Hey, no argument there. Anything like that really falls under the griefing category for me and I just want people to embrace that it's not going to change and that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world. People can show up and absolutely ruin you, no skill required. My cope is just trying to encourage people to learn from the experience, especially if it's a very shitty one. These games offer very unique play in so many categories and I want to embrace all of them, even when they're poorly balanced.
@@zawarudo8991 People playing a game with their friend, therefore you grief them. The host has built to counter players like you, therefore you get mad and grief them. You objectively just want to punch down on players worse than you. You want to worsen their experience objectivlely with that mindset.
One of the best memories of souls is just playing together with my friends, when suddenly we get invaded by a gigatwink on High Wall, start of the game. He is nigh immortal, has so much resources and even great armor, but we manage to keep him from the host by utilizing some stairs. I fall first, but since we're friends on vc I get resummoned, as a cleric I heal the party. This invader has maximum amount of estus and everything but we manage to whittle him down, resummoning and cleric heal as needed. We even get him to use a divine blessing! Can you imagine? So we fight some more, keep him in the stairs, and through a brilliant manouver by one of us we manage to get him stuck in the meatgrinder, still in the stairs! Three of us just wailing on him, and he falls at last. Without a word spoken, we all do point down in sync as he dies. He trashtalks on our steam profiles, accusing of gank. We trashtalk back, mocking him for the divine blessing. I suspect this is the kinda sadist twink that would revel in misery, but in truth I'm not angry at all at this guy. He felt like a boss we all needed to strategize to take down in a gruelling battle of attrition.
If you really appreciated this gigatwink so much, why did you point down at him? If I appreciate someone, I will cheer for them, I'll clap for them, I'll bow to them. I'll certainly never point down at them. That's a huge contradiction and I hope you're aware of it.
@@ETBrooD The GigaTwink was the bad guy in this scenario, at least to me. In a hard fought battle against unfair odds I can't blame anybody for being a little bm.
@@PedroKing19 Sure, but the logic still doesn't check out. If a fight results in one of the most fun experiences I've ever had in a game, why would I show disrespect after the fight?
@@ETBrooD You can't just tell me something I do is a contradiction without understanding the situation. No, you don't understand me or anything I do just because you played the same game I did 8 years ago, or because we both share an affinity for a certain mechanic in this game. Instead of taking on an accusatory tone, try being inquisitive, or at the very least just neutral. This is of course presupposing you aren't just here to call me out without heed. Despite my better judgement I will engage you in good faith, here's my attempt at providing some extra context or new perspectives on the situation: To be fair, the guy _was_ a total jerk. Only there to stomp newbies, and he'd no doubt point down as well even though this is what he came for. I didn't like him in the moment, the appreciation is a product of remeniscing. It wasn't even necessarily about the guy, but moreso what we, my friends and I, had to do to get him down, our shared antagonsim for him. But even after all this, I don't think a point down or a dung pie or any such disrespect of someone is necessarily a sign of non-appreciation. It's all an extension of the game. If I met him in real life I hope we could share a beer and laugh at the situation, but one must suspend niceties for the sake of the game. After all, there would be no invasion without wanton agression, and we could not meet his violence without malice of our own. Well, even if you disagree with the sentiment I hope you can at least see my stance on this.
I think the real issue with so-called twinking in Elden Ring isn't that people bring late game gear to lower levels, it's just that there are certain pieces of gear that are super busted at all ranges. About a year ago I made a video about how twinking isn't the issue in Elden Ring as much as general balance and how Fromsoft decided to gate certain pieces of content. I pointed to stuff like the Dragon Halberd that's been capable of one shotting vigor lenient hosts since launch, or how they put the best status effect in the game on a rapier of all weapons, or just everything surrounding rot pots / consumables in general. To this day I consistently get comments from people who completely missed the point, either still yelling about how anyone who is a twink is a cheater and a legitimately bad person IRL, or on the opposite end of the spectrum defending a playtstyle that just makes absolutely everyone involved miserable. I think in general people's brains are too poisoned from how twinks used to be, because in Elden Ring they really aren't a problem like they have been in the past, and like you said there's something so incredibly special about making a level specific character in a Fromsoftware game. Anyways, just wanted to say that this is really an excellent video, been really enjoying your thoughts on a lot of general Elden Ring topics as of late.
Exactly! Dragon Halberd at low levels is as abusive as double naginatas at meta level for example. FS actually unintentionally created a moral and practical reason to twink wich is the introduction of overleveled phantoms. People can't really complain about twinking since overleveled phantoms are basicly that but also get to keep their levels. If twinking is a problem for someone then overleveled are that problem + more and should be a priority, not twinks
Twinks in Elden Ring are a HUGE problem. If you're playing the game normally and a twink invades you and your friend, you're dunzo. It's game over. And it absolutely sucks, there's no fun to be had whatsoever. And they can just invade you again soon after because you're still in the same zone. I'm actually considering doing a taunter's tongue solo playthrough to demonstrate how common twink invaders are.
@@miguelnascimento2847 Not if the host and phantom are normal players. I've seen what happens plenty of times, they're dunzo. They have a 10% chance of winning if they're lucky, 0% if not.
Jon I've been watching souls content for probably 6 or 7 years now, and I want you to know your recent videos, and this one in particular, are my favorite souls related videos anyone has produced! (although Saint Riots Powerful Poking Partizan video sits at a comfortable tie for first lol, his anguished howl at the end obliterates me every time) You are one of startlingly few people I've encountered who really seems to fully understand what these games are about and how to enjoy them for what they are, for better and worse, without reservation. It's so refreshing. So many people who spend time with this game become frustrated with it, which only makes sense considering the game does little but throw conflict at you -- but, that's the point! This is a game with friction, as you aptly put it, it wouldn't be the same without that. As a consequence, the most important stat for a good time in Elden Ring is an IRL stat: Humility. So please, please maintain this wonderful mindset of yours and continue to share it as fully as you can! This is the kind of insight and perspective the community desperately needs! In fact if I might make a suggestion, when eventually you feel you've covered most of what you want to, I would simply love to see a long Elden Ring PVP difficulty summary video from you, where you reflect on the main takeaways of your videos on the topic and tell us what you think and feel about it as a whole. And in the meantime, I'd love to hear more on your personal code of ethics! One invader to another, one person to another; you have my sincere respect Jon. Thanks for the videos!
That's high praise! Saint is actually the guy that helped me get acclimated to invasions in Dark Souls 3. His learn to invade videos and how he made builds that shirked meta trends were really eye-opening for how I approach PVP. I'm gonna keep on keepin' on as long as people will have me, thanks for the very, very kind words!
The broader problem in Elden Ring's multiplayer isn't new, and I think it does a disservice to the issue to talk about Elden Ring in isolation, or even just limited to Souls games. Elden Ring is just an insanely easy game to grief in, full stop.
Twinks contribute to the invasion arms race that ruins the invasion system. FromSoft accelerated the arms race by forcing every natural invasion to be at least a 2v1 and by lowering the player limit to 4. You have a legit invader Vs a legit host. Legit invader will probably win since invaders tend to be a little more skilled than PvErs. Then you get a legit invader Vs a legit host and his legit phantom or blue. It’s a much closer fight now. After that, it’s a legit invader Vs a legit host and their overleveled phantom. This is insanely common in Elden Ring, and a legit invader has little to no actual way of overcoming an overleveled phantom if they’re using legit early/mid-game gear. Overleveled phantoms have unscaled defenses, higher damage, more healing resources, better healing resources, more offensive options, and are with another player (the host). On top of that, a blue can still come in and support the host and phantom, too. Blues are no longer “protectors of the weak” that even the odds in an invasion, they’re effectively stupid bullies contributing to the problem who aren’t even aware of the problem. Now the invader needs a way to level the playing field against overleveled phantoms, so what does the invader do? He twinks. Now he’s got a much better shot at beating that overleveled phantom. But the moment a twinked invader matches up against a legit host or a legit host with a legit phantom, it’s gonna be an easy landslide victory for the invader. Now those legit hosts/phantoms will need a way to overcome the twinked invaders, and they’ll either overlevel the phantom, they’ll Twink too, or a mixture of both. So now you’ve got a twinked invader Vs a twinked host and an overleveled phantom. Host already has an advantage on his own due to uncapped healing resources, now the invader is at a major disadvantage no matter how you look at it. And if you happen to be a legit invader facing a Twink and an overleveled phantom? Good luck keeping your dignity and your sanity in this failure of an invasion system. This arms race existed in DS3, but wasn’t as bad as it is in Elden Ring because you could always invade a solo host. So if you happened to get a bad invasion, you can brush it off an match against a more fair/balanced matchup. You could also get another invader as support in DS3, too. In Elden Ring, you’re realistically never gonna get another invader to help you unless the opponent is intentionally allowing you to with the Taunter’s Tongue. There were also many more legit players that you could match with, and overleveled (not unscaled) phantoms in DS3 were more manageable. I’m Elden Ring, FromSoft made the genius decision to remove solo invasions, basically forcing all invaders to optimize if they ever want to win. So after over a year of Elden Ring being out, the only invaders you really have anymore are the skilled Twinks or the really skilled but rare legit players. It’s really hard for your average player to get into Elden Ring invasions because of this crappy recipe From threw together. The only way From can really fix it is by actually balancing overleveled phantoms (which are “downscaled” but not enough). Make them weaker than hosts, if they’ve gotten to that high of a level, they should be good enough to handle themselves. Give specific defense brackets at certain level breakpoints if From can’t figure out how to lower base defenses. Make their damage equal or less than that of the host. Then they’ll actually be balanced. They still have more heals, they still have better heals, and they still have more gear. That’s balanced. Add the ability to always have another invader or increase the player limit to 5 or 6. With those 2 fixes, twinking is no longer a “necessary evil” and now is actually something people can look down on.
Yup if a phantom is higher than the allowed multiplayer formula they should be downscaled to the host's hp/defenses, they can keep all the spells and weapons
U Write this like overlvl‘d Phantoms Are impossible to kill, but specially in this meta they easier to kill, before nerf I would always go dual GS on overlvl‘d Phantom’s and kill via jumping Attack or crouch poke but now with all those ashes that truecombo into themselves u just need one of those or use anything with high burst dmg for range punish on cast and having a misericorde became extremely important for me because I can just backstab them if they wanna cast one of there plenty buffs or heals and they still only have about ~2k+ Hp
@@mattiasxxxx7096 I think we play at vastly different levels. An overleveled at RL80 isn’t much of an issue. An overleveled at RL10 is effectively impossible unless you bring some bullshit like Stormhawk, Dragon Halberd, Flaming Strike (at that early in the game is definitely OP) or late game craftables. Just because there are broken tools to deal with something doesn’t mean all of those things are balanced. All of them need tuning, especially overleveled phantoms.
@@Rexis102 Yea I No longer invade at RL10, only when I was lvl‘ing up, but at that lvl are there even any good Hosts and ofc pvp at Rl10 is unbalanced af, because someone 10 lvl‘s higher or lower could get matchdup with eachother , which is a huge difference at that lvl, u could use grafted sword ash or +10 stat physik, the scoreseals and easily get the upperhand with gear u get 1h into the game
Fromsoft will never be able to fully prevent twinking. People will always figure out ways to abuse the mechanics. Its just part of the experience at this point. As a souls vet with tons of hours in both pve and pvp, it can be extremely frustrating when you are invaded by a twink, and despite clearly being more skilled, they are hard carried by their gear. If you are using an honest build, often times you have to land 10 hits to do the same amount of damage as 2-3 hits from the invader. Couple that with the invader having maximum estus and victory is essentially futile. This unfortunately can drive new players away from trying pvp altogether, since they see it as unfair (which it is in these circumstances)
Honestly, I do wish they'd just pay more attention to the balance of the game at all levels. I don't need invasions to be fair or to not have access to good gear, I just want the game to be more palatable at every stage of the experience instead of leaving the door wide open for anyone with a mind for exploitation. I love twinks at their best and I embrace them at their worst, but I wouldn't complain if FromSoft wanted to do more to narrow the gap.
"If you are using an honest build, often times you have to land 10 hits to do the same amount of damage as 2-3 hits from the invader." My problem with this critique is that it's basically the Elden Ring experience anyway, with bosses at basically all levels. Invaders are just another "boss" to learn to get around. Or you die, run back from bonfire/grace, get souls/runes, and off you go again. The inconvenience is way too hyped up. It's just a game really.
@@ianwilliams2632 bosses create predictable openings for counter-attacks. Player strategy is heavily gear-dependent and easily adjusted to player habits. a twink invader will also often have tools to force the host to approach while lower-level hosts tend to not have many spells or ranged options that are at all threatening. They're not bosses, they're bullies
When I decided to try and engage in multiplayer in this game on my third run (I played completely offline on first run and only summoned a handful times on my second one), my first invasion ended up being such a rancid experience for me. I started as a deprived, got a broadsword and some clothes with all the runes I had early on, then went back to the first step to try summoning without so much as having afforded a level up yet. I summoned a phantom who seemed to be even newer than me, they were also deprived but still rolling with only the starting gear, and they also made more mistakes and took a lot of damage. When the twink invader showed up, my summon died instantly and I was left to fight them alone. I had four flasks, while having to deal with the invader poisoning me and repeatedly switching weapons for mix ups and ranged attacks. I did a fairly decent job imo since we fought for several minutes and I was able to count the invader chugging up to five times, while dealing with poison (I had only one bolus at that point, i used it and then he procced it again). It was frustrating and miserable, I didn't even have any way of catching them off guard because I only had my default square off and I had never used a straightsword in my two previous runs, let alone in a multiplayer context. At the end he pointed down as though he pulled off a difficult feat by killing me even though I only had four flasks that didn't even heal my entire health. Ever since, I've hated that I can't be invaded unless I summon. I didn't want to wade super deep into multiplayer, I just enjoyed having encounters in ds3 that ranged from playful, to more proper duels, to cancer. In Elden Ring, my experience has made me feel as if invaders are so much more predisposed to being assholes because they do tend to deal with ganks and being outnumbered. It didn't put me off it entirely, but I ended up not summoning until I leveled up more and had options, because fuck dealing with early game Elden Ring twinks. It's annoying and miserable and I hate people who do it. I'll stick to invading and being invaded at higher levels.
Yeah, your experience is pretty much the rule in low brackets. A friend and I started characters together, and we had a dude in castle morn using the st Trina's sword and sleep pots. He even tried to bait us into aggroing all the misbegottens in the dead body pile lmao. We ended up dealing with him bc I invade a lot so I'm not bad at pvp, but I was a bit surprised at how someone was invading the lvl 20/+2 bracket with those tools, and also a fuckton of flasks. It's quite scummy. At least the lvl 50+ bracket is pretty fun.
yep, the first invasion I got in elden ring was a twink. Me and my friend were playing as normal new characters (not my first character, I made a new one to run the game with him and actually have fun with my friend instead of being overlevelled and trivializing the pve), but the dude who invaded us came with a the scarlet rot rapier with poison infusion, I remember him barely landing a hit on me but due to the latency's "ghost hits" through my rolls he was able to proc both his poison and scarlet rot on me, then he just run away like a coward and waited for us to die by it. we literally stopped fighting after he procced the poison + rot in both of us bc he refused to engage with us, while also having more estus flasks than both me and my friend (or at least just me bc of the halved flasks, I dont remember how many times he healed). Absolute cancer, no wonder my friends only play exclusively in seamless co op since you cant get invaded there.
I invade, and i have twinked before in DS3. Twinking is the invader's version of ganking. They are equally disgusting and boring. I was running on a new character in stormveille, and invader with dual vykes and rot pots annhilated my summons in seconds. I held my own to an extended period because he was just a bad player with OP gear for that lvl. I almost had him because of a surprise parry from my rapier, but the damage wasn't enough to finish him off. As a twink he had more flasks and more effectiveness healing per chug. If a new player goes through that experience they won't be thinking, thats cool i want to be like him. Their thought would be that's bullshit cuz it is. I don't mind twinking or ganking, they're all just part of a whacky multiplayer game. They've never been fair games, but doesnt change the fact that these practices are boring and scummy.
WHICH IS WHY THEY EXIST. and they willalways be in these games. bc myasaki and his team know its not about fairness all the fcking time. the world, or other inhabitants of it can be really freaking mean sometimes. to such an extend that there is literally nothing you can do go face them. UNLESS you use the same things against them. you need to start understanding the rules here..
