I feel like the example of Conflict resolution using Alignment differences at the bottom of B28 is a FANTASTIC example of how Alignment was intended to work. I also feel that players should use these kinds of interactions more. It may reign in some of the "Murderhobo" activity that crops up in games. If a Lawful player with a Good and Lawful God goes against the tenets of that entity, then they should experience the inability to heal someone else who acts contrary to that entity's doctrine.
I learned to play using the Moldvay box and I've played or ran every edition since. Listening to your analysis of the example of play really drove home the best things about the Moldvay set: the simplicity and limited scope of the rules, the clarity of the editing, and the examples made it easy to pick up the set and learn to play. We moved on to AD&D shortly after playing BX for a few months (I didn't get the expert box). AD&D was less easy to pick up and play but the foundation from learning the Basic set made it easier to understand. If I had only seen AD&D, with no one to explain it, I might not have played it.
Really great reading; excellent points made too. This really is how old school shows valuable considerations. Absolutely the kind of "play" I go for. I love the randomness of the charts too.
Great video! It was not the first version of the game that I played, but B/X has always been my favorite version. And I think your dissection and commentary about the example is spot on. I remember back in the early 80s at the gaming table, what was actually happening in the moment of the adventure had much more influence over what happened in the game than any rule written in the book. A great example of this that you so rightly point out is the party losing initiative but Morgan Ironwolf getting to shoot at the hobgoblin before it moves into melee with her and attacks her because she had her bow out and ready. That doesn’t happen in modern versions because the rules govern play, not the situation. Hobgoblins have the initiative? They move in and attack, then Morgan gets to go. You be the judge of which makes the most sense in that situation. To me, her shooting with a readied bow before they move 20 feet to get to her makes more sense regardless of the initiative roll because the situation is more important than the rule in the book. Morale and the reaction table are so vital to this style of play as well as you point out. Not only is fighting every monster, and having every monster fight to the last one, a prescription for a TPK in B/X ... it’s sooooooo boring! It reduces play to open the door, kill the monsters, move onto the next room. Can you convince the hobgoblins to ally with you against their orc neighbors? Can you pay them some coin to find out about any traps ahead, or wild creatures like slimes that inhabit a section of the dungeon that the hobgoblins won’t even venture into? This is way more interesting to me, anyway, than killing them every time. We used to even use the reaction table for shop keepers when haggling over the price of goods with the PCs. What’s that? The reaction is positive? They find you engaging and interesting and are willing to sell you that sword for 15% off! I think you made another great point. As the DM, don’t be an asshole. A player wants to try something, allow them to try and let them make a dice roll of some kind to see if the character can do it. Most players I know are fine with that, they just want there to be a chance. If the roll is poor, they live with it. This, too, is very much in the spirit of the games like B/X or another of my favorites, Tunnels and Trolls. Rulings not rules. We don’t need a rule for everything if a DM is cool, but if a DM is an asshole, players are going to want rules to protect them from feeling like they are not being heard by the DM or given a fair shake. More videos like this please!
Good idea to use the reaction table for “social” situations like shopping! I typically do a roll under charisma but I like how 2d6 has a nice curve. I agree that those who want more rules are typically “protecting” themselves from asshole DMs, I’ve been fortunate enough not to have to deal with that but I can imagine it must suck.
Last weekend, I was playing 5e with my family and my son's gnome jumped into a river to get out of a boat that was attacked by gnolls and wanted to swim to shore. I said "Rules say it is 2 feet of movement to swim 1 foot." "That doesn't make sense, I am swimming down stream!" (he is 14). I failed as a DM in this case and stuck to the RULE and didn't let my son have his heroic moment. And I have been playing since 1981!!! Gah! Thank you for this video, and let my failures as a DM enlighten you to the looser play of OSR!
Going back and rewatching your vlogs (sometimes a 3rd or 4th time)... Realized you had the idea way back here that you led about doing one on wandering monsters. I know others have done it, but it's love to hear your take on this subject!
Good content dude. I've been digging on your Winter's Daughter game. I remember teaching my friends to play in the 80's and they used to go strategize in the corner, thinking i was going to "cheat" if i knew their battle plan
This is great, thanks. Hobgoblins are 1+1HD; that puts them in the next category. Classes are always treated as the next level up too, so a 1st Level Character Class is considered a 1+1HD for the Sleep spell.
