Why Most Indie Game Developers Don't Make Money
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ย. 2022
- Join me as I chat with the original indie game publisher, Scott Miller!
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► What I believe: • What I Believe - เกม
![6 Real Examples of Indie Game Sales Numbers [2021]](/img/n.gif)
I just love how honest Scott is during this podcast. Let's give Scott a huge thank you in the comments for hanging out with us!
► Check out Apogee: www.apogeeent.com/
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► Make your game instantly beautiful with my free workbook: www.fulltimegamedev.com/opt-in-instant-beauty-color-workbook
► Get my 2D game kit, free: www.fulltimegamedev.com/opt-in-2D-game-kit
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Thanks alot @Thomas Brush
Hey greetings brush👋 I've been following and your tips and advices are really helping me 🙏 I'll soon release my first "crap" game 😅. Thank you a lot @Thomas Brush
That's not the full video Thomas it was cut short
I'm making a game because I've always wanted to, I will release it and I don't expect it to make any money, It's been fun and horrific all at the same time
Same! I'm making my game because I'm passionate about it. I'll be happy if it sells five copies lol. The salary and benefits from my career are way too high for me to leave it and I'd rather not worry about trying to support my family based on what my game sells like.
@@StarcandleGames what you making? :)
@@iamthebubb a cozy, adventure platformer
@@StarcandleGames Nice, are you using Unity? I'm making a 3D top down arcade shooter
@@iamthebubb yes! Still learning but hoping it will be good!
I'll also add in something I think gets overlooked by many indie developers: treat your game as we suggest gamblers do when entering a casino. Don't bet (spend on development) more than you can afford to lose! Not everyone can quit their job to make their dream game, and that is perfectly acceptable. Like Scott says when discussing movies, not every movie will be a hit, but you know what? It is a lot easier for a movie studio to make their money back on an $8 million budget vs. a $200 million one! (Ignoring, of course, the asinine way movie studio accountants do the books where even the most highly successful movies technically "lose" money.) Pulling it back to games, focus on making a game that only needs to sell a smaller number of copies to be successful. Plus, from a marketing perspective, it should be easier to get a connection to a small group of fans and then grow your reach with that core group from a prior game hopefully willing to give you a chance on your next project! Someone from Y Combinator once said in an interview to not start at scale; meaning, do things that you can't do when you have a million customers but which will be the life blood of your project when first starting out. The example given was AirBnB, where the founders literally went to New York City and offered to take pictures of hosts' homes personally for the website. Obviously, they couldn't do that in every new city, but when they first started out and were trying to reach 50 homes on the site? Well worth the effort! For games, find a fan community for the type of game you want to build and join it, but not just to promote your game - get involved in the community, be an active participant, and become an established part of the group. Because then, when you do promote your game, they will see you as an actual member of the community and be more open to giving you a shot as you are not just someone seeking to market to them. (Obviously this only works if you are making a game that you yourself are a fan of, but that is a different issue to discuss elsewhere.)
I’m working on a few projects myself and thanks so much for this advice! I will definitely remember this
This is definitely a good advice. Me as a musician have to be careful too. Sometimes I find myself wanting to invest a lot of money on instruments but it's better to remain realist and invest wisely!
This is the first free advice I watch that is truly truth and very informative this advice is really very strong that can change some one's life
Well done man for your golden word 👍
Pick Genre's which sell and are not over saturated / over complicated to create, choose an Engine you are going to stick with, write reusable code, make small games, build skills, build fans, build a back catalogue, don't make you dream game 1st (or 5th) but take ideas from it and really hone them, read Chris Zukowski blogs and watch videos he is a guest on to understand how to market your game because most peoples advise is wrong.
@@nyanaudio I struggled with gas too, but in reality, all you need to make music is one instrument, let's be honest😄 (it doesn't even have to be that great)
I started investing more into learning (courses, books...) than in gear and THIS tranformed my level, so much more.
I love that he points out that you have to always keep learning, and be open to learning. Growth mindset until the end :)
yeah and then in the end ur broke and got nothing because this world is a mess. good luck on getting 1 million for a small little house in a city
hey Thomas! another great video. i just wanted to say that i absolutely love the format of this interview that you are uploading. i know that this is the same interview from the last video but i very much appreciate that each video is one question rather than getting thrown a bunch of information at once. it allows for proper absorption of the information he is giving. thank you!