@@Crit-Multiplier don't justify bad sportsmanship as if it was part of the game's design. Twinking was 100% not part of the vision of past games, and that's why each consequent game has had measures put in to avoid it or quell it. Ganking is equally repulsive, but they just missed the mark with the design of invasion systems in ER. Pretty sure their next entry will attempt to deviate from the current systems
"Twinking is the invader's version of ganking. They are equally disgusting and boring."" this It's almost similar to smurfing in other competitive games that you can smurf in. It's just cringe. I can admit it is nuanced though, like the video goes over
Before watching, just wanting to leave my brief thought: I have a somewhat low level character who is a Soldier of Godrick cosplay. I mostly show up and try to befriend hosts and show them hidden secrets in the areas if they're kind to me. I primarily use fists/greatsword type weapons to fit the cosplay, but I have a much more powerful set of weapons/items I use if the hosts/summons are being really toxic. I think it's good to be prepared to face a 3v1 made up of overleveled phantoms and endgame equipment, but to restrict yourself when facing actually newbies.
I love that sort of play and I love that people can do all sorts of goofy things with invading. This video is really about people's negative perceptions of twinking and how it doesn't have to be a bad thing even at its worst. Even when it's absolute annihilation, there is something to take away from the experience. It's all subjective, but I really want to give folks perspective on just how interesting every part of these games can be.
@@emotionaljonxvx I honestly align with the thought that as long as you're not actually being mean (send hateful messages, pointing down/t bagging, acting better than thou because you beat someone at a game) any tactic is fine. All we lose by dying in game is a little bit of wasted time (unless you have reached endgame and accidentally invade original Leyndell and get killed. In that case your runes are lost forever unless you switch to ng+)
In the video the stats are in the thumbnail, level 10 with +3/+1 weapons. There are invasions at pretty much any level provided your weapon upgrade is properly matched. From my experience, the higher level you get, the more intense invasions will be.
Great video as always. Nothing here I really disagree with. I do think a potential solution could be to make a level cap, at like 100 and change invasions range back to infinity up. I’m usually at 60, arguably twinking, but if 100 is the cap I’d just play there and I think most people would because most people would just be at that level. There would be some problems and twinking would still happen but I’m pretty sure it would be drastically cut it back. Also “toddler power monsters” lmao,I’m adding that to my rotation of insults
"Twinking" aka optimizing your build for your level bracket is necessary in Elden Ring in order to have a chance to defeat overleveled password summons. I wish I didn't have to do it, but I do. It sucks for actual low-level co-op lobbies, but it sucks even more to have to drain 14 estus from a phantom that takes 12 damage per hit.
Depends what your calling twink or optimized, it could just as easily be being bad, salty, an asshole, or any combination. I made a comment on this video that explains this observation you should give me your opinion on it.
Password summons legit might be the worst thing fromsoft has ever done to the multiplayer balance wise, hell the 2v1s/3v1s wouldn't even be so bad if we were still using the old 10 levels + 10% shit
I think the difference in perspective on twinking depends on the perspective we’re discussing from. No I’m not talking the host’s viewpoint vs the invader’s - I’m talking about individualized perspective vs community perspective. Twinking is a tragedy of the commons issue. Without any external forces affecting the outcome, the individuals all end up doing the same thing at the expense of the larger community. In this situation, it isn’t shepherds overgrazing, it’s players accruing disgusting amounts of power using samey gear and samey builds to samey results, and the larger community suffering the effects of those players’ tactics. Whether we agree on a definition of twinking, whether we agree it’s even a big issue, the results are pretty plain. It *is* harmful to the experience, and while I think complaints can get overblown (the same way all complaints about invasions can get overblown), I don’t think it’s a stretch that we’ve taken a big big step back from DS3. (And twinking was still p gross in that game too!) Newer players get the worst experience of all, and the inevitable result is more and more of them turning away from the game, or mirroring that same hostility to players they meet and potentially causing them to turn away from the game as well. Meanwhile, the playerbase gets tired of seeing the same sh!t in every invasion, then they get tired of seeing the same complaints about said samey sh!t, and eventually everyone gets bored or sick of the stagnant toxicity and moves on with their lives. We CAN aspire to more, and I argue we should. Not because twinking is individually bad or unfun, or that twinking makes you a bad person individually, but because we recognize how diversity of experience is good for us AND for everyone else in the long run. Maybe there is a place for twinks at the end of the day - but they sure shouldn’t be skewing the bell curve this much. And unless there are external factors trying to correct for twinking (which is what the complaints and community/in-group policing are ultimately about), the tragedy of the commons will continue. Easy mode gear with easy mode tactics, making the game duller and more repetitive until that’s left is ten lifers throwing rot pots at each other in a barren, overgrazed field.
I don't think Elden Ring needs an easy mode, but Palworld like sliders and crossplay. That way, everyone can play how they want to play without worrying about dumb stuff like this. For people who want overleveled or overgeared characters, invading them, they can have that. The people who want to play multiplayer with friends with no invaders they can have that. I don't see how this makes the game worse.
Twinking, at its worst, is pretty cancer to deal with to be honest. I can absolutely see how a new player would think it's bullshit (it is). An unbalanced game however is, ironically, pretty fun. But it's a spectrum, if it's too cancer it very very quickly goes from fun to frustrating and boring. Elden Ring could have done more to limit the degree to which you can twink. If you are a host in limgrave, against a proper twink, you stand very little chance. I have started a 2v2 taunter's tongue PvE playthrough recently in preperation for the DLC. One thing I did is I gave myself 99 of every bolus because one thing that's really boring, annoying and obnoxious is rot and other status effects. I simply refuse to lose to a shitter because he rotted me. Otherwise, it's a completely, honest playthrough (aside from me pretty much dunking on all the invaders because I don't shower). On the flip side, I wish you talked more about the downscaling in this game. You mentioned how the multiplayer system pretty much transfered as is from DS3, but that's not entirely true. The downscaling in Elden Ring is utterly ridiculous. I don't know if this game uses the same equation as DS3 or not, but the result is definitely much worse than in DS3. In Elden Ring, """"downscaled"""" phantoms are more cancer than any twink could ever dream of being. They pretty much keep their defences, they keep their status buildup (which is why an overleveled yellow procs any status in 2 hits), their damage is still very high and their mana bar practically doesn't get cut down much at all. Invaders right now are pretty much forced to min/max the fuck out of their build to even have a chance of overcoming the overleveled phantoms. I tried invading on my second playthrough as I was going through the game and the phantom would take damn near 15 hits to kill, while he killed me in 2. And since this is L2 Ring, they get to spam to their heart's desire (mages too). Fromsoft could have done much more to prevent this state of things, but here we are.
Elden Ring has been my first fromsoft game, so I decided trying a solo taunters tongue run to se how things were like before with solo invasions, I absolutely suck at pvp so I got my ass beat up, like a lot, but I enjoyed the challenge, and mainly I dont mind twinks at all, fairplay you progressed the game to get the gear you need by handicapping yourself. The problem arises when some guy shows up with 2 weapons that are unique per run, and then realize they are not even good at pve, they just get some weird crap airdropped to them witn no effort of their own.
great video as always emotional jon, i find myself min maxing broken builds at the lowest level so i can to make deathless invasions, i 100% understand what you are talking, great job :D
Well said, and if I can add, well spoken! I like this types of videos to keep me occupied when I’m walking the dog, or to kill time in my day with my earphones, so I hope I see some more from you, subbed.
I know it’s kinda different but I’d love to hear your opinion on the history of buffs and nerfs in souls games. Usually, PvE gets the short end of the stick there since PvP is where “balance” is most necessary. I guess I’m just sad Stars of Ruin is mid in PvE now lol
As much as PVE isn't my niche, I'd be interested in exploring the balancing impact of things intended or maximized in PVP vs their use in PVE. I truly adore that PVE and PVP builds can be the same in these games and I'd like to delve into the nuances and where it's at its best and worst. Thanks for the suggestion!
The way you interpret the experience is what you make of it. When I got invaded by a pre-nerf Double Vykes dude on my first run and got malded into oblivion, my reaction simply was "lol", and summoned more people in the hopes of fighting them again. Other individuals react as if it was the end of the world and a hate crime was commited against them. Maybe some players are just very soft :P
I think it's a lot of very new players who are looking to be dismissive of someone who rocked them. Like, sure, it sucks that the game can sometimes be incredibly unbalanced but that's also a big part of the fun. I see a lot of players who are just anti-competitive and really don't like invasions in any capacity, so any opportunity to dismiss the mechanic or set their own rules for how it has to work helps justify their mindset. I suspect you're right that some players are just very soft.
In my personal opinion the fact that Elden Ring is a open world game kinda changes the definition of a twink for me. If you just explore a bit in Limgrave and Liurnia and maybe Caelid which are all easily accessible you can find a lot of very powerful equipment very early on. You don't really need endgame gear in Elden Ring to be quite strong early on, i mean you get fcking Storm stomp in the very first ruin, you can essentially start out with dual katanas if you pick Samurai and sprint to the cave to get the Uchi and then you can put bloody slash on both by buying the lost aow in Weeping and dublicate it in roundtable, or put it on two straightswords for early bleed psss and there's a lot more examples. So in my opinion unless you are using stuff like scarlet rot weapons/rot pots or certain very powerful spells/incants you aren't really much of a twink tbh.
I very much agree with this sentiment and I'll be making a video on it hopefully soon. What even defines a level-appropriate invader in a game where you can go to 4 different zones in the first 20 minutes. There are so many options that it becomes impossible to have any meaningful expectation, so you have to come prepared for the worst or accept a big risk of getting caught off-guard. It's an interesting system for sure, but it's not always consistent.
scarlet rot and poison are really the only problematic things at low levels since you can't have a decent way to remove them and they are really easy to apply. Other than that yeah, anyone can get a really good setup for pvp in less than 30 min of starting a new char just by gathering some flasks and elemental infusions like sacred blade or flamming strike on a weapon of choice. 3 people running a simple setup that is easy to aquire should be able to deal with a single invader if they are not braindead. Problem with twinking in other souls games was mostly the damage able to be dealt, in ER you can achieve that in early game areas so it's not that much of a problem anymore
@@miguelnascimento2847cure poison is sold at round table hold for 1000 runes and costs 7 fp and 10 fai. A sacred seal costs 800 runes. If you go into multiplayer in limgrave where a Miranda flower can proc it, what’s the difference when an invader does it?
@@TheAzul_Indigo that's a fair point, I didn't consider it. I guess rot is the only problematic thing. Also remembered that you can get poison mist from the lake in caelid and the poison incantation in the weeping peninsula so from those alone it's fair game
I don't think there is a debate tbh. Since invasions are 2v1 to 3v1 in almost every case, twinking is fine. I have like 100 hours of invasions with my twink character on ER, and from the experience I have, most of the invasions are against an overlevel phantom and a twink host. When I am matched with a true pve host who has basic equipement, I kill the phantoms and have a fair play weapon in my bag to fight the host. The only thing I don't do is using Cheat engine or a friend to give me stuff. If I want an item, I go get it solo, and I think that's what every player who want to twink should do.
I don't necessarily have a horse in this race, but I think twinks aren't really anything to get worked up over. If hosts can kill every single enemy in an area and then set up the most perfect gank squad known to man, I say fair game. Although I will say that anyone who uses the chainsaw exploit has the lightest nuts on the planet, even more so if they have a macro set up for it.
This does make me think - How much of the pvp discourse in Elden ring is invader limitation centric? Invaders (who have one job to do in invasions) seemingly are expected to have so many different rules of conduct, limitations, things they do to fight with one hand behind their back and only using their nose to push buttons, while hosts can do whatever they feel like. Ultimately, this topic feels like it comes down to people wanting to restrict or tell other people they can't do something cause they feel it's unfair as they lost to it. Never mind the unfair bits they themselves engage in. In other words: Rules for thee - but not for me. Much in the same vein, I think a common thread that all sides of the pvp discourse here have is nobody likes or wants to be told what to do. Or how to play a game. People being advised to "turn off multiplayer" (or given any number of sound advice) must feel like getting told to play in the kiddy pool instead of the adults side. Players fundamentally do not like being told what to do in their player experience by other players, no matter how legit the advice is. But are perfectly fine with telling other people what to do. Especially if there is a social framework where the party giving orders can be labeled as the "legit, good people" VS "the scoundrels and bad people." Again, it's rules for thee - but not for me. Gamer culture is easily identifiable by a want to be the ones the rule book supports, as one who co-signs or writes the rules has the ultimate benefits in anything. They are the god-mode tools in a sense. Write the rules others follow, and nobody will notice if you yourself break a few. I think fundamentally, so many players being used to having the ability to eat their cake and have it too just can't handle being subject to rules that they cannot alter to be the most beneficial to themselves with no drawbacks. Many players are used to being king of the playground they are dropped off into...and not just another roamer who can get bowling pinned if someone so feels like it. And this problem of "MY" power fantasy Vs that which fights back and makes one look like a chump, coming into a clash seems to be somewhere close to the root of this whole dilemma. It's an alien experience, which has no regard for peoples feelings on it. So how bout that, ye lowly Tarnished? Emboldened by thy flame of ambition! Or in other words - I can think of few things that suit the feel of the game world better than this kind of brutal dethroning of the players. Turning them not into Lords, but mere lowly Tarnished that fight among themselves for scraps of power. Less them playing a game, and more the game playing them as it were.
Very insightful! Everyone loves kicking ass and hates getting their ass kicked, and so many people are completely immune to the hypocrisy inherent to that mentality. If there's one thing I want to accomplish with these videos, it would be to give people the perspective necessary to appreciate all aspects of a game that's willing and able to push back.
@@emotionaljonxvx Most players like to zoom in and focus just on their own experience. Which is perfectly fine. Problem is when it comes to discussing balancing or other topics in a game it tends to bloom into factionalism and straw manning. Where the conversation shifts away from the topic of balance into proving anyone who does not support an argument or offers counter claims must be morally, intellectually and as human being inferior and must be stomped into the ground. Not only bested, but humiliated so badly they never come back. Basic Fandom problems, in other words. Where who is right is morally superior and who is wrong is the crazy inferior people. Words like love/hate/etc getting slung around, so casually synonyms such as like/dislike fall to the wayside. Very few players are interested in balance for all above balance for I, and even fewer are interested in considering an opposing side's argument when discussing said topic. It's always extremes, too. Makes civil discussions on anything very hard. I definitely like your way of going about it as you try to stick to the matter at hand, considering differing opinions, while offering your own opinion. Nuanced discussion is much more interesting than the Redditor hyperbole that feels like it's everywhere.
Just so you know even though I personally don't like twinking I absolutely love fighting them myself with my prior pvp knowledge it genuinely feels like fighting a randomly spawning miniboss. I'll usually only bring in another summon since I know most invaders absolutely hate solos and I don't want to be sever blocked lmao.
Absolutely love this video and its conclusion. The thing that got me into invading was doing randoms coop a lot and I couldn't defend hosts against twinks. I decided I needed to embrace it and to get better at PvP by invading others. I just want to stress how difficult invading can be on that side too especially in Elden Ring with the amount of attacks that are present (including ashes of war). As someone that had zero invasion experience I found myself getting beat a LOT of the time, but I wanted to get better so I continued Overcoming the adversities and getting better at game mechanics truly made me appreciate just how multiplayer works in From Software games, but invading does become about power. I understood specific build making better now that I have a few lower level invader builds to invade with, though I try to go easy on hosts that don't have twink phantoms because I adore the interactions just as much. That said, twink phantoms are definitely a problem just based on high levels (talking a minimum of 75-100 levels above the host) as the damage that they do is insane, so I feel like invader twinks had to make more tailored builds that lean towards heavy damage on lower levels to compensate for that too ...it is extremely satisfying to nuke people with Scarlet Aeonia at RL40 though
Each time i watch a video about this topic, it always boil down to : 1- A comparison to previous souls games (usually favoring ER) 2- A statement that the game works as intended (usually followed by a "suck it up kind of argument) Theses two do not mean the game is perfect and without flaws. It can still be improved and I think we should discuss it.
