limitations but because I don’t need high pressure in gravel they’re fine. But I’m shocked they’re marketed for road in this config.
Thanks for this. Appreciated.
You're forgetting on those Giant wheels mentioned at the end of the video, the WHEEL max pressure is 125psi AND it's hookless. The label is between the spokes. Still wouldn't go that high with tubeless though
Great video Francis, completely agree with you stating that more needs to be done to correctly inform consumers of the dangers that could happen.
However I am recent convert to tubeless and hookless wheels (Zipp 858 NSWs).
Previous wheels are Zipp 808 NSW with hooks.
I’m an engineer by trade and the idea of hookless initially terrified me but I personally wanted to give it a go for myself.
I’m 75kg and the suggested tyre pressures with a 28mm tyre (Pirelli P Zero Race TLR) on the 858s with a 23mm internal rim width is 61psi rear and 56psi front. Significantly below the maximum.
I have been running 60psi front and rear and have had 0 issues thus far.
I check my tyre pressures before every ride using a digital pressure gauge just to be sure they are accurate and for reassurance.
The difference in ride quality and rolling resistance has been fantastic compared to my 808s with Vittoria TPU inner tubes on the same Pirelli tyres. Significantly more comfortable.
Giant actually allows certain tires to be inflated over 5 bar on their hookless rims! In fact most of the time I have to give the tires on my Giant wheels about 7 bars for the tires to be properly seated on the rim. No idea, what it is with other hookless rims, but the Giant stuff certainly needs the pressure in most cases.
Yes, that's true and Giant has quite an extensive list of tires that they tested. However, this also adds confusion. When I bought my Giant with the SLR1 wheelset I had to contact support to verify that they can really be inflated over 5 bar.
I seated my SLR1's with about 130 psi out of the canister with Conti 5000 S TR's 25MM. No issues. I regularly run them about 68PSI. @@manueldeubler1127
Yes that warning at the end using a giant rim and tire is complete BS. Giant has an approved and tested tire list where you can safely go well above 72.5. You can still use other tires as long as you stay below 72.5psi.
@@KN-vl7nkThank you! Glad I'm not the only one who caught it! Those rims have a max pressure of 125 psi. It's labeled right on the rim!
part of my routine now is using either the SRAM tyre pressure app or Silca to get my pressure spot on - yes with Tubes i went 100-120psi but now with tubeless never in those regions. Though from years of MTB i got used to using a gauge to get my pressures correct
First ride out with my new bike on a summers day.
Used to put ca 8 to 9 bars in my tyres so gave the new ones the same.
Mavic Allroad S with 32 mm Vittoria Terreno Zero.
Got half way to the climp of the Le Grand Caunet
In Roquefort-la-Bédoule.
Was going at 10 km/h and saw the front tyre getting black of the rubbing and bang my rear tyre jumped out of the rim.
I put the tyre back on and continued without any problems.
At home inspected the lot and no damage to be found.
Cleaned the mess up and installed the tyre with just a little latex on the beat so it sticks well to the rim.
No use to put it in the tyre cause I’m not planning to get a puncture.
Now enjoying riding at 5 bars max
Would have been interesting to see you mount the tires to see how they fit. It would also be interesting to find a tire that could be easily installed with no tools to see what pressure it pops off at.
I still think it would blow riding at 90psi, imagine riding on a hot day, warm tires from a long downhill and the tire compressing over road bumps all helping to increase the pressure probably over 100psi.
Incorrect.
@@portland675 You could have pumped you tires early morning when it was 0 degrees C now it's 30 C midday when your riding there is +3 PSI (happens in Australia) then you finish on a huge bumpy downhill the heat in the rubber from friction and flexing will add 1 - 2psi then a large compression of the tire from hitting a pothole will increase the pressure even more for a split second, not sure by how much but air compresses very easy I would guess anywhere from 1 - 5psi extra.
@@KurtisPape all of what you describe happens. None of it makes a difference. Now when carbon rim brakes were a thing, we saw lots of tires blowing off rims from the heat.
@@portland675 Might not cause a blowout but you are getting closer to the 110psi failure point, who knows how the tire would react leaning into a tight switchback.
@@KurtisPape I do know, because they’ve been tested extensively. Nothing happens.
Thanks Francis. I had convinced myself that hooked rims were right. Now you've proved it. Your remarks about altitude are relevant, but also consider hot and/or impact. Inflate your tyre on a normal day and ride on a hot one. Heat makes air expand (carbon almost does not) so pressure increases, also hit that pot hole and the impact increases pressure.
