When I was younger, I used to chose Harrowmont, but at some point I started to think Bhelen is better for Orzammar's future. He's not good person and he did awful things, but is less restrictive and don't care about class structure. I like how he's nice to Warden's dwarf sister and even marry her. Harrowmont is too still and don't see problems in their society...
Same here, thirteen years ago my young mind wasn't quite mature enough to grasp some of the concepts of Orzammar, but then later it dawned on me. Harrowmont's precious status quo is effectively a death sentence. The dwarves are in decline and have been for a long time, Orzammar is shrinking rapidly as the Darkspawn claim Thaig upon Thaig, the Warrior Caste is diminishing and without the Anvil of the Void to churn out Golems they have no way to halt the enemy or reclaim the lost territory. "Harrowmonts successor has a good chance of implementing the reforms more smoothly than Bhelen." Says Kingdom but here's the thing... there's no guarantee that they will. Harrowmont isn't likely to nominate a successor that doesn't share his stance on traditionalism, and even disregarding that... were he to be elected he could very well be the last king Orzammar is like to have. Why? Because dwarves are extremely hardy people and while they don't have the nigh infinite longevity of the ancient elves they in most media typically live for centuries. Harrowmont may be old, but he's not decrepit, and at the rate they're going Orzammar could be overrun by darkspawn in his lifetime. Speaking of the Anvil though, Harrowmont can't defend Orzammar without it because he's so adamant about traditions. Bhelen *can* because one of the first things he does as King is to open the city to surface trade and make it so Casteless can join the army, giving them some much needed reinforcements, less mouths to feed (because some casteless may distinguish themselves, but many more are likely to die) and most importantly *a supply line for the coming famine.* But under Harrowmont, the borders close meaning no supply lines, no surface reinforcements and the only way for the casteless to join the army is by going under the hammer and being turned into Golems, because Golems aren't casteless anymore... they're weapons, *things.*
That's often me too. But usually I just choose based on what origin I've chosen to roleplay as. Normally if I play a Human Noble, they pick Bhelen due to their own past traumas regarding How and his attempts to usurp the Cousland title. (One of my current ones has an exception when she does some investigating and realizes that Bhelen's shady dealings puts him closer to Howe than her). The Dwarf Commoner also chooses Bhelen because their sister is dating him and they don't want to hurt her feelings. With my Dwarf Noble it varies depending on whether they've completed the Elf Quest first and learned about how wrong revenge is. Or if they're a man and had a kid. The Harrowmont path is usually chosen by ones from a non-dwarf commoner origin that doesn't trust royalty to begin with.
@@kieranmahon4382 I only chose Bhelen as a commoner dwarf because apart from family reasons, he/she is someone who easily sympathizes with Bhelen's political path. Personally, I still prefer Harrowmont because in the end, even though he is a conservative, the progressive change of Orzammar society will happen sooner or later and morality and kindness are the most important things. .
I vote Bhelen. You think the dwarves are gonna care how Bhelen rules when they're starving because of trade restrictions and being massacred by darkspawn because they don't recruit the casteless in the military? It's irrelevant if there are malcontents to his rule, it's paramount Bhelen's rule benefit Orzammar's survival. Even my dwarf noble would be fool to side against Bhelen over petty vengeance. Who's gonna care who sits on the throne or who slighted who when the darkpawn overrun Orzammar? Orzammar society is dystopian, but it's monopoly on lyrium trade gives it global influence which benefits all dwarves and keeps the Circles and Templar institutions running. Dwarves can't afford to echew practicallity over their pride.
THIS and THIS exactly. Even roleplaying as the Aeducan Warden I still support Bhelen because in the end I know that he is doing what is necessary to move Dwarven society out of a 1000 year long decline. Executing Harrowmont is not only a tyrannical action, it is necessary to destroy the internal opposition of the conservative houses so that broad reforms can take place to make Dwarven society active again. It is shown that the Caste system lead to the decline of most Dwarven holds because precious manpower and ingenuity is wasted on heritage and false honour.
Funny enough my first ever playthrough of origins was a dwarf Nobel and there were two main reasons I didn't side Bhelen 1. Harrowmont was the chosen successor for my character's father so it made sense for my character to side with him 2. Realistically I don't think anyone would work with the brother that tricked you into killing your older brother and got your father into basically executing you by the darkspawn, so again made sense for my character to side with Harrowmont For real life reasons I believe that prick and was really pissed off that he backstabbed me so I was looking at anyway to get back at him, and again he's a damn prick
When I played a Dwarf Noble, I wasn't even mad that he framed me. I was actually pretty impressed. He showed a cut throat nature and the subtly it takes to be king. I also really agreed with his ideas of uplifting the castless. He was a bit of a dick, but hey -he has what it takes to rule. Harrowmont is far too mired in tradition. That being said, it is an RPG -so I felt that it would have been weird to side with Bhelen after he almost killed me.
My main canon is a Dwarf noble and I can't justify Bhelen at least in that worldstate. I also kinda like the idea that my Warden in getting justice kind of dooms his home, makes for a more interesting story.
Soo... I DM'd a tabletop RPG where I sent the group through the events of Origins. One of them chose the Dwarf Noble and was betrayed. [NONE of them had played the video game]. The entire group WOULD NOT have Belen as King but nor would they accept Harrowmont who they saw as weak. In the campaign, it was Belen's sibling who became King [Another player basically played Alister and also became king, he the King of Feralden]. I've never seen a group SOO against an NPC as they were against Belen. [In the campaign, Carriden supported the brother as King when he crafted the crown, since dialogue options weren't as limited as the game]. It was fun to see them so riled up and into it.
I see you conveniently left out how Harrowmont made contractual promises to give two different parties the same land! Knowing nothing about the either man before arriving in Orzammar, that tipped the scales in Bhelan's favour.
You have option to take those documents to Sheparate and he immediately validates the documents as fakes. The dates are altered in order to frame Harrowmont. Bhelen plays very dirty to win the throne. Dealings with Carta and such in order to gain upper hand. Bhelen goes after Jarvia because he doesn't want lose ends.
Well, my Warden played Neutral, but she would pick Behlen when it came to the final choice. With him, Orzammar was likely to take a more active role in fighting the Blight rather than the defensive hold with only ever attacking when a noble house wanted to raid for artifacts. He also seemed to be able and willing to bring the Nobles in line instead of putting their position of power over the fate of the whole kingdom.
My first origins play through and main canon is also a female dwarf noble and I remember constantly telling Bhelen how our older brother would never do anything wrong he loves us and my character being shocked and upset to find out her brother framed her for the murder and used her own party members to help frame her. I fell in love with the dwarves lore, shape rates and wall of memories and all that stuff entails as I learned more about dragon age lore, and when it came time for me to return as an exile that no one tolerated or respected much less acknowledged, I was outraged and yes I let my emotions influence my decision, but it was also my fathers dying wish so I knew I had to honor that as well. On my next play through I helped Bhelen’s sub-plot quests and learned more about his ideals as a non-dwarf character and while some of them were alright, also finding out with that save file transferred to DA2 that he was hunting down and killing all of harrowmonts house as well, that rubbed me wrong too, it wasn’t enough to kill Lord Harrowmont, but to kill off his entire house when in the long run they really had no entitlement to the throne and pursuing them all the way to Kirkwall (plot contrived coincidence when there’s an entire world they could have gone but oh well) so it made me want to pick Lord Harrowmont in future plays just because he seemed more level headed and willing to be reasonable and listen to advisors not do things his way with an iron fist and bloody axe. Anyways love dwarven lore and your videos as always and as much as I love dwarves this one always seems personal to me thanks to my first character, so I also love and hate this decision just like many in the DA series!
I think the game showed clearly that the worst enemy of the Dwarves are themselves and bloodshed is unavoidable. They were like Caesar and Brutus: the first one was ruthless, succesful and convinced people that reforms are necessary, while second one was an idealist who fought for an ideal which no longer existed and people didn't really want that, but honor and tradition were paramount to him.
Belen is a reformist and a ruthless tyrant. Harrowmont is a traditionalist and a compassionate dwarf. …in the Inquisition Trespasser DLC, it ultimately doesn’t matter who you pick as it ends up the same.
i go with Bhelen he gets things done and helps the castless and takes back some Thaigs the other guy has little power as king gets stuck in arguments with the Deshers
I ran with a corrupt Dwarf Noble who would do just about anything to get the job done. He even killed his own brother (which was something I didn’t even know you could do), sure it was under Bhelen’s manipulation, but I imagined my Warden was playing with the idea before hand. After the Temple of Sacred Ashes where he made peace with the manifestation of his dead brother, he began to change for the better. Doing good for the sake of doing good. When he finally returned to Orzammar he had every intention of bringing down Bhelen for the good of all. But after hearing how he would bring legitimate change to the cast system, he had to swallow his pride and assist his brother for the good of all. It wasn’t an easy decision for me personally, but I felt as though my Warden would have choose his brother if it meant bringing about change in a corrupt system.
I have played as a dwarf noble. I don't like how Bhelen frames me but he is still family. I agree with him about his views and my Character never wanted to inherit their fathers throne. In fact had my traitorous brother asked I would have given the throne to him and even helped. So I'm fine with Bhelen ruling, even if I despise him for framing me to get it.
