It's only a carbine if it comes from the carbine region of France, otherwise it's a sparkling short rifle. EDIT: I get notifications about this comment every few days. This is apparently my legacy.
I had to look it up: "The Oxford English Dictionary suggests that the origin of carbine is the word escarrabin. This was an occupational word which described a mortician, one who prepared a corpse for burial. Well as they say, somebody has to do it, although quite how this squares with a short firearm is not explained." Another entry linked the name to firearms by way of it also being an old French name for "carrion beetle" due to the association with corpses, and, that name was also used by the French for Flemish archers.
Blame camera battery capacity. :< If only civilian sector would develope camera equipment that works with AC transformer and a wire. More seriously though, I wouldn't mind some proper drunken history of weapons, arms, and tanks.. which this could have developed if it were hour or two longer. :p
On the note of "Silliest disable of an armored vehicle," during WWII one British Major Digby Tatham-Warter disabled a German armoured car by sticking the point of an umbrella through the vision slit and poking the driver in the eye
Ref. 'pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/tatham_warter.htm' April 2014. "On another occasion he used the rolled up umbrella to in-effect disable a German armoured car, simply by thrusting it through an observation slit in the vehicle and incapacitating the driver."
The Molotov cocktail (specifically the finnish-refined petrol bomb "Molotov cocktail" as opposed to petrol bombs in general) actually started out as a finnish anti-tank weapon during the winter war. You'd throw the burning bottle into the air intake (after potentially having jammed the track with a wooden log) of the T-26 tank and the engine would suck the flames in, disabling the tank. Alternatively on other tanks (including atleast most of the modern tanks as far as I know) you can throw the molotov on the engine bed and have the burning liquid drip down into the engine supposedly with the same effect, though obviously nowadays actually getting close enough to a tank to be able to use one without dying is quite the challenge in itself. The fire bottle is still mentioned as a makeshift anti-tank weapon in the official finnish army manual, though. The name was given to it by finns in response to the USSR minister of foreign affairs Vyacheslav Molotov stating that USSR hasn't bombed finnish civilians but rather dropped food supplies to the starving people. Finns started referring to soviet bombs as "molotov's breadbaskets", so they named the bottle "molotov's cocktail" as a drink to go with the food.
@ur momTechnically "Molotov cocktails" were first used in winter war, fire bottles in general were not. Their use in the spanish civil war is exactly why I made it clear I'm specifically referring to "Molotov cocktails" and not fire bottles in general. Molotovs were manufactured in Finland on an industrial scale with more reliable mechanism using storm matches to light them up, which wasn't the case for the fire bottles used in Spain (as far as I know). Despite being essentially the same concept, there's still a minor difference, if nothing else then the name "Molotov's cocktail".
@@radialrothary Technically they were named first as the "Molotov cocktail" in the Winter War, not used, they were used before. Giving it a different name doesn't make it a different thing. Arguably we can go back to naptha and Greek fire with use, but certainly the Spanish Civil War. Finland is hardly the first country in the world to mass produce liquor on an industrial scale, Scots beat them to it if no one else. The company that made them in the Winter War was a liquor company (actually the Finnish company that has the legal monopoly on liquor, Alko), in a distillery, and then they tied matches to it, and they did it in response to a demand part way through, not in dedicated military factory as military equipment in preparation for the war or a conflict. You have misunderstood the meaning of the word "technically". Also, the "petrol bombs" were used by both sides in the Spanish Civil War, the Brit "Tom Wintringham", does not specify that he used them against T-26s (but they were common both sides eventually). Early on most of the T-26 losses were to the Fascists and arguably they came up with the idea, Franco gave specific orders about doing it and then it became popular apparently. The Japanese also used petrol bombs at Khalkin Gol, but there is a debate to what effectiveness, the Japanese claimed hundreds of kills, out of proportion with the Soviet loss records (they claim only 5-10% were to petrol bombs, www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/battles/khalkhin_gol/losses.htm). Also of note and related to what he was talking about when it comes to tank on tank combat, the Japanese did not have a lot in the way of good tanks for fighting other tanks. Their primary tanks in Khalkin Gol were intended for infantry combat (type 95s, 89s, 97s and type 94 and 97 tankettes. Math comes out to 38 57mm cannons of which four were short barrelled and meant specifically for HE, 129 shells fired. 39 37mm cannons which were considered a little underpowered and fired 1100 shells. The remainder had mostly or only machine guns, and fired some 16000 rounds). The Japanese specifically noted that their 37mm was not so great compared to the T-26's 45mm in range or effectiveness, there is also a comment that the "Russians were good shots too!" That's the largest tank battle in that had occurred to date, with nearly 700 tanks and tankettes (although like 550 were Soviet, so fairly one sided). The Japs used theirs to charge the artillery, these are the same people that push bayonets on squad machine guns, although also scopes which turned out to be more useful after some tests against the Yanks.
@@Lowlandlord You're arguing against a couple strawmen here. I never claimed Finland was the first to use petrol bombs, I'm saying that a petrol bomb first referred to as "Molotov Cocktail" (by its users) originates from the Winter War, even if the concept existed prior to that, which I am absolutely not denying. And no, Molotov Cocktails and petrol bombs aren't entirely synonymous in this context. Giving an existing concept a different name indeed doesn't make it a different thing. Refining an existing concept and giving the refined version a different name more or less does. Just because a concept already exists does not mean you cannot refine it and then talk about the use of the refined version with the new name, especially if you specify you're referring to the new version, not the concept in general, which I already specified twice. The Spanish Civil War saw the use of petrol bombs against tanks, fine, not at all what I'm arguing against - the finns took the concept and refined it and gave it a new name, this refined mass produced version referred to as "Molotov Cocktail" was first used in the Winter War. So yes, "technically" the finnish-refined petrol bombs referred to as "Molotov Cocktail" were indeed first used in the Winter War, which is my entire point. If it wasn't perfectly clear earlier (which I admit it may not have been), then I apologize and hope you understand my point better now. I've edited my original comment to be slightly more clear about this. As for the production, I agree Finland is hardly the first country in the world to mass produce liquor on an industrial scale, though I don't see how is this related to the discussion at hand. Yes, Alko produced Molotovs, because they obviously had the tools for it. Why on earth would you not produce petrol bombs somewhere where they already have all the required machinery? No, a mix of gasoline and tar is not exactly "liquor", thus liquor production (such as what the Scots have been doing) has very little to do with this. Mass produced Molotovs were absolutely not normal bottles of liquor from the production line with a couple matches slapped onto them. They were intended as petrol bombs from the very beginning of the production line. Either way the fact remains they were indeed mass produced, which is all I was saying.
@@SonsOfLorgar The exact mix varied quite a bit, though. Most finnish sources describe it as a mix of spirit and gasoline or petrol and rubbing alcohol (or sometimes even kerosene), mixed with [a spoonful of] tar. Those specific matches are known as storm matches (or alternatively as bengal sticks) in finnish, so apologies if that's not appropriate in english and thank you for the correction.
According to Roger Hall (Who ended up in the OSS, his memoir is 'You're stepping on my cloak and dagger'), a French Maquisard found a German tank sitting in a hedgerow, all ready and waiting for a Sherman or two. He climbed on the tank; knocked on a hatch, announcing 'Mail for you'. the occupants opened the hatch, he delivered a few pre-paid grenades, and left before any complaints could be heard. If it works, it's not stupid. Especially if you survive.
@eric kowalski feels like one of thoes it probably happen the exact exchange of word is probably off. I mean if you can get the enemy to open the hatch do it. especially if your not expecting it. heck we had enemy solider walk into other bases in war because no one was thinking it can happen and regulation was lax as a result. it was not afterwards but for some time you could as long as you could pass the first glanse and look like you belong there walk into a smaller base and do anything that was not to oblivious. sure all it took was one alert German and you was neck deep in trouble.
"Hostile, Engaged, 1 o'clock! RPG!" "Eh, could be worse." "Could be worse?! He's got an RPG and we're in a bloody non-upgraded BRADLY!" "Could be getting stabbed....."
Counterpoint, from the Seventy Maxims of Maximally-Effective Mercenaries: Maxim 43: If it's stupid and it works, it's still stupid and you're lucky. Corollary to this is Maxim 42: "They'll never expect this," means, "I want to try something stupid."
Concerning the M85 MG apparently needing a "beer" can to help with feeding, this is something early M2s experienced as well. My grandpa was an Armorer in WW2, and he swore by the Mott's Apple Sauce can to solve feed problems in their MGs. Though replicating a problem from 50 years earlier is itself a mark against the M85.
