Keep the glasses. You look less cult leader like with them on. Felt like you were gonna ask me to drink blood from a chalice & sacrifice a virgin or something. Glasses look good bro👍
Future Gohan was really fighting the androids for like a decade only for them to say "lmao we're just holding back" and get killed. They literally clowned him to death 💀
I got the feeling that the Future Androids were just as strong, but they just never fought seriously. Remember Future 17 was able to fight on par with Future Gohan with less than 50% of his power. It is implied when he gets serious, Future Gohan dies very quickly. Trunks THINKS they were weaker, but he never forced them to get serious, the whole time they were toying with him. The Present Androids did not mess around.
Wow. This actually made me think about the whole 17 and 18 power levels entirely differently. I never thought about the fact that Trunks probably never saw 17 and 18 at full power.
Yeah, the fandom in the day seemed to assume he did.... but really.... he didn't. When he goes back to the future to kill them... it's not until AFTER Cell Games when he's WAY stronger than when he killed Frieza.
Is power scaling really matter in Dragon ball I mean Broly in his great ape form(basically less than a normal ssj) beat the crap out of ssj God Goku like WTF
We don't really know how much stronger they were, though. They still had reasons to train. All of them either died or nearly died leading up to Goku becoming a SSJ. It's possible that they still trained hard in the original timeline after everything that happened (including Frieza coming to destroy the earth - and them not knowing for a fact that there weren't others like him lurking). My point being that logic would suggest that they got stronger - but it may not have even been by much, because it would make sense for them to want to train after everything that had happened.
There's a lot of moving parts to this discussion that make it very hard to judge. - Future 17 & 18 while, apparently, "holding back" did happily gang up on single opponents, Gohan and Trunks as well as likely the rest of the Z-Fighters, while 'our' 17 & 18 tended to fight as individuals. - We don't know how powerful Future Gohan was compared to Future Trunks. - We don't even really know if 17 & 18's statement that they'd been holding back just means they didn't fight to kill Gohan previously and or that they were each easily far more powerful than him. - We don't know what parameters Gero, and or his AIs, used to work out how powerful any of the Androids needed to be and thus if they'd have been changed by the Z-Fighters training more, especially since 19 and 20 are taken off guard by the SSJ transformation (and definitely can't actually contend with it) but DNA was collected from Frieza and King Cold.
What I always found interesting was how ki blast heavy the future androids were. The androids in the present timeline never used any energy attacks. I remember 18 using some to keep semi perfect cell at bay and she used the energy disk on mighty mask but 17? nope.
Don’t forget they are impressionable teenager, in the future, maybe they weren’t so evil in the beginning but took a liking in their destructive nature. Here, at first they didn’t even want to fight the Z fighters and they got C16 to prevent them from going rogue, so I think C16 and the fact that they never got the chance to taste being destructive thanks to him, is why they are like that
It's because filler always used ki blasts back in Z. That's why GT was riddled with them too. It was a thing that Ki Blasts just looked really cool, and our child brains loved it lol. I personally hate the small ki blasts because they never work.
It's implied that Dr. Gero found the Cell pupae, causing the timeline to change even more than Trunks anticipated. It is implied that Dr. Gero beefed up the Androids to make Perfect Cell even more powerful as his last Ace in the hole.
I think the reason your videos aren’t getting pushed to a bigger audience is because of your video quality. It looks like 720p at 30fps. TH-cam pushes content with 1080p at 60fps (or more) because it’s deemed more important. Just a thought!! Love your content man 💜
My videos are 1080p 60fps(with some select videos being made in 4K). TH-cam compresses them a lot when I upload them. Also early on video quality may not appear as high.
@@LSMMIKE The way Future Trunks talked about the Androids in his Timeline made me confused, since he stated that even though the future versions of Android 17 and Android were weaker than their present counterparts, they were still able to kill most of the Humans and the Future Z-Fighters. Not only that, but they were also able to destroy countless Cities as well.
I think, because Trunks and Gohan always "managed" to escape after every fight, not knowing the androids were allowing them to, they felt like with a bit more training, they could eventually destroy them. Ofcourse, they were no where near the androids in terms of power. I wonder if Gohan was perhaps 30-40% of 17's power. It would make sense that Trunks feels that his timeline androids were weaker, when they were just messing around this whole time.
I thought that because they were now training to get stronger since Trunks warned them about the Androids, Dr. Geros spy robots were monitering their strength and he increased the strength of 17 and 18 to exceed the strength of the z fighters with the added training, which would be higher than that of the z fighters who weren't training in Trunks timeline.
@@everettjohnson9374 No, they were always watching and collecting data. Cell even shows one of the spy drones to Piccolo while he's explaining his origin.
@@Ace_of_Horns the computer kept collecting data for cell, but Gero did not look at any of that data. As evidence he was surprised by SSJ and how strong Vegeta was transformed.
Gero himself is taken utterly by surprise by how strong the Z-Fighters actually are when he and 19 attack, even beyond Goku and Vegeta's SSJ transformations "Not him too...", so whatever calculations and such he made they're definitely off in the main timeline, how or if that'd impact on how strong 17 & 18 are in each timeline isn't clear.
I never believed in that statement. Future Gohan and Trunks might’ve been able to land some decent hits on the androids, but they never did any significant damage to them to force them to use their full power. Trunks just assumed that since his father was stronger than him, he lasted awhile against 18, and when the androids took them out quickly, that they were stronger than their future counterparts. Trunks had some decent strength, but he was inexperienced at this point. The only thing he got right was that 17 and 18 were too strong .
And that the future versions were weaker. If they were the exact same strength, Cell wouldn't need to absorb anyone, given he wouldn't pursue the Androids or Trunks if he was weaker than them.
Trunks said in the manga he went back and fought them as a ssj afterward and realized the limits of their power. So his statement and scaling is legit. It's also in the daizenshu. Gohan fans didn't want to accept he trained for 20 years and couldn't handle a weaker version of the androids. He also lost his arm from 17 at less than half strength making gohan even weaker than we thought. Also the daizenshu states they're weaker in the future
Also the Future 17 & 18 frequently ganged up on Future Gohan and Trunks, while the main timeline 17 & 18 tended to actually fight as individuals, which makes it even harder to really gauge their strength.
I'm sure it is just head cannon, but I always just assumed since gero was monitoring the fighters to gain information/cells to create Cell, I figured he parlayed that info into the androids as well, and since the z fighters trained extra hard for 3 years, the main line androids had a deeper pool of information to gain from. Goku was the only super Saiyan in the future timeline, but by the time we see the androids in the main timeline, Goku, trunks and Vegeta have all became ssj in addition to the lesser cast increasing their power to prepare for the upcoming threat.
Good point, though Dr. Gero still wasn't even aware of Goku being a Super Saiyan except in the anime later on 16 had data about super Saiyan Goku when Bulma and her father were looking through his mind
I don't think so, because 19 and 20 had outdated information on everyone, and didn't know about Super Saiyans. That seems to indicate the data harvested by the drones over the last few years were only fed to Gero's computer and to Cell, and not to Gero himself. Which is kind of a plot hole, in my opinion, because Gero being a genius scientist, he should know that knowledge is power, and should have made sure to benefit from his computer's information. I guess the whole point was to make the story more dynamic, through the androids getting caught off guard by having miscalculated everything (or rather, they probably calculated right... but from outdated data).
I've never been soul set on the manga but I always went off of Piccolo's analysis because there was a moment when 18 said she may have to use her full power on Super Saiyan Vegeta. That fight was close to equal but to be fair she beat Vegeta waisting his energy and stamina out of arrogance. Then there was the moment Trunks swung his sword at her and it cracked on her arm. His face was in shock and my theory is when he fought the androids in his time they dodged his sword like it was a threat. But then he witnessed it just get broken just by her blocking it, it was the defining factor of the difference.🤔
It is explained in anime version through breaking of trunks sword. In that moment he notices that they are stronger in this timeline. I don't know if this happened in manga
@@fuckthisstupidasshandleshit Oh we KNOW Trunks used it... but it never BROKE until he tried it in the present. in the future 18 did silly stuff like dodging a sword strike than standing on the blade. But she never broke it.
This way to explain it is good. I liked the theory used in Dragon Ball Multiverse more but it's been (implicitely) disproved by Super... Basically this theory is that it's not that 17 and 18 are stronger in the main timeline, it's that they got weaker in Trunk's timeline, it's summed up in one cool quote: "There's no such thing as infinite energy." The point of this theory is, with no one to do any sort of maintenance on them, their artificial part, especially the infinite energy reactor, are gradually deteriorating, slowly making the androids weaker over time.
Power wise, I assumed the Androids were pretty much the same, I think the biggest difference is their personality. Present isn't quite as evil as the future, and having 16 helped too keeping them alil more down to Earth. Trunks future ones where always playing around and holding back, letting him and Gohan get some hits in making it seem from Trunks perspective he had a chance, while present ones didn't drag things out as much and was more serious giving a stronger impression.