I agree, I don't hate them, and its hard to be mad at twinks when Elden Ring unlike the souls games is an open world game. On my first playthrough I got all the way to altus plateau, through Leyndell, and into mountaintops before I even fought radahn or rykard. I just kind of missed some things until I was way over leveled. I was about level 60-70 and doing invasions with gear from mountaintops as I played through the game, does that count as twinking? Maybe but it's an open world game and that was just the order that I happened to tackle it in. When the game world is so open in the order that it lets you progress, you cant be super ass mad about people doing it in a different order and getting "late game" gear earlier.
Well said. If I'm level 50 in Stormveil and get invaded by a level 50 who's been through Altus, are they twinking? Should they somehow be accountable for catering to my experience? The game isn't set up for it to work any other way and I wish people would embrace that instead of being dismissive.
100% facts right here!! Couldn't have said it better myself. Everything in From games is meant to be a challenge...its the only reason we always come back!!! Not because we masochists, but because will live for the sense of accomplishment! New to your channel...subscribed ..and I will be back!🙏🏻
Most twinks nowadays will kill a new player in an honest fight, as they just have better fighting experience. However, twinks also get access to the whole list of ashes of the war, best flask tears, more healing, all the statuses, All the pots, and an understanding of mechanics and level design newer players don't have. I have yeeted so many Gank squads off cliffs because they did not know how Radahn gravity pull work, and twinks can leverage that fact. The cloaking veil alone get so many newer players killed because they run headfirst into a gank because the other dude is invisible. I do not know how to fix it without making invading impossible, or completely unenjoyable. All I do know, is that twinks get t-bagged when I kill them.
Pro tips: As an invader, block everyone in the session after you kill a phantom to stop the running twink host from resummoning their friend(s) A DC counts as a win, some would argue even better Try to find some mercy in your soul for obviously dogwater new players, I like to kill the phantom, and if the host overcomes the challenge alone be it a field boss or many enemies, drop something, like runes or weapons
I loved bloodborne twinking. Bl43 with +10 weapons and 25% gems. I mainly co-op'd cause invasions were much harder to get for me when return to yharnam isn't going on.
I also love Bloodborne twinking. I think having everyone have access to the same quality of heals and parrying being so strong regardless of level really helped to balance the game regardless of level or weapon.
I’m almost an exclusively solo host, but I’ll throw on way of the blue and taunters tongue for really chaotic fights, and I’m NOT twinking myself, I’m just playing thru the game. Stormveil castle is probably my second favorite legacy dungeon, but I CANNOT taunters tongue in there because all I get are twinks who are comically bad at the game but get carried so damn hard by how stacked they are. I almost never DC but when it’s rot pot spamming twinks with lightning nagakibas, I don’t feel bad
So if you ask me yes. Me (souls veteran) and my friend (completely new to souls) wanted to play Elden Ring in preparation for the dlc both with fresh characters and in the first 2-3 hours we got invaded like 10 times by the same 3 people, all of them were insanely tanky, had a lot of healing and used stuff that is borderline broken with either Scarlett rot or a basically one shot Stormcaller. Don't get me wrong min/max invasions are completely fine imo but as soon as your build is obviously Made to ruin the experience for others especially early game it's just bullshit.
It's one of those things where there's a line between griefing and twinking that everyone needs to draw for themselves to some extent. I like to think all invasions, good and bad, are a worthwhile part of the experience but I wouldn't blame someone for not loving a rot twink or one-shotter dogging them all night. Boring builds are the only real problem for me but I get why people make them. It's easy. I just think twinking can be so much more than broken or OP quick kills. Thanks for the comment
Yeah, it's a Wretch level 10 +3/+1 using Soreseal, Starscourge Heirloom, and Omensmirk with 1 level in strength to get 23 STR for the cleavers and the other levels into vigor
There's a premise your anecdote seems to imply that I take issue with: that new players getting obliterated by players they have no chance against and the game bending over backwards to cater to them is a true dichotomy. If you were to, say, get invaded in the Burg by an experienced yet honest player who beat you in a somewhat competitive fight, would that not have provided a similar experience? I had a similar first invasion to you - for all intents and purposes it was the same: getting one shotted by pyromancy in Undead Burg. My response was entirely different: I swore off online entirely and immediately disconnected my console from the internet. This was after I decided against what I saw was my better judgment to try playing online knowing that invasions could occur. So I fundamentally disagree about twinks or "appreciating" them in any capacity. All that experience really accomplished was to wall me off from the multiplayer ecosystem that players are intended to be part of in whatever minor or significant manner. And I've been on that side of the equation as well in DS3, the game in which they are arguably the least oppressive. I still felt way too powerful, and the invasion that brought that point home was against a four-player squad at the beginning of Undead Settlement. I just...kind of walked up and dismantled them one by one. They weren't exactly great players, but one of them was slinging Chaos Bed Vestiges at me. I don't know if Greatsword of Judgment is considered meta or tryhard at low levels but that's what I was using. Given how much the devs have tried to curtail and insulate players from them, they seem to agree that they aren't a necessary or healthy part of the game. They likely still exist because the most draconian measures against them would adversely affect other parts of the game they wish to preserve (though part of me would love if weapons came pre-upgraded like in Code Vein and they were forced in your inventory when you reached certain areas). I still firmly believe that the changes to solo invasions culminating in their effective removal in Elden Ring is an acknowledgement of that. At the core I guess I just disagree that players should embrace hate, spite, or other such feelings, and I certainly don't agree that the games are made to evoke them - I tend to avoid PvP in games in general because I don't want to participate in that cycle (I largely invested time in PvP in these games in order to be a better cooperator). I see these games more as a firm but well-meaning mentor who wants to bring out the best in you.
Alright, first off, thank you for the thoughtful comment. I know it takes a lot of effort to put this stuff down and I appreciate the engagement. To your points, this is a fundamental mischaracterization of what I'm trying to get across with this or any of my videos. I am not trying to imply in any way that my experience is at all representative of how other people have approached the game. It is, in fact, far from it and I understand that better than anyone. What I am trying to communicate is that the way people experience and conceptualize twinking, and invasions more broadly, are actively harmful to their experience. When people label invasions or twinking or ganking as disruptive or unintentional or decidedly unfun, it colors their perception of the game and what it should be, rather than what it is. It is a fundamental dismissal of an entire portion of the game based on preconceived notions of fairness or justice or whatever. When people treat any form of gameplay other than the one they approve of as inherently negative, it only serves to reinforce people's negative perceptions of those playstyles, and thus the cycle continues. What I am suggesting is that people open themselves to an experience they are not currently open to, especially if they are the sort of person who hates it. It doesn't take some special quality in a person to find value in these mechanics, nor does it require some sociopathic indifference to the happiness of others. Nothing about what I'm suggesting here is meant to evoke hatred beyond the hyperbolic animosity between invader and invaded as characters. The hatred I am suggesting people feel is not something I am suggesting should destroy them, but is a metaphor for turning a hatred of invaders into a hatred of losing. Not a literal, foaming-mouth vitriol that disallows fun, but an encouragement of motivation and perseverance. It is colorful language not meant to be universally quantifying. I don't think people shouldn't play the games offline and I don't think there's a right way to play. I'm trying to get people past their hang-ups on bad experiences and help them embrace a unique system that I don't want to see disappear. I'm not trying to paint invasions as fair or balanced in any meaningful way and I think it's fascinating that these game modes exist, therefore I want people to engage with them because I think they're worth it, blemishes and all. If every single counterpoint I get is "No one likes them so they shouldn't exist and I don't participate because I hate it" well that is exactly the thing I am arguing against. Your personal experience is your own and no one can take that from you. If you like it the way it is and have no qualms with any part of the game, then more power to you. But if you fundamentally hate something about the game, I am suggesting you really try to gain perspective on it before dismissing it entirely because you might otherwise cheat yourself out of a new way of thinking and enjoying the game. That was the case for me and I think it's perfectly reasonable that others might feel the same if they give it a chance. Sorry for such a long response, I just thought you had the most approachable way of telling me I'm wrong and thought maybe you'd get something out of it.
@@emotionaljonxvx To be clear, I'm not at all against invasions on principle and think they are a mechanic that should continue to exist and be improved upon, be it by From or by other developers. My disposition toward them is "neat conceptually, but I don't care for their execution." I just consider twinking as distinct from invasions and think it's perfectly fine to call it out as harmful to the experience for some since it creates a negative first impression that is not representative of them as a whole. With that in mind, I might see this video as an attempt to reverse that effect in your own way. If I could reframe your stance into something that is more agreeable (to me at least), would it be right to say that you believe players should avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater and try to make the best out of the experience as it exists? Fair enough if that's what you meant re: hatred. And while I don't mean to imply that invasions are primarily a sadist's affair, surely they are more attractive to those who are captivated by and wish to emulate displays of power. I understand that one should try to gain a better understanding of something before dismissing it or deciding you hate it, and maybe one like myself who has made a serious effort to do so over the years isn't exactly the target audience of a video like this - I imagine you at least accept that there are some who can and will come to an informed conclusion that it's not for them. In that sense, I suppose "I don't participate because I hate it" (with the caveat that one has given it an honest try) sans "it shouldn't exist" is what I'd go to bat for. And maybe you'd agree under the right circumstances. I appreciate the long response - it means you're substantively engaging with my points.
@@UnknownJudgment I think that is generally fair enough. Really, the important thing for me is that "twinking" is a low level build niche that doesn't have to be exclusively negative and they've done a lot to curb it's more harmful effects (though it and the whole of invasions still need work). A lot of people who hate invasions or are fine with them but consider twinks an exception I think come at it from the perspective that new or unprepared players deserve to not be invaded and that twinks are exploiting some sort of unintended mechanic, which I feel ignores exactly what invasions are. If FromSoft wanted to not let low level players get invaded, they could easily reinstate the level limit from Bloodborne or a host of other mechanics, but they instead chose to implement weapon level matchmaking, allow downscaled summons, and tether invasions to cooperation, which I think speaks volumes about how they want the issue addressed. Whether or not it's fair is a separate argument entirely and I think will be largely circumstantial, though I do think there's a strong argument for fairness being a very skewed way to view invasions. In either case, I want people to embrace what the game is doing by allowing unique methods of play and not shy away because they have negative experiences, because I feel people are missing out. If, like in your case, they are well-versed in all aspects of the mechanics and simply don't like them, they likely don't need me to convince them otherwise. The video is, as you suggest, intended for people whose minds have been made up prematurely. I get invading, like any PVP, attracts the worst of the gaming world and that makes it easy to view as a sea of shit, with twinking as the literal and metaphorical lowest of the low. I want to be a voice of reason that says "Hey, Sea of Shit rules" and also everyone should try every part of the game in earnest before they pass judgement. Appreciate the genuine engagement and hopefully I don't come off as obstinate or elitist because as much as I do think it's funny to act like a bastard I want everyone to get as much out of these games as possible.
too many new players do not want any struggle, and they do not understand the history behind the from soft games.. and thats a shame...I was a noob to from soft when I bought elden ring, but I did my research, learned the history and culture and now I love the struggle
Endless pots, finished bleed builds, and rapid firing crossbows with rot/bleed bolts….yeah, being level 5 wretch helping my level 10 friend out in limgrave is so fun. People twinking to feel good about their “skill” when in reality they run at you pressing LB with dual bleed weapons, so you get proc even if you roll. Big brain, much skill🤦
9:38 This kind of cuts to the root of the issue for a lot of these conversations, there are 2 kinds of players, the player that respond like you, that get blasted by dark bead and want to try it, and the players like me that get blasted by dark bead and think, "no that shit is disgusting I'm never using that thing". For me a huge part of why i play souls games is because i have specific build ideas, specific spells, a specific character, I'm going for. This very rarely intersects with the meta, and in fact it often specifically avoids it. If i see too many people using a certain setup it looses its edge to me, i want my "character" to stand out. This is why the "if you think its so op just use it" response doesn't do anything for me, it goes against the whole point of why i play.
Hey, I completely agree with you. I want to play my way and try to be as meta-averse as I can. What I found so appealing about the one-shot elimination was the idea that you could be that powerful. I don't particularly enjoy reducing fights to a single-round shoot-off, so I try to find the best way to play my own way. I certainly understand the appeal for people to mimic an easy kill build, but really all I want people to appreciate is the idea that you can do a lot with a little. I like to try to find ways to counter those sorts of builds using things I find appealing, though it doesn't always work out. I think this series does a (mostly) good job of letting people use what they want. It's not often in a game where I feel equally valid using a dagger as I do using a greatsword and this series has given that to me in one form or another for over a decade. Elden Ring hasn't been the best about it but I'd be lying if I said there weren't options.
@@emotionaljonxvx I think the last patch did wonders for build diversity, however the top setups are in my opinion still too powerful to a degree i find disheartening. To be honest at this point is mainly just stuff like PS setups and a couple ashes of war that need tuning, but the effects of their presence are, imo, overpowering for the meta. The interclass balancing is also pretty bad in my opinion: there are many weapons per weapon class, but only a few are worth using. I challange you tot take the Lucerne into an invasion against 3 people, it completely out classed by every halberd and spear. This is a personal shame for me, because the lucerne has alwasybeen my baby since ds1. Lets say i want to make a historically accurate knight with a short spear and a simple wooden round shield. Unfortunately, you can barely compete with that build, because there is no advantage given to a short spear to make up for its short range, and no advantage given to a wooden shield to make up for its low defense&stability. (seriously no one ever uses wooden shields in these games because they are so excessively out classed) At this point im just complaining, which is not generally something i like doing for too long, so ill stop here., I just wanted to paint.the picture of what im talking about. The point is, while the game has made a lot of progress, theres still progress to be made.
Yo Jon, I appreciate your content but you might want to factcheck the Dark Souls 1 invasion mechanics. You can't invade any level above you, there's brackets in place.
So I'm pretty sure that the brackets only apply to Dark Souls Remastered and not the original. I could be wrong but everything I can find suggests you can invade infinitely upward in the original. If I'm wrong I can post a correction but since they took the original PC servers down (and I think Xbox and Playstation as well) I can't test it for myself.
I really like your youtube videos. You are making the video essays I'm too lazy to make , honestly. The thing about Twinking in souls games is, it just is not what it used to be. The host team has it so goddamn easy now. Like you said, back in the good old days, you got invaded by a dark bead twink (while solo) and got one shotted. There was no guarantee you had summons or a rune arc or any real advantage as the host. Back in these days, whining about twinks was very justifiable. My first invasion ever was a bastard like this in undead parrish. I thought he was the coolest thing. I wanted to play like him, and be bad red man. But today, it's so painfully easy for hosts, I have trouble not having a smug grin when they try to whine. Today, hosts have: Rune Arc (40 level bonus) Double heals Usually 2 overlevel summons Can fogwall with no way to stop them Enemies now target invaders (they do, they're just sneaky about it) They can resummon at any time if they start losing, and blues will show up as substitute gankers even if they don't. I could go on. The safety nets they have are absolutely ridiculous. Let us also talk about the overlevel summons. Almost every host has at least 1 overlevel summon. If they are 10-50 levels higher than the host, it is not a huge deal. But when it becomes a 100 level or more difference, it is a goddamn nightmare for invaders. Lets say you are level 40 invader, and so is host. His phantom is level 200. This summon has inherent advantages over everyone else, and they are very large. The only real thing that gets scaled down on overlevel summons is the health and weapon level. Things that do not scale down: Innate defense. When you level up, you gain innate defense not tied to build or gear at all. Overlevel summons keep this, so their skin is literally thicker than everyone elses. Damage scaling. While upgrade levels goes down, the stat based scaling of weapon, ash, and magic damage stays the same as it is in their level 200 world. Meaning they are insanely tanky, and deal a shitload of unjustifiable damage. They also retain all gear and spells from their endgame level 200 world. That last part is important. Overlevel phantoms are not just twinks like some invaders, but are demigods compared to host and invader due to bad scaling. Not to mention, the phantoms will often give late game gear to the host so he is a twink too. Yeah, it's bad. I have a lot of trouble sympathizing with hosts on this one. Overlevel summons with endgame gear and twink hosts are absolutely rampant. Everywhere. You will not get away from them. This is why i feel it is justifiable for invaders to use whatever the fuck they want. If host team twinks, invaders should twink. That is just the way of it. Until michael zaki really does something about overlevel summons, invaders will continue to twink, and there will continue to be nothing wrong with it considering how easy the host team has it and how many of them are twinks. Let us also not forget that endgame gear isn't even necessarily better than early game. You get bloodbound fang early game and it is literally one of the best invasion weapons in the game. It varies. You get it though. I kinda sorta think hosts have no grounds to complain about twinks when they're doing it even more, on top of the easy mode version of invasions they have in Elden Ring. I think it's just another sad excuse to bitch about invaders in general, honestly.
