Orcs always attack! Or do they? Reactions in OSR TTRPGs
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2024
- Here I talk about my reaction to the reaction tables in OSR game - bust out 2d6 and let me know what you think
Welcome to Bandit's Keep
Check out my other channel BANDIT'S KEEP ACTUAL PLAY:
/ @banditskeepactualplay
Where I stream Various TTRPG systems.
Follow me on:
Twitter / banditskeep
Instagram /
My podcast can be found here: anchor.fm/daniel-norton
Orcs always attack, or do they? Reactions in OSR TTRPGs - บันเทิง
![[Full Episode] MasterChef Junior Thailand มาสเตอร์เชฟ จูเนียร์ ประเทศไทย Season 3 Episode 4](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/e7Oqqo90x_w/mqdefault.jpg)
Reaction rolls are great. That's how you survive low levels, talk your way out of combat. Gary & Co always intended on conversing with orcs to be an option, and per the table, it works about half the time.
For sure!
It can be used as a soft gauge of reactions. Sometimes the best reaction you can get from an encounter is "I won't eat you right now" and sometimes the worst reaction an encounter will give you is "Get out of my house or I'll call the yellowjackets!"
The neutral reaction we got from a beholder was its normal reaction to all other life: Violent hatred.
I'm loving reaction roles. The party made friends with a couple goblins and slowly backed away from a confrontation with goblin bodyguards
Excellent
As others have voiced here, reaction rolls are IMHO a vital part of the game. Same goes for morale. They are holdover rules from wargaming, and you can clearly see this in Chainmail, but they are really useful and, frankly, fun. What makes the game less fun to me is having everything be predictable. If monsters always attack, this gets dull because it is the same thing over and over again. Also, as you suggested with your examples, reaction rolls create fun role-playing possibilities and story arcs. In some ways reaction rolls in particular are medicine for railroading,
Ah yes, when even the DM is nit 100% sure how everyone will react the tracks of the railroad start to twist.
Still can't believe I randomly found your channel (Thank you algorithm!) I've been binging these like wildfire as I'm new to the OSR and will be running a table soon. You've been an absolute godsend mate!
Thank you for the kind words, let me know how your game goes, have you been running other systems until now?
@@BanditsKeep Will do! I've mainly run dnd5, with a little bit of 4 and some Call of Cthulu scattered in
Oh cool, it is on my list to someday play fourth edition as I missed that one. I did run fifth for about three years though.
Daniel does great content. Found him years ago and I watch him more now ... go figure LOL
Well Herr Bandit let me belly up to the bar.
I love your example of the use of reaction rolls in an inherently hostile environment. (Larry for Chief... we need new blood and he will go get it!). I have an example of my own....
Years ago I was running a D&D game. Low level party in a "caves of chaos-esque" dungeon.
They snuck into a new cavern, but weren't particularly stealthy and they were detected by a band of kobolds. I rolled a reaction roll and got the double 6s. Now the PCs were invading, but the PCs were also high enough level that a small band of kobolds wouldn't be a challenging fight. So they hear a shout out of the darkness that startles them. A croaking kobold voice says they will leave a pile of treasure in the room and the adventurers can just have it without killing them.
Now it was just some copper and silver (and they did in fact keep some for themselves) but it was an "overwhelmingly friendly" encounter that wasn't really friendly. The Kobolds were scared silly. But the outcome matched the spirit of the roll.
Great example
I am playing a solo campaign using Whitebox and one of the first random encounters I did was 4 (1d4) wererats. I thought for sure that my poor cleric (without silver weapons) was dead for sure. The reaction roll came up 12. They ended up being a group.of wererats seeking redemption and healing who were taken by the cleric as his penitant retinue. After an almost TPK one of these wererats became my PC. Love the reaction roll. Too bad I come to discover it now playing in the OSR. I started with BECMI but my English was not good enough to grasp the finer details of the game and the rule never made it to my original table.
@@rolanejo8512 That sounds like an awesome story/campaign!
That is pretty much what we do, the reaction roll is a gauge depending on the situation. A 2 reaction from a townie is not going to be instant murderous rage.
Sometimes it's the opposite, the most "friendly" reaction you can get from a beholder is that it won't murder you right now and just tells you to get lost. It is a nice outcome for the players, since their hobos didn't get mauled by a beholder.
