Thanks to each one of you that decided to click on this video! I hope you found it as fascinating as I did, when writing the script! If you liked this video and the previous one, rest assured! There's a lot more like it coming (along with regular lore videos!). Cheers and have a great day! 🧙♂
War is part of a cycle of all those who exist, rather it be from a singular creature hunting its prey, to the aspect of society coveting one another lands or material gains, for humans, the concept of what is good and evil exist in the perpetual minds of one individual, but does not exist in the singularity expect of nature. Chaotic brings forth the emotion perceived of good, as goodness brings forth the chaotic madness that is to be, such is the way of life, and with a cursed boon, a gift of emotions is rewarded, for if mankind did not know the concept of good and evil, emotions would cease to exist. The world is fair and unforgiving, ruthless yet gentle, it cannot be easily comprehended nor can it be tamed, and all who lives under its vast glory or darkness, must abide by it.
@whyukraine As much hatred as I have for the enemy, I have to remind myself that evil is created in this world, not born. Like the corruption Tolkien describes, if all you've heard for the past ten years is "holhols bad, holholstan must be destroyed" along with the repression of all dissent, even throwing Girkin in jail FFS, it creates an atmosphere where such behavior we see from the enemy is inevitable. You could definitely compare Vova and his Barbie doll Simonyan to Sauron or Morgoth. When you look past the enemy himself and see what created him, you do end up feeling some empathy
The similarities goes even futher, Lord Sauron=Putin, backwater russia = Mordor, yevgeny = Saruman that swears alliance to Sauron and creates his legion of Uruk hays= Wagner group and Ancient (soviet) war machines brought forth from under the Mountains. Etc etc
So many of Tolkien’s villainous characters are continually offered chances to mend their ways and come back to the light. Denethor, Saruman, Wormtongue, Bill Ferny. Even the Mouth of Sauron is offered terms. And they continually choose - of their own will - to stay on their darker path. Sauron and his orc slaves in Mordor are the inevitable end point of this, when you are so astray you cannot go back. They choose to be fallen, wittingly or not. Great vid.
Indeed. It is pride, the Miltonian Satan type of pride. The act of repenting is seen as debasement, as beneath them, but I think with some of them like Wormtongue and even Saruman there is shame, a shame that acknowledges what they've really become, and a fear of enduring humiliation and hurt at the hands of those they've hurt. They can't believe that people really will (eventually) welcome them back. That's the tragedy of their pride. That even those glimmers of doubt and wanting to redeem themselves they push back, they simply do not see how things can be set right so better to be in charge of being in Hell.
Take Denethor out of your list, he was a good man! He used the Palantir to the benefit of his people, he repaired and reinforced the Rammas Echor and only fell to despair in the last moments, they depicted him unfairly in the movies.
It actually reminds me of the conversation between Achilles and Priam. I only recall the movie dialogue: Achilles : You're still my enemy in the morning. Priam : You're still my enemy tonight. But even enemies can show respect.
@@CounciloftheRings There's a great example from the lay of Horatius too, after our hero hurls himself into the Tiber to escape the Tuscan army after holding the bridge against various champions long enough for the Romans to demolish it: No sound of joy or sorrow Was heard from either bank, But friends and foes in dumb surprise, With parted lips and straining eyes, Stood gazing where he sank; And when above the surges They saw his crest appear, All Rome sent forth a rapturous cry, And even the ranks of Tuscany Could scarce forbear to cheer.
Here I am, opening TH-cam for some light entertainment - and I get taken on a incredibly deep, stringent, beautifully constructed and structured self-reflective journey. Dear sir, your videos are true gems!
that quote from Tolkien about how real war "men fight on both sides" in a motely alliance with "orcs, beasts, demons, men and angels" is the most profound quote about people who fight in wars. In war those are the different kinds of soldiers you encounter. The man: simply tries to do his best and survive and get home. the Beast: does not think for himself, obeys orders blindly and kills on command; like an animal. The Orc: the soldier who steals, loots pillages, rapes and tortures gleefully taking the opportunity to get away with that which under normal social rules they could never get away with. The Demon: fueled above all by hate, desires above all else to destroy his enemies, despises that quarter must be given to the enemy and given the opportunity will kill any and all the enemy, regardless of age, sex or status as a legit combatant. The Angel: while a fighter does not take life when not required to do so, shows pity, mercy and comfort even to the enemy. Even at risk to their own life and even when this might mean being alienated by his own comrades and risking their wrath.
Thanks a lot! There's a lot more coming! I might wait a little with some of the planned ones as I don't want to repeat myself too much, but there's some new stuff coming soon and a few more lore videos; continuing the 'creatures of middle-earth' series 😁
I once told men that "When you all go home I want you to go home as soldiers, not as killers. If something is wrong at home then it is wrong here as well, we will all be filled with anger and hatred, but try to remember that not all of them volunteered for this like we do and what we do against them we will always carry with us when we leave this place and time. Do not show mercy for them, but rather show yourself mercy so that you will not dislike the man you will be in the future."
Fantastic video. I love that you are diving into the more philosophical aspects of Tolkien. His collection of letters have dominated my Tolkien reading the last couple of years as I suppose with age my interest in these deeper aspects have developed and matured. There is a large internet football forum I peruse from time to time and they have a thread on the war in Ukraine. They call Russians orcs of course which is semi-official propaganda, and members share videos of some poor young conscript running away in fear from a suicide drone attack, whilst the forum members hoot and holler as the "orc" is killed by the infernal flying machine. Orcs indeed. Thank you again and looking forward to more videos diving into these deeper aspects and how you connect it to the Middle Earth lore.
Thanks! There are indeed many fascinating aspects of Tolkien’s world to dive into. Sounds terrible with people hooting for death. I guess the orc can be found in us all, except those that are able to resist the corruption of evil. I’m afraid there’s no end to it, but speaking up is better than being silent. Anyway, thanks for commenting! There’s another video coming divining into war and if Tolkien glorifies it through his stories (a ‘common’ criticism of his works). Cheers 🧙♂️
No, Tolkien does not glorify war. What. But he does show that people with wisdom or strength to defend their loved ones are laudable. Aragorn, Faramir, Eowyn… the fact that the War of the Ring would result in the heroes ultimate destruction is not a narrative that would appear if the war was, in and of itself, worthwhile. And then the Scouring of the Shire also shows that conflict and small scale war is brutish and sad. Perhaps necessary, but never good.
@ВладиславВладислав-и4ю That is crazy. Tolkien clearly tells us that Orcs are purely evil and maybe even irredeemable. Why would someone be interested in the perspective of a sociopath?
The kabbalistic view of evil is that you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs and that something had to break (the "shattering of the vessels") for the universe to be created.
Thank you. Yes the older i get the more i understand Tolkien more and more. And about orcy and the similarity how people can become haunts me for quite a while. No wonder i got sad reading his books, when i did it the first time. I did not understand it yet. It was just that deep truth about the world that is hidden in his books.
And, funnily enough, does include all the grey areas many people claim his stories lack. Tolkien was not naive, he looked at the world with hope. Big difference.
It is very telling about his inspiration that Tolkien used "orc" as an insult for real people who act wrong multiple times in his letters. What stuck with me the most was Letter 71 about how (humans behaving like) orcs are fighting in WII on all sides, but also how they differentiate them: "Yes, I think the orcs as real a creation as anything in 'realistic' fiction: your vigorous words well describe the tribe; only in real life they are on both sides, of course. [...] In real (exterior) life men are on both sides: which means a motley alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, plain naturally honest men, and angels. But it does make some difference who are your captains and whether they are orc-like per se! And what it is all about (or thought to be)." And even then, Tolkien didn't think of orcs as wholly evil creatures without rights - just like the most evil humans retain certain rights and value, whatever they have done.
Beautiful. Thank you. Any future film/show maker should be required to watch this video and study Tolkien’s vision of reality, especially of good and evil. We criticize ROP for messing with the Tolkien’s lore, which is legitimate, but I think it is even worse that they mess with his underlying worldview.
Great point. TRoP did not clearly differentiate between good and evil. I think they did this on purpose just to virtue-signal that they were good little Marxists. Was King Durin evil? He should not have been but ended up being evil so he could have his redemption-Kamikaze moment. Galadriel was clearly evil at times. Almost everything she did was to show us that "the ends justify the means." Payne and McKay want to teach us that doing a little evil is sometimes necessary to accomplish a greater good. In other words, they wove in their woke ideology. They showed us a loving Orc family. They had Daddy deservingly killed. Was he a good guy to his family and evil to non-Orcs?