Nope. Page B17 with the spell description says “lower level creatures will always be put to sleep before higher level ones. Any "pluses" are ignored (for example, 2 + 1 hit dice is treated as 2 hit dice). Creatures with less than 1 hit die are still considered as 1 hit die.” So hobgoblins should have been 1HD
@@BanditsKeep If that's how it's written the book. My experience was very minimal with the Basic versions, I played one maybe two games, then it was all about AD&D. This is a defining trait of the era, the typos and dodgy examples; it's all part of the magic of the game.
I love playing the characters as individuals that have certain beliefs, quirks, likes and dislikes. To play every fighter as a brutish killer would be no fun at all. If I played every Thief as just a guy who steals stuff most parties would hate them. A Robin Hood or Grey Mouser is much more fun and interesting to play. Clerics as you said should have a personality that fits with their order. They could easily become a problem for a party that goes against what they stand for. I've had a situation where a character didn't trust my character because of some things I had done. He would never turn his back to me and had very little trust in me. It did make for some funny jokes but didn't help the party much.
@@BanditsKeep no, I never knew it existed till yesterday...lol I havnt played since 85-86 ish. Do you have any recommendations? I like the old-school play but I'd still be a noob after not playing for so long
There are many Facebook groups where games are formed, look for 0SR in the title that will typically be a group that is into the older games or game styles at least
@@kearnsguitars2236 I was in a very similar spot.. loved D&D as a kid.. started with B/X, played AD&D too.. but only up to around '85/'86. A couple years ago I got interested again, and started following 'Looking For Game' posts on Reddit, wanting an OSR game.. eventually I responded to a post and we got a group of six together and have been playing weekly games for about a year and a half. Because it has way more players I caved and went for a 5e game.. not my preference, but it's a blast playing DnD again (online) with a good group of folks who have become pals.. and with our shenanigans, turns out the actual ruleset doesn't matter so much! Best of luck - hope you find a game!
Late to the party, but this and the exploration video were great! I am planning on running my first b/x game soon and these videos are very helpful! I'm surprised they have such low view count!
"we learned from the book" - yes, the book that was a remake of that book that was created specifically because Gygax's rulebook wasn't suitable for humans.
OD&D was written for experienced war gamers - that’s for sure. Once you take that fact into consideration, and not compare it to a book written for non-gamers, or books written with years of reference to look back on, your statement becomes a bit off I’d say. I always find it funny when people attack OD&D - if it was as bad as you state the game would not have taken off like it did.
@@BanditsKeep I'm not saying OD&D rules were bad, but the rulebooks were horrible. Inconsistent, badly written, with many rules either very poorly explained, or not at all - if you didn't already know how to play the game, you were SOL, and JWF. That's why TSR hired Holmes to write the basic rulebook that could be understood by humans, and he did such a great job, that the moldvay/cook/marsh edition followed, meant for people who prefered a true to its roots version of the game over the rules-heavy AD&D.
D&D was already selling like crazy before Holmes Volunteered to create basic - to his credit, he saw the “need” as the desire to play was great even outside wargamers
Good video and a great discussion about how to run a game and conduct combat. When I was learning to play, it was the examples that were given in the books that helped me to learn and understand the rule. I just discovered your channel and I am enjoying your content. Keep up the good work sir.
The old school style of play fascinates me and since implementing it at my table i've had much more fun than when I ran 5e or 4e. I'd totally watch more of these casual discussion and thoughts videos as I want as many insights into old school play as possible.
I've been gaming for ... too many years. While I enjoy 5e, I also have a habit of ignoring some rules I don't like. I've also been doing this long enough to have played a lot of games, and some of the most fun I've had is in pre-3rd edition D&D.
Yes, that’s how they interpreted it but the actual spell states that the plus one goes away so it should’ve been 1 HD each, but hey what can you do LOL
I learned from Mentzer's basic. The main differences from that were (1) I actually did assume you could pick the targets of the sleep spell since it wasn't clear, and (2) our clerics were assumed to gain spells purely through faith and the details of their religion were not really discussed. Otherwise the same general approach I think. We never used the "caller" idea, though it was mentioned as something that many groups would have (perhaps because there weren't many of us).
I found that, even today, generally when wandering through a dungeon one of the players will “take charge” so while the caller is not some thing that is official I still think it happens in an unofficial way.
It feels like the players really ARE in a dangerous and ominous place. In comparison, modern rpgs feels like a complex boardgame. I'm just discovering osr games. What I like the most is that ther is no balance. Just a dangerous world where you can find creatures much powerful than you, and you better run, negotiate, or whatever, because your character can actually die easily. And the simplicity of the rules, that relies more on the creativity of the players and the GM.