@@aceclover758 Enh... I dunno about that. 16 didn't really feel much in the way of protecting Humans. mostly he just stood back and watched. He attacked Cell to save 18, not Humans.
@@marhawkman303 What I mean is 16 likes the Earth, nature. He hates needless destruction Just like he wanted to kill Cell because he saw him as a “threat to the Earth”. Same way he would see future 17 and 18
Indeed, I think the best thing we've got is that Trunks is supposedly weaker than Goku was at the end of the Freiza saga but still strong enough to easily kill Frieza in his final form.
It might be cheating to take the much later super lore into account. But if 17 is capable of getting so much stronger over time through training, then maybe future 17 and 18 just naturally got weaker over time from slacking off. They clearly never cared about pushing themselves or self improvement. And just had fun slaughtering helpless earthlings and beating up gohan and trunks.
I’ve always thought that the present time Androids were stronger than their future counterparts because of these reasons: 1: The warriors had 3 years prep time and STILL got trashed unlike their caught off guard future counterparts. Trunks would atleast have some frame of reference there. 2: Dr Gero was already in the works of supressing the Androids’s power to balance their obediencey going by 17 and 18’s description in the manga, so they, by inevitability, had their powers lowered during that 3 year process. 3: Future Imperfect Cell would’ve gotten absolutely destroyed by present time 17 and 18, which would make sense since they are on Super Piccolo’s level / non supressed since they were released too early to begin with. Future Cell would’ve absorbed the future Androids just fine since they were designed weaker to be compatible with, especially since there wouldn’t have been nearly as much humans for Imperfect Cell to absorb since he’s already in an apocalyptic setting there.
1. you have no reference of how bad the Future Z-Fighters were thrashed against the androids, hell even Gohan who was there couldn't tell how strong the androids were 2. in no part Dr. Gero stated he wanted to decrease 17 & 18's power, he just wanted them to be more obedient 3. Future Imperfect Cell also had no way to know how strong the androids were, they have no Chi to be detectable, also Future Cell absolutely was weaker than the Future Androids (even if they were truly weaker)
@@elyisusking3603 Stop being a contrarian for the sake of it and read the manga. Obviously Trunks is going to have a frame of reference since he fought them lol 2: You’re absolutely wrong. I literal just told you where they say where Dr gero supressed the androids. Its in the character bios in the manga. Read the manga. If you had read the manga, you would know that he deactivated and supressed them on multiple occasions in order to make them more obedient. 3: No. Cell’s Super Computer and Gero would literally tell them how strong they both would be and how strong HE HIMSELF would be. Why the hell wouldnt Cell know this? Why would Cell be weaker than the future Androids when Cell was released and ready? What sense does that make to have your ultimate plan be immediately ruined by your own other creations? Please stop wasting my time and being a contrarion and read the manga.
@@LucidTUN3S 1. my brother in christ, Gohan literally fought them for 14 years and he only found out the androids were holding back the day he died, you think Trunks WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN GOHAN ? and if he did, how would Trunks knew what was the androids true power if he had never seen them going all out and neither can sense their Chi 2. The manga NEVER EVER STATES that Dr. Gero reduced their powers, he only wanted them to become more obedient, that's the only part that was mentioned, the manga itself never said that shit and you're only making conclusion over vague statement 3. it's true that Cell knew Androids power, that was my mistake, HOWEVER, Cell knew exactly he wasn't ready to fight the Androids in the Present despite the fact that he came from another time, that is because he knew exactly how powerful they were also if Cell was truly stronger than the Androids from the moment he was born, how come Cell have to absorb other humans in orden to get stronger ? hell why Gero even bothered to give Cell that ability if he was just gonna be stronger than the Androids ? i will tell you the reason, because 17 & 18 were stronger than him and he knew, he even knew he wasn't ready to face the present androids despise having NO knowledge of how strong the Present Androids were, if you think i'm wasting your time, maybe you shouldn't be reading any manga at all
@@LucidTUN3S also if we were going with your logic that Dr. Gero reduced their powers, then the Present Androids should be in fact WEAKER than the future ones, as we know, 17 & 18 were deactivated in the present while in the Future were already destroying a city, meaning they were deactivated at some point when in the Future, 17 & 18 killed Gero
I think because you mentioned in another video that 18 was suppressed by Gero in order to try to control them, and within the present Trunks may have forced Gero to rush to release them before he tweaked them again resulting in them having more strength
That's a good point about what trunks said. The Android told Gohan they were using only a little bit of their strength, but that doesn't mean they told trunks this info. Maybe they were actually weaker but it's just like with Kid Buu they have more killer intent
This is a great video, I never thought of this. There is no way Trunks would know how truly strong the Androids were. Damn and even as a 17 fan I never even thought of this. I always thought the altered timeline changed things somehow.
Is it so impossible for Trunks to match the androids? Especially when he goes from weaker than Base Gohan as an SSJ, to as strong as him in Base in 3 years?
Consider that, in the manga, Future Gohan trains his base form against Trunks's Super Saiyan, I think Trunks is just lying to himself to talk himself up about his personal situation in his timeline. He has shown time after time to be prideful and overconfident like his dad, even if he is portrays it in a "nicer" way. Though, I believe the training was the opposite in the anime, been a while since I watched The History of Trunks. If that was the case, then Trunks could be stronger in the anime. But I also think Gohan was buffed in the anime to be close to on par with either 1 of the androids (had he had both arms at least) thanks to his Zenkai boost from the fight where he lost his arm and his training with Trunks. Given Gohan's 2 v 1 performance with 1 arm compared to Trunks's performance in his fight with the androids where they both lost, despite Trunks claiming to be stronger than Gohan, it very much came across as Trunks being far weaker than Gohan to where the androids wouldn't fight him seriously and were letting him live because they didn't see him as approaching a real threat they started to feel like Gohan was becoming. That was always my take. Trunks was prideful and not understanding just how outmatched he really was in any combat situation he found himself in, and always overestimated himself, and the androids were always looking for ways to cure their boredom and wouldn't bother killing anyone who could entertain them and posed no threat to them
I don't know if we should take SSJ Trunks sparring with Base Gohan literally. But after the 3 year timeskip, Bulma says that Trunks is stronger than Gohan was (according to Herms, Viz changed this to Bulma doubting Trunks is that strong). Though I still agree that the Future Androids are stronger than he thought.
@@TonyMishima92 Yeah, I guess at that point he might be a little. But doesn't he use that as his justification to 1 v 2 the androids before he goes to the past the first time? Is there any confirmation of him fighting the androids during that time skip? I thought he just trained in secret to be ready for when he would come back to the past again to make sure everyone was okay and that he could bring back a strong enough warrior to win the fight. I didn't think he had any fights from the timeskip to compare the future and past androids with. Maybe he did, but they probably still toyed with him since he was still green and far from the most effective fighter. Unlike Gohan who was able to pull off a ton of crazy techniques and tactics in his final fight and would have actually been a threat if he got strong enough to even somewhat have a chance of killing just one of them, if you treat his final battle from the anime special as canon, which I do just cause it's one of DBZs best, lol
@@Chronoflation i think when trunks in ssj was sparring with gohan in base he was holding back on top of it to make the power levels equal. The idea is that since Trunks was weaker than gohan at the time this was the only way for gohan to have a good spar that would actually help him grow stronger (since holding back to match trunks in base wouldn't push him at all)
One thing I thought of watching the video he doesn't mention: Why did 18 change clothes in the main timeline? Her clothes got ripped up while fighting Vegeta. You're probably thinking: And? Well, despite how many dozens of fights she was in in the future timeline.... NO ONE managed to inflict that level of harm to her! Yeah, it's kinda like realizing you're staring at a painting sideways. Vegeta in his fight where he gets owned by 18 and nearly killed... managed to hurt her more than ALL of the fights her future counterpart had ever been in put together! When you look at it THAT way.... future 18 suddenly looks a LOT more scary.
One thing I never really understood and would love your theory on is the fact that the future androids seem far more evil. Some folks like to say they just got bored because Goku was dead, but then why would they just start destroying a seemingly random island before the z fighters even show up? In the present they never destroyed anything, they didnt even kill anyone on their way to Kame house. Imo Gero did something to 17 and 18 to try and bring them under control, and while it clearly didnt fully work since they still kill him, they seem to want to follow their programming alot more, whereas the present androids just wanted to go after Goku for fun.
I do wonder if trunks was “wrong” about the 2 androids that showed up. It could’ve been Gero and 19 that showed up in the future but then they woke up 17 and 18 like in the present time. But he wouldn’t know
Originally androids 19 and 20 were the androids that were supposed to be the main villains but toriyama s editor ✍️ advised him to change the antagonists which later became 17 and 18 and eventually leading upto cell, since they thought 19 and 20 s designs looked very outdated
I figured they were stronger in our timeline(at least in the anime) because when Trunks went to cut Android 18 with his sword, she nonchalantly deflected it with her forearm and shattered it. Meanwhile in the Future Trunks movie when Trunks goes to cut 18 he misses as she dodges and looks visibly shaken as if it would have killed her if he landed that attack.
