What we can learn from the original D&D sample dungeon
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video I examine what we can learn from the original D&D sample dungeon. Published in the 3rd of the 3 little brown books "the Underworld and Wilderness Adventures" this dungeon tells us much about how the designers saw the "dungeon crawl"
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Playing solo I found a portal that was one way to a now deserted island.
It was very fortunate that my Dwarf had a battle axe and plenty of rope so I could make a raft to escape the island.
There were ruins but nothing of note and nothing else useful on the island. There were however plenty of coconuts.
Nice!
Woah... I've only ever seen the sample that Wizard's released. I didn't know that it wasn't the exact replica.
I was also unaware until recently
While I haven't played in many years, I still have a love of the old game (AD&D mostly, but also BX). I love that flexibility of design and play were encouraged (to the point of being required). I commented on one of your videos (some time ago) that I am a dungeon crawler at heart, as player and DM. Good dungeon design demands the approach that you talk about in this video, so it's not just the same thing each time, and keeps it fun and exciting. You have the best old-school D&D channel; keep up your great work.
Thank You!
I always felt the teleporter to the centre of the earth was to dinosaur land cf the Mystara hollow world and Ærth of Mythus Dangerous Journeys and the teleporter to the Moon was a nod to John Carter of Mars
Could be!
Fascinating watch. Love the no-damage pit and the actual use of dwarf slanting tunnels. Lots of food for thought :)
For sure, I go back to Thai every once in a while to remind myself.
I feel like corridor 5 is the reason why Mystara has it's weird moon. Player: "Ok so I'm on the moon and I don't suffocate? What do I see?" DM: "Ummm.... Cat... people?..."
That could be! They might also see “the moon maid” from Burroughs - we know Gygax was a fan!
It's one reason I think Oerth is hollow.
TSR (or maybe just GG) seems to have liked teaching rules by example, which makes the OD&D rules a bit tricky to read but works really well in the Moldvay basic rules. They also seemed to have a philosophy of deliberate incompleteness in order to encourage and develop DMs - for example the whole of the B1 module and the lower levels of B4.
Indeed
Absolutely 💯, David! Deliberately incomplete to give the DM their own fiat-game! Great stuff, and thnx Daniel!! 👊
Hello Bandit's Keep, interesting video, good to see the original product. Those old school books where so much richer and deeper than what we are use to now. You where talking about the party having to go back and forth many times, that's probably the invention of the wandering monster. A risk the party takes to go back and forth.
Thanks Bandit's Keep, you have a wonderful day!
For sure, thanks!
Another great video Daniel! Since returning to old school D&D one of the things I keep thinking is EGG really knew what he was doing. Lots of lessons to be learned or relearned by reexamining basic and AD&D. For something like the wedge shaped rooms i'd leave a clue for the party early on in the dungeon that at the time makes no sense. An example might be the party finds the body of a slain adventurer with a partial journal mainly consisting of hastily scrawled notes and poorly drawn, partial maps. One of the pages might contain a note reading: By Mitra! That lying dog Durkon told the truth for once. The way ahead lies between 5 and 6 o'clock with a poorly drawn image of an open hand. I'd make sure to include some nonsensical notes as well.
I like that!
Love the video. I am a not a fan of crazy angles and gotcha traps. I have always looked at the dungeon as living space at one time with some logic as to how it was laid out. Imagine day to day operations in the space you show. Just getting from one side to the other would be a challenge. Tombs on the other hand are full of gotcha traps and spaces.
In this style dungeons are a weird underworld- they are not designed to for day to day operations
Daniel have you read any of Jack Vances books? "The Dying Earth" I would like to hear your meanderings on how D&D was influenced by the novels (I have many Jack Vance audibles in my audible account, cool they have these classics to listen to)
Oh yes, Vance is amazing
If you like Appendix N, 28mm, take an afternoon or two to check out Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson.
It's a different tone - jocular, like a friend telling a story over a beer - but I would estimate a full 1/3 or more of OD&D was cribbed directly from its inspiration!
Happy reading!
@@ClericsWearRingmail read that many years ago... great book
Vance’s Planet of Adventure sparked a lifelong love for sword and planet stories and pretty much the reason Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is my fave module! Absolutely bonkers gonzo!
Enjoying these dungeon videos. Hopefully you will also cover the random dungeon generator in the ad&d dmg. I spent many happy hours knocking around these random labrynths, and it generated some really cool layouts.
