A direct comparison. As much as possible. Souled and unsouled. Ensouled and unsouled? Unsouled and resouled? Are those even words? Whatever. You get it.
This series came out when I was eleven years old and ended when I was 17. I am watching the reruns and I have to say I am getting hooked onto the storylines (mainly Buffy and Spike). Can I also say I am starting to get a serious thing for James Marsters even though he was in between his late thirties and early forties when he was playing Spike in Buffy and the spin-off Angel?
yes that is because spike human was just a shy poet and spike vamp was not evil enough he just wanted to impress angelus and dru. so basically two characters- one good, one evil but both too close to the neutral point. ensouled spike was just done with all the shit. while Angelus was a psycho chaotic evil and Angel mostly lawful good so very oposite personalities
Emm not all English sound like that and not all Irish people sound like that but i have heard both version on people from each land. My own and Irland.
tbf as a British person you can tell he's putting on the accent he's pretty good at it though, But it does give you that Victorian cockney accent which works very well with his character.
spike was weak as a human and craved attention. liam was enjoying alcohol and women but wasnt evil. just a spoilt brat not respecting authorities. that is what they both took to their afterlifes. angelus being a spoilt brat but this time evil. spike was a weak vampire in the sense that he was leaning to humanity ( weak from a vampire point of view) and wanted dru's and angelus' s attention just like his human persona
Spike was made from a man of artistic inspiration, angel was made from a drunk. I always wondered if those beginnings were what helped shaped them as vampires?
definitely! it is hinted in the show. liam was a hedonistic man enjoying women and alcohol , disrespecting authorities, but wasnt evil. he was just a spoilt brat. chaotic good (he was devastated to hear he actually killed someone and spent years figuring out what to do with the guilt - and still has isdues) . see how he turned to be a chaotic evil enjoying blood women and torture as some twisted party. he disrespected the vampire master such as liam disrespected his father. spike was a romantic misunderstood artist and it turned him to a vampire with a tendency towards humanity and love. he would kill yes but he didnt enjoy it as much as angel. he was craving for attention from dru and angel just like when he was human and seeking attention from the audience. in the episode when vampire willow from alternate universe comes to real sunnydale willow wonders if she has something in common with her vampire equivalent. giles comforts her saying vampire personality has nothing in common with the human and then Angel joins in and says:Well actually...then he stops himself as others look at him and he realises he doesnt want to share as it would mean to admit he was a spoilt brat as a human and he didnt want to embarass himself. so he continues yes you are right, nothing in common.
Liam wasn't just a drunk. He was an angry young man with a desire to get out from underneath his father's house and see the world. Yet at the same time, he wanted to prove himself to his father. His 'evil' was a result of his insecurity and his need to be more than a rich mans slothful son. So every time he kills, assaults, tortures, he considers it a victory. Not for the demon. But for the man that still hunts his memories.
Wait a minute now lets not pretend like Spike wasn't Evil ! He wasn't as pure evil as Angel but he was still evil none the less in beginning he killed 3 slayers and tried to kill buffy many times he only became good cause of that chip in his Head he couldn't harm humans so consider this fact humans are an Vampire prey if they can't react to their nature then how can they live on? It's like taking a lion out of the wild and into the zoo he lost his ability and knowledge of hunting that's why when you look in their eyes you always see a form of sadness well that is what happened to spike he fail in love with Buffy and that's the only thing that kept him moving and that is the only reason why he wanted to continue living and that's why he became moral cause mentally he had no other choice ! Now don't get me wrong his love for Buffy became genuine but if it wasn't for that he probably would have killed himself eventually
@@e-magicgodofdeath5428 he was evil yes, but because he was turned to an evil person, in the new season of the comics spike lost his soul again but he didnt turn evil this time because he was done with evil he was still spike and he tried to give his soul to drussila but she was too damged and she coudn't handle it so he took it back afterwards
SPIKE is my favourite character of the serie ! So Dangerous, funny, sensual, sexy, emotional and protective, really in love with Buffy and of course I like his look, his hair, smile
I've watched buffy since I was a child I'm 22 now. Rewatching it as a kid (preteen before I understood all of it) I preferred Angel Now that I'm older I prefer Spike Part of me will still always love Angel But spike loved Buffy without a soul Angel tortured her when he didn't have one
Angel is that teen romantic fantasy hero, whereas Spike is the messier less than perfect but far more mature and real relationship. You can sort see that in how story progresses. The relationship between Angel and Buffy is by nature less than physical, an innocent one, that at the moment they try to take it a step further they destroy it beyond repair. While the relationship she has with Spike, opponent, confidant, lover, to finally love interest is far more nuanced and isn't limited by anything except what they themselves want. I think for the writers they realized that they could only take the relationship with Angel so far as the characters grew older. He was perfect during those early teen seasons as a romantic lead, exactly because the curse on his soul set a limit on any real relationship developing, and made him this perfect ideal teen romantic and tragic shining knight in armor figure. But at the same time it made it impossible for them to actually make the relationship real, without destroying everything that Angel was as a character. So in the end the characters had to move on. They tried various other relationship leads with Buffy, which clearly didn't work, and in the end the one that developed was Spike. Often good writers will tell you that characters seem to have a will of their own. This show had excellent writers, and I'm not surprised that they allowed the story and relationships to evolve where the characters seemed to naturally go.
I always loved spike, because when angel was with buffy he barely had a character, but spike had a real character, and a drive, and a real reason for loving buffy.
Spike wanted buffy because angel banged Drusilla Infront of spike after he was turned. Check season 5 angel. Angel banged Dru after spike was turned and he seen it as it happen
@claireiceThe difference I see is Angel on AtS interacted with people. On Buffy, he was just anchored to one person. Spike interacted with more people on the series . Even as a villain, Spike wasn't an island.
As a human, Spike was only weak in the sense that he was risk-averse and afraid to step outside societal boundaries. He obviously had the capacity for love and passion as evidenced by his love for his mother and Cecily. And those traits carried over when he was sired which is why he turned his mother and why he was also able to kill her. It's just that, after his human death, he realized boundaries are meaningless and lived passionately to the extreme. Spike wears his heart on his sleeve. I think it was this and his ability to see through people that gave him the edge over the two slayers he killed and also the reason he could reach through to Buffy when no one else could. It's also why he could so confidently proclaim his love for Buffy even after all that he did to her prior and despite her rejections and others' ridicule.
1:39 Now I see WHY Buffy treated soulless Spike like shit because she was treated the same way by soulless Angel before and therefore couldn't trust Spike! :D Makes me wonder how things turned out if a "soulless in love with Buffy" Spike and Buffy the Virgen would have had sex? :D
Thats true people base things on their first real relationship however, Angel was redeemed his humanity only to wish the day back,so Buffy would be at risk. They restarted the day and nobody but Angel would know what he could have had but cant because of Buffy's calling. If he stayed human,she would have died because he no longer was immortal. Now he has to know what he could had but as he said he shall never be.
Yeah how dumb was Angel looking at Acathla, delighted all living things would be destroyed... setting fire to the only grocery shop in town. No. More. Food. Duh.
And therein lies the difference. Angel, after he lost his soul, tried relentlessly to torture Buffy, always trying to come up with new and better ways to do that. Spike, soulless, fell in love with Buffy, and in that love, went through horrible trials to win his soul back. He loved her better and more deeply with a soul!
Spike loved his mom. He wanted to change her into a vampire because he loved her to much to leave her behind. He loved Buffy enough to fight for his soul because she told him she couldn't be with him because he has no soul. How is that even possible without a soul? How was he able to love is Mother and Buffy without a soul?
The whole thing with his mom also explains why Spike doesn't have any issues killing other vampires or monsters, he already crossed that threshold as his first act as a vampire other than turning her in the first place. Spike is a bit of an anomaly as a vampire in the Buffyverse. I think that's why Drusilla was so interested in him in the first place, he's special.
I suspect that Spike became a vampire anomaly because of the interesting conditions that were present when he was turned. Drusilla was already special since she had the Sight and William was a pure soul (idealistic and a virgin) when she bit him. Spike retained most of his humanity and wasn’t remotely as evil as the rest of his vampire family.
Positive personality traits don't leave with the soul, they're always there but no longer given expression when the soul leaves. At the same time, the negative traits were suppressed are allowed to surface, and amplified by the demon that replaces the soul to animate the body. William was pure love, vs Liam who was already a totally amoral person before becoming a vampire. "All that we are, informs all that we become."
@@GemofAmara Yes and no. Yeah, he goes through a lot of character development but due to the nature of the show revolving around his attempts to redeem himself, he always has to suffer setbacks and revert back to the brooding loner he was on Buffy at least once in awhile. Angel is certainly a redemption arc done wrong while Spike is a redemption arc done right. Interestingly enough, Angel is one of those wrong redemption arcs that aren't bad because they make too easy for the character to be redeemed but because they make it too hard to the point that it becomes virtually impossible for the character to be redeemed.
@@GermanLeftist it was never about the end goal of redemption on Angel, it was always about fighting on even when there's no more chance of redemption. Angel even signs away his chance for humanity to hurt Wolfram & Hart even though it would not defeat them. Angel without a soul is pure evil incapable of love. He tells Darla that all he ever felt with her was perfect despair. Spike however was not capable of love either, just positive emotions that emulate love. he even admits it to Buffy in the penultimate episode of BTVS. True love is selfless and would never attempt to rape someone to fullfill their self gratification.
@@sym8774 also he was a complete villain before. I think she treated him bad because she resented how she was doing things she would never had done such as sleeping with spike to cope with her downward spiral.
@@whitedragoness23 what upset me is when spike said no u don’t and he thinks he’s not gonna good enough for her when we know that’s not true. I wish they resolved this
natalie argote Angel gave up his chance to be human, to have a full relationship with Buffy, because he knew it had to be done. I think that's harder than what Spike did.
But when Angel was allowed to finally be happy and experienced true love with Buffy. He took the curse back. He was only one to remember this along with Doyle who dies anyway. Buffy even wouldn't remember.
Yeah he went out his way to get a soul, I'll give him that. However, the reason was not a honest one a hero choice. Angel always makes the hardest decision and though cursed, he owned up to it to be a hero. He could've stay human at one point, marry Buffy and just live a normal life BUT HE KNEW! He knew that would be selfish, so he had the powers that be rewind time so that he can still fight even though it means he will be a vampire with a soul again and he couldn't be with Buffy. He gave up his happiness because the world needed them both.
I always thought it was strange how closely related the vampires human names were. Angelus was "Liam" as human and Spike was named "William". "Liam is another form of William. I'd almost say they were two sides of the same coin.
It was considered, back in the day. I believe the notion was to do a 10 episode series with Spike, but they dropped the idea. He got his own comic book, at least, so there's that.
I did enjoy Angel, but the best year was the one where Spike was brought back from the dead. And, according to James Marsters, a fifth year was iffy, so TPTB wanted to add Spike!!!
They all played pretty complex characters. Faith, Angel, Anya, Willow, Fred, Drusilla, Darla and Spike. Seriously, love what Joss did with the series. So many complicated dynamics. The only issue I had when Spike saying Angelus was his yoda. When in most of the flashbacks they didn’t even like each other and Angel couldn’t control him. Lol
Some of the best characters ever written. 👏 ❤ When Spike was initially conceived he was intended to die mid-season, so in School Hard he refers to Angel as his sire and his Yoda, and pronounces his name wrong. lol They retconned that later and Joss explained Spike calling Angelus his sire by saying that any vampire in the line is considered a sire, but that's the only time sire is used in that way. It's just because Spike was meant to be temporary, but it's always disorienting to hear on rewatch.