Sometimes it's the orc chief's birthday, and they drag the adventurers in for an awkward bit of feasting and clumsy merrymaking :)
Yes!
It's a dang shame that this mechanic went away. I am going to use this in my next game. Thanks and keep up the good work.
I agree, it’s simple and elegant - I find the d20 system, by removing bell curves from rolls lost some of this subtly
@@BanditsKeep 2d6 is my default for random number generation. You can put the most likely outcome in the middle with the less likely things on the ends. What I like about the reaction mechanic is that it forces the DM to do some mini story making on the spot as to why the encounter is going as it is. This brings the art of being a Dungeon Master into play and really works the advantage of having a person run the game rather than it being run by a computer.
@@copperclockmaker I agree, 2d6 and 3d6 have replaced d20 rolls in almost all my games.
@@BanditsKeep even up to Attack rolls and Saving Rolls? Inquiring minds wants to know.
@@rolanejo8512 Good question, no attacks and saves I use d20, otherwise i'd have to re-write/calculate them to handle the curve. Which is what i did in my OD&D hack that only uses d6
I think interpreting those very positive reaction rolls can lead to some good character development and world building in some cases. Imagine you're storming the Orc stronghold and suddenly an Orc is very excited to see you. Why? Well, maybe he's not part of that tribe but a prisoner of war from another Orc tribe and sees his chance to escape and enact his vengeance upon his captors. Maybe he was raised by Dwarves as a baby and wants to go back home. Maybe he's just a weirdo, touched in the head or chosen by the gods or something. The possibilities are endless and fascinating.
For sure!
Sometimes the crew's actions take precedence over a reaction roll. A section of paramilitary hobos who are carrying the dead bodies of three other trolls are not going to get a friendly reaction from a troll who walked in on them.
Then you can gauge what a "friendly" reaction is, according to the circumstances. The newcomer troll can surrender and enthusiastically agree to keep quiet.
Oh a last thought then I will stop soaking up space.
I would argue that there maybe times when a result of 2 leads to a hostile response that is in the spirit of an immediate attack but isn't. For instance what if you encounter a prospector (wandering monster) who feels that you are in the area to poach his claim (roll of 2 extreme hostility). Because he isn't stupid he won't attack, but perhaps he is chaotic (and a bit evil) so instead he obsequiously sneaks away to set up a rockslide. I would naturally give the most socially astute character some insights. Maybe they murder hobo him (probably not with my group). Maybe the blow it off (the likely result for my group) and are caught in surprise later. Perhaps they have the thief follow him and see what he is up to.
If I did something like that I would both make sure the result was soon after the encounter and make sure it was clear who did it (though not necessarily why). That way it keeps everything in context of the encounter.
Just a thought.
Love this series of discussing B/X mechanics.
It maybe worth looking up TH-camr Hexpress. He has a fun video on alternative uses of the turn undead mechanic (mentioned because it is also a 2d6 bell curve roll). If you want I will find the link and post it here.
Right, an intelligent foe is nit going to charge to their death because you roll snake eyes - setting up a trap is a great option. Oh yes.Todd over at Hexed Press is great, I remember that video.
@@BanditsKeep I start my ASSH game tomorrow. The players have opted to start with a funnel. The antagonist is a Hyperborean mind control fungus. That means the bulk of the enemies are infected fast zombies. No reaction roll needed.
They will be attacking to subdue to some extent. The fungal lord needs more servants! (All hale the fungal lord).
That sounds fun!
I've ruled that a 2 reaction leads to the worst the encounter can give. Depending on who the encounter is.
A 2 result from a townie is most likely not going to lead to drawing knives. A banker would tell you that no deal can be reached and ask the guards to escort you out of the building, and over a few days you find yourself blacklisted.
A 2 reaction from the crowd at a pub could lead to a fistfight, but the worst these lads will do is tossing you out into a rainbarrel.
This and your morale comments are spot on. We used the tables in much the same way--a spark to generate more varied and emergent game narrative.