For sure - I’m likely going to use the version from the strategic review but I shall cover it!
Loving the channel! Keep the good work!! 👏👏
Thank You!
That thumbnail art is WILD! Easily my new favorite depiction of snake-men, and the adventurers even have that early-OSR, we-only-have-d4-hit-points look of panic to boot! Do you know the name or source of the piece (or esp the artist?). Magnificent vid by the bye, excited to plumb the depths of your other work!
Sadly I made this video before I started recording where I got that art - my best guess is an early Heavy Metal Magazine or a later Weird Tales.
@@BanditsKeep all good! those will make for fun rabbit holes to go down. thank you!
A treasure trove right here! Which…. Now that I think about it, makes sense. That’s why DND was successful at all initially. Because those books were jam packed with REVOLUTIONARY FUN
For sure!
Two things: def gonna use the snap shut pit trap.
And OMG the ad started playing after the video was done and I’m in my house at night and all I heard was a creepy woman whispering and it freaked me out.
Love the carousal idea, I can hear the (good natured) swearing of my players now! I've found the "falling in the pit" bonus useful as well, almost like a consolation prize. "You may have taken 2d6 damage from the fall, but hey at least you opened a shortcut!" Used sparingly I find it can really ties together a feeling of connection in a dungeon. Why would some orcs have a trap that drops you in front of a troll lair? Well they're either working with it or they really hate it and want you to get rid of it! You could go the other way too, that the orcs didn't care or know what was below and they simply wanted a pit trap.
Indeed! Or perhaps it was not meant to be a trap, but the concealed nature of the trapdoor covering the pit/tunnel made it so!
maybe the pit was the designer's way of shortcutting to an important section of the dungeon, meaning that any monsters in that section (i.e. the troll) could enter that room without going through the pit trap. thus, the pit is a quirk of the dungeon designer that hasn't been discovered by any other inhabitants (until they fall :p)
Did they do that to the AD&D DMG as well, when they re-printed that book too? It makes me wonder how many module maps that they changed.
This I do not know
Thanks for explaining that!
Thanks for watching
The horror aspect could really be turned up in most games I have played in. I love the narrative an dot is my favorite genre to run. The more horror the better! Of course I run low fantasy so we are not talking Avenger's style D&D ;-)
Right, horror of this type is more difficult to pull off the more powerful and resource rich the characters are
I like a lot of the points here and will try to incorporate more of them. The only thing I think is pretty cheap is the "not quite 45 degree angle" passage that you just say goes south. I understand having a magical hallway but that feels dumb to me haha Thanks Daniel!
Cool! Not every idea is for every table, that’s for sure!
One other thing about the confusion in mapping is that you are not told e/w/n/s but left, right, and forward so it gets even more confusing. You might think you are going to join up to a path not taken at s previously encountered intersection and miss it.
True
Hi Daniel
I’m enjoying your content. I’m a new subscriber and a question came to mind.
I started playing with the Holmes blue box more years ago than I really want to think about, and my question is.. when you are playing OD&D or B/X do you use ascending armour class or stick to original descending. I use both and would be interested in your opinion.
Cheers from Canada
Bob
I use descending with BX and OD&D - and really any system that has that, not worth converting IMO
@@BanditsKeep yeah that’s generally what I do as well, but was just interested in your input
Thx
That cheese wheel with the wedge shaped rooms makes me think of a rat trap except this is a hero trap because the evil necromancer who’s dungeon this belongs to has a hero-pest problem. He likes to trap the heroes alive because his undead creations like fresh meat best.
Indeed!
What are your thoughts on the map of Quasqueton from B1 In search of the Unknown?
I like it, though I know some do not.
4:40 2000 gp!? That's a gigantic haul! That's 40 pounds of gold!
Indeed!
On the carousel door "discouraging" new players, a friend of mine had shared once a story of how three players couldn't figure out how a saloon door worked because it lacked a handle. I mean, it was literally at the entrance of the bar and had an an npc go through it.
If it was a normal door, why was the DM asking for a check?
@@BanditsKeep He didn't. The players asked if there was a handle and he said "No, it's a bar door." and it stumped them. As a matter of fact, been years, I remember him mentioning he described it as a saloon door but just didn't explicitly "name" it as such.
@@Xaxares I see. Funny story, but 100% on the DM IMO - if something. Should be crystal clear to the characters, the DM should just call it what it is… it was probably funny in the moment though to make them think.. but to me only for a minute.