While your budget might not support it, it would be interesting to see the Giant Gavia Course 1 / 3S Hookless wheel combination subjected to the test conducted in this video. Giant's published test protocol includes "the tire is inflated to 1.5 times the recommended maximum pressure and must withstand this pressure for 24 hours without blowing off." You might need someone beefier manning the pump to get it up to 187.5 psi.
That part of the video is very misleading. Those Giant hookless rims have a max pressure of 125psi, and can be safely ridable at high pressures. Though would agree with seeing that combo being tested!
@@CupheadAleks Part of the confusion may be associated with varying guidance provided by different manufacturers of hookless rims for max pressure. I see reference to a max in the ETRTO standard of 5 bar (72.5 psi), ZIPP saying to stay within the standard, ENVE hookless model dependent (up to 90 psi for 25mm tires). All I see Giant indicate is "Never exceed the maximum (MAX) tire pressure indicated on the rim, the tire or the rim tape." They also indicate not to go below the minimum pressure indicated on the tire, noting that their 25C's can now go down to 70 psi in spite of what is printed on the tire.
Two things: 1. Use a pressure calculator. It's interesting what happened when i changed from hooked to hookless. 2. If you are one of the 'heavier" riders, get bigger tyres, if you can. Go from a 28 to a 30 or a 32mm tyre. The difference is you ca run lower pressures and still have a stable setup. I weight 77kg and run 55 front/60 rear on 28mm Corsa N.EXT tyres. This is per the recommendation of my LBS. 65/70 was too high.
Just had cust come in today for a valve core replacement. Asked what pressure he had.. 100psi he said . This was on. Giant SLR1 hookless, cadex tubeless 28mm.
Lucky we caught it in time.
This is so true. I was shocked to find my new wheels, Mavic Cosmic SLR 32 discs, were subject to these conditions. It's not called out say for example with a flyer stating warning or some indicator like that. I think 70 psi is the maximum stated on the wheel and it's not exactly easy to read.
Had a Zipp 303s wheel explode trying to seat a tyre, very loud bang so luckily I didn’t end up with tinnitus or hearing loss. Be interesting to see if the industry reacts to the dangers.
I’ve also spoken to tyre manufacturers who have told me that etrto standards are too slack and that the wheel and tyre manufacturers have a gentleman’s agreement to have the same sizing but to a tighter tolerance to improve road tubeless…..
Check Giant tire test protocol. Their wheels can and NEED to be pumped above 72.5 psi if you are a heavier rider. They also have tire pressure calculator. Have you heard of anyone with slr01 or cadex wheelset problems? Me neither.
I will stick to hooked rims and tires. Thank you for this video.
I have not run 110psi since 23mm clincher or 22mm tubs.. I'm not in the least worried
I built a titanium bike up 5 years ago and after a few months added Hunt Carbon Gravel wheels with hookless rims that I bought second hand off eBay, I contacted Hunt to check that the early model GP5000 tubeless was compatible but they said NO, so I returned the tyres and bought Schwalbe One Pro TL in 700cx28, I ran these tubeless for 4 years at 80-90PSI without issues until the rim tape failed (I hadn't heard about the 72PSI limit until recently), I still run them tubeless but within the limit (well less than 75psi)
Good point, well said Francis. It's dangerous. Another point worth considering (Not sure if anyone else has said it..... can't be bothered to check!!) is rider weight. What is a 100PSI tyre, with a 80Kg rider sat on it?
Simple solution is max pressure stated by the valve hole on the wheel. My old 2016 Hed Jet clincher wheels have stickers saying 100psi max.
As you mentioned very few people will read instructions or buy them second hand with no instructions. Literal accident waiting to happen.
My tire's max psi with a tube is 75psi. That means it takes 150psi to blow it off of the ETRTO testing rim and it's safe to run a bit over, say 80-85psi or possibly even higher. They're rated at 60 psi tubeless but that's not molded into the tire and you have to look up the spec on the manufacturer's website to find that info.
I found out about the lower tubeless rating the hard way. Thankfully it blew off in front of a hardware store and I was able to go in and buy some wet wipes to clean off the tubeless sealant! I carry gloves in my repair kit to keep my hands clean but it was quite nice being able to wipe the sealant off the bike and then put a tube in the tire.
big ups to parcours for putting their own wheels up for this!