Making games is something like writing...you have to make several games before you really have the right experience.
The important thing is to enjoy the road trip and don't forget that we came here because of love for videogames. With that in mind, you can focus on create good things and experience will definitely help you :D
I love how honest you & Scott are in this video thank you for the information on this video during my own indie dev journey Thomas.
The role of LUCK is grossly under-represented in game development.
We all like to believe we're masters of our own destiny, and that we'll make money if only we work harder. But it doesn't work like that.
Steam is full of great games that don't sell. They don't get sequels because their developers go broke, usually with huge debts.
For every indie darling whose game is promoted by all the fashionable streamers, there are a thousand other developers who work just as hard, whose games come and go, just one of the thousands of games that hit the digital shelves each year.
Remember this in your business plan.
DON'T BET THE HOUSE ON ONE GAME.
Why is it then that all the games that you see represented in "how much money my game made on steam" videos are so low-quality and uninspired? You see them and you instantly think "no wonder this couldn't sell"
@@w0mblemania Considering there's more gamers today than ever before I feel it's more important to find a way to reach your core group/niche. Having good social media presence, getting involved in that niche before releasing the game....that seems highly important to make an income as an indie dev. You don't need tens of thousands of players for a game to be successful. But in today's world, social media is key. There's plenty of people who would enjoy your game, you just have to find them.
What’s crazy is the people working at the school in the computer lab are getting paid about the same amount but the cost of living has increased dramatically
100%
You're saying they still get paid $15k?
@@Person106 Adjusted for inflation, pretty much.
This video is literal GOLD MINE for Indie devolopers. Insane work and interview! Kudos.
"Gold mine" is right
"The first independent games" didn't come out in the 90s- they came out in ziplock bags in the late 70s by someone like Richard Garriot working in his bedroom.
What we are missing these days is a web portal where programmers, artists, game designers, musicians can log in on daily basis, upload a piece of work every time, working for free but have a fair % of income after project published. Its up to you to participate in this or that project and have risks to loose your time and efforts, but you have no pressure, you can work on 20 projects at the same time, don’t wait anyone, no publishers (maybe portal itself can be the publisher as well). Anyway I hope this guy will make it some day, I’m a professional game developer, but not an entrepreneur.
Watching this channel I'm constantly unsure whether I should keep trying to make games or give up now since it's all "hey thousands of games come out and you need to spend 10 years practicing first to make a dime" lol
well you know reallity ...
There will be 10x more games coming out annually as people start using AI tools to speed up game creation. This should matter less if you make a game because you just want to and you're not expecting to make money from it.
I love how you broke up the full interview into a bunch of smaller, edited videos with your own commentary to give context.
Like these recent videos have been so rich with info, and it's really interesting to see how yours and scotts experiences differ
nothing is easy
I like this interview ,great job thomas keep making this kind of video I enjoy and learning a lot from this kind of video to honest this is the most valuable stuff I get from your channel
3 mins in and he said a lot of bullshit that just boiled down to "LUCK" 3 more min and still nothing.
No he didn't. Listen again and take notes.
Thank you for this video :) I am working on a game idea slowly, mostly for myself since it's my first game. :) will see if I eventually make more games.
Need art?
@@tobemaxezeogu1840 I am drawing the characters myself but I am thinking of ordering some background art. 😊
No useful information, only water
This is what i fear if i run a indie game company
Dont give up you can still make an indie game company you just have to believe in you
Thanks Blaze!
FYI: "Indie games" predate Wolfenstein3D and Duke Nukem by a long way.
Most computer games prior to the DOOM years, were created by indies.
They were created by very small outfits, often just as single programmer/artist.
For every Electronic Arts with their venture capital, there were a thousand programmers, bashing away on their Apple II's, Commodore 64s, TRS-80s, academic mainframes etc.
There is no single first "indie" creator. (Even Pong has a backstory that crosses decades.)
Cheers.
If you focus on making games you might fail, but if just focus on kicking ass and chewing bubble gum you will succeed.
* If you focus on making games you might fail, but if just focus on kicking ass and chewing bubble gum you might fail too.
