It is somewhat fitting that the greatest harm done to Elves, Dwarves and Men arose from their own ranks. Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman did their own works of foul craft, but the Elven Kin Slayings, Gondorian Kin Strife and the conflict between the Elves and Dwarves grew from ambitions, greed and envies within their own hearts.
The only reason the kings of Rohan were so short-lived was because they spent every waking moment fighting the dunlendings and the easterlings and orcs
Iron Dragon 1990 : I’m pretty sure there was a war between the Dwarves also, back in the First Age, although Tolkien doesn’t go into much detail about it.
@@timonsolus I don't recall exactly but yes I think there were quite a few cases of evil or petty dwarves. I think I remember Turin killing a few or something. Didn't the Longbeards fight a rival clan?
@@TealWolf26 the Petty Dwarves were not called petty because they were evil, they were less organized and more nomadic tribes of Dwarves that arrived in Beleriand early on. They were decimated, however, because the Elves at first didn't know what they were and hunted them or drove them out of their homes. You remember correctly that Turin had some dealings with them as he met the last three living Petty Dwarves: Mîm and his two sons Khîm and Ibun. One of Turin's men shot Khîm dead, and Mîm himself was later killed by Hurin for betraying the place Turin was staying at (Mîm's own house). They're not likable, but they're not evil either, and I do feel bad for them.
@Tom Smith Slavery bad "For myself; said Faramir, I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens; not as a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor, and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise." -J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, “The Window on the West”
@Tom Smith The Lord of the Rings takes inspiration from Britain several hundred years ago so why would it focus on black people? A story by a a white guy about mostly white people involves mostly white people...not really a surprise. Its also worth noting that it focuses quite a lot on death in battle in the case of Rohan which is a Norse aspect not Christian. Either way imagine a story based on Britain in the middle ages and this is what you get. So don't be upset that POCs aren't a key focus of the story. Instead grow your story and allow that aspect of your creativity to flourish.
I'm glad to hear it :) I appreciate this community so much, and would not be where I am today without it. My videos are conversations, and I like to talk in the comments as much as I can!
Osgiliath was rebuilt, but it was, unfortunately, never as important as it formerly was. This always seemed weird to me, seeing as how Osgiliath is situated on the Anduin river, making it a perfect spot for trade. It was also larger than Minas Tirith, meaning it could house more people to live in it, as it was a proper city, and not a fortress.
@@NOIDEAIWILLJUSTUSEHAILEYIGUESS A really great thing about it was it was a bottleneck to enemies who wanted to invade the region by land or the Anduin.
When a population has been dimished that much there is no need for more cities in a long time. Minas Tirith was half empty already before and during the war of the ring so i always wondered where the people would come from to repopulate arnor, minas ithil, osgiliath and all the other lands. Despite all the things aragarn would and could achieve, a population isnt grown back in a couple of years.
@@origami83 From my understanding, there was much de-urbanization and folks going to rural areas, particularly the bread basket to provinces in the west of Gondor. It was further from Gondor's enemies and the sites of the Kin-Strife and plague. Also Dol Amroth did quite well. Much of the army came from these provinces as opposed to the garrison of Minas Tirith and the nearby fortifications. I'm sure a generation or two without the threat of Mordor and the opening of trade and warming of relations between the men of Middle-Earth would do the trick. Peace breeds prosperity, and well, breeding. Look at the Baby Boom post WW2 in our world. They'll be fine. At least until humans screw it up like we always seem to.
@@TealWolf26 I do agree with what you are saying but it takes a very long time, a couple of generations like you said. So there would be no need to rebuild osgiliath for quite some time, let alone arnor.
Hey everyone, thanks for watching. I apologize for the blurred image in the video, the image owner reached out and wished for me to remove the image. It is not ideal, but for the security of the channel, I hope you all understand. Thanks!
Hey Yoystan, I love your videos and you have taught me much about the lore of Arda. It would be epic if you did an epic character history on Ecthelion, one of the Lords of Gondolin.
Very interesting and incredibly informative video Yoysten! I read a little bit about the Kin Strife but didn’t really delve deeper into it. Thanks to this I might go back and read more about it!! It’s quite sad when one group of peoples feel that they are “better” than another. It’s reminds me a lot from reading Harry Potter and how many “Pure” blooded wizard families thought they were better than those of “Mixed Blood” You still see a lot of that still going on today but in the end the good and true always persevere.
Hey Yoystan, because of your channel i read the Lord of the rings and the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion became my favourite piece of fiction of all time. Thank you so much for making me intrigued and curious about the legendarium!!!!!
Men of the West is the only channel i subscribe in youtube, honestly. I love listening to it every night before i go to sleep. J.R.R. Tolkien is one of a kind, like, the rare kind. Some day we'll listen to him telling his tales in the next life, hopefully.
You sneaky devil! I just realized that at the end of each of your entertaining videos is a pertinent life lesson which centers on the tale of the video - are you trying to both entertain AND educate us at the same time'...? Truly, one of the best channels on all of TH-cam. I thank you for all that you do, no matter how surreptitiously done.
Your videos take a paragraph or two from Tolkien and turn them into an interesting saga; and we can always trust that they're accurate and true to the original lore. Thank you for continuing to make this world more alive!