I think even tho he seen them at full power that fact that Android 17 was equal to or slightly stronger than a piccolo that trained for 3 years on top of fusing with Kami is a good scale to prove that they were at least a good bit stronger than their future counterparts.
Trunks said in the manga he went back and fought them as a ssj afterward and realized the limits of their power. So his statement and scaling is legit. It's also in the daizenshu. Gohan fans didn't want to accept he trained for 20 years and couldn't handle a weaker version of the androids. He also lost his arm from 17 at less than half strength making gohan even weaker than we thought. Also the daizenshu states they're weaker in the future
Trunks trying to keep his cool guy persona up with tien trying to convince him he could have a decent fight with androids at his place 😂😂 Boi yknow that's a damn lie! 😂
Very good video, however what you're not taking into account, is that present androids were ALSO holding back when fighting the Z fighters, so you could make an argument that since both versions were holding back, the present versions could be stronger, you could even say the present versions held back even more because they weren't evil
Trunks said in the manga he went back and fought them as a ssj afterward and realized the limits of their power. So his statement and scaling is legit. It's also in the daizenshu. Gohan fans didn't want to accept he trained for 20 years and couldn't handle a weaker version of the androids. He also lost his arm from 17 at less than half strength making gohan even weaker than we thought. Also the daizenshu states they're weaker in the future0
You do have your own points, but consider how casually the present androids are fighting them, it more so looks like their holding back more than the future androids, an example is that how you notice how 17 one shots Piccolo and Tien, and 18 broke Trunks’ Sword with a finger on accident, so if anything, the Present Androids seem to be holding back more compared to the future ones and that’s what your not taking into account.
I watched two videos and subscribed. I love how u summarize the panels and dialogue. Along with the expressions in your voice really tells the story with the discussion. Love it
When it comes to plotholes in DBZ there's always 3 things to remember. 1)Toriyama often forgets things. This is well known and acknowledged. 2) Toriyama just seems to go full improve, as we often see when his editor gets him to completely change out massive portions of the manga. 3) Toriyama sometimes makes massive series altering decisions based on increadibly petty out of universe reasons, like Super Saiyan resulting in him not wanting to keep inking in Goku's hair. It always makes looking at these little inconsistencies and oddies fun, trying to figure out if something was planned, if it was forgotten, if the editor talked him into it, or because he just didn't want to continue doing some random thing.
I too always wondered how much more powerful the present time-line androids were in comparison to future trunks time-line. Guess Toriyama just made it up so it can seem more interesting
The one thing I enjoyed about the history of trunks special was that Gohan was able to do well 1v1, but when it would turn to 2v1 he was doomed, showing why they were created in a pair and not a single android
I like to think that the Z-Fighters were fighting against destiny. It would have made the arc even better. But nah... I just assumed that the future androids were becoming worn or they weren't trying
I personally don't think so. (I didn't watch the video yet) it just makes no sense for them to be. Gero stopped tracking in the namek arc, so that wouldn't have been a factor. I'm willing to bet 17 was fighting at half strength, like he said he was against Gohan before deciding to kill him.. In the present, 17 said that 18 would have issues with everyone attacking her, so his full power was needed to put them down. As the name says, my two cents.
They were the same in terms of strength. The only thing is trunks didn't fight them at full power, so he thought he was somewhat close at having a good chance of beating them, but he didn't take into account they were just toying with him, because future 17 mentions he only used half his power to take out Gohan.
@@bethelsheunesumasukume352not really it's basically an assumption even if 17 wasn't bluffing he'd never have been as powerful as the one from the present timeline since their power was based on Goku's and Gero actually put them back to sleep to do more while in Trunks timeline he couldn't because they killed him the first time.
I'm trying to remember if it's the same in the anime, but every video game version of the anime fight between Gohan and the Androids, 18 says "kill him, full power." Before the two of them fight Gohan. So in the game version of the anime fight, at least, the Androids did go all out in their 2 on 1 against Gohan.
Hey yo! Your right! Shoot... I haven't thought about it till now. Trunks just assumed they were stronger in the present timeline because he technically only battles the suppressed version of them. And we just accepted it as kid's and wrote about a million power level lists 🙈 showing that . I mean jero made both versions in both timelines right? Why should we assume one pair is stronger than the other this is all on trunks. Trunks statement which on second look is kinda of a blind assumption. Yea. After all these years I am willing to admit that perhaps both pairs probably were the same strength. I remember him saying something in the order of. The ones I battled were stronger than me. But these new Androids strength is through the roof. With his perspective. Yeah. That makes sense. But as shown in the talk between ohan and 17 . 17 was indeed just playing around. So let me be the 1st to admit that yeah perhaps they always were the same strength and maybe we just trusted trunks wisdom a bit too much. Nice video. You're awesome btw
I've always said this, because of the actions Trunks takes during the Cell saga show his immaturity to fighting, knowledge about fighting and just in general how much like Vegeta he really is. Trunks can't be wrong, and if the story doesn't align he changes the narrative or has an excuse for why. He is literally his fathers son to a T without ever knowing his father.
I feel like it's likely some combination of Trunks never really got a proper idea of how powerful they really were, since they only ever messed around with him and Gohan, and that him telling the Z-Fighters that he was utterly outclassed by them resulted in some form of power creep in the main timeline - maybe not as much as we think but still a noticeable amount. Especially since there's at least a 3rd Time Line out there where Cell comes from and he was supposed to be, in his Imperfect Form anyway, able to overpower the Androids to absorb one yet when Piccolo confronts him - at a stage when Piccolo is supposed to be on par with 17 - he clearly decides its better to a do a runner than try to kill Piccolo. Admittedly this point has to have an Asterix next to it since: we don't know if Piccolo and 17 were actually evenly matched, and that Krillin and Future Trunks arrive on the scene when Cell and Piccolo are fighting changing it to 3-1 with Trunks at least was powerful enough to also be a significant threat to Cell rather than a weakness for Piccolo that Cell could have exploited.
I think it's possible that they were maybe slightly weaker in Trunks' timeline, but not much. Maybe like 10-15% at most, but the fact that 17 wasnt even going 50% against Gohan is a pretty good indication that they were nearly identical.
I don't know primarily for the fact that in trunks' timeline, the Z fighters weren't training for those 3 years expecting to have the threat of the Androids pop up and yet they still got 0 diffed by the Androids. Who mind you were only going hand to hand in the present timeline. And in the quick clips we see of them killing the Z fighters they're using a lot of teamwork instead of just fighting 1v3 like in the present. I think the main difference is that since goku didn't die to the heart virus, they're still holding back and having 16 there just keeps them from trying to go TOO crazy which is why they take more damage(well 18 did)
I always chalked it up to: like a computer degrades as the years go by. The future Androids were weaker in 14 years than fresh out the box current timeline
Before I watch the video, I'm gonna say yes. When you consider the newly acquired super sayian vegeta make light work of Android 19, then gets embarrassed by 18 and compare that to future Gohan being able to land shots on the future Androids, I'd say the the present Androids are stronger than the future ones. However, I don't recall any evidence that would make the present ones stronger than the future ones other than the writers doing so for the story
Enh... "land shots".... that don't really do anything. that's the part that is easy to miss. Until Trunks returns to his future NONE of the Z-fighters in his timeline was able to hurt the Androids as badly as Vegeta hurt 18 in his 1-on-1.... and that was barely enough to annoy her. Think about it... future 18 was still wearing the same outfit she was dressed in when Gero was reprogramming her. Never in all the fights she was in did she face an opponent who was able to damage her clothes. Kinda redefines the narrative when you see it that way.
my theory everything changed when trunks defeated mecha frieza and king cold because in trunks timeline goku was a little late to the fight so everyone was tired when goku defeated them both by using the ssj that rushed the symptoms of his hearth illness remember than in the original timeline goku only blocked some attacks from trunks in ssj while in trunks timeline he fought king cold and mecha frieza
In the main timeline, when Vegeta fights 18, the androids don't really know what the Z fighters are capable of yet, so it stand to reason that they would use more of their power to combat them until they can properly assess how strong Vegeta (and the other Z fighters) are when pushed to their max. In the future, 17 and 18 have encountered and beaten plenty of Z fighters, long before Trunks was old enough to join the fight, so they know how strong they are and how much of their power they can safely hold back. They seem 'weaker', because they know it's safe to hold back more. In the main timeline, that was 18's first fight, so she used more of her power (as did 17 when he bodied the rest of the Z fighters). I also believe that this is what ended biting them in the ass when Trunks eventually returned to his future. When he arrived to fight them again after Cell had been taken care of, they were completely unaware of just how big of a powerspike he'd gotten compared to when they fought last, so they were still holding back. And unlike Goku or Vegeta, Trunks is not the kind of fighter to hold back. He went hard on them right from the start and obliterated them before they realized how much stronger he'd actually gotten. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they would have won if they had gone full power, even if they teamed up, but they assumed Trunks was still an inexperienced greenhorn and he took advantage of that to put them in the ground before they realized how strong he'd actually become, so they never went to full power against him then either.