Completely agree. I never want to be dismissive of the hosts who have never invaded to see what it's like for the other side because it just breeds hostility when we all love the same game. I want to encourage the positive hostility of knowing what you're going up against and embracing that these games let things be unbalanced. I know people hate twinks so I had to make my case. I wanna bridge the gap to give people the perspective to love these games for what sets them apart instead of people trying to make them like every other game on the market.
"I had power demonstrated to me in an unforgettable way..." Right, you've convinced me. Twinking hard starting today. (In fact, the most I twink is using Grand Merchant to get armour that's either locked behind Morgott/Radahn, and then solely for fashionsouls purposes. That's literally all it's about for me. Also I may get the extra Pouch slots solely so I can wear the invader's mirror, alongside 2 functional talismans, to hide the red look. To me, unless it's Bullgoat+Varre mask, these are legitimate and not even twinking.) However, twink invaders don't turn people off these games. People who are like to be turned off these games by PVP are going to be turned off by ANY invaders. Seen it many times on the ER subreddit. EDIT: damn you really went all-in for defending the experience of invaders. Bravo.
The urge to twink is the reason I restrict my low level invasion builds between 70/90 (I avoid lvl 60 because it's as bad as 125/150 bracket) you still get a lot more of an advantage then you would at 168 and above (due to the insane damage everything does past lvl 110) but you're also not (usually) picking on newbies who just started the game and want to enjoy it with freinds.
It is a difficult balance to strike for sure. I love the idea of an invader being a formative experience for new players but I try to balance how I'm fighting to not make it insane, though I'm not always successful and I'm not always gentle. I've been invading at 200 lately on a sorcerer and while I still get ganked every so often, getting more natural invasions from basically big noobs is a lot of fun too, but damage is god damn absurd.
@@emotionaljonxvx It helps that the dlc has brought a lot of people back even if other big games like dragons dogma 2 are slowing it down some.. I prefer 168 for high lvl 200 is a bit too excessive for me.
The only right way to invade low level is to twink as hard as you can, but know when to hold back when you invade honest players. I don't enjoy noob stomping. It's unfair, it's actual griefing, and it's a hollow win. So I try not to.
go a step further if you can stomach it. i try to intentionally loose against most people i like while showing them smth cool or how a mechanic operates that they clearly dont understand yet. and gankers get the spank ofc no questions asked. full treatment for a good ol soul cleansing
Very true. I understand plenty of players are still "new" by the logic of not being veterans but these games have always shirked training wheels so I've never really taken issue with getting the full-frontal experience right out the gate.
I do not think the lack of balance is a feature and not a bug. It would seem to me that while coop & pvp are important to Souls games, they have always taken a back seat to story and pve. If they could fix all this, they would. Twinking is what it is but it is definitely a bug. Lack of region matchmaking is a missing feature. Lack of rewards for pvp is a missing feature. Invading outside boss doors is a bug. Honestly the game needs a major rework in the area of pvp. Lets not call this a design choice or even a good design choice. Lets just call it what it is. I still love the game, but I see what it could be were it to continue to grow.
Very well said 👹 It is hard to love rot/lightning pot, poison weapon infused, banished knight armor, large glintstone scrap, frenzied warning stone (all this in one) players at RL 10-20 though 👻
I don‘t like sweaty twinks, but I like the fact that Elden Ring makes it necesseary, to even barely stand a chance against 24/7 gank-fights, having no co-reds thanks to TT toggle and endless blue swarming, 9/10 cases including overlevelled summons with barely to no downscaling- even less.
it's not often your level 30 invader can beat two level 700 phantoms, but when the helpless hosts gets alone and more often than not disconnects out of pure fear, it makes it worth it.
While I did play Diablo 2 back in the day, the first time I heard of twinking was in WoW. I think it's been a thing for about as long as any online gaming with RPG elements. But the real origin from my understanding is "munchkins" or min/maxers in wargaming and tabletop like D&D. Same idea but just pen & paper instead of computers and internet.
I just can't help but twink. I've beat the game at level 1 a few times, I have access to anything I want no matter the level. And when I'm invading, there's always these opportunities to do stuff that I just can't miss out on. I HAVE to have a greatbow because knocking people off a ledge with it is too funny. I HAVE to have something like endure claws and stormhawk axe because sometimes, those are the ONLY things that can save you from being stunlocked in a corner by 3 people. I have to have a bloodhound step weapon because 3 competent people chaining running attacks can be literally impossible to avoid without it. The list kinda goes on, depending on the build, and that naturally results in what anyone would call a "twink." Just can't help it, some of it is born out of necessity, some of it is just for fun, but at the end of the day any build I make below 125 is a twink.
theres never an excuse to use rot sleep or golem arrow on people with less than 2 hours in the game, twinking is a problem, and it has been a problem that FS has never been able to fix. its good to have a good mentality for problems with no solutions (at least as of right now), but to not address it as the serious problem it is would be foolish
I think every invader needs one or two scummy option to deal with scummy hosts and gankers, but all in all, I discourage twinking because it can stop you from getting good at the game. Optimize builds to your heart's content, but don't let it replace skill and don't be a griefer.
There needs to progress leveling similar to weapon leveling where you can’t invade early areas after reaching later ones. Twinking has been a serious problem for noobs and low level play since the beginning of souls. The fact that players can get literal level buffs like ring of favor/prisoners chain/millicent’s means that going that route becomes the meta for all who want to low level invade. As for those who defend twinking, it’s simply a skill issue.
I used to turn on twinks/scummy co-reds if the host was genuine in former games. Not ER I don‘t, it‘s a terrible online environment and needs fixing, which would be easy if From just took the leap. - being online = open to invasions like in DS2 - Blues should equal the numbers of reds and have cooldowns on death - password summons should be: HEAVILY nerfed, removed, or open up Invaders in the same bracket as the highest lvl summon - Rework Taunters Tongue: only able to toggle when resting at grace! - raise the player limit to 6
Yeah, Elden Ring botched a few key interactions and it really skews the whole thing. I'm trying to make the best of it but the lower player count is really the thing that breaks me. I want big fights!
11.10 the times you invade at low lvl and only fight builds are going trough the game is 20% at the absolute most. there are way more players with semi finished or completed builds. yup also at sl20
Those guys I fought in Summonwater were all around level 20 (iirc) and they gave me a hell of a fight. Not fully formed builds mind you, but that mariner was no help at all and 3 even remotely competent builds running at you non-stop is a hard fight no matter what. I bring the perfumes for emergencies and I was glad to have them there.
@@emotionaljonxvx perfumes are so good its crazy no one seems to use them. you can jump punish a spammer but if you use them as sudden burst dmg, theyre insanely effective. a great tool for a frost bite build that uses dex weapons^^
I love low level pvp and i have clips of my honest invader as in 2 slots only starting stuff and i got a partial parry on a ol summon arcane build and between the damage i took from it and the bleed it proced a partial parry killed me on my regular lvl 30 i beat the game with it wouldnt have happened
I'm gonna make a video (maybe even stream) about a "fair" invader who only uses Limgrave gear. I did it with the High Wall in Dark Souls 3 and I wanna give it another go in Elden Ring, if for no other reason than I just love starting areas so much.
@@emotionaljonxvx it's great I did a invasion this morning with it and had a blue spawn in full bull goat with duel nogi and dragon halberd (using winged tear) definitely worth a try
yes. yes, twinks are a problem. if you wonder why the invasion system is they way it is currently look no further than twink invaders. also i'm gonna have to give some pushback against the claim hosts twink as much as invaders which is patently untrue. hosts are playing through the game to get the stuff twinks already have. of the invasions you've even shown in the video only 2 hosts were using gear they technically should not have access to in limgrave. i take slight issue with overleveled summons, essentially due to the fact that you need a password so technically you'd need to interact outside of the game to even meet them so they would in fact be friends, so i take issue with invaders having problems with players wanting to play with their friends. if you find no issue with twinking neither should you find issue with fighting overleveled summons with end game gear. essentially to twink you are deliberately bypassing balancing methods fromsoftware placed to keep matchmaking for the most part fair, while still being able to connect to players. so even if your intention is not malicious invading or TT with a twink build objectively you are looking to go into an encounter with an overwhelming advantage over your regular opponent. twinking and for that matter overleveled lose a lot of their power once you reach meta levels due to everyone having the same access to items and gear. bringing these exact same items to bear against players who don't have access to them is essentially the same as bringing brass knuckles to a boxing match and when you eventually pulverize your opponent you ask him if he's having fun? something you failed to touch on why twinks are a real problem and the real reason aside from balancing as since twinks inherently inhabit low levels and early areas they for the most part invade new players. this experience now colors how they view invaders going forward and gives them the perception that invaders are "cheating", although some cases they actually are. twinking is the worst it's ever been due to CE, before i would think an invader would have to go through the game at extreme disadvantages to get their op gear with CE that is no longer the case for both hosts and invaders but you won't find new players using it. so yes twinking is a major problem. twinking is skyrim for invaders you fight people who can't outdmg your flasks, can't outheal your dmg, and won't outlast your consumables. getting 2/3v1 in invasions right now is pretty much an attempt at dealing with twinking on FS side. having overleveled phantoms in DS3 did little against darkhand or dragonslayer axe 3-4 shotting you just like the host so they added player 4 to the mix. so if you're an invader and are tired of getting 3v1 gangbanged blame twinks as someone who's pvped since DS1 the changes they've made thus far to multiplayer seem to address this the most.
I do twink It’s to stand a chance against password phantoms Half of the issue with the abusive twinking is removing solo invasions so the invaders are always going to get 2-3 players and next to no chance for a coinvader. On top of that the hosts who are struggling and summoning for help are the only ones getting consistently invaded. Invaded by people who have minmaxed their setup to counter PW phantoms.
But conversely a twink is nigh unbeatable for two properly leveled players at the lowest levels. Co-op below level 30 is hell because every invader is a horrible twink. Just disconnect if it's a gank
That's actually a really good point i've never seen tbh. Never thought about how by making it so you can't be invaded solo it made it so that the people who are struggling so much that they need to summon end up getting invaded, that makes a lot of sense when you see the sentiment by casual hosts being so anti-invader, because to them they were already struggling enough that they had to summon friends to help and then an invader might have killed them once or twice, rubbing salt into the wound. If they just allowed solo invasions then this would ironically disappear as an issue largely, since people would be getting invaded regardless of if they are struggling in the game or not.
Elden Ring made Invading a nuclear arms-race against max lvl summons in low-mid brackets, forcing people who‘d be laid back while playing to become sweats, or be one-shot if they don‘t.
That is not a valid point a twink can die to 3 guys swinging katanas at him cause bleed does a percentage of hp no matter what and DC is basically giving up imo and I don't invade to give up but I also don't use bs against regular co oppers ol summons get the bs
I don't disagree, I think there's a lot of shitters who invade like anything else. Same with shitter hosts or summons. However my only real issue is starlight shards and rot boluses being to hard to get. They could get rid of shards and I'd be cool with it though. I dupe so neither are an issue for me personally. I make full on cosplays, restricted and still manage. there is incentive to be a shitter. it also doesn't help getting bagged and shit potted after the blender 😂. That would be more on the petty/vengeful side. I dont believe it's necessary either way though. I also think a lot of people disagree on what a twink is. I think it's literally nothing more than a competent player that's low level. I don't think it's bad though. I don't care for shitters, regardless of levels. Cancer 3 stacks for example, a gank doesn't bother me that's fun. Or co-op with my kids and some turd wants to rush host with blood curved powerstance at lvl 30 +3 while im wanting to fight them. Its lame. But i get it. In short there's a difference in twinks and griefers. There's a difference in griefers and the most effective tactic available to you. I don't have a point at all 😂. Just an observation on shitters.
Well I often think of Captain Jack Sparrow; "The only rules that matter are these; what a man can do, and what a man can't do". When I first got into eldenring I thought twinks were unfair, overpowered, ect. But there was nothing stopping me from doing the same thing except the knowledge of how. That is skill. It takes a bit of know how and game knowledge to make a "twink" build. And even then, the crappest pvp player still would be at a disadvantage playing with such a build. So its either cry about the "unfairness" or get gud. Classic souls philosophy
The problem is the possible power gap, its can just get so big. All things dont need to be equal, but getting one shot just feels awful. The problem on Elden Ring are brutal gank squads. And the chainsaw.
If pve and pvp loadouts where closer, I could agree with u. With how the game is rn, nah. Invasion sucks and it probably won't ever be big again. It's not challenging getting invaded by a full pvp optimized build, it's just cheap. So yeah pvp in souls will probably never be relevant again. It'll just be ganks and twinks. I wish we could have invasions be a big part of anyone's experience, but for that the regular pve needs to prepare u better for pvp. U can have 300h and dominate pve and have zero experience with all the good items for pvp.
When hosts and their overleveled phantoms point down after a 10 minute fight as if they destroyed me instantly, I realized that being an honest red man was being a dumb red man. Throw the entire kitchen sink at hosts. They'd do the same to you and tea bag you when you die.
I decided to make an honest RL 20 with the greataxe and got pointed down on by a OL phantom holding the fallingstar beast jaw. I knew then their fairness criteria are meaningless.
Personally I think the biggest problem here is the cheat engine. Ye sure - if you can beat the game without leveling once and with +3 weapons it does seem fair this way. But tell me which one of them Twinks does it fairly? You even see people like Oroboro having dropped fucking everything by a friend with Collectors Edition ON STREAM. And the comment is "A lot of generous people on my stream man".
I'm gonna be honest and keep my comment short. I feel like most twink invaders are just people spamming rot breath and using a poison antspur at beginning level, or abusing glitches. There's no real fun to that, it's just griefing. And most phantom twinks (I call them anti-twinks) are just as stupid and easy to kill as their brand new host they're trying to carry, you can kill them with a +0 pike so easily it's unreal. Twinking is in theory just a "demonstration of power", but in practice it's a gateway to griefing new players for fun.
@@Crit-Multiplier I'm generally an invader and not a host, so I only fought twinks when showing the game to friends new to the game. Generally all we fought were rot/bleed twinks. I'm not counting phantom anti-twinks. And I have done many, many hours of invasions, including low level. But for low level I generally only bring low level equipment aswell, with non-maxed flasks.
9:54 This is the problem, Jon. Deep down, you are a powergamer. You got shitstomped by a twink, and it inspired you to attain that power. When I got invaded by a twink in DS1, my humble knight got absolutely nuclear bombarded by dark bead spam. And you know what that thought? That these people are playing with scummy tactics to stomp honest newcomers to get a fix of power fantasy, and that I would never sunk so low like they did. You know what I wanted back then? I wanted be like Solaire and throw lighting bolts. I wanted to be like Tarkus, wield a huge ass sword and push the golem off the stage, just like Tarkus. I did not want to power game, nor sweat my balls off min maxing the game, because I did not derive enjoyment from the game doing that, I'd beat that challenging game MY way, and so I did. While your arguments are largely valid, it's coming from a philosophy of a powergamer, which I'm sure it's just a small portion of the playerbase, and I'd bet my Greatsword that the majority of playerbase, specially newcomers and mid level players, just want to enjoy the game their way. Your philosophy is not shared by most people, you should keep in mind that. Also your new player cheating thing does not put you in good lights, when I was younger the thought of cheating never crossed my mind. I assume because I never played Skyrim, probably. That why beating Dark Souls 1 felt so rewarding and I felt in love with the genre, the joy of overcoming a (fair) challenge. Last thing, there at times in this community sound overly hostile to casuals, angry at the catering of the "lower denominator" playerbase; people fail to realize these casuals are still fucking playing Souls games, a genre of games widely acknowledged to be very hard, real casuals would be playing Farmville or Candy Crush, and not "dying simulator" game genre, while I generally agree with a gatekeeping stance in many different games, Soulsborne games do not need it nor it is warranted. Mostly because the game already does the gatekeeping, kek.