Great video, I learned a few new things which I dont often come across anymore. For a video idea, could you do a video/series about the magic of Middle-Earth?
Thanks Daniel, glad to hear it! I actually made a video on the use of magic in Tolkien's works a few years ago! Enjoy! th-cam.com/video/HG3xX6QTwGE/w-d-xo.html
man, i can hardly put in words what a great job you are doing for tolkiens work. i often find myself in the internet within tolkienfans, who are trying to interpret his world in a right-wing way, polluting tolkiens masterpiece about peace, friendship, honor, and the right to live for everyone, with their ideology. i'm far away to say that tolkien was a leftist, but he sure didn't want his stories be compared to the idea that different races have different ranks. but you really understand the thoroughly positive message of tolkien, as from the "loyal men of rovanion, we see that no matter where one comes from, greatness and good deeds may always be achieved by any with the willing heart to do so" and "that acceptance, alliance and love should always overcome prejudice". wonderful said!!
Great video yoystan and I’d also like to add from the kin strife of Gondor we also see how pride and prejudice of maintaining superiority or a family name or line, can destroy that family rather that repair it just as those who supported castamir who later saw him as an arrogant and cruel king!
I completely forgot there was a Gondorian Civil War. This was really interesting so thanks for making it mellonin! Btw could you possibly make a video on the Great Plague (it would be appropriate for these times hehe)?
Thank you for the support, my friend! I think I will make that video when we get closer to the end of our own pandemic, I don't want to take advantage of a bad situation.
I just wanted to tell you This is the favorite of all the channels I watch. I was wondering if you have hey segment covering all the famous or mythical weapons of middle earth. I asked this since I am forging a sword of my own, My new hobby during these trying times. Keep up the good work, This is a truly great channel.
I feel like it’d be basically the same thing as in the original timeline just in reverse but instead the blood of numenor was stronger, and the people of Arnor would make strong alliances with the dwarves of the blue mountains and the elves of Rivendell and the grey havens. That’s just my personal opinion.
@dreaming of electric sheep if Arnor survived it would mean the Palantiri would remain in Arnors hands. The main battle would be the Gap of Rohan. Control of the gap would be control of the South. Mt Gundabad would probably fall to the elves or more likely the Dwarves and remake the Legendary awakening spot of the 7 father's of Dwarves. Rivendell and Lothlorien would endure but passed the Fangorn Forest would be lost to Mordor. Attack from the sea would be the new wrinkle in the Third age as naval might would be more important. Much different results if changed but all this is just speculation. Interesting to discuss though.
I also find it likely that the west might have more of a disadvantage, as gondor being in ruin gives sauron's allies the ability to rally together without being hindered greatly by the land. the Black Numenoreans would also likely rise to new heights of power, with their numenorean brothers in gondor as slaves for keeping their blood more pure.
@dreaming of electric sheep without the Darkness of Mordor looming in the east, I wonder how Arnor would have flourished with mostly safe ring of mountains and sea for protection. Organized attacks could come over the Misty mountains for surprise attacks or down the Anduin to attack Rohan and potentially Isengard. With the Gap more strategic, I wonder if Saruman would be in Isengard or somewhere else. Maybe the Argonoth overlooking Rauros to Mordor? I don't know, the Brandywine river becomes more important and the old forest would potentially be more important too.
I always wondered, in my adult life, if there was ever infighting within the kingdoms of men and elves in the legendarium. The mainline story maked it seem like there was no other strife without involvement of the orcs to my young, naïve eyes. I am very happy I found this channel.
You Know how I said last week, "Gondor: Civil War" I forgot to add, "Coming to the Cinemas near you" but it's not at the movies, it will be soon on TH-cam!!! Thanks, Mellon for talking out a Civil War (in Middle Earth Not Marvel) we don't know about... Until a Livestream, Yes, Yes, *disappointed* Oh Man...I can't make it I will have to be up 3 hours earlier to make it... But: *I don't have any questions to ask you for it (not yet)* Until post the Livestream...Marion Baggins Out!!!
I really wish that the importance of this story was played up more in Tolkien's works, as it so greatly runs counter to the perception that his ideas are based on racialism and ancestral superiority. When you look closer, you often find that there are a lot of loopholes in the doctrine that "Blood Never Lies," as Tolkien interprets it. Here, for example, we have a story of how an exaggerated obsession with "purity" actually served the forces of evil (a conflict subtly foreshadowing JK Rowling's ideas about "purebloods," I think). In the fall of Numenor, we have a tale in which the main, royal house of an established bloodline gets corrupted, and the "cadet" branch saves their entire people. And the whole family was descended from people of mixed species: that is the lesson that Castamir forgot.
The “rightful” lineage ends up corrupted as well as most of the Númenórean population as a result of their hubris. And when Gondor falls prey to the same ideals, devastation repeats itself. It’s honestly poetic.
This story proves Tolkien wasn't racist. For some reason people think he was racist because they think the Easterlings in his stories are meant to represent minorities. This story is about how your race doesn't define you, its your actions. Castamir, even though he was full blooded, was an inferior king to Eldacar, who is mixed.
He was mixed within the "western europeans" of middle earth though, it would be more like a mixture of Visigoths and Celts as far as I understand. By the way I'm totally fine with that, in todays world it is racist if you respect and recognise your european heritage, so of course Tolkien would, sadly, be called a racist in this context.