If you look at footage from Vietnam,the Huey door gunners used I believe a spaghetti can( no idea why) just below the feed. There is at least one story that the bad guys shooting back hit a can,spraying the door gunner and the rest of his crew started shouting the gunner had been hit. He had,but with spaghetti sauce. The writer was matter of fact,so using a particular full can was widespread.
paul manson paul manson that had to do with the poor belt feed pull of the M60 trying to drag the belt out through several feet of feed chute. The belt pull was enough for reliable feeding of short belts from ammo cans right next to the M60 as intended in the infantry roll but was inadequate for the long belts in remote ammo cans typically used in door gun configurations.
@@mikemcginley6309 The M85 on the tanks I served on were either crap or worked flawlessly. As in the video, it had to do with the dedication of the operator to following the operator's manual & PMCS. I was never a TC on an M60A1/A3 but had TCs that could get them to work well. A buddy of mine was a TC on an LVTP-7 and hated the M85 due to the long vertical feed chute for the ammo, he said it would never fire more than 2 or 3 rounds before a malfunction.
If I remember correctly, the Finns used ski troopers to harass the Soviets, the Soviet infantry and tanks would pursue the Finns on skis, the Finns would lead them across this small open glades, where the Finnish artillery would then shell the Soviets. The artillery didn't need to hit the tanks, just hit the ice the tanks were crossing, and politely explain that they weren't crossing a field, but a small lake, and sink the tanks.
Motti is Finnish for chopping a big piece of wood into smaller fire wood. A Russian column would be halted by a road block, a party would seal off the retreat, then the column would be "chopped" into small pieces that could be defeated in detail.
THERE ARE NO "SKI TROOPS" IN FINLAND. Skiing is a form of transportation. Every single soldier in the finnish military since for ever is to be able to skii. Its the same as saying "heres the special boot wearing troops, they are special because they wear boots"
@@cheesuschrist8248 I can totally see why you would think that. My response was kind of an add on to the one previous about the bottle not emptying itself, and a jab at the idea that just because Scotland and part of Ireland are in the UK, calling natives of those countries Englishmen can be seen as mildly insulting. As OP said British tank, I went the direction you can see. And I can see I am still needing more sleep, as this kinda rambles, sorry.
Ian, Nicholas, you owe me a lamb roast. I was listening to you two brilliant chaps whilst doing dinner and over did the lamb. Great vid, look forward to more. :)
Given Ian's doubts about bullpup rifles, and Nicholas's enthusiasm for them, I'd love to see a debate (or Desert Brutality shootoff!) between them about the pros vs. cons.
If I recall most of Ian's misgivings come from application, ie he doesn't see any advantage to a bullpup for a private individual looking for a personal firearm, but he recognises their value in a military context where you're getting in and out of/ having to engage in fire from vehicles and small spaces much more often
There is next to last question about strangest way to kill a tank and 'digging a pit' was mentioned. I think it actually happened during Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 30s. Ethiopeans destroyed a number of Italian tankettes by luring them into such traps and killing crews with spears through the view-ports. It is probably the strangest way to defeat a tank that I know.
And then there was the time that the M8 GMC (M5 light tank with a snub nosed howitzer) took out a Panther during the Battle of the Bulge. The Panther drove by the M8 in the dark of night which was off the side of the road. The M8 took a shot at the back of the Panther. It didn't do any real damage, but when the Panther's commander opened the hatch on the back of the turret to see what the "thump" was, the M8 put another round in through the open hatch.
@@DarknessInferno15 No, I'm telling it straight. The M8 Light Armored Car isn't the same thing as the M8 Gun Motor Carriage. It's just the Army nomenclature of the day. Each type of equipment, i.e. medium tank, half track, rifle... had its own series that counted up through the integers in order. M1 medium tank was followed by the M2 medium tank, etc. There were some exceptions like the M4 once the Sherman came out. Other series skipped M4 (light tank for example) to avoid confusion. An M4 Sherman along side of an M4 light tank might cause an identification error. But, I also believe there was at least one case of an M8 armored car taking out a Panther during battle as well. More conventionally, it just snuck up on it and shot it in the ass until it burned.
Wow, it's like literally a historical justification for the famous "Spearman kills Tank" situation in Civilization. Although this also makes me wonder... did early tanks not have any glass at all in the viewing ports? Or did only the major viewing ports have glass and there were smaller ones that weren't considered important enough to protect?
@@Mishn0 I'm not sure why you're trying to give me a lecture on nomenclature, I'm well aware of something that basic. I was just saying that the story I read was about an M8 Greyhound taking out a King Tiger during The Battle of the Bulge. I've never heard anything about an M8 HMC doing anything. Hell, I'm pretty sure that it was phased out of US service by the time of The Battle of the Bulge, so it sounds very off to me.
I love when you guys get together (yes you are both 2 of my favorite TH-camrs also). I have a quick story that gets to the rearview camera stuff. When I was in the 101st in 1981 we did a training exercise with the armor guys from nearby Ft. Knox in their shiny new M-1 Abrams. We were bedding down tactically one winter in sleeping bags but no pup tents. We were told the armor would be coming in that night so get between two trees so we do not become caterpillars (which is what we were told armor guys called people in sleeping bags…..oh, squish). I did as I was told and in the later dark night these whining monsters maneuvered and backed up all around us in the pitch black (I now know what the people of Tokyo feel like when Godzilla comes to town). I woke up the next morning and to my horror I saw an M1 rear-end about 25 feet away from me. It had backed up close to me and there were tanks interspersed amongst our sleeping beauties who were all too afraid to move as these things jockeyed for parking spots in the inky dark night. OH JOY! I love the army! former SP4 Max Kohnke Co. C- 2/327th Inf. 101st ABN DIV. Ft. Campbell, KY.
The P90 suddenly seems to make a ton of sense when thinking about the problem of small arms for tankers. Compact, handy, and large mag capacity so you can suppress while you run away.
Chieftan: "So that was an unnecessarily long and overly technical answer to a gun-related question, maybe I'm boring you a bit..." Ian "No no, PLEASE, do continue!"
On the silly ways to kill tanks part of the British Home Guard training doctrine during WWII to kill tanks in built up areas was to hide in a first floor window, tap/knock on the turret as the tank passed below and then drop a grenade or " Molotov cocktail" into the hatch when the enemy opened the hatch to see who was knocking. Though thankfully the Home Guard never had to do this regular forces were said to have employed the tactic on occasion. Great video chaps, always fun when you two get together.
@@dougstubbs9637 Excellent, suppose it shows two good reasons why you don't send unsupported tanks into built up areas. It's just asking for your expensive "Tonka" toy to be taken out by the cheapest of means.
Thanks for the shout-out Nick, 3:50 mark... as I said you could make the M-85 work with proper care and maintained. The old M-73 series co-ax M.G. though couldn't be fixed with anything short of Voodoo magic... and even then, you'd have better luck at a roulette wheel in Vegas... o_0 Thank god they replaced them with M-240's. (Mag-58)
Several US and UK battleships supported the D-Day landings. No tank of that or this era wants to be in the same neighborhood as an incoming capital ship round.
That was the High Technology Test Bed, 9th ID at Ft Lewis WA. My first duty station was in 1st Brigade, 2/1 Inf got the FAV dune buggy, 3/39 Inf got new night vision, 2/39 was testing Canadian wheeled AFV's.
I can only imagine every once in awhile the loo would come in and say "you won't believe how lucky we just got" and then reveal a dune buggy or the like...
Didn't the Finns take to stuffing logs into the tracks of Soviet tanks to immobilize them during the Winter War? Taking out a tank with a great, big stick is pretty "silly" in my book, even if it worked.
@@herknorth8691/videos And from what I've heard about it, it's because they trained the dogs by starving them and then putting food underneath the tanks at the training grounds, which of course were Soviet tanks. So dogs go to the field, hungry, "Oh goody, those are the tanks that have food underneath them!" -> Kaboom!
Being an Australian, I swear that during the 30’s or 40’s we tested the effectiveness of rocks against tank tracks, and only recently the classified photos of an anti-tank rocks where realised by The Australian war memorial. Or something similar to that, can’t remember entirely.
Apparently, the etymology of Carbine ultimately comes from carabin - a cavalry soldier; carabin is derived from the scarab beetle, which in Greek is karabos.
Actually in Greek its skaravaeos (σκαραβαιος). both modern and ancient, not sure about middle ages Greek. karabos (καραβος) is ancient Greek for crab (kavouras/καβουρας in modern)
The one armoured vehicle I would´ve like to have seen in action: Tucker combat car. Safe up to .50cal, even the tires, easily replaceable bulletproof window panes of identical size, radiator deflectors worked similarly, independet suspension, quite some MG mountings/ports and an automatic 37mm gun with 360° traverse and AA-capable elevation in a cupola. Too bad Tucker wasn´t liked by the other car manufacturers that much.