I like how people go "He'll make the lives of Dwarves better" even when he goes mad with power, hunts down and murders Harrowmonts entire house, and loses his shit with the Anvil of the Void, to the point where even Branka realizes hes insane.
I think if he was any less ruthless he couldn’t change anything because of how backwards dwarves are. At the end of the day you are choosing between two bad options. It’s not like Harrowmont is nice. He literally forces Branka to hunt surface dwellers to turn them into golems via his inaction. If it’s like that you might as well vote for a change.
My Warden (an elven mage) starts working WITH Bhelen as she meets with Vartag just outside the Assembly, she doesn't like Bhelen and she only cares about getting her troops, but Bhelen asks favor after favor to the point that my Warden's patience is finished, so she gives the crown to Harrowmont just to spite on him at the very end. She doesn't care about dwarven politics, so she couldn't care less about Harrowmont being a good king or not, as long as she gets her troops to fight the Blight. Also, in the end there is no real difference between any of them, just look in Inquisition.
For the longest time I chose harrowmont as a dwarf noble for obvious reasons. However when thinking about it I realised that changing a society like orzammar will never come without consequence. Its too rooted in some bad ideas and too many people profit from the status quo. So I began to side with Bhelen and from from I have seen afterwards he makes the lives of people in orzammar better and keeps stability. I think having a living paragon who is more level headed like my warden would be able to temper his cruelty and in time maybe take power. But that's just my headcannon.
With Harrowmont I feel like Orzammar is screwed. They need a paradigm shift, and Belen is the one, who can make it. Yeh, it sucks he is an asshole and manipulates people, but in almost all of my playthroughs I ended up supporting him. Thedas needs a strong Orzammar to withstand the Drak Spawn and the Dread Wolf.
I mean, you only mention it in the end... but for my dwarf commoner, it really wasn't a decision. That ON TOP of finally lifting the casteless up, they would have sacrificed a lot more to do it.
I always like to roleplay my characters, so whenever I play a commoner I choose Bhelen, due to the fact that my character grew up castless and understands how bad things really are for them. Also, they've proven that a castless can be a better warrior then one with a cast, and preventing them from fighting in the military will only further weaken, and rob them of great talents in their very long fight against the Darkspawn. If I play a Dwarf then I always choose Harrowmont, because the betrayl Bhelen did can't be justified and you were there to see and know what happened first hand, instead of being a commoner who only heard about it, and from a commoner's perspective either side could be lying for their own gain. As for an Elf or Human, I always choose Harrowmont, being the lesser of two evils, but longterm he's still a bad decision, but given his age he wouldn't be King as long as Bhelen so hopefully his replacement could undo whatever damage and restrictions he causes. But that's just me.
I always go with Bhelen. When I was younger, I went with Harrowmont because he seemed like a nicer guy. But as I grew older, I started to question that. How good of a person is someone if they fully allow and support a system of oppression and abuse while fully relying on their labor? The entire Casteless system is extreme exploitation filled with people that are the backbone of Orz. Desperation and lack of options turns it into a funnel for both The Carta and The Legion of the Dead which are the back bones of the city. They get used and abused. All it takes is to upset the wrong noble to find yourself in this spot. If Harrowmonts kindness only really gets applied to those of a certain rank or use how kind is he? The way I understand dwarven politics, Bhelen’s actions were awful but they were par for the course for dwarven politicking. We can see this with Harrowmont, who deploys similar methods of slander and the like if you do not select him. Propaganda against the wardens during a blight stands out, which is incredibly stupid given the situation. The dwarves may not care about what goes on in the surface, but their insular nature is part of why their society is on the decline. Even if Harrowmont is to be considered honorable, he is so in the Ned Stark way- great guy but his honor and inability to see the big picture ultimately leads to his demise and dooms the Starks for a long time. Him as a leader will probably doom the dwarves down the line as they trend more and more towards isolationist tendencies.
I believe that as you get older you will wonder again if Orzammar need to trade its morality, honor and leadership into infighting in order to make the country strong? Orzammar's caste system is terrible but it is bound to change sooner or later. Bhelen is a radical king, but his tricks will easily incite hatred, sparking new power struggles. Harrowmont was a conservative, but that doesn't mean his heirs weren't radical in their thinking, while still maintaining morals and honor. I am not advocating for any side but I want to say that no matter who is chosen as the king of Orzammar, the consequences of that are always twofold and the fate of that country is not in the hands of one person but the whole nation. Remember that whoever is the king of Orzammar, when you successfully help Dagna join the Circle of Magi or bring in the name of the Casteless dwarves participating in the defense of Kal-Hirol is what shows the social change in the way. A more progressive, humane way in Orzammar is needed and it is happening.
@@Kriegman2knot without Bhelen. Sure, Harromount heirs could be less like Harromount himself, but how likely is that really? Not enough that way more people should suffer way more years. Really, a theme of Dragon Age is stability v progression. And you choose one or the other in Orzammar.
Depends on if I am playing a dwarf, if not Harrowmont. As you said he is an honorable man. If I am playing a dwarf, Bhelen every time. If I am playing commoner, for my sister if nothing else. If I am playing a noble, there is no way I am letting the throne pass from my house. Plus, no matter how dirty Bhelen is, he is playing dwarven politics as they are. Dwarven politics are far from honorable. They just want to look it.
The only playthrough that I sided with Bhelen was my Dwarf Commoner since through the mind of my warden he knows what Casteless go through on a regular basis. My Dwarf Noble sided with Harrowmont purely on the grounds of there was no way I was going to let Bhelen soil that Throne after murdering Trian and framing his other brother for it.
I went Harrowmont for the longest time because I can't _stand_ Bhelen. That said, in my ideal world state, I grudgingly put in Bhelen to get movement in dwarven society to keep the dwarves relevant and alive going forward. Plus, dwarves will run over a weak King. Though I think you're probably right about looking to whoever is King _after._ That said, I still like the Warden, if they're a Noble Dwarf, just taking the throne and then training a successor; feels like a good end-run around either of them 😂
@@channel45853 Nope, that's a fanfic. Even if being a Grey Warden didn't mean any and all titles and inheritance is forfeit, (Which they are, Alistair being a very rare exception because he's the *only* living successor of the Theirin bloodline, and if he's crowned he basically has to quit the order.) the dwarven throne cannot be claimed without an election from the assembly, and that's usually *after* nomination by the ruling monarch, which Orzammar doesn't have in 9:30 Dragon. I suppose the Arling of Amaranthine does kind of throw a wrench in the notion of Grey Wardens holding no titles and no land... though it was given to the order itself, not the PC of Origins/Awakening.
I agree. It's better to have a good person in office even if he has bad policies - governing is more than just policies, it's about decision making and a leader needs a strong moral compass to guide them in making those decisions. For every "reform" Bhelen makes with the surface dwarves, the casteless, etc. how many corrupt and vicious deeds is he committing that we don't know about?
Most would choose lion, yes,for short term reasons and taking everything personal. but better choice be snake. cause harrowmont already let him infiltrate his men, he let him do what he did when his the old king was in charge. or he was unable to counter it, which is worse. it's actually questionable how was harrowmont able to keep half the assembly in his favour,no matter who you side with during Orzammar walkthrough
I like the idea of supporting Bhelen, even as a dwarf Noble. The opening dialogue of the dwarf noble cinematic makes it clear that political intrigue, assassinations, and secret alliances are part and parcel to dwarven politics. Someone who grew up in that world would probably respect Bhelen’s ability to play the game. Also, while Harrowmont is the much more honorable person he is simply not as skillful as Bhelen, and given the crises of both the Blight on the surface and in Dwarven society as a whole a strong leader is needed. Besides, at the end of the game a dwarf Warden becomes a paragon and given how much pull they have I figure a paragon could simply have Bhelen killed whenever he’s outlived his usefulness and replace him with a king of their choosing.
I personally think Bhelen, but for roleplaying purposes I pretty much always choose Bhelen if I'm a dwarf (either origin) or elf commoner. Dalish and Circle mage could go either way, and Human Noble usually picks Harrowmont.
