I'm officially in the long chainstays for life club. I've been riding a Kavenz with 500mm reach for a few years. The old chainstays were 435 at sag and maxed out at 440 at 100mm of suspension travel. The bike always had a tendency to understeer badly on flat corners when I was pushing hard. I swapped the dropouts and now run 455 chainstays (460 max) and the bike handles like it's on rails. The bike corners so much better now, especially in flat corners. I'd love to try one with 480 reach and 455 chainstays to see how it rides. Front center / rear center balance is something that people rarely talk about, but it makes such a massive difference in how a bike behaves.
I’m 6’4” and people are typically surprised that I ride size Large bikes. Every bike brand size chart puts me on an XL or XXL but those big bikes are so dang hard to corner fast. You guys are spot on. These reach numbers are out of control. I really like 475-480.
Owen Pemberton I believe is the owner of Forbidden and he was supposedly the engineer at Norco that was behind them doing size specific or almost proportional chain stays as well as the high pivot. Then he left Norco and started Forbidden where we now see literal size specific and proportional chain stay length on high pivot bikes. Good stuff as usual Brian! Keep it up man 👊
100% agree on mullet with long chainstays. Ideal for me at 6’3” is circa 460 chainstay with mullet. Benefits of smaller rear wheel, less ass buzz on super steep, easier turn in BUT give us long rear centred mullet e-bikes!
I’m 6’7” and just ordered an XXL Geometron specifically to solve the random frontend washouts I’ve been getting on my 440mm chainstay 2XL Transition Sentinel. This whole show is affirming that decision and I’m so excited to see how it goes.
The whole chain stay length talk, ever since my 2019 stumpjumper evo alloy ice been on a few bikes since then and I've been struggling since then. Then recently got a druid v2 and a dreadnought and were back baby! The stable feel and predictability front the long CS is what it was.
@@alexthemtbr What's your optimum AR value? From my experience low AR bikes although active the rear wheel doesn't dig in to provide much braking force either, on the other hand you can't drag the brake with high AR bikes or the rear gets rough. Love to hear your thoughts on this.
Sick exchange ! You ´ll see that the new Druid doesn’t have the firm feeling of the Dreadnought at all. I am really familiar with the feelings you’re talking about even riding M size bikes. Demoing « long cs » bikes like the Druid, Dreadnought or Norco Range I really felt like having grip up front. It lead to sick feeling of having the ability to push harder and harder !! Im joining the long cs gang !
Cool conversation about chainstay proportions on the Firebird. After chatting with one of my friends who rides an XL about our chainstay/wheelbase proportions, I did some rough math. Turns out the chainstay on my Ibis HD6 (a fairly conservative enduro bike by today's standards) is about the same proportion of the wheelbase as Paul Aston's custom made super long 1408 wheelbase, 500mm chainstay bike (35.4% vs. 35.5%). While that's obviously a rough calculation, it just shows how skewed the balance gets as the sizes go up. Also interesting that you guys chat about the Firebird, and the HD6 is basically just a 2024 Firebird with the horizontal shock and DW link, haha.
Yeah the Hd6 looks comically similar to the last generation firebird. Looks like a great platform but it’s disappointing it has really short stays and they aren’t size specific.
Nice chat. I have S4 enduro (I'm 187cm, long legs) and have the same experience with bikes. On open corners front grip is non exsisting even when I'm using racing Michelin tires. In previous years I rode 448mm chs Scott Genius and 470mm Giant Trance E+ 0 (2019 year) and they were perfect in terms of front grip. Now after 3 years of figuring out what's wrong I'm making 467mm chainstay for my S4 Enduro. It will be done in march and I will show You the concept and experience how is differ to ride.
Great chat between you guys! Lots of good points here in. I would love to see you guys try the Kavenz VHP V7. They’ve updated it with new adjustable dropout options to get longer chainstays, and I think it would really slot into the type of terrain you like to ride and race. You can run it mullet or 29, it’s dual crown rated and can run up to 185mm rear travel. The geo isn’t anything crazy, but it’s in a good range, there’s lots of options and it’s fairly adjustable. The way the turn-in feels on the bike is one of the most intuitive I’ve ever experienced, there’s no flop or vagueness. PS. I owned and raced the same gen SJ Evo as Nik, it was a fun bike and capabale for a “trail” bike. With an EXT Storia about back the suspension was better, but it definitely would get in over its head when things for really fast and rough. The rear suspension was just too linear for how high the leverage ratio was, and the rear end couldn’t cash the cheques that the geo was giving it.