Angel wasn't actually a "good person". He was just guilt driven, trying to find redemption for the things he had done. It also says about how he got his soul: as a curse, a punishment. He didn't love life, he didn't love the world, he was just trying to stop his own pain. Spike, on the other hand, wasn't driven (just) by guilt: he was actually driven by love. He loved life, loved the world - which he tried to save, even before the chip. He actually cared for Buffy - and not for the "pure/innocent" teenager, he cared for her as a complex woman, facing her scariest moments. That's why he fought to get his soul back - he wanted to feel more, to be whole. In his soulless version, he wanted to embrace (the after)life in it's pure intensity, as Angel just wanted to destroy it all. Angel's soul was a leash, preventing him from acting like he trully wanted if his guilt's pain didn't stop him. Spike's soul was part of what set him free.
While I adore Spike too, I will never be able to get behind this reading of Angel. Sure, Angel's getting his soul back in the first place was a curse meant to torture him, but it was shown over and over again that he DID actively choose to be a good person, and that that was never a matter of the curse forcing him to be so. He had no control over losing his soul, nor over the degree of humanity he could retain after doing so (in his case, it was none). But time and time again in the story, when he DOES have a choice, we see him make the ones that result in the most good, even if it means giving up happiness for himself. And he expresses outright to Darla that, regardless of how he got it back, he very much considers having a soul and humanity a gift; that it was Darla's taking that from him in the first place which was his damnation. So no, it doesn't matter how it started, his soul was absolutely not some leash reigning him in from what he truly wanted or anything like that. In fact, his soul being a torture in the first place could only work *because* he cared so deeply; *because* he was a good person with a strong conscience who wouldn't let himself off the hook for what he had done, whether it had been his choice or not. The Romani would have been crap out of luck if he'd just been a horrible person who didn't give a damn that he had been turned into a sadistic monster. And his entire journey throughout the story is that of him going from someone who cared but was lost in how to turn his guilt into action, to becoming a true champion helping people because not for some ultimate redemption to make himself feel better, but because "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." Spike retained a unique amount of humanity as a soulless being, and it was beautiful to see, but that's no reflection on Angel one way or the other; they were two different people with very different circumstances while soulless, and BOTH came to greatly value their humanity and BOTH grew into true champions for good. There's no need to rewrite Angel's entire journey and the depth of his character just to acknowledge Spike's!
@@stephaniel2850 I respect your reading! There's more than one way to look at the same character, and it is valid to recognize all the qualities that made Angel the champion he became. I believe that, maybe, he was more of an extreme character (having really high moral standards with his soul - and no moral at all without it), his light and his darkness was perhaps less... integrated. That was his uniqueness, and it can be seen as part of his beauty. My reading of his character changed along the years - maybe because of my own insights regarding guilt, morals. But you're not wrong. He did sacrifice his humanity, his chance of happiness and peace, just to keep fighting. There's no denial of his nobility. How we understand and give meaning to his nobility, may vary, though.
Angel is all or nothing whereas Spike enjoys more nuance, shades of grey. It keeps things interesting. They say it best in Angel the show where Spike says how he thought of his time as an evil demon as a party and enjoyed the rush. He likes to be swept up in new experiences which kind of connects to his past as a poet. Angel is always conscious of what he's doing whereas Spike can disconnect from the reality of it all.
Lol is that why Buffy was all over Angel in the series finale of course she was with spike towards the end to help the spuffy fans but ultimately Angel got the last kiss
@@Alejandro333777 Buffy and Angel in S7 has been confirmed by Joss as fan service, literally, to give the vocal minority (his words) hope. Not Spuffy. Spuffy got "help" because according to the majority of fans AND the writers of the show, Spike is Buffy's true love. And I've got news for you: They've been building up toward that since season 4. Since Spike became a regular. It's always been the plan. Spuffy happened naturally. The Bangel kiss they had to force in. If Buffy was all over Angel, then why did she spend the night *cuddling* with another man? Not just "with." You don't cuddle with a friend, mind you. And why did she cool off immediately after the kiss and gave Angel the whole cookie dough speech to say she's not ready to decide who she wants to be with (meaning, it could be any person in the world, including Spike)? Why before heading to the cemetery, before kissing Angel, she was going to tell Spike that maybe after the big fight they could try dating (for it " to mean something")? Why were "I love you" and "Spike" Buffy's last words on the TV show? Why Buffy and Angel never get back together after that, even when given the opportunities? Why did Buffy choose Spike over Angel and started dating Spike in season 10? Why was Spike admittedly the healthiest relationship Buffy's ever been in? And why was it the happiest she's ever been? Why did she move in with Spike, shared a bed with him? Why did she start picturing herself having kids with Spike and growing old with him? Why, after a serious 2-year relationship, Buffy and Spike left the door open to get back together again any time in the future but there was no door to be seen for Buffy and Angel? And why did Angel move on to someone else? See, we as opposed to you don't need hope. We don't need "help." We got the real deal. Enjoy that little moment of fan service, because that's all you got!
Angel seems like some dorky footballer who wandered into a ballet performance. Never really cared at all about him. Spike. He is absolutely everything.
Love the parallels. Seriously, I don't get why some people could hate on Spike. He was the best character in BtVS and I love how this video showed that. ❤️
They hate Spike because, Like Angel, they hate themselves. Even Angel can at least admit that. What does this say of those looking for targets so easily and in denial about why they're angry?
Wow, what a powerful video. I mean, we already knew all this but seeing the parallel scenes side by side like this really drives the point home how different these two are deep down. I especially loved the way you put together all the times Angel got his soul back via getting cursed again and again interspersed with Spike fighting and struggling to get his. Thank you for making this edit, great job!
Both seem a good reflection of the times in which they were born. The mystery, grim and savage middle ages and the bleak yet creative and innovative Victorian era.
I used to think the same but that's not actually the case. Angel is Spike's reflection. He has yet to learn. Spike has learned more. Is stronger for it. Angel is the average person. Weak. Flawed. Pathetic. Spike is stronger. Able to adapt faster. More considerate. I made other comments about the two characters and how they contrast each other. Angel has to be the weaker flawed one or he doesn't contrast Spike. The truth is people see themselves in both characters. For better and for worse. People that fear Spike and reject him don't know love. People that fear Angel know the danger of ignorance. A bleeding heart is not logic. Spike's always been able to go "Right. This is the situation. Let's do something." Some people don't yet understand why this is so important. Being slow to adapt just like Angel. Because they ARE Angel in some ways. Angel at least can admit he's jealous and weak. Even says to spike "How do you adapt so quickly after being turned?" Angel wallows. Stews in his self hate and guilt. What use is that? What purpose does it fuel? None. It's being stuck. Stagnation. Apathy itself. Spike moves forward. He knows how too. He was treated like shit when he was human. So he is kind even when he seeks to destroy. Which is what can stop the destruction. Honesty. At any cost. Angel's still in the doubt/confusion/despair phase. No one's challenged him enough yet. No one's pushed him to break him down yet. Buffy did that with Spike. The results are clear. This does work in real life. Minus the sharp teeth. The irony of it all is that in order for Angel to be a better person he has to be treated like the useless pathetic mess he is and be honest with himself. The worst of himself. Without being pushed away or pushing him. Pay attention to the scene where he pushes Buffy away and back hands her. Even rape is better then that. Being hated. Or wanted. Hate has substance. Can be formed and molded. Hate is actually love in some ways. You can work with it. Shape it. Rejection though? This is what breeds hate. spike's never been one to push others away. He had it happen to himself too much when he was human. This is why Spike can love, and i mean genially love. It's not an emotion. Or a soul. It's not a moral high ground with good intentions. That's not what love is. Love is the worst. The darkest as well as the brightest. The shadow with the light. To quote Dr Who in that one Cyberman episode when there was an emotinless cyberman driven to protect a girl he's with. To quote how and why that emotionless apathetic robot can still have a goal. To quote why those that hurt us will also protect. Love is a promise. Not to another. But to yourself. To be kind and obedient without grudges. Even if there's malice and hate. That is love. To accept and embrace the worst and challenge it. To always strive for honesty and accept whatever is thrown at you. Doesn't mean you have to like it. can even hate it at first. Through such acceptance love falls into place. Spike laughs off the abuse. Plays in the worst of times. That's more important then you might think. Making the best of the worst. Angel simply doesn't know how to do that yet. For reasons I've already stated. Guy could do with playing more. Focused on hunting as the characters are they lose sight of that. Spike taught Buffy. Buffy played with Spike. No one's taught Angel.
Angel was Buffy’s first love. Yes, at first, I thought they were perfect together. However, as the we learned more about Angel’s background…turns out the guy was just a manipulative, selfish ass with a victim complex who dated Buffy who was underaged. When Spike first showed up, he was the Big Bad. All reckless swagger and cheerful violence. Surprisingly, Spike hid a depth far more complex than anyone had ever seen before. Spike was an anomaly. That something without a human soul could be so loyal to a fault was astounding. That he loved Buffy so much to take the abominable abuse from her and the Scoobies, over and over and over was heart-wrenching. For Spike to seek out his human soul on his own…that was the ultimate proof that, wow, this guy’s something else. Wish Spike and Buffy had ended up together in the end…but then we’d be deprived of the tragic but memorable grand finale of season seven. Cheers.
Although I get your point I would say that (souless) Spike's feelings for Buffy were more of an obsession rather than love. He wasn't hoping for goodness and happiness for Buffy, he was very much being a creep; stalking her, waiting outside her house for hours on end just to be nearby to her, stealing items of her clothing and lets not forget his attempted rape of her either. Buffy was in a bad place and took advantage of his obsession, which is also wrong of course but that does not excuse his actions.
@@JDBD13 True. It doesn’t excuse all the wrong (soulless) Spike’s done, however, once Buffy died there was technically no reason for him to stay and take care of Dawn…and yet he did. In his own roundabout demon way, Spike truly loved Buffy and tried to show it as best as he could. As selfish as Spike’s motivations have been, he was still a better creature for trying to redeem himself. Especially in comparison to Angel who selfishly sold his own crew (without their permission) to Wolfram & Hart to save his son, or more notably, Warren who was an absolutely irredeemable bastard who enjoyed murder (his girlfriend, Tara and almost Buffy) and mayhem.
@@rodan9773 Spike committed just as many atrocities as Angelus. The key difference between them was intent. Spike chose to regain his soul, which means he was prepared to atone for all the wrong he'd done. Instead of making excuses, he accepted the horrors he committed and set about trying to atone by doing right. Angel, on the other hand, took the path of denial. His soul was forced on him as a punishment. He would accept that he did terrible things, but he didn't really confront those actions until well into his own show. Spike was able to regain himself more quickly because he wasn't trying to pretend to be something he wasn't.
When you think of it, the Curse that the Gypsies laid on Angelus was truly horrible and unjust. They wanted to punish the Vampire, but instead tortured the man, Angelus didn't suffer, Angel did.
@@GemofAmara Angelus was part of Angel. He admitted that himself. Angelus was one of the worst of vampires, because he wanted to be. That part of him reveled in evil. But as a soulless vampire he'd never feel grief or guilt. He'd never understand what he did to his victims.
it is totally unjust. i just think they both suffered because Angelus had to feel whatever Angel felt. look in Orpheus how angry he was just to see Angels memories. he was locked up thirsty and forced to feel human emotions. that is a terrible punisment for a vampire. but unfortunately the side effects impact the human too much. i was angry when angel was blamed and also when he blamed himself as if he could have done something to help. he wasnt even there when those things happened. he could suffer with PTSD definitely but should not blame himself and other also could understand better ( at least ppl from the field, of course i get that civilians do not understand)
@@danieldickson8591 yes he was part of him in the sense that Angel carries him inside and has his memories. the demon keeps him alive while he feeds him with blood. but they are two different personalities. the only thing they have in common is the body. i see it similar to what star gate shows in goaulds - 2 ppl in the same body while one has a total control and the other just watches the events ( ensouled Angel) while when he is Angelus or Liam there is just one inhabitant. Angel is basically a prison for Angelus and the soul is the guard
I think of it like this. They both were turned into vampires, like boxes containing souls. Upon becoming vamps those boxes were emptied, angels complete and total in its emptiness, but Spike somehow clutching to some remnants of humanity, however small. How else could he love Drusilla so completely? How could he feel heartache after she left him? How could he love Buffy? And even admire her?