I think my point is less that how I view the game is right or that I don't think people shouldn't be able to play their way, but more that I'm trying to give people perspective as someone who used to feel very differently about these games and have come around to a different viewpoint. I don't think everyone wants the experience I want, just as I didn't always want it. What I'm suggesting is that people open themselves to the experiences the game facilitates, even when the experience is extremely hostile and shitty, because you don't know what you like till you try it. I understand different people want different things from the game and I know that I'm not representative of any group. I'm trying to use my perspective to help other people inform theirs. I want everyone to get as much as possible out of the game and I think being dismissive of any playstyle without truly experiencing the full scope of what it offers isn't a great way to know what you're missing. And as far as cheating goes, I think games should take great effort to inspire the best in their players. I think the Souls games do this well but that there are areas for improvement. I think many games, more casual or grindy RPGs, spend too little time ensuring the experience is engaging the whole way through, instead relying on "one day, it will be fun". A lot of MMOs come to mind there. I'm not advocating for cheating, especially not in a competitive sense, just trying to be honest about the way I viewed games before I got into Dark Souls.
Idk as long as youre not toxic about it i dont mind these builds. If it becomes too annoying i either go to the arena and train there or i equip better gear or turn off invasions all together. Having the luxury to having invasions being optional is a very positive thing in my mind. In Darksouls it was annoying as fu**
idk man, i think twinks can be fine, but pulling out sleep/rot pots against starting players is nothing short of disgusting to me
I feel you on that. Limgrave players cant heal rot at all. Super unfair to use it.
Hey, no argument there. Anything like that really falls under the griefing category for me and I just want people to embrace that it's not going to change and that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world. People can show up and absolutely ruin you, no skill required. My cope is just trying to encourage people to learn from the experience, especially if it's a very shitty one.
These games offer very unique play in so many categories and I want to embrace all of them, even when they're poorly balanced.
If I see an overlevelled babysitter = the host get‘s rot
The host uses dropped twink gear/rot breath = the host get‘s rot
It‘s that simple.
@@zawarudo8991Honestly you are doing a service to the community, punishing hosts for ruining their own playthrough. o7
@@zawarudo8991 People playing a game with their friend, therefore you grief them. The host has built to counter players like you, therefore you get mad and grief them. You objectively just want to punch down on players worse than you. You want to worsen their experience objectivlely with that mindset.
Twinks irl is where it's really at.
This is well done, but all I can think about when you say twinks are tiny gay guys
you are probably not even wrong about that
@@doesfireburn8532No, as in the term twink is literally used in the gay community to describe skinny gay guys
@@RayRayRayRayRayRay that was a joke but apparently it went over your head
@@doesfireburn8532 Oh, yeah it went over my head lmao
@@RayRayRayRayRayRay happens to the best of us lol
It's better than a Bear problem.
"Elden Ring PVP: Are Bears a Problem?" and then it's just 6 minutes of me screaming getting mauled by rune bears.
Rune bears ARE a problem. I will twink through the entire game but I REFUSE to go anywhere near a rune bear.
Or an otter problem
@@emotionaljonxvx I'd watch that
Bears aren't even tough enemies. They're only tough for players who haven't learned yet that good positioning wins fights.
One of the best memories of souls is just playing together with my friends, when suddenly we get invaded by a gigatwink on High Wall, start of the game. He is nigh immortal, has so much resources and even great armor, but we manage to keep him from the host by utilizing some stairs. I fall first, but since we're friends on vc I get resummoned, as a cleric I heal the party. This invader has maximum amount of estus and everything but we manage to whittle him down, resummoning and cleric heal as needed. We even get him to use a divine blessing! Can you imagine?
So we fight some more, keep him in the stairs, and through a brilliant manouver by one of us we manage to get him stuck in the meatgrinder, still in the stairs! Three of us just wailing on him, and he falls at last. Without a word spoken, we all do point down in sync as he dies. He trashtalks on our steam profiles, accusing of gank. We trashtalk back, mocking him for the divine blessing. I suspect this is the kinda sadist twink that would revel in misery, but in truth I'm not angry at all at this guy. He felt like a boss we all needed to strategize to take down in a gruelling battle of attrition.
If you really appreciated this gigatwink so much, why did you point down at him? If I appreciate someone, I will cheer for them, I'll clap for them, I'll bow to them. I'll certainly never point down at them.
That's a huge contradiction and I hope you're aware of it.
@@ETBrooD The GigaTwink was the bad guy in this scenario, at least to me. In a hard fought battle against unfair odds I can't blame anybody for being a little bm.
@@PedroKing19 Sure, but the logic still doesn't check out. If a fight results in one of the most fun experiences I've ever had in a game, why would I show disrespect after the fight?
@@ETBrooD You can't just tell me something I do is a contradiction without understanding the situation. No, you don't understand me or anything I do just because you played the same game I did 8 years ago, or because we both share an affinity for a certain mechanic in this game. Instead of taking on an accusatory tone, try being inquisitive, or at the very least just neutral. This is of course presupposing you aren't just here to call me out without heed. Despite my better judgement I will engage you in good faith, here's my attempt at providing some extra context or new perspectives on the situation:
To be fair, the guy _was_ a total jerk. Only there to stomp newbies, and he'd no doubt point down as well even though this is what he came for. I didn't like him in the moment, the appreciation is a product of remeniscing. It wasn't even necessarily about the guy, but moreso what we, my friends and I, had to do to get him down, our shared antagonsim for him.
But even after all this, I don't think a point down or a dung pie or any such disrespect of someone is necessarily a sign of non-appreciation. It's all an extension of the game. If I met him in real life I hope we could share a beer and laugh at the situation, but one must suspend niceties for the sake of the game. After all, there would be no invasion without wanton agression, and we could not meet his violence without malice of our own. Well, even if you disagree with the sentiment I hope you can at least see my stance on this.
I think the real issue with so-called twinking in Elden Ring isn't that people bring late game gear to lower levels, it's just that there are certain pieces of gear that are super busted at all ranges.
About a year ago I made a video about how twinking isn't the issue in Elden Ring as much as general balance and how Fromsoft decided to gate certain pieces of content. I pointed to stuff like the Dragon Halberd that's been capable of one shotting vigor lenient hosts since launch, or how they put the best status effect in the game on a rapier of all weapons, or just everything surrounding rot pots / consumables in general.
To this day I consistently get comments from people who completely missed the point, either still yelling about how anyone who is a twink is a cheater and a legitimately bad person IRL, or on the opposite end of the spectrum defending a playtstyle that just makes absolutely everyone involved miserable. I think in general people's brains are too poisoned from how twinks used to be, because in Elden Ring they really aren't a problem like they have been in the past, and like you said there's something so incredibly special about making a level specific character in a Fromsoftware game.
Anyways, just wanted to say that this is really an excellent video, been really enjoying your thoughts on a lot of general Elden Ring topics as of late.
Exactly! Dragon Halberd at low levels is as abusive as double naginatas at meta level for example. FS actually unintentionally created a moral and practical reason to twink wich is the introduction of overleveled phantoms. People can't really complain about twinking since overleveled phantoms are basicly that but also get to keep their levels. If twinking is a problem for someone then overleveled are that problem + more and should be a priority, not twinks
Twinks in Elden Ring are a HUGE problem. If you're playing the game normally and a twink invades you and your friend, you're dunzo. It's game over. And it absolutely sucks, there's no fun to be had whatsoever. And they can just invade you again soon after because you're still in the same zone.
I'm actually considering doing a taunter's tongue solo playthrough to demonstrate how common twink invaders are.
@@ETBrooD it's not game over, I'd argue a host and a phantom still have the advantage over a twink
@@miguelnascimento2847 Not if the host and phantom are normal players. I've seen what happens plenty of times, they're dunzo. They have a 10% chance of winning if they're lucky, 0% if not.
@@ETBrooD idk what you mean by normal players but any slightly decent group can for sure go against 1 opponent
Jon I've been watching souls content for probably 6 or 7 years now, and I want you to know your recent videos, and this one in particular, are my favorite souls related videos anyone has produced! (although Saint Riots Powerful Poking Partizan video sits at a comfortable tie for first lol, his anguished howl at the end obliterates me every time)
You are one of startlingly few people I've encountered who really seems to fully understand what these games are about and how to enjoy them for what they are, for better and worse, without reservation. It's so refreshing. So many people who spend time with this game become frustrated with it, which only makes sense considering the game does little but throw conflict at you -- but, that's the point! This is a game with friction, as you aptly put it, it wouldn't be the same without that. As a consequence, the most important stat for a good time in Elden Ring is an IRL stat: Humility.
So please, please maintain this wonderful mindset of yours and continue to share it as fully as you can! This is the kind of insight and perspective the community desperately needs! In fact if I might make a suggestion, when eventually you feel you've covered most of what you want to, I would simply love to see a long Elden Ring PVP difficulty summary video from you, where you reflect on the main takeaways of your videos on the topic and tell us what you think and feel about it as a whole. And in the meantime, I'd love to hear more on your personal code of ethics!
One invader to another, one person to another; you have my sincere respect Jon. Thanks for the videos!
That's high praise! Saint is actually the guy that helped me get acclimated to invasions in Dark Souls 3. His learn to invade videos and how he made builds that shirked meta trends were really eye-opening for how I approach PVP.
I'm gonna keep on keepin' on as long as people will have me, thanks for the very, very kind words!
The broader problem in Elden Ring's multiplayer isn't new, and I think it does a disservice to the issue to talk about Elden Ring in isolation, or even just limited to Souls games. Elden Ring is just an insanely easy game to grief in, full stop.
Twinks contribute to the invasion arms race that ruins the invasion system. FromSoft accelerated the arms race by forcing every natural invasion to be at least a 2v1 and by lowering the player limit to 4.
You have a legit invader Vs a legit host. Legit invader will probably win since invaders tend to be a little more skilled than PvErs.
Then you get a legit invader Vs a legit host and his legit phantom or blue. It’s a much closer fight now.
After that, it’s a legit invader Vs a legit host and their overleveled phantom. This is insanely common in Elden Ring, and a legit invader has little to no actual way of overcoming an overleveled phantom if they’re using legit early/mid-game gear. Overleveled phantoms have unscaled defenses, higher damage, more healing resources, better healing resources, more offensive options, and are with another player (the host). On top of that, a blue can still come in and support the host and phantom, too. Blues are no longer “protectors of the weak” that even the odds in an invasion, they’re effectively stupid bullies contributing to the problem who aren’t even aware of the problem.
Now the invader needs a way to level the playing field against overleveled phantoms, so what does the invader do? He twinks. Now he’s got a much better shot at beating that overleveled phantom. But the moment a twinked invader matches up against a legit host or a legit host with a legit phantom, it’s gonna be an easy landslide victory for the invader.
Now those legit hosts/phantoms will need a way to overcome the twinked invaders, and they’ll either overlevel the phantom, they’ll Twink too, or a mixture of both. So now you’ve got a twinked invader Vs a twinked host and an overleveled phantom. Host already has an advantage on his own due to uncapped healing resources, now the invader is at a major disadvantage no matter how you look at it.
And if you happen to be a legit invader facing a Twink and an overleveled phantom? Good luck keeping your dignity and your sanity in this failure of an invasion system.
This arms race existed in DS3, but wasn’t as bad as it is in Elden Ring because you could always invade a solo host. So if you happened to get a bad invasion, you can brush it off an match against a more fair/balanced matchup. You could also get another invader as support in DS3, too. In Elden Ring, you’re realistically never gonna get another invader to help you unless the opponent is intentionally allowing you to with the Taunter’s Tongue. There were also many more legit players that you could match with, and overleveled (not unscaled) phantoms in DS3 were more manageable. I’m Elden Ring, FromSoft made the genius decision to remove solo invasions, basically forcing all invaders to optimize if they ever want to win. So after over a year of Elden Ring being out, the only invaders you really have anymore are the skilled Twinks or the really skilled but rare legit players. It’s really hard for your average player to get into Elden Ring invasions because of this crappy recipe From threw together.
The only way From can really fix it is by actually balancing overleveled phantoms (which are “downscaled” but not enough). Make them weaker than hosts, if they’ve gotten to that high of a level, they should be good enough to handle themselves. Give specific defense brackets at certain level breakpoints if From can’t figure out how to lower base defenses. Make their damage equal or less than that of the host. Then they’ll actually be balanced. They still have more heals, they still have better heals, and they still have more gear. That’s balanced. Add the ability to always have another invader or increase the player limit to 5 or 6. With those 2 fixes, twinking is no longer a “necessary evil” and now is actually something people can look down on.
Yup if a phantom is higher than the allowed multiplayer formula they should be downscaled to the host's hp/defenses, they can keep all the spells and weapons
U Write this like overlvl‘d Phantoms Are impossible to kill, but specially in this meta they easier to kill, before nerf I would always go dual GS on overlvl‘d Phantom’s and kill via jumping Attack or crouch poke but now with all those ashes that truecombo into themselves u just need one of those or use anything with high burst dmg for range punish on cast and having a misericorde became extremely important for me because I can just backstab them if they wanna cast one of there plenty buffs or heals and they still only have about ~2k+ Hp
@@mattiasxxxx7096 I think we play at vastly different levels. An overleveled at RL80 isn’t much of an issue. An overleveled at RL10 is effectively impossible unless you bring some bullshit like Stormhawk, Dragon Halberd, Flaming Strike (at that early in the game is definitely OP) or late game craftables.
Just because there are broken tools to deal with something doesn’t mean all of those things are balanced. All of them need tuning, especially overleveled phantoms.
Best comment here, approved. Fromsoft needs to make the matchmaking system more fair and balanced. There are various possible solutions.
@@Rexis102 Yea I No longer invade at RL10, only when I was lvl‘ing up, but at that lvl are there even any good Hosts and ofc pvp at Rl10 is unbalanced af, because someone 10 lvl‘s higher or lower could get matchdup with eachother , which is a huge difference at that lvl, u could use grafted sword ash or +10 stat physik, the scoreseals and easily get the upperhand with gear u get 1h into the game
Fromsoft will never be able to fully prevent twinking. People will always figure out ways to abuse the mechanics. Its just part of the experience at this point.
As a souls vet with tons of hours in both pve and pvp, it can be extremely frustrating when you are invaded by a twink, and despite clearly being more skilled, they are hard carried by their gear. If you are using an honest build, often times you have to land 10 hits to do the same amount of damage as 2-3 hits from the invader. Couple that with the invader having maximum estus and victory is essentially futile. This unfortunately can drive new players away from trying pvp altogether, since they see it as unfair (which it is in these circumstances)
Honestly, I do wish they'd just pay more attention to the balance of the game at all levels. I don't need invasions to be fair or to not have access to good gear, I just want the game to be more palatable at every stage of the experience instead of leaving the door wide open for anyone with a mind for exploitation. I love twinks at their best and I embrace them at their worst, but I wouldn't complain if FromSoft wanted to do more to narrow the gap.
"If you are using an honest build, often times you have to land 10 hits to do the same amount of damage as 2-3 hits from the invader."
My problem with this critique is that it's basically the Elden Ring experience anyway, with bosses at basically all levels. Invaders are just another "boss" to learn to get around. Or you die, run back from bonfire/grace, get souls/runes, and off you go again. The inconvenience is way too hyped up. It's just a game really.
@@ianwilliams2632 bosses create predictable openings for counter-attacks. Player strategy is heavily gear-dependent and easily adjusted to player habits. a twink invader will also often have tools to force the host to approach while lower-level hosts tend to not have many spells or ranged options that are at all threatening.
They're not bosses, they're bullies
Twinking can definitely be prevented. If you win several invasions in a row, you should get matched with stronger hosts. Same the other way around.
When I decided to try and engage in multiplayer in this game on my third run (I played completely offline on first run and only summoned a handful times on my second one), my first invasion ended up being such a rancid experience for me. I started as a deprived, got a broadsword and some clothes with all the runes I had early on, then went back to the first step to try summoning without so much as having afforded a level up yet. I summoned a phantom who seemed to be even newer than me, they were also deprived but still rolling with only the starting gear, and they also made more mistakes and took a lot of damage. When the twink invader showed up, my summon died instantly and I was left to fight them alone. I had four flasks, while having to deal with the invader poisoning me and repeatedly switching weapons for mix ups and ranged attacks. I did a fairly decent job imo since we fought for several minutes and I was able to count the invader chugging up to five times, while dealing with poison (I had only one bolus at that point, i used it and then he procced it again). It was frustrating and miserable, I didn't even have any way of catching them off guard because I only had my default square off and I had never used a straightsword in my two previous runs, let alone in a multiplayer context. At the end he pointed down as though he pulled off a difficult feat by killing me even though I only had four flasks that didn't even heal my entire health.