On the reach number though, the number you're comfortable with was with 35-40mm stem, a 15mm or even -15mm of the RR stem will both raise the stack and shorten the reach. That'll counts to 30-40mm increase in reach for similar cockpit room.
I have the new Strive in Medium. At 181cm/5'11 the Large reach seemed crazy. And despite loving the bike I feel the front wash in certain circumstances. I would love to give the Small a go and perhaps play with the reach adjustment. The next bike I'm also eyeballing the V2 Druid. So I'm definitely looking forward to see how you rate it. As always, keep these vids coming. Can't get enough of the geo and handling lessons. 👌👍
Love the topic fellas. I currently ride a Kenevo SL on a S3. I’m a shorter rider barely 5ft 6” and for me I feel the same thing on tight switchback turns with the wheels riding 2 different lines. Especially flat turns the front tires becomes unpredictable at high speeds. I wish the wheel base could be a tad shorter and maybe the reach. Wondering if I should have size down with an S2 instead. Thanks for steering me away with maybe trying a shorter chain stay as it feels almost perfect already for popping manuals with confidence. Can’t wait for the next video!
Big chainstays on big bikes! I spent a couple days on a large firebird which has a long front center even compared to other enduro bikes, short headtube, and much shorter than average chainstays and i hated it. Felt like it wanted to turn off the back wheel and push the front end thru corners. It also felt nervous to me in fast, straight chunk. Opposite of what i want from a big burly bike. I also rode a current gen transition patrol for a year and didn't get along too much better with that for similar reasons (except for straight line confidence. That thing ate!) I've now been on a banshee titan for 6 months and i love it! Reasonable front center, high stack, and long chainstays make for a bike that makes me feel stable and confident in all conditions. You made a great choise and confirmed my bias a bit, which i appreciate 😂
Good convo. At 6ft 3 I can truly appreciate at long chainstay and tall stack. Finding a bike with that and reach #'s that are not insane is tuff. Norco Range checks alot of boxes but it's a bit of a tank. Spire looks amazing but a tad low on stack. So many great bikes but finding that perfect bike for giraff like me is PIA at times.
very interesting potcast in any case, there are several things that you can't learn anywhere else unless you know the right people (LOL) at least 2 points i have to test with a mate thanks guys and ride on
At 178 cm I ride an S4 Enduro with a short 30mm stem. I come from years and years of european Scooters and many kind of moto before biking. Scooters are really front end demanding,motor in the back,riders in the middle nothing really over the front wheel. I never had the issue of not getting front wheel gripp, my ridding style is all front end, in all my older bikes I need to finess my movements and had problems on short bikes allways overwellming the front end really easy. To me most critical aspect of ridding a long bike is rear end jumping around in braking areas messing my braking points sometimes. New bikes works fine for me,quite like being on the centre of the bike and load the front wheel very hard and let the long wheel base pick up speed over stuff with awesome stability. Taller people are used to "rear wheel" bikes like Jack Moir,quite the opposite to my taste and riding style.
Great video and topic. Think of the 5ft.-5’7 female rider and the 5’7 and under male…Sized off the chart. As a former Designer/Co-owner of a women’s specific frame builder (F.T.W. Kavik and we were KIND Cycles. We found chain stay length best related to not just leg length but mostly femur length. i.e. too long a c.s. resulted in a difficult-to-manual front end. ~Former builder ,but still a bike -geek. Thanks for rad content. 👍and Sub’d
Glad to hear you guys kinda reaffirm me buying a medium spire. In the high setting the spire has a 460 reach / 446 chainstay and I was actually a bit worried at first with such a relatively long chainstay, but so far im loving it! :D I cant remember you ever talking about the Spire tho; Is that because the Reach/CSlength ratio is not as favourable in the larger sizes?
The spire looks like a great bike, there’s definitely more bikes out there that are rad and have good geometry then we covered. I know Nik had one for a while and would be able to speak on it. Maybe we can cover that in another episode. Glad you’ve been getting along with it!
Just picked up a XL Spire. The longish chain stay on the XL and XXL was what drove me to it. I was concerned with the 510 reach but it feels smaller than my old Xl ripmo af in the cockpit. I have 0 rides on it so far due to a blown x2 out of box though. Not sure if it's a marketing thing or what but for a bike that's been around for 3 years the industry seems to sleep on it.