I feel bad that the creator meant: "Compared" instead of "Vs". 😬 However, this debate has been ongoing since the show aired: I watched as a 30 y/o back then, and was bored by Angel, especially once they introduced Spike. Spike was so exciting, daring, risky, and FUN. Angel was so broody, boring, self-loathing, and-as Angelus:Cruel. The real comparison is between how *Buffy* had to deal with them. Great video! ✌💗
Angel is a more dangerous vampire then spike, but spike is a better man you could even say spike is a classy gentleman I used to love when he sat and had cuppas with joyce and how much he loved dawn. He loved her and her whole family angel even as a man had a edge to him
Another part where you can find differences between them is when Buffy dies. Spike counted the days, he was really sad...he stayed with Dawn to protect her and he also helped her friends to fight demons. When Buffy died Angel said to Cordelia that he was ok. That loosing Buffy didn't kill him. For me Spike will always be a better character than Angel.
Spuffy is much more real, you see better all aspects of a relationship...bangel is a teenage love, Spuffy is an adult love ... just review and listen to Buffy's dialogue with Angel and Buffy's with Spike
@@paolaserata8310 Very true, lets not forget Buffy was a teenage girl when her & Angel got together making their relationship all kinds of wrong in my opinion lol
Buffy and Angel are toxic relationship and in so many ways and he never really loved her and the proof of this is the fact that when she dies he doesn't even think to come and consoled her sister want to come over and protect her sister or her friends like I said toxic relationship and Buffy is an idiot like most women who are in abusive relationships she doesn't seem to understand that a healthy relationship can only be when you have gotten rid of the toxic from yourself and she refuses to in fact break the bond between her and Angel Which is higher in the past simply because he's the first guy who she ever bunk'd she'd rather be with a memory of a toxic relationship then to live and be happy in a healthy relationship where the person she is with is willing to learn and expand and be there for her Spike was worthy of getting back his soul because he had a soul to get back in a manner of speaking, but Angel never have that and there's the proof that get again Angel is the abuser who enjoys abusing fight starts out as a user not an abuser a user who realizes that he is using and gives up his addiction and becomes a better person for it. I have never understood why Buffy gives angel any place in her heart after he's left it'd be one thing if it was the sweet memory of a first love but it isn't it is a sick unhealthy obsessive an obsession with a person who can never love her the way a person and a healthy relationship is supposed to be loved. Spike is the opposite he knows that the woman he loves will never really be able to love him because he can't leave the pass well enough in the past but he truly loves her because he can accept her as he is he can accept the fact that she never loved him and in a way can never love him because she won't give up the past even in the end when it's obvious that he is going to die to save them all he knows she's lying when she says that she loves him he knows it he can feel it and he still thinks her for the effort because he knows it's a lie and it doesn't matter to him because his love for her is what sustains him, and people don't understand that people don't understand that that is a greater love in fact it's mentioned in the Bible as being what true love is supposed to be true love is supposed to be a love that is not based on a given thing it is supposed to be the idea of that it's not a passion is an understanding that that what you would love that persons wellbeing is far more important than your own and uses the love between Jonathan and King David as an example people try to make it a sexual thing but it is not about sex it is about a true bond between two Souls two brothers can have that kind of love two best friends can have that kind of love and sometimes it can only be one person who has that for another and that's Spike. It's why on more than one occasion she's willing to not just give up his own life he's willing to go in there and save Buffy especially saving her from herself. I've always wondered now that it's been more than 30 years if Buffy has gone off somewhere I thinking that she's now-retired Slayer and that the younger generation can now be do the job and doing so she's made a bigger mess of everything and wouldn't it be interesting if Spike somehow came back and told her that, she would listen to spike because she would know that spot would never lie to her in this regard he is too much in love with her and she knows it to ever hurt her for no reason other than the fact that she should be aware that she's made a mess of things and that she's going to need help cleaning it up.
I am a fan of the Angel TV series. Liam(Angel pre turn) was an absolute asshole. He was a psycho after becoming a vampire. Joss Whedon developed a romantic relationship with Cordelia and Angel that was based on friendship and respect. He destroyed it to punish the actress for getting pregnant. Buffy and Spike developed into a relationship. Spike was a villain, but he had limits. He could feel. Angelus had no limits.
Spike ! As a human he was a victim letting everyone push him around and when he did try to fight back or stand up for himself his efforts was pathetic he was a nobody no one paid attention to him his peers view him as Nothing. So as an Vampire he had the power to fight back and demand attention that's why he then treated life as an party he never look back at the victims cause he never wanted to remind himself of the times he was once a victim Himself ! Angel ! As an human he always tried to prove himself as a man in his father's eye's. He's father look down on him and made him feel inferior to him he was a victim to his father well in a sense he Was. As an Vampire he became greater than a man he developed a god complex in the way his father made him feel inferior to him. Opposed his will on to others and made them feel inferior to himself that's why he never took his eyes off his victims he loved the fear and the position of power that he gained from Them !
It's Spike that's stronger in the end. And, oddly enough, more considerate. Much more so then the average human when they dare to take something at face value. spike might rip your throat out. But only if you target him. Treat him with kindness (but not sympathy. Firm approch works well with him) and he's loyal as they come. He knows the pain too well. Angel never knew that pain. He's still weak. But he yes yet to be pushed to breaking point. So he can't grow yet. Because no one's pushed him down far enough for him to learn to make the best from the worst. The two characters also contrast each other. Angel is the person most people are. Flawed. Weak and wallowing yet not weak enough to learn to be strong yet. Spike is the strong one. Honest. Making no excuses. If people fear him then it's because they fear their own mistakes. Having faced volatile monsters myself (armed people. Suicidal. etc) and always defused those situations, I don't fear this. I don't fear Spike at his worst. Even if he makes me a target. What I do fear is an ignorant fool that doesn't even know what they're doing. Angel in other words. At least spike can know the situation he's in and bounce back quickly. Angel is jealous of this. He wants to do better. Adapt faster like that. But until he learns to stop wallowing and losing himself in the faces of his prey then he's always going to hesitate and stall. Too afraid to embrace the worst. Even when it comes to buffy, who is pushed away when she tries to be there. For all of Spike's flaws he's always been there. For all of Angel's flaws... When push comes to shove who is it that is always there through thick and thin? Who accepts the worst of themselves and others? Then and only then do you know nothing will come between you.
@@taramaforhaikido7272 Yeah I agree to some degree! But I was talking about their lives as humans and their Journey to being a vampire ! Everything your talking about happens after!
in buffy angel was just an empty vessel against spike but in his own show angel became more interesting and deep (especially s5) spike is more funny and angel is more deep
Yea true but angel is f up ! Spike was in love with druillsa and spike love addict! Angel kill his love ones he drink and was a playa! Spike like I wrote love addict with a pink rock attitude!
That scene is amazing. Spike wanted Buffy to kill him because he felt he was too dangerous to live. It was an act of strength for him to die. Angel wanted to die out of weakness. Because it was too hard for him to live.
@@GemofAmara you are biased against angel. he wanted to die because he knew he was too evil as angelus. and as he experienced the manipulation from true evil he was afraid to slip again and loose his soul. he wanted to rather die than to hurt anyone let alone buffy. he was at a low point and that time. but in angel he gad a chance for happily ever after with buffy but knew the world needed him to fight so he gave it up for buffy and for the whole world. he was a true hero. not saying spike wasnt. but he literally gave up his hapiness for the world
Spike kind of laid out the difference in all this in Crush. The chip was like training wheels. He couldn't be his evil self and found there was another way. But even in spite of that, Angel's level of evil goes unmatched.
The last scene 10:28 explains alot of how their characters are, spike did a lot of evil when he was without a soul, but it was never about doing evil it was about the feeling it gave him. Spike simply enjoyed living (technically he wasn’t alive but ykyk), he simply rolled with the punches and killed what and when he wanted, in his words, “never really looking back at the victims”. This is where Angelus differs, he was in it for the evil, for the feeling it gave the victims, in his words, “couldn’t keep my eyes off them”, it was all about them, he was sadistic and cunning, he wanted to ruin lives and create tragic ‘masterpieces’ out of innocents. Simply put, without a soul and morals, spike simply just didn’t give a shit and Angelus gave too much shits💀. Both were evil but in different ways, Angelus let himself be driven by malice, Spike let himself be driven by passion. I love both characters so much, they were both so beautifully written with lots of depth. Truly very different from eachother but alike in many ways. I like that their characters were written for THEM, instead of just for the plot of fighting over the the female protagonist (cough cough twilight). While Buffy did play a pivotal roll in their character growth, still it was never about who was better for her or who won her, it was about how they changed because of her. Both had great character archs and i believe they can both be appreciated. (spuffy forever tho🗣)
I just rewatched the series all the way through for the 3rd time. The first time I was only 13 and it was the true love of Bangel all the way for me. Now as an adult I fully believe Spike is better for Buffy (i've never read any of the comics but I've heard abt some parts) Side note: Maybe Liam had the potential to be a good man, but being sired at that point left him permanently in that state
when i was 11 i liked the story between buffy and angel, but i immediately loved spike and from the fourth season i just forgot angel.. now reviewing all 7 seasons, i have found angel boring, selfish, narcissistic, i don't like him at all. ..Spike, well, I love him even more and Spuffy is really the only real couple for me, a love that lasts a lifetime
@@ninjanibba4259 because i didn't like the show in general ... i like few characters like Fred, Cordelia and Wesley but otherwise i was bored watching it except only the comparisons he had with Spike in the fifth season, I found them interesting to better understand the relationship between the two
angel didn’t have to work for his redemption at all it was just thrusted upon him as a “curse” while spike worked for his. no one forced him he wanted to be a good man even tho with his soul he wasn’t even that bad a man. thats more meaningful to me and why spike is a more interesting character than angel. i know he gets developed in his own series but he is still in my opinion not up to spike level
Spike was always better than Angel, in any form. Angel (Liam) as human was not a good guy to begin with and as Angelus was completely evil, no good in him at all. As Angel he was never willing to confront his darkness, he just complained all the time and gave up or ran away. Spike as evil as he was, still showed his compassion to others, not all the time but he did show it. He confronted his darkness, over and over. When he loved he didn't let anything get in the way of it or feel wrong about it, he just loved. Angel was just a cry baby all the time. Spike was better in his darkness than Angel was as the "good guy". I never thought Angel really loved Buffy. Spike was all in with her though, no matter what.
I love the fact I saw angle before buffy and spike was in 1 episode in the first season and I loved him from day one and was hoping to see him again then I saw buffy and am so happy spike was in it so much
Even now he could still have one - and they already have a built in "reason" why he appears older: Unlike Angelus (there IS no "Angel") Spike's soul, is not curse-driven. As such he ages, like any other. What would REALLY rock..? is if they went a similar route as Old Man Logan - Spike's time is running out, and before it does..? He's determined to do Good (do note the caps!) one last time. (They could then save him by having Buffy feed him her blood w/the subsequent Happily ever after bit...) My thoughts (and hopes) anyway... Cheers, my friend! 🍻😎
Snapper for real though, Angel was trying to kill himself, and wanted her to leave. Not saying hitting her wasn’t wrong but it’s a VERY different situation. Plus Angel may be worse without his soul, but at least Bangel was built on an emotional bond/love and not random sex and abuse
James Green Their physical relationship was always violent. Spikes motivation was that if they could just “do it” once more, he would convince Buffy that she did love him. He became enraged when she fought him off - but all along we know she’s the stronger one (despite her injury). The situation was based on a true story with the genders reversed - one of the writers tried getting her ex back the same way but he rebuffed her. Obviously she wasn’t violent like Spike was & let’s face it he was still a soulless vampire. He was still “a very bad man”.