Hey Daniel, I've forgotten to ask you this, but what do you use to do your side-by-side/screen-shot videos? I'm gearing up for a full read-thru and don't exactly know what to use or how best to approach it. Thnx, and congrats on the 1000 subs mark!! 👍
I use OBS it’s free, simple to use and you can record and/or stream from it. Looking forward to the read-thru I’m guessing it will be BFRPG? That’s a fun system for sure.
Very interesting video Daniel. I have a question about how you handle morale. If the monsters fails a mirale check you made them flee and not turning back? Or do you give them the opportunity of regroup? Thanks
It very much depends on the situation, if the dungeon is the lair of the creatures and there are enough of them to regroup then I would say they would eventually come back yes. If they are wandering monster then probably not. That being said, it would not likely be anytime soon.
Alignment play is definitely missing from new systems. It's there, but a lot of folks seem to gravitate to murder hobo too quickly in these new systems. Or at least they are sorta structured and written that way by implication. Thx
I've always wondered what the players of Black Dougal & Fredrick were doing in the background... feverishly rolling up new characters to join the others, would have been neat to see that addressed in the rule book.
The red box is the first one I bought. I had played the D&D wood box previous to that.
That’s awesome, I’ve seen some of your quick look videos are the original D&D stuff, very cool!
@@BanditsKeep Thanks!
Dang! That book is in great shape.
I got very lucky - picked it up on eBay before the prices went crazy
Absolutely love this example. Why Rulings over Rules is at the heart of great TTFRPG.
For sure
This might be my favorite channel at the moment.
Thank You!
I feel like the example of Conflict resolution using Alignment differences at the bottom of B28 is a FANTASTIC example of how Alignment was intended to work. I also feel that players should use these kinds of interactions more. It may reign in some of the "Murderhobo" activity that crops up in games. If a Lawful player with a Good and Lawful God goes against the tenets of that entity, then they should experience the inability to heal someone else who acts contrary to that entity's doctrine.
For sure
I learned to play using the Moldvay box and I've played or ran every edition since. Listening to your analysis of the example of play really drove home the best things about the Moldvay set: the simplicity and limited scope of the rules, the clarity of the editing, and the examples made it easy to pick up the set and learn to play.
We moved on to AD&D shortly after playing BX for a few months (I didn't get the expert box). AD&D was less easy to pick up and play but the foundation from learning the Basic set made it easier to understand. If I had only seen AD&D, with no one to explain it, I might not have played it.
This is a good point, I too kind of stepped into AD&D with a “basic” knowledge which made it much easier to grasp.
Really great reading; excellent points made too. This really is how old school shows valuable considerations. Absolutely the kind of "play" I go for. I love the randomness of the charts too.
Thanks, yes random charts can be great inspiration
I'm shocked that I never saw your channel in youtube: error amended, liked and subscribed!
Awesome! Welcome aboard.
Great video! It was not the first version of the game that I played, but B/X has always been my favorite version. And I think your dissection and commentary about the example is spot on.
I remember back in the early 80s at the gaming table, what was actually happening in the moment of the adventure had much more influence over what happened in the game than any rule written in the book. A great example of this that you so rightly point out is the party losing initiative but Morgan Ironwolf getting to shoot at the hobgoblin before it moves into melee with her and attacks her because she had her bow out and ready. That doesn’t happen in modern versions because the rules govern play, not the situation. Hobgoblins have the initiative? They move in and attack, then Morgan gets to go. You be the judge of which makes the most sense in that situation. To me, her shooting with a readied bow before they move 20 feet to get to her makes more sense regardless of the initiative roll because the situation is more important than the rule in the book.
Morale and the reaction table are so vital to this style of play as well as you point out. Not only is fighting every monster, and having every monster fight to the last one, a prescription for a TPK in B/X ... it’s sooooooo boring! It reduces play to open the door, kill the monsters, move onto the next room. Can you convince the hobgoblins to ally with you against their orc neighbors? Can you pay them some coin to find out about any traps ahead, or wild creatures like slimes that inhabit a section of the dungeon that the hobgoblins won’t even venture into? This is way more interesting to me, anyway, than killing them every time. We used to even use the reaction table for shop keepers when haggling over the price of goods with the PCs. What’s that? The reaction is positive? They find you engaging and interesting and are willing to sell you that sword for 15% off!
I think you made another great point. As the DM, don’t be an asshole. A player wants to try something, allow them to try and let them make a dice roll of some kind to see if the character can do it. Most players I know are fine with that, they just want there to be a chance. If the roll is poor, they live with it. This, too, is very much in the spirit of the games like B/X or another of my favorites, Tunnels and Trolls. Rulings not rules. We don’t need a rule for everything if a DM is cool, but if a DM is an asshole, players are going to want rules to protect them from feeling like they are not being heard by the DM or given a fair shake.