Ultimately I think Bhelen is the better choice. Being "nice" and being "good" are not the same thing, and I think that's the mistake that Harrowmont and players who support him make. It is pretty clear that most, if not all, nobility in Orzammar and probably Fereldan is corrupt. And in Orzammar it could not be more clear with an actual caste system that designates people as "mistakes who should not have been born and, according to the records, never were" from birth. That shit is fucked, that system needs to go. It really does not matter who needs to die or what needs to burn to accomplish it. Allowing a vile status quo to go unchallenged and change slowly over time is not kind, good, or noble. It's complicit. People always suffer. They are suffering right now, the only difference is that the people in power and not suffering -- although they too are actually suffering. They are happy to let the poor people and the castless suffer all of the failings of their society. The actual noble, correct thing to do is to redistribute that suffering more equally with intention, that intention being the ultimate lessening of suffering from everyone. Not just some people. Also, the line between a king and a tyrant is pretty thin in this case. And a tyrant isn't necessarily a bad thing, because that assumes that the system that propped up the tyrant is necessarily good. Which as I just explained, is certainly not the case. Ideally the Dwarves would have a hero king like Alistair, but in this case the hero tyrant is the better option than the complicit king. I do wish the game provided more information, especially for non-dwarf Wardens, but maybe that is the point. The Warden probably would not get much info to go off of, and yeah ultimately this choice is one made from a meta player perspective but it's one of those things that is really hard to ignore once you realize. I sort of wish that there was an option to side with and put Jarvia on the throne, honestly. I wonder how that might have looked, to flesh out the perspective of the casteless criminals who were literally forced into that life by the system to survive. She would probably be super radical and super evil up front, but would almost certainly dissolve the caste system as soon as possible.
if i would have played as a dwarf i would probably picked Harrowmont but i played as a human noble warden and i picked Bhelen yes he is ruthless but overall he still wants the best for Orzammar and he has a right at the throne by blood
It's kind of disappointing that Bhelen is shown to be such a superior choice to Harrowmont in Inquisition... that being said I approach my choices from an RPG perspective and always go Harrowmont for any surfacer who doesnt have personal insight into Orzammer. As Brosca choosing Bhelen is obvious however, my sister could be queen and my people get more rights, I have no reason to respect traditions that made me suffer. As Aeducan I like to play a ruthless family loyalist who can see the skill in Bhelen's actions against me and I want the throne to stay with the Aeducan line.
I side with Bhelen the reason is that the castless is longer stuck and that Ozammar does relaim som thaigs that has been lost. I think Bhelen is needed to shake up the Dwarven soceity so they understand what is needed to reclaim their cities and roads. Many Drawfs cast and castless leave for the surface because the leaders in Ozammar is stuck in poloitical infifting instead of an strong Champaning against the Darkspawn.
It's a tough decision indeed. The way I see it, harrowmont is the way to go. Darkspawn are the main issue, and that problem is every race's problem but the dwarves seem to accept that burden alone. Outsiders will notice harrowmont's actions to try to keep the peace and will more likely help rather then see bhelen's actions and judge them as they get what they deserve and not help. That's just me if the dwarves fail its not because of their ruling style but because of lack of help from outsiders with the darkspawn. The next king will do better following the example of harrowmont
I played as the dwarf casteless origin and I back Bhelen everytime. Not cause I like him, but because the warden's sister's life has become so tied to his success. Rica's place in society, if Bhelen is crowned with a casteless warden changes from casteless to queen. Not to mention she has a son with him. Could not betray my girl like that
For me, it 100% depends on my warden. My favorite to play are city elf and castless dwarf and they both go with Bhelen, but pretty much anything else and I choose Harromont
Well I think if you are playing male noble dwarf and you sleep with Mardy or what was that noble hunter's name from the origin, your son will probably arise as a king when he comes that age.
It’s a hard choice. Harrowmount is an honourable dwarf who is loyal and compassionate, but too much of a traditionalist to undertake the reforms necessary to secure the future of Orzammar. He turns out to be a well intentioned but weak King, easily controlled by the Noble Assembly. Bhelen, meanwhile is utterly ruthless when pursuing his goals. He’s a radical reformer who sees Dwarf society as being fundamentally broken and sets out to change it. He arguably has good intentions- he wants to uplift the Casteless and give them a place in society and better relations with the surface in order to fight back the Darkspawn and reclaim lost lands. But to achieve his goals, he arranges the murder of one brother, the exile of another and eventually rules a dictator, albeit one beloved by his supporters. It’s a case where if you pick the ‘Good’ guy, it’s arguably the bad choice as nothing changes, but if you pick the ‘bad’ guy, the Dwarves have more of a chance going forwards, even if it’s under dictatorial rule.
I see Behlen kinda like Ceasar. Ceasar was a very corrupt tyrant, but when he got into power he actually did alot of good reforms - reforms that were needed for ordinary people & for the system as a whole. My 1st playthrough I choose Harromont - but with hindsight I always choose Behlen.
From a Dwarf Noble point of view, Bhelen could not become king in the end without his older brother/sister assistance. Also he'll still be another king forgotable against you a paragon and legend.
This might be a hot take but if this is how Orzammar is, I feel like life on the surface as a dwarf is better. Yeah you probably won’t be in your homeland, and yeah you will not be able to see your people again, but I don’t think I could handle the castes getting stricter and trade with the surface being even more restricted to begin with if under Harrowmont’s rule. They are already struggling as is. But to know that Bhelen would be willing to kill his brother (and possibly his father) and frame his only other sibling for it, what makes you think he won’t do terrible things to other innocent people for his own goals? Disguised by the fact that he wants things better for the dwarves? He killed Harrowmont and his house for no reason. . With Orzamarr being in a shape like this, it is better to be on the surface. At least you can be yourself, without a caste dictating your life. At least there is more food and opportunities. It’s not with your people, but it is better than living in a deranged society.
WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! Hold up! Wait a minute! Somethin' ain't right. We need to talk about these female dwarves who have facial hair in this video! But seriously though, this choice is easy, and it all comes down to what kind of Warden you're running. My male dual weapon warrior Cousland checked the deed agreement with the Shaper to discover Vartag altered them. So he only showed them to Lady Dace so he could get into the Deep Roads early. Then he helped Harrowmont in the Proving, while also not declaring victory in his name. After meeting with Harrowmont and seeing that he was an honorable man, he still wanted to meet with Bhelen and see what he was all about. He used his meeting with Harrowmont to trick Vartag into thinking he infiltrated Harrowmont's inner circle. He told Vartag that Harrowmont wanted him to take down Jarvia, and got the false evidence. He took down Jarvia and planted the false evidence since he knew that could never lead back to him. So he played it off to Harrowmont as if he didn't know, and that gave my Warden access to Bhelen. After finding out what Bhelen was like by talking to him (Bhelen openly advocates murdering Branka if she doesn't endorse him), he made his choice to support Harrowmont. He makes sure to mention that Caradin trusted him to make the decision himself, and he chose Harrowmont. Not only is Bhelen not worthy, but he's a short-sighted, hot-tempered tyrant. All he had to do was bend the knee and he could have simply waited for Harrowmont to die of old age, or helped him along later on down the line. But he didn't. He threw a fit right there and tried to outright assassinate his king. So he got put down, and I think Oghren was the one to kill him in my playthrough. Ultimately, the choice of king never should have come down to my Cousland anyway, so he saw Harrowmont as the choice that carried the least amount of interference from the surface. That and Bhelen was evil, while Harrowmont was honorable. Everything that might take place after that is meta. So I don't regard it. Conversely, my Amell pyro bloodmage took a similar approach in playing both sides, but ultimately chose Bhelen in hopes of future profit for himself, and he didn't care about honor or the lives of the dwarves. He also sided with Branka to get more golems, losing Shale in the process. So this really just comes down to your own Warden's moral alignment.
When I was younger I choose Harrowmont because he was a good man. But now that I'm older and read up on the consequences of both choices.... I have to choose Bhelen. He opens up for more trading, allows more people to take up arms against the darkspawn and with the greater numbers and support from the humans is able to take back thaigs. While Harrowmont all but cuts off Orzammar from the rest of the world, almost dooming the dwarves. Its tough, but the good for the whole of Orzammar and the dwarves outweigh the good or bad between the two.
I once heard a line in a movie that goes like this, "Sometimes, we do the wrong things for the right reasons." And I think that this is the case here. Bhelen is best for Orzammar.
I get what your're saying, but I feel dirty with sing Harrowmont. On the long term he's ideas are past their time and Orzammar becomes isolated from the surface and the castless and won't do anything about the darkspawn. Bhelen IS a tyrant but his actions DO imporve the life the city. They start to push back the darkspawn, the castless gain rights wich makes a great imporvement in their life, and their relationship with the surfice also improves. Harrowmont and his supporters can claim they are honorable and honest, but in reality all they can show is that they can stand proudly next to the bodies Most of the time I play this game I play as a Princess Darf who sides with her own house and regains her status and honor.
I usually side with bhelen for two reasons one he seems to be the more progressive ruler with increasing trade with the surface and allowing the castles into the military the second I always played the dwarf commoner origin where he gives the wardens sister a better life
Harrowmont is the one we all voted for in the start because Bhelen is an asshole who - as we find out - caused the deaths of his siblings to gain power. Bhelen is the one we vote for second time around because Harrowmont continues down the path that doesn't work, while Bhelen is a reformer. Also, considering the options you have when playing Dwarf noble, it is just as likely that Bhelen was the _least_ dickish child of the king.
Yeah, Behlen was dirty, but so was Enderin, who also killed his brother. Thats how Dwarven politics work. Backstabbing, betrayal, and deception. It's expected. Behlen was simply a master at it. And I believe at the end of the day the ends justify the means. If it mean a better life for all those castless, then let the halls of Orzammar run with the blood of the honorable.
Orzammar needs Bhelen, whether they like it or not. The ghosts of those he discards won't matter, because in the end the people of Orzammar would likely prefer to live under a tyrant, then die next to an 'honorable' king. Honor and tradition won't save lives or feed hungry mouths. Progress will.