I like spike. His character was great, but Angel had such desire not to be evil again it made him the hero he was. His regret and remorse was easily seen. I adore Angel
@@anatoldenevers237 he didn’t get over it. Spike still feels guilt and remorse for his past actions but he chooses to focus on being a better person in the present rather than wallow in his guilt.
@@anatoldenevers237 I’ve always found Spike to be a far more interesting and dynamic character overall. Don’t get me wrong I think both characters are great in their own ways. They both have their strengths and their flaws but Spike has always had that extra bit of charisma to him that you rarely see in Angel.
@@hellspawnvicious9990 they’re very different. Honestly I think giving Spike a soul was a mistake, he was an amazing villain. And Angelus is my favorite villain. He’s easily the most evil character in the Buffyverse.
spike is better then angel in everyway spike got his soul cause he wanted too angel it was forced on him angel with a soul had sex with a kid and stalked her spike without a soul tried to rape Buffy but felt it was very wrong then seeked a soul them little things prove alot right there angel ain't shit
I think you're misremembering dude, Spike's goal was to get rid of his chip to stop being in love with Buffy, he didn't know he was getting his soul back
I would encourage you to rewatch those scenes. Spike never actually says what he wants from the demon. Not on screen anyway. The dialogue is intentionally vague as a form of misdirection. The writers wanted the audience to be surprised. It’s clearly stated in season seven that getting his soul was his goal.
People keep forgetting spike had a chip in his head for years that made it impossible for him to hurt humans. That with his stalker obsession with Buffy made him get a soul. If it wasn't for that Chip he would have remain evil killing people.
I see Angel has the person that is still flawed. Always pushing away and knowing how weak they are. They even admit this. I see Spike as the person that seeks to improve at any cost. Even if it costs them everything. Even though Angel is the laughing stock, what's important to realise is that in all likelihood that's the average person. Still flawed. Still weak. Still not knowing how to do better. Without Angel then Spike wouldn't have contrast. Remove one and the other falls apart. They're both reflecting each other. Spike is better at it because, simply put, he's not deluded with good intentions and moral high grounds. He's just honest. Angel on the other hand is seeking to become a "monster" to escape the "man" he is. But these things are just labels. You'll never come to terms with yourself if you reject yourself. Angel hates himself. Spike doesn't. Angel couldn't accept amd embrace Buffy because of this. He pushed Buffy away because he pushes himself away. Spike on the other hand will challenge you and hold on tight. If the world is going to burn, burn with those that face you. Or smolder alone. For all of Spike's flaws he's a very loving and considerate person. Much more logical then many others would be as well.
Angel got better in his own show. Spike got better when he returned and became a regular. Overall tho, Spike was better. His relationship with Buffy was more even rather than just Buffy going after Angel when he didn't really do that much for her, bar looking brooding
You’re wrong Angel gave up his happiness and buffys happiness Angel was selfless because he realized that buffy could never be happy with a vampire matter of fact come to think of it Giles had the same revelation. Angel realizes the bigger picture where spike ultimately didn’t
@@PsychologyWizard Think that's the worst thing that can happen? Please. Spike sacrificed himself for Buffy. Went through hell and back. Endured pain and suffering like few will ever know. With kindness. Without reward. Spike knows means and intends what he does. He makes no excuses for it. You can trust in that. I trust in it. Buffy does. Angel, he knows not what he does. Too "nice". Are so fragile that you would rather make Spike a target and change the topic when the world is full of people that will speak for others as if you're not even in control? Spike also says "Kill me" to Buffy. He'd rather die then kill her. Except when he went to kill her with the shotgun. But he needed the honesty. The answers. That's what connects them. That's what binds them. Angel on the other hand backhands buffy. As bad as rape may be, rejection is always worse. It's to be seen as a freak. Like you're not worth the hate. You're not worth anytihng. You're not worth the attention, not worth killing. The worst thing anyone can ever do is not make you a target at all. Because at that point you're not even worth anything. Which is exactly why Angel and Buffy could have done with fighting more. You want a perfeclt flawless healthy world? It doesn't exist mate. If you never been through hard times then you never challenged each other. If love isn't a train wreck that's struggled to stay on the rails then it's not worthy of the name.
William (Spike) was always a MUCH better person than Liam (Angel) ever was. The only reason Angel is as "good" as he is with a soul is because the gypsies added a conscience to him when they gave his soul back. Liam didn't seem to have much of a conscience, even as a human. It was completely impossible for soulless Angel to fall in love. Spike managed it quite well, as did another vampire on the Angel series. Oddly enough, his name was William, and he was in love with Elizabeth (also a vampire). "Buffy" is sometimes a nickname for Elizabeth.
gypsies did not "add" conscience. they simply returned the soul back to its original body. liam DID have conscience. he wasnt evil just a spoilt brat. he was rich, he didnt feel any responsibility so he just drank alcohol and enjoyed women. as long as everyone was consenting he didnt need to feel any guilt at that point he was just enjoying himself but was good at heart. he was wasting his life yes but wasnt causing any harm. we can see it in flashbacks and in angel episode spin the bottle. he was horryfied when told for the first time he killed someone. in spill the bottle he says he roots for the slaves which is kind of advanced for someone who died in 1753. when he got the soul back it was an eye opener for him.and he changed for the better eventually in the sense that he wasnt wasting his life anymore and did his best to make the world a better place
@@vladimiramatejova1796 but Angel is not Liam. He just has his body and memories but he is a demon inhabiting Liams body. When he got the soul, he stoped being essentially evil, he could easily feel guilt and remorse as human beings do, but he was still a demon. Liam as a person died in 1753
@@drevenypribor6144 this is interesting. where do you get this from? i am curious if we have some data to back this up. 1)Angel explains he got his soul BACK indicating this is the soul tht was previously in his body 2) in the haloween costume episode buffy says she wanted to dress like girls from the era when angel was alive. he says he despised those girls. the interaction indicates he is the same person as before he was turned 3) what soul does he have then? some random guy who had nothing at all with all the sh++? would that be weird an even more unfair? 4) i think him getting his soul back is his second chance as he had the potential but was wasting his life. it is kind of beautiful that he got an opportunity to be a hero instead of that drunkard with the prospects of becoming human again after he is finished with the punishment 5) if it is not him how come it is always the same soul getting back to its body when he looses it and then gets it back again? 6) in amends he tries to excuse his drinking behaviour in front of the first evil saying I was young I didnt have time to / die of syphilis- the evil finishes/. he is talking about his behaviour as Liam. 7) he talks about "me" when meaning Liam or Angel and as "him" meaning Angelus although sometime says also "me" when indicating Angelus. but there are two different persons that was mentined several times
James Marsters has such a raw sensuality about him. I NEVER tire of scenes where he's fighting shirtless and sweaty!
He's still bloody gorgeous
I AGREE 🔥
And he's nearing 40 here and he looks 10-15 years younger
This series came out when I was eleven years old and ended when I was 17. I am watching the reruns and I have to say I am getting hooked onto the storylines (mainly Buffy and Spike). Can I also say I am starting to get a serious thing for James Marsters even though he was in between his late thirties and early forties when he was playing Spike in Buffy and the spin-off Angel?
They never did a Good Spike meets bad spike episode. Angel and Angelus always fight. Spike and spike would go to a strip bar and hit on twins.
lol
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Angel and Angelus are two different people.
yes that is because spike human was just a shy poet and spike vamp was not evil enough he just wanted to impress angelus and dru. so basically two characters- one good, one evil but both too close to the neutral point. ensouled spike was just done with all the shit. while Angelus was a psycho chaotic evil and Angel mostly lawful good so very oposite personalities
after raiding Angels wallet for spare change and stealing his best car!
The truest hero in all this is Spikes English accent. The villain is Angels shocking excuse for an Irish one.
Great comment and so true! Angels Irish accent is shocking 😆😱
Putting an Irish actor in the first season of Angel (Doyle) demonstrates just how bad Angels attempt at an Irish accent was.
🤣🤣🤣
Emm not all English sound like that and not all Irish people sound like that but i have heard both version on people from each land.
My own and Irland.
tbf as a British person you can tell he's putting on the accent he's pretty good at it though, But it does give you that Victorian cockney accent which works very well with his character.
Spike was a mama’s boy, even as a vampire he didn’t want to see his mother sick.
I love them both .
Spike was good man before he became a vampire, and some of it stuck. Liam/Anglel wasn't a goo person at any point.
@@martineshamzin7535 William was a loser, everyone treated him badly then when he turned vamp then he had power and just said screw how I was before
That’s why spike loved hanging out with Buffy’s mom with a cup of tea.
spike was weak as a human and craved attention. liam was enjoying alcohol and women but wasnt evil. just a spoilt brat not respecting authorities. that is what they both took to their afterlifes. angelus being a spoilt brat but this time evil. spike was a weak vampire in the sense that he was leaning to humanity ( weak from a vampire point of view) and wanted dru's and angelus' s attention just like his human persona
Spike was made from a man of artistic inspiration, angel was made from a drunk. I always wondered if those beginnings were what helped shaped them as vampires?
definitely! it is hinted in the show. liam was a hedonistic man enjoying women and alcohol , disrespecting authorities, but wasnt evil. he was just a spoilt brat. chaotic good (he was devastated to hear he actually killed someone and spent years figuring out what to do with the guilt - and still has isdues) . see how he turned to be a chaotic evil enjoying blood women and torture as some twisted party. he disrespected the vampire master such as liam disrespected his father. spike was a romantic misunderstood artist and it turned him to a vampire with a tendency towards humanity and love. he would kill yes but he didnt enjoy it as much as angel. he was craving for attention from dru and angel just like when he was human and seeking attention from the audience. in the episode when vampire willow from alternate universe comes to real sunnydale willow wonders if she has something in common with her vampire equivalent. giles comforts her saying vampire personality has nothing in common with the human and then Angel joins in and says:Well actually...then he stops himself as others look at him and he realises he doesnt want to share as it would mean to admit he was a spoilt brat as a human and he didnt want to embarass himself. so he continues yes you are right, nothing in common.
@@vladimiramatejova1796 I think Angel/Liam as a human was chaotic neutral more than chaotic good.
@@summerjoy1352 could be. we dont see much of him. for sure he loved his sister and he wanted to be good but we dont see him actually do much
Liam wasn't just a drunk. He was an angry young man with a desire to get out from underneath his father's house and see the world. Yet at the same time, he wanted to prove himself to his father. His 'evil' was a result of his insecurity and his need to be more than a rich mans slothful son. So every time he kills, assaults, tortures, he considers it a victory. Not for the demon. But for the man that still hunts his memories.
It's right there in the show. "All that we are, informs all that we become."
Angel without a soul evil. Spike without a soul is the same person, he’ll just go back and win it again like it’s no big deal.
Angel makes more sense - vampires shouldnt care about winning souls or being good
That's what makes Spike special.
Wait a minute now lets not pretend like Spike wasn't Evil ! He wasn't as pure evil as Angel but he was still evil none the less in beginning he killed 3 slayers and tried to kill buffy many times he only became good cause of that chip in his Head he couldn't harm humans so consider this fact humans are an Vampire prey if they can't react to their nature then how can they live on? It's like taking a lion out of the wild and into the zoo he lost his ability and knowledge of hunting that's why when you look in their eyes you always see a form of sadness well that is what happened to spike he fail in love with Buffy and that's the only thing that kept him moving and that is the only reason why he wanted to continue living and that's why he became moral cause mentally he had no other choice ! Now don't get me wrong his love for Buffy became genuine but if it wasn't for that he probably would have killed himself eventually
Aw Yeah and that’s why spike is so amazing he defeats the stereotype
@@e-magicgodofdeath5428 he was evil yes, but because he was turned to an evil person, in the new season of the comics spike lost his soul again but he didnt turn evil this time because he was done with evil he was still spike and he tried to give his soul to drussila but she was too damged and she coudn't handle it so he took it back afterwards
SPIKE is my favourite character of the serie ! So Dangerous, funny, sensual, sexy, emotional and protective, really in love with Buffy and of course I like his look, his hair, smile
I've watched buffy since I was a child I'm 22 now. Rewatching it as a kid (preteen before I understood all of it) I preferred Angel
Now that I'm older I prefer Spike
Part of me will still always love Angel
But spike loved Buffy without a soul
Angel tortured her when he didn't have one
@Micheal Henry that's what I meant lol
@@mirandahunt2688 have you watched season 2??