If you want an aluminium long travel enduro with long chainstays, long dropper insertion, easy maintenance (4 bar, external rear brake), water bottle mount, steep seatangle, low BB, not dirt traps in the linkage and without a yoke theres really not much else out there. the only drawback I could think of atm is the somewhat slack headangle and the heavy weight of the aluminium frame. regarding the x2; I had the same issue and just recently got the new 24 model x2 as replacement. the 24 model supposedly has a reworked sealhead to prevent the common airation issue@@chrism5768
Great talk! I am skewed a little as banshee fanboy, but I would agree the most that titan is really going, and if you are confident, trust the bike it is sooooo gooooood :)
Your descriptions of crashing explained half of my crashes since i switched to a stumpy evo S4 last year. What do you think about the Spire? The xl size has a longer chainstay (452 iirc), but I'm wondering about a 500+ reach for a 6'1" rider. Also would be curious to hear if you think rider weight impacts this sizing topic
The spire looks like it has good geo, Nik rode that bike for the past year. I think we’ll cover his experience in the next podcast. I’m 6’1, I think 500+ reach can work as long as it’s balanced. It just depends on your body proportions and how much room you want to have to maneuver the bike.
And no I don’t have any coherent thoughts on how rider weight would effect the sizing talk, my guess is that more balanced geo would help no matter what the weight of the rider is.
Nice tip on the banshee. It wasn't on my radar. One that slots in well with it and the raaw Madonna is the meta sx...perhaps a little closer to the banshee in stack, but longer wheelbase and 10mm more travel.
@@briancahal just throwing the Titans numbers into my comparison spreadsheet the front center to rear center ratio (fc:rc) is 1.81. The best in my list (meta, meta sx, Madonna V3, sj Evo (mid ht-lowbb), Enduro, sentinel, firebird, mach6, dreadnought, claymore, titan) this is measurement that vorsprung talks about a bit...lower is better. The next closest is the sj Evo at 1.82, then the Madonna at 1.85. Worst on the list is the sx at 1.91 and the mach6 at 1.90. I think Steve might be on to something. The titan also has a leverage ratio of 2.38 meaning you're shock is far less likely to cavitate for heavy and aggressive riders...nothing comes close to this number.
500mm reach for a size L isn't the problem it's the continued use of 40-50mm stems. I have a 520mm reach bike with a 20mm stem and 462mm chainstays and it rides like a dream!
I love this nerdy ass geo talk. It gets the wheels turning (no pun intended) gets me thinking about past bikes I’ve had and how they behaved in different scenarios. My last HT had really high stack and was a straight line smasher but lacked front end grip on flat turns. Every time I moved the sliding drop outs a little further back it got better and better. Goddamn I miss that bike😢 (get smashed in a rearend accident
Cannot wait to hear your thoughts on the druid V2! Decided it was the perfect trail bike that can handle light bike park/Enduro duties. Thinking size s2 as I'm 5'11 with 5'9 arms. If you'll be uploading your review soon I'll genuinely hold off on buying until hearing your thoughts, as i'm hoping to hold onto my next bike for 4-5 years. Thanks again for great insights!
Stumpy Evo has really nice geo in certain settings. At size 4 in the steep HTA and low bottom bracket its got a 1.8 FC/RC ratio (467mm reach 443 chainstay). Hoping to ride one for my next bike.
Verry interresting thoughts, that's good stuff ! thank's guys ! I'm on a Specialized enduro S4, now i know from where comes that same loose front feeling when cornering. I like the bike, but why the industry doesn't offer "hacks" to modify the CS lenght, like dropout inserts ? What would you pick as a perfect Front/Rear ratio ? As pro riders, if it would be possible to get a tailor made frame, would you be able to provide your ideal geometry measurement ?
I like that some companies offer interchangeable drop outs or adjustable chain stays. Does a better job at keeping more riders happy imo. I'd be able to give some pretty specific numbers based on my experience. The frame works trail bike has numbers that are pretty much exactly what I'd want. Geometry isn't everything though, although I think it's probably the most important thing when choosing a bike frame.
Super interesting. I’m in the market for a new frame right now. I know you have a lot of experience with the terrain at and around windrock so i’m wondering what are a couple frames you would recommend to race that kind of terrain?
Forbidden is a solid choice, banshee or commencal mega SX v5, there’s more good options if your a size medium imo, and I haven’t ridden them all so hard to say.
@@briancahal Awesome thanks so much! I’m 16 years old trying to figure out how to ride fast fast and rn i’m on a steel single pivot that’s sweet but i just don’t think it’s a great race bike
This why a mullet better because the smaller rear wheel is rotating faster than the front, it 'catches up' to follow the ark of the front wheel. Get the 'feel' ov the rear 'dragged out round the corner....look at dirt bike theyve know ov the benefits of mullet for years.