@@altechelghanforever9906 because Tolkien, being a Christian, did not believe in absolute evil. He even wrote in his letters that the orcs were not completely evil or irredeemable, and that without Sauron and Melkor they would have drawn closer to Eru. Glug and Adar show small glimpses of this possible redemption, but overall the orcs remain ruthless, cruel, enslaving monsters. And with Adar dead, there is no longer any chance for them. Orcs are like the worst of the humans. Nazis were complete monsters, still they were able of caring.
I have a couple of Tolkien channels in my subscriptions and have been scrupulously avoiding adding another because I don't want my entire feed to be Tolkien. However, I just subscribed to your channel because video was just that good.
Any time! If you are ever in need of someone to talk to feel free to reach out to me on e-mail or join the Discord 🙏 Take care and Merry Christmas when you get that far 🎄⛄
Yes, more please!! You are putting into words what I cannot concerning Tolkien's philosophies. I've dealt with a guy who was en route to becoming a Tolkien scholar, then dropped it and him upon finding a couple of sentences from Tolkien's letters he deemed racist. And he completely jumped on the "Tolkien is fascist" band wagon. He wanted me, and others, to be free of the "prison of Tolkien fandom", ironic considering Tolkien's views. I tried my best to argue, but I failed miserably. This has been quite a balm for that as I know someone can say things about Tolkien far better than I ever could. A great many thanks! #ForTolkien
Thanks! Truly 🙏 These comments mean a lot when the algorithm isn’t helping with the views 😁 There’s sadly a lot of ‘name-callers’ that wants to cancel a lot of people. It’s best to ignore them, as they won’t change their mind 🤷♂️
I find it most subversive the way people calling themselves Tolkien's fans use the word "orcism" or its idea, as analogy to "racism", and pretend that that's a flaw of Peter Jackson's movies or a white supremacist trope. You can see the clear intention of spreading the fanatical ideology of progressivism, with its emphasis on "diversity" and all the package that comes with it. Truly twisted people that must be recovered somehow.
Magnificent! Very stimulating and shows just what an incredible world and stories Tolkien created. Really well put together, your channel is amazing, keep it up. Am ready for more philosophical thought pieces like this one!
Absolutely amazing video! The philosophy of Tolkien, and how that is so well translated into his stories, is what makes his stories on such a higher level than any other works of fantasy, in my opinion. The following is completely subjective, but when I read Stephen King, I feel horrified. When I read H.P. Lovecraft, I feel intrigued and confused. When I watched (because I haven't read) Game of Thrones, I felt depressed. But when I read Lord of the Rings, or these incredible Tolkien-related videos, I am so uplifted, even if only slightly on bad days. It is my dream to be a published author and creator of a mythos like Tolkien's. But I have so much to learn, and have so much growing to do for I am a mere nascent child compared to the great authors I listed above. But Tolkien is one of my greatest inspirations, so being able to watch masterfully crafted videos like this one that help me understand Tolkien's philosophy is such a gift, thank you!
@@theloremaster792 Thanks! I can recommend you to read "King, warrior, magician, lover" by Robert Moore & Douglas Gillette, as well. It's great for masculine archetypes.
A fascinating Deep dive into the nature of "evil" in the world of Tolkien. Great work sir! sounds like the writers of the Rings of power. Evil lacking substance, willfully choosing to defame and pervert rather than seeking to create something new and beautiful.
To be noted: in wars, a propensity for violence, destruction and - in lack of a better term - evil deeds, is actually quite useful, and makes for better warriors that won't hesitate to kill to save themselves, their brothers-in-arms or the cause they are fighting for. In other words, if say the elves were so good that they were unable to visit violence upon their enemies, they would have lost everything. But instead, they use all their might to maim and kill the orcs - a good thing by evil means.
The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. Alexander Solzhenitsyn Gulag Archipelago
Fantastic discussion! This is the kind of nuance people like the writers of RoP will never appreciate, so they think they can do better. I love that you described the orcs as victims of evil as much as its agents, and I find orcs almost incapable of goodness thanks to Morgoth's corruption to be far more pitiable than those who have loving families and still grow up to be horrible violent monsters. I imagine that just as Morgoth poured his malice and corruption into the fabric of the world, he poured it in far greater concentration into the first orcs, imbuing them with a hatred for all light and goodness. We know orcs had agency and hated their masters, obeying only out of fear, but they never express any desires of their own not related to war, plunder and violence, because that is all they know.
WW1 was far more gentlemanly in conduct than this video tries to make a parallel of. Mass industrial slaughter may be the work of modern war, but the men of the trenches were no Einsatzgruppen or Commissars. Anyway it's a thoughtful and thought-provoking video, which is most important. I have to thank you just for using the artwork at 4:48, I've never seen it before and it's beautiful.
@@ianwilliams2632 Although some puff out of touch rich people might have stayed sentimental, no one who’d been in the trenches for even a day would think that. So I have no idea where you’re coming from with this “gentlemanly” war.
Far as I can tell Orcs are incapable of good whereas man is capable of good and evil for me that is the only distance between us and Orcs that we need.
This is a superb video, one of the best I have ever seen. I have thought about the nature of Orcs a fair amount but I have not previously seen it distilled so effectively down to its essence; that Orcs are what you get when you remove everything that is good and decent from people. And I agree that we all have a darker side and are capable of Orcish behavior. I think that in theory Orcs are redeemable but that in the "reality" of Arda that wasn't going to happen. Their entire history was one of cruelty and brutality, both on the receiving and giving ends. And even once Sauron was gone and there were no more Dark Lords, they still lived in a world where the taint of Morgoth's attempt to corrupt it was still present. In the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag, it's clear they have no desire to escape and go live in peace somewhere; they simply want to be free of Sauron's control. As the centuries of the 4th Age unfolded, the extraordinarily violent nature of Orcs would have been their undoing as they were confronted with the increasing domination of the world by Men. To put it in evolutionary terms, they would have been outcompeted by Men and ultimately died out. I am reminded of a theory I ran across some years ago that suggested that the origins of law in human societies was to deal with the most violent among us; those who could not live peacefully with their fellows. Similarly, Orcs would not have been able to live peacefully near Men or even with each other. There was a comment in your video regarding whether or not humans have always been a violent species. From what I've read over the years, there is ample evidence of human-on-human violence dating back even before we first established permanent settlements. And while I have forgotten the details, I have read about a study that said that if you analyze our evolutionary family tree, we come from a line that includes many species known for high levels of violence against their own kind.
Excellent comment! You raise a lot of interesting ang good points. I don’t think orcs as a group were redeemable, either, but perhaps a few individuals were? We don’t have any examples, but I guess the snaga (basically slaves), might be the best bet. Not that they were exactly ‘good’, but perhaps Eru was able to forgive them? Who knows! And yeah I think you are right. Humans have been violent since the dawn of time. I don’t think everyone has some orc within them, but there certainly are some. It’s just rarely the deeds of angels and good honest plain Men, that gets the attention of the medias these days ☺️
But does this answer the greatest question of them all, what was Aragorn's tax policy? 🤔 For real though, great video, I've seen some people say that in the lord of thr rings making one side good and the other side evil made the story boring for them because you can't really sympathise with the orcs, of course I always disagreed with that notion and i think this video hits all the spots in explaining why the orcs are like what they are in the story and what they represent.
Great video. Orcs are fantastic as a species, a reasonable read of what humanity can be at its very worst. Such a hopeful thought by Tolkien that not even such as they are irredeemable. I hope the same is true for the orcs in real life.
Platoon also has a ring to one of his friends from the battle at the Somme in his newest Video. I think if I remember well the one about ep.1 season 2. Never has been the wisdom of J.R.R.Tolkien and his son Christiophet be so present to me everday I watch the news . And to know that there is a light where no other light can shine
Faramir is the ultimate warrior, not because he loves war, glory or fame, but because he recognizes the horror of it while also acknowledging its necessity for peace. It's why I absolutely HATE what Jackson did to him in the movies.