I don’t see the problem for experienced riders that know their equipment limits and follows manufacturer’s instructions. They are safe. But I do see the problem with the Giant wheel set shown at the end of your video. That same setup came with my 2021 Giant Propel Advanced Pro 1. I saw the discrepancy before I left the shop and asked the question, to which PSI do I abide with. Always take the lower of the two. I love the bike and everything about it! Never had an issue with the tires and rides great.
This is the second piece of content on TH-cam I see this week on this topic. The Chris Miller podcast with Peak Torque also talked about this subject. They mentioned the bead as a possible source of the problem? I bought my first carbon set last year.. and am slightly worried now even though I keep to the 72.5 psi limit and that's well within the operating conditions of the Schwalbe Pro One TLE...
Wow...
I had no friggin idea re: hookless. Def staying with hooked tubeless for foreseeable future.
Very interesting experiment. Now I have to go check out what kind of rims I have. Since going tubeless I run about 70 psi.😊
That pump, at least the one I have got, reads high. Recently started using topeak digital gage and its around 0.5-0.7 bar lower than that lezyne overdrive floor pump displays. So it might have been even under 100psi.
Love to see your videos.
Also, if you use Silca's tire pressure calculator, I can't get to a safe tire pressure till north of 30mm tires. SRAMs basically requires 28mm otherwise the recommended tire pressure is above the safety rating for hookless. (to SRAMs credit they put up a warning on their tire pressure calculator that tells you to get a wider tire.)
Should be massive text on the wheel itself warning of the pressure limit.
Lots of people used to (and still do) pump up tires by feel.
Can’t wait to see the first court case.
Sure sram were talking about reintroducing hooks again. Another point is the rim tape. I had an internal puncture using clx50s and the mega thin roval rim tape. Pressure forced the rim tape into the razor sharp carbon spoke holes. Not sure but I believe latest roval wheels come with inserts.
My specialized gravel bike has Hunt carbon hookless wheels they run really good had no issues with them at all
I'm running Giant's hookless rims, they came with the Cadex 25mm tyres which I didn't get along with so swapped out for GP5000S TR 28mm tyres. Giant's own calculator suggests it's safe to go above 72.5psi, would be interested to see you test this with a tyre/wheel combination they have 'approved'. The Giant hookless calculator seems to top out at 103psi for a heavy rider on 23s, it would be even more interesting to run this and simulate a 130Kg rider hitting a big pothole!
Personally I don't need to run at/over 72.5, I run 65psi at the moment. For myself, as someone who knew what they were buying and did some research, I'm not in any way put off hookless and I'll happily upgrade to some Zipp hookless wheels in the future. I also really like how well tyres fit, I assume because the tolerances are tighter with hookless, so it's easier to mount tyres and you can seat them with just a normal hand pump.
As for tire pressure in the tires. When riding over a bump on the road. There will be a pressure spike, that could cause a problem. It's good to know, that hookless tires can be ridden on ruff roads safely.
For almost two years I had hookless rims and didn't know about it. These are Mavic Allroads. I have them on a gravel bike and never pumped them more than 3.5 bar (the limit on the wheel is 4.2).
For about 700km I had a tire, for which the manufacturer instructions clearly said "hooked rims only". Luckily, I never had any issues and discovered that the rims were hookless when I was washing them for a tire replacement.
holy moly thanks big time I have a new-ish bike giant with tubeless tires... I'm going to check them to see what type they are and lower the psi have it set to 65 ish 😁😅 and I had my back tire loose pressure on me in a turn lost air and sealant had to pump up a bit. I'm new to this tubeless tire stuff it's cool but also a big pain in the ass
I run 28 & 30 mm tyres on hookless set up, on road set up (my choice) if you run 26 or 24mm you may want try inner tube set up. My bike shop recommended to me to run at 65psi
Giant tyres work at that pressure as they have a kevlar/composite bead that doesnt stretch as much. Same as Schwalbe I believe
I'd love to see a remake where the rig can bump and smash the wheel at interval to mimic road impacts. It's something to widthstand 1.5 in static pressure loads but dynamic loading is a whole other ball game. Actually, a safety ratio of just 1.5 in static loading sounds too low for dynamic loads....
There is also some risk with the accuracy of your pressure gauge. I had an old Topeak track pump that regularly showed 5psi less on the gauge against a digital gauge.