@@BanditsKeep Yeah, I think after a minute or two of them being completely puzzled he had an npc just traipse through. And when they gasped in awe, then he just told them, "Well yes, it's a saloon door." Of course, it was years ago so the exact details are fuzzy.
When you are talking about F, I get confused. I was under the impression they walk south and at a certain point they end up back at the top(N) of F and walking back toward the transporter. However, you make is sound like they turn around to leave but they can't. I think they turn around and walk back to the top(N) of the F hall. Could you explain it further?
Oh interesting- like an ever extending hall? I read it as (because it is “one way”) the hallway teleports then to another long hallway in the dungeon without them knowing. If they turn to go back what they find “north” is a new section of the dungeon.
@@BanditsKeep
Oh, okay. I get what you are saying now. Yeah, I saw it as an ever-extending hall. Thanks for explaining.
This is why I find it hard to understand older D&D. Things are not explained clearly, or more likely I am not good at reading comprehension. Thanks again for explaining D&D so others can understand what is going on. I appreciate your insight and explanations. Looking forward to more in the future.
I dont understand the sloping ramp thing with the maps, so that players wouldnt be able to accurately map the dungeon.
Were players drawing their own maps from the DMs description?
We always drew the map for the players when we were the DM. If players drew it from a description I imagine it would go wrong quite quickly, even without ramps.
Yes, in old school D&D the idea was for the players to map based on verbal descriptions from the DM. It is, in some ways, a mini-game
"If the slope is gentle even dwarfs wont recognize it"... wow! That ability wasn't all that great to begin with, and now made even more useless; THAT is vicious!
For sure
This really underscores how early D&D wasn’t a combat simulator. It was an escape room simulator. This particular dungeon is dumb, but we need more thinky adventure & less stabby adventure.
More thinking is always a good thing
Don't forget talky, too!
Alignment languages and reaction rolls!
;-)
I don't find any of these ideas to be fun. Why would anyone want to be lost or confused?
Certainly not for everyone, simply another form of challenge for the players. If your group prefers other challenges that’s cool
Because different people enjoy different things. I hate horror movies. A lot of people love them. But I don't say "why would anyone want to watch a horror movie". I just accept that some people like things I don't.
Being lost and confused can be fun if you have tools to become un-lost and enjoy that kind of problem solving.
Yo Daniel you should email me!
I shall do it!
Yessss collab
I love your comments on the empty spaces of a dungeon and how it relates to the feelings of desertion and dread in a very old, abandoned or forgotten dungeon. And I did find myself drawing an especially confusing dungeon room or hallway for the players in later games, because it was very irritating for them to have made a mistake on their maps such that rooms broke into other rooms because their map was off. But we all did it at the beginning because it was in the book.
For sure - I’m looking at “Adventures in Fantasy” by Arneson and he says you should help them 50% of the time - I guess that’s less cruel 😈
30 years ago when I tried to run some players through this, I thought the entrance was one way. The players could come in, but they ran into the 'carousel' effect and needed to find the secret door in order to exit.
Oh man, that would be very deadly!
Hey Daniel, any chance of getting a link for the source of that map? I owned the 'white box' back in the early 80s, and the map from the WOTC reprints IS the exact map from the original books that I owned. Just wondering if that might have been from the wood grain earlier prints?
Interesting! I believe this is from the first printing - as the men and magic PDF also lacks the “all weapons do 1d6” - I found these PDFs years back on the trove - just titled “Better scans”
Just looked in “Art and Arcana” - this was the map in printings 1-3 they changed it in the 4th printing
@@BanditsKeep Oh cool. I'm going to have to grab that art and arcana set it seems like a must have.
It’s really great!
Pits as time sinks is a really cool idea. Especially with wandering monster checks, although I guess that "the princess will be sacrificed by cultists in t-minus 29 minutes" plots also work.
For sure!
I've always really like the concept of living, evolving, Isakai dungeons
For sure
I have 2 very different dungeon styles, the “purpose built, still inhabited” dungeons. Often very full, always a lair or base for a monster or faction. And then the under dark. A series of empty spaces, long corridors, and old treasure. inhabited sparsely by terrible things.
Another aspect of the circle-wedge entry: it's a *reward* for good map making, juxtaposed against the mapper frustration elements described later.
If we walk the full circle, we know the extent of the wedges. Likewise, if we loop around the top corridor, we know that the space north is constricted by the hall: unlikely to contain anything, based on the dimensions. However - the south is open: implying that, if a secret is to be found and additional corridors exist, the entrance by necessity *must* be in one of the three wedges to the south.