This was not just great quality, but so well done all around and I am not even embarrassed to admit that I teared up a bit while watching. So nicely done! Hope to see more similar things soon. It truly is sad how every day especially on social media we will see crowds cheer at suffering of others with not even a slight expression of pity. I liked it how you included Sam’s quote about the wars of Men, for that quote goes through my mind too when I sometimes see those crowds cheer over cruelties on social media, while in reality most of the time it is not an expression of justice or reaction born of compassion, but a simple sadistic pleasure. I enjoyed many of your videos, but this one I think so far is best
Thank you so much! Yes I totally agree that we see a lot of awful stuff on Social media almost daily now. It’s truly sad. Glad you enjoyed the video! 🙏❤️
What I love about Tolkien is that while he was a Catholic and his sub-created world was based in that view, it reflects the profundity of the mystics and high philosophers of this form of Western religion and the basis of most of the non-dual traditions of the East. Eru is the One. Everything else exists in the mind of Eru, even Melkor, that, "whose works will only add to the greater glory of the song." Melkor is the psychological principal of power, and Sauron the principal of order. These are a part of all of us, but become shadows and archons when driven by desire, individualism, fear, envy, etc, etc. But the destruction that unintegrated shadows, in individuals and societies, bring only adds to the advancement of the good.
Fantastic essay of literary criticism and so gives weight to the idiocy of the TV show trying to make family men of orcs. No clearer sign that the people in charge don’t understand Tolkien at all
I think anyone, no matter how twisted, can be redeemed, they just have to want to be better, and act on it... but if someone doesn't want to be better, doesn't have any doubts about their actions and doesn't feel remorse for the people they've hurt, they can't be redeemed -- people redeem themselves through right thought and right action.
@@yttamhtims Yes, though the phrasing is fantastical, that's essentially the truth; middle earth, ww2 or today. If you are living to fulfil the vision of a powerful person and are justifying harm you cause and pushing down any remorse, you're on a dark path and can't be saved by a third party. You have to break free from their influence first.
Since the moral culpability of the orcs is reduced by their enslavement to the point of being nigh non existent, I think that in the afterlife they'll be shown much mercy, at least among those who did not willingly become orcs.
As sinful creatures ourselves, we have but to look into the Book of Revelation, where Tolkien's description of the "orc" within us can be seen through those who reject Christ and wear the Mark of the Beast, those whose names God never had in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. (Holy Bible, Book of Revelation 17:8)
I like that Tolkien strayed away from the creation of souls/spirits and left it at the idea of them always existing, intrinsically linked to the existence of Eru. If I were to take a shot at whether the orcs could be redeemed after Sauron's fall, I would say "No" for two reasons: First, the idea that they are so totally corrupted that, as you stated, their free will has been twisted into an ever-present desire for self gratification. This mirrors Romans 1:24. And second, with the purging of Sauron and Morgoth from Middle Earth, this is akin to, in my view, the return of Christ, where there is no more perversion, corruption, or evil things. Thus, after the Dark Lord's defeat, no more orcs are created, and they slowly go extinct, leaving the question of their salvation ultimately irrelevant.
As someone who wants wars to be avoided at all costs, this is one of the reasons I like games like Total War, LOTR games etc, that let me channel these internal impulses (or culturally imposed male drives) for battlefield glory in a video game, rather than seek it IRL myself or either by proxy, by expecting others to die for some conceived tribal benefit.
Even Tolkien written that orcs are capable of redemption. He hated the concept of absolute evil. I'm glad ROP is showing this side of his philosophy In a letter of 1954, 153 Tolkien wrote that orcs were "fundamentally a race of 'incarnate rational' creatures, though horribly corrupt, if not more so than many men one meets with today." "I almost wrote 'irredeemably evil'; but that would be going too far. For, by accepting or tolerating their conception 'necessary to their present existence,' even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's, and therefore ultimately good.) The orcs in the series are Tolkien's orcs, and Adar lays bare their ontological status by pointing out some passages present in The Lord of the Rings
I disagree and think the ROP went way too far in their ‘maybe they aren’t really that bad’ angle. The not so subtle suggestion in ROP that Orcs are fundamentally ‘good’ and would rather just live a simple life, does not sit right at all. In reading the entirety of letter 153, and as outlined so eloquently in this video, Orcs are fundamentally EVIL, and wholly corrupted, influenced and dominated by The Dark Lord (be that Morgoth or Sauron). They are a permanent physical incarnation of the worst of human nature. Possibly not beyond all redemption once whichever Dark Lord exerting their will over them is vanquished, but certainly not while Sauron is at the height of his powers and very much active in the world.
Since we’re talking about societal and philosophical themes in Tolkien’s work I’d be curious to see you cover the topic of female roles in his books. Obviously Tolkien came from a different time and might have held some outdated beliefs about women but I think many interpret him and his stories as being misogynistic which I strongly disagree with. There was one paper in particular covering Tolkien’s views on woman called “Flawed and Formidable: Galadriel, Éowyn, and Tolkien’s Inadvertent Feminism” which, although well researched and formatted, I think made many unfair presumptions about the man and took his words out of context on multiple occasions to prove his apparent misogyny. It’d be a fascinating topic to delve into if you’re ever looking for new topics to discuss.
Misogynist is bit far, but he was sexist. If we have to compare him with most of his contemporaries however, then he was quite the egalitarian (though I suspect Tolkien would dislike this characterization).
"The evil combustion engine" as he viewed it Ww1 was the first war where the human beings were made obsolete, the weakest part of armies. And it haunted our boy
I get the point, and understand that Tolkien was on the battlefield and had a first hand knowledge of war, but I have it that Morgoth used both his own magic and the power of all three Silmarils to transform Elves into orcs. It wasn't just about breeding ugly Elves. There was a spiritual transformation that he manufactured using the power of creation itself.
Distant? My stepfather taught me full well that orcs are common among us, they just wear similar-looking skin. Trauma both episodic and generational, breeds sociopathic and narcissistic coping traits that feed on and/or amplify some of our inborn male characteristics. Embarrassment and insecurity become a point of blame to cast fault away from ourselves and we invent the other, and we dehumanize them to avoid seeing in ourselves the embarrassment, the fault we blame on them, and in trying to reject this through casting it on others we become the very thing we try to avoid. Others wanting to avoid embarrassment help us create a web of excuses we hold up together and call "honor". What word was more uttered by the emperors whose insecure pride led to the world wars?
Like many mislead youth i too went out to fight the monsters for my country and became one.when i die will the devil greet me as an old friend with open arms and a warm smile.
Can we get an update on the kingdoms of Arda it's almost the end of 2024 and we're going into 2025 so just wondering what's going on are you guys still working on it just haven't heard anything
For orcs redemption I like to think of it from funnily enough a perspective of C.S Lewis. In short I believe that orcs spirits cannot be redeemed in thier corrupted bodies, or by the power of Men and Elves. But once freed from their corrupted and ruined forms that Eru, or the Valar can reedem their spirits. Then those that were meant to be elves can be rehoused in elven bodies and those that were meant to be Men can enjoy the afterlife Eru has for them.
@@JSFal I had it posted it uncensored and get my comment deleted enough times to use the censored word. I hope however you understand what this sort of mentality implies.
Orcs are applicable as Tolkien says. But you are meant to imagine the Orcs as real things, their own thing, that actually existed long ago. 'I'm entirely historically minded.' They're not an allegory representing some men and they are not meant to represent something within man. They're pure creatures of imagination that stand for themselves. An Orc is an Orc.
He gets them from the idea of Goblins etc in fairy tales. He imagines, what if they were real? He creates the orcs to satisfy that need, with no intention of allegory or psychodrama.