I don’t think they were the ones who were weaker compared to the H.O.T. timeline Z Fighters who had no prior warning of the android threat. No warning, no real reason to train as hard as they did in the timeline we know
Going off the anime Future Gohan would have been stronger than Goku, vegeta, trunks and even piccolo merged with kami. Piccolo was even against 17 but Gohan had the upper hand and only lost because 17 and 18 teamed him
the anime, Gohan seems to have Rage boost, so it is believable to think these rage boost helped him considerably, however, there's also a possibility of the Androids still playing with Gohan and Gohan rage boost was surpassing their suppressed power
I imagine "put up a decent fight" may simply mean in comparison to how badly they'd just been thrashed. And, like Mike says, I'd just assume the 'present' androids chose to simply hit harder against Tien, Trunks and Piccolo than the future counterparts did, as to make them stop. Seeing as how there's no indication that the present androids particularly enjoy beating up and torturing people significantly weaker than themselves (and didn't start a single fight outside of trying to get to Goku)
You make a compelling argument and I'd like to agree, but I think you have to address that for whatever reason, the future and present timelines are simply very different inherently.. Gero never turned himself into an android or released 19 in the future. So theoretically, in the future he released the Androids earlier than intended, and perhaps this could have weakened them slightly? While in the present he kept them docile and may have been continually working on their power (as well as their obedience) and this could account for the power difference.
Ugh I love dbz do much. When I was a kid I had some how got a Tapion toy, and I had absolutely no idea who he was, I believe he gave trunks his sword in a movie
I've always thought the androids were the same power level. Trunks just never got to see the future androids at full strength so seeing the present ones not holding back made him think they were stronger. We can use Vegeta as a barometer for their strength because he reached SSJ in both timelines. I think he would have the same amount of power but lost a 1v1 in both timelines.
I remember the episodes I think it’s the one he kills them they both tell him we were only using half our power when we fought you last time but trunks still butchered them cause his power at that point was leagues higher then theirs
Trunks fights them on his own after the History of Trunks events. And held his own. And they never stated they were holding back in the final confrontation. No evidence they ever held back in their encounters with Trunks after Gohan’s death.
No evidence that they didn't hold back. In History of Trunks 17 got frustrated with Trunks for climbing out of the lake before they could leave (probably because he wanted to leave Trunks alive but not let him know that he did). Look at how they fought him. They were undeniably toying with him - finding him when he was hiding - but not killing him. Also, when Trunks faces them the last time, 17 makes it clear that he'd rather not kill Trunks because they'd be "wasting weeks of fun". This makes it clear they've held back for more fun in future fights. He whispers it, he doesn't let Trunks hear this.
Trunks was pretty strong he killed main timeline Frieza wich was stronger and future android s were playing with him on like main timeline counterpart s so yes the future android s are not to down play them and to know Gohan lives cuz they let him is clear they are very strong I wish we can see the true power to know how really strong they we're
@@number3stunner118 1. No evidence vs. Statement from Trunks means the Statement wins. 2. In the manga, only 17 fights Gohan, but Trunks says "them", implying he fought both of them. 3. No he didn't. You're lying.
@@fuckthisstupidasshandleshit 1. Trunks isn't a reliable source - as evidenced by it never being clear that he was right about surpassing Vegeta. Even he doesn't know if Vegeta can go USSJ 2. What does that prove about anything? What is the connection to what you said to anything I did? See how I'm numbering my points to coincide with your numbers so that you know what I'm referring to? My first post didn't have numbers - meaning just because you typed numbers doesn't make it clear what each of your paragraphs is referring to, genius. 3. Not even sure what you're referring to (see point 2 above) - but if you're referring to what I said 17 said, yes he did. The clip is easily searchable on TH-cam. Also, eat shit.
We KNOW due to several times it's mentioned, that they ARE weaker, but, more dangerous, like Kid Buu, because he has lost all morality, thus unrestrainted destruction. It's these same morals that stop Beerus just turning into an unfeeling destructive force.
The only reliable source of their power level comes from a kid who when facing Cell when into bulk mode because "more power", something even Vegeta knows to be foolish. Trunks has his fathers arrogance, and thus it can easily be concluded that there are no differences in the power of the androids of current or future time lines. It would be pretty stupid writing if Dr. Gero made them weaker in the past. Had Trunks not time travelled and split into the multiverse the androids he fights would just magically get weaker when the present time line unleashed the androids.
Imagine that Future Lord Beerus and Whis arrived on Earth and sees it in ruins then they notice Android 17 and 18 are hurting Future Trunks, then the androids confront them then they’re Destroyed By Future Lord Beerus
Glasses?
Yep.
@@LSMMIKE you're an old man now. Grandfather Mike of the OG DB content creators.
@@LSMMIKE please bring back the yyh content. 🙏🏽
Keep the glasses. You look less cult leader like with them on. Felt like you were gonna ask me to drink blood from a chalice & sacrifice a virgin or something. Glasses look good bro👍
@LSMMIKE distinguished af bro 👊
Future Gohan was really fighting the androids for like a decade only for them to say "lmao we're just holding back" and get killed.
They literally clowned him to death 💀
Where were the zenkai boost in the future when you needed them lol
@@rashadbeckham7141 go watch “ Future Gohan got beat up for years” video
@@rashadbeckham7141 the future lacked plot armor and only acted as a plot device to further the main storyline.
@@TheUKisThere lol
Lmao
Trunks didnt do enough pushups, situps , nor drank enough juice
He didn't train all day yesterday
Leg raises are more efficient then situps.
thanks, rewatching all of dbz abridged now because of you
WHAT KIND OF JUICE?
He had plenty of juice 💉
I got the feeling that the Future Androids were just as strong, but they just never fought seriously. Remember Future 17 was able to fight on par with Future Gohan with less than 50% of his power. It is implied when he gets serious, Future Gohan dies very quickly. Trunks THINKS they were weaker, but he never forced them to get serious, the whole time they were toying with him.
The Present Androids did not mess around.
Trunks obviously fought them between the three years wait. Where he's stronger. We see vegeta give 18 a good fight.
@AGamerAarondefinitely this. future androids were cocky compared to the present counterparts
@@Jiron127 18 was toying with vegeta the whole fight
@@Jiron127 18 wasn't at her max she was holding back against vegeta
@@jhonnycaicedo5647 Even when she raises her power to her maximum, she still has to wait for Vegeta to drain his stamina before she can dominate him.
Ayo I'm loving the dbz discussions. Feels nostalgic like pre super.
A better time
@@kakarotblakeAmen.
That's what I love about these videos.
Yes there are ALOT of gaps to fill for the Future Timeline. Like there are alot of things to discuss.
Those were the days
Wow. This actually made me think about the whole 17 and 18 power levels entirely differently. I never thought about the fact that Trunks probably never saw 17 and 18 at full power.
Yeah, the fandom in the day seemed to assume he did.... but really.... he didn't. When he goes back to the future to kill them... it's not until AFTER Cell Games when he's WAY stronger than when he killed Frieza.
Is power scaling really matter in Dragon ball I mean Broly in his great ape form(basically less than a normal ssj) beat the crap out of ssj God Goku like WTF
@@jaimonjohn2516you really did it. You really brought super into this. The power scaling in that show alone is all over the place.
@@wegoku7274 power scaling also all over the place in DBZ too especially in the Buu saga
@@marhawkman303 Trunks does kill 17 & 18 with just his above frieza powerlevel. That's why everyone assume 17 & 18 are weaker.
I think he might be taking in to account that they did all that training and were still so outclassed
The fact that they
@@rahstakksz713 your original sentence was correct bro don't worry
We don't really know how much stronger they were, though. They still had reasons to train. All of them either died or nearly died leading up to Goku becoming a SSJ. It's possible that they still trained hard in the original timeline after everything that happened (including Frieza coming to destroy the earth - and them not knowing for a fact that there weren't others like him lurking).
My point being that logic would suggest that they got stronger - but it may not have even been by much, because it would make sense for them to want to train after everything that had happened.
There's a lot of moving parts to this discussion that make it very hard to judge.
- Future 17 & 18 while, apparently, "holding back" did happily gang up on single opponents, Gohan and Trunks as well as likely the rest of the Z-Fighters, while 'our' 17 & 18 tended to fight as individuals.
- We don't know how powerful Future Gohan was compared to Future Trunks.
- We don't even really know if 17 & 18's statement that they'd been holding back just means they didn't fight to kill Gohan previously and or that they were each easily far more powerful than him.
