Double Sided PCB CNC Milling
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ค. 2011
- Making a double sided circuit board at home can save you a bundle of money. Mikey describes how to use a inexpensive CNC to make a two sided circuit board. The process is easy to learn as it just requires a CNC, some tape and metal pins.
- แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
Hey I'm impressed with the relocation accuracy of those small pins in what looks like chipboard.
I gotta get me a CNC
Looks great, Mikey! Congrats on getting it all up and running. Can't wait to see what new water, temp, and cheese controlling boards you roll out in no time flat!
reinforcing the desire for a cnc homebrew nice going!!
Board came out great - nice job :) You're certainly right about the pricing on a small runoff from a third party service.
very cool. I live in Albuquerque and am just getting into pcb design and milling. great video
Dropping the bit is a genius idea. Thank you
Thanks for the tip of dropping the bit on the job tightening it and and then zeroing the axis instead of the old jog/paper thing.
I found your video very instructive. Nice job.
Nice solution to making dual PCB's at home, now I want to try it too :D
I'm about to get into the 'world' of cnc pcb milling. Great video here (even though I'm like 5 years late after the 2011 video was made). I'm assuming that the cnc software automatically takes the 'flipping' of the board (for milling the reverse side of the board in stage 2). That pin method for getting the board approximately in the right position for stage 2 is pretty good too.
Thankyou for that information it is great to hear from you and now the fans know how to setup there very own mill.cnc !
Thankyou once again
Very instructive video?
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Very instructive. The running commentary really enhances the value.
Ok, thanks for the information. I will try to see if that helps.
I just bought a new CNC machine for this and other purposes!, nice trick with the Z axis bit, (I have two Extech 330 multimeter like yours)
Half the time I was blowing at the screen trying to get the copper shavings off the board. Lol
soo true
yeah and it's not good when you're rolling a cigarette on the desk and then blow.... DOH!
That square through hole package in the middle was huge!
+Daniel Astbury Yeah, that is a sizable development breakout board that I used so that I could easily swap pre-programmed MCU's for firmware upgrades.
The Good Life Lab Ah I see, awesome!
Really nice.
A comment - the commercial machine we used at had a shoe that kept the board flattened as the cutter went over it. A lot of the boards had a slight warp in them.
What spindle speed are you using. The commercial machine we used had this little ultra-expensive Swiss-made motor that would go to 100,000 rpm. I am curious what kind of motor you are using.
What kind of sofrware do you use to control cnc machine?
Ps.Good job mate!!
Great Job, Mikey!!! Technology for the People, yeah! MicroInterprise based in home-based technology is what the future economy will be based in. I would love to print a board that controls two, 3/4 inch valves that uses two temperature sensor inputs and open/close-limit inputs that are adjustable each and can be inputed for each. That way the unit could be a flexible tool for biodigestor controls, algae cultivation and basic reflux distilation processes for many compounds and just water.
nice video, would like to see how you line up the second side, but also how do you overcome the variances in board depth across the pcb? i'm still having problems with missing track sections where the board is alightly thinner
Great video! Thank you.
Great video. Thanks!
Hi, I'm starting to make my own boards with my own CNC machine but I don't get quite the same results as you do. I'm using the 0.1mm carbing but is 10º. Also, I'm working way slower than you, like 6 to 10 mm / min. The drill is going 6000 rpm. Could you give me information about the speed of your CNC and drill?
Any other sugestion?
Thank you.
Great stuff learned a lot thanks.
Great video! Also, thanks for editing out the boring bits :-)
Great advices, thanks!
Great video, thanks. Question, how do you manage the through hole connections?
Clever Z axis tip. cant believe I haven't thought of that yet lol
I used to do it but be carful the tool can go up a little bit when you tight it
@@slowlive5939 Makes sense with the chucks. I have sherline collets that have horizontal set screws.
Also, one extremely important thing that nobody on the internet seems to tell us about is....... this double sided pcb milling technique (that features this board flipping method) will only work properly if the spindle is properly adjusted so that the spindle's rotating column is perpendicular to the cutting surface. Because you can imagine what happens when you pre-drill the pcb alignment holes for the case where the spindle column isn't perpendicular. The problem will be that the alignment holes won't line up properly when you flip the pcb over --- this is because the hole opening on one side of the board will be offset by a 'tad' (due to drilling at a slight angle) in relation to the opening on the other side. So, if the drill bit is on this particular exaggerated angle "\" then the top hole is obviously going to be at a different location relative to the bottom hole. And this is just along one axis. There are two axes (x and y). The issue will not only be holes locations being out when we flip the board. The other issue is not being able to insert the pins. That is, when one side of the board is used, then the pins would fit perfectly. Once the board is turned over, the pins won't fit .... due to the distorted geometry. So, this means proper CNC machine setting up will be necessary for this 2-sided pcb engraving method to work nicely.
Great video. Do you put the through-hole via pins in yourself? Also, where do you buy those via pins?
totally awesome thank you for sharing
F1 vs F10 is the feed-rate I tend to use.