It is very strange, at how much fictional creatures we human imagine, and all of them are a reflection of humanity. We made the elf in our own image, an image of physical perfection and mentally perfection. We made the dwarf in our own image, an image of craftsman, smithing's and industrial capabilities. We made the Orc in our own image, an image of primary loose, letting loose of primary instinct, the aspect of us we consider as being suppress in a civilize era. We made the dragon in our own image, the image of if, if individual human as all powerfully entities inspiring fears in other instead of the often reverse. We made the hobbit in our own image, an image of a life after retirement preferably with our own small farms, community and the no longer need to interact with the oppress capital economic system, which is also made in our image, the historical image of unequal wealth accumulation. Hick even Skynet, is made in our image, and I don't the humanoid form, I mean the short slightness, the tendency of humanity that ignore all the goods thing the many nations project in history had done, selfishly out of their own compassion toward other people and natures. The many time many nations, kingdom, cities state tried to organize peaceful coexistence, the even harder mutual economic development, in the infinitely more difficult economic growth for all of the population without economic exploitation. Yet Skynet, just like humanity only know of it's failure, and how those attempts end up in failures and the aftermath which can result into wars, or experience wars or some other kind of misery ETC, it's only know of this, AND DESPITE IT"S VAST AMOUNT OF DATA, it's refuse to look at them, to see the entirety, just like humanities, refuse to look into it's past critically, and in it's entirety, and thus doom to repeat the same mistake over and over again. And By humanity, I mean the collective cultural assumptions in the West. Cause that is another thing, once you ops to ignores, to outcast the entirety of history, you also outcast the experience and opinions of peoples from other background in history. Italian romanticize about the glorious roman empire, ignores all the extraction and accumulations of wealth from three continents back into the roman empire, expective making the roman society flush with surplus materials, and capital, but drains all those continents and kingdoms, and tribes and cities state, absolutely dried, so naturally they experience famines, plagues and fall deep in debt, and the slavery. So the perspectives of a Roman citizens who benefits from the Empire is different from some Greek or Hellenic person in one of Rome territories. And then there are active class struggle with the Roman Society, average Roman does not have any political powers to stops the plunder and accumulations of wealth and capital in Rome, nor are there any resistance political groups until Christianity that are oppose to this plunder of all these continents and their people. The average Roman is also a worker, he who may benefits from cheaper grains, are still needed to works daily to make end meets, while all of the wealth accumulation when back to the Roman Elite, which made up of less than 1% of the populations of Italy, let alone Rome, privately owns as private property regions of the territories the Roman Empire conqueror, and thus charge rents and taxes on the working folks of Italian and local people who aren't enslaves. So now you have three perspective. A Roman worker, a worker within the Roman Empire not benefit from Rome wealth, but have to work to death for Rome to be Wealth, and the Roman Wealthy populations which benefits from all of this unequal exchanges. Now plush of these data to Skynet, and It's will ignore, all the struggle of the Donatist Christianity (The OG Christian) for the lofty of anti-oligarch anti-plutocracy, anti-war and anti-imperialism towards a fair and equality society, all lofty goals, but this lofty goals were fought for by massive populations of Italian and Colonizes people across the Empire, which was successful to a level. Now Plush all of this into Skynet databank, it's will only see the wars wages by the Roman Empire, and the Roman civil wars, BUT NOT the class struggle wars against the 1% Oligarch, it's not see the wars of these regions for independent against an oligarchic empire, it's will only understand that there are wars, equally as short sighted as modern western perceptions of history. We made entities that isn't real, fantasy without own imagine, the same way Slice of Life is an anime genre, it's escapism. It is easier to explains, analyzes and come to terms with history and reality if it is portrays by a fantasy setting, but all those fantasy setting contents, are all down to earth concept. In the Orc, we explains and come to terms and even resist our violent urges and primary rage, or in bad emotions in general. In that rings and that white goblin hobbit thing, we explains greed and fought against greed. In the Hobbit, we explains the underdogs fight and bravery. In the Elf and Dwarf, we explains the united forces of differences between cultures, ethnicities and the bonds of cooperation's. In the Galactic Empire, we explains Imperialism, Colonialism, Neo-Companies-Colonialism and the common folks only alternative to resisting tyranny is revolutions of the masses. In the Galactic Republic, we explains the conflict of interest in each of the political, social and economic sections and how the lack of all sides cooperation's would lead to nothing getting done, and the willingly given up power to powerful hungry groups with business interest, to take over, and do the works instead of democracy and democratic value. We can that much, but no way can we explains this with real life empire, even if all of these are just analogy of reality formations of governing and formations of society, political bodies and the many often at odd economic interests.
I love when you breakaway from rings of power to give your expert insight Discount Drinker! In all seriousness, this is good content. Great job. Its amazing what you can do when you dont focus on things that are negative (edit yes i actually liked the video)
There's something to be said here about Túrin Turambar, who spent most of his lifetime slaughtering Orcs as his shadow fell on him more and more. He had no choice, though. Morgoth and his armies brutalized Middle Earth more than Sauron ever had. There were never any terms of surrender or peace; just unending hordes of Orcs (and Glaurung) destroying everything and killing everyone. And thus, evil breeds more evil, even if the road to hell is paved with good intentions (and Orc skulls).
Theoretically yes. The valar even tried to reform him once but he persisted in his own corruption. I'm not sure what his existence is like in the void, whether he experiences space and time would his affect his ability to change if he ever wanted to.
Thanks to each one of you that decided to click on this video! I hope you found it as fascinating as I did, when writing the script! If you liked this video and the previous one, rest assured! There's a lot more like it coming (along with regular lore videos!). Cheers and have a great day! 🧙♂
I'm a simple orc, I see a CotR video and I click. ✨✨
War is part of a cycle of all those who exist, rather it be from a singular creature hunting its prey, to the aspect of society coveting one another lands or material gains, for humans, the concept of what is good and evil exist in the perpetual minds of one individual, but does not exist in the singularity expect of nature. Chaotic brings forth the emotion perceived of good, as goodness brings forth the chaotic madness that is to be, such is the way of life, and with a cursed boon, a gift of emotions is rewarded, for if mankind did not know the concept of good and evil, emotions would cease to exist. The world is fair and unforgiving, ruthless yet gentle, it cannot be easily comprehended nor can it be tamed, and all who lives under its vast glory or darkness, must abide by it.
Its uncanny to watch Ukrainian war footage and notice how often they use Orc as an insult on the battlefield.
Its because we fight orcs every day. russian society churns them out.
@whyukraine
As much hatred as I have for the enemy, I have to remind myself that evil is created in this world, not born. Like the corruption Tolkien describes, if all you've heard for the past ten years is "holhols bad, holholstan must be destroyed" along with the repression of all dissent, even throwing Girkin in jail FFS, it creates an atmosphere where such behavior we see from the enemy is inevitable.
You could definitely compare Vova and his Barbie doll Simonyan to Sauron or Morgoth.
When you look past the enemy himself and see what created him, you do end up feeling some empathy
The similarities goes even futher, Lord Sauron=Putin, backwater russia = Mordor, yevgeny = Saruman that swears alliance to Sauron and creates his legion of Uruk hays= Wagner group and Ancient (soviet) war machines brought forth from under the Mountains. Etc etc
@@whyukraine Are you actually from Ukraine, or just the Midwest?
@@whyukraine (((Bolshevism)))
So many of Tolkien’s villainous characters are continually offered chances to mend their ways and come back to the light. Denethor, Saruman, Wormtongue, Bill Ferny. Even the Mouth of Sauron is offered terms. And they continually choose - of their own will - to stay on their darker path. Sauron and his orc slaves in Mordor are the inevitable end point of this, when you are so astray you cannot go back. They choose to be fallen, wittingly or not. Great vid.
Indeed. It is pride, the Miltonian Satan type of pride. The act of repenting is seen as debasement, as beneath them, but I think with some of them like Wormtongue and even Saruman there is shame, a shame that acknowledges what they've really become, and a fear of enduring humiliation and hurt at the hands of those they've hurt. They can't believe that people really will (eventually) welcome them back. That's the tragedy of their pride. That even those glimmers of doubt and wanting to redeem themselves they push back, they simply do not see how things can be set right so better to be in charge of being in Hell.
Take Denethor out of your list, he was a good man! He used the Palantir to the benefit of his people, he repaired and reinforced the Rammas Echor and only fell to despair in the last moments, they depicted him unfairly in the movies.
The gate to hell is locked from the inside.
'We must care for each other, even our enemies.'
How very true.
It actually reminds me of the conversation between Achilles and Priam. I only recall the movie dialogue:
Achilles : You're still my enemy in the morning.
Priam : You're still my enemy tonight. But even enemies can show respect.
@@CounciloftheRings There's a great example from the lay of Horatius too, after our hero hurls himself into the Tiber to escape the Tuscan army after holding the bridge against various champions long enough for the Romans to demolish it:
No sound of joy or sorrow
Was heard from either bank,
But friends and foes in dumb surprise,
With parted lips and straining eyes,
Stood gazing where he sank;
And when above the surges
They saw his crest appear,
All Rome sent forth a rapturous cry,
And even the ranks of Tuscany
Could scarce forbear to cheer.
If we dehumanize our opponents or enemies, we dehumanize ourselves.
"Not everyone who fights you is your enemy.
Not everyone who helps you is your friend."
- Mike Tyson (make of that what you will).
Here I am, opening TH-cam for some light entertainment - and I get taken on a incredibly deep, stringent, beautifully constructed and structured self-reflective journey.