You tested a single tyre and rim combination failing at 110psi which suggests with a larger sample, failure would occur at lower pressures in some cases.
ENVE Foundation 45's with ENVE SES tires at 70psi. 3500 miles. No issues
Reason I bought Roval. Their wheels are tubeless compatible but have a hook so you can a) run tubeless AND clincher b) don’t have to worry too much about low psi pressure limits
The previous gen were hookless but thankfully they came to their senses
Yep love my hookless. But the reason I have them is run wide tires at low pressure. I would never run tires below 32cc on them for tw reasons. Comfort one and most importantly tubeless doesn't work as well on small tires. My rim brake road bike gets either tubular wheels or tubes in clinchers. The tubs ride the best out of all of them they are glorious and to get similar feel you need much larger tires. I said similar not the same because of the weight differences.
Had a set of hooked rims, that are designed for tubeless, let go of a set of tires (NOT DESIGNED FOR TUBELESS) at 80psi.
I've been on ENVE wheels with hookless rims for two years. I now have two sets of wheels: the first is the foundation 45 and the second is the SES 4.5. . Perhaps it is just confirmation bias, but I just want to say that the engineering is totally dialed in. With the appropriate tires --and ENVE has a list of approved tires-- they are astonishing. I completely agree with Francis that the tire manufacturers, in particular, need to do a better job of labeling max tire pressures for hookless. I never exceed 65 and they are a dream, btw.
I bought a pair of Mavic Allroad S not realising they were hookless. My original choice of tyre was therefore defunct. I did some research and chose a pair of Vittoria Terreno Zero tubeless ready tyres, not cheap! When they arrived they stated on the tyre HOOKED RIMS ONLY WTF! I did try fitting them anyway but found this impossible. 50 years of cycling and I have never encountered this load of expensive BOLLOCKS!!!!!! The tyre state tubeless pressure of 45-90 psi.
You know, pre War and early post War road bikes (I am thinking particularly of the Raleigh Record Ace and its derivatives) used 70 psi tires. They were in the right range all along.
I know you mentioned the wheels are gravel. What are the internal rim width? Does a 35, 40, or 47 mm tire behave differently on the hookless rim?
Thank you for making the time to test and putting the effort into pumping, and pumping, and pumping.
Yes, something need to be done!
As a scientific lab tech your safety margins are scary. But it is scary the disparity between wheel and tyre specs. I'm 6'3 and 98kg and hookless would be a nightmare for me. Funny amateur science test though. Great effort lads. 😅👍🇮🇪
Scary stuff!
Still healing from a gnarly tubeless blowout on a fast descent a year ago. Was well under 72.5 psi but the wheels were indeed hookless. At the time I was running 25mm internal w 28mm tires which the etrto no longer considers safe. No bueno.
As I said on your recent podcast ep, I believe hookless should not be used unless you are running 35mm+ tyres, especially if you're on the heavy side. One question to ask: what would happen if you put an inner into a hookless rim with a tubeless tyre? Is this the reason why maybe the tyre pressure range on the tyre exceeds that of the rim?
I just bought Zipp 303 Firecrest for rim breaks. They’re tubeless compatible but are not hookless.
Hookless is fine if you read and follow the recommended psi for the rim and tire.
I run Zipp 303 Firecrest (Hookless) now on 32mm GP5000S TR, I go out on group rides and most people fall over in disbelief when I tell them I only run around 50 psi!
I have regularly run my Enve 65 at 80psi for thousands of miles. 110 in a tire rated to 72.5 is just dumb. Plus most rims are 25 and 28mm now which are lower psi.
The reason I wouldn’t use a hookless rim on road is compatibility. If/when I travel, it’s possible to wreck a tire and the only tires you can find locally are non-tubeless tires.
Also, there are some brands that push hookless but still keep some hooked in their range begrudgingly, or describe them as semi hookless. I believe such semi hookless means you can still put non tubeless tires on but don’t go beyond the PSI limit for hookless rims.
I’m just gonna stick with hooked for road and gravel
Great video.
I'm a shade under 100kgs. i don't dare go too far with tyre pressure because ive exploded a tyre in the past. it'#s good that newer tyres print the rang eon - but it should be both hookless and hooked
I have a Giant TCR Advance Pro 1 Disc 2021 with SLR1 hookless wheels, been using it for more than 2 yrs now with avg 85psi with my weight about 78Kg on a Conti 5k STR 25mm.