@@TheChieftainsHatch I especially enjoyed drinking along with you both. My tipple of choice was Magnanimous IPA from Ft George Brewery. Thanks to you both for the fun & informative video. fortgeorgebrewery.com/beer/magnanimous-ipa/
As far as I have seen, the Chieftain is a chatterbox even without any liquid booster. Can't think of an appropriate measure of alcohol to get an irish more jolly than usual.
I would say the strangest way a tank was defeated I know of is a story of a soldier who took out a Tiger during the Battle of the Bugle by dropping an apple into it as if it were a grenade. The crew fell for it.
Ian, I beg you to invest in some lav mics. It will improve your audio quality so much Also, the whisky... Is that Midleton Very Rare? That stuff's like $500 a bottle
Ian's stated he hates audio work and isn't great at it. Better sound's not happening until he gets an assistant or the hardware/software becomes really easy.
@@rapter229 About all I can suggest is do some Patreon for his channel and then make detailed suggestions for just that subject. I believe he stated he rarely looks through non Patreon commentary,he just has so much time available.
From what I've seen no one or at least not many people actually sees a TOW or ATGM until it's too late., even though it moves so slow. With 14.5x114mm B-32 it can penetrate through 45mm of hardened steel armour, at 500 meters this drops to around 30-35mm all at 90 degrees. New ammunition which uses discarding sabot and a tungsten core penetrator called although as far as I know not in wide spread use called DGJ02 AP-T is capable of penetrating 20 mm of steel armour at 800 meters at a 50 degree angle. Roughly 14.5x114mm has twice the muzzle energy as 12.7x99mm, 14.5mm is no joke.
Israelis during the 6 day war dodged the wire guided anti tank missles. They would spot the backblast initially (and I'm sure put rounds into that area then dodge the missle when it got to close to compensate for the movement.
I used to work on developmental fuze technologies, focusing around electronic safe-arm devices. It would be incredibly difficult to fit a full-feature fuze into a 25mm shell and give it more than a detonator's worth of bursting charge. It was challenging enough when we were looking into ESAD tech for 40mm high velocity shells. I mean challenging to get the required safety features implemented in the available volume, let alone a main charge. I've given some thought about the 40mm caliber. It is really begging for a redesigned cartridge case to get the same power as the 40x365R in a much smaller action length. IT would aslo be much easier to feed the gun. As was said in the video, the 40mm HV would have a quite useful HE charge (see the work that Bofors has done on the 3P fuze, though that is much too expensive for what is needed) as well as having enough velocity to make APDS work well. From a fuzing perspective, a general purpose, semi flexible HE fuze could double on both AFV and anti-air roles. The ammo could be unified across both roles. The AA gun would need to be a revolver gun at 1000-2000 SPM to get the fire rate high enough for the pop-up and CIWS roles. The AFV gun could be a chaingun, though you could probably cut the firing rate considering that the round would hit so much harder. Both the AA fun in the CIWS role and the AFV guns would need a dual feed mechanism for both HE/MP and APDS. As for the computer needed to accomplish the airburst, there is not a whole lot needed there. All you need is a $0.50 microcontroller, plus a small amount of system hardware.
The 50mm chain gun the US Army is testing actually uses a linkless box feed, through some black magic they've managed to get it dual/select feed from a linkless box of shells.
Can confirm that armories full of M231's exist(at least in 2013), I brushed the dust off of a bunch of them (and wondered how cool it would look to dual-wield them) every once in a while in Kuwait
The classic Russian problem-solving technique In the early rocketry days, Russia had to change its rocket fuel from ethanol to methanol as the troops/launch crew would drink all the fuel
The collab I have been waiting for to happen, has happened. Hahaha. Former military and firearms historian give a laid back yet informative discussion.
1:23:45 As a current Army employee at the Detroit Arsenal, I heartily agree. I firmly believe that we spend more money in the process of not "wasting" money than we would have wasted in the first place.
I've seen and held the M231! I was in B co 3-69 Ar Bat in 3rd ID back in 2009. It is a Bradley company. One of the armory's found some and we had to transferred them out somewhere who knowns where. However 2 of the older guys talk about them and said when they don't jam one trigger squeeze equals one mag dump, not by choose. They used fixed carrying handle uppers and the barrel nut was a huge acme thread so you could thread them in the ports.
always appreciative of veteran non north American fellow NATO nation veterans giving their input on things, always enlightenging ty so much for this tank chieftan and ian
I've watched an occasional video of Chieftain's Hatch but never followed. I have to say after watching this I subscribed, and could listen to him read a phone book
@cody sonnet yes they forced you to invade poland. They forced you to invade Czechoslovakia and Austria. They forced you to attack Denmark and Norway and they forced you into Barbarossa. The forced ypu into shooting civilians by the millions and document those killings on photographic paper and film. They forced Kristalnacht to happen. They forced you to invade Belgium twice. As for the rapes, dont dish it out in the first place.
I don’t have a clue what Cody said, and I don’t want to know. However, I would also like to see that scene, partly because I think the tank might actually win that fight.
Thanks for a great video. Another advantage to the pintle/flex mounted TC or loader machine guns, espcially if they are MMGs and not HMGs is with some mounts you get alot of depression. So if you need to shoot at close in infantry near the tank, espcially to the sides (in a ditch for instance) they fill a niech otherwise only filled by handgrenades/tracks/pistols/carbines. +1 for the 240 over the 0.5 for almost anything a tank does. Our 0.5 was linked to the FCS so it was nice for hitting small targets at 1-1.2 km which is kind of hard to do with a 240. But still, the rate of fire, ammo supply, flexibility of the 240 is awesome. Pop guns - I have to say never have I seen infantry more sad looking then when we would do joint demonstrations and after a platoon or company of infantry would lay down fire, one tank would go up to fire position and make them feel like children playing with toys. Well, maybe when you cruise by them as they are packing 40kg of shit in the rain and you just wave and drive on. Ofcourse back on the base they put the shit down and go to the shower and you spend 3 hours fixing the tank. In the same rain. Small arms -While "helps you get away" is true, I do note the IDF in 1973 found that even an Uzi is not really enough to get away. The result was that IDF crews have a carbine for each crew member. First they were Galils. now ARs.
thank you Ian for this. Mr. Manic Moran is one of my favorite historians, and his book was excellent. He also posted quite a bit on a certain gun forum, so even more appropriate to have him here. you two have a combined wealth of knowledge that has single handedly changed current thinking on a lot of issues.
Thank you both (et al) for this, great continuation to the tie up following the Small Arms of Tanks. I hope you both had and are having a good enough to great festive time IRL. Also the auto genrated subtitles are [insert swear-word] hillarious at times too... " ..squirming bears.." for sturmgehwers, lol, "...Frank frank frank..." for crank crank crank etc roflmao
The name comes from its first users - cavalry troopers called "carabiniers", from the French carabine, from Old French carabin (soldier armed with a musket), whose origin is unclear. One theory connects it to an "ancient engine of war" called a calabre; another connects it to Medieval Latin Calabrinus 'Calabrian';yet another, "less likely", to escarrabin, gravedigger, from the scarab beetle.
Excellent collaboration! Well done! Fictionally, there was an episode of Combat when Sgt. Saunders went one-on-one with a "German" tank and immobilized it by jamming a piece of log between the road wheels. In the Glenn Ford movie Imitation General, IIRC, they smear mud on the vision slits/periscopes of the "German" tank and then wait for the crew to open the TC hatch, drop a grenade in and then sit on the hatch.
I thought the biggest reasoning behind the replacing the 25mm is its anti armor capability. The armored targets like MICV that are supposed to be handled by the M2 have seen noticeable increase in protection. Many MICV are now in the 40 ton range and a 25mm gun will have problem dealing with those.
Possibly also that absolutely no one else uses the 25mm. Few exceptiins here and there, but all the serious players eithet use 30mm or are switching to it in their newest vehicles.
In the Spanish Civil War, some specialised tank hunters used double barrelled shotguns to shoot at the viewing ports of tanks, the theory being that they had a higher chance of getting in because of the spread and the smaller size of the birdshot. They then would close in and kill the tank with hand grenades.
A long time ago,I read an article about the Dunkirk debacle,and a particular Guards unit( no idea how many troops,or which,Scots Guards or the others) was ordered to be a sacrificial unit. The men were long service,and all were trained and notably good shots. The tanks they were facing( no idea which,or how many) were not defeated but backed off from advancing because they literally shot out the periscopic glass from the vision slits. Each tank had spares of course,but they literally used all of them up and the guys with the Enfields just didn't quit. I believe they stayed until the survivors were captured That is essentially all that remains to my memory from that article. Just what it would take to retrieve info on that,no idea. Maybe the battle diaries of the known Guards units at Dunkirk would be a starting point. Who the author of the article,no idea. Personal recollection I think it might have been. Just too many years ago for me.