Fuck spike the rapist
Angel is that teen romantic fantasy hero, whereas Spike is the messier less than perfect but far more mature and real relationship. You can sort see that in how story progresses. The relationship between Angel and Buffy is by nature less than physical, an innocent one, that at the moment they try to take it a step further they destroy it beyond repair. While the relationship she has with Spike, opponent, confidant, lover, to finally love interest is far more nuanced and isn't limited by anything except what they themselves want.
I think for the writers they realized that they could only take the relationship with Angel so far as the characters grew older. He was perfect during those early teen seasons as a romantic lead, exactly because the curse on his soul set a limit on any real relationship developing, and made him this perfect ideal teen romantic and tragic shining knight in armor figure. But at the same time it made it impossible for them to actually make the relationship real, without destroying everything that Angel was as a character. So in the end the characters had to move on. They tried various other relationship leads with Buffy, which clearly didn't work, and in the end the one that developed was Spike.
Often good writers will tell you that characters seem to have a will of their own. This show had excellent writers, and I'm not surprised that they allowed the story and relationships to evolve where the characters seemed to naturally go.
Alejandro333777 pretty sure Spike and Angelus were both serial rapists
I always loved spike, because when angel was with buffy he barely had a character, but spike had a real character, and a drive, and a real reason for loving buffy.
Jackery Angel was WAY better on his own show than on Buffy
angel didnt get enough space in buffy. in his own show was much better. still prefer him with buffy and spike with dru
Spike wanted buffy because angel banged Drusilla Infront of spike after he was turned. Check season 5 angel. Angel banged Dru after spike was turned and he seen it as it happen
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@Vladimira Matejova
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@@damienlee2424 as someone said long ago, Angel got his soul back as a punishment, Spike got his as a reward. He fought for it, he earned it.
In my opinion, Angel is hopelessly evil without his soul and simply boring with it. Spike is great with and without his soul. That's why I love him.
Angel’s dull as a table lamp. 😁 I actually really love Angel on AtS, but on BtVS he was painfully boring.
aloe vera same dude
@claireiceThe difference I see is Angel on AtS interacted with people. On Buffy, he was just anchored to one person. Spike interacted with more people on the series . Even as a villain, Spike wasn't an island.
You have got a great point!
Gem of Amara I liked Angel on both, but I agree he was better on his own show
As a human, Spike was only weak in the sense that he was risk-averse and afraid to step outside societal boundaries. He obviously had the capacity for love and passion as evidenced by his love for his mother and Cecily. And those traits carried over when he was sired which is why he turned his mother and why he was also able to kill her. It's just that, after his human death, he realized boundaries are meaningless and lived passionately to the extreme. Spike wears his heart on his sleeve. I think it was this and his ability to see through people that gave him the edge over the two slayers he killed and also the reason he could reach through to Buffy when no one else could. It's also why he could so confidently proclaim his love for Buffy even after all that he did to her prior and despite her rejections and others' ridicule.
1:39 Now I see WHY Buffy treated soulless Spike like shit because she was treated the same way by soulless Angel before and therefore couldn't trust Spike! :D Makes me wonder how things turned out if a "soulless in love with Buffy" Spike and Buffy the Virgen would have had sex? :D
Thats true people base things on their first real relationship however, Angel was redeemed his humanity only to wish the day back,so Buffy would be at risk. They restarted the day and nobody but Angel would know what he could have had but cant because of Buffy's calling. If he stayed human,she would have died because he no longer was immortal. Now he has to know what he could had but as he said he shall never be.
The moment spike went "Kill me" that was when it was clear he'd rather die then kill Buffy.
It has Manchester United, dog racing and billions of people walking around like happy meals with legs
Such a great line.
Yeah how dumb was Angel looking at Acathla, delighted all living things would be destroyed... setting fire to the only grocery shop in town. No. More. Food. Duh.
If spike watched Manchester United now he probably wouldn’t have helped save the world
@@sym8774 Because they're leading the Premiere League? That'd be weird.
@@GermanLeftist lol I said this before
Angel's soul was thrust upon him. Spike went and got his soul back because he loved Buffy that much.
And therein lies the difference. Angel, after he lost his soul, tried relentlessly to torture Buffy, always trying to come up with new and better ways to do that. Spike, soulless, fell in love with Buffy, and in that love, went through horrible trials to win his soul back. He loved her better and more deeply with a soul!
@@rlenz2525 Plus he helped raise Dawn because he had a brotherly love for her, and to honor Buffy.
@@rlenz2525 i guess the fact that Spike tried to rape her was not important... The vampire didn't love her, just wanted to possess her.
Spike loved his mom. He wanted to change her into a vampire because he loved her to much to leave her behind. He loved Buffy enough to fight for his soul because she told him she couldn't be with him because he has no soul. How is that even possible without a soul? How was he able to love is Mother and Buffy without a soul?
The whole thing with his mom also explains why Spike doesn't have any issues killing other vampires or monsters, he already crossed that threshold as his first act as a vampire other than turning her in the first place. Spike is a bit of an anomaly as a vampire in the Buffyverse. I think that's why Drusilla was so interested in him in the first place, he's special.
Because his essence is in his bad poetry not his soul. He was always passionate
I suspect that Spike became a vampire anomaly because of the interesting conditions that were present when he was turned. Drusilla was already special since she had the Sight and William was a pure soul (idealistic and a virgin) when she bit him. Spike retained most of his humanity and wasn’t remotely as evil as the rest of his vampire family.
Positive personality traits don't leave with the soul, they're always there but no longer given expression when the soul leaves. At the same time, the negative traits were suppressed are allowed to surface, and amplified by the demon that replaces the soul to animate the body. William was pure love, vs Liam who was already a totally amoral person before becoming a vampire. "All that we are, informs all that we become."
Spike was a more fleshed out character
Certainly on Buffy, but Angel gets some fantastic character development on AtS.
@@GemofAmara Yes and no. Yeah, he goes through a lot of character development but due to the nature of the show revolving around his attempts to redeem himself, he always has to suffer setbacks and revert back to the brooding loner he was on Buffy at least once in awhile. Angel is certainly a redemption arc done wrong while Spike is a redemption arc done right. Interestingly enough, Angel is one of those wrong redemption arcs that aren't bad because they make too easy for the character to be redeemed but because they make it too hard to the point that it becomes virtually impossible for the character to be redeemed.
@@GermanLeftist it was never about the end goal of redemption on Angel, it was always about fighting on even when there's no more chance of redemption. Angel even signs away his chance for humanity to hurt Wolfram & Hart even though it would not defeat them. Angel without a soul is pure evil incapable of love. He tells Darla that all he ever felt with her was perfect despair. Spike however was not capable of love either, just positive emotions that emulate love. he even admits it to Buffy in the penultimate episode of BTVS. True love is selfless and would never attempt to rape someone to fullfill their self gratification.
I hated the way Buffy treated Spike.
I love Buffy with Spike, but I agree. She was very unkind.
@@babymaude8469 he tried to kill her three times. When he got a soul she changed the way she treated him
@@sym8774 also he was a complete villain before. I think she treated him bad because she resented how she was doing things she would never had done such as sleeping with spike to cope with her downward spiral.
@@whitedragoness23 what upset me is when spike said no u don’t and he thinks he’s not gonna good enough for her when we know that’s not true. I wish they resolved this
Her abuse of him was really really bad, and skipped right past by the show and the fandom
Spike. He went out of his way to gain a soul. Angel simply was cursed.
natalie argote Angel gave up his chance to be human, to have a full relationship with Buffy, because he knew it had to be done. I think that's harder than what Spike did.
But when Angel was allowed to finally be happy and experienced true love with Buffy. He took the curse back. He was only one to remember this along with Doyle who dies anyway. Buffy even wouldn't remember.
When spike got a double he sat in the basement for two weeks and he was redeemed. Angel spends 200+ redeeming himself.
@@mirandagenevievehunt9398 he still aiming to redeem himself
Yeah he went out his way to get a soul, I'll give him that. However, the reason was not a honest one a hero choice.
Angel always makes the hardest decision and though cursed, he owned up to it to be a hero. He could've stay human at one point, marry Buffy and just live a normal life BUT HE KNEW! He knew that would be selfish, so he had the powers that be rewind time so that he can still fight even though it means he will be a vampire with a soul again and he couldn't be with Buffy. He gave up his happiness because the world needed them both.
I always thought it was strange how closely related the vampires human names were. Angelus was "Liam" as human and Spike was named "William". "Liam is another form of William. I'd almost say they were two sides of the same coin.
yes wiliam is such a vampire name. there is also bill compton from true blood 🤣
A Spike's spin-off should've been made.
It was considered, back in the day. I believe the notion was to do a 10 episode series with Spike, but they dropped the idea. He got his own comic book, at least, so there's that.
The Chronicles of William The Bloody
“Spike” would be a way better show than “Angel”
I did enjoy Angel, but the best year was the one where Spike was brought back from the dead. And, according to James Marsters, a fifth year was iffy, so TPTB wanted to add Spike!!!
They all played pretty complex characters. Faith, Angel, Anya, Willow, Fred, Drusilla, Darla and Spike. Seriously, love what Joss did with the series. So many complicated dynamics. The only issue I had when Spike saying Angelus was his yoda. When in most of the flashbacks they didn’t even like each other and Angel couldn’t control him. Lol
Some of the best characters ever written. 👏 ❤
When Spike was initially conceived he was intended to die mid-season, so in School Hard he refers to Angel as his sire and his Yoda, and pronounces his name wrong. lol They retconned that later and Joss explained Spike calling Angelus his sire by saying that any vampire in the line is considered a sire, but that's the only time sire is used in that way. It's just because Spike was meant to be temporary, but it's always disorienting to hear on rewatch.
Spike, only Spike!
Marsters is a professional actor first of all. He is perfect. David is an amator.
Angel wasn't actually a "good person". He was just guilt driven, trying to find redemption for the things he had done. It also says about how he got his soul: as a curse, a punishment. He didn't love life, he didn't love the world, he was just trying to stop his own pain. Spike, on the other hand, wasn't driven (just) by guilt: he was actually driven by love. He loved life, loved the world - which he tried to save, even before the chip. He actually cared for Buffy - and not for the "pure/innocent" teenager, he cared for her as a complex woman, facing her scariest moments. That's why he fought to get his soul back - he wanted to feel more, to be whole. In his soulless version, he wanted to embrace (the after)life in it's pure intensity, as Angel just wanted to destroy it all. Angel's soul was a leash, preventing him from acting like he trully wanted if his guilt's
pain didn't stop him. Spike's soul was part of what set him free.
While I adore Spike too, I will never be able to get behind this reading of Angel.
Sure, Angel's getting his soul back in the first place was a curse meant to torture him, but it was shown over and over again that he DID actively choose to be a good person, and that that was never a matter of the curse forcing him to be so. He had no control over losing his soul, nor over the degree of humanity he could retain after doing so (in his case, it was none). But time and time again in the story, when he DOES have a choice, we see him make the ones that result in the most good, even if it means giving up happiness for himself. And he expresses outright to Darla that, regardless of how he got it back, he very much considers having a soul and humanity a gift; that it was Darla's taking that from him in the first place which was his damnation.