- We don't know what parameters Gero, and or his AIs, used to work out how powerful any of the Androids needed to be and thus if they'd have been changed by the Z-Fighters training more, especially since 19 and 20 are taken off guard by the SSJ transformation (and definitely can't actually contend with it) but DNA was collected from Frieza and King Cold.
What I always found interesting was how ki blast heavy the future androids were. The androids in the present timeline never used any energy attacks. I remember 18 using some to keep semi perfect cell at bay and she used the energy disk on mighty mask but 17? nope.
17 did use a barrier against Piccolo when Piccolo used his Hellzone Grenade
Cuz in the future they just wanna slide.
Don’t forget they are impressionable teenager, in the future, maybe they weren’t so evil in the beginning but took a liking in their destructive nature. Here, at first they didn’t even want to fight the Z fighters and they got C16 to prevent them from going rogue, so I think C16 and the fact that they never got the chance to taste being destructive thanks to him, is why they are like that
@@elmousse007 Agreed
It's because filler always used ki blasts back in Z. That's why GT was riddled with them too. It was a thing that Ki Blasts just looked really cool, and our child brains loved it lol. I personally hate the small ki blasts because they never work.
You really do sound like Android 17, I would love to hear you narrate a story from his point of view.
Stop the cap
It's implied that Dr. Gero found the Cell pupae, causing the timeline to change even more than Trunks anticipated.
It is implied that Dr. Gero beefed up the Androids to make Perfect Cell even more powerful as his last Ace in the hole.
I think the reason your videos aren’t getting pushed to a bigger audience is because of your video quality. It looks like 720p at 30fps. TH-cam pushes content with 1080p at 60fps (or more) because it’s deemed more important.
Just a thought!! Love your content man 💜
My videos are 1080p 60fps(with some select videos being made in 4K). TH-cam compresses them a lot when I upload them. Also early on video quality may not appear as high.
@@LSMMIKE The way Future Trunks talked about the Androids in his Timeline made me confused, since he stated that even though the future versions of Android 17 and Android were weaker than their present counterparts, they were still able to kill most of the Humans and the Future Z-Fighters. Not only that, but they were also able to destroy countless Cities as well.
I think, because Trunks and Gohan always "managed" to escape after every fight, not knowing the androids were allowing them to, they felt like with a bit more training, they could eventually destroy them.
Ofcourse, they were no where near the androids in terms of power.
I wonder if Gohan was perhaps 30-40% of 17's power.
It would make sense that Trunks feels that his timeline androids were weaker, when they were just messing around this whole time.
I thought that because they were now training to get stronger since Trunks warned them about the Androids, Dr. Geros spy robots were monitering their strength and he increased the strength of 17 and 18 to exceed the strength of the z fighters with the added training, which would be higher than that of the z fighters who weren't training in Trunks timeline.
Dr gero had stopped watching them when they left for Namek
@@everettjohnson9374 No, they were always watching and collecting data. Cell even shows one of the spy drones to Piccolo while he's explaining his origin.
@@Ace_of_Horns the computer kept collecting data for cell, but Gero did not look at any of that data. As evidence he was surprised by SSJ and how strong Vegeta was transformed.
Gero himself is taken utterly by surprise by how strong the Z-Fighters actually are when he and 19 attack, even beyond Goku and Vegeta's SSJ transformations "Not him too...", so whatever calculations and such he made they're definitely off in the main timeline, how or if that'd impact on how strong 17 & 18 are in each timeline isn't clear.
@@MLaak86 well it appears to me that Goku didn't go super saiyan during his training with piccolo and gohan in order to keep things even
I never believed in that statement. Future Gohan and Trunks might’ve been able to land some decent hits on the androids, but they never did any significant damage to them to force them to use their full power. Trunks just assumed that since his father was stronger than him, he lasted awhile against 18, and when the androids took them out quickly, that they were stronger than their future counterparts. Trunks had some decent strength, but he was inexperienced at this point. The only thing he got right was that 17 and 18 were too strong .
And that the future versions were weaker. If they were the exact same strength, Cell wouldn't need to absorb anyone, given he wouldn't pursue the Androids or Trunks if he was weaker than them.
Trunks said in the manga he went back and fought them as a ssj afterward and realized the limits of their power. So his statement and scaling is legit. It's also in the daizenshu. Gohan fans didn't want to accept he trained for 20 years and couldn't handle a weaker version of the androids. He also lost his arm from 17 at less than half strength making gohan even weaker than we thought. Also the daizenshu states they're weaker in the future
Also the Future 17 & 18 frequently ganged up on Future Gohan and Trunks, while the main timeline 17 & 18 tended to actually fight as individuals, which makes it even harder to really gauge their strength.
Plus the fact how much strength 17 is able to acquire in a short amount of time, even to match Blue Goku
Short? He was training for more then 10 years and unlike Goku he has unlimited stamina
Ew why are you bringing up trash super where master roshi is suddenly ssj stats or more? That shows for children.
@@whydoyoukeeptalking Yes, Dragon Ball. Famously not a children's cartoon lmao.
I'm sure it is just head cannon, but I always just assumed since gero was monitoring the fighters to gain information/cells to create Cell, I figured he parlayed that info into the androids as well, and since the z fighters trained extra hard for 3 years, the main line androids had a deeper pool of information to gain from. Goku was the only super Saiyan in the future timeline, but by the time we see the androids in the main timeline, Goku, trunks and Vegeta have all became ssj in addition to the lesser cast increasing their power to prepare for the upcoming threat.
Good point, though Dr. Gero still wasn't even aware of Goku being a Super Saiyan except in the anime later on 16 had data about super Saiyan Goku when Bulma and her father were looking through his mind
I don't think so, because 19 and 20 had outdated information on everyone, and didn't know about Super Saiyans. That seems to indicate the data harvested by the drones over the last few years were only fed to Gero's computer and to Cell, and not to Gero himself. Which is kind of a plot hole, in my opinion, because Gero being a genius scientist, he should know that knowledge is power, and should have made sure to benefit from his computer's information. I guess the whole point was to make the story more dynamic, through the androids getting caught off guard by having miscalculated everything (or rather, they probably calculated right... but from outdated data).
I've never been soul set on the manga but I always went off of Piccolo's analysis because there was a moment when 18 said she may have to use her full power on Super Saiyan Vegeta. That fight was close to equal but to be fair she beat Vegeta waisting his energy and stamina out of arrogance. Then there was the moment Trunks swung his sword at her and it cracked on her arm. His face was in shock and my theory is when he fought the androids in his time they dodged his sword like it was a threat. But then he witnessed it just get broken just by her blocking it, it was the defining factor of the difference.🤔
The video's value is not defined by the amount of audience it has, keep it up, great stuff. Thank you.
It is explained in anime version through breaking of trunks sword. In that moment he notices that they are stronger in this timeline. I don't know if this happened in manga
you mean the sword he had never used on 18 yet? We DON'T see her take a sword hit in the future.
@@marhawkman303 Trunks had that sword for three years, and never used it against his main enemy?
@@fuckthisstupidasshandleshit Oh we KNOW Trunks used it... but it never BROKE until he tried it in the present. in the future 18 did silly stuff like dodging a sword strike than standing on the blade. But she never broke it.
@@marhawkman303 Which would indicate Present 18 is stronger, no?
This way to explain it is good. I liked the theory used in Dragon Ball Multiverse more but it's been (implicitely) disproved by Super... Basically this theory is that it's not that 17 and 18 are stronger in the main timeline, it's that they got weaker in Trunk's timeline, it's summed up in one cool quote: "There's no such thing as infinite energy."
The point of this theory is, with no one to do any sort of maintenance on them, their artificial part, especially the infinite energy reactor, are gradually deteriorating, slowly making the androids weaker over time.
Now that you mentioned it, I can absolutely hear the Android 17 in your voice
Power wise, I assumed the Androids were pretty much the same, I think the biggest difference is their personality.
Present isn't quite as evil as the future, and having 16 helped too keeping them alil more down to Earth.
Trunks future ones where always playing around and holding back, letting him and Gohan get some hits in making it seem from Trunks perspective he had a chance, while present ones didn't drag things out as much and was more serious giving a stronger impression.
yeah, 18 took Vegeta very seriously, and gave no quarter. She fought cautiously and carefully.
It’s lucky 16 was in the present
If 16 had the same personality in Trunk’s future, he would’ve killed 17 and 18
@@aceclover758 Enh... I dunno about that. 16 didn't really feel much in the way of protecting Humans. mostly he just stood back and watched. He attacked Cell to save 18, not Humans.
@@marhawkman303 What I mean is 16 likes the Earth, nature. He hates needless destruction
Just like he wanted to kill Cell because he saw him as a “threat to the Earth”. Same way he would see future 17 and 18
@@aceclover758 hmm... they didn't really blow up that much stuff though. kill humans? loads, raze the planet as a whole? nah.