Mullet only works on steep descends aka downhill. Enduro has their on beast where keeping momentum from the 29” helps in the flatter sections of trails
I can't see much relivence compairing stack and reach for anything other than bike comfort. Front and rear center measurements tell the better story of balance. High stack is impacted by headtube length (fork length and angle also). The titan has a high stack because it has a crazy long headtube. This is the same as adding spacers under the stem.
Im happy you guys are addressing the bs marketing short CS crap companies are putting out. Unbalanced bikes that are unsafe. Been having this internal dialogue now for a while since riding a longer cs Yeti. I hated the low stack though. Now im back to debating on the druid v2. This bike game is ridiculous and these companies really need to rethink what they’re putting out.
I'm always discussing this theories with my buddies ... I often compare wheelbase and cs length with skis... when you want stability grab the longer ones but in the ski world they adapt the rearcenter at each length, not just the frontcenter like in the bikeindustrie! I´m 174cm and I ride a Enduro S3 with 20mm of spacer under the stem and a 35 mm rise bar and it fits me pretty well. I also have to say that our trails back home in Austria are steep and rough and I like Schladming!. I love it, but I'm curious after 3 years if there is some bike out there that would be better ... What is better, which one is better? I would like the same stability of bike but it should be a bit more lively so ... no longer wheelbase, some reach, some chain stay length, maybe a little more stack hight...is there a bike that checks all the boxes or do we always have to make compromises? Cheers ;)
I bought it last year but haven't been able to build it up yet. I think the dreadnought v2 is on its way as well. It looks as if the supernought is essentially the new dreadnought with different links if I had to guess.
I liked the discussion but I am going crazy now... Every 3 sec "then like... I was like... When you like... And yeak like... Like like like like like like..." aaaaahhh😂
Long reaches are just a by product of steep seat tubes and slack head tubes. The number that really matters for sizing would be effective top tube ( the measure from seat at stack height to top tube).
Just wait till you get on the new Dreadnought. Inverted four-bar HP has the most impressive suspension performance I’ve ridden. Oh and I think the small WB works for Moir because his CoG is so high he can adjust the front to rear grip levels with the tiniest of weight shifts. I think it would be too sensitive for 99.9% of people but it works for him. Same with Vestappen in F1. The guy can drive a ludicrously pointy car. Finally I agree 100% on low angle trails exposing weight distribution issues.
I'm officially in the long chainstays for life club. I've been riding a Kavenz with 500mm reach for a few years. The old chainstays were 435 at sag and maxed out at 440 at 100mm of suspension travel. The bike always had a tendency to understeer badly on flat corners when I was pushing hard. I swapped the dropouts and now run 455 chainstays (460 max) and the bike handles like it's on rails. The bike corners so much better now, especially in flat corners. I'd love to try one with 480 reach and 455 chainstays to see how it rides. Front center / rear center balance is something that people rarely talk about, but it makes such a massive difference in how a bike behaves.
Nice, cool that you tried different chainstay lengths on the same bike and feel the difference.
I’m 6’4” and people are typically surprised that I ride size Large bikes. Every bike brand size chart puts me on an XL or XXL but those big bikes are so dang hard to corner fast. You guys are spot on. These reach numbers are out of control. I really like 475-480.
I am willing to bet that you have a negative ape index.
Owen Pemberton I believe is the owner of Forbidden and he was supposedly the engineer at Norco that was behind them doing size specific or almost proportional chain stays as well as the high pivot. Then he left Norco and started Forbidden where we now see literal size specific and proportional chain stay length on high pivot bikes.
Good stuff as usual Brian! Keep it up man 👊
100% agree on mullet with long chainstays. Ideal for me at 6’3” is circa 460 chainstay with mullet. Benefits of smaller rear wheel, less ass buzz on super steep, easier turn in BUT give us long rear centred mullet e-bikes!
I’m 6’7” and just ordered an XXL Geometron specifically to solve the random frontend washouts I’ve been getting on my 440mm chainstay 2XL Transition Sentinel. This whole show is affirming that decision and I’m so excited to see how it goes.
The whole chain stay length talk, ever since my 2019 stumpjumper evo alloy ice been on a few bikes since then and I've been struggling since then. Then recently got a druid v2 and a dreadnought and were back baby! The stable feel and predictability front the long CS is what it was.
Good to hear! Both those bikes are rad
Dude this is good. Would listen to more.
Thanks! More to come.