Home guard training (Specifically that from the Osterly Park boys, mostly former Spanish Civil War international Brigade vets) Suggested a last ditch ambush tactic of throwing a wet blanket over the Drivers position. If it was kerosene that was alight, better for panic effect, but either way, you have blinded the vehicle. Otherwise a blanket soaked in waste engine oil would gum up the drive sprocket of a lighter tank and immobilise it. I can certainly see this working on a panzer 1 or 2
@@donaldmeaker3627 fantastic film, that Sherman attack from the railway tunnel is superb. Everything else, sensibilities wise, that is more 60's But still blooming good fun!
A lot of "Bang" with not a lot of encumberance and not caring if it actually had much impact at the other end.... Hey Ian! I think we found a use for that tooth-rattling V51!
Looks like Midleton Very Rare, the label is from sometime between 1994 and 2016. Having said that, it may be a special release of some sort, because I'd expect it to just say "Irish Whiskey" under the oval at the top, and that doesn't look quite right to me.
@@bohica3264 Watching at the end, it does just say "Irish Whiskey"... not sure of which year this is. Just started following Ian, but Midleton Very Rare is indeed a delicious whiskey
I am not sure who hosted the Q&A, possibly the Chieftain, (see his previous videos about house paint, it looks more like his home than Ian's). In which case the choice of good Irish whiskey is very likely.
My neighbor works for General Dynamics at Tacom and when the Army asked them for a Bradley replacement that had all the same firepower, speed and protection of an Abrams he responded with "So you basically want an Abrams with a trailer?"
Gotta say watching two TH-camrs that I have a lot of respect for based on their opinions , experience and research , is an amazing use of almost 2 hours ! Ian do you ever comment on Quora? I’ve seen “the Chieftan “ there off and on
1:35:05 The 40mm on a Swedish CV 90 IS an old Bofors, slightly modified. I'm pretty sure the cost saving of reusing them played a part in choosing the 40L70.
When I went through basic in 1977 they gave us an M60 and a 50 round belt to familiarize us with it...... These guns had been used and abused, in fact they were beat to shit...... I pulled immediate action on the one I had 3 times before my 5th round went down range..... I vowed never to get behind one again.... And when I got to my home unit I told them to give me any kind of weapon they wanted to, except that M60 POS up to including a fucking sling shot..... So naturally they made me an M60 gunner and I humped the pig for the next 6 1/2 years❗‼❗ Fortunately my Squad Leader had spent 2 tours in Vietnam 2nd Cav. and he tought me to know and love that 23 pounds of scrap iron until I could take it down in a field of tall grass without a moon and put it back together ''with all the parts'' and my baby never failed me from then on till I got out..... Like any woman, you have to learn how to treat her right is all.... If you treat her wrong, sooner or later she'll be up side your head with a #11 cast iron skillet and wanting a divorce and 1/2 your shit....😱😕😋
The guy dropping the grenade down the gun tube got extremely spot-on with the timing, dropped it in as the breech opened and it fell into the turret and set off the ready rounds in the autoloader carousel, no way a grenade could've done anything of note in a loaded gun.
It's only a carbine if it comes from the carbine region of France, otherwise it's a sparkling short rifle.
EDIT: I get notifications about this comment every few days. This is apparently my legacy.
I had to look it up:
"The Oxford English Dictionary suggests that the origin of carbine is the word escarrabin. This was an occupational word which described a mortician, one who prepared a corpse for burial. Well as they say, somebody has to do it, although quite how this squares with a short firearm is not explained."
Another entry linked the name to firearms by way of it also being an old French name for "carrion beetle" due to the association with corpses, and, that name was also used by the French for Flemish archers.
I regret that I have but one like to give.
@@austinowings4904 Now that was funny, I don't care who you are!
I am so going to steal that!
LoL:) just like 'all bourbon is whiskey, but not all whiskey is bourbon' (wink wink)
I feel that nearly 2 hours worth of Ian and Nicolas isn't anywhere near long enough.
Blame camera battery capacity. :< If only civilian sector would develope camera equipment that works with AC transformer and a wire. More seriously though, I wouldn't mind some proper drunken history of weapons, arms, and tanks.. which this could have developed if it were hour or two longer. :p
THAT´S WHAT SHE SAID!!!!
On the note of "Silliest disable of an armored vehicle," during WWII one British Major Digby Tatham-Warter disabled a German armoured car by sticking the point of an umbrella through the vision slit and poking the driver in the eye
That does sound awfully British.
I am not sure if you have the same "source" for this information as I do, but have some "MYSTERY BISCUITS" for that!
Ref. 'pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/tatham_warter.htm' April 2014. "On another occasion he used the rolled up umbrella to in-effect disable a German armoured car, simply by thrusting it through an observation slit in the vehicle and incapacitating the driver."
@@Sen_Kanashimi I don't think I've read anything as painstakingly British in my life, as the accounting of that man's exploits.
Weapon of choice: Brolly
The Molotov cocktail (specifically the finnish-refined petrol bomb "Molotov cocktail" as opposed to petrol bombs in general) actually started out as a finnish anti-tank weapon during the winter war. You'd throw the burning bottle into the air intake (after potentially having jammed the track with a wooden log) of the T-26 tank and the engine would suck the flames in, disabling the tank. Alternatively on other tanks (including atleast most of the modern tanks as far as I know) you can throw the molotov on the engine bed and have the burning liquid drip down into the engine supposedly with the same effect, though obviously nowadays actually getting close enough to a tank to be able to use one without dying is quite the challenge in itself. The fire bottle is still mentioned as a makeshift anti-tank weapon in the official finnish army manual, though.
The name was given to it by finns in response to the USSR minister of foreign affairs Vyacheslav Molotov stating that USSR hasn't bombed finnish civilians but rather dropped food supplies to the starving people. Finns started referring to soviet bombs as "molotov's breadbaskets", so they named the bottle "molotov's cocktail" as a drink to go with the food.
@ur mom oh, that sounds very interesting. Could you provide a source? As a History student I would really love to read more about that.
@ur momTechnically "Molotov cocktails" were first used in winter war, fire bottles in general were not. Their use in the spanish civil war is exactly why I made it clear I'm specifically referring to "Molotov cocktails" and not fire bottles in general.
Molotovs were manufactured in Finland on an industrial scale with more reliable mechanism using storm matches to light them up, which wasn't the case for the fire bottles used in Spain (as far as I know). Despite being essentially the same concept, there's still a minor difference, if nothing else then the name "Molotov's cocktail".
@@radialrothary Technically they were named first as the "Molotov cocktail" in the Winter War, not used, they were used before. Giving it a different name doesn't make it a different thing. Arguably we can go back to naptha and Greek fire with use, but certainly the Spanish Civil War. Finland is hardly the first country in the world to mass produce liquor on an industrial scale, Scots beat them to it if no one else. The company that made them in the Winter War was a liquor company (actually the Finnish company that has the legal monopoly on liquor, Alko), in a distillery, and then they tied matches to it, and they did it in response to a demand part way through, not in dedicated military factory as military equipment in preparation for the war or a conflict. You have misunderstood the meaning of the word "technically".
Also, the "petrol bombs" were used by both sides in the Spanish Civil War, the Brit "Tom Wintringham", does not specify that he used them against T-26s (but they were common both sides eventually). Early on most of the T-26 losses were to the Fascists and arguably they came up with the idea, Franco gave specific orders about doing it and then it became popular apparently.
The Japanese also used petrol bombs at Khalkin Gol, but there is a debate to what effectiveness, the Japanese claimed hundreds of kills, out of proportion with the Soviet loss records (they claim only 5-10% were to petrol bombs, www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/battles/khalkhin_gol/losses.htm). Also of note and related to what he was talking about when it comes to tank on tank combat, the Japanese did not have a lot in the way of good tanks for fighting other tanks. Their primary tanks in Khalkin Gol were intended for infantry combat (type 95s, 89s, 97s and type 94 and 97 tankettes. Math comes out to 38 57mm cannons of which four were short barrelled and meant specifically for HE, 129 shells fired. 39 37mm cannons which were considered a little underpowered and fired 1100 shells. The remainder had mostly or only machine guns, and fired some 16000 rounds). The Japanese specifically noted that their 37mm was not so great compared to the T-26's 45mm in range or effectiveness, there is also a comment that the "Russians were good shots too!" That's the largest tank battle in that had occurred to date, with nearly 700 tanks and tankettes (although like 550 were Soviet, so fairly one sided). The Japs used theirs to charge the artillery, these are the same people that push bayonets on squad machine guns, although also scopes which turned out to be more useful after some tests against the Yanks.
@@Lowlandlord You're arguing against a couple strawmen here.
I never claimed Finland was the first to use petrol bombs, I'm saying that a petrol bomb first referred to as "Molotov Cocktail" (by its users) originates from the Winter War, even if the concept existed prior to that, which I am absolutely not denying. And no, Molotov Cocktails and petrol bombs aren't entirely synonymous in this context.