More videos like this please!
Good idea to use the reaction table for “social” situations like shopping! I typically do a roll under charisma but I like how 2d6 has a nice curve. I agree that those who want more rules are typically “protecting” themselves from asshole DMs, I’ve been fortunate enough not to have to deal with that but I can imagine it must suck.
Really fun video Daniel, thanks!
Thank You!
Very well put. I enjoy your videos as much as professor dungeon master or questing beast. I hope your channel blows up.
Thank You!
Last weekend, I was playing 5e with my family and my son's gnome jumped into a river to get out of a boat that was attacked by gnolls and wanted to swim to shore. I said "Rules say it is 2 feet of movement to swim 1 foot." "That doesn't make sense, I am swimming down stream!" (he is 14). I failed as a DM in this case and stuck to the RULE and didn't let my son have his heroic moment.
And I have been playing since 1981!!! Gah! Thank you for this video, and let my failures as a DM enlighten you to the looser play of OSR!
That was a good “argument” from your son! Simple and made sense.
Going back and rewatching your vlogs (sometimes a 3rd or 4th time)... Realized you had the idea way back here that you led about doing one on wandering monsters. I know others have done it, but it's love to hear your take on this subject!
Ah yes, let me add that to my list, thanks!
Good content dude. I've been digging on your Winter's Daughter game. I remember teaching my friends to play in the 80's and they used to go strategize in the corner, thinking i was going to "cheat" if i knew their battle plan
Ha ha, that’s amazing. Thanks! I’m enjoying the Dolmenwood setting. Fairy l/fey stuff is some of my favorite fantasy lately.
I learned by myself when I was 12. I jumped into being the DM for a group of 2. Used the Black Box D&D game with the big red dragon
Awesome!
The new and easy to master dungeons and dragons! The rulebook from that box is incredible.
This is great, thanks.
Hobgoblins are 1+1HD; that puts them in the next category.
Classes are always treated as the next level up too, so a 1st Level Character Class is considered a 1+1HD for the Sleep spell.
Nope. Page B17 with the spell description says “lower level creatures will always be put to sleep before higher level ones. Any "pluses" are ignored (for example, 2 + 1 hit dice is treated as 2 hit dice). Creatures with less than 1 hit die are still considered as 1 hit die.” So hobgoblins should have been 1HD
@@BanditsKeep If that's how it's written the book.
My experience was very minimal with the Basic versions, I played one maybe two games, then it was all about AD&D. This is a defining trait of the era, the typos and dodgy examples; it's all part of the magic of the game.
I love playing the characters as individuals that have certain beliefs, quirks, likes and dislikes.
To play every fighter as a brutish killer would be no fun at all.
If I played every Thief as just a guy who steals stuff most parties would hate them. A Robin Hood or Grey Mouser is much more fun and interesting to play.
Clerics as you said should have a personality that fits with their order. They could easily become a problem for a party that goes against what they stand for.
I've had a situation where a character didn't trust my character because of some things I had done. He would never turn his back to me and had very little trust in me.
It did make for some funny jokes but didn't help the party much.
Good points
This is what I remember, great video. I too started in 81. Havn't gotten to play much since unfortunately
81’ was a good year! Have you tried playing online? I’m met a bunch of great people all over the world by playing online.
@@BanditsKeep no, I never knew it existed till yesterday...lol I havnt played since 85-86 ish. Do you have any recommendations? I like the old-school play but I'd still be a noob after not playing for so long
There are many Facebook groups where games are formed, look for 0SR in the title that will typically be a group that is into the older games or game styles at least
@@kearnsguitars2236 I was in a very similar spot.. loved D&D as a kid.. started with B/X, played AD&D too.. but only up to around '85/'86. A couple years ago I got interested again, and started following 'Looking For Game' posts on Reddit, wanting an OSR game.. eventually I responded to a post and we got a group of six together and have been playing weekly games for about a year and a half. Because it has way more players I caved and went for a 5e game.. not my preference, but it's a blast playing DnD again (online) with a good group of folks who have become pals.. and with our shenanigans, turns out the actual ruleset doesn't matter so much! Best of luck - hope you find a game!
@@mrpolomar7251 I'm hoping to find the same..I have the itch...haha
Late to the party, but this and the exploration video were great! I am planning on running my first b/x game soon and these videos are very helpful! I'm surprised they have such low view count!
Thank you!