Dear sir, your videos are true gems!
Wow, thank you! That means a lot, especially when it performs so badly with the algorithm! Thanks! 🙏❤
isnt beautifully constructed and structured redundant? Great vid tho. Just bein a grammar uruk
100% agree
@@rudignreally? Lol 😂
that quote from Tolkien about how real war "men fight on both sides" in a motely alliance with "orcs, beasts, demons, men and angels" is the most profound quote about people who fight in wars. In war those are the different kinds of soldiers you encounter. The man: simply tries to do his best and survive and get home. the Beast: does not think for himself, obeys orders blindly and kills on command; like an animal. The Orc: the soldier who steals, loots pillages, rapes and tortures gleefully taking the opportunity to get away with that which under normal social rules they could never get away with. The Demon: fueled above all by hate, desires above all else to destroy his enemies, despises that quarter must be given to the enemy and given the opportunity will kill any and all the enemy, regardless of age, sex or status as a legit combatant. The Angel: while a fighter does not take life when not required to do so, shows pity, mercy and comfort even to the enemy. Even at risk to their own life and even when this might mean being alienated by his own comrades and risking their wrath.
Interesting topic.
I feel Tolkien knew better than anyone just how cruel humanity can be.
Totally. It’s hard to imagine what he might have seen and felt.
Yeah cause he served in WW1
@@DestielEdits Yup, him serving during WW1 gave him a decent look at it.
@@Maybeabandaid9 I think he got more than a decent look 😅
@@DestielEdits lol
"If more people valued food and cheer and song over hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world"
Exactly!
I'm so happy that you started this series on Tolkien's Philosophy. This is great stuff!
Thanks a lot! There's a lot more coming! I might wait a little with some of the planned ones as I don't want to repeat myself too much, but there's some new stuff coming soon and a few more lore videos; continuing the 'creatures of middle-earth' series 😁
I once told men that "When you all go home I want you to go home as soldiers, not as killers. If something is wrong at home then it is wrong here as well, we will all be filled with anger and hatred, but try to remember that not all of them volunteered for this like we do and what we do against them we will always carry with us when we leave this place and time. Do not show mercy for them, but rather show yourself mercy so that you will not dislike the man you will be in the future."
Well said! 🙏
Wow.
That's profound.
Well said
Of all the things that never happened...
Hm.
Great video that sets the record straight. Orcs represent the worst aspects of human nature not an allegory for any group of people.
Thank you. They are the manifestation of the worst of human and elf nature.
you sure about that lol
I think this is true for any number of vicious creatures in fantasy. (Who were probably "inspired" by Tolkien's orcs to begin with).
I absolutely love your narrative tone. You have a lovely voice to listen to. I look forward to listening to more of your stories.
Thank you! 🙏
Fantastic video. I love that you are diving into the more philosophical aspects of Tolkien. His collection of letters have dominated my Tolkien reading the last couple of years as I suppose with age my interest in these deeper aspects have developed and matured. There is a large internet football forum I peruse from time to time and they have a thread on the war in Ukraine. They call Russians orcs of course which is semi-official propaganda, and members share videos of some poor young conscript running away in fear from a suicide drone attack, whilst the forum members hoot and holler as the "orc" is killed by the infernal flying machine. Orcs indeed. Thank you again and looking forward to more videos diving into these deeper aspects and how you connect it to the Middle Earth lore.
Thanks! There are indeed many fascinating aspects of Tolkien’s world to dive into.
Sounds terrible with people hooting for death. I guess the orc can be found in us all, except those that are able to resist the corruption of evil. I’m afraid there’s no end to it, but speaking up is better than being silent.
Anyway, thanks for commenting! There’s another video coming divining into war and if Tolkien glorifies it through his stories (a ‘common’ criticism of his works). Cheers 🧙♂️
@@CounciloftheRings
Great question: Does Tolkien romanticize war?🤔
No, Tolkien does not glorify war. What. But he does show that people with wisdom or strength to defend their loved ones are laudable. Aragorn, Faramir, Eowyn… the fact that the War of the Ring would result in the heroes ultimate destruction is not a narrative that would appear if the war was, in and of itself, worthwhile.
And then the Scouring of the Shire also shows that conflict and small scale war is brutish and sad. Perhaps necessary, but never good.
About russians, them called themselves orcs before 22 year and have many fanfics form orcs perspective.
@ВладиславВладислав-и4ю
That is crazy. Tolkien clearly tells us that Orcs are purely evil and maybe even irredeemable. Why would someone be interested in the perspective of a sociopath?
Fantastic video. I had never heard the quote from 1945, gosh it’s compelling.
CotR I’ve been here awhile, but I gotta say this is your best one yet
Thanks a lot! 😁 Glad you liked it 🤗
"War is where the young and stupid are tricked by the old and bitter into killing eachother."
- Niko Belic
A good examination of the topic. I once read that the kabbalistic definition of evil was "good that has departed from its proper place."
The kabbalistic view of evil is that you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs and that something had to break (the "shattering of the vessels") for the universe to be created.
@@JerehmiaBoaz Correction appreciated!
Thank you. Yes the older i get the more i understand Tolkien more and more. And about orcy and the similarity how people can become haunts me for quite a while. No wonder i got sad reading his books, when i did it the first time. I did not understand it yet. It was just that deep truth about the world that is hidden in his books.
And, funnily enough, does include all the grey areas many people claim his stories lack. Tolkien was not naive, he looked at the world with hope. Big difference.
It is very telling about his inspiration that Tolkien used "orc" as an insult for real people who act wrong multiple times in his letters. What stuck with me the most was Letter 71 about how (humans behaving like) orcs are fighting in WII on all sides, but also how they differentiate them:
"Yes, I think the orcs as real a creation as anything in 'realistic' fiction: your vigorous words well describe the tribe; only in real life they are on both sides, of course.
[...]
In real (exterior) life men are on both sides: which means a motley alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, plain naturally honest men, and angels. But it does make some difference who are your captains and whether they are orc-like per se! And what it is all about (or thought to be)."
And even then, Tolkien didn't think of orcs as wholly evil creatures without rights - just like the most evil humans retain certain rights and value, whatever they have done.
I am a simple Rohirrim, i see a Council of the Rings video, i click a like.
Been anticipating this from your updates! Commenting before watching. Very Excited.
I hope you liked it!
Beautiful. Thank you. Any future film/show maker should be required to watch this video and study Tolkien’s vision of reality, especially of good and evil.
We criticize ROP for messing with the Tolkien’s lore, which is legitimate, but I think it is even worse that they mess with his underlying worldview.
Great point. TRoP did not clearly differentiate between good and evil. I think they did this on purpose just to virtue-signal that they were good little Marxists.
Was King Durin evil? He should not have been but ended up being evil so he could have his redemption-Kamikaze moment.
Galadriel was clearly evil at times. Almost everything she did was to show us that "the ends justify the means." Payne and McKay want to teach us that doing a little evil is sometimes necessary to accomplish a greater good. In other words, they wove in their woke ideology.
They showed us a loving Orc family. They had Daddy deservingly killed. Was he a good guy to his family and evil to non-Orcs?
This video just proved me that ROP is doing the right thing with the orcs
@@ultronemperor3525 How?
@@altechelghanforever9906 because Tolkien, being a Christian, did not believe in absolute evil. He even wrote in his letters that the orcs were not completely evil or irredeemable, and that without Sauron and Melkor they would have drawn closer to Eru. Glug and Adar show small glimpses of this possible redemption, but overall the orcs remain ruthless, cruel, enslaving monsters. And with Adar dead, there is no longer any chance for them. Orcs are like the worst of the humans. Nazis were complete monsters, still they were able of caring.
Always a great topic of discussion.
1:40 I have always related this to the devices of humanity (or at least on the third or fourth read of _The Hobbit_ ). I appreciate you using it here
I have a couple of Tolkien channels in my subscriptions and have been scrupulously avoiding adding another because I don't want my entire feed to be Tolkien. However, I just subscribed to your channel because video was just that good.