Giving an existing concept a different name indeed doesn't make it a different thing. Refining an existing concept and giving the refined version a different name more or less does. Just because a concept already exists does not mean you cannot refine it and then talk about the use of the refined version with the new name, especially if you specify you're referring to the new version, not the concept in general, which I already specified twice.
The Spanish Civil War saw the use of petrol bombs against tanks, fine, not at all what I'm arguing against - the finns took the concept and refined it and gave it a new name, this refined mass produced version referred to as "Molotov Cocktail" was first used in the Winter War. So yes, "technically" the finnish-refined petrol bombs referred to as "Molotov Cocktail" were indeed first used in the Winter War, which is my entire point. If it wasn't perfectly clear earlier (which I admit it may not have been), then I apologize and hope you understand my point better now. I've edited my original comment to be slightly more clear about this.
As for the production, I agree Finland is hardly the first country in the world to mass produce liquor on an industrial scale, though I don't see how is this related to the discussion at hand. Yes, Alko produced Molotovs, because they obviously had the tools for it. Why on earth would you not produce petrol bombs somewhere where they already have all the required machinery? No, a mix of gasoline and tar is not exactly "liquor", thus liquor production (such as what the Scots have been doing) has very little to do with this. Mass produced Molotovs were absolutely not normal bottles of liquor from the production line with a couple matches slapped onto them. They were intended as petrol bombs from the very beginning of the production line. Either way the fact remains they were indeed mass produced, which is all I was saying.
@@SonsOfLorgar The exact mix varied quite a bit, though. Most finnish sources describe it as a mix of spirit and gasoline or petrol and rubbing alcohol (or sometimes even kerosene), mixed with [a spoonful of] tar.
Those specific matches are known as storm matches (or alternatively as bengal sticks) in finnish, so apologies if that's not appropriate in english and thank you for the correction.
A HALO/RvB joke is not something I expected to hear today, but here we are! And I'm happier for it.
Dms110 that is exactly what I was going to comment about.
I came the comments hoping to see this comment! I love RvB so much
timestamp pls
@@SF7PAKISTAN 8:36
Does that joke originate from RvB though? If so, that’s hilarious.
"Unmanned 'anti-unmanned-thing' thing"
-The Chieftain, 2019
According to Roger Hall (Who ended up in the OSS, his memoir is 'You're stepping on my cloak and dagger'), a French Maquisard found a German tank sitting in a hedgerow, all ready and waiting for a Sherman or two.
He climbed on the tank; knocked on a hatch, announcing 'Mail for you'. the occupants opened the hatch, he delivered a few pre-paid grenades, and left before any complaints could be heard.
If it works, it's not stupid. Especially if you survive.
The Bardic Knock Spell, my friends
@eric kowalski Why so salty ?
@eric kowalski feels like one of thoes it probably happen the exact exchange of word is probably off.
I mean if you can get the enemy to open the hatch do it.
especially if your not expecting it.
heck we had enemy solider walk into other bases in war because no one was thinking it can happen and regulation was lax as a result.
it was not afterwards but for some time you could as long as you could pass the first glanse and look like you belong there walk into a smaller base and do anything that was not to oblivious. sure all it took was one alert German and you was neck deep in trouble.
Hey the SEALS really did walk through Obama’s place whispering “Obama,” until he poked his head out.
@@avae5343 oh well, they did invade his country
"Why are there six pedals if there's only four directions?" Never thought I'd hear Red vs. Blue quoted on Forgotten Weapons :D
Yeah the Chieftain does that once in awhile. He sometimes even quotes animes in his videos to our amusement.
@@Sondie Don't forget "More DAKA" from Warhammer. ;)
th-cam.com/video/lDVfLh_O0LA/w-d-xo.html
CABOOSE!
Umm, Sheila. Nice tank lady. Please open the door.
"It's going to be a significant emotional event for the guy on the receiving end of the 20mm rounds."
That's a gift for understatement right there.
I get the feeling The Chieftan's radio chatter tended to sound a lot like a Month Python skit.
"Hostile, Engaged, 1 o'clock! RPG!"
"Eh, could be worse."
"Could be worse?! He's got an RPG and we're in a bloody non-upgraded BRADLY!"
"Could be getting stabbed....."
@@fien111 "We have a 25mm chain gun, what does he have? A flying grenade. Gunner, remove him from my line o' vision."
@@GoredonTheDestroyer What's that say on the side of the rocket?
"People called Americans they go the house"?
@@fien111 "Forget about the guy with the RPG. The guy at 11 O' Clock is armed with a banana!"
"Sir, there appears to be a small white rabbit in the middle of the road, should I advance?"
Counterpoint, from the Seventy Maxims of Maximally-Effective Mercenaries:
Maxim 43: If it's stupid and it works, it's still stupid and you're lucky.
Corollary to this is Maxim 42: "They'll never expect this," means, "I want to try something stupid."
70 Maxims? The Soviet troops on the chinese border would like to know your location.
(I know it's not the same "maxim")
Concerning the M85 MG apparently needing a "beer" can to help with feeding, this is something early M2s experienced as well. My grandpa was an Armorer in WW2, and he swore by the Mott's Apple Sauce can to solve feed problems in their MGs.
Though replicating a problem from 50 years earlier is itself a mark against the M85.
If you look at footage from Vietnam,the Huey door gunners used I believe a spaghetti can( no idea why) just below the feed. There is at least one story that the bad guys shooting back hit a can,spraying the door gunner and the rest of his crew started shouting the gunner had been hit. He had,but with spaghetti sauce. The writer was matter of fact,so using a particular full can was widespread.
I never had an M85 that wasn't junk.
paul manson paul manson that had to do with the poor belt feed pull of the M60 trying to drag the belt out through several feet of feed chute. The belt pull was enough for reliable feeding of short belts from ammo cans right next to the M60 as intended in the infantry roll but was inadequate for the long belts in remote ammo cans typically used in door gun configurations.
@@mikemcginley6309 The M85 on the tanks I served on were either crap or worked flawlessly. As in the video, it had to do with the dedication of the operator to following the operator's manual & PMCS. I was never a TC on an M60A1/A3 but had TCs that could get them to work well. A buddy of mine was a TC on an LVTP-7 and hated the M85 due to the long vertical feed chute for the ammo, he said it would never fire more than 2 or 3 rounds before a malfunction.
If I remember correctly, the Finns used ski troopers to harass the Soviets, the Soviet infantry and tanks would pursue the Finns on skis, the Finns would lead them across this small open glades, where the Finnish artillery would then shell the Soviets.
The artillery didn't need to hit the tanks, just hit the ice the tanks were crossing, and politely explain that they weren't crossing a field, but a small lake, and sink the tanks.
That sounds like something out of a Looney Tunes sketch. Given the two countries we're talking about, though, I can see it happening.
Motti is Finnish for chopping a big piece of wood into smaller fire wood. A Russian column would be halted by a road block, a party would seal off the retreat, then the column would be "chopped" into small pieces that could be defeated in detail.
THERE ARE NO "SKI TROOPS" IN FINLAND. Skiing is a form of transportation. Every single soldier in the finnish military since for ever is to be able to skii. Its the same as saying "heres the special boot wearing troops, they are special because they wear boots"
@@ROBERTN-ut2il not quite, it is a measurement of wood (meter x meter x meter) and there is an english word for it, the stere
best part was when Chieftain couldnt remember name of British tank that came after Centurion... Priceless :)
Too be fair, that bottle didn't empty itself
Well, also, he's not an Englishman, so that doesn't exactly surprise me.
@@cheesuschrist8248 I can totally see why you would think that. My response was kind of an add on to the one previous about the bottle not emptying itself, and a jab at the idea that just because Scotland and part of Ireland are in the UK, calling natives of those countries Englishmen can be seen as mildly insulting. As OP said British tank, I went the direction you can see.
And I can see I am still needing more sleep, as this kinda rambles, sorry.
Ian, Nicholas, you owe me a lamb roast. I was listening to you two brilliant chaps whilst doing dinner and over did the lamb. Great vid, look forward to more. :)
Oops. Sorry.
Those crossovers with history-weapons related experts are pure gold 🥇
Given Ian's doubts about bullpup rifles, and Nicholas's enthusiasm for them, I'd love to see a debate (or Desert Brutality shootoff!) between them about the pros vs. cons.
If I recall most of Ian's misgivings come from application, ie he doesn't see any advantage to a bullpup for a private individual looking for a personal firearm, but he recognises their value in a military context where you're getting in and out of/ having to engage in fire from vehicles and small spaces much more often
@@imagifyer As a main weapon a bullpup have its flaws.
but if you have a tank well the bullpup is the second to last thing you use.
*Panzerfaust puts a hole in a tank and kills half the crew*
Tank Crew: Well that's inconvenient.
in the next episode: "gun Jesus and the chieftain enter a WWII museum"
I'd pay good money to see that!