Brian, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the RAAW Madonna V3
Looks like a great bike, I’d love to ride one if I get a chance. I’ve heard good things about it from riders I trust
I liked my Madonna but the low anti-rise always pushed me forward when it got steep. Just my opinion
@@alexthemtbr What's your optimum AR value? From my experience low AR bikes although active the rear wheel doesn't dig in to provide much braking force either, on the other hand you can't drag the brake with high AR bikes or the rear gets rough. Love to hear your thoughts on this.
I’ve got so much to say along with you! My Repeater with 455 chainstays corners freakishly fast!
Sick exchange ! You ´ll see that the new Druid doesn’t have the firm feeling of the Dreadnought at all.
I am really familiar with the feelings you’re talking about even riding M size bikes. Demoing « long cs » bikes like the Druid, Dreadnought or Norco Range I really felt like having grip up front.
It lead to sick feeling of having the ability to push harder and harder !!
Im joining the long cs gang !
Cool conversation about chainstay proportions on the Firebird. After chatting with one of my friends who rides an XL about our chainstay/wheelbase proportions, I did some rough math. Turns out the chainstay on my Ibis HD6 (a fairly conservative enduro bike by today's standards) is about the same proportion of the wheelbase as Paul Aston's custom made super long 1408 wheelbase, 500mm chainstay bike (35.4% vs. 35.5%). While that's obviously a rough calculation, it just shows how skewed the balance gets as the sizes go up.
Also interesting that you guys chat about the Firebird, and the HD6 is basically just a 2024 Firebird with the horizontal shock and DW link, haha.
Yeah the Hd6 looks comically similar to the last generation firebird. Looks like a great platform but it’s disappointing it has really short stays and they aren’t size specific.
For sure. It works great in a medium, but I imagine in the larger sizes the balance front to rear could be pretty tricky to manage@@briancahal
Nice chat. I have S4 enduro (I'm 187cm, long legs) and have the same experience with bikes. On open corners front grip is non exsisting even when I'm using racing Michelin tires. In previous years I rode 448mm chs Scott Genius and 470mm Giant Trance E+ 0 (2019 year) and they were perfect in terms of front grip. Now after 3 years of figuring out what's wrong I'm making 467mm chainstay for my S4 Enduro. It will be done in march and I will show You the concept and experience how is differ to ride.
Nice would love to see it!
Great chat between you guys! Lots of good points here in. I would love to see you guys try the Kavenz VHP V7. They’ve updated it with new adjustable dropout options to get longer chainstays, and I think it would really slot into the type of terrain you like to ride and race. You can run it mullet or 29, it’s dual crown rated and can run up to 185mm rear travel. The geo isn’t anything crazy, but it’s in a good range, there’s lots of options and it’s fairly adjustable. The way the turn-in feels on the bike is one of the most intuitive I’ve ever experienced, there’s no flop or vagueness.
PS. I owned and raced the same gen SJ Evo as Nik, it was a fun bike and capabale for a “trail” bike. With an EXT Storia about back the suspension was better, but it definitely would get in over its head when things for really fast and rough. The rear suspension was just too linear for how high the leverage ratio was, and the rear end couldn’t cash the cheques that the geo was giving it.
Dope video bros! Love these kinda massive reviews. Very sick!
Appreciate it!
On the reach number though, the number you're comfortable with was with 35-40mm stem, a 15mm or even -15mm of the RR stem will both raise the stack and shorten the reach. That'll counts to 30-40mm increase in reach for similar cockpit room.
I have the new Strive in Medium. At 181cm/5'11 the Large reach seemed crazy. And despite loving the bike I feel the front wash in certain circumstances. I would love to give the Small a go and perhaps play with the reach adjustment.
The next bike I'm also eyeballing the V2 Druid. So I'm definitely looking forward to see how you rate it.
As always, keep these vids coming. Can't get enough of the geo and handling lessons. 👌👍
Love the topic fellas. I currently ride a Kenevo SL on a S3. I’m a shorter rider barely 5ft 6” and for me I feel the same thing on tight switchback turns with the wheels riding 2 different lines. Especially flat turns the front tires becomes unpredictable at high speeds. I wish the wheel base could be a tad shorter and maybe the reach. Wondering if I should have size down with an S2 instead. Thanks for steering me away with maybe trying a shorter chain stay as it feels almost perfect already for popping manuals with confidence. Can’t wait for the next video!
catchy chat lads, cheers for upload 👍
Big chainstays on big bikes! I spent a couple days on a large firebird which has a long front center even compared to other enduro bikes, short headtube, and much shorter than average chainstays and i hated it. Felt like it wanted to turn off the back wheel and push the front end thru corners. It also felt nervous to me in fast, straight chunk. Opposite of what i want from a big burly bike.