@@r.k9441 He's not. If anything hes attacking people who bring their dumb politics into it. The far right who claim tolkien was like them when he hated their ideology. The far left who call tolkien racist when they are either lying or just a bunch of morons. Unlimited Perseverance is just telling it as it is.
I believe the "race issue" never crossed Tolkien's mind, so such a meaning might not have been his intention. Now that I think about, isn't that how we should all treat race?
Can you please talk about the Wainrider & Balchoth, you've already done the Angmar War and I personally always enjoyed the war between Gondor and the Easterlings
One really needs a cheat sheet for these Fancy Tolkien names. When I hear of civil war, I hear the song Brother My Brother from the 1st Pokemon movie in my head .🎶
I have to say, that wiser words have seldom been spoken: "It is who we choose to be, not who we have been, or what we are expected to be that truly counts." One has to wonder how things would be right now in our world would there just be more compassion, kindness, selflessness, bravery, and love for one another as fellow human beings. That said, it isn't too late to start moving in a better direction, and start being kinder to one another. Small acts of kindness go a long way in making the world a far better place.
The only reason their bloodline was somewhat Superior was because of the extended lifespan but after the war they pretty much screwed themselves because both sides were forced to basically intermingle with middlemen because they wiped out most of their population of numenorean blood
That's a good point. I see that stories like these in Tolkien's works show how, even those with extended life may cause great harm, or doing nothing with their gift. While others without such a gift can live good and mighty lives. Life, short or long, is what we make of it, it seems. That's one thing I take away to be a very Tolkienian lesson.
@@MenoftheWest I tried figuring out that kind of scenario through a fanfiction I've been writing. Turns out my character of the ruler in question has in practice at the throne for more than 400 years but spends most of her time abroad to avoid the stagnation, leaving most of the governing and day-to-day Matters To Her counsel.
Keeping the bloodline pure was a serious thing in the past. The royals would often marry another royal to keep it that way, and they believed it would (correct me if i'm wrong) make their bloodlines far more superior than a commoner. The problem with this is that it made succesion question turn violent like like The Hundred Years war, and The War of Roses. Forgive me for my bad english, I'm from Norway
I got an interesting what-if: What if Drogo Baggins and his wife hadn't drowned in the Brandywine, or what if Frodo was sent to his kin of the Brandybucks instead of to Bilbo?
Man, that would be a possibly more awesome story line. If Sam were the protagonist in the rings trilogy. So many variables. Can't remember exactly what was said about him but other than Tom he was able to fairly easily weather the influence of the ring.
@@jim1550 "As it drew near the great furnaces where, in the deeps of time, it had been shaped and forged, the Ring's power grew, and it became more fell, untameable except by some mighty will. As Sam stood there, even though the Ring was not on him but hanging by its chain about his neck, he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself, a vast and ominous threat halted upon the walls of Mordor. He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be. In that hour of trial it was his love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command. 'And anyway all these notions are only a trick, he said to himself." This shows that while indeed Sam showed great resistance to it's power, he was not unaffected, and if in a theoretical change of scenario Sam had never met and bonded with Frodo he might have been more vulnerable, the variables would really change some events if Frodo never met Sam for example in the end Sam is quite a bit like a protagonist of the story as well as it is now :).
If many of the peoples near the coast were on castamir's side, does that means the ancestors of the princes of dol amroth sided with castamir? Seeing as the Swan-knights have pure numenorean blood.
That is a great question Hailey, and I would imagine that to be the case. They may have sided otherwise, as the lineage of the Prince may have had some Elvish blood in it, making them possibly more agreeable to the King of Gondor, but I could see them siding with Castamir, especially for the reason you stated.
Bit if they sided with Castamir, then why didnt they leave Gondor when he died? If they fight for Castamir, after his defeat they would have fleed to Umbar instead of staying in Gondor, thus the House of Prince Imrahil wouldnt rule Dol Amroth during the War of the Ring.
@@alvaroavilablanco3350 It's entirely possible that some of them did. Rarely are groups of people of the same mind. Unless there were great purges and exoduses of "sympathizers and traitors," there could have been mixed support for each side. I do find it interesting that there was a prince while a steward sat in the capitol. Maybe that says something as to the relationship between the two.
I know one thing to be true. Either side of the war had one hope, that a seriously buff warrior named Yoystan that would either bring them to victory or roll over them. No doubt this is you, as I can only think of you as quite buff, and truly, we all fall under your feet. I fall however on purpose with joy
It's because of the lessening of numenorean blood that Aragorn would die within his early 200s where the house of the King was capable of living for 500 years
Hasan Wilson : Elros, the first King of Numenor, lived for 500 years because he was half Elven. The lifespan of the Kings of Numenor slowly diminished because they had less Elven blood. E.g. the son of Elros would be 1 quarter Elf, his grandson would be 1/8th Elf, his great grandson would be 1/16th Elf, and so on.
@@timonsolus The lifespan of the kings of Numenor remained very stable (arround 400 years) until the rule of Tar-Ciryatan (1500 years after the death of Elros). The decline seems to be linked with the growing corruption of the Numenorians, and not with elf-blood.