And they were never seen again
@@oliver5230 just follow by ears the continuous flow of anecdotes and trivia about tanks and small arms...
Next days prime time news....ambitious broad daylight tank heist Indicates the 2nd comming...the end is nigh..
The museum explodes due to combined awesomeness
There is next to last question about strangest way to kill a tank and 'digging a pit' was mentioned. I think it actually happened during Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 30s. Ethiopeans destroyed a number of Italian tankettes by luring them into such traps and killing crews with spears through the view-ports. It is probably the strangest way to defeat a tank that I know.
And then there was the time that the M8 GMC (M5 light tank with a snub nosed howitzer) took out a Panther during the Battle of the Bulge. The Panther drove by the M8 in the dark of night which was off the side of the road. The M8 took a shot at the back of the Panther. It didn't do any real damage, but when the Panther's commander opened the hatch on the back of the turret to see what the "thump" was, the M8 put another round in through the open hatch.
@@Mishn0 Pretty sure you're remembering that wrong. It was an M8 Greyhound, not an M8 GMC.
@@DarknessInferno15 No, I'm telling it straight. The M8 Light Armored Car isn't the same thing as the M8 Gun Motor Carriage. It's just the Army nomenclature of the day. Each type of equipment, i.e. medium tank, half track, rifle... had its own series that counted up through the integers in order. M1 medium tank was followed by the M2 medium tank, etc. There were some exceptions like the M4 once the Sherman came out. Other series skipped M4 (light tank for example) to avoid confusion. An M4 Sherman along side of an M4 light tank might cause an identification error.
But, I also believe there was at least one case of an M8 armored car taking out a Panther during battle as well. More conventionally, it just snuck up on it and shot it in the ass until it burned.
Wow, it's like literally a historical justification for the famous "Spearman kills Tank" situation in Civilization.
Although this also makes me wonder... did early tanks not have any glass at all in the viewing ports? Or did only the major viewing ports have glass and there were smaller ones that weren't considered important enough to protect?
@@Mishn0 I'm not sure why you're trying to give me a lecture on nomenclature, I'm well aware of something that basic. I was just saying that the story I read was about an M8 Greyhound taking out a King Tiger during The Battle of the Bulge. I've never heard anything about an M8 HMC doing anything. Hell, I'm pretty sure that it was phased out of US service by the time of The Battle of the Bulge, so it sounds very off to me.
"This is not going to be half an hour."
*checks the time stamp*
26 minutes out of 1 hour 52.
WOO BOY
Now all that's left is a collab with Military Aviation History and there can be a full-on combined arms Q&A
Add Drachinifel
Every time I watch when Ian introduces himself the wife says "Hi Ian"
LOL My gf perks up as soon as she hears "hi I'm"..... Her "are you watching Ian again? "
Someone sounds interested.
My wife refers to him as, "your ponytail friend."
@@GunFunZS ooofff
Joe Blow That's not an oof though.
I was dying when he said its a significant emotional event for the guy receiving the 20mm.
“Infinity war is the most ambitious crossover in history”
Ian and The Chieftain: “hold my scotch”
They are drinking Irish whiskey ..
They seem to be holding it very well by themselves.
Bertie Bollocks Eh, smoothness of whiskey doesn’t matter. It’s all about flavor.
Passed out watching youtube and woke up the next day with this video playing. Very interesting.
I love when you guys get together (yes you are both 2 of my favorite TH-camrs also). I have a quick story that gets to the rearview camera stuff. When I was in the 101st in 1981 we did a training exercise with the armor guys from nearby Ft. Knox in their shiny new M-1 Abrams. We were bedding down tactically one winter in sleeping bags but no pup tents. We were told the armor would be coming in that night so get between two trees so we do not become caterpillars (which is what we were told armor guys called people in sleeping bags…..oh, squish). I did as I was told and in the later dark night these whining monsters maneuvered and backed up all around us in the pitch black (I now know what the people of Tokyo feel like when Godzilla comes to town). I woke up the next morning and to my horror I saw an M1 rear-end about 25 feet away from me. It had backed up close to me and there were tanks interspersed amongst our sleeping beauties who were all too afraid to move as these things jockeyed for parking spots in the inky dark night.
OH JOY!
I love the army!
former SP4 Max Kohnke
Co. C- 2/327th Inf. 101st ABN DIV. Ft. Campbell, KY.
maxsmodels I was born 39 years ago today in 1981! Thanks for the rad story and your service!!
The P90 suddenly seems to make a ton of sense when thinking about the problem of small arms for tankers. Compact, handy, and large mag capacity so you can suppress while you run away.
Chieftan: "So that was an unnecessarily long and overly technical answer to a gun-related question, maybe I'm boring you a bit..."
Ian "No no, PLEASE, do continue!"
Two guys get drunk and turn a 30 minute conversation into twp hours... sounds like every time I've gone to the pub with mates. Love it.
OMG, the forgotten weapon is on fire!
Ivan Boykiv this cooperation is a significant emotional event. ;-)
The fact that they don’t cooperate more often fills me with sadness.
Browning's Ghost sees an M85.
Browning: Look how they massacred my boy.
@cody sonnet Dude, go away.
@@SonsOfLorgar what happened here
Holy shit, I'm not the only 19-series to prefer the 240 over Ma Deuce. Thank you for saying that, Nick.
Can I quote you that I'm not alone?
@@TheChieftainsHatch Please do.
Former 11B mech and I would agree. More versatile, higher cyclic rate, easier to dismount.
@@commanderrazor wait til this new ~18lb, 2000m effective range 338 Norma mag LMG gets broader use. That thing looks awesome
Honestly, I get why you do. Higher cyclic rate makes it easier to hit shit with it.
As a fan and patron of both channels, this is fantastic, thanks very much guys.
At around 25.00 was that Sofilien drunk texting the chieftain on his Apple watch....
I'll volunteer to have her drunk text me instead
On the silly ways to kill tanks part of the British Home Guard training doctrine during WWII to kill tanks in built up areas was to hide in a first floor window, tap/knock on the turret as the tank passed below and then drop a grenade or " Molotov cocktail" into the hatch when the enemy opened the hatch to see who was knocking. Though thankfully the Home Guard never had to do this regular forces were said to have employed the tactic on occasion.
Great video chaps, always fun when you two get together.
@@dougstubbs9637 Excellent, suppose it shows two good reasons why you don't send unsupported tanks into built up areas. It's just asking for your expensive "Tonka" toy to be taken out by the cheapest of means.
@@dougstubbs9637 1956.
Thanks for the shout-out Nick, 3:50 mark... as I said you could make the M-85 work with proper care and maintained. The old M-73 series co-ax M.G. though couldn't be fixed with anything short of Voodoo magic... and even then, you'd have better luck at a roulette wheel in Vegas... o_0 Thank god they replaced them with M-240's. (Mag-58)
I love the image of M3 Lee crew trying to aim the 75mm and 30mm while the driver is just swerving like a drunk.
Stupid when you start thinking about it but the battleship HMS Nelson took out a number of Tigers.
Why is it stupid
Well, if Tigers get close enough to the coast that the Royal Navy can hit them, more fool them!
Several US and UK battleships supported the D-Day landings. No tank of that or this era wants to be in the same neighborhood as an incoming capital ship round.
That's nothing - the SUBMARINE HMS Safari managed to take out a tank with a torpedo... It was aiming for a landing craft, but it still counts!
During the Boer war - 1899-1902 - two Boer Commandos took on a British Cruiser.
Admittedly not much of a fight.
That was the High Technology Test Bed, 9th ID at Ft Lewis WA. My first duty station was in 1st Brigade, 2/1 Inf got the FAV dune buggy, 3/39 Inf got new night vision, 2/39 was testing Canadian wheeled AFV's.
I can only imagine every once in awhile the loo would come in and say "you won't believe how lucky we just got" and then reveal a dune buggy or the like...
Didn't the Finns take to stuffing logs into the tracks of Soviet tanks to immobilize them during the Winter War? Taking out a tank with a great, big stick is pretty "silly" in my book, even if it worked.
The Russians tried using dogs with explosives strapped on to their backs.
Ohhh, I forgot about that one! For extra silliness points, sometimes the dogs ran under Soviet tanks by mistake. Roops!
What's worse is Ethiopian soldiers tearing off the drive chain of Italian tanks at the cost of their arms. That is dedication.
@@herknorth8691/videos And from what I've heard about it, it's because they trained the dogs by starving them and then putting food underneath the tanks at the training grounds, which of course were Soviet tanks. So dogs go to the field, hungry, "Oh goody, those are the tanks that have food underneath them!" -> Kaboom!
Being an Australian, I swear that during the 30’s or 40’s we tested the effectiveness of rocks against tank tracks, and only recently the classified photos of an anti-tank rocks where realised by The Australian war memorial. Or something similar to that, can’t remember entirely.