Ever since, I've hated that I can't be invaded unless I summon. I didn't want to wade super deep into multiplayer, I just enjoyed having encounters in ds3 that ranged from playful, to more proper duels, to cancer. In Elden Ring, my experience has made me feel as if invaders are so much more predisposed to being assholes because they do tend to deal with ganks and being outnumbered. It didn't put me off it entirely, but I ended up not summoning until I leveled up more and had options, because fuck dealing with early game Elden Ring twinks. It's annoying and miserable and I hate people who do it. I'll stick to invading and being invaded at higher levels.
Yeah, your experience is pretty much the rule in low brackets. A friend and I started characters together, and we had a dude in castle morn using the st Trina's sword and sleep pots. He even tried to bait us into aggroing all the misbegottens in the dead body pile lmao. We ended up dealing with him bc I invade a lot so I'm not bad at pvp, but I was a bit surprised at how someone was invading the lvl 20/+2 bracket with those tools, and also a fuckton of flasks. It's quite scummy.
At least the lvl 50+ bracket is pretty fun.
yep, the first invasion I got in elden ring was a twink. Me and my friend were playing as normal new characters (not my first character, I made a new one to run the game with him and actually have fun with my friend instead of being overlevelled and trivializing the pve), but the dude who invaded us came with a the scarlet rot rapier with poison infusion, I remember him barely landing a hit on me but due to the latency's "ghost hits" through my rolls he was able to proc both his poison and scarlet rot on me, then he just run away like a coward and waited for us to die by it. we literally stopped fighting after he procced the poison + rot in both of us bc he refused to engage with us, while also having more estus flasks than both me and my friend (or at least just me bc of the halved flasks, I dont remember how many times he healed).
Absolute cancer, no wonder my friends only play exclusively in seamless co op since you cant get invaded there.
Ds3 pvp was the most fun with blue and purple invaders. Don't care for pvp in elden ring at all, too much running.
Not from my pov. Just play aggressive and get good
Darkroot forest was the peak of fromsoft pvp.
Change my mind.
I always went mad spirit or orang
jon i recently stumbled onto your content and i wanted to say keep up the good work, you deserve more views and subs.
I invade, and i have twinked before in DS3. Twinking is the invader's version of ganking. They are equally disgusting and boring.
I was running on a new character in stormveille, and invader with dual vykes and rot pots annhilated my summons in seconds. I held my own to an extended period because he was just a bad player with OP gear for that lvl. I almost had him because of a surprise parry from my rapier, but the damage wasn't enough to finish him off. As a twink he had more flasks and more effectiveness healing per chug.
If a new player goes through that experience they won't be thinking, thats cool i want to be like him. Their thought would be that's bullshit cuz it is.
I don't mind twinking or ganking, they're all just part of a whacky multiplayer game. They've never been fair games, but doesnt change the fact that these practices are boring and scummy.
WHICH IS WHY THEY EXIST. and they willalways be in these games. bc myasaki and his team know its not about fairness all the fcking time. the world, or other inhabitants of it can be really freaking mean sometimes. to such an extend that there is literally nothing you can do go face them. UNLESS you use the same things against them. you need to start understanding the rules here..
@@Crit-Multiplier don't justify bad sportsmanship as if it was part of the game's design. Twinking was 100% not part of the vision of past games, and that's why each consequent game has had measures put in to avoid it or quell it.
Ganking is equally repulsive, but they just missed the mark with the design of invasion systems in ER. Pretty sure their next entry will attempt to deviate from the current systems
Was the invader named kudesune or sth? I think I also encountered him.
@@James-me4zs I don't remember the maidenless
"Twinking is the invader's version of ganking. They are equally disgusting and boring."" this
It's almost similar to smurfing in other competitive games that you can smurf in. It's just cringe.
I can admit it is nuanced though, like the video goes over
Before watching, just wanting to leave my brief thought:
I have a somewhat low level character who is a Soldier of Godrick cosplay. I mostly show up and try to befriend hosts and show them hidden secrets in the areas if they're kind to me.
I primarily use fists/greatsword type weapons to fit the cosplay, but I have a much more powerful set of weapons/items I use if the hosts/summons are being really toxic.
I think it's good to be prepared to face a 3v1 made up of overleveled phantoms and endgame equipment, but to restrict yourself when facing actually newbies.
I love that sort of play and I love that people can do all sorts of goofy things with invading. This video is really about people's negative perceptions of twinking and how it doesn't have to be a bad thing even at its worst. Even when it's absolute annihilation, there is something to take away from the experience. It's all subjective, but I really want to give folks perspective on just how interesting every part of these games can be.
@@emotionaljonxvx I honestly align with the thought that as long as you're not actually being mean (send hateful messages, pointing down/t bagging, acting better than thou because you beat someone at a game) any tactic is fine.
All we lose by dying in game is a little bit of wasted time (unless you have reached endgame and accidentally invade original Leyndell and get killed. In that case your runes are lost forever unless you switch to ng+)
And I know you know this and you're a good force for our community. I'm just putting my thoughts in the forum. :)
What level do you do invasions at? I’ve been doing RL 30 invasions but idk how much higher I should go
In the video the stats are in the thumbnail, level 10 with +3/+1 weapons. There are invasions at pretty much any level provided your weapon upgrade is properly matched. From my experience, the higher level you get, the more intense invasions will be.
Yes! You made the Twinking video!
Great essay! Digging your channel, man. Subscribed.
Great video as always. Nothing here I really disagree with. I do think a potential solution could be to make a level cap, at like 100 and change invasions range back to infinity up.
I’m usually at 60, arguably twinking, but if 100 is the cap I’d just play there and I think most people would because most people would just be at that level.
There would be some problems and twinking would still happen but I’m pretty sure it would be drastically cut it back.
Also “toddler power monsters” lmao,I’m adding that to my rotation of insults
Without the context of souls invasions that title is pretty funky.
I love your narrative style in every video, it’s pretty cool! Looking forward to more
"Twinking" aka optimizing your build for your level bracket is necessary in Elden Ring in order to have a chance to defeat overleveled password summons. I wish I didn't have to do it, but I do. It sucks for actual low-level co-op lobbies, but it sucks even more to have to drain 14 estus from a phantom that takes 12 damage per hit.
Phantoms are gonna have a max of 7 estus but yeah I agree. Overleveled companions are a plague upon low level invasions
Depends what your calling twink or optimized, it could just as easily be being bad, salty, an asshole, or any combination. I made a comment on this video that explains this observation you should give me your opinion on it.
Password summons legit might be the worst thing fromsoft has ever done to the multiplayer balance wise, hell the 2v1s/3v1s wouldn't even be so bad if we were still using the old 10 levels + 10% shit
I think the difference in perspective on twinking depends on the perspective we’re discussing from. No I’m not talking the host’s viewpoint vs the invader’s - I’m talking about individualized perspective vs community perspective.
Twinking is a tragedy of the commons issue. Without any external forces affecting the outcome, the individuals all end up doing the same thing at the expense of the larger community. In this situation, it isn’t shepherds overgrazing, it’s players accruing disgusting amounts of power using samey gear and samey builds to samey results, and the larger community suffering the effects of those players’ tactics.
Whether we agree on a definition of twinking, whether we agree it’s even a big issue, the results are pretty plain. It *is* harmful to the experience, and while I think complaints can get overblown (the same way all complaints about invasions can get overblown), I don’t think it’s a stretch that we’ve taken a big big step back from DS3. (And twinking was still p gross in that game too!)
Newer players get the worst experience of all, and the inevitable result is more and more of them turning away from the game, or mirroring that same hostility to players they meet and potentially causing them to turn away from the game as well. Meanwhile, the playerbase gets tired of seeing the same sh!t in every invasion, then they get tired of seeing the same complaints about said samey sh!t, and eventually everyone gets bored or sick of the stagnant toxicity and moves on with their lives.
We CAN aspire to more, and I argue we should. Not because twinking is individually bad or unfun, or that twinking makes you a bad person individually, but because we recognize how diversity of experience is good for us AND for everyone else in the long run.
Maybe there is a place for twinks at the end of the day - but they sure shouldn’t be skewing the bell curve this much. And unless there are external factors trying to correct for twinking (which is what the complaints and community/in-group policing are ultimately about), the tragedy of the commons will continue. Easy mode gear with easy mode tactics, making the game duller and more repetitive until that’s left is ten lifers throwing rot pots at each other in a barren, overgrazed field.
I don't think Elden Ring needs an easy mode, but Palworld like sliders and crossplay. That way, everyone can play how they want to play without worrying about dumb stuff like this.
For people who want overleveled or overgeared characters, invading them, they can have that. The people who want to play multiplayer with friends with no invaders they can have that. I don't see how this makes the game worse.
Very eloquent and compelling, fellow bad redman. 👍 Great video.
Twinking, at its worst, is pretty cancer to deal with to be honest. I can absolutely see how a new player would think it's bullshit (it is). An unbalanced game however is, ironically, pretty fun. But it's a spectrum, if it's too cancer it very very quickly goes from fun to frustrating and boring.
Elden Ring could have done more to limit the degree to which you can twink. If you are a host in limgrave, against a proper twink, you stand very little chance.
I have started a 2v2 taunter's tongue PvE playthrough recently in preperation for the DLC. One thing I did is I gave myself 99 of every bolus because one thing that's really boring, annoying and obnoxious is rot and other status effects. I simply refuse to lose to a shitter because he rotted me. Otherwise, it's a completely, honest playthrough (aside from me pretty much dunking on all the invaders because I don't shower).
On the flip side, I wish you talked more about the downscaling in this game. You mentioned how the multiplayer system pretty much transfered as is from DS3, but that's not entirely true. The downscaling in Elden Ring is utterly ridiculous. I don't know if this game uses the same equation as DS3 or not, but the result is definitely much worse than in DS3.
In Elden Ring, """"downscaled"""" phantoms are more cancer than any twink could ever dream of being. They pretty much keep their defences, they keep their status buildup (which is why an overleveled yellow procs any status in 2 hits), their damage is still very high and their mana bar practically doesn't get cut down much at all.
Invaders right now are pretty much forced to min/max the fuck out of their build to even have a chance of overcoming the overleveled phantoms.
I tried invading on my second playthrough as I was going through the game and the phantom would take damn near 15 hits to kill, while he killed me in 2. And since this is L2 Ring, they get to spam to their heart's desire (mages too).
Fromsoft could have done much more to prevent this state of things, but here we are.
Oh and I also cheated in a serpent hunter for some specific gamers who need the chainsaw therapy.
Elden Ring has been my first fromsoft game, so I decided trying a solo taunters tongue run to se how things were like before with solo invasions, I absolutely suck at pvp so I got my ass beat up, like a lot, but I enjoyed the challenge, and mainly I dont mind twinks at all, fairplay you progressed the game to get the gear you need by handicapping yourself. The problem arises when some guy shows up with 2 weapons that are unique per run, and then realize they are not even good at pve, they just get some weird crap airdropped to them witn no effort of their own.
Honestly i dont think the original idea of a Twink exists anymore, now its just... optimized builds for invasions.
great video as always emotional jon, i find myself min maxing broken builds at the lowest level so i can to make deathless invasions, i 100% understand what you are talking, great job :D
Well said, and if I can add, well spoken!
I like this types of videos to keep me occupied when I’m walking the dog, or to kill time in my day with my earphones, so I hope I see some more from you, subbed.
I know it’s kinda different but I’d love to hear your opinion on the history of buffs and nerfs in souls games. Usually, PvE gets the short end of the stick there since PvP is where “balance” is most necessary. I guess I’m just sad Stars of Ruin is mid in PvE now lol
As much as PVE isn't my niche, I'd be interested in exploring the balancing impact of things intended or maximized in PVP vs their use in PVE. I truly adore that PVE and PVP builds can be the same in these games and I'd like to delve into the nuances and where it's at its best and worst.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Man ive only dabbled in elden ring invasions, and i was 10 when darksouls came out, but these videos are so interesting to me for some reason.
The way you interpret the experience is what you make of it. When I got invaded by a pre-nerf Double Vykes dude on my first run and got malded into oblivion, my reaction simply was "lol", and summoned more people in the hopes of fighting them again. Other individuals react as if it was the end of the world and a hate crime was commited against them. Maybe some players are just very soft :P
I think it's a lot of very new players who are looking to be dismissive of someone who rocked them. Like, sure, it sucks that the game can sometimes be incredibly unbalanced but that's also a big part of the fun.
I see a lot of players who are just anti-competitive and really don't like invasions in any capacity, so any opportunity to dismiss the mechanic or set their own rules for how it has to work helps justify their mindset. I suspect you're right that some players are just very soft.
In my personal opinion the fact that Elden Ring is a open world game kinda changes the definition of a twink for me.
If you just explore a bit in Limgrave and Liurnia and maybe Caelid which are all easily accessible you can find a lot of very powerful equipment very early on.
You don't really need endgame gear in Elden Ring to be quite strong early on, i mean you get fcking Storm stomp in the very first ruin, you can essentially start out with dual katanas if you pick Samurai and sprint to the cave to get the Uchi and then you can put bloody slash on both by buying the lost aow in Weeping and dublicate it in roundtable, or put it on two straightswords for early bleed psss and there's a lot more examples.
So in my opinion unless you are using stuff like scarlet rot weapons/rot pots or certain very powerful spells/incants you aren't really much of a twink tbh.
I very much agree with this sentiment and I'll be making a video on it hopefully soon. What even defines a level-appropriate invader in a game where you can go to 4 different zones in the first 20 minutes. There are so many options that it becomes impossible to have any meaningful expectation, so you have to come prepared for the worst or accept a big risk of getting caught off-guard. It's an interesting system for sure, but it's not always consistent.
scarlet rot and poison are really the only problematic things at low levels since you can't have a decent way to remove them and they are really easy to apply. Other than that yeah, anyone can get a really good setup for pvp in less than 30 min of starting a new char just by gathering some flasks and elemental infusions like sacred blade or flamming strike on a weapon of choice. 3 people running a simple setup that is easy to aquire should be able to deal with a single invader if they are not braindead. Problem with twinking in other souls games was mostly the damage able to be dealt, in ER you can achieve that in early game areas so it's not that much of a problem anymore
@@miguelnascimento2847cure poison is sold at round table hold for 1000 runes and costs 7 fp and 10 fai. A sacred seal costs 800 runes. If you go into multiplayer in limgrave where a Miranda flower can proc it, what’s the difference when an invader does it?
@@TheAzul_Indigo that's a fair point, I didn't consider it. I guess rot is the only problematic thing. Also remembered that you can get poison mist from the lake in caelid and the poison incantation in the weeping peninsula so from those alone it's fair game
@@miguelnascimento2847 Yes! You can also get the poison grease cookbook from tombs ward catacombs.
"Get invaded for getting a date"
Mr. StealYoGirl has invaded
Babe wake up, another analysis video from Emotional John just dropped
I don't think there is a debate tbh.
Since invasions are 2v1 to 3v1 in almost every case, twinking is fine.
I have like 100 hours of invasions with my twink character on ER, and from the experience I have, most of the invasions are against an overlevel phantom and a twink host.
When I am matched with a true pve host who has basic equipement, I kill the phantoms and have a fair play weapon in my bag to fight the host.
The only thing I don't do is using Cheat engine or a friend to give me stuff. If I want an item, I go get it solo, and I think that's what every player who want to twink should do.
From "PREPARE TO DIE!" to PREPARE FOR SOME BULLS***! LOL
Banger after banger, my good man.
I hope your channel only grows :)
That last invasion was so wholesome btw. Thanks for that.
I don't necessarily have a horse in this race, but I think twinks aren't really anything to get worked up over. If hosts can kill every single enemy in an area and then set up the most perfect gank squad known to man, I say fair game.
Although I will say that anyone who uses the chainsaw exploit has the lightest nuts on the planet, even more so if they have a macro set up for it.