Gay.
I'd possibly suggest 85psi for your weight is 10psi too much, certainly for the front. Take 5 out the back and 10 out the front and see how that feels over the same routes. Only if our routes are mostly smooth tarmac.
I run 80 rear and 75 front on 27mm/25mm tublars and I'm 15 stone/95.5kg, on hooked clinchers I'd ride a bit more but at your weight on tubeless I wouldn't be anywhere near your pressures.
Have a go anyway
@@oreocarlton3343 Rent free
Not all tubeless tires are compatible with hookless rims. My 700x30 Vittorio Rubino Pro's are marked tubeless ready but are also marked "MOUNT ONLY ON HOOKED RIM" FYI, I put about 800 miles on them mounted on DT Swiss wheels (hookless) before I noticed the warning. 😂
Thanks Francis and Dov...soooooo , duck and cover , run like hell , wear protection , AND.....have someone else do it , eh ?
When I bought my ZIPP 303s wheelset they came with BIG WARNINGS about not exceeding 72 PSI. Bike shop made specific recommendations on tire inflation for the Vittoria Corsa N.EXT tires. It's not the technology that's at issue, it's rider education.
On my Conti GP5000 S TR tubeless tires, it says the max pressure is 5 Bar. I would assume those Giant tires you showed were made before the ETRTO regs were updated.
Great video, but you have not considered two important things: 1) dynamic load on the tire - for example try to hit tire pumped to 100 psi with something to see what happens, and 2) pump gauge accuracy - most of the cheaper pumps have 2-5% accuracy.
Would be interesting to know if the brand of sealant and/or tape makes any difference, i.e. Silca sealant as it is supposed to fill a 6mm hole, so does this hold the bead better than a thinner sealant.
I did the hooked rim test a few years ago and it ruptured at 220 psi .
The fact that SRAM (Zipp) filed a patent for bonding hooks onto hookless rims is quite telling!
Hello, fellow Peak Torque-enjoyer
Same as the fact Specialized ditched the hookless CLX and went to hooked CLX II
For balance, you should mention cadex giant tyre and wheel combos support pressure above 72.5 for hookless. I run my 25mm tyres at 82psi.. easy
Never knew this was a thing.
Just purchased a Co-op bicycle a couple days ago.
Heard since that Giant manufactures the frame.
I’ll have to see what is on it.😳
It’s unlikely that I would have gone past 45 or 50psi for this application.
The question you posed was “what additional benefits are there?” But the test you performed only attempted to identify the point of failure. Additional benefits include:
1) more aerodynamic profiles, particularly where the tire meets the rim
2) additional strength to the tire shoulder.
3) less tire deformation under cornering loads
4) better cornering as a result of 2 and 3
5) lighter wheels with equal or greater strength
6) ease of manufacture resulting in lower cost to the consumer (theoretically)
I agree the information needs to be disseminated better. The rim itself needs to be imprinted with guidelines.
Pretty soon the tire manufacturers will sell new "closed tubeless ready" tires to compensate..and it will be all the rage in the pro peleton and they'll call them "Tubeless-ulars" ;-) (nice video guys)
I can guarantee that also if you pump your tires up close to the limit an either leave them in a hot car/ hot shed or even outside against a wall in a hot sunny garden you get left with what looks like a bed sheet at the aftermath of a swingers party... 3 times i've had a massive messy failure with wheels on my tubeless mountain bikes in the past.. Oh it scares the sh1t out of you when on a motorway with the bike in the back... I was about 110 kg , 6 ft 3 and running about 50 psi with 2.25 tires on Hope fortus 26 wheels. Hope this is useful
Safety goggles but no ear protection. With an explosive decompression, a pressure wave could damaging to the ears.
First time in my life I heard about hooked/hookless wheels, I'm 54 years old and have been biking since I was 7, still happily biking!
Hookless rims have been around over 100 years. Still very common on chinesium made bikes for children.
I just bought a second-hand giant tcr with hookless carbon-rims. The seller had installed tubeless goodyear f1 30 mm (lovely tyre btw) and he informed me to run it below 4,5 bar, so some cyclists know🙂
This is a very enlightening video. Being a retired motor & motor tyre technician, and ok, generally, with cycling technology, it's quite frightening that I am not fully aware of this problem. Also, if using your 72.5psi hookless tyres and rims on a long decent in hot climates, with heat build up, how near to the 'blow off' scenario will they get to?