So...nobody ever anchored a boat over the ruin of the Osgiliath Bridge and took a dive or two to find the Master Palantir? It's almost certainly buried under some pretty white masonry somewhere down there. How many other priceless artifacts does the Anduin shelter under its waters?
"I was there the day the strength of men failed" Oooofffff honestly this vid helped alot; I always got confused when reading about the many many many (sigh) many kings of men lol If theres one thing that all the free peoples have in common uts that they will either fight with each other or among themselves. Sounds eerily familiar 😏
I understand why Tolkien wouldn’t finish the 4th age, a fantasy fiction with nothing but men is barely a fantasy, but it would sound fascinating, nonetheless
The kings of Gondor all took names and even titles in Quenya, to elevate themselves and their deeds even further. Much like rulers during medieval coronations and in the chronicles being addressed by latin equivalents of their names and the title Rex. It's a status thing that peasants such as us eat up because we think it's so legit.
I always thought it was the morality of the Dunedine that lengthened their lives not the mingling of their blood... because their lives were shortened in Numenor when they abandoned the Valar
It is somewhat fitting that the greatest harm done to Elves, Dwarves and Men arose from their own ranks. Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman did their own works of foul craft, but the Elven Kin Slayings, Gondorian Kin Strife and the conflict between the Elves and Dwarves grew from ambitions, greed and envies within their own hearts.
Very interesting observations! I think you are quite right in them, I'll have to keep reflecting on this.
A common enemy unites people. Without orcs things get, well, how they are in real life.
Interesting observation Grand Moff
Totally agree. Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Fall of Gondolin.
As long as some put themselves before all other considerations there will be war.
"those with numenorean blood can do great evil." Doesn't surprise me... As they tried to attack Valinor...
With all the gifts, skills and talents they received, they are born to do great things... wether it will be good or evil is the thing...
It wasn't really them who attacked Valinor, Sauron made them.
@@Tindog42656 But let's not ignore that the Numenoreans weren't exactly great people by the time prior to Sauron coming to Numenor.
Those with Numenorean blood can do *_great stupidity_*
The only reason the kings of Rohan were so short-lived was because they spent every waking moment fighting the dunlendings and the easterlings and orcs
The middle men could've switched to saurons side at any moment allying with them was a wise choice
No, they were short-lived because they weren't blessed by Eru Iluvatar like the Numenoreans were.
I think both Hasan and Hazzmati's reasons are very interesting.
@@hazzmati It was not Eru that blessed the Numenorians it was the Valar.
@@donpula6349 The Rohirrim has no blood relation to the Numenorians.
Whether it's the Gondorian Civil War or the Elvish Kin Slayings, there's nothing more tragic and heartbreaking than a War among Brothers.
Iron Dragon 1990 : I’m pretty sure there was a war between the Dwarves also, back in the First Age, although Tolkien doesn’t go into much detail about it.
@@timonsolus I don't recall exactly but yes I think there were quite a few cases of evil or petty dwarves. I think I remember Turin killing a few or something. Didn't the Longbeards fight a rival clan?
@@TealWolf26 Be something to ask Men Of The West that's for sure.
@@TealWolf26 the Petty Dwarves were not called petty because they were evil, they were less organized and more nomadic tribes of Dwarves that arrived in Beleriand early on. They were decimated, however, because the Elves at first didn't know what they were and hunted them or drove them out of their homes. You remember correctly that Turin had some dealings with them as he met the last three living Petty Dwarves: Mîm and his two sons Khîm and Ibun. One of Turin's men shot Khîm dead, and Mîm himself was later killed by Hurin for betraying the place Turin was staying at (Mîm's own house). They're not likable, but they're not evil either, and I do feel bad for them.
@@anemone3694 Thanks for the clarification 👍
Aww, civil war, perhaps one of man’s favorite pass time. For real tho, still love these videos and keep it up.
As our past history has shown. Civil Wars are humanity's superior past time. Its sad. But happens when history isnt learned
@Rogue Jedi yes, war is bad.
Tom Smith I hope you’re joking because if you aren’t then shut up
@Tom Smith Slavery bad
"For myself; said Faramir, I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens; not as a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor, and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise."
-J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, “The Window on the West”
@Tom Smith The Lord of the Rings takes inspiration from Britain several hundred years ago so why would it focus on black people?
A story by a a white guy about mostly white people involves mostly white people...not really a surprise.
Its also worth noting that it focuses quite a lot on death in battle in the case of Rohan which is a Norse aspect not Christian. Either way imagine a story based on Britain in the middle ages and this is what you get. So don't be upset that POCs aren't a key focus of the story. Instead grow your story and allow that aspect of your creativity to flourish.
Civil Wars are always the worst wars....brothers killing brothers should never happen😔
Your conclusion is better than Yuston's. Normally his are excellent, but this one was a bit politically correct.
All wars are civil wars
Kinslaying is forever established as the greatest evil somebody can do
Favorite thing about you: You heart comments, comments of *comments*, and actually read comments.
I'm glad to hear it :)
I appreciate this community so much, and would not be where I am today without it. My videos are conversations, and I like to talk in the comments as much as I can!
I love that about him too! He’s so nice! He deserves so much more subs!
You know, I always wondered if Osgiliath was ever rebuilt.