How did you get indoor wind noise?
Probably air conditioning or a heater.
@bigbenhoward
Maybe even a purpose built RV towed behind Sherman?
Ate some peas?
Beans
Its not wind noise. Its fabric and beard hairs rubbing on the mics.
Apparently, the etymology of Carbine ultimately comes from carabin - a cavalry soldier; carabin is derived from the scarab beetle, which in Greek is karabos.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/carabin
@@nirfz Yes, carabiner hooks come from the French cavalry.
Actually in Greek its skaravaeos (σκαραβαιος). both modern and ancient, not sure about middle ages Greek. karabos (καραβος) is ancient Greek for crab (kavouras/καβουρας in modern)
The one armoured vehicle I would´ve like to have seen in action:
Tucker combat car.
Safe up to .50cal, even the tires, easily replaceable bulletproof window panes of identical size, radiator deflectors worked similarly, independet suspension, quite some MG mountings/ports and an automatic 37mm gun with 360° traverse and AA-capable elevation in a cupola.
Too bad Tucker wasn´t liked by the other car manufacturers that much.
How many "toots" of that whiskey did they drink before filming? The Chieftain seems particularly jolly.
You only need one to be jolly.
I don't need any to be jolly
@@TheChieftainsHatch I especially enjoyed drinking along with you both. My tipple of choice was Magnanimous IPA from Ft George Brewery. Thanks to you both for the fun & informative video. fortgeorgebrewery.com/beer/magnanimous-ipa/
@@TheChieftainsHatch I am sure it did not hinder your jolliness at all lol.
As far as I have seen, the Chieftain is a chatterbox even without any liquid booster.
Can't think of an appropriate measure of alcohol to get an irish more jolly than usual.
I would say the strangest way a tank was defeated I know of is a story of a soldier who took out a Tiger during the Battle of the Bugle by dropping an apple into it as if it were a grenade. The crew fell for it.
Two hour "The Ian n Nic show"? Nice.
Ian, I beg you to invest in some lav mics. It will improve your audio quality so much
Also, the whisky... Is that Midleton Very Rare? That stuff's like $500 a bottle
Sure looks like it. About $200 for 2018-19 vintage.
Ian's stated he hates audio work and isn't great at it. Better sound's not happening until he gets an assistant or the hardware/software becomes really easy.
@@LN997-i8x Audio is a pain :D I can relate
@@rapter229 About all I can suggest is do some Patreon for his channel and then make detailed suggestions for just that subject. I believe he stated he rarely looks through non Patreon commentary,he just has so much time available.
Here I thought I was ballin when taking Johny Walker blue from work in order to seem cultured.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE make this a yearly event!!
Quarterly or Bi-Annually please.
also make it a round table discussion and include Othias and Military History Visualized too.
From what I've seen no one or at least not many people actually sees a TOW or ATGM until it's too late., even though it moves so slow. With 14.5x114mm B-32 it can penetrate through 45mm of hardened steel armour, at 500 meters this drops to around 30-35mm all at 90 degrees. New ammunition which uses discarding sabot and a tungsten core penetrator called although as far as I know not in wide spread use called DGJ02 AP-T is capable of penetrating 20 mm of steel armour at 800 meters at a 50 degree angle. Roughly 14.5x114mm has twice the muzzle energy as 12.7x99mm, 14.5mm is no joke.
Machines detect them quite easily tho, there’s quite a lot of videos of T-90s deflecting missiles with its Shtora-1 in Syria
Israelis during the 6 day war dodged the wire guided anti tank missles. They would spot the backblast initially (and I'm sure put rounds into that area then dodge the missle when it got to close to compensate for the movement.
I used to work on developmental fuze technologies, focusing around electronic safe-arm devices.
It would be incredibly difficult to fit a full-feature fuze into a 25mm shell and give it more than a detonator's worth of bursting charge. It was challenging enough when we were looking into ESAD tech for 40mm high velocity shells. I mean challenging to get the required safety features implemented in the available volume, let alone a main charge.
I've given some thought about the 40mm caliber. It is really begging for a redesigned cartridge case to get the same power as the 40x365R in a much smaller action length. IT would aslo be much easier to feed the gun. As was said in the video, the 40mm HV would have a quite useful HE charge (see the work that Bofors has done on the 3P fuze, though that is much too expensive for what is needed) as well as having enough velocity to make APDS work well. From a fuzing perspective, a general purpose, semi flexible HE fuze could double on both AFV and anti-air roles. The ammo could be unified across both roles. The AA gun would need to be a revolver gun at 1000-2000 SPM to get the fire rate high enough for the pop-up and CIWS roles. The AFV gun could be a chaingun, though you could probably cut the firing rate considering that the round would hit so much harder. Both the AA fun in the CIWS role and the AFV guns would need a dual feed mechanism for both HE/MP and APDS.
As for the computer needed to accomplish the airburst, there is not a whole lot needed there. All you need is a $0.50 microcontroller, plus a small amount of system hardware.
The 50mm chain gun the US Army is testing actually uses a linkless box feed, through some black magic they've managed to get it dual/select feed from a linkless box of shells.
Predatron AU so you pull the trigger, witchcraft happens and the gun goes boom?
Niiice!
This. This is the kind of TH-cam collaboration we’ve all been waiting for.
Can confirm that armories full of M231's exist(at least in 2013), I brushed the dust off of a bunch of them (and wondered how cool it would look to dual-wield them) every once in a while in Kuwait
"Just poison the vodka!" - the amount of lateral thinking in this video is off the charts.
Well, poison some of it. I'd say every tenth or twentieth bottle... You want them to keep drinking it.
The classic Russian problem-solving technique In the early rocketry days, Russia had to change its rocket fuel from ethanol to methanol as the troops/launch crew would drink all the fuel
Wonderful collab. Love the 'amateur' historian crowd on TH-cam, I really think you guys are doing something great with education and history
I think Nicholas meets all the requirements to be just a full professional historian. He's actively doing archival research
The collab I have been waiting for to happen, has happened. Hahaha.
Former military and firearms historian give a laid back yet informative discussion.
1:23:45 As a current Army employee at the Detroit Arsenal, I heartily agree. I firmly believe that we spend more money in the process of not "wasting" money than we would have wasted in the first place.
I've seen and held the M231! I was in B co 3-69 Ar Bat in 3rd ID back in 2009. It is a Bradley company. One of the armory's found some and we had to transferred them out somewhere who knowns where. However 2 of the older guys talk about them and said when they don't jam one trigger squeeze equals one mag dump, not by choose. They used fixed carrying handle uppers and the barrel nut was a huge acme thread so you could thread them in the ports.
always appreciative of veteran non north American fellow NATO nation veterans giving their input on things, always enlightenging ty so much for this tank chieftan and ian
The bulk of his military service was in the US Army (possibly still is, I'm not sure if he's fully retired).
Nick is a Major in the CA ANG.
@@blackstone777 But he lives in Texas now. I'm not sure if he said that he's transferring to the Texas National Guard, or if he's fully retired now.
Where is he from?
@@ChiTownGuerrilla Ireland via Texas iirc
I've watched an occasional video of Chieftain's Hatch but never followed. I have to say after watching this I subscribed, and could listen to him read a phone book
Now I would like to see the final stand in "Fury", but in the M2 Medium.
@cody sonnet yes they forced you to invade poland. They forced you to invade Czechoslovakia and Austria. They forced you to attack Denmark and Norway and they forced you into Barbarossa. The forced ypu into shooting civilians by the millions and document those killings on photographic paper and film. They forced Kristalnacht to happen. They forced you to invade Belgium twice. As for the rapes, dont dish it out in the first place.
@cody sonnet yikes
@cody sonnet Can you elaborate on that? My history books seem to disagree.
I don’t have a clue what Cody said, and I don’t want to know. However, I would also like to see that scene, partly because I think the tank might actually win that fight.
@@Shaun_Jones not when the Germans have Panzerfausts
Thanks for a great video.
Another advantage to the pintle/flex mounted TC or loader machine guns, espcially if they are MMGs and not HMGs is
with some mounts you get alot of depression. So if you need to shoot at close in infantry near the tank, espcially to the sides (in a ditch for instance) they fill a niech otherwise only filled by handgrenades/tracks/pistols/carbines.
+1 for the 240 over the 0.5 for almost anything a tank does. Our 0.5 was linked to the FCS so it was nice for hitting small targets at 1-1.2 km which is kind of hard to do with a 240. But still, the rate of fire, ammo supply, flexibility of the 240 is awesome.
Pop guns - I have to say never have I seen infantry more sad looking then when we would do joint demonstrations and after a platoon or company of infantry would lay down fire, one tank would go up to fire position and make them feel like children playing with toys. Well, maybe when you cruise by them as they are packing 40kg of shit in the rain and you just wave and drive on. Ofcourse back on the base they put the shit down and go to the shower and you spend 3 hours fixing the tank. In the same rain.