Depending on board type I will run my unit at 12in/min or 300mm/min with a feed override of 120%.
I luv the reference points
Verry instructive video sir ... thanks!
Great stuff !! thanks a lot for this inspiring video.
How did you manage to do the vias ? Using some kind of trough-hole plating technique ?
thank you
resistor legs work great as the "wire" to connect both sides.
hey. little off topic question. what are you using on your CNC. what kind of motor for cutting and drilling. it's quiet and I need something like that.
ty.
Oh, how times have changed! Can get 6 of those for $5 or less these days :D
Nice video. Would you mind letting me see what you did with the transform, rectifier, etc? Did you actually use these or did you just use another power supply? Thank you.
good job! I think you could make a location pattern that has only one axis of symmetry (3 holes or a trapeze) to avoid any confusion when you flip the board.
very good and clean!
Good video there mate. How much dept did you specify for the last machine operation (engraving if i am not wrong)
I use tacks in 4 corners and then flip the board and put the tacks back. The software handles the top/bottom and mirror issues so I don't need to think about it.
Nice job. What program did you use to design the PCB? Is it ready to mill directly from this program or do you need a lot of post processing before bringing it into EMC2?
nice video for PCB CNC
Awesome video man, thanks!
At the sound the bit makes, it's more around 7200 RPM...
Believe me, 30 0000 RPM would make a much high-pitched noise !!!
But, this is only a detail... The finished board is nice, that's the most important thing !
...And i am happy to see the results; i've just bought the same CNC that you use and am waiting for it to be shipped !
Board profiling methods are often discussed - where an electrical probe is used to probe the vertical height profile of the board in many different locations around the board. This profiling method wasn't used here in this clip. Instead, holes were drilled for the initial step, which would then prevent profiling techniques from being used. Just wondering if there are techniques for getting double-sided boards (using CNC) that does profiling on both sides.
That was awesome
Everything came through Zen Tool Works (chuck included). I etch at different feed rates between F1 and F10 depending on how precise I need it to be.
When you flipped the board over (@ about 6'50"), there was a lot of dust and shavings on the top surface. Did you clean that off before you continued? It could be the reason for that incomplete corner area. I assume you leveled your machine bed before.
I used gEDA / PCB to design the circuit and generate the gcode. It's a built-in export option. I made the PCB on a Zen Tool Works CNC 7x7.
Yes, I went through quite a few bits at first. However, as I became more adept at milling they didn't need as much replacement.
Hi,
Thanks for sharing the video, just curious what software you used for the DIY CNC?
Works great for me doing plexiglass and copper. Two years no maintenance.
Hi Mikey, i loved the vid... i recently downloaded a live CD distro of Ubuntu with EMC2 , do you use a linux cad/cam for your boards or a specific piece of software ? my interest is in engraving in small scale and your work really got me interested.. Thanks for the vid and look forward to more.
vias are just legs from components I clipped and saved while soldering to other projects.
Great video Thanks!
P.S- where do you buy your board?
Very cleaver way to z it without a touch plate.
You can also use the copper of your pcb as a touch plate, and call G38.2 or G38.3 manually in linuxcnc.
Another cheap and easy way is to jog manually onto a piece of thin paper sheet while moving it. When the sheet gets caught, you're on zero. Just remember to crank down the speed for the last millimeter or two :D
@@InnerBushman no you are actually the thickness of the sheetpaper above the surface of the PCB. And believe me, 0.1mm does a Lot
@@ipadize you're right. 0.1mm is a lot. For super precise things I measure the paper thickness and subtract it for better zero reference. I use the probe circuit for zeroing on my PCBs tho. Paper is great if you don't have probe input.
Mikey, good video. Where did you get the spindle
One thing to note about lowering the chuck onto the drill bit and then tightening it is to keep the drill bit tip against the PCB as you tighten else the tightening process can cause the drill bit tip to lift off the PCB slightly and when we're talking fractions of a millimeter cutting depth, it matters. I prefer locking the bit into the chuck and then lowering the tip down to the PCB in small increments until it's touching the copper.
Another thing to note is how far into the chuck you insert your V-Bit cutter. Insert it too far or not far enough and you can end up with rough cuts due to resonance which is also related to the RPM you mill at. The same applies to cutting too deep or too shallow. A friend of mine was continually getting rough cut results when milling PCB and when I visited to lend a hand I found he had put the cutter into the chuck right up to the end of the shank. It happened that the cutter was resonating in such a way that it was skipping along the walls of the cut leaving jagged edges. Pulling the cutter out of the chuck by a few MM cured it and he had lovely clean cuts.
Wow! nice trick to zero Z axis. Love it.
Do you know where to get the adapter between your drill bit mount and spindle motor. Currently I'm using ER11, but want change to the type like yours. Thanks a lot, and video is great.
Hi, great work, and thanks for describing it so well. What is the nature of your CNC machine? Are the constructions details / files / description available somewhere? If yes - where please?