So no, it doesn't matter how it started, his soul was absolutely not some leash reigning him in from what he truly wanted or anything like that. In fact, his soul being a torture in the first place could only work *because* he cared so deeply; *because* he was a good person with a strong conscience who wouldn't let himself off the hook for what he had done, whether it had been his choice or not. The Romani would have been crap out of luck if he'd just been a horrible person who didn't give a damn that he had been turned into a sadistic monster. And his entire journey throughout the story is that of him going from someone who cared but was lost in how to turn his guilt into action, to becoming a true champion helping people because not for some ultimate redemption to make himself feel better, but because "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
Spike retained a unique amount of humanity as a soulless being, and it was beautiful to see, but that's no reflection on Angel one way or the other; they were two different people with very different circumstances while soulless, and BOTH came to greatly value their humanity and BOTH grew into true champions for good. There's no need to rewrite Angel's entire journey and the depth of his character just to acknowledge Spike's!
@@stephaniel2850 I respect your reading! There's more than one way to look at the same character, and it is valid to recognize all the qualities that made Angel the champion he became. I believe that, maybe, he was more of an extreme character (having really high moral standards with his soul - and no moral at all without it), his light and his darkness was perhaps less... integrated. That was his uniqueness, and it can be seen as part of his beauty. My reading of his character changed along the years - maybe because of my own insights regarding guilt, morals. But you're not wrong. He did sacrifice his humanity, his chance of happiness and peace,
just to keep fighting. There's no denial of his nobility. How we understand and give meaning to his nobility, may vary, though.
This comment sums up both characters perfectly
Angel is all or nothing whereas Spike enjoys more nuance, shades of grey. It keeps things interesting. They say it best in Angel the show where Spike says how he thought of his time as an evil demon as a party and enjoyed the rush. He likes to be swept up in new experiences which kind of connects to his past as a poet. Angel is always conscious of what he's doing whereas Spike can disconnect from the reality of it all.
well said 👏
Angel is the first Buffy's love when she was young. Spike is the last Buffy's love, stronger because they are adults. Spike is the best !
Lol is that why Buffy was all over Angel in the series finale of course she was with spike towards the end to help the spuffy fans but ultimately Angel got the last kiss
Alejandro333777 I just can't like Spuffy, and believe me I tried
@@Alejandro333777 Buffy and Angel in S7 has been confirmed by Joss as fan service, literally, to give the vocal minority (his words) hope. Not Spuffy.
Spuffy got "help" because according to the majority of fans AND the writers of the show, Spike is Buffy's true love. And I've got news for you: They've been building up toward that since season 4. Since Spike became a regular. It's always been the plan.
Spuffy happened naturally. The Bangel kiss they had to force in.
If Buffy was all over Angel, then why did she spend the night *cuddling* with another man? Not just "with." You don't cuddle with a friend, mind you. And why did she cool off immediately after the kiss and gave Angel the whole cookie dough speech to say she's not ready to decide who she wants to be with (meaning, it could be any person in the world, including Spike)? Why before heading to the cemetery, before kissing Angel, she was going to tell Spike that maybe after the big fight they could try dating (for it " to mean something")? Why were "I love you" and "Spike" Buffy's last words on the TV show?
Why Buffy and Angel never get back together after that, even when given the opportunities? Why did Buffy choose Spike over Angel and started dating Spike in season 10? Why was Spike admittedly the healthiest relationship Buffy's ever been in? And why was it the happiest she's ever been? Why did she move in with Spike, shared a bed with him? Why did she start picturing herself having kids with Spike and growing old with him? Why, after a serious 2-year relationship, Buffy and Spike left the door open to get back together again any time in the future but there was no door to be seen for Buffy and Angel? And why did Angel move on to someone else?
See, we as opposed to you don't need hope. We don't need "help." We got the real deal.
Enjoy that little moment of fan service, because that's all you got!
@@moonystic9417 you are so far up spike's ass it's embarassing as hell, my god.
@@anouar3194 Better than being up Angel's boring ass, that's for sure... Talk about embarrassing...
Angel seems like some dorky footballer who wandered into a ballet performance. Never really cared at all about him. Spike. He is absolutely everything.
Love the parallels. Seriously, I don't get why some people could hate on Spike. He was the best character in BtVS and I love how this video showed that. ❤️
i loved him more as the villain. but he was hilarious in Angel season 5
They hate Spike because, Like Angel, they hate themselves.
Even Angel can at least admit that. What does this say of those looking for targets so easily and in denial about why they're angry?
Wow, what a powerful video. I mean, we already knew all this but seeing the parallel scenes side by side like this really drives the point home how different these two are deep down. I especially loved the way you put together all the times Angel got his soul back via getting cursed again and again interspersed with Spike fighting and struggling to get his. Thank you for making this edit, great job!
Both seem a good reflection of the times in which they were born. The mystery, grim and savage middle ages and the bleak yet creative and innovative Victorian era.
Angel was just form the 18 century (not the middle age), it was almost already like a "modern area" ^^
Angel wasn't from the Middle Ages 😂
Angel is black or white, Spike is grey.
That's... actually a perfect summation.
I used to think the same but that's not actually the case.
Angel is Spike's reflection. He has yet to learn. Spike has learned more. Is stronger for it. Angel is the average person. Weak. Flawed. Pathetic. Spike is stronger. Able to adapt faster. More considerate. I made other comments about the two characters and how they contrast each other. Angel has to be the weaker flawed one or he doesn't contrast Spike.
The truth is people see themselves in both characters. For better and for worse. People that fear Spike and reject him don't know love. People that fear Angel know the danger of ignorance. A bleeding heart is not logic. Spike's always been able to go "Right. This is the situation. Let's do something." Some people don't yet understand why this is so important. Being slow to adapt just like Angel. Because they ARE Angel in some ways.
Angel at least can admit he's jealous and weak. Even says to spike "How do you adapt so quickly after being turned?" Angel wallows. Stews in his self hate and guilt. What use is that? What purpose does it fuel? None. It's being stuck. Stagnation. Apathy itself. Spike moves forward. He knows how too. He was treated like shit when he was human. So he is kind even when he seeks to destroy. Which is what can stop the destruction. Honesty. At any cost. Angel's still in the doubt/confusion/despair phase. No one's challenged him enough yet. No one's pushed him to break him down yet. Buffy did that with Spike. The results are clear. This does work in real life. Minus the sharp teeth. The irony of it all is that in order for Angel to be a better person he has to be treated like the useless pathetic mess he is and be honest with himself. The worst of himself. Without being pushed away or pushing him. Pay attention to the scene where he pushes Buffy away and back hands her. Even rape is better then that. Being hated. Or wanted. Hate has substance. Can be formed and molded. Hate is actually love in some ways. You can work with it. Shape it.
Rejection though? This is what breeds hate. spike's never been one to push others away. He had it happen to himself too much when he was human. This is why Spike can love, and i mean genially love. It's not an emotion. Or a soul. It's not a moral high ground with good intentions. That's not what love is. Love is the worst. The darkest as well as the brightest. The shadow with the light.
To quote Dr Who in that one Cyberman episode when there was an emotinless cyberman driven to protect a girl he's with. To quote how and why that emotionless apathetic robot can still have a goal. To quote why those that hurt us will also protect.
Love is a promise. Not to another. But to yourself. To be kind and obedient without grudges. Even if there's malice and hate. That is love. To accept and embrace the worst and challenge it. To always strive for honesty and accept whatever is thrown at you. Doesn't mean you have to like it. can even hate it at first. Through such acceptance love falls into place. Spike laughs off the abuse. Plays in the worst of times. That's more important then you might think. Making the best of the worst.
Angel simply doesn't know how to do that yet. For reasons I've already stated. Guy could do with playing more. Focused on hunting as the characters are they lose sight of that. Spike taught Buffy. Buffy played with Spike. No one's taught Angel.
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Angel was Buffy’s first love. Yes, at first, I thought they were perfect together. However, as the we learned more about Angel’s background…turns out the guy was just a manipulative, selfish ass with a victim complex who dated Buffy who was underaged. When Spike first showed up, he was the Big Bad. All reckless swagger and cheerful violence. Surprisingly, Spike hid a depth far more complex than anyone had ever seen before. Spike was an anomaly. That something without a human soul could be so loyal to a fault was astounding. That he loved Buffy so much to take the abominable abuse from her and the Scoobies, over and over and over was heart-wrenching. For Spike to seek out his human soul on his own…that was the ultimate proof that, wow, this guy’s something else. Wish Spike and Buffy had ended up together in the end…but then we’d be deprived of the tragic but memorable grand finale of season seven. Cheers.
Although I get your point I would say that (souless) Spike's feelings for Buffy were more of an obsession rather than love. He wasn't hoping for goodness and happiness for Buffy, he was very much being a creep; stalking her, waiting outside her house for hours on end just to be nearby to her, stealing items of her clothing and lets not forget his attempted rape of her either. Buffy was in a bad place and took advantage of his obsession, which is also wrong of course but that does not excuse his actions.
@@JDBD13 True. It doesn’t excuse all the wrong (soulless) Spike’s done, however, once Buffy died there was technically no reason for him to stay and take care of Dawn…and yet he did. In his own roundabout demon way, Spike truly loved Buffy and tried to show it as best as he could. As selfish as Spike’s motivations have been, he was still a better creature for trying to redeem himself. Especially in comparison to Angel who selfishly sold his own crew (without their permission) to Wolfram & Hart to save his son, or more notably, Warren who was an absolutely irredeemable bastard who enjoyed murder (his girlfriend, Tara and almost Buffy) and mayhem.
@ JDBD
Well to be fair angelus was a serial rapist.
Yep lets not forget that when Angel got with Buffy she was still in High School which would put Angel on some kind of register.
Even without his soul, Spike is the better man
Raeanne Bedard yes but angelus is a better vampire
Alec Powers true, as a villain he is much better
@@fangchick93 no angelus is much worse
Flyguy182 he’s at least a badass, and he’s willing to manipulate to get his way
Yup
Spike even as a Human was more moral then Angel
Not really he just did not have the same impact on getting his soul back as Angel did so less emotional baggage.
@@rodan9773 Spike committed just as many atrocities as Angelus. The key difference between them was intent. Spike chose to regain his soul, which means he was prepared to atone for all the wrong he'd done. Instead of making excuses, he accepted the horrors he committed and set about trying to atone by doing right.
Angel, on the other hand, took the path of denial. His soul was forced on him as a punishment. He would accept that he did terrible things, but he didn't really confront those actions until well into his own show. Spike was able to regain himself more quickly because he wasn't trying to pretend to be something he wasn't.
I agree
Liam was worse than William just like Angelus was worse than Spike
When you think of it, the Curse that the Gypsies laid on Angelus was truly horrible and unjust. They wanted to punish the Vampire, but instead tortured the man, Angelus didn't suffer, Angel did.
Exactly. And not telling him about the catch doesn’t make any sense. It’s kind of a mess really.
Imagine if Angelus got the chip in his head instead of Spike.
@@GemofAmara Angelus was part of Angel. He admitted that himself. Angelus was one of the worst of vampires, because he wanted to be. That part of him reveled in evil. But as a soulless vampire he'd never feel grief or guilt. He'd never understand what he did to his victims.
it is totally unjust. i just think they both suffered because Angelus had to feel whatever Angel felt. look in Orpheus how angry he was just to see Angels memories. he was locked up thirsty and forced to feel human emotions. that is a terrible punisment for a vampire. but unfortunately the side effects impact the human too much. i was angry when angel was blamed and also when he blamed himself as if he could have done something to help. he wasnt even there when those things happened. he could suffer with PTSD definitely but should not blame himself and other also could understand better ( at least ppl from the field, of course i get that civilians do not understand)
@@danieldickson8591 yes he was part of him in the sense that Angel carries him inside and has his memories. the demon keeps him alive while he feeds him with blood. but they are two different personalities. the only thing they have in common is the body. i see it similar to what star gate shows in goaulds - 2 ppl in the same body while one has a total control and the other just watches the events ( ensouled Angel) while when he is Angelus or Liam there is just one inhabitant. Angel is basically a prison for Angelus and the soul is the guard
I think of it like this. They both were turned into vampires, like boxes containing souls. Upon becoming vamps those boxes were emptied, angels complete and total in its emptiness, but Spike somehow clutching to some remnants of humanity, however small.