Thanks! A lot more like it is coming, but it might first be in the new year 😁
I would like to thank you for your videos, they bring me a lof of joy and help to survive hard times... Thanks
Any time! If you are ever in need of someone to talk to feel free to reach out to me on e-mail or join the Discord 🙏
Take care and Merry Christmas when you get that far 🎄⛄
Yes, more please!! You are putting into words what I cannot concerning Tolkien's philosophies. I've dealt with a guy who was en route to becoming a Tolkien scholar, then dropped it and him upon finding a couple of sentences from Tolkien's letters he deemed racist. And he completely jumped on the "Tolkien is fascist" band wagon. He wanted me, and others, to be free of the "prison of Tolkien fandom", ironic considering Tolkien's views. I tried my best to argue, but I failed miserably. This has been quite a balm for that as I know someone can say things about Tolkien far better than I ever could. A great many thanks!
#ForTolkien
Thanks! Truly 🙏 These comments mean a lot when the algorithm isn’t helping with the views 😁
There’s sadly a lot of ‘name-callers’ that wants to cancel a lot of people. It’s best to ignore them, as they won’t change their mind 🤷♂️
I find it most subversive the way people calling themselves Tolkien's fans use the word "orcism" or its idea, as analogy to "racism", and pretend that that's a flaw of Peter Jackson's movies or a white supremacist trope. You can see the clear intention of spreading the fanatical ideology of progressivism, with its emphasis on "diversity" and all the package that comes with it. Truly twisted people that must be recovered somehow.
Magnificent! Very stimulating and shows just what an incredible world and stories Tolkien created. Really well put together, your channel is amazing, keep it up. Am ready for more philosophical thought pieces like this one!
Thanks a lot! More is coming, but we are going into a slow phase due to my final exams 😊🧙♂
Very interesting video, and beautifully put together.
Thank you very much!
Absolutely amazing video! The philosophy of Tolkien, and how that is so well translated into his stories, is what makes his stories on such a higher level than any other works of fantasy, in my opinion. The following is completely subjective, but when I read Stephen King, I feel horrified. When I read H.P. Lovecraft, I feel intrigued and confused. When I watched (because I haven't read) Game of Thrones, I felt depressed. But when I read Lord of the Rings, or these incredible Tolkien-related videos, I am so uplifted, even if only slightly on bad days. It is my dream to be a published author and creator of a mythos like Tolkien's. But I have so much to learn, and have so much growing to do for I am a mere nascent child compared to the great authors I listed above. But Tolkien is one of my greatest inspirations, so being able to watch masterfully crafted videos like this one that help me understand Tolkien's philosophy is such a gift, thank you!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video! I hope it can help in some way with your writing 😁 Best of luck! 🤗
@@CounciloftheRings Thank you!🙏 Im gonna need it haha. Keep up the amazing work!
@@theloremaster792 Thanks! I can recommend you to read "King, warrior, magician, lover" by Robert Moore & Douglas Gillette, as well. It's great for masculine archetypes.
Same!!
I hope you get your novels published soon and share them with us!!
@@CounciloftheRings Oooh I’ll look that up, thanks for the recommendation.
Love the deep insight and references, keep it up.
A fascinating Deep dive into the nature of "evil" in the world of Tolkien. Great work sir! sounds like the writers of the Rings of power. Evil lacking substance, willfully choosing to defame and pervert rather than seeking to create something new and beautiful.
To be noted: in wars, a propensity for violence, destruction and - in lack of a better term - evil deeds, is actually quite useful, and makes for better warriors that won't hesitate to kill to save themselves, their brothers-in-arms or the cause they are fighting for. In other words, if say the elves were so good that they were unable to visit violence upon their enemies, they would have lost everything. But instead, they use all their might to maim and kill the orcs - a good thing by evil means.
This is so spot on! Thank you for creating this. It is the shadow within.
Beautiful, thank you for sharing.
Thanks for taking the time to comment! 🙏❤️
Excellent vid. Faramir is one of my favs too.
He is great! It’s such a shame he was changed so much in the films
The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Gulag Archipelago
Fantastic discussion! This is the kind of nuance people like the writers of RoP will never appreciate, so they think they can do better. I love that you described the orcs as victims of evil as much as its agents, and I find orcs almost incapable of goodness thanks to Morgoth's corruption to be far more pitiable than those who have loving families and still grow up to be horrible violent monsters. I imagine that just as Morgoth poured his malice and corruption into the fabric of the world, he poured it in far greater concentration into the first orcs, imbuing them with a hatred for all light and goodness. We know orcs had agency and hated their masters, obeying only out of fear, but they never express any desires of their own not related to war, plunder and violence, because that is all they know.
Fantastic view!! Wow!
This is astoundingly insightful, thank you for the video!
Thank you! Super happy you enjoyed it! 😁
Another great video. Thank you so much! 🙏🏻
What a lovely listen. Thank you
WW1 was far more gentlemanly in conduct than this video tries to make a parallel of. Mass industrial slaughter may be the work of modern war, but the men of the trenches were no Einsatzgruppen or Commissars. Anyway it's a thoughtful and thought-provoking video, which is most important.
I have to thank you just for using the artwork at 4:48, I've never seen it before and it's beautiful.
Ever read All Quiet on the Western Front? Warfare can never be fought “gentlemanly”. Grow up
Have you ever read Storm of Steel? War is inevitable. Best not to be sentimental about it.
@@ianwilliams2632 Although some puff out of touch rich people might have stayed sentimental, no one who’d been in the trenches for even a day would think that. So I have no idea where you’re coming from with this “gentlemanly” war.
Great Video. Thank you!
Glad you liked it! 🤗
Very insightful, thank you.
Excellent video expressing my own thoughts about the selfishness of war and those leaders who instigate war. Thank you.
Wonderful you liked it 😁🤗
I love the last quote.
GREAT video! Subbed
Thank you! And welcome to the Council! 🙌
Fantastic and touching video! Mange Tak!
@@thundercliff93 ❤️
Thank you for making videos like this ❤
Glad you liked it!
Far as I can tell Orcs are incapable of good whereas man is capable of good and evil for me that is the only distance between us and Orcs that we need.
I thought the same thing, seeing what is happening lately in Ghaza. I thought often of Sams speech in Osgiliath
ISIS. Some real orcs came to the surface there, I’ve seen and heard things that made me realize the darkness in men’s hearts
This is a superb video, one of the best I have ever seen.
I have thought about the nature of Orcs a fair amount but I have not previously seen it distilled so effectively down to its essence; that Orcs are what you get when you remove everything that is good and decent from people. And I agree that we all have a darker side and are capable of Orcish behavior.
I think that in theory Orcs are redeemable but that in the "reality" of Arda that wasn't going to happen. Their entire history was one of cruelty and brutality, both on the receiving and giving ends. And even once Sauron was gone and there were no more Dark Lords, they still lived in a world where the taint of Morgoth's attempt to corrupt it was still present. In the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag, it's clear they have no desire to escape and go live in peace somewhere; they simply want to be free of Sauron's control. As the centuries of the 4th Age unfolded, the extraordinarily violent nature of Orcs would have been their undoing as they were confronted with the increasing domination of the world by Men. To put it in evolutionary terms, they would have been outcompeted by Men and ultimately died out. I am reminded of a theory I ran across some years ago that suggested that the origins of law in human societies was to deal with the most violent among us; those who could not live peacefully with their fellows. Similarly, Orcs would not have been able to live peacefully near Men or even with each other.
There was a comment in your video regarding whether or not humans have always been a violent species. From what I've read over the years, there is ample evidence of human-on-human violence dating back even before we first established permanent settlements. And while I have forgotten the details, I have read about a study that said that if you analyze our evolutionary family tree, we come from a line that includes many species known for high levels of violence against their own kind.
Excellent comment! You raise a lot of interesting ang good points. I don’t think orcs as a group were redeemable, either, but perhaps a few individuals were? We don’t have any examples, but I guess the snaga (basically slaves), might be the best bet. Not that they were exactly ‘good’, but perhaps Eru was able to forgive them? Who knows!
And yeah I think you are right. Humans have been violent since the dawn of time. I don’t think everyone has some orc within them, but there certainly are some. It’s just rarely the deeds of angels and good honest plain Men, that gets the attention of the medias these days ☺️
this video was way better than I would it would be
Thanks! 😁
1:12 that painting is absolutely amazing 🥲 I wish I knew what it was called and who made it.
It's just AI. I made it to mix Mordor with a WW1 battlefield. I can send it to you on Discord, if you want to use it for something!
@@CounciloftheRings oh no, I was just wondering. You did very well. And thanks. I have my own art Ai thing.