See description. It's from ZenCart
Great job! how "spindle" you use?
what's the feedrate are you using during etching? Your chuck looks very good where did you buy it?
which brand of cnc is this ?
Thanks for the info.
It's a Zen Tool Works. The mill is pretty loud when cutting copper.
how deep is the milling? and what is the spindle speed (rpm), because i'm surprised how beautiful the tracks are and you didn't break the tip of the bit :) i spin the same bit up to 22.000 rpm so i can have the feedrate up to 500mm/min
Very impressive for 2011. ....and still impressive in 2021
CDO is kicking in!!! the drill bits not going in fully is killing me right now :(
Nice job man, pretty clean.. What do you do for connecting the visa from both sides of the PCB?. I want to start printing home made PCBs but I do not known how to connect both sides.
Any advice on this?
Thanks Jan, I did my research based on copper wires and riveting tools, I found this good post to make it at home: hackaday.com/2015/02/25/diy-through-hole-plating-like-a-boss/, hope so it could be useful to other people.
I run at different speeds depending on the depth of the cut. If it is a shallow cut I'll run as fast as I can make the mill go (1 mil depth). If it is a deep cut I'll run slow. I suggest making sure your board is well clamped and trying shallow 1 mil depth passes and doing up to 10 of them. This should produce a quality board and you can automate this process.
Hi Mikey, thank you for this video. I've one question, how can you sold thru hole components in a 2 layer board like the one you made if you have tracks from bottom to top or viceversa? I have problem with these because the drilled holes doesn't connect the traces like a fabricated PCB and if you try to fill the gap soldering, the pond doesn't cross the surface.
Robert Casanova Hi Robert - I'm doing double sided PCBs when doing prototypes for clients. And there are 2 ways of doing it : 1. If the components can be soldered on both sides do so ;-) 2. Insert a piece of thin wire and solder.
Hi hbsorensen thankyou for your answer. With Choice 2 you mean adding a thin pond wire in the hole before make the join? Thx
Yup
Use a component leg through a via to create the bridge.
Robert Casanova 5
What CNC is this? If you could start over (and choosing a CNC for this), which would you recommend?
This is a Zen-Cart 7"x7" which costs about $300 for a the bare kit and $700 with all the options and shipping. It includes the 30,000 RPM spindle. Each blank is PCB costs about $6 for a double sided 6" x 6".
hello, its awesome, which machine you use for this work_??
nice video thanks. what I'm still missing is how you re-centred the bit for the rear side of the board. could you explain please?
It's pretty easy to re-align the flipped board. I flip the board and load the reverse side gcode file and let the drill run with a +20 mil z-axis so I can see how close I am in alignment without actually cutting anything. It's actually a pretty easy thing to line up by sight versus using known drill locations which become questionable once the board is flipped.
Hi Mikey! I'm a student from Mexico, these days I'm graduating from high school and I have to make a proyect about electronics, I have a lot of knowledge about programming and Electronics but the only question I have is Did you make the software? So much thanks!!
perfect idea but can you tell me what software you used for send G-code? and what the Control board and power board? please
good job!!!
To Mikey Sklar...
Do the carving bits have to be replaced often ? I just want to know if i have to oreder several of them...
Thank you !
Nice job . Can the CNC do QFN foot print? Thx for sharing this
Wow the spindle motor on that mill is really quiet. is it water cooled?
This video is very useful, but i have a question about the 2nd layer, because you put the video when the machine is working and i can't saw how do you locate the origin, do you use the same origin?? from the other layer
and other question, you drill the holes at the first time, why the holes first and no the engraving first ??
on one side the holes look pretty off the pad centers. have you assembled this circuit? did you have any trouble?
you may have answered this previously, but what is your material cost on the 6 x 6 blank? I am looking for a way to make some simple boards. I have a mill and tooling, the plans are open source, just seeing if i can make my project cheaper than buying all the components.
Very nice!
Still use the same setup today. Just milled some more PCBs this week. It is time consuming, but so satisfying.
That looks like a 12mm chuck shaft. Where did you buy you chuck and shaft?
Hola muy buen video, gracias por compartirlo, seria tan amable de decirme que Software está usando para controlar la cnc? Y tiene autonivelado? Gracias espero su respuesta
what kind of cnc mill are you using? Who makes it? Website link?
Hi... great video. What do you think about this CNC machine? I intend to buy one, but it looks too fragile!!
Thanks.
The drill spins at 30,000 RPM and runs at 30v drawing about 3A.
Wonderful
I've just bought one on eBaY... and am waiting for it to be deliuvered !!!!
what is the cnc mill you're using? It sounds pretty quiet, I was looking into getting one for my apartment.
What speed are you cutting at? I have a similar cnc but cant get good results however i do. Tried 30,50,80mm/min but get ragged edges if the traces. If i go above 100mm/min the bit snaps quickly (tried -0.07 to -0.09mm cut depth), no luck.
So how did you align it so both sides of the board match, and wont one sidde be a mirror of the other side?
which CAM software are you using for CNC???
Awesome thank you very much