How else could he love Drusilla so completely? How could he feel heartache after she left him? How could he love Buffy? And even admire her?
I feel bad that the creator meant: "Compared" instead of "Vs". 😬 However, this debate has been ongoing since the show aired: I watched as a 30 y/o back then, and was bored by Angel, especially once they introduced Spike. Spike was so exciting, daring, risky, and FUN. Angel was so broody, boring, self-loathing, and-as Angelus:Cruel. The real comparison is between how *Buffy* had to deal with them. Great video! ✌💗
Angel is a more dangerous vampire then spike, but spike is a better man you could even say spike is a classy gentleman I used to love when he sat and had cuppas with joyce and how much he loved dawn. He loved her and her whole family angel even as a man had a edge to him
I'd have loved to have seen souled Spike vs Angelus. Annoyed it didn't happen in As5, but I guess we'd already had Angelus the previous year.
Another part where you can find differences between them is when Buffy dies. Spike counted the days, he was really sad...he stayed with Dawn to protect her and he also helped her friends to fight demons. When Buffy died Angel said to Cordelia that he was ok. That loosing Buffy didn't kill him. For me Spike will always be a better character than Angel.
Spuffy is much more real, you see better all aspects of a relationship...bangel is a teenage love, Spuffy is an adult love ... just review and listen to Buffy's dialogue with Angel and Buffy's with Spike
@@paolaserata8310 Very true, lets not forget Buffy was a teenage girl when her & Angel got together making their relationship all kinds of wrong in my opinion lol
@@paolaserata8310 Neither is an adult love
Buffy and Angel are toxic relationship and in so many ways and he never really loved her and the proof of this is the fact that when she dies he doesn't even think to come and consoled her sister want to come over and protect her sister or her friends like I said toxic relationship and Buffy is an idiot like most women who are in abusive relationships she doesn't seem to understand that a healthy relationship can only be when you have gotten rid of the toxic from yourself and she refuses to in fact break the bond between her and Angel Which is higher in the past simply because he's the first guy who she ever bunk'd she'd rather be with a memory of a toxic relationship then to live and be happy in a healthy relationship where the person she is with is willing to learn and expand and be there for her Spike was worthy of getting back his soul because he had a soul to get back in a manner of speaking, but Angel never have that and there's the proof that get again Angel is the abuser who enjoys abusing fight starts out as a user not an abuser a user who realizes that he is using and gives up his addiction and becomes a better person for it. I have never understood why Buffy gives angel any place in her heart after he's left it'd be one thing if it was the sweet memory of a first love but it isn't it is a sick unhealthy obsessive an obsession with a person who can never love her the way a person and a healthy relationship is supposed to be loved. Spike is the opposite he knows that the woman he loves will never really be able to love him because he can't leave the pass well enough in the past but he truly loves her because he can accept her as he is he can accept the fact that she never loved him and in a way can never love him because she won't give up the past even in the end when it's obvious that he is going to die to save them all he knows she's lying when she says that she loves him he knows it he can feel it and he still thinks her for the effort because he knows it's a lie and it doesn't matter to him because his love for her is what sustains him, and people don't understand that people don't understand that that is a greater love in fact it's mentioned in the Bible as being what true love is supposed to be true love is supposed to be a love that is not based on a given thing it is supposed to be the idea of that it's not a passion is an understanding that that what you would love that persons wellbeing is far more important than your own and uses the love between Jonathan and King David as an example people try to make it a sexual thing but it is not about sex it is about a true bond between two Souls two brothers can have that kind of love two best friends can have that kind of love and sometimes it can only be one person who has that for another and that's Spike. It's why on more than one occasion she's willing to not just give up his own life he's willing to go in there and save Buffy especially saving her from herself. I've always wondered now that it's been more than 30 years if Buffy has gone off somewhere I thinking that she's now-retired Slayer and that the younger generation can now be do the job and doing so she's made a bigger mess of everything and wouldn't it be interesting if Spike somehow came back and told her that, she would listen to spike because she would know that spot would never lie to her in this regard he is too much in love with her and she knows it to ever hurt her for no reason other than the fact that she should be aware that she's made a mess of things and that she's going to need help cleaning it up.
I am a fan of the Angel TV series. Liam(Angel pre turn) was an absolute asshole. He was a psycho after becoming a vampire. Joss Whedon developed a romantic relationship with Cordelia and Angel that was based on friendship and respect. He destroyed it to punish the actress for getting pregnant. Buffy and Spike developed into a relationship. Spike was a villain, but he had limits. He could feel. Angelus had no limits.
I hate what happened to cordelia in Angel. She deserved so much better
Yeah joss whedon is a terrible human, he is in dire need of a soul
@@aidenfielding9709 Even Spike and Angel without souls have more of a soul than Whedon does, that much is clear.
Spike ! As a human he was a victim letting everyone push him around and when he did try to fight back or stand up for himself his efforts was pathetic he was a nobody no one paid attention to him his peers view him as Nothing. So as an Vampire he had the power to fight back and demand attention that's why he then treated life as an party he never look back at the victims cause he never wanted to remind himself of the times he was once a victim Himself !
Angel ! As an human he always tried to prove himself as a man in his father's eye's. He's father look down on him and made him feel inferior to him he was a victim to his father well in a sense he Was. As an Vampire he became greater than a man he developed a god complex in the way his father made him feel inferior to him. Opposed his will on to others and made them feel inferior to himself that's why he never took his eyes off his victims he loved the fear and the position of power that he gained from Them !
Great analysis!
@@GemofAmara Thank You !
I agree and i thunk most people over looks that
It's Spike that's stronger in the end. And, oddly enough, more considerate. Much more so then the average human when they dare to take something at face value.
spike might rip your throat out. But only if you target him. Treat him with kindness (but not sympathy. Firm approch works well with him) and he's loyal as they come. He knows the pain too well.
Angel never knew that pain. He's still weak. But he yes yet to be pushed to breaking point. So he can't grow yet. Because no one's pushed him down far enough for him to learn to make the best from the worst. The two characters also contrast each other. Angel is the person most people are. Flawed. Weak and wallowing yet not weak enough to learn to be strong yet. Spike is the strong one. Honest. Making no excuses. If people fear him then it's because they fear their own mistakes. Having faced volatile monsters myself (armed people. Suicidal. etc) and always defused those situations, I don't fear this. I don't fear Spike at his worst. Even if he makes me a target.
What I do fear is an ignorant fool that doesn't even know what they're doing. Angel in other words. At least spike can know the situation he's in and bounce back quickly. Angel is jealous of this. He wants to do better. Adapt faster like that. But until he learns to stop wallowing and losing himself in the faces of his prey then he's always going to hesitate and stall. Too afraid to embrace the worst. Even when it comes to buffy, who is pushed away when she tries to be there.
For all of Spike's flaws he's always been there. For all of Angel's flaws... When push comes to shove who is it that is always there through thick and thin? Who accepts the worst of themselves and others? Then and only then do you know nothing will come between you.
@@taramaforhaikido7272 Yeah I agree to some degree! But I was talking about their lives as humans and their Journey to being a vampire !
Everything your talking about happens after!
Now I need to go on a Buffy marathon...
Spike is a more interesting character and a better man than Angel was in the series.
Yep
in buffy angel was just an empty vessel against spike but in his own show angel became more interesting and deep (especially s5) spike is more funny and angel is more deep
Yea true but angel is f up ! Spike was in love with druillsa and spike love addict! Angel kill his love ones he drink and was a playa! Spike like I wrote love addict with a pink rock attitude!
Clever video to show all the differences between the Spike and Angel. Well done.
"Window dressing!"
I love that line.
That scene is amazing. Spike wanted Buffy to kill him because he felt he was too dangerous to live. It was an act of strength for him to die. Angel wanted to die out of weakness. Because it was too hard for him to live.
@@GemofAmara you are biased against angel. he wanted to die because he knew he was too evil as angelus. and as he experienced the manipulation from true evil he was afraid to slip again and loose his soul. he wanted to rather die than to hurt anyone let alone buffy. he was at a low point and that time. but in angel he gad a chance for happily ever after with buffy but knew the world needed him to fight so he gave it up for buffy and for the whole world. he was a true hero. not saying spike wasnt. but he literally gave up his hapiness for the world
Spike kind of laid out the difference in all this in Crush. The chip was like training wheels. He couldn't be his evil self and found there was another way. But even in spite of that, Angel's level of evil goes unmatched.
Spike always 100%
The last scene 10:28 explains alot of how their characters are, spike did a lot of evil when he was without a soul, but it was never about doing evil it was about the feeling it gave him. Spike simply enjoyed living (technically he wasn’t alive but ykyk), he simply rolled with the punches and killed what and when he wanted, in his words, “never really looking back at the victims”. This is where Angelus differs, he was in it for the evil, for the feeling it gave the victims, in his words, “couldn’t keep my eyes off them”, it was all about them, he was sadistic and cunning, he wanted to ruin lives and create tragic ‘masterpieces’ out of innocents.
Simply put, without a soul and morals, spike simply just didn’t give a shit and Angelus gave too much shits💀. Both were evil but in different ways, Angelus let himself be driven by malice, Spike let himself be driven by passion.
I love both characters so much, they were both so beautifully written with lots of depth. Truly very different from eachother but alike in many ways. I like that their characters were written for THEM, instead of just for the plot of fighting over the the female protagonist (cough cough twilight). While Buffy did play a pivotal roll in their character growth, still it was never about who was better for her or who won her, it was about how they changed because of her. Both had great character archs and i believe they can both be appreciated. (spuffy forever tho🗣)
I just rewatched the series all the way through for the 3rd time. The first time I was only 13 and it was the true love of Bangel all the way for me. Now as an adult I fully believe Spike is better for Buffy (i've never read any of the comics but I've heard abt some parts)
Side note:
Maybe Liam had the potential to be a good man, but being sired at that point left him permanently in that state
when i was 11 i liked the story between buffy and angel, but i immediately loved spike and from the fourth season i just forgot angel.. now reviewing all 7 seasons, i have found angel boring, selfish, narcissistic, i don't like him at all. ..Spike, well, I love him even more and Spuffy is really the only real couple for me, a love that lasts a lifetime
Did you ever watch Angel? Cuz I assure you he’s a character
@@ninjanibba4259 yes, i don't like the show...
@@paolaserata8310 why not?
@@ninjanibba4259 because i didn't like the show in general ... i like few characters like Fred, Cordelia and Wesley but otherwise i was bored watching it
except only the comparisons he had with Spike in the fifth season, I found them interesting to better understand the relationship between the two
Spike is better in every way.
Buffy is beautiful.
FINALLY!!! thanks for it. Amazing vid
See twimos, this vampire character development done right
I love them both but it’s spike for me all the way ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Same.
angel didn’t have to work for his redemption at all it was just thrusted upon him as a “curse” while spike worked for his. no one forced him he wanted to be a good man even tho with his soul he wasn’t even that bad a man. thats more meaningful to me and why spike is a more interesting character than angel. i know he gets developed in his own series but he is still in my opinion not up to spike level
Spike was always better than Angel, in any form. Angel (Liam) as human was not a good guy to begin with and as Angelus was completely evil, no good in him at all. As Angel he was never willing to confront his darkness, he just complained all the time and gave up or ran away. Spike as evil as he was, still showed his compassion to others, not all the time but he did show it. He confronted his darkness, over and over. When he loved he didn't let anything get in the way of it or feel wrong about it, he just loved. Angel was just a cry baby all the time. Spike was better in his darkness than Angel was as the "good guy". I never thought Angel really loved Buffy. Spike was all in with her though, no matter what.