The first time I ever played a Dwarf Noble I sided with Harrowmont because I wanted Behlen dead. I was wrought with vengeance. All other playthroughs I chose to work with Behlen, because even though he's a dick and very much a tyrant ruler, his progressive politics are better for Orzammar in general.
There both good and bad choices harammot is a kind and honorable man but his stuck in the pass and won’t change witch it’s not good for people that needs resources like food and water and seance they have darkspawn literally near them they need help from the surface to keep the darkspawn back while bhalin is a possible tyrant but his ideas is noble and it can keep there city stable but seance he betrayed his brothers and father to further his goals of power but i will give him two good things he wants to help his people and keep resources at least stable for awhile
I'm really late to the party but I just have to say, It's kinda always bugged me how so many folks in the DA community apply modern standards to human (or dwarf) rights violations. I realize that in the real world, the cast system is a bad thing, but when it comes to my medieval based dark fantasy, I quite enjoy the dwarf cast system. It's one of their defining traits that makes them stand out culturally as a race against all the other races in Thedas. I always kinda viewed Bhelens ideals as taking the dwarves down the route of the city-elves, straying from the traditions that separate them and make them unique and in some cases adopting human traditions and customs for a better chance at survival... and yea that's cool and all but I want my dwarves to be DWARVES. I dont want my dwarves to just be short humans who live underground, I like the lore that sets them apart and I don't have any moral issues with the dwarven cast system due to the context of the world that its based in, its the same exact reason that I don't care that the imperium of mankind in 40k is blatantly evil by our modern standards. Of course they are, but I'm not drawn to fantasy so I can impose my modern morals on these fictional races, for me, its very immersion breaking. My prince Duran Aeducan is an honorable dwarf who detests liars and thieves and takes oaths of loyalty seriously. Nothing is more important to him than honor, the will of the ancestors, and the strength of the stone... and just like his forebear the great paragon Aeducan, he is obsessively concerned with the preservation of Dwarven civilization, this means the dwarven people as well as its culture, and he would sooner die than see a kinslayer take the throne of Orzammar, thus weakening the stone. For the dwarven people to endure, their honor and dignity must remain intact so as to strengthen the stone. Also, as far as pragmatic reasons go to support Harrowmont... Unlike Bhelen, he names you as his successor and has no heirs and thus is not a threat to the dwarf nobles son (if they have one) whereas Bhelen also had a son at the same time as your character, and knowing Bhelen we can only imagine what he has in store for your child (he plans on killing your son since he's a threat to his own childs legitimacy....duh). I also think many people overlook the fact that Harrowmont was King Endrins friend and close to him in age, Endrins health was already failing him at the beginning of the game and so its reasonable to assume that Harrowmont doesn't have many years of life left in him. So in my mind, choosing Harrowmont means choosing a weak but honorable man who will keep the throne warm for the return of the true king. THE PARAGON-KING AEDUCAN! In conclusion, I respect everyone's choice to roleplay their characters the way they want to, that's what makes DA:O so damn fun. I've personally always just really loved the idea of the honorable dwarf who embodies the will of his ancestors and Bhelen is pretty antithetical to that so I can never choose him in good conscience, no matter how good he may be in the short term, if chosen as king, he would never let the Dwarf Noble take the throne. And it seems pretty obvious to me that an honorable paragon-king Aeducan is the best hope for the dwarves in the long run, not Bhelen OR Harrowmont. Harrowmont is simply a faster means to a better end. EDIT: also everyone justifies Bhelens actions as being in line with how things are conducted in dwarven politics, assassinations and intriuge, and while true you forget that it mentions dwarves still greatly value honor. I think its much more fun to roleplay an Aeducan who seeks to reform the system in a different way, an Aeducan who seeks to lead the dwarves and hold them to a higher standard, a dwarf who wants to usher in an age of honor and glory. Leave the sneaky and dishonorable politics to the humans I say!!! Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this but Dwarven politics are a bitch, everyone, manipulates ,backstabs or finds different means to secure their own power , and how better to have just that than to isolate Orzammar even more with Harrowmont in charge. Sure he is an honorable goodie two shoes but he is a spineless toad, he doesn't become king out of his own choice but the people behind him who see it fitting to have ties with the future king. The epilog says it best he never achieves anything because we can only compromise to not piss off anyone, only isolation works before he dies. While Bhelen even if he is a hardass, played the politics game better than most dwarves, he got rid of his family so there would be no contestants to the throne or for anyone to use his family against him, which case Harrowmont does just that using the death of his king as a way to candidate for the throne because the dead King supported him but without any proof to the matter. He put those shapers in their place and allowed Orzammer to develop, which if you were to compare it to real life most politicians would secure their own power instead of allowing an unchecked individual take the power. It's back and forth, but Bheilen has a lot more backbone, even if his methods are extreme, if you are a dwarvan noble he will allow you back into house Aeducan while Harrowmont won't even consider or mention that you can join his house instead. And let's not forget Bhelen would use anyone able to fight while Harrowmont will only use those "loyal to the throne" as in ingnoring the castless because nobles must maintain their power.
My first play through I actually ended up killing the oldest brother. I cannot remember if he was there by behlen telling him he should go/ was playing both sides but I saw it as the eldest brother being a threat
But if I really have to go with one I have to choose the one that would be best for the people one that is not a tyrant, I prefer one that does not lie to the people just to get what they want and does dirty filthy things behind the scenes within the shadow, sounds a lot like the Democrats so anyways that is why I will vote for the one that did not do filthy dirty things to become king it's always important to look at their background and see what exactly are they willing to do to get what they want that's how you know you're not voting for a tyrant look on their backgrounds of what they've done and catch them in the lies.
Both aren't good choices the question is who is the LEAST worst yea bhelen is a dick and also a tyrant but on the other hand its either a tyrant or a inept king I don't really know who to choose I'd argue that bhelen is the better choice but I don't really like it
Harrowmont is kind and honorable but way too traditionalist and that same tradition is slowly killing off the Dwarves with every Blights adding to the fact that he closes relationship with surface kingdoms. Too passive and that caused a slow climb of discontent for every Castes then to his assassination. Bhelen is a dictator but he means well and is willing to make practical reforms. He's like Stalin but who actually cared for his people but his opposition so he's not necessarily a tyrant. He's the only one willing to extend dwarvish influence on the surface and that's a good thing. Abolish the caste system and gave the casteless valid reason to live. Macchiaveli suggested that it is better to be feared than loved if you can't be both. And what he meant is that a good ruler must be both. Bhelen fits that description, he's feared by the higher castes because of his royal privilege and loved by the lower castes and casteless because of his reforms.
@nanyafahkinbiznes1352 There’s a deshyr in Tapster's Tavern that talks about how dumb the caste system is, and says he doesn't care for either candidate but likes Harrowmont more. When I met him while playing for this video, I literally said outloud "Damn, *this guy* should be king!" 😂
@TheKingdomEntertainment I think that'd be Denik Helmi one of the deshyrs Harrowmont bribed into voting him. He's pretty open minded and liberally progressive himself he'd definitely approve of Bhelen's policy even if he's of the higher caste.
First of all, as a Warden Bhelen is a better choice. Whoever puts up more soliders against the dark spawn tide should be the winner for a warden, and that’s probably Bhelen. Of course you should care about the effect of your choices somewhat, however the dwarves are essentially a lost cause as you said. They clearly need a change, and that’s Bhelen. As to him being a tyrant: all kings are tyrants. Them being nice merely masks the nature their position. No truly nice person would acquiesce to becoming king. Harrowmont might make you feel better about your choice, but unfortunately that doesn’t help any character in game. Unfortunately in a desperate survival situation which the dwarves are in, a talented snake has a better chance to save them. You can’t worry about being nice while saving your entire population.
Jugue a este juego muy rapido por que queria jugar dragon age 2 con decisiones del origins (ahora lo estoy volviendo a jugar pero con cariño) cincerebte bhelen es mejor simplemente por el hecho de ver lo que esta mal en donde si esta mal en vez de hacerse el ciego y dejar que su propia sociedad se arruine lentamente el cambio siempre es necesario o bueno en ocasiones como estas
![Back to Orzammar [Dwarf Noble] | Dragon Age: Origins](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/v_9FjPG1jww/mqdefault.jpg)
![Back to Orzammar [Dwarf Noble] | Dragon Age: Origins](/img/tr.png)
When I was younger, I used to chose Harrowmont, but at some point I started to think Bhelen is better for Orzammar's future.
He's not good person and he did awful things, but is less restrictive and don't care about class structure. I like how he's nice to Warden's dwarf sister and even marry her.
Harrowmont is too still and don't see problems in their society...
Same here, thirteen years ago my young mind wasn't quite mature enough to grasp some of the concepts of Orzammar, but then later it dawned on me. Harrowmont's precious status quo is effectively a death sentence.
The dwarves are in decline and have been for a long time, Orzammar is shrinking rapidly as the Darkspawn claim Thaig upon Thaig, the Warrior Caste is diminishing and without the Anvil of the Void to churn out Golems they have no way to halt the enemy or reclaim the lost territory.
"Harrowmonts successor has a good chance of implementing the reforms more smoothly than Bhelen." Says Kingdom but here's the thing... there's no guarantee that they will. Harrowmont isn't likely to nominate a successor that doesn't share his stance on traditionalism, and even disregarding that... were he to be elected he could very well be the last king Orzammar is like to have.