I also rode a current gen transition patrol for a year and didn't get along too much better with that for similar reasons (except for straight line confidence. That thing ate!)
I've now been on a banshee titan for 6 months and i love it! Reasonable front center, high stack, and long chainstays make for a bike that makes me feel stable and confident in all conditions.
You made a great choise and confirmed my bias a bit, which i appreciate 😂
I will say though, i like short stays on hardtails and short travel bikes. Poppy little bikes are a ton of fun in their own way
Good convo. At 6ft 3 I can truly appreciate at long chainstay and tall stack. Finding a bike with that and reach #'s that are not insane is tuff. Norco Range checks alot of boxes but it's a bit of a tank. Spire looks amazing but a tad low on stack. So many great bikes but finding that perfect bike for giraff like me is PIA at times.
very interesting potcast
in any case, there are several things that you can't learn anywhere else unless you know the right people (LOL)
at least 2 points i have to test with a mate
thanks guys and ride on
At 178 cm I ride an S4 Enduro with a short 30mm stem. I come from years and years of european Scooters and many kind of moto before biking. Scooters are really front end demanding,motor in the back,riders in the middle nothing really over the front wheel. I never had the issue of not getting front wheel gripp, my ridding style is all front end, in all my older bikes I need to finess my movements and had problems on short bikes allways overwellming the front end really easy. To me most critical aspect of ridding a long bike is rear end jumping around in braking areas messing my braking points sometimes.
New bikes works fine for me,quite like being on the centre of the bike and load the front wheel very hard and let the long wheel base pick up speed over stuff with awesome stability.
Taller people are used to "rear wheel" bikes like Jack Moir,quite the opposite to my taste and riding style.
Great discussion. Beyond proportional chainstays, what about proportional stack? Curious what your thoughts are after riding the RR stem.
I think proportional stack makes sense. A lot of companies already do that, but generally I think stacks for enduro bikes could increase.
Great video and topic.
Think of the 5ft.-5’7 female rider and the 5’7 and under male…Sized off the chart.
As a former Designer/Co-owner of a women’s specific frame builder
(F.T.W. Kavik and we were KIND Cycles. We found chain stay length best related to not just leg length but mostly femur length.
i.e. too long a c.s. resulted in a difficult-to-manual front end.
~Former builder ,but still a bike -geek. Thanks for rad content.
👍and Sub’d
Glad to hear you guys kinda reaffirm me buying a medium spire. In the high setting the spire has a 460 reach / 446 chainstay and I was actually a bit worried at first with such a relatively long chainstay, but so far im loving it! :D
I cant remember you ever talking about the Spire tho; Is that because the Reach/CSlength ratio is not as favourable in the larger sizes?
The spire looks like a great bike, there’s definitely more bikes out there that are rad and have good geometry then we covered. I know Nik had one for a while and would be able to speak on it. Maybe we can cover that in another episode. Glad you’ve been getting along with it!
Just picked up a XL Spire. The longish chain stay on the XL and XXL was what drove me to it. I was concerned with the 510 reach but it feels smaller than my old Xl ripmo af in the cockpit. I have 0 rides on it so far due to a blown x2 out of box though. Not sure if it's a marketing thing or what but for a bike that's been around for 3 years the industry seems to sleep on it.
If you want an aluminium long travel enduro with long chainstays, long dropper insertion, easy maintenance (4 bar, external rear brake), water bottle mount, steep seatangle, low BB, not dirt traps in the linkage and without a yoke theres really not much else out there. the only drawback I could think of atm is the somewhat slack headangle and the heavy weight of the aluminium frame.
regarding the x2; I had the same issue and just recently got the new 24 model x2 as replacement. the 24 model supposedly has a reworked sealhead to prevent the common airation issue@@chrism5768
Great talk! I am skewed a little as banshee fanboy, but I would agree the most that titan is really going, and if you are confident, trust the bike it is sooooo gooooood :)
Your descriptions of crashing explained half of my crashes since i switched to a stumpy evo S4 last year.
What do you think about the Spire? The xl size has a longer chainstay (452 iirc), but I'm wondering about a 500+ reach for a 6'1" rider.
Also would be curious to hear if you think rider weight impacts this sizing topic
The spire looks like it has good geo, Nik rode that bike for the past year. I think we’ll cover his experience in the next podcast. I’m 6’1, I think 500+ reach can work as long as it’s balanced. It just depends on your body proportions and how much room you want to have to maneuver the bike.
And no I don’t have any coherent thoughts on how rider weight would effect the sizing talk, my guess is that more balanced geo would help no matter what the weight of the rider is.