Osgiliath was rebuilt, but it was, unfortunately, never as important as it formerly was. This always seemed weird to me, seeing as how Osgiliath is situated on the Anduin river, making it a perfect spot for trade. It was also larger than Minas Tirith, meaning it could house more people to live in it, as it was a proper city, and not a fortress.
@@NOIDEAIWILLJUSTUSEHAILEYIGUESS A really great thing about it was it was a bottleneck to enemies who wanted to invade the region by land or the Anduin.
When a population has been dimished that much there is no need for more cities in a long time. Minas Tirith was half empty already before and during the war of the ring so i always wondered where the people would come from to repopulate arnor, minas ithil, osgiliath and all the other lands. Despite all the things aragarn would and could achieve, a population isnt grown back in a couple of years.
@@origami83 From my understanding, there was much de-urbanization and folks going to rural areas, particularly the bread basket to provinces in the west of Gondor. It was further from Gondor's enemies and the sites of the Kin-Strife and plague. Also Dol Amroth did quite well. Much of the army came from these provinces as opposed to the garrison of Minas Tirith and the nearby fortifications. I'm sure a generation or two without the threat of Mordor and the opening of trade and warming of relations between the men of Middle-Earth would do the trick. Peace breeds prosperity, and well, breeding. Look at the Baby Boom post WW2 in our world. They'll be fine. At least until humans screw it up like we always seem to.
@@TealWolf26 I do agree with what you are saying but it takes a very long time, a couple of generations like you said. So there would be no need to rebuild osgiliath for quite some time, let alone arnor.
I don't think I ever delved into the Kin-strife before. great to learn about a new event. (new to me)
Hey everyone, thanks for watching. I apologize for the blurred image in the video, the image owner reached out and wished for me to remove the image. It is not ideal, but for the security of the channel, I hope you all understand. Thanks!
Hey Yoystan, I love your videos and you have taught me much about the lore of Arda. It would be epic if you did an epic character history on Ecthelion, one of the Lords of Gondolin.
This is a real fascinating a entertaining Middle Earth channel, thank you! ☠️🏴🖤
Very interesting and incredibly informative video Yoysten! I read a little bit about the Kin Strife but didn’t really delve deeper into it. Thanks to this I might go back and read more about it!! It’s quite sad when one group of peoples feel that they are “better” than another. It’s reminds me a lot from reading Harry Potter and how many “Pure” blooded wizard families thought they were better than those of “Mixed Blood” You still see a lot of that still going on today but in the end the good and true always persevere.
Wonderfully captured, Mellon. Love the intricate details.
All the best
YES!! Another middle earth lore video!!! Thank you sir !!!! God bless and stay healthy!!! 😃👍🏼
“Wanted the blood of Numenor to remain pure.”
Now I don’t like where this is going.
Neither did Eldacar.
Yikes
I find it interesting that many of the artwork depicts gondorian armor as byzantine. It's an interesting take on Gondor
Gondor is based on the Byzantines so it makes a lot of sense.
Hey Yoystan, because of your channel i read the Lord of the rings and the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion became my favourite piece of fiction of all time. Thank you so much for making me intrigued and curious about the legendarium!!!!!
Glad to hear it, my friend! Cheers!
Men of the West is the only channel i subscribe in youtube, honestly. I love listening to it every night before i go to sleep.
J.R.R. Tolkien is one of a kind, like, the rare kind.
Some day we'll listen to him telling his tales in the next life, hopefully.
Definitely my favorite channel that has to do with LoTR such amazing storytelling
Nice summary! The Kin-strife is fascinating, we have made several songs about it, as there is few depictions of this period out there.
You sneaky devil! I just realized that at the end of each of your entertaining videos is a pertinent life lesson which centers on the tale of the video - are you trying to both entertain AND educate us at the same time'...? Truly, one of the best channels on all of TH-cam. I thank you for all that you do, no matter how surreptitiously done.
Your videos take a paragraph or two from Tolkien and turn them into an interesting saga; and we can always trust that they're accurate and true to the original lore. Thank you for continuing to make this world more alive!
You do a great job with all of these videos! I just love learning about all of these characters and places.
Great video, I learned a few new things which I dont often come across anymore. For a video idea, could you do a video/series about the magic of Middle-Earth?
Thanks Daniel, glad to hear it! I actually made a video on the use of magic in Tolkien's works a few years ago! Enjoy!
th-cam.com/video/HG3xX6QTwGE/w-d-xo.html
@@MenoftheWest Thank you so much for the link!
man, i can hardly put in words what a great job you are doing for tolkiens work. i often find myself in the internet within tolkienfans, who are trying to interpret his world in a right-wing way, polluting tolkiens masterpiece about peace, friendship, honor, and the right to live for everyone, with their ideology. i'm far away to say that tolkien was a leftist, but he sure didn't want his stories be compared to the idea that different races have different ranks. but you really understand the thoroughly positive message of tolkien, as from the "loyal men of rovanion, we see that no matter where one comes from, greatness and good deeds may always be achieved by any with the willing heart to do so" and "that acceptance, alliance and love should always overcome prejudice".
wonderful said!!
your videos are a treat and I look forward to enjoying them on my car rides.