Why? Because dwarves are extremely hardy people and while they don't have the nigh infinite longevity of the ancient elves they in most media typically live for centuries. Harrowmont may be old, but he's not decrepit, and at the rate they're going Orzammar could be overrun by darkspawn in his lifetime.
Speaking of the Anvil though, Harrowmont can't defend Orzammar without it because he's so adamant about traditions. Bhelen *can* because one of the first things he does as King is to open the city to surface trade and make it so Casteless can join the army, giving them some much needed reinforcements, less mouths to feed (because some casteless may distinguish themselves, but many more are likely to die) and most importantly *a supply line for the coming famine.*
But under Harrowmont, the borders close meaning no supply lines, no surface reinforcements and the only way for the casteless to join the army is by going under the hammer and being turned into Golems, because Golems aren't casteless anymore... they're weapons, *things.*
I go balen because it improves the lifes of the casless dwarfs and they can gain more in the long term good video
That's often me too. But usually I just choose based on what origin I've chosen to roleplay as. Normally if I play a Human Noble, they pick Bhelen due to their own past traumas regarding How and his attempts to usurp the Cousland title. (One of my current ones has an exception when she does some investigating and realizes that Bhelen's shady dealings puts him closer to Howe than her). The Dwarf Commoner also chooses Bhelen because their sister is dating him and they don't want to hurt her feelings. With my Dwarf Noble it varies depending on whether they've completed the Elf Quest first and learned about how wrong revenge is. Or if they're a man and had a kid.
The Harrowmont path is usually chosen by ones from a non-dwarf commoner origin that doesn't trust royalty to begin with.
@@kieranmahon4382 I only chose Bhelen as a commoner dwarf because apart from family reasons, he/she is someone who easily sympathizes with Bhelen's political path. Personally, I still prefer Harrowmont because in the end, even though he is a conservative, the progressive change of Orzammar society will happen sooner or later and morality and kindness are the most important things. .
I vote Bhelen. You think the dwarves are gonna care how Bhelen rules when they're starving because of trade restrictions and being massacred by darkspawn because they don't recruit the casteless in the military? It's irrelevant if there are malcontents to his rule, it's paramount Bhelen's rule benefit Orzammar's survival. Even my dwarf noble would be fool to side against Bhelen over petty vengeance. Who's gonna care who sits on the throne or who slighted who when the darkpawn overrun Orzammar? Orzammar society is dystopian, but it's monopoly on lyrium trade gives it global influence which benefits all dwarves and keeps the Circles and Templar institutions running. Dwarves can't afford to echew practicallity over their pride.
You hit the nail on the head, Gotdragon.
THIS and THIS exactly. Even roleplaying as the Aeducan Warden I still support Bhelen because in the end I know that he is doing what is necessary to move Dwarven society out of a 1000 year long decline. Executing Harrowmont is not only a tyrannical action, it is necessary to destroy the internal opposition of the conservative houses so that broad reforms can take place to make Dwarven society active again. It is shown that the Caste system lead to the decline of most Dwarven holds because precious manpower and ingenuity is wasted on heritage and false honour.
Funny enough my first ever playthrough of origins was a dwarf Nobel and there were two main reasons I didn't side Bhelen
1. Harrowmont was the chosen successor for my character's father so it made sense for my character to side with him
2. Realistically I don't think anyone would work with the brother that tricked you into killing your older brother and got your father into basically executing you by the darkspawn, so again made sense for my character to side with Harrowmont
For real life reasons I believe that prick and was really pissed off that he backstabbed me so I was looking at anyway to get back at him, and again he's a damn prick
Tyrants rarely deliver on their promises. Poor choice from you.
When I played a Dwarf Noble, I wasn't even mad that he framed me. I was actually pretty impressed. He showed a cut throat nature and the subtly it takes to be king. I also really agreed with his ideas of uplifting the castless. He was a bit of a dick, but hey -he has what it takes to rule. Harrowmont is far too mired in tradition.
That being said, it is an RPG -so I felt that it would have been weird to side with Bhelen after he almost killed me.
Orzemmar requires a Tyrant 👌
My main canon is a Dwarf noble and I can't justify Bhelen at least in that worldstate. I also kinda like the idea that my Warden in getting justice kind of dooms his home, makes for a more interesting story.
Soo... I DM'd a tabletop RPG where I sent the group through the events of Origins. One of them chose the Dwarf Noble and was betrayed. [NONE of them had played the video game]. The entire group WOULD NOT have Belen as King but nor would they accept Harrowmont who they saw as weak. In the campaign, it was Belen's sibling who became King [Another player basically played Alister and also became king, he the King of Feralden]. I've never seen a group SOO against an NPC as they were against Belen. [In the campaign, Carriden supported the brother as King when he crafted the crown, since dialogue options weren't as limited as the game]. It was fun to see them so riled up and into it.
I see you conveniently left out how Harrowmont made contractual promises to give two different parties the same land! Knowing nothing about the either man before arriving in Orzammar, that tipped the scales in Bhelan's favour.
Didn't it turn out that was fabricated by Bhelen? But even if it's real, that's not even close to the shady stuff Bhelen has done
You have option to take those documents to Sheparate and he immediately validates the documents as fakes. The dates are altered in order to frame Harrowmont. Bhelen plays very dirty to win the throne. Dealings with Carta and such in order to gain upper hand. Bhelen goes after Jarvia because he doesn't want lose ends.
Well, my Warden played Neutral, but she would pick Behlen when it came to the final choice. With him, Orzammar was likely to take a more active role in fighting the Blight rather than the defensive hold with only ever attacking when a noble house wanted to raid for artifacts. He also seemed to be able and willing to bring the Nobles in line instead of putting their position of power over the fate of the whole kingdom.
My first origins play through and main canon is also a female dwarf noble and I remember constantly telling Bhelen how our older brother would never do anything wrong he loves us and my character being shocked and upset to find out her brother framed her for the murder and used her own party members to help frame her. I fell in love with the dwarves lore, shape rates and wall of memories and all that stuff entails as I learned more about dragon age lore, and when it came time for me to return as an exile that no one tolerated or respected much less acknowledged, I was outraged and yes I let my emotions influence my decision, but it was also my fathers dying wish so I knew I had to honor that as well. On my next play through I helped Bhelen’s sub-plot quests and learned more about his ideals as a non-dwarf character and while some of them were alright, also finding out with that save file transferred to DA2 that he was hunting down and killing all of harrowmonts house as well, that rubbed me wrong too, it wasn’t enough to kill Lord Harrowmont, but to kill off his entire house when in the long run they really had no entitlement to the throne and pursuing them all the way to Kirkwall (plot contrived coincidence when there’s an entire world they could have gone but oh well) so it made me want to pick Lord Harrowmont in future plays just because he seemed more level headed and willing to be reasonable and listen to advisors not do things his way with an iron fist and bloody axe. Anyways love dwarven lore and your videos as always and as much as I love dwarves this one always seems personal to me thanks to my first character, so I also love and hate this decision just like many in the DA series!
I think the game showed clearly that the worst enemy of the Dwarves are themselves and bloodshed is unavoidable. They were like Caesar and Brutus: the first one was ruthless, succesful and convinced people that reforms are necessary, while second one was an idealist who fought for an ideal which no longer existed and people didn't really want that, but honor and tradition were paramount to him.
Belen is a reformist and a ruthless tyrant.
Harrowmont is a traditionalist and a compassionate dwarf.
…in the Inquisition Trespasser DLC, it ultimately doesn’t matter who you pick as it ends up the same.
i go with Bhelen he gets things done and helps the castless and takes back some Thaigs the other guy has little power as king gets stuck in arguments with the Deshers
I ran with a corrupt Dwarf Noble who would do just about anything to get the job done.
He even killed his own brother (which was something I didn’t even know you could do), sure it was under Bhelen’s manipulation, but I imagined my Warden was playing with the idea before hand.
After the Temple of Sacred Ashes where he made peace with the manifestation of his dead brother, he began to change for the better. Doing good for the sake of doing good.
When he finally returned to Orzammar he had every intention of bringing down Bhelen for the good of all. But after hearing how he would bring legitimate change to the cast system, he had to swallow his pride and assist his brother for the good of all.
It wasn’t an easy decision for me personally, but I felt as though my Warden would have choose his brother if it meant bringing about change in a corrupt system.
I have played as a dwarf noble. I don't like how Bhelen frames me but he is still family. I agree with him about his views and my Character never wanted to inherit their fathers throne. In fact had my traitorous brother asked I would have given the throne to him and even helped. So I'm fine with Bhelen ruling, even if I despise him for framing me to get it.
That is such an interesting take on it. I kinda want to read that fanfic
Killing Bhelen destroys House Aeducan so you would shame your Ancestors, the choice is clear.
Bhelen --> Good king, terrible person
Harrowmont --> Good person, terrible king
For his people, I think the first option will always be better, no matter how cruel it may be
I like how people go "He'll make the lives of Dwarves better" even when he goes mad with power, hunts down and murders Harrowmonts entire house, and loses his shit with the Anvil of the Void, to the point where even Branka realizes hes insane.