"we learned from the book" - yes, the book that was a remake of that book that was created specifically because Gygax's rulebook wasn't suitable for humans.
OD&D was written for experienced war gamers - that’s for sure. Once you take that fact into consideration, and not compare it to a book written for non-gamers, or books written with years of reference to look back on, your statement becomes a bit off I’d say. I always find it funny when people attack OD&D - if it was as bad as you state the game would not have taken off like it did.
@@BanditsKeep I'm not saying OD&D rules were bad, but the rulebooks were horrible. Inconsistent, badly written, with many rules either very poorly explained, or not at all - if you didn't already know how to play the game, you were SOL, and JWF.
That's why TSR hired Holmes to write the basic rulebook that could be understood by humans, and he did such a great job, that the moldvay/cook/marsh edition followed, meant for people who prefered a true to its roots version of the game over the rules-heavy AD&D.
D&D was already selling like crazy before Holmes Volunteered to create basic - to his credit, he saw the “need” as the desire to play was great even outside wargamers
Many great points, yes we are DMs humans who can think and adapt not computers running strict rules programmes.
For sure
Really enjoyable video! Will be keeping an eye out for more!
Thank you!
Good video and a great discussion about how to run a game and conduct combat. When I was learning to play, it was the examples that were given in the books that helped me to learn and understand the rule. I just discovered your channel and I am enjoying your content. Keep up the good work sir.
Thanks 🙏🏻 I personally learn rules easier with examples.
The old school style of play fascinates me and since implementing it at my table i've had much more fun than when I ran 5e or 4e. I'd totally watch more of these casual discussion and thoughts videos as I want as many insights into old school play as possible.
Excellent! Thanks so much for watching and commenting.
I've been gaming for ... too many years. While I enjoy 5e, I also have a habit of ignoring some rules I don't like. I've also been doing this long enough to have played a lot of games, and some of the most fun I've had is in pre-3rd edition D&D.
Hobgoblins had 1+1 HD IIRC so probably they counted as more than 1 hit die for the sleep spell. Probably the same as if 2 HD gnolls.
Yes, that’s how they interpreted it but the actual spell states that the plus one goes away so it should’ve been 1 HD each, but hey what can you do LOL
I learned from Mentzer's basic. The main differences from that were (1) I actually did assume you could pick the targets of the sleep spell since it wasn't clear, and (2) our clerics were assumed to gain spells purely through faith and the details of their religion were not really discussed. Otherwise the same general approach I think. We never used the "caller" idea, though it was mentioned as something that many groups would have (perhaps because there weren't many of us).
I found that, even today, generally when wandering through a dungeon one of the players will “take charge” so while the caller is not some thing that is official I still think it happens in an unofficial way.
It feels like the players really ARE in a dangerous and ominous place. In comparison, modern rpgs feels like a complex boardgame.
I'm just discovering osr games. What I like the most is that ther is no balance. Just a dangerous world where you can find creatures much powerful than you, and you better run, negotiate, or whatever, because your character can actually die easily.
And the simplicity of the rules, that relies more on the creativity of the players and the GM.
This is a good point!
Hey Daniel, I've forgotten to ask you this, but what do you use to do your side-by-side/screen-shot videos? I'm gearing up for a full read-thru and don't exactly know what to use or how best to approach it. Thnx, and congrats on the 1000 subs mark!! 👍
I use OBS it’s free, simple to use and you can record and/or stream from it. Looking forward to the read-thru I’m guessing it will be BFRPG? That’s a fun system for sure.
@@BanditsKeep OBS? Guess I'm not an acronym guy. Lol
OBS is the name of the product 😊 obsproject.com
@@BanditsKeep Aww... thnx! 👍
Like your content a lot. Just stubbled onto your page.
Thank You!
Very interesting video Daniel. I have a question about how you handle morale. If the monsters fails a mirale check you made them flee and not turning back? Or do you give them the opportunity of regroup? Thanks
It very much depends on the situation, if the dungeon is the lair of the creatures and there are enough of them to regroup then I would say they would eventually come back yes. If they are wandering monster then probably not. That being said, it would not likely be anytime soon.
[Self-Obligatory Channel-boosting Comment]
🙏🏻
Alignment play is definitely missing from new systems. It's there, but a lot of folks seem to gravitate to murder hobo too quickly in these new systems. Or at least they are sorta structured and written that way by implication. Thx
Agreed
I've always wondered what the players of Black Dougal & Fredrick were doing in the background... feverishly rolling up new characters to join the others, would have been neat to see that addressed in the rule book.
Ha ha! Good point
I would love to see a short film (a la the Gamers) using these examples as script.