For sure
These charts never left my mind, but as I recall my time as a player I don't think my brother ever used them once. When I DM'd (50% of the time over the past 4 decades, and 100% the past 4 years), I used them most of the time, and if I didn't like the roll would give the Players a chance at a 2nd chance roll if they could role play it out. I'm prepping to start up a b/x while enjoying a break from DMing. During this time I get to enjoy being a player again, also get a lot of free time to work on a ln old school campaign. Your videos have been awesome. Prof Dungeon Master also.
Rock on brother 🤘
Awesome, thanks!
Personally, if there is ONE rule I'd keep over all others from old D&D it's reaction. It's unique to old D&D (I don't reckon many RPGs that have it, no matter the style), and it's one of the thing I'm the most frustrated about when I'm a player in the more recent editions. I import it no matter the editions I'm playing. Just try it if you want: play B/X or OD&D without reaction rule. You'll see right away something CRUCIAL is missing. EDIT: I also include morale since for me loyalty/morale/reaction are all extension of the same thing. Also, I don't mind that some monsters have no reaction, like undead, since it's just part of the game and a minor thing that creates a different threat (like traps).
True, morale is definitely part of the equation here.
@@BanditsKeep Otherwise all monsters always attack, and all fight until death. Definitely a source of frustration for me when Im a player.
The gnomes are hanging around in the garden. Yup. Natural habitat of gnomes 🤣
Haven't yet used that mechanic since getting into OSR type gaming. Gotta take it up though. And come up with names for orcs and goblins. 😀
Ha ha yes!
I think these are all really good thoughts, I can't think of too much to add this time lol. Just keep the good content flowing. ^_^
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Great work! I liked watching you design then run the dungeon. Cool to have more content at the perfect time!
Thanks!
One of the examples I use for races that meet each other and reactions is a threat level: If something is doing harm to said race, and another race. More than often enough, they both will join forces to defeat the common enemy. How can orcs, Hob-Goblins etc... and X Race band together to become freinds? When there is no more room in the Hells, the undead is always hungry to destroy any other race. Or something like that, but that is a theory, an TTRPG theory.
At about 4:00 - “Why would an orc be enthusiastically friendly to me when I’ve invaded their place and have been killing orcs and stealing their treasure?”
Easy one to field. There are two factions in the orc stronghold. The underdog group has refrained from fighting you because you’ve been killing off their competition. Now they want to join you in finishing the job - as long as you accept a limited amount of treasure and agree to go away afterward.
Dang it, I should’ve kept watching before I posted, because you covered the same idea at about 12:00.
Sometime it takes me a few minutes to get there 😊
@@JamesAnderson-dp1dt This is how the adventure Gundabad for MERP works. Gundabad has 16 000 orcs or somesuch, you're not going to grind them all down. But the mountain is divided between three competing courts and the entire mountain is tenuously picking sides.
If you ally with one of these orc lords, their dudes will start treating you as one of them and let you pass or even help you get the other side. On the other hand, the other two lords now treat you as an enemy instead of a neutral agent.
Learning how to deal with dungeon factions is another fun part of OSR. Dungeons are often inhabited by several different gangs and independent monsters who just look out for their particular interest.
As always I'm late to the party 😂 I always try to run orcs/goblins like middle earth orcs/goblins. They range in attitude and each tribe is unique. I think being exposed to the old middle earth rollplay (merp) helped me really flesh out how I present orcs. You can have a very intelligent conversation with the uruk Hai captain or totally fool the goblins of moria.
Nice! I’ve been running OD&D and they specifically point out that each orc tribe is unique - I like that
Love your videos keeps me inspired to keep working on my own project. I've been compiling all the D&D rules and making my own Ultimate D&D Edition. I plan on just tweaking from now on not going to jump around all the editions anymore. One Rule Set to Rule Them All
Awesome!
This system would good way to recruit monsters to your party like you hire everything from goblins to dragons as hirling.
For sure!
That was the assumption of ODD (1974). You should end up with a retinue of monsters (especially if you are a wizard with charm person).
Good stuff, yet again. I enjoy your insight.
Thank You!
Love this vid. From a general look at RPGs, mechanics are about 3 main things: representing the fiction, processing fictional situations, and generating fiction.