I think if he was any less ruthless he couldn’t change anything because of how backwards dwarves are. At the end of the day you are choosing between two bad options. It’s not like Harrowmont is nice. He literally forces Branka to hunt surface dwellers to turn them into golems via his inaction. If it’s like that you might as well vote for a change.
my take as is that Bhelen primarily hurts the nobility while Harrowmont hurts the lower classes, pretty clear choice for me
Another thing is Bhelen goes so far as to assinate all of Harrowmounts house. But as time goes on Harrowmount starts to show pettyness
My Warden (an elven mage) starts working WITH Bhelen as she meets with Vartag just outside the Assembly, she doesn't like Bhelen and she only cares about getting her troops, but Bhelen asks favor after favor to the point that my Warden's patience is finished, so she gives the crown to Harrowmont just to spite on him at the very end.
She doesn't care about dwarven politics, so she couldn't care less about Harrowmont being a good king or not, as long as she gets her troops to fight the Blight.
Also, in the end there is no real difference between any of them, just look in Inquisition.
For the longest time I chose harrowmont as a dwarf noble for obvious reasons. However when thinking about it I realised that changing a society like orzammar will never come without consequence. Its too rooted in some bad ideas and too many people profit from the status quo. So I began to side with Bhelen and from from I have seen afterwards he makes the lives of people in orzammar better and keeps stability. I think having a living paragon who is more level headed like my warden would be able to temper his cruelty and in time maybe take power. But that's just my headcannon.
It doesn't, he hunts down Harrowmonts entire house and if you don't destroy the Anvil he starts forcing people to become golems.
With Harrowmont I feel like Orzammar is screwed. They need a paradigm shift, and Belen is the one, who can make it. Yeh, it sucks he is an asshole and manipulates people, but in almost all of my playthroughs I ended up supporting him. Thedas needs a strong Orzammar to withstand the Drak Spawn and the Dread Wolf.
Wtf is dreadwolf?
@@notahamster333 its one of the elven old gods Fen Harrel.
I mean, you only mention it in the end... but for my dwarf commoner, it really wasn't a decision. That ON TOP of finally lifting the casteless up, they would have sacrificed a lot more to do it.
I always like to roleplay my characters, so whenever I play a commoner I choose Bhelen, due to the fact that my character grew up castless and understands how bad things really are for them. Also, they've proven that a castless can be a better warrior then one with a cast, and preventing them from fighting in the military will only further weaken, and rob them of great talents in their very long fight against the Darkspawn. If I play a Dwarf then I always choose Harrowmont, because the betrayl Bhelen did can't be justified and you were there to see and know what happened first hand, instead of being a commoner who only heard about it, and from a commoner's perspective either side could be lying for their own gain. As for an Elf or Human, I always choose Harrowmont, being the lesser of two evils, but longterm he's still a bad decision, but given his age he wouldn't be King as long as Bhelen so hopefully his replacement could undo whatever damage and restrictions he causes. But that's just me.
I always go with Bhelen. When I was younger, I went with Harrowmont because he seemed like a nicer guy. But as I grew older, I started to question that. How good of a person is someone if they fully allow and support a system of oppression and abuse while fully relying on their labor? The entire Casteless system is extreme exploitation filled with people that are the backbone of Orz. Desperation and lack of options turns it into a funnel for both The Carta and The Legion of the Dead which are the back bones of the city. They get used and abused. All it takes is to upset the wrong noble to find yourself in this spot.
If Harrowmonts kindness only really gets applied to those of a certain rank or use how kind is he? The way I understand dwarven politics, Bhelen’s actions were awful but they were par for the course for dwarven politicking. We can see this with Harrowmont, who deploys similar methods of slander and the like if you do not select him. Propaganda against the wardens during a blight stands out, which is incredibly stupid given the situation. The dwarves may not care about what goes on in the surface, but their insular nature is part of why their society is on the decline. Even if Harrowmont is to be considered honorable, he is so in the Ned Stark way- great guy but his honor and inability to see the big picture ultimately leads to his demise and dooms the Starks for a long time. Him as a leader will probably doom the dwarves down the line as they trend more and more towards isolationist tendencies.
I believe that as you get older you will wonder again if Orzammar need to trade its morality, honor and leadership into infighting in order to make the country strong? Orzammar's caste system is terrible but it is bound to change sooner or later. Bhelen is a radical king, but his tricks will easily incite hatred, sparking new power struggles. Harrowmont was a conservative, but that doesn't mean his heirs weren't radical in their thinking, while still maintaining morals and honor. I am not advocating for any side but I want to say that no matter who is chosen as the king of Orzammar, the consequences of that are always twofold and the fate of that country is not in the hands of one person but the whole nation.
Remember that whoever is the king of Orzammar, when you successfully help Dagna join the Circle of Magi or bring in the name of the Casteless dwarves participating in the defense of Kal-Hirol is what shows the social change in the way. A more progressive, humane way in Orzammar is needed and it is happening.
@@Kriegman2knot without Bhelen. Sure, Harromount heirs could be less like Harromount himself, but how likely is that really? Not enough that way more people should suffer way more years.
Really, a theme of Dragon Age is stability v progression. And you choose one or the other in Orzammar.
Depends on if I am playing a dwarf, if not Harrowmont. As you said he is an honorable man. If I am playing a dwarf, Bhelen every time. If I am playing commoner, for my sister if nothing else. If I am playing a noble, there is no way I am letting the throne pass from my house. Plus, no matter how dirty Bhelen is, he is playing dwarven politics as they are. Dwarven politics are far from honorable. They just want to look it.
The only playthrough that I sided with Bhelen was my Dwarf Commoner since through the mind of my warden he knows what Casteless go through on a regular basis. My Dwarf Noble sided with Harrowmont purely on the grounds of there was no way I was going to let Bhelen soil that Throne after murdering Trian and framing his other brother for it.
I went Harrowmont for the longest time because I can't _stand_ Bhelen. That said, in my ideal world state, I grudgingly put in Bhelen to get movement in dwarven society to keep the dwarves relevant and alive going forward. Plus, dwarves will run over a weak King. Though I think you're probably right about looking to whoever is King _after._
That said, I still like the Warden, if they're a Noble Dwarf, just taking the throne and then training a successor; feels like a good end-run around either of them 😂
You can take the throne as a Dwarf Noble?
@@channel45853 Nope, that's a fanfic. Even if being a Grey Warden didn't mean any and all titles and inheritance is forfeit, (Which they are, Alistair being a very rare exception because he's the *only* living successor of the Theirin bloodline, and if he's crowned he basically has to quit the order.) the dwarven throne cannot be claimed without an election from the assembly, and that's usually *after* nomination by the ruling monarch, which Orzammar doesn't have in 9:30 Dragon.
I suppose the Arling of Amaranthine does kind of throw a wrench in the notion of Grey Wardens holding no titles and no land... though it was given to the order itself, not the PC of Origins/Awakening.
I agree. It's better to have a good person in office even if he has bad policies - governing is more than just policies, it's about decision making and a leader needs a strong moral compass to guide them in making those decisions. For every "reform" Bhelen makes with the surface dwarves, the casteless, etc. how many corrupt and vicious deeds is he committing that we don't know about?
Most would choose lion, yes,for short term reasons and taking everything personal. but better choice be snake. cause harrowmont already let him infiltrate his men, he let him do what he did when his the old king was in charge. or he was unable to counter it, which is worse. it's actually questionable how was harrowmont able to keep half the assembly in his favour,no matter who you side with during Orzammar walkthrough
They should have put it to where you become the next king of the dwarves!
I like the idea of supporting Bhelen, even as a dwarf Noble. The opening dialogue of the dwarf noble cinematic makes it clear that political intrigue, assassinations, and secret alliances are part and parcel to dwarven politics. Someone who grew up in that world would probably respect Bhelen’s ability to play the game. Also, while Harrowmont is the much more honorable person he is simply not as skillful as Bhelen, and given the crises of both the Blight on the surface and in Dwarven society as a whole a strong leader is needed.
Besides, at the end of the game a dwarf Warden becomes a paragon and given how much pull they have I figure a paragon could simply have Bhelen killed whenever he’s outlived his usefulness and replace him with a king of their choosing.
The snake move ozammar forward we have no idea what Harrowmont’s successor does
I personally think Bhelen, but for roleplaying purposes I pretty much always choose Bhelen if I'm a dwarf (either origin) or elf commoner. Dalish and Circle mage could go either way, and Human Noble usually picks Harrowmont.
Ultimately I think Bhelen is the better choice. Being "nice" and being "good" are not the same thing, and I think that's the mistake that Harrowmont and players who support him make. It is pretty clear that most, if not all, nobility in Orzammar and probably Fereldan is corrupt. And in Orzammar it could not be more clear with an actual caste system that designates people as "mistakes who should not have been born and, according to the records, never were" from birth. That shit is fucked, that system needs to go. It really does not matter who needs to die or what needs to burn to accomplish it. Allowing a vile status quo to go unchallenged and change slowly over time is not kind, good, or noble. It's complicit. People always suffer. They are suffering right now, the only difference is that the people in power and not suffering -- although they too are actually suffering. They are happy to let the poor people and the castless suffer all of the failings of their society. The actual noble, correct thing to do is to redistribute that suffering more equally with intention, that intention being the ultimate lessening of suffering from everyone. Not just some people.