But does this answer the greatest question of them all, what was Aragorn's tax policy? 🤔
For real though, great video, I've seen some people say that in the lord of thr rings making one side good and the other side evil made the story boring for them because you can't really sympathise with the orcs, of course I always disagreed with that notion and i think this video hits all the spots in explaining why the orcs are like what they are in the story and what they represent.
Thank you! Yes, I've heard people make similar complains, but they are rarely willing to listen for why the orcs are like they are :P
Amazon showed us a living Orc family.🙄
Great video! Well done 👏🏼
Thanks a lot! ❤️
Great video. Orcs are fantastic as a species, a reasonable read of what humanity can be at its very worst. Such a hopeful thought by Tolkien that not even such as they are irredeemable. I hope the same is true for the orcs in real life.
I’m a simple Mirkwood elf. I see a LotR video, I click.
Platoon also has a ring to one of his friends from the battle at the Somme in his newest Video. I think if I remember well the one about ep.1 season 2. Never has been the wisdom of J.R.R.Tolkien and his son Christiophet be so present to me everday I watch the news
. And to know that there is a light where no other light can shine
Good job whoever edited the dragon transition into the flamethrower
Faramir is the ultimate warrior, not because he loves war, glory or fame, but because he recognizes the horror of it while also acknowledging its necessity for peace. It's why I absolutely HATE what Jackson did to him in the movies.
A great video!
Thanks!
I hope you have a happy halloween 👻 !
@@Mikatus1 and likewise!
What a lovely video
Thx!
This was not just great quality, but so well done all around and I am not even embarrassed to admit that I teared up a bit while watching. So nicely done! Hope to see more similar things soon. It truly is sad how every day especially on social media we will see crowds cheer at suffering of others with not even a slight expression of pity. I liked it how you included Sam’s quote about the wars of Men, for that quote goes through my mind too when I sometimes see those crowds cheer over cruelties on social media, while in reality most of the time it is not an expression of justice or reaction born of compassion, but a simple sadistic pleasure. I enjoyed many of your videos, but this one I think so far is best
Thank you so much! Yes I totally agree that we see a lot of awful stuff on Social media almost daily now. It’s truly sad. Glad you enjoyed the video! 🙏❤️
What I love about Tolkien is that while he was a Catholic and his sub-created world was based in that view, it reflects the profundity of the mystics and high philosophers of this form of Western religion and the basis of most of the non-dual traditions of the East. Eru is the One. Everything else exists in the mind of Eru, even Melkor, that, "whose works will only add to the greater glory of the song." Melkor is the psychological principal of power, and Sauron the principal of order. These are a part of all of us, but become shadows and archons when driven by desire, individualism, fear, envy, etc, etc. But the destruction that unintegrated shadows, in individuals and societies, bring only adds to the advancement of the good.
I almost cried at the end. In fact, a couple of tears fell. Beautiful video. Greetings from Argentina.
Thanks! Awesome you’re from Argentina. It sometimes amazes me how we in this day and age can reach people across the globe to easily 😁
Cheers! 🤗
Fantastic essay of literary criticism and so gives weight to the idiocy of the TV show trying to make family men of orcs. No clearer sign that the people in charge don’t understand Tolkien at all
Very good. I couldn't help but think about what Imperial Japan did at Nanjing and other evils in history. Orc like definitely
I always wondered if Tolkien ever dove into the idea of mans inner orc, my question has been answered
The amount of likes don't give justice to the impact this video has.
Thanks!
What's the name of the song that's at the end of the video?.
It's by Emil Mårlind Music. Here's a link: th-cam.com/video/M9AFSYNULxg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=L_LY4Pqys4oCBmFY
@@CounciloftheRings Thank you brother.
I think anyone, no matter how twisted, can be redeemed, they just have to want to be better, and act on it... but if someone doesn't want to be better, doesn't have any doubts about their actions and doesn't feel remorse for the people they've hurt, they can't be redeemed -- people redeem themselves through right thought and right action.
..unless you are utterly and hopelessly dominated by a Dark Lord! 😂 and there are plenty of those in this world we live in
@@yttamhtims Yes, though the phrasing is fantastical, that's essentially the truth; middle earth, ww2 or today. If you are living to fulfil the vision of a powerful person and are justifying harm you cause and pushing down any remorse, you're on a dark path and can't be saved by a third party. You have to break free from their influence first.
Also, fantastic ending quote to the video!
Thanks!
@@CounciloftheRings You're welcome 😊
Don't you know we're at WARRRRRRR???!! - double nose ring orc
Since the moral culpability of the orcs is reduced by their enslavement to the point of being nigh non existent, I think that in the afterlife they'll be shown much mercy, at least among those who did not willingly become orcs.
As sinful creatures ourselves, we have but to look into the Book of Revelation, where Tolkien's description of the "orc" within us can be seen through those who reject Christ and wear the Mark of the Beast, those whose names God never had in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. (Holy Bible, Book of Revelation 17:8)
Ever since playing Shadow of War i always wonder what its like if u had an orc buddy
Probably not a good friend 😂
@@CounciloftheRings Yeah maybe i mean look at Bruz 😂
It's like having a meathead mate who constantly gets into fights.
thank you
I like that Tolkien strayed away from the creation of souls/spirits and left it at the idea of them always existing, intrinsically linked to the existence of Eru. If I were to take a shot at whether the orcs could be redeemed after Sauron's fall, I would say "No" for two reasons:
First, the idea that they are so totally corrupted that, as you stated, their free will has been twisted into an ever-present desire for self gratification. This mirrors Romans 1:24.
And second, with the purging of Sauron and Morgoth from Middle Earth, this is akin to, in my view, the return of Christ, where there is no more perversion, corruption, or evil things. Thus, after the Dark Lord's defeat, no more orcs are created, and they slowly go extinct, leaving the question of their salvation ultimately irrelevant.
WAAAGH!!!
Oh.. wrong orc. My bad.
As someone who wants wars to be avoided at all costs, this is one of the reasons I like games like Total War, LOTR games etc, that let me channel these internal impulses (or culturally imposed male drives) for battlefield glory in a video game, rather than seek it IRL myself or either by proxy, by expecting others to die for some conceived tribal benefit.
There will always be bad men to fight, people to defend from monsters. Peace only in death.
"In wae men become monsters, war create only broken shells of men, scared and tortured husks"
Even Tolkien written that orcs are capable of redemption. He hated the concept of absolute evil. I'm glad ROP is showing this side of his philosophy
In a letter of 1954, 153 Tolkien wrote that orcs were "fundamentally a race of 'incarnate rational' creatures, though horribly corrupt, if not more so than many men one meets with today."
"I almost wrote 'irredeemably evil'; but that would be going too far. For, by accepting or tolerating their conception 'necessary to their present existence,' even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's, and therefore ultimately good.)
The orcs in the series are Tolkien's orcs, and Adar lays bare their ontological status by pointing out some passages present in The Lord of the Rings
I disagree and think the ROP went way too far in their ‘maybe they aren’t really that bad’ angle. The not so subtle suggestion in ROP that Orcs are fundamentally ‘good’ and would rather just live a simple life, does not sit right at all. In reading the entirety of letter 153, and as outlined so eloquently in this video, Orcs are fundamentally EVIL, and wholly corrupted, influenced and dominated by The Dark Lord (be that Morgoth or Sauron). They are a permanent physical incarnation of the worst of human nature. Possibly not beyond all redemption once whichever Dark Lord exerting their will over them is vanquished, but certainly not while Sauron is at the height of his powers and very much active in the world.
Since we’re talking about societal and philosophical themes in Tolkien’s work I’d be curious to see you cover the topic of female roles in his books. Obviously Tolkien came from a different time and might have held some outdated beliefs about women but I think many interpret him and his stories as being misogynistic which I strongly disagree with. There was one paper in particular covering Tolkien’s views on woman called “Flawed and Formidable: Galadriel, Éowyn, and Tolkien’s Inadvertent Feminism” which, although well researched and formatted, I think made many unfair presumptions about the man and took his words out of context on multiple occasions to prove his apparent misogyny. It’d be a fascinating topic to delve into if you’re ever looking for new topics to discuss.
I actually started working on a script about it last week ☺️
Misogynist is bit far, but he was sexist. If we have to compare him with most of his contemporaries however, then he was quite the egalitarian (though I suspect Tolkien would dislike this characterization).
"The evil combustion engine" as he viewed it
Ww1 was the first war where the human beings were made obsolete, the weakest part of armies.
And it haunted our boy
13:45 do you hear that Rings of Power? Do ya fuckin hear that?!