Reaction rolls are an amazing tool to generate fiction. What I love about your general gaming philosophy is that you seem to take the term tool to heart when it comes to mechanics. We use mechanics to fit the fiction of the game we're all playing, and achieve a goal with it in a way that makes sense to each table.
Your takes in these vids help me flesh out my thinking and make better sense of it, so thank you! Always look forward to these. :D
Thanks 🙏🏻 that was a really great way to summarize my general RPG philosophy.
I don't think I've ever seen the reaction rolls used, but they seem like a great way to handle non-scripted encounters. It's fascinating seeing how many interesting rules got dropped in later d&d editions.
I agree, this simple rule really helps me the game fresh for me
Hey dude loving the channel. Having cut my teeth on 5e I havent really come across reaction tables until xanathars.
Thanks! Very cool, I did not realize they reaction tables in Xanathar’s
We always figured that ALL rules were optional and up to the Dungeon Master.
Players could always ask for a roll and perhaps the DM would do it or just roll behind the screen ignoring the results and doing what he had planned.
Good players could always try to influence things through their actions.
Hiring retainers could be adjusted by reputation of the party. Or perhaps extra pay could influence retainers reactions.
A small horde of orcs or goblins encountered outside might be influenced by the party forming a line and drawing bows but not firing. Then one player steps forward and speaks in their language. Perhaps asking for passage or using some other tactics like asking if they have seen the dragon fly over recently. Orcs don't want to mess with dragon hunters.
The players playing their part is all part of the game.
For sure
In AD&D 2e, your Charisma mod infuenced loyalty and number of retainers.
Charisma was always most important for managing the henches personally loyal to your PC.
Great Video on a great topic.
Thanks
@@BanditsKeep
You're Welcome.
You earned the compliment.
TBH I haven't given this mechanic its fair shake but, that said, it doesn't mean that not using it results in monsters always attacking.
I was introduced to D&D with AD&D 2e, shortly before 3rd edition came out. I only played a few sessions before the group disbanded (afterschool activity and we lost the classroom we were playing in). Back then, I didn't know much about the rules, I picked up a character handed to me by the DM and I described what I wanted to do, the DM and other players would tell me what to roll.
Then came 3rd, and I managed to put together a group to play it. While it is very different to AD&D, the people I played with had been playing 2e edition for a few years and had been introduced to the game by our vice principle, so they had a very old school way of doing things that rubbed off on me in my early D&D years.
Since we played 3rd edition, there were no such reaction rolls, but that didn't mean we couldn't attempt to parley with enemies, such as goblins and orcs. There was no reaction roll, just ad-hoc judgement calls on the part of the DM based on our actions.
I remember times where we were clearly outnumbered, yet found a way to "wave the white flag" , so to speak, and manage to open a dialogue with monsters in order to survive.
As an example, in one game, we were escorting a traveling circus on a dangerous road, which cut through a forest. The ranger of the party detected signs that we were being watched and followed by beastmen. He was certain an attack was eminent. My highly charismatic and diplomatic Wizard took a few steps away from our convoy and began to talk loudly into the woods, in an attempt to negotiate.
Sure enough, a few beastmen came out to meet me, apprehensively. After a bit of diplomatic talks, the beastmen agreed to let us continue on our way safely without interference as long as we paid a tribute to them.
Not only did we accept to pay the cost, we offered even more should they accept to continue to trail us in the woods, until we reached the edge of the woods safely, as additional defense. They accepted, and no further threats came to us while traveling the woods.
My point is this: Yes, a reaction table can be useful in dealing with situations the DM is unsure of, but it isn't a must have, imho, and not using one doesn't ensure that monsters will always attack no matter what.
For sure, it’s always at the DM’s discretion as to what the monsters might do. I just find this to be a useful tool even within the range of possibilities that I have already established for the monsters.
@@BanditsKeep I'm sure it is, and I'll have to add it to my DM screen, and try it out.
All I'm saying is that some people seem to think that without it the monsters simply attack, which is patently false.
A table is a nice tool, but it shouldn't be seen as a substitute for a good old-fashioned DM ruling.
Rulings, not rules. Always :D
That's what attracted me to the OSR in the first place.