...or technically in another corridor entirely. YMMV.
:-)
Really good point!
Found to quite interesting. Want to get my.hands on those pdfs
Cool! They are available on drivethrurpg
I know this video is a couple years old, but i really appreciate the explanations for *how* a lot of these rooms and hallways are supposed to work.
Thanks!
First off, thanks for giving me a bit of a Eureka moment with those teleport portals, I'll incorporate a couple of semi transportable ones into the campaign I'm building, instantaneous travel between them would be a huge prize for organisations so scope for hiring adventurous types. Getting them to the 'right' locations would be tricky and might have to involve negotiations with humanoids to dig them out etc. The party might even want them for themselves if they discover them but that would lead to envy if it got out they had them....
While I did like the old dungeons back in the day, some of them did defy even fantasy logic, creatures just quietly waiting in rooms in dungeons without food and water waiting to leap into combat at a moment's notice. I've tried to get away from that over the years (not played in a while right enough) so I have tried to create some kind of logic (yeah, I know... 🙄) to my worlds. Dungeons tended to be more cave complexes etc although I'm incorporating a Dwarven canal system getting built into the world I'm building (after the Dwarves discovering an underground lake between their main city and a large outpost which requires the help of other races to clear out due to the Dwarves aversion to water). That will let me throw in some more 'old school' type subterranean crawls. I just need to get my finger out and make it happen now. Thanks for doing your vids mate, you've given me a lot of inspiriation.
Thanks for the kind words. I tend to not think of the monsters just waiting I the the room. It just so happens they are there when the PCs arrive, but they may not have been there 1 hour before - that helps me with the logic 😂
I like the trope that dungeons are alien beings that creed on the experiences of living beings in their domains
Traps, treasure and monsters exist to prolong living beings stay in the dungeon and makes the meal tastier by making the experience more intense
As the dungeon absorbs more existence from living beings interacting within it self
It grows bigger
Dungeons don’t want to kill the players, it lacks understanding of death, because the creatures it spawns return to life why can’t the players characters do as well
This is a cool concept!
Okay, I’m totally stealing this for my group and our game. This is amazing.
I advocate for a similar but somewhat distinct approach, that dungeons are by and large expressions or manifestations of an overall concept of the underworld, IE, that they're all sort of connected in some way, that any given deep dungeon *is* the underdark, and that they shift over time by nature, rather than by entirely logical, explicable processes like monster activities or geological phenomena. They spread, and birth monsters out of nothing, and that monsters could effectively be considered *dungeon elementals*. It's not necessarily sentient, at least not sapient, and not even necessarily malicious, just a (super)natural force. Even the treasures just kind of exist because the dungeon does.
You could look at it as the tropes coming first and then being force-justified.
So that's like one sort of approach. In practice I mix it with the more rationalist monster ecology approach.
Can’t take credit
Is it wrong to pick up girls in a dungeon
Reddit Ars magica /hfy came up with the concept first
If you want to enter a more realistic economics into your world
Dungeon creatures leave behind mana shards and dropped items when they die
Mana fragments and drop item are bought by merchants because they are Necessary for permanent enchantment
Drop items are needed to turn mundane tools into magical tools and upgrading existing items
Artifacts teleport back into dungeons at random times (when a god gets board?)
@@rpgsandmore7550 also you can have dragon lairs becoming dungeons or dragon choosing to lair in dungeons because a sleeping dragon is the best power source for a lair
Particularly greedy narcissist probably seek our dungeons for their tombs as well
Open space is great also corridors empty and echey.makes being in the dark more eerie too
Yes!
Been decades since I did that one.
Did you use it for inspiration or run it as is?
Someone else showed me once. I think we ran part of it. I was only about 15 then. 1977. Been a long time since can't remember much.
And of course these map tricks like the transport can be played for deceit as well: players enter some area, and the DM says, "OK, just a second" (shuffling of maps, more shuffling of maps) OK. You see..." but there has not been actual change in location. Just some paper shuffling
I feel like my players would see right through that 😂 I have no poker face
I can't agree more with notion that a big chunk of the ref's job is to track what resonates with the players.
For sure
I love anything that adds atmosphere or makes the environment challenging. Great video !
🙌🏻
I love anything that adds atmosphere or makes the environment challenging. Great video !
Me too!