Perspective is a great thing. There's bullshit on every side and I'm here for all of it.
This does make me think - How much of the pvp discourse in Elden ring is invader limitation centric? Invaders (who have one job to do in invasions) seemingly are expected to have so many different rules of conduct, limitations, things they do to fight with one hand behind their back and only using their nose to push buttons, while hosts can do whatever they feel like. Ultimately, this topic feels like it comes down to people wanting to restrict or tell other people they can't do something cause they feel it's unfair as they lost to it. Never mind the unfair bits they themselves engage in. In other words: Rules for thee - but not for me.
Much in the same vein, I think a common thread that all sides of the pvp discourse here have is nobody likes or wants to be told what to do. Or how to play a game. People being advised to "turn off multiplayer" (or given any number of sound advice) must feel like getting told to play in the kiddy pool instead of the adults side. Players fundamentally do not like being told what to do in their player experience by other players, no matter how legit the advice is. But are perfectly fine with telling other people what to do. Especially if there is a social framework where the party giving orders can be labeled as the "legit, good people" VS "the scoundrels and bad people." Again, it's rules for thee - but not for me. Gamer culture is easily identifiable by a want to be the ones the rule book supports, as one who co-signs or writes the rules has the ultimate benefits in anything. They are the god-mode tools in a sense. Write the rules others follow, and nobody will notice if you yourself break a few.
I think fundamentally, so many players being used to having the ability to eat their cake and have it too just can't handle being subject to rules that they cannot alter to be the most beneficial to themselves with no drawbacks. Many players are used to being king of the playground they are dropped off into...and not just another roamer who can get bowling pinned if someone so feels like it. And this problem of "MY" power fantasy Vs that which fights back and makes one look like a chump, coming into a clash seems to be somewhere close to the root of this whole dilemma. It's an alien experience, which has no regard for peoples feelings on it. So how bout that, ye lowly Tarnished? Emboldened by thy flame of ambition! Or in other words - I can think of few things that suit the feel of the game world better than this kind of brutal dethroning of the players. Turning them not into Lords, but mere lowly Tarnished that fight among themselves for scraps of power. Less them playing a game, and more the game playing them as it were.
Very insightful! Everyone loves kicking ass and hates getting their ass kicked, and so many people are completely immune to the hypocrisy inherent to that mentality. If there's one thing I want to accomplish with these videos, it would be to give people the perspective necessary to appreciate all aspects of a game that's willing and able to push back.
@@emotionaljonxvx Most players like to zoom in and focus just on their own experience. Which is perfectly fine. Problem is when it comes to discussing balancing or other topics in a game it tends to bloom into factionalism and straw manning. Where the conversation shifts away from the topic of balance into proving anyone who does not support an argument or offers counter claims must be morally, intellectually and as human being inferior and must be stomped into the ground. Not only bested, but humiliated so badly they never come back.
Basic Fandom problems, in other words. Where who is right is morally superior and who is wrong is the crazy inferior people. Words like love/hate/etc getting slung around, so casually synonyms such as like/dislike fall to the wayside.
Very few players are interested in balance for all above balance for I, and even fewer are interested in considering an opposing side's argument when discussing said topic. It's always extremes, too. Makes civil discussions on anything very hard.
I definitely like your way of going about it as you try to stick to the matter at hand, considering differing opinions, while offering your own opinion. Nuanced discussion is much more interesting than the Redditor hyperbole that feels like it's everywhere.
Another great video!
It's the Snake Ant Twink! Get him!
Just so you know even though I personally don't like twinking I absolutely love fighting them myself with my prior pvp knowledge it genuinely feels like fighting a randomly spawning miniboss.
I'll usually only bring in another summon since I know most invaders absolutely hate solos and I don't want to be sever blocked lmao.
That's the beauty of invasions. You get something weird or absurd so often and everyone gets to dictate their own style of play.
Absolutely love this video and its conclusion. The thing that got me into invading was doing randoms coop a lot and I couldn't defend hosts against twinks. I decided I needed to embrace it and to get better at PvP by invading others. I just want to stress how difficult invading can be on that side too especially in Elden Ring with the amount of attacks that are present (including ashes of war). As someone that had zero invasion experience I found myself getting beat a LOT of the time, but I wanted to get better so I continued
Overcoming the adversities and getting better at game mechanics truly made me appreciate just how multiplayer works in From Software games, but invading does become about power. I understood specific build making better now that I have a few lower level invader builds to invade with, though I try to go easy on hosts that don't have twink phantoms because I adore the interactions just as much. That said, twink phantoms are definitely a problem just based on high levels (talking a minimum of 75-100 levels above the host) as the damage that they do is insane, so I feel like invader twinks had to make more tailored builds that lean towards heavy damage on lower levels to compensate for that too
...it is extremely satisfying to nuke people with Scarlet Aeonia at RL40 though
Each time i watch a video about this topic, it always boil down to :
1- A comparison to previous souls games (usually favoring ER)
2- A statement that the game works as intended (usually followed by a "suck it up kind of argument)
Theses two do not mean the game is perfect and without flaws. It can still be improved and I think we should discuss it.
I agree, I don't hate them, and its hard to be mad at twinks when Elden Ring unlike the souls games is an open world game. On my first playthrough I got all the way to altus plateau, through Leyndell, and into mountaintops before I even fought radahn or rykard. I just kind of missed some things until I was way over leveled. I was about level 60-70 and doing invasions with gear from mountaintops as I played through the game, does that count as twinking? Maybe but it's an open world game and that was just the order that I happened to tackle it in. When the game world is so open in the order that it lets you progress, you cant be super ass mad about people doing it in a different order and getting "late game" gear earlier.
Well said. If I'm level 50 in Stormveil and get invaded by a level 50 who's been through Altus, are they twinking? Should they somehow be accountable for catering to my experience? The game isn't set up for it to work any other way and I wish people would embrace that instead of being dismissive.
100% facts right here!! Couldn't have said it better myself. Everything in From games is meant to be a challenge...its the only reason we always come back!!! Not because we masochists, but because will live for the sense of accomplishment! New to your channel...subscribed ..and I will be back!🙏🏻
I laughed at the fat rolling Samurai.
Most twinks nowadays will kill a new player in an honest fight, as they just have better fighting experience. However, twinks also get access to the whole list of ashes of the war, best flask tears, more healing, all the statuses, All the pots, and an understanding of mechanics and level design newer players don't have. I have yeeted so many Gank squads off cliffs because they did not know how Radahn gravity pull work, and twinks can leverage that fact. The cloaking veil alone get so many newer players killed because they run headfirst into a gank because the other dude is invisible. I do not know how to fix it without making invading impossible, or completely unenjoyable.
All I do know, is that twinks get t-bagged when I kill them.
Pro tips:
As an invader, block everyone in the session after you kill a phantom to stop the running twink host from resummoning their friend(s)
A DC counts as a win, some would argue even better
Try to find some mercy in your soul for obviously dogwater new players, I like to kill the phantom, and if the host overcomes the challenge alone be it a field boss or many enemies, drop something, like runes or weapons
You know you’re bad and bitter when you do things like that 😂
I loved bloodborne twinking. Bl43 with +10 weapons and 25% gems. I mainly co-op'd cause invasions were much harder to get for me when return to yharnam isn't going on.
I also love Bloodborne twinking. I think having everyone have access to the same quality of heals and parrying being so strong regardless of level really helped to balance the game regardless of level or weapon.
I’m almost an exclusively solo host, but I’ll throw on way of the blue and taunters tongue for really chaotic fights, and I’m NOT twinking myself, I’m just playing thru the game.
Stormveil castle is probably my second favorite legacy dungeon, but I CANNOT taunters tongue in there because all I get are twinks who are comically bad at the game but get carried so damn hard by how stacked they are.
I almost never DC but when it’s rot pot spamming twinks with lightning nagakibas, I don’t feel bad
So if you ask me yes.
Me (souls veteran) and my friend (completely new to souls) wanted to play Elden Ring in preparation for the dlc both with fresh characters and in the first 2-3 hours we got invaded like 10 times by the same 3 people, all of them were insanely tanky, had a lot of healing and used stuff that is borderline broken with either Scarlett rot or a basically one shot Stormcaller.
Don't get me wrong min/max invasions are completely fine imo but as soon as your build is obviously Made to ruin the experience for others especially early game it's just bullshit.
It's one of those things where there's a line between griefing and twinking that everyone needs to draw for themselves to some extent. I like to think all invasions, good and bad, are a worthwhile part of the experience but I wouldn't blame someone for not loving a rot twink or one-shotter dogging them all night.
Boring builds are the only real problem for me but I get why people make them. It's easy. I just think twinking can be so much more than broken or OP quick kills.
Thanks for the comment
Yoo can u share that build?
Yeah, it's a Wretch level 10 +3/+1 using Soreseal, Starscourge Heirloom, and Omensmirk with 1 level in strength to get 23 STR for the cleavers and the other levels into vigor
There's a premise your anecdote seems to imply that I take issue with: that new players getting obliterated by players they have no chance against and the game bending over backwards to cater to them is a true dichotomy. If you were to, say, get invaded in the Burg by an experienced yet honest player who beat you in a somewhat competitive fight, would that not have provided a similar experience?
I had a similar first invasion to you - for all intents and purposes it was the same: getting one shotted by pyromancy in Undead Burg. My response was entirely different: I swore off online entirely and immediately disconnected my console from the internet. This was after I decided against what I saw was my better judgment to try playing online knowing that invasions could occur. So I fundamentally disagree about twinks or "appreciating" them in any capacity. All that experience really accomplished was to wall me off from the multiplayer ecosystem that players are intended to be part of in whatever minor or significant manner. And I've been on that side of the equation as well in DS3, the game in which they are arguably the least oppressive. I still felt way too powerful, and the invasion that brought that point home was against a four-player squad at the beginning of Undead Settlement. I just...kind of walked up and dismantled them one by one. They weren't exactly great players, but one of them was slinging Chaos Bed Vestiges at me. I don't know if Greatsword of Judgment is considered meta or tryhard at low levels but that's what I was using.
Given how much the devs have tried to curtail and insulate players from them, they seem to agree that they aren't a necessary or healthy part of the game. They likely still exist because the most draconian measures against them would adversely affect other parts of the game they wish to preserve (though part of me would love if weapons came pre-upgraded like in Code Vein and they were forced in your inventory when you reached certain areas). I still firmly believe that the changes to solo invasions culminating in their effective removal in Elden Ring is an acknowledgement of that.
At the core I guess I just disagree that players should embrace hate, spite, or other such feelings, and I certainly don't agree that the games are made to evoke them - I tend to avoid PvP in games in general because I don't want to participate in that cycle (I largely invested time in PvP in these games in order to be a better cooperator). I see these games more as a firm but well-meaning mentor who wants to bring out the best in you.
Alright, first off, thank you for the thoughtful comment. I know it takes a lot of effort to put this stuff down and I appreciate the engagement.
To your points, this is a fundamental mischaracterization of what I'm trying to get across with this or any of my videos. I am not trying to imply in any way that my experience is at all representative of how other people have approached the game. It is, in fact, far from it and I understand that better than anyone.
What I am trying to communicate is that the way people experience and conceptualize twinking, and invasions more broadly, are actively harmful to their experience. When people label invasions or twinking or ganking as disruptive or unintentional or decidedly unfun, it colors their perception of the game and what it should be, rather than what it is.
It is a fundamental dismissal of an entire portion of the game based on preconceived notions of fairness or justice or whatever. When people treat any form of gameplay other than the one they approve of as inherently negative, it only serves to reinforce people's negative perceptions of those playstyles, and thus the cycle continues.
What I am suggesting is that people open themselves to an experience they are not currently open to, especially if they are the sort of person who hates it. It doesn't take some special quality in a person to find value in these mechanics, nor does it require some sociopathic indifference to the happiness of others.
Nothing about what I'm suggesting here is meant to evoke hatred beyond the hyperbolic animosity between invader and invaded as characters. The hatred I am suggesting people feel is not something I am suggesting should destroy them, but is a metaphor for turning a hatred of invaders into a hatred of losing. Not a literal, foaming-mouth vitriol that disallows fun, but an encouragement of motivation and perseverance. It is colorful language not meant to be universally quantifying.
I don't think people shouldn't play the games offline and I don't think there's a right way to play. I'm trying to get people past their hang-ups on bad experiences and help them embrace a unique system that I don't want to see disappear. I'm not trying to paint invasions as fair or balanced in any meaningful way and I think it's fascinating that these game modes exist, therefore I want people to engage with them because I think they're worth it, blemishes and all. If every single counterpoint I get is "No one likes them so they shouldn't exist and I don't participate because I hate it" well that is exactly the thing I am arguing against.
Your personal experience is your own and no one can take that from you. If you like it the way it is and have no qualms with any part of the game, then more power to you. But if you fundamentally hate something about the game, I am suggesting you really try to gain perspective on it before dismissing it entirely because you might otherwise cheat yourself out of a new way of thinking and enjoying the game. That was the case for me and I think it's perfectly reasonable that others might feel the same if they give it a chance.
Sorry for such a long response, I just thought you had the most approachable way of telling me I'm wrong and thought maybe you'd get something out of it.
@@emotionaljonxvx To be clear, I'm not at all against invasions on principle and think they are a mechanic that should continue to exist and be improved upon, be it by From or by other developers. My disposition toward them is "neat conceptually, but I don't care for their execution." I just consider twinking as distinct from invasions and think it's perfectly fine to call it out as harmful to the experience for some since it creates a negative first impression that is not representative of them as a whole. With that in mind, I might see this video as an attempt to reverse that effect in your own way.
If I could reframe your stance into something that is more agreeable (to me at least), would it be right to say that you believe players should avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater and try to make the best out of the experience as it exists?
Fair enough if that's what you meant re: hatred. And while I don't mean to imply that invasions are primarily a sadist's affair, surely they are more attractive to those who are captivated by and wish to emulate displays of power.
I understand that one should try to gain a better understanding of something before dismissing it or deciding you hate it, and maybe one like myself who has made a serious effort to do so over the years isn't exactly the target audience of a video like this - I imagine you at least accept that there are some who can and will come to an informed conclusion that it's not for them. In that sense, I suppose "I don't participate because I hate it" (with the caveat that one has given it an honest try) sans "it shouldn't exist" is what I'd go to bat for. And maybe you'd agree under the right circumstances.
I appreciate the long response - it means you're substantively engaging with my points.
@@UnknownJudgment I think that is generally fair enough. Really, the important thing for me is that "twinking" is a low level build niche that doesn't have to be exclusively negative and they've done a lot to curb it's more harmful effects (though it and the whole of invasions still need work).
A lot of people who hate invasions or are fine with them but consider twinks an exception I think come at it from the perspective that new or unprepared players deserve to not be invaded and that twinks are exploiting some sort of unintended mechanic, which I feel ignores exactly what invasions are.
If FromSoft wanted to not let low level players get invaded, they could easily reinstate the level limit from Bloodborne or a host of other mechanics, but they instead chose to implement weapon level matchmaking, allow downscaled summons, and tether invasions to cooperation, which I think speaks volumes about how they want the issue addressed.
Whether or not it's fair is a separate argument entirely and I think will be largely circumstantial, though I do think there's a strong argument for fairness being a very skewed way to view invasions.
In either case, I want people to embrace what the game is doing by allowing unique methods of play and not shy away because they have negative experiences, because I feel people are missing out.
If, like in your case, they are well-versed in all aspects of the mechanics and simply don't like them, they likely don't need me to convince them otherwise. The video is, as you suggest, intended for people whose minds have been made up prematurely.
I get invading, like any PVP, attracts the worst of the gaming world and that makes it easy to view as a sea of shit, with twinking as the literal and metaphorical lowest of the low. I want to be a voice of reason that says "Hey, Sea of Shit rules" and also everyone should try every part of the game in earnest before they pass judgement.