Great video yoystan and I’d also like to add from the kin strife of Gondor we also see how pride and prejudice of maintaining superiority or a family name or line, can destroy that family rather that repair it just as those who supported castamir who later saw him as an arrogant and cruel king!
Thank you so much for this truly amazing and beautiful content. You help me in my darkest days. I think I'm going to call my kid after you, Yosten.
I am so honoured to hear it, and to help where I can. Thank you, my friend
Good video on the kin strife, although it was a sad time for Gondor, I bet Sauron was laughing at the plight of the gondorians
Such good life lessons learned in your tellings. Second only to one: The Sword of Truth epic!!! Eager for all your upcoming videos. Great work!
Thank you for bringing light to this very interesting story!
love learning more about LOTR and Tolkein's world through your videos
I'm a big fan,can you cover the history of the numenorions please?
I completely forgot there was a Gondorian Civil War. This was really interesting so thanks for making it mellonin! Btw could you possibly make a video on the Great Plague (it would be appropriate for these times hehe)?
Thank you for the support, my friend! I think I will make that video when we get closer to the end of our own pandemic, I don't want to take advantage of a bad situation.
@@MenoftheWest You're welcome! Yeah, that's a good idea about the pandemic.
Great video! It was very informative.
I just wanted to tell you This is the favorite of all the channels I watch. I was wondering if you have hey segment covering all the famous or mythical weapons of middle earth. I asked this since I am forging a sword of my own, My new hobby during these trying times. Keep up the good work, This is a truly great channel.
Yoystan! Great Video. The Kin-strife laid out succinctly and understandably!
What if Arnor triumphed as Gondor fell? how different would that be in middle earth?
I feel like it’d be basically the same thing as in the original timeline just in reverse but instead the blood of numenor was stronger, and the people of Arnor would make strong alliances with the dwarves of the blue mountains and the elves of Rivendell and the grey havens. That’s just my personal opinion.
I think Rohan would fall sooner. Saruman and the Balrog would be harder to kill and Lorien would be in jeopardy of Mordor and the Black Numenoreans.
@dreaming of electric sheep if Arnor survived it would mean the Palantiri would remain in Arnors hands. The main battle would be the Gap of Rohan. Control of the gap would be control of the South. Mt Gundabad would probably fall to the elves or more likely the Dwarves and remake the Legendary awakening spot of the 7 father's of Dwarves. Rivendell and Lothlorien would endure but passed the Fangorn Forest would be lost to Mordor. Attack from the sea would be the new wrinkle in the Third age as naval might would be more important.
Much different results if changed but all this is just speculation. Interesting to discuss though.
I also find it likely that the west might have more of a disadvantage, as gondor being in ruin gives sauron's allies the ability to rally together without being hindered greatly by the land. the Black Numenoreans would also likely rise to new heights of power, with their numenorean brothers in gondor as slaves for keeping their blood more pure.
@dreaming of electric sheep without the Darkness of Mordor looming in the east, I wonder how Arnor would have flourished with mostly safe ring of mountains and sea for protection. Organized attacks could come over the Misty mountains for surprise attacks or down the Anduin to attack Rohan and potentially Isengard. With the Gap more strategic, I wonder if Saruman would be in Isengard or somewhere else. Maybe the Argonoth overlooking Rauros to Mordor? I don't know, the Brandywine river becomes more important and the old forest would potentially be more important too.
I always wondered, in my adult life, if there was ever infighting within the kingdoms of men and elves in the legendarium. The mainline story maked it seem like there was no other strife without involvement of the orcs to my young, naïve eyes. I am very happy I found this channel.
Woot been waiting for this one
WOW...I knew next to nothing about this topic. I now know what happened to the Master Stone! Thanks you :D
You Know how I said last week, "Gondor: Civil War" I forgot to add, "Coming to the Cinemas near you" but it's not at the movies, it will be soon on TH-cam!!! Thanks, Mellon for talking out a Civil War (in Middle Earth Not Marvel) we don't know about...
Until a Livestream, Yes, Yes, *disappointed* Oh Man...I can't make it I will have to be up 3 hours earlier to make it...
But: *I don't have any questions to ask you for it (not yet)* Until post the Livestream...Marion Baggins Out!!!
I really wish that the importance of this story was played up more in Tolkien's works, as it so greatly runs counter to the perception that his ideas are based on racialism and ancestral superiority.
When you look closer, you often find that there are a lot of loopholes in the doctrine that "Blood Never Lies," as Tolkien interprets it. Here, for example, we have a story of how an exaggerated obsession with "purity" actually served the forces of evil (a conflict subtly foreshadowing JK Rowling's ideas about "purebloods," I think). In the fall of Numenor, we have a tale in which the main, royal house of an established bloodline gets corrupted, and the "cadet" branch saves their entire people. And the whole family was descended from people of mixed species: that is the lesson that Castamir forgot.
The “rightful” lineage ends up corrupted as well as most of the Númenórean population as a result of their hubris. And when Gondor falls prey to the same ideals, devastation repeats itself.
It’s honestly poetic.
Always love your videos. Even if I watch them late
This story proves Tolkien wasn't racist. For some reason people think he was racist because they think the Easterlings in his stories are meant to represent minorities. This story is about how your race doesn't define you, its your actions. Castamir, even though he was full blooded, was an inferior king to Eldacar, who is mixed.