Indeed - however, I believe that the systems that are available often times will shape how people will play the game especially if they come to it with little or no experience. A game that has only rules for combat for instance to a new player is a game about combat even if in fact you can do many things. One of the major things that turned me off eventually from the fifth edition was that the standard way to gain experience points was to “defeat“ enemies which really let’s be honest means kill them. Now I understand that there are milestones etc. as options but the standard way is that, so you cannot blame somebody for playing the game in that way.
Great content. As someone who is now doing mostly solo roleplaying, the Reaction, Morale and Loyalty mechanic (i am using Whitebox which does the latter 2 different from BX) and it provides great AI for the world.
Oh cool, I was thinking of trying some solo play with these mechanics.
One thing folks should keep in mind! On 2d6, the average result will be 5-8, so if the result in that range is 'meh' do not expect interesting drama to happen often.
I typically look at that result and give the players a chance to keep talking etc then roll again - if I get meh again, I just got up or down based on how they role played
We've treated the middle result as "open to suggestions". They're not enthusiastic about you and if you're not easy targets or causing them harm right now they will let you get on with business. If you keep talking and make a really good offer they can get behind it.
If you run into eight gnolls, their neutral reaction if they outnumber you would be their default reaction to most things: Cannibalistic murder. But you still have a chance to get them off your backs with a bribe or food tribute.
When the PCs encounter creatures that should be hostile or should be friendly, you can weigh the roll by adding plus 1 to 4 or subtracting a 1 to 4.
In the positive I would use that if say the PCs are agents of the goodly king and they encounter knights. Or they are local heroes and they encounter people whom would know them by reputation but don't really know them. Also if they represent some allied group to those they encounter, maybe elves to pixies.
In the negative I would say when dwarves and goblins (or any species or cultural enemies) encounter each other, when the PCs have offended some local custom, or when they are in fact armed in someone else's home, but there maybe some reason not to immediately attack (like the PCs look really dang dangerous!) but attacking is probably on the table as a reasonable reaction.
There are times when friendly just isn't going to happen. Likewise there are times when attacking just isn't going to happen. A weighed roll can still give you a range, but make it more likely the situationally reasonable end of the spectrum will come up.
That’s true, modifiers based on the exact situation are always a good idea.
I love liberal use of reaction rolls. They can be stretched over the context of the situation (a positive reaction roll may still be deadly for the party) and they are one my key ingredients in making the world feel immersive and interactable. Rather than having rooms of enemies that just automatically attack they may hide, talk to the party, ect... For example on a 9-11 I might decide that these particular orcs are downcasts of the sort, not taking interest in killing and looting any humanoid that stumbles into them. Perhaps if the party entertains them enough they could learn a bit about their gripes within the Orc faction, perhaps hinting towards treasure or a particular danger within that faction.
This is all something that could come naturally out of a reaction roll. I also think that letting charisma bonuses affect these rolls (or other bonuses based on player actions) is great. It's not necessarily a bad thing when a DM decides exactly how every NPC reacts to the players. But reaction rolls give a way to make both the DM and the players engaged in the unpredictable chaotic fiction that are roleplaying games
Yes, a little chaos adds to the fun
I'm surprised more people don't take this stance, but in my games monsters aren't usually evil. They're amoral, but also helplessly greedy and selfish about whatever it is that they want; that's what makes them monsters. Each monster is different, some make use of violence and some don't. If they're helpful it's to ultimately get something for themselves. Some monsters are innately evil, but it's the exception rather than the rule. No monsters are good, however (or they wouldn't be monsters).
Makes sense
Got a d12 from AJPickett that is a random reaction die with little faces on it.
That sounds amazing
@Bandit's Keep It came as a set with a wind direction die, and a random weather die.
It can, however, be cause for some sporadic weather patterns. 😆
in the same way that silverleaf was given a +1 to the reaction roll, what about giving grumpier monsters a -1 to their reaction rolls as standard?
That makes sense - and depending on your world there could be fixed modifiers based on race etc like goblins to elves or the like.
Old school rules are the core roots of the game.
Newer stuff has lost touch with these roots.
Play styles change and certain rules and systems are forgotten, it’s nice to bring them into the light so players can decide if they will make their game better.
I guess I never algorithm commented. I have been using this mechanic in all my games since I learned of its existence. It’s a radical improvement. It’s an amazing prompt!
Awesome