This is a really good question. Makes me wish they would release a post battle power levels for Z after the Freeza saga.
Yeah except it would probably be nonsensical lol, the power scaling is stupid post-Namek.
Indeed, I think the best thing we've got is that Trunks is supposedly weaker than Goku was at the end of the Freiza saga but still strong enough to easily kill Frieza in his final form.
It might be cheating to take the much later super lore into account. But if 17 is capable of getting so much stronger over time through training, then maybe future 17 and 18 just naturally got weaker over time from slacking off. They clearly never cared about pushing themselves or self improvement. And just had fun slaughtering helpless earthlings and beating up gohan and trunks.
I’ve always thought that the present time Androids were stronger than their future counterparts because of these reasons:
1: The warriors had 3 years prep time and STILL got trashed unlike their caught off guard future counterparts. Trunks would atleast have some frame of reference there.
2: Dr Gero was already in the works of supressing the Androids’s power to balance their obediencey going by 17 and 18’s description in the manga, so they, by inevitability, had their powers lowered during that 3 year process.
3: Future Imperfect Cell would’ve gotten absolutely destroyed by present time 17 and 18, which would make sense since they are on Super Piccolo’s level / non supressed since they were released too early to begin with. Future Cell would’ve absorbed the future Androids just fine since they were designed weaker to be compatible with, especially since there wouldn’t have been nearly as much humans for Imperfect Cell to absorb since he’s already in an apocalyptic setting there.
Yeah I feel like they are significantly stronger.
1. you have no reference of how bad the Future Z-Fighters were thrashed against the androids, hell even Gohan who was there couldn't tell how strong the androids were
2. in no part Dr. Gero stated he wanted to decrease 17 & 18's power, he just wanted them to be more obedient
3. Future Imperfect Cell also had no way to know how strong the androids were, they have no Chi to be detectable, also Future Cell absolutely was weaker than the Future Androids (even if they were truly weaker)
@@elyisusking3603 Stop being a contrarian for the sake of it and read the manga. Obviously Trunks is going to have a frame of reference since he fought them lol
2: You’re absolutely wrong. I literal just told you where they say where Dr gero supressed the androids. Its in the character bios in the manga. Read the manga. If you had read the manga, you would know that he deactivated and supressed them on multiple occasions in order to make them more obedient.
3: No. Cell’s Super Computer and Gero would literally tell them how strong they both would be and how strong HE HIMSELF would be. Why the hell wouldnt Cell know this? Why would Cell be weaker than the future Androids when Cell was released and ready? What sense does that make to have your ultimate plan be immediately ruined by your own other creations? Please stop wasting my time and being a contrarion and read the manga.
@@LucidTUN3S
1. my brother in christ, Gohan literally fought them for 14 years and he only found out the androids were holding back the day he died, you think Trunks WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN GOHAN ? and if he did, how would Trunks knew what was the androids true power if he had never seen them going all out and neither can sense their Chi
2. The manga NEVER EVER STATES that Dr. Gero reduced their powers, he only wanted them to become more obedient, that's the only part that was mentioned, the manga itself never said that shit and you're only making conclusion over vague statement
3. it's true that Cell knew Androids power, that was my mistake, HOWEVER, Cell knew exactly he wasn't ready to fight the Androids in the Present despite the fact that he came from another time, that is because he knew exactly how powerful they were
also if Cell was truly stronger than the Androids from the moment he was born, how come Cell have to absorb other humans in orden to get stronger ? hell why Gero even bothered to give Cell that ability if he was just gonna be stronger than the Androids ? i will tell you the reason, because 17 & 18 were stronger than him and he knew, he even knew he wasn't ready to face the present androids despise having NO knowledge of how strong the Present Androids were, if you think i'm wasting your time, maybe you shouldn't be reading any manga at all
@@LucidTUN3S also if we were going with your logic that Dr. Gero reduced their powers, then the Present Androids should be in fact WEAKER than the future ones, as we know, 17 & 18 were deactivated in the present while in the Future were already destroying a city, meaning they were deactivated at some point when in the Future, 17 & 18 killed Gero
I find it wildly hilarious that Gohan/Trunks’ fight against the androids was for their lives, and for the androids it was just light training 😂
Ah yes, :D
"For you it was a fight desperately clinging to life."
"For me it was my Tuesday workout."
And it was Tuesday lol
I think because you mentioned in another video that 18 was suppressed by Gero in order to try to control them, and within the present Trunks may have forced Gero to rush to release them before he tweaked them again resulting in them having more strength
That's a good point about what trunks said. The Android told Gohan they were using only a little bit of their strength, but that doesn't mean they told trunks this info. Maybe they were actually weaker but it's just like with Kid Buu they have more killer intent
So many twists and turns in this case.
Imagine going into a fight with form you have 0 experience with, that's Vegeta for you
This is a great video, I never thought of this. There is no way Trunks would know how truly strong the Androids were. Damn and even as a 17 fan I never even thought of this. I always thought the altered timeline changed things somehow.
Is it so impossible for Trunks to match the androids? Especially when he goes from weaker than Base Gohan as an SSJ, to as strong as him in Base in 3 years?
@@fuckthisstupidasshandleshit and even then, that Trunks was weaker than Yadrat Goku
“People say I sound like #17” as he ironically says it in #17’s voice
You have a good 75% of 17's voice and cadence.
I did think about it a bit a long time ago, but Bulma was alive..why didn't she make Gohan a prosthetic arm/mechanical arm to fight with?
Consider that, in the manga, Future Gohan trains his base form against Trunks's Super Saiyan, I think Trunks is just lying to himself to talk himself up about his personal situation in his timeline. He has shown time after time to be prideful and overconfident like his dad, even if he is portrays it in a "nicer" way. Though, I believe the training was the opposite in the anime, been a while since I watched The History of Trunks. If that was the case, then Trunks could be stronger in the anime. But I also think Gohan was buffed in the anime to be close to on par with either 1 of the androids (had he had both arms at least) thanks to his Zenkai boost from the fight where he lost his arm and his training with Trunks. Given Gohan's 2 v 1 performance with 1 arm compared to Trunks's performance in his fight with the androids where they both lost, despite Trunks claiming to be stronger than Gohan, it very much came across as Trunks being far weaker than Gohan to where the androids wouldn't fight him seriously and were letting him live because they didn't see him as approaching a real threat they started to feel like Gohan was becoming.
That was always my take. Trunks was prideful and not understanding just how outmatched he really was in any combat situation he found himself in, and always overestimated himself, and the androids were always looking for ways to cure their boredom and wouldn't bother killing anyone who could entertain them and posed no threat to them
I don't know if we should take SSJ Trunks sparring with Base Gohan literally. But after the 3 year timeskip, Bulma says that Trunks is stronger than Gohan was (according to Herms, Viz changed this to Bulma doubting Trunks is that strong). Though I still agree that the Future Androids are stronger than he thought.
@@TonyMishima92 Yeah, I guess at that point he might be a little. But doesn't he use that as his justification to 1 v 2 the androids before he goes to the past the first time? Is there any confirmation of him fighting the androids during that time skip? I thought he just trained in secret to be ready for when he would come back to the past again to make sure everyone was okay and that he could bring back a strong enough warrior to win the fight. I didn't think he had any fights from the timeskip to compare the future and past androids with.
Maybe he did, but they probably still toyed with him since he was still green and far from the most effective fighter. Unlike Gohan who was able to pull off a ton of crazy techniques and tactics in his final fight and would have actually been a threat if he got strong enough to even somewhat have a chance of killing just one of them, if you treat his final battle from the anime special as canon, which I do just cause it's one of DBZs best, lol
But canonically Trunks do kill 17 & 18 after getting back from the past, hence Cell exists in the mainline.
@@Chronoflation i think when trunks in ssj was sparring with gohan in base he was holding back on top of it to make the power levels equal. The idea is that since Trunks was weaker than gohan at the time this was the only way for gohan to have a good spar that would actually help him grow stronger (since holding back to match trunks in base wouldn't push him at all)
@@pc_screen5478 fair. Taking turns being super saiyan would let them both train really well
Great video, when I read the title I said of course but you presented evidence that can't be denied.
One thing I thought of watching the video he doesn't mention: Why did 18 change clothes in the main timeline? Her clothes got ripped up while fighting Vegeta.
You're probably thinking: And?
Well, despite how many dozens of fights she was in in the future timeline.... NO ONE managed to inflict that level of harm to her! Yeah, it's kinda like realizing you're staring at a painting sideways. Vegeta in his fight where he gets owned by 18 and nearly killed... managed to hurt her more than ALL of the fights her future counterpart had ever been in put together!
When you look at it THAT way.... future 18 suddenly looks a LOT more scary.
@@marhawkman303 great point!