No.
Angel when a soul he helps Faith, the woman who almost kills him and Buffy.
Angel lost his oportunity of became a human.
@@danielmartinezmayoral6959 he also killed a room full of lawyers.
and when in helping Darla or Faith he always had his own agenda.
Angelus is just so f ing mean to Buffy!
You ever realize Buffy has had to talk all her boyfriends from commiting suicide? (angel in amends, spike kind of, and Riley in 5x3 I think)
in a sense, even billy in Lie To Me (the vampire fanclub ep)
and what's up with buffy falling for guys named with variations of wilhelm?
Let’s just say angel evil side is more dangerous then spike side spike is aware of himself angel had a split personality 💯
I love the fact I saw angle before buffy and spike was in 1 episode in the first season and I loved him from day one and was hoping to see him again then I saw buffy and am so happy spike was in it so much
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Brilliantly done. Chef's kiss. 👩🍳💋👌🏾
I love the caption.
Spike over Angel any day of the week!
Spike needed his own show
Even now he could still have one - and they already have a built in "reason" why he appears older: Unlike Angelus (there IS no "Angel") Spike's soul, is not curse-driven. As such he ages, like any other.
What would REALLY rock..? is if they went a similar route as Old Man Logan - Spike's time is running out, and before it does..? He's determined to do Good (do note the caps!) one last time. (They could then save him by having Buffy feed him her blood w/the subsequent Happily ever after bit...)
My thoughts (and hopes) anyway...
Cheers, my friend!
🍻😎
@@Sidragrosm sounds epic!
They both are dangerous, cool and in love with Buffy.But Spike is sexier!!!
Spike really loved Buffy
I swear to god If a Bangel shipper brings up the bathroom scene ever again I will refer to this: 10:06!
Yes cos attempted rape is the same as that scene...
Snapper for real though, Angel was trying to kill himself, and wanted her to leave. Not saying hitting her wasn’t wrong but it’s a VERY different situation. Plus Angel may be worse without his soul, but at least Bangel was built on an emotional bond/love and not random sex and abuse
Bea Jack 💯% Bea!
I don't see the comparison tbh angel shouldn't of hit her but spike did try to rape buffy
James Green Their physical relationship was always violent. Spikes motivation was that if they could just “do it” once more, he would convince Buffy that she did love him. He became enraged when she fought him off - but all along we know she’s the stronger one (despite her injury). The situation was based on a true story with the genders reversed - one of the writers tried getting her ex back the same way but he rebuffed her. Obviously she wasn’t violent like Spike was & let’s face it he was still a soulless vampire. He was still “a very bad man”.
I'm sure it kills angel that spike can be with buffy in every way.
Angel is way better than spike
0:16 omg angels face lmaoo
Only SPIKE FOREVER ....!!!!!!!!!!
J aime beaucoup cette série
truth is... that a Vampire is similar to the man he was alive. Liam was a very bad youngster. William always was a good and decent man.
I like spike. His character was great, but Angel had such desire not to be evil again it made him the hero he was. His regret and remorse was easily seen. I adore Angel
Daily Chaos I never liked how quickly Spike got over what he had done when he was evil
@@anatoldenevers237 he didn’t get over it. Spike still feels guilt and remorse for his past actions but he chooses to focus on being a better person in the present rather than wallow in his guilt.
@@hellspawnvicious9990 yeah, I know he didn’t really get over it. Who do you prefer, Angel or Spike? Angel has always been my favorite
@@anatoldenevers237 I’ve always found Spike to be a far more interesting and dynamic character overall. Don’t get me wrong I think both characters are great in their own ways. They both have their strengths and their flaws but Spike has always had that extra bit of charisma to him that you rarely see in Angel.
@@hellspawnvicious9990 they’re very different. Honestly I think giving Spike a soul was a mistake, he was an amazing villain. And Angelus is my favorite villain. He’s easily the most evil character in the Buffyverse.
Люблю обоих. Оба крутые. ❤️❤️❤️ Только Спайк с чувством юмора)
Obviously Spike is better than Angel.
Both of em are heroes, just never had nearly a similar history. That is why they never reacted the same way
I never realised the parallels between how Angelus treated Buffy and how Buffy treated Spike after they slept together
Angel was way evil than spike !
imho i dont think so.
my darling ManU supporter is. Not the one that had some gyppo say some words over him and he believed it
Spike is not only the better of the two men/vamps but the best character on the show in my opinion.
spike is better then angel in everyway spike got his soul cause he wanted too angel it was forced on him angel with a soul had sex with a kid and stalked her spike without a soul tried to rape Buffy but felt it was very wrong then seeked a soul them little things prove alot right there angel ain't shit
Angel gave away his soul and won it again to save LA from never ending night in season 4 of the spin off, even facing angelus in his subconscious
I think you're misremembering dude, Spike's goal was to get rid of his chip to stop being in love with Buffy, he didn't know he was getting his soul back
I would encourage you to rewatch those scenes. Spike never actually says what he wants from the demon. Not on screen anyway. The dialogue is intentionally vague as a form of misdirection. The writers wanted the audience to be surprised. It’s clearly stated in season seven that getting his soul was his goal.
People keep forgetting spike had a chip in his head for years that made it impossible for him to hurt humans. That with his stalker obsession with Buffy made him get a soul. If it wasn't for that Chip he would have remain evil killing people.
No one forgot. The chip is an important part of his redemption arc.
Beau montage. Bravo !
Merci!
@Micheal Henry Thanks! I have a few Buffyverse videos I'm currently working on. Expect one in April for sure. 😀
4:28 "Spike, you're all covered in sexy wounds."
I see Angel has the person that is still flawed. Always pushing away and knowing how weak they are. They even admit this.
I see Spike as the person that seeks to improve at any cost. Even if it costs them everything.
Even though Angel is the laughing stock, what's important to realise is that in all likelihood that's the average person. Still flawed. Still weak. Still not knowing how to do better. Without Angel then Spike wouldn't have contrast. Remove one and the other falls apart. They're both reflecting each other.
Spike is better at it because, simply put, he's not deluded with good intentions and moral high grounds. He's just honest. Angel on the other hand is seeking to become a "monster" to escape the "man" he is. But these things are just labels. You'll never come to terms with yourself if you reject yourself.
Angel hates himself. Spike doesn't. Angel couldn't accept amd embrace Buffy because of this. He pushed Buffy away because he pushes himself away. Spike on the other hand will challenge you and hold on tight.
If the world is going to burn, burn with those that face you. Or smolder alone. For all of Spike's flaws he's a very loving and considerate person. Much more logical then many others would be as well.
11 minutes of why Spike is better than Angel
No
@emilia i totally agree with you! spike is the best
I totally forgot that when he boned buffy he lost his soul but it seems they missed that scene.
Angel got better in his own show. Spike got better when he returned and became a regular.
Overall tho, Spike was better. His relationship with Buffy was more even rather than just Buffy going after Angel when he didn't really do that much for her, bar looking brooding
Didn't he try to rape her..nothing healthy about that..
You’re wrong Angel gave up his happiness and buffys happiness Angel was selfless because he realized that buffy could never be happy with a vampire matter of fact come to think of it Giles had the same revelation. Angel realizes the bigger picture where spike ultimately didn’t
Ben Dover right spike fans are so blind
@@PsychologyWizard Think that's the worst thing that can happen? Please. Spike sacrificed himself for Buffy. Went through hell and back. Endured pain and suffering like few will ever know. With kindness. Without reward.
Spike knows means and intends what he does. He makes no excuses for it. You can trust in that. I trust in it. Buffy does.
Angel, he knows not what he does. Too "nice". Are so fragile that you would rather make Spike a target and change the topic when the world is full of people that will speak for others as if you're not even in control?
Spike also says "Kill me" to Buffy. He'd rather die then kill her. Except when he went to kill her with the shotgun. But he needed the honesty. The answers. That's what connects them. That's what binds them.
Angel on the other hand backhands buffy. As bad as rape may be, rejection is always worse. It's to be seen as a freak. Like you're not worth the hate. You're not worth anytihng. You're not worth the attention, not worth killing. The worst thing anyone can ever do is not make you a target at all. Because at that point you're not even worth anything.
Which is exactly why Angel and Buffy could have done with fighting more. You want a perfeclt flawless healthy world? It doesn't exist mate. If you never been through hard times then you never challenged each other. If love isn't a train wreck that's struggled to stay on the rails then it's not worthy of the name.
Возвращение души Ангелу не осознанно! А возвращение души Спайку осознанно он сам этого за хотел и по сути он выше него по Морали.
Angel was a pretty good character for the time he was in but I love spike ❤
It's always been Spike
I like how these two are foils.
Spile: Yeah
Angel and Spike are both amazing!
Spike's mother was Jason Gideon's wife in Criminal Minds always love Angel & Spike the two hottest vampires 🧛♂️ 🧛♂️💙💙
They're so simalar but so different at the same time
William (Spike) was always a MUCH better person than Liam (Angel) ever was. The only reason Angel is as "good" as he is with a soul is because the gypsies added a conscience to him when they gave his soul back. Liam didn't seem to have much of a conscience, even as a human. It was completely impossible for soulless Angel to fall in love. Spike managed it quite well, as did another vampire on the Angel series. Oddly enough, his name was William, and he was in love with Elizabeth (also a vampire). "Buffy" is sometimes a nickname for Elizabeth.
I believe his name was James (the lover of Elizabeth)
gypsies did not "add" conscience. they simply returned the soul back to its original body. liam DID have conscience. he wasnt evil just a spoilt brat. he was rich, he didnt feel any responsibility so he just drank alcohol and enjoyed women. as long as everyone was consenting he didnt need to feel any guilt at that point he was just enjoying himself but was good at heart. he was wasting his life yes but wasnt causing any harm. we can see it in flashbacks and in angel episode spin the bottle. he was horryfied when told for the first time he killed someone. in spill the bottle he says he roots for the slaves which is kind of advanced for someone who died in 1753. when he got the soul back it was an eye opener for him.and he changed for the better eventually in the sense that he wasnt wasting his life anymore and did his best to make the world a better place
@@vladimiramatejova1796 but Angel is not Liam. He just has his body and memories but he is a demon inhabiting Liams body. When he got the soul, he stoped being essentially evil, he could easily feel guilt and remorse as human beings do, but he was still a demon. Liam as a person died in 1753
@@drevenypribor6144 this is interesting. where do you get this from? i am curious if we have some data to back this up. 1)Angel explains he got his soul BACK indicating this is the soul tht was previously in his body 2) in the haloween costume episode buffy says she wanted to dress like girls from the era when angel was alive. he says he despised those girls. the interaction indicates he is the same person as before he was turned 3) what soul does he have then? some random guy who had nothing at all with all the sh++? would that be weird an even more unfair? 4) i think him getting his soul back is his second chance as he had the potential but was wasting his life. it is kind of beautiful that he got an opportunity to be a hero instead of that drunkard with the prospects of becoming human again after he is finished with the punishment 5) if it is not him how come it is always the same soul getting back to its body when he looses it and then gets it back again? 6) in amends he tries to excuse his drinking behaviour in front of the first evil saying I was young I didnt have time to / die of syphilis- the evil finishes/. he is talking about his behaviour as Liam. 7) he talks about "me" when meaning Liam or Angel and as "him" meaning Angelus although sometime says also "me" when indicating Angelus. but there are two different persons that was mentined several times
Spike wins everytime no doubt bout it!
Angel is a dog in a muzzle. Once he's free the world is going to die. He even cannot be compared to Spike. Spike >>>
They did a lot of neck snapping in that show.