You can put an s5/s6 cs on your SteVo. Makes the s4 ride so good
Nice tip on the banshee. It wasn't on my radar. One that slots in well with it and the raaw Madonna is the meta sx...perhaps a little closer to the banshee in stack, but longer wheelbase and 10mm more travel.
Forgot to mention the meta SX. that thing looks sweet and has great geo
@@briancahal just throwing the Titans numbers into my comparison spreadsheet the front center to rear center ratio (fc:rc) is 1.81. The best in my list (meta, meta sx, Madonna V3, sj Evo (mid ht-lowbb), Enduro, sentinel, firebird, mach6, dreadnought, claymore, titan) this is measurement that vorsprung talks about a bit...lower is better. The next closest is the sj Evo at 1.82, then the Madonna at 1.85. Worst on the list is the sx at 1.91 and the mach6 at 1.90. I think Steve might be on to something.
The titan also has a leverage ratio of 2.38 meaning you're shock is far less likely to cavitate for heavy and aggressive riders...nothing comes close to this number.
As a 6'5" rider, you're preaching the good word! 😅 I wish forbidden would make alloy bikes. I prefer the more damped/dead feeling of alloy.
they also need to make an ebike
@@spencerimre 100%
That Scott Ransom looks sooo sooo nice
The S4 with a 32mm stem and 50mm riser bar corners like it's on rails😮🎉
500mm reach for a size L isn't the problem it's the continued use of 40-50mm stems. I have a 520mm reach bike with a 20mm stem and 462mm chainstays and it rides like a dream!
I love this nerdy ass geo talk. It gets the wheels turning (no pun intended) gets me thinking about past bikes I’ve had and how they behaved in different scenarios.
My last HT had really high stack and was a straight line smasher but lacked front end grip on flat turns. Every time I moved the sliding drop outs a little further back it got better and better.
Goddamn I miss that bike😢 (get smashed in a rearend accident
Cannot wait to hear your thoughts on the druid V2! Decided it was the perfect trail bike that can handle light bike park/Enduro duties. Thinking size s2 as I'm 5'11 with 5'9 arms. If you'll be uploading your review soon I'll genuinely hold off on buying until hearing your thoughts, as i'm hoping to hold onto my next bike for 4-5 years. Thanks again for great insights!
I won’t get a chance to ride and review it until may. Stoked to ride it
Been preaching this since 2017… best geo I had was with a 464mm chainstay
What bike was that?
@@briancahal yt decoy 29
Didn’t love the suspension but I could ride that 145mm bike wayyyy above what I thought I could.
Stumpy Evo has really nice geo in certain settings. At size 4 in the steep HTA and low bottom bracket its got a 1.8 FC/RC ratio (467mm reach 443 chainstay). Hoping to ride one for my next bike.
I’ve ridden the stumpy Evo and I like it, lots of adjustability and easy to get along with. Good geo especially in the s3 and smaller
You can put an s5/s6 cs on the s4 and it’s perfect. I’m running it with a cascade link and Wrp yoke and a 170 Zeb and the bike is unreal good now
Verry interresting thoughts, that's good stuff ! thank's guys !
I'm on a Specialized enduro S4, now i know from where comes that same loose front feeling when cornering.
I like the bike, but why the industry doesn't offer "hacks" to modify the CS lenght, like dropout inserts ?
What would you pick as a perfect Front/Rear ratio ?
As pro riders, if it would be possible to get a tailor made frame, would you be able to provide your ideal geometry measurement ?
I like that some companies offer interchangeable drop outs or adjustable chain stays. Does a better job at keeping more riders happy imo. I'd be able to give some pretty specific numbers based on my experience. The frame works trail bike has numbers that are pretty much exactly what I'd want. Geometry isn't everything though, although I think it's probably the most important thing when choosing a bike frame.
My wife happened to catch me watching the very end: "If you made it through 1.5 hour of this ... WOW!" Now she thinks she funny.
Haha thanks for sticking in there!
Super interesting. I’m in the market for a new frame right now. I know you have a lot of experience with the terrain at and around windrock so i’m wondering what are a couple frames you would recommend to race that kind of terrain?
Forbidden is a solid choice, banshee or commencal mega SX v5, there’s more good options if your a size medium imo, and I haven’t ridden them all so hard to say.