Great interview! Scott makes alot of sense. Was great to hear him mention “talent”, and “growth mindset”…but as a non industry but long term game fan, I would think “Innovation” should be a key element/goal worthy of discussion. If you think of all the super-memorable games in history, usually the buzz that attracted all the sales came because people became passionate fans of “this new thing”. Mario. Sonic. Doom. Myst. Crash Bandicoot. Diablo. Resident Evil. Warcraft. Portal. Minecraft. Cuphead. Etc etc. Every MASSIVE title ever had inspirations its comparable to, but took things to a level that hadn't been seen before.
Imo Hollywood AND the gaming industry are in a “copy whats been done because safe money” slump that is eating itself alive and costing them dearly.
Ps, maybe already exists…but an interview looking into kickstarter experiences (Hollow Knight, Crowsworn come to mind) would be VERY interesting…given the community is active in the process and in many cases provides more $ than what was initially the goal. Making massive profits before the game is even done I would thinks is goals haha…curious to know if these creators do well after or reinvest it all entirely into game, come out broke again. (I cant picture THAT, but…)
I think innovation should definitely be a part of every game someone makes, but also believe that statement needs to be qualified. You don't need to innovate on every feature in your game. You just need something new. There's a ton of similar games out there that all make money even though they are basically the same game. Sometimes all it takes is one gameplay feature to make the next one stand out or above the previous one to find that..let's call it the 'sub-niche' of gamers that would enjoy it.
For a small-time studio truly running on a lean budget and keeping scope/scale in check, it seems like making something you think is fun, even if it's already been done before, should still be viable for making an income. Just my 2 cents. :)
@@WildTechGames agreed. And perhaps innovation is stronger a word than I’m looking for. Elden Ring, Cuphead and Hollow Knight, just as examples, are old ideas with new twists implemented…but are inspired. The creative elements that made these “new” games have moved tons of units and the love and replay-ability hasn’t diminished over time.
Do you ever have drops in motivation? How do you get back on track?
I have an idea actually don't know if it's actually better or it will be. I want to start with a game on mobile platforms, specifically a zombie apocalypse title game as there isn't one. I have decided and am working on a captive story that would help to lead and entertain the game. I have also thought of including some activities that make the game interesting and more playable. Not only killing zombies but other interactive levels of activities to compete in the game. If you think this is a great idea, pls tell
This is very insightful. Thanks.
FIRST! also Thomas. I've lost motivation for game dev. But you've given me the inspiration to carry on! Thx!
U can do it!!!
I believe in you!
@@prestonilcfcprestonilcfc623 thx
Unfortunately it's a rough market out there and indie devs, especially indie solo devs, are unlikely to make much money. The kinds of games one person can make in a year are unlikely to sell well.
why?
that's why making them polished works. If people enjoy your game, they are likely to recommend it to other players
Making a game like hollow knight or cuphead is hard especially being a solo even success is hard
If I wanted to make a game for profit, I would get financial backing, a good team, a marketing budget, and most importantly, a game idea that is different enough to stand out. If it's not different enough, then all that other stuff probably won't matter.
Know your audience/players
its simple
just make games with love not for money
Thank you for this video sir
What he said is just soo pertinent
They could actually make lots of money. But the problem is that they put lots of effort in beginning of the game then they put game on Steam as a Early Acces game. When they put Early Acces they keep it as a Early Acces stage usually 6-12 months then after this time pass they make the game FREE to play and stop improving the game then people stop caring about the game. Why players would wait improment of the game when there's 1000 games to choose from and works better?
didn't I just watch this yesterday? why was it reposted?
365 days in a year.
This guy claims to read 100 books a year.
Are you fucking kidding me?!
Genius vs AntiChrist 1 !!!Very Science !!!
Hello, how do i share my game idea without someone stealing it?
I won’t steal I promise
this is a common fear but this rarely ever happen, creating games cost time and money and there aren't many people that are willing to spend these resources
You share the idea - but not the 'Twist'... so if someone 'Steals it' - then you release yours - with the Twist... ( They won't have the Twist !! )
Good video! 👍👍
Essentially... 🤔
Thanks for making the tutorial ✋✋
I’ve heard good and bad things about focusing on passion projects..
Apogee is awesome! :D
Because 90% percent of indie games are platformers or meitroidvanias, which there is abundance of. What did you expect if you bring wood to a forest
Notch made with early Minecraft from 2010 to 2015 as a person alone more than the CEO of EA in 5 years.. He made in the alpha and beta versions millions already.. He became a billionaire with a game that he made literally alone most of the time with help from 2-3 people... Vampire survivors Developer earned millions in 1 year.. You have to have a good idea and luck as an Indie Games or solo game developer .