Also, the line between a king and a tyrant is pretty thin in this case. And a tyrant isn't necessarily a bad thing, because that assumes that the system that propped up the tyrant is necessarily good. Which as I just explained, is certainly not the case. Ideally the Dwarves would have a hero king like Alistair, but in this case the hero tyrant is the better option than the complicit king.
I do wish the game provided more information, especially for non-dwarf Wardens, but maybe that is the point. The Warden probably would not get much info to go off of, and yeah ultimately this choice is one made from a meta player perspective but it's one of those things that is really hard to ignore once you realize. I sort of wish that there was an option to side with and put Jarvia on the throne, honestly. I wonder how that might have looked, to flesh out the perspective of the casteless criminals who were literally forced into that life by the system to survive. She would probably be super radical and super evil up front, but would almost certainly dissolve the caste system as soon as possible.
if i would have played as a dwarf i would probably picked Harrowmont but i played as a human noble warden and i picked Bhelen yes he is ruthless but overall he still wants the best for Orzammar and he has a right at the throne by blood
It's kind of disappointing that Bhelen is shown to be such a superior choice to Harrowmont in Inquisition... that being said I approach my choices from an RPG perspective and always go Harrowmont for any surfacer who doesnt have personal insight into Orzammer. As Brosca choosing Bhelen is obvious however, my sister could be queen and my people get more rights, I have no reason to respect traditions that made me suffer. As Aeducan I like to play a ruthless family loyalist who can see the skill in Bhelen's actions against me and I want the throne to stay with the Aeducan line.
Really? I remember that everything is the same in Inquisition no matter who is king, the only difference is the name.
I side with Bhelen the reason is that the castless is longer stuck and that Ozammar does relaim som thaigs that has been lost. I think Bhelen is needed to shake up the Dwarven soceity so they understand what is needed to reclaim their cities and roads.
Many Drawfs cast and castless leave for the surface because the leaders in Ozammar is stuck in poloitical infifting instead of an strong Champaning against the Darkspawn.
It's a tough decision indeed. The way I see it, harrowmont is the way to go. Darkspawn are the main issue, and that problem is every race's problem but the dwarves seem to accept that burden alone. Outsiders will notice harrowmont's actions to try to keep the peace and will more likely help rather then see bhelen's actions and judge them as they get what they deserve and not help. That's just me if the dwarves fail its not because of their ruling style but because of lack of help from outsiders with the darkspawn. The next king will do better following the example of harrowmont
I played as the dwarf casteless origin and I back Bhelen everytime. Not cause I like him, but because the warden's sister's life has become so tied to his success. Rica's place in society, if Bhelen is crowned with a casteless warden changes from casteless to queen. Not to mention she has a son with him. Could not betray my girl like that
For me, it 100% depends on my warden. My favorite to play are city elf and castless dwarf and they both go with Bhelen, but pretty much anything else and I choose Harromont
Well I think if you are playing male noble dwarf and you sleep with Mardy or what was that noble hunter's name from the origin, your son will probably arise as a king when he comes that age.
It’s a hard choice. Harrowmount is an honourable dwarf who is loyal and compassionate, but too much of a traditionalist to undertake the reforms necessary to secure the future of Orzammar. He turns out to be a well intentioned but weak King, easily controlled by the Noble Assembly.
Bhelen, meanwhile is utterly ruthless when pursuing his goals. He’s a radical reformer who sees Dwarf society as being fundamentally broken and sets out to change it. He arguably has good intentions- he wants to uplift the Casteless and give them a place in society and better relations with the surface in order to fight back the Darkspawn and reclaim lost lands. But to achieve his goals, he arranges the murder of one brother, the exile of another and eventually rules a dictator, albeit one beloved by his supporters.
It’s a case where if you pick the ‘Good’ guy, it’s arguably the bad choice as nothing changes, but if you pick the ‘bad’ guy, the Dwarves have more of a chance going forwards, even if it’s under dictatorial rule.
I see Behlen kinda like Ceasar.
Ceasar was a very corrupt tyrant, but when he got into power he actually did alot of good reforms - reforms that were needed for ordinary people & for the system as a whole.
My 1st playthrough I choose Harromont - but with hindsight I always choose Behlen.
When I play dwarf noble, I will always side with harrowmont. Dwarf never forget
my vote is for King Balen
I take getting framed by my murderous brother very personal so I have a hard time rooting for Bhelen.
From a Dwarf Noble point of view, Bhelen could not become king in the end without his older brother/sister assistance. Also he'll still be another king forgotable against you a paragon and legend.
This might be a hot take but if this is how Orzammar is, I feel like life on the surface as a dwarf is better. Yeah you probably won’t be in your homeland, and yeah you will not be able to see your people again, but I don’t think I could handle the castes getting stricter and trade with the surface being even more restricted to begin with if under Harrowmont’s rule. They are already struggling as is. But to know that Bhelen would be willing to kill his brother (and possibly his father) and frame his only other sibling for it, what makes you think he won’t do terrible things to other innocent people for his own goals? Disguised by the fact that he wants things better for the dwarves? He killed Harrowmont and his house for no reason.
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With Orzamarr being in a shape like this, it is better to be on the surface. At least you can be yourself, without a caste dictating your life. At least there is more food and opportunities. It’s not with your people, but it is better than living in a deranged society.
WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! Hold up! Wait a minute! Somethin' ain't right. We need to talk about these female dwarves who have facial hair in this video!
But seriously though, this choice is easy, and it all comes down to what kind of Warden you're running. My male dual weapon warrior Cousland checked the deed agreement with the Shaper to discover Vartag altered them. So he only showed them to Lady Dace so he could get into the Deep Roads early. Then he helped Harrowmont in the Proving, while also not declaring victory in his name. After meeting with Harrowmont and seeing that he was an honorable man, he still wanted to meet with Bhelen and see what he was all about. He used his meeting with Harrowmont to trick Vartag into thinking he infiltrated Harrowmont's inner circle. He told Vartag that Harrowmont wanted him to take down Jarvia, and got the false evidence. He took down Jarvia and planted the false evidence since he knew that could never lead back to him. So he played it off to Harrowmont as if he didn't know, and that gave my Warden access to Bhelen. After finding out what Bhelen was like by talking to him (Bhelen openly advocates murdering Branka if she doesn't endorse him), he made his choice to support Harrowmont. He makes sure to mention that Caradin trusted him to make the decision himself, and he chose Harrowmont. Not only is Bhelen not worthy, but he's a short-sighted, hot-tempered tyrant. All he had to do was bend the knee and he could have simply waited for Harrowmont to die of old age, or helped him along later on down the line. But he didn't. He threw a fit right there and tried to outright assassinate his king. So he got put down, and I think Oghren was the one to kill him in my playthrough. Ultimately, the choice of king never should have come down to my Cousland anyway, so he saw Harrowmont as the choice that carried the least amount of interference from the surface. That and Bhelen was evil, while Harrowmont was honorable. Everything that might take place after that is meta. So I don't regard it.
Conversely, my Amell pyro bloodmage took a similar approach in playing both sides, but ultimately chose Bhelen in hopes of future profit for himself, and he didn't care about honor or the lives of the dwarves. He also sided with Branka to get more golems, losing Shale in the process. So this really just comes down to your own Warden's moral alignment.
Greatest city in the world.
If that City falls the world falls with it
Yea in the long run Belen is best, after all dwarven civilization is on the brink and must reform or die
When I was younger I choose Harrowmont because he was a good man. But now that I'm older and read up on the consequences of both choices.... I have to choose Bhelen. He opens up for more trading, allows more people to take up arms against the darkspawn and with the greater numbers and support from the humans is able to take back thaigs. While Harrowmont all but cuts off Orzammar from the rest of the world, almost dooming the dwarves. Its tough, but the good for the whole of Orzammar and the dwarves outweigh the good or bad between the two.
Did you run a marathon or something while reading this?
I once heard a line in a movie that goes like this, "Sometimes, we do the wrong things for the right reasons." And I think that this is the case here. Bhelen is best for Orzammar.
I'm probably gonna pick behlen. Just destroy the anvil and we don't have a problem with forcing people to become golems.
Balen is a leader and in a time of the blight they need a leader
I get what your're saying, but I feel dirty with sing Harrowmont. On the long term he's ideas are past their time and Orzammar becomes isolated from the surface and the castless and won't do anything about the darkspawn. Bhelen IS a tyrant but his actions DO imporve the life the city. They start to push back the darkspawn, the castless gain rights wich makes a great imporvement in their life, and their relationship with the surfice also improves. Harrowmont and his supporters can claim they are honorable and honest, but in reality all they can show is that they can stand proudly next to the bodies
Most of the time I play this game I play as a Princess Darf who sides with her own house and regains her status and honor.
I usually side with bhelen for two reasons one he seems to be the more progressive ruler with increasing trade with the surface and allowing the castles into the military the second I always played the dwarf commoner origin where he gives the wardens sister a better life
Harrowmont is the one we all voted for in the start because Bhelen is an asshole who - as we find out - caused the deaths of his siblings to gain power.