Really digging these types of videos! Keep up the great work 👍
One thing I never really understood and would love your theory on is the fact that the future androids seem far more evil. Some folks like to say they just got bored because Goku was dead, but then why would they just start destroying a seemingly random island before the z fighters even show up? In the present they never destroyed anything, they didnt even kill anyone on their way to Kame house. Imo Gero did something to 17 and 18 to try and bring them under control, and while it clearly didnt fully work since they still kill him, they seem to want to follow their programming alot more, whereas the present androids just wanted to go after Goku for fun.
Oh no, Chiaotzu!!! And he really let himself go :O
... you do vaguely kinda sound like 17's VA at times now that you mention it.
I do wonder if trunks was “wrong” about the 2 androids that showed up. It could’ve been Gero and 19 that showed up in the future but then they woke up 17 and 18 like in the present time. But he wouldn’t know
Future 19 and future 20 did that. Correct.
Originally androids 19 and 20 were the androids that were supposed to be the main villains but toriyama s editor ✍️ advised him to change the antagonists which later became 17 and 18 and eventually leading upto cell, since they thought 19 and 20 s designs looked very outdated
@@dr.samarsarkar8791 im aware
I figured they were stronger in our timeline(at least in the anime) because when Trunks went to cut Android 18 with his sword, she nonchalantly deflected it with her forearm and shattered it. Meanwhile in the Future Trunks movie when Trunks goes to cut 18 he misses as she dodges and looks visibly shaken as if it would have killed her if he landed that attack.
Trunks was really gassing himself up like he wasn't getting his ass kicked by his 17 and 18 💀
@@ic3_115 Until he did 3 years of training in the time chamber and destroyed future 17 and 18 like it was nothing.💀
God seeing the manga gets you as depressed as Trunks...makes you wanna chug wine and smoke a cig 😭
I think even tho he seen them at full power that fact that Android 17 was equal to or slightly stronger than a piccolo that trained for 3 years on top of fusing with Kami is a good scale to prove that they were at least a good bit stronger than their future counterparts.
Trunks said in the manga he went back and fought them as a ssj afterward and realized the limits of their power. So his statement and scaling is legit. It's also in the daizenshu. Gohan fans didn't want to accept he trained for 20 years and couldn't handle a weaker version of the androids. He also lost his arm from 17 at less than half strength making gohan even weaker than we thought. Also the daizenshu states they're weaker in the future
Awesome video as always
These new Videos be hitting bro. Keep it up
You pronounce your words more clearly than Chuck’s Android 17 voice. Plus, yours is more soft spoken. But I can see the similarities 😊
Trunks trying to keep his cool guy persona up with tien trying to convince him he could have a decent fight with androids at his place 😂😂
Boi yknow that's a damn lie! 😂
Very good video, however what you're not taking into account, is that present androids were ALSO holding back when fighting the Z fighters, so you could make an argument that since both versions were holding back, the present versions could be stronger, you could even say the present versions held back even more because they weren't evil
Trunks said in the manga he went back and fought them as a ssj afterward and realized the limits of their power. So his statement and scaling is legit. It's also in the daizenshu. Gohan fans didn't want to accept he trained for 20 years and couldn't handle a weaker version of the androids. He also lost his arm from 17 at less than half strength making gohan even weaker than we thought. Also the daizenshu states they're weaker in the future0
Dragon ball really has inspired others to lose weight 👏👏👏always great content and voice over too
You do have your own points, but consider how casually the present androids are fighting them, it more so looks like their holding back more than the future androids, an example is that how you notice how 17 one shots Piccolo and Tien, and 18 broke Trunks’ Sword with a finger on accident, so if anything, the Present Androids seem to be holding back more compared to the future ones and that’s what your not taking into account.
I watched two videos and subscribed. I love how u summarize the panels and dialogue. Along with the expressions in your voice really tells the story with the discussion. Love it
When it comes to plotholes in DBZ there's always 3 things to remember. 1)Toriyama often forgets things. This is well known and acknowledged. 2) Toriyama just seems to go full improve, as we often see when his editor gets him to completely change out massive portions of the manga. 3) Toriyama sometimes makes massive series altering decisions based on increadibly petty out of universe reasons, like Super Saiyan resulting in him not wanting to keep inking in Goku's hair.
It always makes looking at these little inconsistencies and oddies fun, trying to figure out if something was planned, if it was forgotten, if the editor talked him into it, or because he just didn't want to continue doing some random thing.
Would love to see you bring back some YYH or HxH content. DB is cool, but there are other shounen out there worth going deeper on
I too always wondered how much more powerful the present time-line androids were in comparison to future trunks time-line. Guess Toriyama just made it up so it can seem more interesting
The one thing I enjoyed about the history of trunks special was that Gohan was able to do well 1v1, but when it would turn to 2v1 he was doomed, showing why they were created in a pair and not a single android
I like to think that the Z-Fighters were fighting against destiny. It would have made the arc even better. But nah... I just assumed that the future androids were becoming worn or they weren't trying
Never seen you with glasses. Int+2 greetings from germany
I personally don't think so. (I didn't watch the video yet) it just makes no sense for them to be. Gero stopped tracking in the namek arc, so that wouldn't have been a factor. I'm willing to bet 17 was fighting at half strength, like he said he was against Gohan before deciding to kill him..
In the present, 17 said that 18 would have issues with everyone attacking her, so his full power was needed to put them down.
As the name says, my two cents.
They were the same in terms of strength. The only thing is trunks didn't fight them at full power, so he thought he was somewhat close at having a good chance of beating them, but he didn't take into account they were just toying with him, because future 17 mentions he only used half his power to take out Gohan.
Wow. That really clears things up a bit.
@@bethelsheunesumasukume352not really it's basically an assumption even if 17 wasn't bluffing he'd never have been as powerful as the one from the present timeline since their power was based on Goku's and Gero actually put them back to sleep to do more while in Trunks timeline he couldn't because they killed him the first time.
That makes a lot of sense, actually.
Trunks got stronger during the three year wait. Obviously fought them here and there.
@@Jiron127 I doubt it, but it's a scenario to consider
I'm trying to remember if it's the same in the anime, but every video game version of the anime fight between Gohan and the Androids, 18 says "kill him, full power." Before the two of them fight Gohan.
So in the game version of the anime fight, at least, the Androids did go all out in their 2 on 1 against Gohan.
I've just discovered your channel, and your videos just feel different from the other anime commentators, love your style bro, keep it up king
Hey yo! Your right! Shoot... I haven't thought about it till now. Trunks just assumed they were stronger in the present timeline because he technically only battles the suppressed version of them. And we just accepted it as kid's and wrote about a million power level lists 🙈 showing that . I mean jero made both versions in both timelines right? Why should we assume one pair is stronger than the other this is all on trunks. Trunks statement which on second look is kinda of a blind assumption. Yea. After all these years I am willing to admit that perhaps both pairs probably were the same strength. I remember him saying something in the order of. The ones I battled were stronger than me. But these new Androids strength is through the roof. With his perspective. Yeah. That makes sense. But as shown in the talk between ohan and 17 . 17 was indeed just playing around. So let me be the 1st to admit that yeah perhaps they always were the same strength and maybe we just trusted trunks wisdom a bit too much. Nice video. You're awesome btw
I've always said this, because of the actions Trunks takes during the Cell saga show his immaturity to fighting, knowledge about fighting and just in general how much like Vegeta he really is.
Trunks can't be wrong, and if the story doesn't align he changes the narrative or has an excuse for why. He is literally his fathers son to a T without ever knowing his father.
Android 17 and 18 are my favs is well so I'm glad you said 17 one of your favs also good Video :)
It must be because the time they escaped their pods. I imagine Gero maintained control of them
I feel like it's likely some combination of Trunks never really got a proper idea of how powerful they really were, since they only ever messed around with him and Gohan, and that him telling the Z-Fighters that he was utterly outclassed by them resulted in some form of power creep in the main timeline - maybe not as much as we think but still a noticeable amount.
Especially since there's at least a 3rd Time Line out there where Cell comes from and he was supposed to be, in his Imperfect Form anyway, able to overpower the Androids to absorb one yet when Piccolo confronts him - at a stage when Piccolo is supposed to be on par with 17 - he clearly decides its better to a do a runner than try to kill Piccolo.
Admittedly this point has to have an Asterix next to it since: we don't know if Piccolo and 17 were actually evenly matched, and that Krillin and Future Trunks arrive on the scene when Cell and Piccolo are fighting changing it to 3-1 with Trunks at least was powerful enough to also be a significant threat to Cell rather than a weakness for Piccolo that Cell could have exploited.
The androids are around the same power level. Nobody could defeat them because they didn’t use the hyperbolic time chamber
I think it's possible that they were maybe slightly weaker in Trunks' timeline, but not much. Maybe like 10-15% at most, but the fact that 17 wasnt even going 50% against Gohan is a pretty good indication that they were nearly identical.