Notch's story is basically the indie dev version of winning the lottery. Actually, even more surprising than that.
Maybe the majority of indie games don’t make money because people don’t feel like they need to make money off of passion projects.
I think these days it is about doing something different then the rest or some weird game or combining something which wasn't done or just get one viral video and then hype train gonna start
I have been viral several times(Tiktok) and have made games no one else does. I have learned that the idea really isn't important nor is doing something different. all you need is a polished game with decent graphics, with the idea of marketing built into the game design. if you are making a 2d game or a side scroller you have a 99.9% chance of it failing in marketing.
Another thing is if you use steam then you are absolutely screwed and have almost no chance of being successful, you are betting on luck that the moderators at steam will push your game, my games store page traffic (all 3) are entirely bots on steam. On other platforms like the app store, they are seen by real people so I have more success there. I think in the first week or two they will show it to some real people(nowhere near other platforms) given it's on new and trending but after that, you will have 0 real people a day visiting.
So basically don't use steam, make a game that is polished to the best of your ability and has a marketable trait that can be recognized in relation to something else(not just games, I use movies/TV Shows for mine).
Agreed. Be Different & Get Lucky...
didnt expect dusttale lol
I feel like I have a great idea but bc it's my first game it has to be shit, right? Like is there any chance of my first game ever being good enough to really hit it off?
Had a cool game idea, struggled with coding 5 months ago (no experience). Stayed persistent, learned for 5 months straight, no days off, and now all my initial ideas are in the game. About a week or two from being finished- looks way better than a first attempt. Only coding experts might notice the difference if they’re able to see the coding because I’m sure there’s more efficient ways of doing some of the coding I did, but it worked for me and I’m confident you wouldn’t be able to tell it’s my first game.
@@tonyshoulders_ Thanks for sharing. I feel like I am a perfectionist so I am kinda stuck at even starting... If I dont overthink it, and just start, I would probably know what works and doesnt work out... Wish me luck haha
@@notmyopinion4981 don’t overthink it. My best advice is to only implement things that you can find tutorials for. Like for example, if you can’t find a good tutorial for “how to make a lock picking mechanic” scrap the idea and try to come up with some thing else that you can find help on. This way you start to get a game going, but as you code and learn how too you’ll realize “oh, hey i can actually take this code and make this other idea come to life”
Some of us don't want the moolah
Pyramid Scheme. Do one, says he.
What a scoop!
6:02
Talent developers are definitely the minority compared to alot of developers that have no heart in their games like the what you see billions of indie games on eshop that suck because most indie developers suck
Most indie games are clones of clones of clones. In other words: the same game you can find thousands and thousands of times for years and years, nothing new.
In other words: the market is saturated by people without fantasy that publish games all the same to other games, just changing a bit the graphics.
And there's only so much money running around in the videogames market. If you offer nothing, you get nothing. As easy as that. Even if your nothing costed you years of time, it's still nothing. No fun. Nothing new. Same as thousands of other games. Just don't do it. If you can't imagine a new game concept, just don't embark into development of another clone.
Sup
again? this video
People push this dumb notion of work-life balance. That's fine if you want to pursue it. Don't act like all of us want that. I don't want it and I don't need it. I happen to enjoy my work and I'm sorry you don't. If I want to grind out nights and weekends for work, so be it. Stop telling me not to.
THIS IS FALSE INFORMATION I HAVE CREATED MANY "INDIE GAMES" AND HAVE BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL!! THOMAS WHY YOU LIE?
The most useless, generic piece of adivce ever. "Think about marketing", "work hard", "be original", "be lucky", "read lots of books". The very serious question asked to the veteran of the industry. No disrespect, but games created in the 90s had absolutelly different landscape of industry. It would be more propriate to find someone successful who made their success from scratch, not carry over from the successes from 30 years ago.
If I would have to advice someone, those would be my go tos:
- just because your game is original it doesn't mean it's good or will be a sales hit, a well known concepts but with improvements or twists sell much better. Also, just because you think your project us original, it does not mean it is.
- make the game you can deliver. If you are solo dev, don't make TPP action RPG, it will be crap
- give your game and studio identity, a quirky name, marketing strategy, customer outreach, something that stands out.
- done is better than perfect
First
support ur local indie games
tl:dr be a savant