I don't think this story has anything to do with Tolkien being a racist or not.
He was mixed within the "western europeans" of middle earth though, it would be more like a mixture of Visigoths and Celts as far as I understand. By the way I'm totally fine with that, in todays world it is racist if you respect and recognise your european heritage, so of course Tolkien would, sadly, be called a racist in this context.
dont try to bring your dumb poilitics into this
@@r.k9441 He's not. If anything hes attacking people who bring their dumb politics into it. The far right who claim tolkien was like them when he hated their ideology. The far left who call tolkien racist when they are either lying or just a bunch of morons. Unlimited Perseverance is just telling it as it is.
I believe the "race issue" never crossed Tolkien's mind, so such a meaning might not have been his intention. Now that I think about, isn't that how we should all treat race?
An absolute great video, well done!
Yoystan your channel & videos are brillant !. Love watching
Hey I am a big fan with a big question. Is there lore behind minis tirith or helms deep? If so, can you please cover it?
Hey, thanks for the support! For those questions, please check out my Helm's Deep - Region Spotlight and History of Gondor - Regions Spotlights!
@@MenoftheWest thank you! Keep up with the videos!
@@kingofmordor2002 Are you sure you're not gathering intel for an invasion of Gondor? ;)
@@TealWolf26 ...Shhh no one has to know 😂
Can you please talk about the Wainrider & Balchoth, you've already done the Angmar War and I personally always enjoyed the war between Gondor and the Easterlings
One really needs a cheat sheet for these Fancy Tolkien names.
When I hear of civil war, I hear the song Brother My Brother from the 1st Pokemon movie in my head .🎶
I have to say, that wiser words have seldom been spoken: "It is who we choose to be, not who we have been, or what we are expected to be that truly counts."
One has to wonder how things would be right now in our world would there just be more compassion, kindness, selflessness, bravery, and love for one another as fellow human beings. That said, it isn't too late to start moving in a better direction, and start being kinder to one another. Small acts of kindness go a long way in making the world a far better place.
*Hears the name Castamir*
Me a ASOIAF fan: oh no...
(and yes ik it’s spelled differently but it sounds the same)
The only reason their bloodline was somewhat Superior was because of the extended lifespan but after the war they pretty much screwed themselves because both sides were forced to basically intermingle with middlemen because they wiped out most of their population of numenorean blood
That's a good point. I see that stories like these in Tolkien's works show how, even those with extended life may cause great harm, or doing nothing with their gift. While others without such a gift can live good and mighty lives. Life, short or long, is what we make of it, it seems. That's one thing I take away to be a very Tolkienian lesson.
@@MenoftheWest do you really want to leader who outlives more than half his population
@@madambutterfly1997 Lol very good point!
@@MenoftheWest I tried figuring out that kind of scenario through a fanfiction I've been writing. Turns out my character of the ruler in question has in practice at the throne for more than 400 years but spends most of her time abroad to avoid the stagnation, leaving most of the governing and day-to-day Matters To Her counsel.
I wonder how many people also tend to forget the the lessening of their lifespans was also middle earth.
Keeping the bloodline pure was a serious thing in the past. The royals would often marry another royal to keep it that way, and they believed it would (correct me if i'm wrong) make their bloodlines far more superior than a commoner. The problem with this is that it made succesion question turn violent like like The Hundred Years war, and The War of Roses. Forgive me for my bad english, I'm from Norway
Nice work dude thanks
Keep up your vidoes dude you rock
I got an interesting what-if:
What if Drogo Baggins and his wife hadn't drowned in the Brandywine, or what if Frodo was sent to his kin of the Brandybucks instead of to Bilbo?
Man, that would be a possibly more awesome story line. If Sam were the protagonist in the rings trilogy. So many variables. Can't remember exactly what was said about him but other than Tom he was able to fairly easily weather the influence of the ring.
That is honestly a good question.
@@jim1550 "As it drew near the great furnaces where, in the deeps of time, it had been shaped and forged, the Ring's power grew, and it became more fell, untameable except by some mighty will. As Sam stood there, even though the Ring was not on him but hanging by its chain about his neck, he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself, a vast and ominous threat halted upon the walls of Mordor. He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be.
In that hour of trial it was his love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command.
'And anyway all these notions are only a trick, he said to himself." This shows that while indeed Sam showed great resistance to it's power, he was not unaffected, and if in a theoretical change of scenario Sam had never met and bonded with Frodo he might have been more vulnerable, the variables would really change some events if Frodo never met Sam for example in the end Sam is quite a bit like a protagonist of the story as well as it is now :).
@@jim1550 hmm so who is Sam's Sam?
The Kinstrife was destructive but considering how long Gondor went without one not bad. Haha.
If many of the peoples near the coast were on castamir's side, does that means the ancestors of the princes of dol amroth sided with castamir? Seeing as the Swan-knights have pure numenorean blood.
That is a great question Hailey, and I would imagine that to be the case. They may have sided otherwise, as the lineage of the Prince may have had some Elvish blood in it, making them possibly more agreeable to the King of Gondor, but I could see them siding with Castamir, especially for the reason you stated.