Trunks changes to the original timeline made a lot of events change so i would prolly say ye
Love your videos. I'm glad you're back Mike!
Another great analysis 👍
I don't know primarily for the fact that in trunks' timeline, the Z fighters weren't training for those 3 years expecting to have the threat of the Androids pop up and yet they still got 0 diffed by the Androids. Who mind you were only going hand to hand in the present timeline. And in the quick clips we see of them killing the Z fighters they're using a lot of teamwork instead of just fighting 1v3 like in the present.
I think the main difference is that since goku didn't die to the heart virus, they're still holding back and having 16 there just keeps them from trying to go TOO crazy which is why they take more damage(well 18 did)
I always chalked it up to: like a computer degrades as the years go by. The future Androids were weaker in 14 years than fresh out the box current timeline
Before I watch the video, I'm gonna say yes. When you consider the newly acquired super sayian vegeta make light work of Android 19, then gets embarrassed by 18 and compare that to future Gohan being able to land shots on the future Androids, I'd say the the present Androids are stronger than the future ones. However, I don't recall any evidence that would make the present ones stronger than the future ones other than the writers doing so for the story
Enh... "land shots".... that don't really do anything. that's the part that is easy to miss. Until Trunks returns to his future NONE of the Z-fighters in his timeline was able to hurt the Androids as badly as Vegeta hurt 18 in his 1-on-1.... and that was barely enough to annoy her.
Think about it... future 18 was still wearing the same outfit she was dressed in when Gero was reprogramming her. Never in all the fights she was in did she face an opponent who was able to damage her clothes. Kinda redefines the narrative when you see it that way.
@@marhawkman303 good point. Battle scuffs and tattered clothing is an indication that some damage may have been done, but there wasn't any
my theory everything changed when trunks defeated mecha frieza and king cold because in trunks timeline goku was a little late to the fight so everyone was tired when goku defeated them both by using the ssj that rushed the symptoms of his hearth illness remember than in the original timeline goku only blocked some attacks from trunks in ssj while in trunks timeline he fought king cold and mecha frieza
In the main timeline, when Vegeta fights 18, the androids don't really know what the Z fighters are capable of yet, so it stand to reason that they would use more of their power to combat them until they can properly assess how strong Vegeta (and the other Z fighters) are when pushed to their max.
In the future, 17 and 18 have encountered and beaten plenty of Z fighters, long before Trunks was old enough to join the fight, so they know how strong they are and how much of their power they can safely hold back. They seem 'weaker', because they know it's safe to hold back more. In the main timeline, that was 18's first fight, so she used more of her power (as did 17 when he bodied the rest of the Z fighters).
I also believe that this is what ended biting them in the ass when Trunks eventually returned to his future. When he arrived to fight them again after Cell had been taken care of, they were completely unaware of just how big of a powerspike he'd gotten compared to when they fought last, so they were still holding back. And unlike Goku or Vegeta, Trunks is not the kind of fighter to hold back. He went hard on them right from the start and obliterated them before they realized how much stronger he'd actually gotten. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they would have won if they had gone full power, even if they teamed up, but they assumed Trunks was still an inexperienced greenhorn and he took advantage of that to put them in the ground before they realized how strong he'd actually become, so they never went to full power against him then either.
Question: who would win based on their showcases? Hirudegarn or Buuhan? I ask as Hirudegarn one shots Gohan and Gotenks.
Very nice analisys.
Banger after banger of videos lately bro
I don’t think they were the ones who were weaker compared to the H.O.T. timeline Z Fighters who had no prior warning of the android threat. No warning, no real reason to train as hard as they did in the timeline we know
Ive had this argument with many people and said the same thing, but ive been disagreed with everytime. At least one person gets it
Been a big fan for awhile! Loving the content
4:42 Press F to pay respects to the truck driver
Really good points here
Going off the anime Future Gohan would have been stronger than Goku, vegeta, trunks and even piccolo merged with kami. Piccolo was even against 17 but Gohan had the upper hand and only lost because 17 and 18 teamed him
the anime, Gohan seems to have Rage boost, so it is believable to think these rage boost helped him considerably, however, there's also a possibility of the Androids still playing with Gohan and Gohan rage boost was surpassing their suppressed power
I imagine "put up a decent fight" may simply mean in comparison to how badly they'd just been thrashed. And, like Mike says, I'd just assume the 'present' androids chose to simply hit harder against Tien, Trunks and Piccolo than the future counterparts did, as to make them stop.
Seeing as how there's no indication that the present androids particularly enjoy beating up and torturing people significantly weaker than themselves (and didn't start a single fight outside of trying to get to Goku)
I'd say you sound like Kevin O'Connor from The Ringer.
I quickly realized how much of power Increase dedicated training gave the z warriors.
You’ve been putting out some great content recently. I’m really enjoying it!
Jon Arbuckle could have easly beaten the androids (13 to 21) if he wanted to, Jim Davis was just too scared of Toriyama when drawing the Android Saga.
You make a compelling argument and I'd like to agree, but I think you have to address that for whatever reason, the future and present timelines are simply very different inherently.. Gero never turned himself into an android or released 19 in the future. So theoretically, in the future he released the Androids earlier than intended, and perhaps this could have weakened them slightly? While in the present he kept them docile and may have been continually working on their power (as well as their obedience) and this could account for the power difference.
Oh damn I should have waited til the end of the video before posting lol. I'll leave this out of embarrassment.
Ugh I love dbz do much. When I was a kid I had some how got a Tapion toy, and I had absolutely no idea who he was, I believe he gave trunks his sword in a movie
lol the old video of why the android sun trunks timeline kept popping up yesterday now this😂💀
I've always thought the androids were the same power level. Trunks just never got to see the future androids at full strength so seeing the present ones not holding back made him think they were stronger. We can use Vegeta as a barometer for their strength because he reached SSJ in both timelines. I think he would have the same amount of power but lost a 1v1 in both timelines.
I remember the episodes I think it’s the one he kills them they both tell him we were only using half our power when we fought you last time but trunks still butchered them cause his power at that point was leagues higher then theirs
Trunks fights them on his own after the History of Trunks events. And held his own. And they never stated they were holding back in the final confrontation. No evidence they ever held back in their encounters with Trunks after Gohan’s death.
No evidence that they didn't hold back. In History of Trunks 17 got frustrated with Trunks for climbing out of the lake before they could leave (probably because he wanted to leave Trunks alive but not let him know that he did). Look at how they fought him. They were undeniably toying with him - finding him when he was hiding - but not killing him.
Also, when Trunks faces them the last time, 17 makes it clear that he'd rather not kill Trunks because they'd be "wasting weeks of fun". This makes it clear they've held back for more fun in future fights. He whispers it, he doesn't let Trunks hear this.
Trunks was pretty strong he killed main timeline Frieza wich was stronger and future android s were playing with him on like main timeline counterpart s so yes the future android s are not to down play them and to know Gohan lives cuz they let him is clear they are very strong I wish we can see the true power to know how really strong they we're
@@number3stunner118 1. No evidence vs. Statement from Trunks means the Statement wins.
2. In the manga, only 17 fights Gohan, but Trunks says "them", implying he fought both of them.
3. No he didn't. You're lying.
@@fuckthisstupidasshandleshit 1. Trunks isn't a reliable source - as evidenced by it never being clear that he was right about surpassing Vegeta. Even he doesn't know if Vegeta can go USSJ
2. What does that prove about anything? What is the connection to what you said to anything I did?
See how I'm numbering my points to coincide with your numbers so that you know what I'm referring to? My first post didn't have numbers - meaning just because you typed numbers doesn't make it clear what each of your paragraphs is referring to, genius.
3. Not even sure what you're referring to (see point 2 above) - but if you're referring to what I said 17 said, yes he did. The clip is easily searchable on TH-cam. Also, eat shit.
I never thought on it until mentiones.
You DO sound a bit like 17.
We KNOW due to several times it's mentioned, that they ARE weaker, but, more dangerous, like Kid Buu, because he has lost all morality, thus unrestrainted destruction. It's these same morals that stop Beerus just turning into an unfeeling destructive force.
The only reliable source of their power level comes from a kid who when facing Cell when into bulk mode because "more power", something even Vegeta knows to be foolish.
Trunks has his fathers arrogance, and thus it can easily be concluded that there are no differences in the power of the androids of current or future time lines.
It would be pretty stupid writing if Dr. Gero made them weaker in the past. Had Trunks not time travelled and split into the multiverse the androids he fights would just magically get weaker when the present time line unleashed the androids.
@@andrewgregg7180 Is there anything that contradicts it?
Imagine that Future Lord Beerus and Whis arrived on Earth and sees it in ruins then they notice Android 17 and 18 are hurting Future Trunks, then the androids confront them then they’re Destroyed By Future Lord Beerus
It’ll be No reason because there would be no saiyans alive except for Broly probably, who would be like 60 years old
@@ssjsal2159 what it was just a what if