We are all orks within if you think of it orks and man are the same if not humans are worse
Another day of realizing how much of a chad Tolkien was
I get the point, and understand that Tolkien was on the battlefield and had a first hand knowledge of war, but I have it that Morgoth used both his own magic and the power of all three Silmarils to transform Elves into orcs. It wasn't just about breeding ugly Elves. There was a spiritual transformation that he manufactured using the power of creation itself.
Very beautiful
Distant? My stepfather taught me full well that orcs are common among us, they just wear similar-looking skin. Trauma both episodic and generational, breeds sociopathic and narcissistic coping traits that feed on and/or amplify some of our inborn male characteristics. Embarrassment and insecurity become a point of blame to cast fault away from ourselves and we invent the other, and we dehumanize them to avoid seeing in ourselves the embarrassment, the fault we blame on them, and in trying to reject this through casting it on others we become the very thing we try to avoid. Others wanting to avoid embarrassment help us create a web of excuses we hold up together and call "honor". What word was more uttered by the emperors whose insecure pride led to the world wars?
Like many mislead youth i too went out to fight the monsters for my country and became one.when i die will the devil greet me as an old friend with open arms and a warm smile.
Subscribed ❤
Awesome! Welcome to the Council!
Can we get an update on the kingdoms of Arda it's almost the end of 2024 and we're going into 2025 so just wondering what's going on are you guys still working on it just haven't heard anything
There were several community posts on Macbeth of Gondor some days ago ☺️ I also posted these on my Instagram, Subreddit and X
For orcs redemption I like to think of it from funnily enough a perspective of C.S Lewis. In short I believe that orcs spirits cannot be redeemed in thier corrupted bodies, or by the power of Men and Elves. But once freed from their corrupted and ruined forms that Eru, or the Valar can reedem their spirits. Then those that were meant to be elves can be rehoused in elven bodies and those that were meant to be Men can enjoy the afterlife Eru has for them.
Un-alive them all, and let the gods sort them out? Is that what you say?
@@Billpro25 that is a way of putting it simply yes. Though I do pefer the uncensored word 'kill' still.
@@JSFal I had it posted it uncensored and get my comment deleted enough times to use the censored word.
I hope however you understand what this sort of mentality implies.
Orcs are applicable as Tolkien says. But you are meant to imagine the Orcs as real things, their own thing, that actually existed long ago. 'I'm entirely historically minded.' They're not an allegory representing some men and they are not meant to represent something within man. They're pure creatures of imagination that stand for themselves. An Orc is an Orc.
He gets them from the idea of Goblins etc in fairy tales. He imagines, what if they were real? He creates the orcs to satisfy that need, with no intention of allegory or psychodrama.
Music ??
Emil Mårlind Music, as mentioned in the description ;)
@ thank you !
It is very strange, at how much fictional creatures we human imagine, and all of them are a reflection of humanity. We made the elf in our own image, an image of physical perfection and mentally perfection. We made the dwarf in our own image, an image of craftsman, smithing's and industrial capabilities. We made the Orc in our own image, an image of primary loose, letting loose of primary instinct, the aspect of us we consider as being suppress in a civilize era. We made the dragon in our own image, the image of if, if individual human as all powerfully entities inspiring fears in other instead of the often reverse. We made the hobbit in our own image, an image of a life after retirement preferably with our own small farms, community and the no longer need to interact with the oppress capital economic system, which is also made in our image, the historical image of unequal wealth accumulation.
Hick even Skynet, is made in our image, and I don't the humanoid form, I mean the short slightness, the tendency of humanity that ignore all the goods thing the many nations project in history had done, selfishly out of their own compassion toward other people and natures. The many time many nations, kingdom, cities state tried to organize peaceful coexistence, the even harder mutual economic development, in the infinitely more difficult economic growth for all of the population without economic exploitation. Yet Skynet, just like humanity only know of it's failure, and how those attempts end up in failures and the aftermath which can result into wars, or experience wars or some other kind of misery ETC, it's only know of this, AND DESPITE IT"S VAST AMOUNT OF DATA, it's refuse to look at them, to see the entirety, just like humanities, refuse to look into it's past critically, and in it's entirety, and thus doom to repeat the same mistake over and over again.
And By humanity, I mean the collective cultural assumptions in the West. Cause that is another thing, once you ops to ignores, to outcast the entirety of history, you also outcast the experience and opinions of peoples from other background in history. Italian romanticize about the glorious roman empire, ignores all the extraction and accumulations of wealth from three continents back into the roman empire, expective making the roman society flush with surplus materials, and capital, but drains all those continents and kingdoms, and tribes and cities state, absolutely dried, so naturally they experience famines, plagues and fall deep in debt, and the slavery.
So the perspectives of a Roman citizens who benefits from the Empire is different from some Greek or Hellenic person in one of Rome territories. And then there are active class struggle with the Roman Society, average Roman does not have any political powers to stops the plunder and accumulations of wealth and capital in Rome, nor are there any resistance political groups until Christianity that are oppose to this plunder of all these continents and their people. The average Roman is also a worker, he who may benefits from cheaper grains, are still needed to works daily to make end meets, while all of the wealth accumulation when back to the Roman Elite, which made up of less than 1% of the populations of Italy, let alone Rome, privately owns as private property regions of the territories the Roman Empire conqueror, and thus charge rents and taxes on the working folks of Italian and local people who aren't enslaves.
So now you have three perspective. A Roman worker, a worker within the Roman Empire not benefit from Rome wealth, but have to work to death for Rome to be Wealth, and the Roman Wealthy populations which benefits from all of this unequal exchanges. Now plush of these data to Skynet, and It's will ignore, all the struggle of the Donatist Christianity (The OG Christian) for the lofty of anti-oligarch anti-plutocracy, anti-war and anti-imperialism towards a fair and equality society, all lofty goals, but this lofty goals were fought for by massive populations of Italian and Colonizes people across the Empire, which was successful to a level. Now Plush all of this into Skynet databank, it's will only see the wars wages by the Roman Empire, and the Roman civil wars, BUT NOT the class struggle wars against the 1% Oligarch, it's not see the wars of these regions for independent against an oligarchic empire, it's will only understand that there are wars, equally as short sighted as modern western perceptions of history.
We made entities that isn't real, fantasy without own imagine, the same way Slice of Life is an anime genre, it's escapism. It is easier to explains, analyzes and come to terms with history and reality if it is portrays by a fantasy setting, but all those fantasy setting contents, are all down to earth concept. In the Orc, we explains and come to terms and even resist our violent urges and primary rage, or in bad emotions in general. In that rings and that white goblin hobbit thing, we explains greed and fought against greed. In the Hobbit, we explains the underdogs fight and bravery. In the Elf and Dwarf, we explains the united forces of differences between cultures, ethnicities and the bonds of cooperation's.
In the Galactic Empire, we explains Imperialism, Colonialism, Neo-Companies-Colonialism and the common folks only alternative to resisting tyranny is revolutions of the masses. In the Galactic Republic, we explains the conflict of interest in each of the political, social and economic sections and how the lack of all sides cooperation's would lead to nothing getting done, and the willingly given up power to powerful hungry groups with business interest, to take over, and do the works instead of democracy and democratic value.
We can that much, but no way can we explains this with real life empire, even if all of these are just analogy of reality formations of governing and formations of society, political bodies and the many often at odd economic interests.
I love when you breakaway from rings of power to give your expert insight Discount Drinker! In all seriousness, this is good content. Great job. Its amazing what you can do when you dont focus on things that are negative (edit yes i actually liked the video)
B...b....but the rings of power told me that the orcs were just misunderstood and they just wanted a white picket fence in the shire!!
There's something to be said here about Túrin Turambar, who spent most of his lifetime slaughtering Orcs as his shadow fell on him more and more. He had no choice, though. Morgoth and his armies brutalized Middle Earth more than Sauron ever had. There were never any terms of surrender or peace; just unending hordes of Orcs (and Glaurung) destroying everything and killing everyone. And thus, evil breeds more evil, even if the road to hell is paved with good intentions (and Orc skulls).
It was humans that really screwed him up.
If the orcs are redeemable, is Morgoth? (serious question).
Theoretically yes. The valar even tried to reform him once but he persisted in his own corruption. I'm not sure what his existence is like in the void, whether he experiences space and time would his affect his ability to change if he ever wanted to.
Morgoth saw his own evil, reflected on himself and then doubled down. You can't help people who refuse help.