@@briancahal Awesome thanks so much! I’m 16 years old trying to figure out how to ride fast fast and rn i’m on a steel single pivot that’s sweet but i just don’t think it’s a great race bike
this whole convo makes me glad I ride a medium where we've accidentally had balanced reach to chainstays for years
I had a bird am 9 large, had also a lot of problems washing out on the Front end
This why a mullet better because the smaller rear wheel is rotating faster than the front, it 'catches up' to follow the ark of the front wheel. Get the 'feel' ov the rear 'dragged out round the corner....look at dirt bike theyve know ov the benefits of mullet for years.
Mullet only works on steep descends aka downhill. Enduro has their on beast where keeping momentum from the 29” helps in the flatter sections of trails
Cool beans!
I can't see much relivence compairing stack and reach for anything other than bike comfort. Front and rear center measurements tell the better story of balance. High stack is impacted by headtube length (fork length and angle also). The titan has a high stack because it has a crazy long headtube. This is the same as adding spacers under the stem.
my bronson 1 has a 430 reach and 440 chainstay on a size large. sounds like this will be the trend again soon but sized up.
Love long chainstays
Zerode G3 just been released.... the future
Im happy you guys are addressing the bs marketing short CS crap companies are putting out. Unbalanced bikes that are unsafe. Been having this internal dialogue now for a while since riding a longer cs Yeti. I hated the low stack though. Now im back to debating on the druid v2. This bike game is ridiculous and these companies really need to rethink what they’re putting out.
If Banshee could redo the Titan with deeper seat post insertion it would be a winner.
And external cable routing would be nice as well
@@michaelk.5706 And the shock cage makes it hard to make changes the rebound on most coils.
I'm always discussing this theories with my buddies ... I often compare wheelbase and cs length with skis... when you want stability grab the longer ones but in the ski world they adapt the rearcenter at each length, not just the frontcenter like in the bikeindustrie! I´m 174cm and I ride a Enduro S3 with 20mm of spacer under the stem and a 35 mm rise bar and it fits me pretty well. I also have to say that our trails back home in Austria are steep and rough and I like Schladming!. I love it, but I'm curious after 3 years if there is some bike out there that would be better ... What is better, which one is better? I would like the same stability of bike but it should be a bit more lively so ... no longer wheelbase, some reach, some chain stay length, maybe a little more stack hight...is there a bike that checks all the boxes or do we always have to make compromises? Cheers ;)
The new comencal meta SX looks like a great all rounder. But idk your always going to be making sacrifices
What about Pole Vikkela? It has 455 chainstay for all sizes and up to 190/200 mm travel with 12 speed drivetrain.
Looks like a unique bike. Would love to give one a try.
I love your videos ❤
when you mget the Druid V2? i am in line too for this bike!
I Think Dread V2 will be released soon too...
I bought it last year but haven't been able to build it up yet. I think the dreadnought v2 is on its way as well. It looks as if the supernought is essentially the new dreadnought with different links if I had to guess.
@@briancahal so when we will get a vid on the druid v2? i am in for one, but your opinion on the ride is me worth waiting for it.
Maybe you should try the emrg senduro. It has a really unique Design concept
that is an interesting bike for sure, never heard of it. Honestly looks like a dual link Nicolai with all the adjustability.
Late to the party here, did y’all bring up the Archibald?
Hmm, no I’ve never heard of the Archibald
It’s right up your alley! Really enjoyed this conversation!!!
Is it all geometry? Stiffness and suspension will play a role?
Geometry is always first, everything else comes after
@@DavidFoundCo but a few millimeters here and there seem insignificant
@@MichielvanderMeulen it might be to you but when people push bikes closer to the speed limit a few mils make all the difference
I liked the discussion but I am going crazy now... Every 3 sec "then like... I was like... When you like... And yeak like... Like like like like like like..." aaaaahhh😂
Haha sorry I’ll do better next time
@@briancahal :))
when is the next blog coming?
Sorry to be that guy, but could we get some timestamps plz?
Will do
Long reaches are just a by product of steep seat tubes and slack head tubes. The number that really matters for sizing would be effective top tube ( the measure from seat at stack height to top tube).
Interesting conversation, but it feels like your views are pretty firm, and your coming to judgments without actually riding these bikes
You need Paul Aston @astonmtb
I’m so glad rear centre is optimised around my medium size🤣
Haha yeah life is a lot easier if you ride a medium
Just wait till you get on the new Dreadnought. Inverted four-bar HP has the most impressive suspension performance I’ve ridden. Oh and I think the small WB works for Moir because his CoG is so high he can adjust the front to rear grip levels with the tiniest of weight shifts. I think it would be too sensitive for 99.9% of people but it works for him. Same with Vestappen in F1. The guy can drive a ludicrously pointy car. Finally I agree 100% on low angle trails exposing weight distribution issues.