Bhelen is the one we vote for second time around because Harrowmont continues down the path that doesn't work, while Bhelen is a reformer. Also, considering the options you have when playing Dwarf noble, it is just as likely that Bhelen was the _least_ dickish child of the king.
Not me, Harrowmont all the way. The Riddler can go shove it.
Yeah, Behlen was dirty, but so was Enderin, who also killed his brother. Thats how Dwarven politics work.
Backstabbing, betrayal, and deception. It's expected.
Behlen was simply a master at it. And I believe at the end of the day the ends justify the means.
If it mean a better life for all those castless, then let the halls of Orzammar run with the blood of the honorable.
Orzammar needs Bhelen, whether they like it or not. The ghosts of those he discards won't matter, because in the end the people of Orzammar would likely prefer to live under a tyrant, then die next to an 'honorable' king. Honor and tradition won't save lives or feed hungry mouths. Progress will.
The first time I ever played a Dwarf Noble I sided with Harrowmont because I wanted Behlen dead. I was wrought with vengeance.
All other playthroughs I chose to work with Behlen, because even though he's a dick and very much a tyrant ruler, his progressive politics are better for Orzammar in general.
There both good and bad choices harammot is a kind and honorable man but his stuck in the pass and won’t change witch it’s not good for people that needs resources like food and water and seance they have darkspawn literally near them they need help from the surface to keep the darkspawn back while bhalin is a possible tyrant but his ideas is noble and it can keep there city stable but seance he betrayed his brothers and father to further his goals of power but i will give him two good things he wants to help his people and keep resources at least stable for awhile
I'm really late to the party but I just have to say, It's kinda always bugged me how so many folks in the DA community apply modern standards to human (or dwarf) rights violations. I realize that in the real world, the cast system is a bad thing, but when it comes to my medieval based dark fantasy, I quite enjoy the dwarf cast system. It's one of their defining traits that makes them stand out culturally as a race against all the other races in Thedas. I always kinda viewed Bhelens ideals as taking the dwarves down the route of the city-elves, straying from the traditions that separate them and make them unique and in some cases adopting human traditions and customs for a better chance at survival... and yea that's cool and all but I want my dwarves to be DWARVES. I dont want my dwarves to just be short humans who live underground, I like the lore that sets them apart and I don't have any moral issues with the dwarven cast system due to the context of the world that its based in, its the same exact reason that I don't care that the imperium of mankind in 40k is blatantly evil by our modern standards. Of course they are, but I'm not drawn to fantasy so I can impose my modern morals on these fictional races, for me, its very immersion breaking. My prince Duran Aeducan is an honorable dwarf who detests liars and thieves and takes oaths of loyalty seriously. Nothing is more important to him than honor, the will of the ancestors, and the strength of the stone... and just like his forebear the great paragon Aeducan, he is obsessively concerned with the preservation of Dwarven civilization, this means the dwarven people as well as its culture, and he would sooner die than see a kinslayer take the throne of Orzammar, thus weakening the stone. For the dwarven people to endure, their honor and dignity must remain intact so as to strengthen the stone.
Also, as far as pragmatic reasons go to support Harrowmont... Unlike Bhelen, he names you as his successor and has no heirs and thus is not a threat to the dwarf nobles son (if they have one) whereas Bhelen also had a son at the same time as your character, and knowing Bhelen we can only imagine what he has in store for your child (he plans on killing your son since he's a threat to his own childs legitimacy....duh). I also think many people overlook the fact that Harrowmont was King Endrins friend and close to him in age, Endrins health was already failing him at the beginning of the game and so its reasonable to assume that Harrowmont doesn't have many years of life left in him. So in my mind, choosing Harrowmont means choosing a weak but honorable man who will keep the throne warm for the return of the true king. THE PARAGON-KING AEDUCAN!
In conclusion, I respect everyone's choice to roleplay their characters the way they want to, that's what makes DA:O so damn fun. I've personally always just really loved the idea of the honorable dwarf who embodies the will of his ancestors and Bhelen is pretty antithetical to that so I can never choose him in good conscience, no matter how good he may be in the short term, if chosen as king, he would never let the Dwarf Noble take the throne. And it seems pretty obvious to me that an honorable paragon-king Aeducan is the best hope for the dwarves in the long run, not Bhelen OR Harrowmont. Harrowmont is simply a faster means to a better end.
EDIT: also everyone justifies Bhelens actions as being in line with how things are conducted in dwarven politics, assassinations and intriuge, and while true you forget that it mentions dwarves still greatly value honor. I think its much more fun to roleplay an Aeducan who seeks to reform the system in a different way, an Aeducan who seeks to lead the dwarves and hold them to a higher standard, a dwarf who wants to usher in an age of honor and glory. Leave the sneaky and dishonorable politics to the humans I say!!!
Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this but Dwarven politics are a bitch, everyone, manipulates ,backstabs or finds different means to secure their own power , and how better to have just that than to isolate Orzammar even more with Harrowmont in charge. Sure he is an honorable goodie two shoes but he is a spineless toad, he doesn't become king out of his own choice but the people behind him who see it fitting to have ties with the future king. The epilog says it best he never achieves anything because we can only compromise to not piss off anyone, only isolation works before he dies.
While Bhelen even if he is a hardass, played the politics game better than most dwarves, he got rid of his family so there would be no contestants to the throne or for anyone to use his family against him, which case Harrowmont does just that using the death of his king as a way to candidate for the throne because the dead King supported him but without any proof to the matter. He put those shapers in their place and allowed Orzammer to develop, which if you were to compare it to real life most politicians would secure their own power instead of allowing an unchecked individual take the power.
It's back and forth, but Bheilen has a lot more backbone, even if his methods are extreme, if you are a dwarvan noble he will allow you back into house Aeducan while Harrowmont won't even consider or mention that you can join his house instead. And let's not forget Bhelen would use anyone able to fight while Harrowmont will only use those "loyal to the throne" as in ingnoring the castless because nobles must maintain their power.
My first play through I actually ended up killing the oldest brother. I cannot remember if he was there by behlen telling him he should go/ was playing both sides but I saw it as the eldest brother being a threat
But if I really have to go with one I have to choose the one that would be best for the people one that is not a tyrant, I prefer one that does not lie to the people just to get what they want and does dirty filthy things behind the scenes within the shadow, sounds a lot like the Democrats so anyways that is why I will vote for the one that did not do filthy dirty things to become king it's always important to look at their background and see what exactly are they willing to do to get what they want that's how you know you're not voting for a tyrant look on their backgrounds of what they've done and catch them in the lies.
Both aren't good choices the question is who is the LEAST worst yea bhelen is a dick and also a tyrant but on the other hand its either a tyrant or a inept king I don't really know who to choose I'd argue that bhelen is the better choice but I don't really like it
@3:43 IT'S NOT?!
Harrowmont is kind and honorable but way too traditionalist and that same tradition is slowly killing off the Dwarves with every Blights adding to the fact that he closes relationship with surface kingdoms. Too passive and that caused a slow climb of discontent for every Castes then to his assassination.
Bhelen is a dictator but he means well and is willing to make practical reforms. He's like Stalin but who actually cared for his people but his opposition so he's not necessarily a tyrant. He's the only one willing to extend dwarvish influence on the surface and that's a good thing. Abolish the caste system and gave the casteless valid reason to live.
Macchiaveli suggested that it is better to be feared than loved if you can't be both. And what he meant is that a good ruler must be both. Bhelen fits that description, he's feared by the higher castes because of his royal privilege and loved by the lower castes and casteless because of his reforms.
@nanyafahkinbiznes1352 There’s a deshyr in Tapster's Tavern that talks about how dumb the caste system is, and says he doesn't care for either candidate but likes Harrowmont more. When I met him while playing for this video, I literally said outloud "Damn, *this guy* should be king!" 😂
@TheKingdomEntertainment I think that'd be Denik Helmi one of the deshyrs Harrowmont bribed into voting him. He's pretty open minded and liberally progressive himself he'd definitely approve of Bhelen's policy even if he's of the higher caste.
How to become the king of Midgets :)
First of all, as a Warden Bhelen is a better choice. Whoever puts up more soliders against the dark spawn tide should be the winner for a warden, and that’s probably Bhelen. Of course you should care about the effect of your choices somewhat, however the dwarves are essentially a lost cause as you said. They clearly need a change, and that’s Bhelen. As to him being a tyrant: all kings are tyrants. Them being nice merely masks the nature their position. No truly nice person would acquiesce to becoming king. Harrowmont might make you feel better about your choice, but unfortunately that doesn’t help any character in game. Unfortunately in a desperate survival situation which the dwarves are in, a talented snake has a better chance to save them. You can’t worry about being nice while saving your entire population.
Jugue a este juego muy rapido por que queria jugar dragon age 2 con decisiones del origins (ahora lo estoy volviendo a jugar pero con cariño) cincerebte bhelen es mejor simplemente por el hecho de ver lo que esta mal en donde si esta mal en vez de hacerse el ciego y dejar que su propia sociedad se arruine lentamente el cambio siempre es necesario o bueno en ocasiones como estas