Bit if they sided with Castamir, then why didnt they leave Gondor when he died? If they fight for Castamir, after his defeat they would have fleed to Umbar instead of staying in Gondor, thus the House of Prince Imrahil wouldnt rule Dol Amroth during the War of the Ring.
@@alvaroavilablanco3350 It's entirely possible that some of them did. Rarely are groups of people of the same mind. Unless there were great purges and exoduses of "sympathizers and traitors," there could have been mixed support for each side. I do find it interesting that there was a prince while a steward sat in the capitol. Maybe that says something as to the relationship between the two.
I know one thing to be true. Either side of the war had one hope, that a seriously buff warrior named Yoystan that would either bring them to victory or roll over them. No doubt this is you, as I can only think of you as quite buff, and truly, we all fall under your feet. I fall however on purpose with joy
Wow. To be honest I forgot this happenned, thanks for the reminder.
Please do a what-if Saruman was able to get The one ring in the ANDUIN RIVER
He has already made a video what if saruman claimed the one ring
As a Man of the West this Man needs more likes on vids can we please make it happen?!?
It's because of the lessening of numenorean blood that Aragorn would die within his early 200s where the house of the King was capable of living for 500 years
Hasan Wilson : Elros, the first King of Numenor, lived for 500 years because he was half Elven. The lifespan of the Kings of Numenor slowly diminished because they had less Elven blood. E.g. the son of Elros would be 1 quarter Elf, his grandson would be 1/8th Elf, his great grandson would be 1/16th Elf, and so on.
@@timonsolus be that as it may the lifespan of the Kings was still a century or two longer than the populace of the rest of the numenoreans
@@timonsolus The lifespan of the kings of Numenor remained very stable (arround 400 years) until the rule of Tar-Ciryatan (1500 years after the death of Elros). The decline seems to be linked with the growing corruption of the Numenorians, and not with elf-blood.
1st to support the True King!
Awe u beat me
YAYYY another video
And I just finished reading the Hobbit sooooo DOUBLE YAYYY
Well that was quick thx for ❤ my comment you are now on my list of my top 5 favorite TH-camrs
I think it would be interesting if you did a what if Gandalf was able to redeem Saruman timeline
this is a great channel!
A very extremely great video as always Men of the West.
underrated tube man
Thanks for hearting my comment! It means a lot! ❤️
So...nobody ever anchored a boat over the ruin of the Osgiliath Bridge and took a dive or two to find the Master Palantir? It's almost certainly buried under some pretty white masonry somewhere down there. How many other priceless artifacts does the Anduin shelter under its waters?
Yeah, I never understood that. The master palantir was huge. Surely it was buried in the river bed right beneath the ledge that it fell from.
Thanks again.
Are you planning on doing another theory video soon? Those are my favorite.
"I was there the day the strength of men failed"
Oooofffff honestly this vid helped alot; I always got confused when reading about the many many many (sigh) many kings of men lol
If theres one thing that all the free peoples have in common uts that they will either fight with each other or among themselves.
Sounds eerily familiar 😏
CONTENT I LOVE IT
Good for Gondor the civil war didn't collapse their kingdom, bad for Arnor civil war indeed the main source of their fall
You should make videos about Tolkien’s influences. Like how the Gondorians are based on the Byzantines.
Good video! Love ya!
Omg u hearted my comment!!!!
Video idea:
What if Numenor never sank?
#castamirdidnothingwrong
2nd to support the true king!
Take it you have discovered Mount and Blade: Warband my friend!
My man put a Mout and Blade Warband loading screen in here lol
Does anyone know who the artist is at 0:58 ?
Cool
Sounds somewhat like game of thrones if slightly smaller in scale
Ugh, men and their ego. smh.
Great video as always
Oh, Hell yes!
I understand why Tolkien wouldn’t finish the 4th age, a fantasy fiction with nothing but men is barely a fantasy, but it would sound fascinating, nonetheless
I'm being pedantic here, but.... Roma-da-sil, surely?
Only in Quenya is the C always a hard Cuh sound.
I always pronounced it Romenda "seal" myself. I was never 100% on when hard C was supposed to be used.
@@TealWolf26 I'm sure at the beginning of a word in Sindarin it's a hard C. Hence Celeborn not Seleborn
@@Ravenesque Sounds right.
The kings of Gondor all took names and even titles in Quenya, to elevate themselves and their deeds even further. Much like rulers during medieval coronations and in the chronicles being addressed by latin equivalents of their names and the title Rex.
It's a status thing that peasants such as us eat up because we think it's so legit.
I always thought it was the morality of the Dunedine that lengthened their lives not the mingling of their blood... because their lives were shortened in Numenor when they abandoned the Valar
If I was a soldier of Gondor, I actually think I would side with Castamir if not for his cruelty: because he had more Numenorean blood.
It seems to me he should perhaps have been the rightful king, perhaps the line of kings may not have failed
The thing about Castamir is that he was cruel and didn't care for the people, only for the fleet.
Reminds me of race issues that continue to plague us today. It will probably never go away completely. Unfortunately
You can play the Kin-strife as a turn-based game: www.middleearthgames.com
I always show this story, to those who acuse Tolkien of racism.
can you do what will happen if isildur/ elendil/gil-galad never died? or if balin expedition never failed.
Men of the west has returned to the white tower once more
Castamir did nothing wrong.
Castamir should have won.