Small arms -While "helps you get away" is true, I do note the IDF in 1973 found that even an Uzi is not really enough to get away. The result was that IDF crews have a carbine for each crew member. First they were Galils. now ARs.
Don't forget that "If it's stupid and it worked, it may still be stupid, but you got lucky"
thank you Ian for this. Mr. Manic Moran is one of my favorite historians, and his book was excellent. He also posted quite a bit on a certain gun forum, so even more appropriate to have him here. you two have a combined wealth of knowledge that has single handedly changed current thinking on a lot of issues.
Next time I'm returning home with an M1 Abrams I'll know exactly how to smuggle home trophies.
Up your ass, prison style
@@firstnamegklsodascb4277 You forgot the question mark. I fear you are remarking from experience! 😄
Now the customs officers know too =P
firstname gklsodascb Ye olde prison purse.
Thank you both (et al) for this, great continuation to the tie up following the Small Arms of Tanks. I hope you both had and are having a good enough to great festive time IRL.
Also the auto genrated subtitles are [insert swear-word] hillarious at times too...
" ..squirming bears.." for sturmgehwers, lol, "...Frank frank frank..." for crank crank crank etc roflmao
your intro is like you're our "host" on this historic repository channel.
Greatest upgrade to the M3A3 was the remote view screen for the dismounts in the back, the JAFOs finally got some situational awareness
Chieftain you look like Lt col. Bill Killgore
It's been awhile since I wanna say this
"Thats about all we've got for today"
The hour long follow up filmed a couple years later in the suggestions bar:
"Why are there six pedals when there are only four directions?"
Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well!
The name comes from its first users - cavalry troopers called "carabiniers", from the French carabine, from Old French carabin (soldier armed with a musket), whose origin is unclear. One theory connects it to an "ancient engine of war" called a calabre; another connects it to Medieval Latin Calabrinus 'Calabrian';yet another, "less likely", to escarrabin, gravedigger, from the scarab beetle.
Fantastic Q&A, love these chats!
Excellent collaboration! Well done! Fictionally, there was an episode of Combat when Sgt. Saunders went one-on-one with a "German" tank and immobilized it by jamming a piece of log between the road wheels. In the Glenn Ford movie Imitation General, IIRC, they smear mud on the vision slits/periscopes of the "German" tank and then wait for the crew to open the TC hatch, drop a grenade in and then sit on the hatch.
I thought the biggest reasoning behind the replacing the 25mm is its anti armor capability. The armored targets like MICV that are supposed to be handled by the M2 have seen noticeable increase in protection. Many MICV are now in the 40 ton range and a 25mm gun will have problem dealing with those.
Possibly also that absolutely no one else uses the 25mm. Few exceptiins here and there, but all the serious players eithet use 30mm or are switching to it in their newest vehicles.
Two of my favorite YT guys. Great conversation.
Tank Father and Gun Jesus together? It must be Crimmas time! :-)
I do enjoy watching y’all double team these questions. I feel like you compliment each other well.
In the Spanish Civil War, some specialised tank hunters used double barrelled shotguns to shoot at the viewing ports of tanks, the theory being that they had a higher chance of getting in because of the spread and the smaller size of the birdshot. They then would close in and kill the tank with hand grenades.
A long time ago,I read an article about the Dunkirk debacle,and a particular Guards unit( no idea how many troops,or which,Scots Guards or the others) was ordered to be a sacrificial unit. The men were long service,and all were trained and notably good shots. The tanks they were facing( no idea which,or how many) were not defeated but backed off from advancing because they literally shot out the periscopic glass from the vision slits. Each tank had spares of course,but they literally used all of them up and the guys with the Enfields just didn't quit. I believe they stayed until the survivors were captured That is essentially all that remains to my memory from that article.
Just what it would take to retrieve info on that,no idea.
Maybe the battle diaries of the known Guards units at Dunkirk would be a starting point. Who the author of the article,no idea. Personal recollection I think it might have been. Just too many years ago for me.
Home guard training (Specifically that from the Osterly Park boys, mostly former Spanish Civil War international Brigade vets) Suggested a last ditch ambush tactic of throwing a wet blanket over the Drivers position. If it was kerosene that was alight, better for panic effect, but either way, you have blinded the vehicle. Otherwise a blanket soaked in waste engine oil would gum up the drive sprocket of a lighter tank and immobilise it. I can certainly see this working on a panzer 1 or 2
On today's episode of "Men Who Clank When They Walk".
Kelly's Heroes showed paint rounds.
@@donaldmeaker3627 fantastic film, that Sherman attack from the railway tunnel is superb.
Everything else, sensibilities wise, that is more 60's
But still blooming good fun!
Thank you so much for not cutting this video. This was great. BTW I would not have thought less of you if you mixed or chased your drinks.
The Chieftain likes bullpups? Please say you took him out to the range to try your FAMAS:)
Best video EVER lads! Just proves you are always learning
Time to boot up Euro Truck Sim 2 and listen to this.
Factorio for me
WarThunder here.
Empire total war
WOT for me
@@SGT_Bubba Middle eastern truck sim?
That was freaking awesome, two of my favorite You Tubers . You boys rock!!!
I love this kind of crossovers. For me it is an significant emocional event!
A lot of "Bang" with not a lot of encumberance and not caring if it actually had much impact at the other end....
Hey Ian! I think we found a use for that tooth-rattling V51!
A perfect xmas gift to the viewers!
0:47:12. Sweden was working on a concept from 1984 to 1991. A lighter tank with a 140 mm canon and 40 mm coaxial. Google strv2000.
You can tell the Chieftain is Irish. He starts his Q&A with a question of his own.
PS: is that Powers?
Looks like Midleton Very Rare, the label is from sometime between 1994 and 2016. Having said that, it may be a special release of some sort, because I'd expect it to just say "Irish Whiskey" under the oval at the top, and that doesn't look quite right to me.
@@steveamsp Ah yes. Apparently the Chieftain is into the exquisite rare stuff just like Ian. Can't see it on my phone.
Just had to wait until the end of the video.🙄
@@bohica3264 Watching at the end, it does just say "Irish Whiskey"... not sure of which year this is. Just started following Ian, but Midleton Very Rare is indeed a delicious whiskey
I am not sure who hosted the Q&A, possibly the Chieftain, (see his previous videos about house paint, it looks more like his home than Ian's). In which case the choice of good Irish whiskey is very likely.
I'd love to just watch like a three hour video of Chieftain just going off on all kinds of tangents about the WWII German super tanks and weapon plans
My neighbor works for General Dynamics at Tacom and when the Army asked them for a Bradley replacement that had all the same firepower, speed and protection of an Abrams he responded with "So you basically want an Abrams with a trailer?"
Gotta say watching two TH-camrs that I have a lot of respect for based on their opinions , experience and research , is an amazing use of almost 2 hours !
Ian do you ever comment on Quora? I’ve seen “the Chieftan “ there off and on
1:35:05 The 40mm on a Swedish CV 90 IS an old Bofors, slightly modified. I'm pretty sure the cost saving of reusing them played a part in choosing the 40L70.
They're not so much 'reused' as the continued use of something that's already invented and in production.
They used old guns/barrels so reuse is the thing they did. Plus alot of ammo in stock.
Thank you! Great video! Two favorite guys from two great channels! And Irish whiskey, another favorite.
"They should have tested it before they built them."
But then we wouldn't have all the weird and wacky stuff that makes these channels fun.
Fabulous discourse!!
When I went through basic in 1977 they gave us an M60 and a 50 round belt to familiarize us with it......
These guns had been used and abused, in fact they were beat to shit......
I pulled immediate action on the one I had 3 times before my 5th round went down range.....
I vowed never to get behind one again.... And when I got to my home unit I told them to give me any kind of weapon they wanted to, except that M60 POS up to including a fucking sling shot.....
So naturally they made me an M60 gunner and I humped the pig for the next
6 1/2 years❗‼❗
Fortunately my Squad Leader had spent 2 tours in Vietnam 2nd Cav. and he tought me to know and love that 23 pounds of scrap iron until I could take it down in a field of tall grass without a moon and put it back together ''with all the parts'' and my baby never failed me from then on till I got out.....
Like any woman, you have to learn how to treat her right is all....
If you treat her wrong, sooner or later she'll be up side your head with a #11 cast iron skillet and wanting a divorce and 1/2 your shit....😱😕😋
The guy dropping the grenade down the gun tube got extremely spot-on with the timing, dropped it in as the breech opened and it fell into the turret and set off the ready rounds in the autoloader carousel, no way a grenade could've done anything of note in a loaded gun.
"a whole bunch of MRAPs we no longer need"
You might want to hold that thought...