Appreciate the genuine engagement and hopefully I don't come off as obstinate or elitist because as much as I do think it's funny to act like a bastard I want everyone to get as much out of these games as possible.
too many new players do not want any struggle, and they do not understand the history behind the from soft games.. and thats a shame...I was a noob to from soft when I bought elden ring, but I did my research, learned the history and culture and now I love the struggle
bro what
Endless pots, finished bleed builds, and rapid firing crossbows with rot/bleed bolts….yeah, being level 5 wretch helping my level 10 friend out in limgrave is so fun. People twinking to feel good about their “skill” when in reality they run at you pressing LB with dual bleed weapons, so you get proc even if you roll. Big brain, much skill🤦
9:38 This kind of cuts to the root of the issue for a lot of these conversations, there are 2 kinds of players, the player that respond like you, that get blasted by dark bead and want to try it, and the players like me that get blasted by dark bead and think, "no that shit is disgusting I'm never using that thing". For me a huge part of why i play souls games is because i have specific build ideas, specific spells, a specific character, I'm going for. This very rarely intersects with the meta, and in fact it often specifically avoids it. If i see too many people using a certain setup it looses its edge to me, i want my "character" to stand out. This is why the "if you think its so op just use it" response doesn't do anything for me, it goes against the whole point of why i play.
Hey, I completely agree with you. I want to play my way and try to be as meta-averse as I can. What I found so appealing about the one-shot elimination was the idea that you could be that powerful. I don't particularly enjoy reducing fights to a single-round shoot-off, so I try to find the best way to play my own way.
I certainly understand the appeal for people to mimic an easy kill build, but really all I want people to appreciate is the idea that you can do a lot with a little. I like to try to find ways to counter those sorts of builds using things I find appealing, though it doesn't always work out.
I think this series does a (mostly) good job of letting people use what they want. It's not often in a game where I feel equally valid using a dagger as I do using a greatsword and this series has given that to me in one form or another for over a decade. Elden Ring hasn't been the best about it but I'd be lying if I said there weren't options.
@@emotionaljonxvx I think the last patch did wonders for build diversity, however the top setups are in my opinion still too powerful to a degree i find disheartening. To be honest at this point is mainly just stuff like PS setups and a couple ashes of war that need tuning, but the effects of their presence are, imo, overpowering for the meta.
The interclass balancing is also pretty bad in my opinion: there are many weapons per weapon class, but only a few are worth using. I challange you tot take the Lucerne into an invasion against 3 people, it completely out classed by every halberd and spear. This is a personal shame for me, because the lucerne has alwasybeen my baby since ds1.
Lets say i want to make a historically accurate knight with a short spear and a simple wooden round shield. Unfortunately, you can barely compete with that build, because there is no advantage given to a short spear to make up for its short range, and no advantage given to a wooden shield to make up for its low defense&stability. (seriously no one ever uses wooden shields in these games because they are so excessively out classed)
At this point im just complaining, which is not generally something i like doing for too long, so ill stop here., I just wanted to paint.the picture of what im talking about. The point is, while the game has made a lot of progress, theres still progress to be made.
Yo Jon, I appreciate your content but you might want to factcheck the Dark Souls 1 invasion mechanics. You can't invade any level above you, there's brackets in place.
So I'm pretty sure that the brackets only apply to Dark Souls Remastered and not the original. I could be wrong but everything I can find suggests you can invade infinitely upward in the original. If I'm wrong I can post a correction but since they took the original PC servers down (and I think Xbox and Playstation as well) I can't test it for myself.
One might say that your pyromancer *melted* your health bar
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I really like your youtube videos. You are making the video essays I'm too lazy to make , honestly.
The thing about Twinking in souls games is, it just is not what it used to be. The host team has it so goddamn easy now.
Like you said, back in the good old days, you got invaded by a dark bead twink (while solo) and got one shotted. There was no guarantee you had summons or a rune arc or any real advantage as the host.
Back in these days, whining about twinks was very justifiable. My first invasion ever was a bastard like this in undead parrish. I thought he was the coolest thing. I wanted to play like him, and be bad red man.
But today, it's so painfully easy for hosts, I have trouble not having a smug grin when they try to whine.
Today, hosts have:
Rune Arc (40 level bonus)
Double heals
Usually 2 overlevel summons
Can fogwall with no way to stop them
Enemies now target invaders (they do, they're just sneaky about it)
They can resummon at any time if they start losing, and blues will show up as substitute gankers even if they don't.
I could go on.
The safety nets they have are absolutely ridiculous.
Let us also talk about the overlevel summons. Almost every host has at least 1 overlevel summon. If they are 10-50 levels higher than the host, it is not a huge deal. But when it becomes a 100 level or more difference, it is a goddamn nightmare for invaders.
Lets say you are level 40 invader, and so is host. His phantom is level 200.
This summon has inherent advantages over everyone else, and they are very large.
The only real thing that gets scaled down on overlevel summons is the health and weapon level.
Things that do not scale down:
Innate defense. When you level up, you gain innate defense not tied to build or gear at all. Overlevel summons keep this, so their skin is literally thicker than everyone elses.
Damage scaling. While upgrade levels goes down, the stat based scaling of weapon, ash, and magic damage stays the same as it is in their level 200 world.
Meaning they are insanely tanky, and deal a shitload of unjustifiable damage.
They also retain all gear and spells from their endgame level 200 world.
That last part is important.
Overlevel phantoms are not just twinks like some invaders, but are demigods compared to host and invader due to bad scaling.
Not to mention, the phantoms will often give late game gear to the host so he is a twink too.
Yeah, it's bad. I have a lot of trouble sympathizing with hosts on this one.
Overlevel summons with endgame gear and twink hosts are absolutely rampant. Everywhere. You will not get away from them.
This is why i feel it is justifiable for invaders to use whatever the fuck they want. If host team twinks, invaders should twink. That is just the way of it. Until michael zaki really does something about overlevel summons, invaders will continue to twink, and there will continue to be nothing wrong with it considering how easy the host team has it and how many of them are twinks.
Let us also not forget that endgame gear isn't even necessarily better than early game.
You get bloodbound fang early game and it is literally one of the best invasion weapons in the game.
It varies.
You get it though. I kinda sorta think hosts have no grounds to complain about twinks when they're doing it even more, on top of the easy mode version of invasions they have in Elden Ring.
I think it's just another sad excuse to bitch about invaders in general, honestly.
Completely agree. I never want to be dismissive of the hosts who have never invaded to see what it's like for the other side because it just breeds hostility when we all love the same game. I want to encourage the positive hostility of knowing what you're going up against and embracing that these games let things be unbalanced. I know people hate twinks so I had to make my case. I wanna bridge the gap to give people the perspective to love these games for what sets them apart instead of people trying to make them like every other game on the market.
"I had power demonstrated to me in an unforgettable way..."
Right, you've convinced me. Twinking hard starting today.
(In fact, the most I twink is using Grand Merchant to get armour that's either locked behind Morgott/Radahn, and then solely for fashionsouls purposes. That's literally all it's about for me. Also I may get the extra Pouch slots solely so I can wear the invader's mirror, alongside 2 functional talismans, to hide the red look. To me, unless it's Bullgoat+Varre mask, these are legitimate and not even twinking.)
However, twink invaders don't turn people off these games. People who are like to be turned off these games by PVP are going to be turned off by ANY invaders. Seen it many times on the ER subreddit.
EDIT: damn you really went all-in for defending the experience of invaders. Bravo.
The urge to twink is the reason I restrict my low level invasion builds between 70/90 (I avoid lvl 60 because it's as bad as 125/150 bracket) you still get a lot more of an advantage then you would at 168 and above (due to the insane damage everything does past lvl 110) but you're also not (usually) picking on newbies who just started the game and want to enjoy it with freinds.
It is a difficult balance to strike for sure. I love the idea of an invader being a formative experience for new players but I try to balance how I'm fighting to not make it insane, though I'm not always successful and I'm not always gentle. I've been invading at 200 lately on a sorcerer and while I still get ganked every so often, getting more natural invasions from basically big noobs is a lot of fun too, but damage is god damn absurd.
@@emotionaljonxvx It helps that the dlc has brought a lot of people back even if other big games like dragons dogma 2 are slowing it down some..
I prefer 168 for high lvl 200 is a bit too excessive for me.
The only right way to invade low level is to twink as hard as you can, but know when to hold back when you invade honest players.
I don't enjoy noob stomping. It's unfair, it's actual griefing, and it's a hollow win. So I try not to.
go a step further if you can stomach it. i try to intentionally loose against most people i like while showing them smth cool or how a mechanic operates that they clearly dont understand yet. and gankers get the spank ofc no questions asked. full treatment for a good ol soul cleansing
I’ve done 400 hours of Elden Ring twinking and I’ve grown out of it. 139 is the level I most enjoy.
Its been out awhile. Cant really say its a problem :)
Very true. I understand plenty of players are still "new" by the logic of not being veterans but these games have always shirked training wheels so I've never really taken issue with getting the full-frontal experience right out the gate.
I do not think the lack of balance is a feature and not a bug. It would seem to me that while coop & pvp are important to Souls games, they have always taken a back seat to story and pve. If they could fix all this, they would. Twinking is what it is but it is definitely a bug. Lack of region matchmaking is a missing feature. Lack of rewards for pvp is a missing feature. Invading outside boss doors is a bug. Honestly the game needs a major rework in the area of pvp. Lets not call this a design choice or even a good design choice. Lets just call it what it is. I still love the game, but I see what it could be were it to continue to grow.
Very well said 👹
It is hard to love rot/lightning pot, poison weapon infused, banished knight armor, large glintstone scrap, frenzied warning stone (all this in one) players at RL 10-20 though 👻
For sure, there are some busted mechanics full stop. I love the little idiosyncrasies in these games but I wouldn't object to some better balance.
If you can’t beat them, join them!
I don‘t like sweaty twinks,
but I like the fact that Elden Ring makes it necesseary,
to even barely stand a chance against 24/7 gank-fights, having no co-reds thanks to TT toggle and endless blue swarming, 9/10 cases including overlevelled summons with barely to no downscaling-
even less.
it's not often your level 30 invader can beat two level 700 phantoms, but when the helpless hosts gets alone and more often than not disconnects out of pure fear, it makes it worth it.
The first time I heard the term twinking was a while after the release of Diablo 2, but it's probably older.
While I did play Diablo 2 back in the day, the first time I heard of twinking was in WoW. I think it's been a thing for about as long as any online gaming with RPG elements.
But the real origin from my understanding is "munchkins" or min/maxers in wargaming and tabletop like D&D. Same idea but just pen & paper instead of computers and internet.
I just can't help but twink. I've beat the game at level 1 a few times, I have access to anything I want no matter the level. And when I'm invading, there's always these opportunities to do stuff that I just can't miss out on. I HAVE to have a greatbow because knocking people off a ledge with it is too funny. I HAVE to have something like endure claws and stormhawk axe because sometimes, those are the ONLY things that can save you from being stunlocked in a corner by 3 people. I have to have a bloodhound step weapon because 3 competent people chaining running attacks can be literally impossible to avoid without it. The list kinda goes on, depending on the build, and that naturally results in what anyone would call a "twink." Just can't help it, some of it is born out of necessity, some of it is just for fun, but at the end of the day any build I make below 125 is a twink.
Immediately got disappointed when you weren't talking about skinny short boys
theres never an excuse to use rot sleep or golem arrow on people with less than 2 hours in the game, twinking is a problem, and it has been a problem that FS has never been able to fix. its good to have a good mentality for problems with no solutions (at least as of right now), but to not address it as the serious problem it is would be foolish
I think every invader needs one or two scummy option to deal with scummy hosts and gankers, but all in all, I discourage twinking because it can stop you from getting good at the game. Optimize builds to your heart's content, but don't let it replace skill and don't be a griefer.
There needs to progress leveling similar to weapon leveling where you can’t invade early areas after reaching later ones. Twinking has been a serious problem for noobs and low level play since the beginning of souls. The fact that players can get literal level buffs like ring of favor/prisoners chain/millicent’s means that going that route becomes the meta for all who want to low level invade. As for those who defend twinking, it’s simply a skill issue.
PS: obviously once you reach ng+ or meta level then this should allow invasions everywhere, which is not a problem
10:10 How is getting over powered gear and one shotting a low level character "skillfull" or "extreme efficiency"
I'm a twinker and I love it.🤣✌️
I used to turn on twinks/scummy co-reds if the host was genuine in former games.
Not ER I don‘t, it‘s a terrible online environment and needs fixing, which would be easy if From just took the leap.
- being online = open to invasions like in DS2
- Blues should equal the numbers of reds and have cooldowns on death
- password summons should be: HEAVILY nerfed, removed, or open up Invaders in the same bracket as the highest lvl summon
- Rework Taunters Tongue: only able to toggle when resting at grace!
- raise the player limit to 6
Yeah, Elden Ring botched a few key interactions and it really skews the whole thing. I'm trying to make the best of it but the lower player count is really the thing that breaks me. I want big fights!
Invasions past lvl 100 aren’t fun for me too much ganks with projectiles I’ve put a lot of hours in on all lvl brackets 80 is my favorite
11.10 the times you invade at low lvl and only fight builds are going trough the game is 20% at the absolute most. there are way more players with semi finished or completed builds. yup also at sl20
Those guys I fought in Summonwater were all around level 20 (iirc) and they gave me a hell of a fight. Not fully formed builds mind you, but that mariner was no help at all and 3 even remotely competent builds running at you non-stop is a hard fight no matter what.
I bring the perfumes for emergencies and I was glad to have them there.
@@emotionaljonxvx perfumes are so good its crazy no one seems to use them. you can jump punish a spammer but if you use them as sudden burst dmg, theyre insanely effective. a great tool for a frost bite build that uses dex weapons^^
My favorite thing to do in souls games are build Twink characters. That’s what keeps coming back that’s just how I like to play.
same
I love low level pvp and i have clips of my honest invader as in 2 slots only starting stuff and i got a partial parry on a ol summon arcane build and between the damage i took from it and the bleed it proced a partial parry killed me on my regular lvl 30 i beat the game with it wouldnt have happened
I'm gonna make a video (maybe even stream) about a "fair" invader who only uses Limgrave gear. I did it with the High Wall in Dark Souls 3 and I wanna give it another go in Elden Ring, if for no other reason than I just love starting areas so much.
@@emotionaljonxvx it's great I did a invasion this morning with it and had a blue spawn in full bull goat with duel nogi and dragon halberd (using winged tear) definitely worth a try
RL 55 non twinking Invader build but then i am being put against 3 man gank squad with all end game area items then got shit pots all over
Dude you can one shot people lvl 125-150 with giant fire ball, 80 faith and two giant catalyst
yes. yes, twinks are a problem. if you wonder why the invasion system is they way it is currently look no further than twink invaders. also i'm gonna have to give some pushback against the claim hosts twink as much as invaders which is patently untrue. hosts are playing through the game to get the stuff twinks already have. of the invasions you've even shown in the video only 2 hosts were using gear they technically should not have access to in limgrave. i take slight issue with overleveled summons, essentially due to the fact that you need a password so technically you'd need to interact outside of the game to even meet them so they would in fact be friends, so i take issue with invaders having problems with players wanting to play with their friends. if you find no issue with twinking neither should you find issue with fighting overleveled summons with end game gear. essentially to twink you are deliberately bypassing balancing methods fromsoftware placed to keep matchmaking for the most part fair, while still being able to connect to players. so even if your intention is not malicious invading or TT with a twink build objectively you are looking to go into an encounter with an overwhelming advantage over your regular opponent. twinking and for that matter overleveled lose a lot of their power once you reach meta levels due to everyone having the same access to items and gear. bringing these exact same items to bear against players who don't have access to them is essentially the same as bringing brass knuckles to a boxing match and when you eventually pulverize your opponent you ask him if he's having fun? something you failed to touch on why twinks are a real problem and the real reason aside from balancing as since twinks inherently inhabit low levels and early areas they for the most part invade new players. this experience now colors how they view invaders going forward and gives them the perception that invaders are "cheating", although some cases they actually are. twinking is the worst it's ever been due to CE, before i would think an invader would have to go through the game at extreme disadvantages to get their op gear with CE that is no longer the case for both hosts and invaders but you won't find new players using it.
so yes twinking is a major problem. twinking is skyrim for invaders you fight people who can't outdmg your flasks, can't outheal your dmg, and won't outlast your consumables. getting 2/3v1 in invasions right now is pretty much an attempt at dealing with twinking on FS side. having overleveled phantoms in DS3 did little against darkhand or dragonslayer axe 3-4 shotting you just like the host so they added player 4 to the mix. so if you're an invader and are tired of getting 3v1 gangbanged blame twinks as someone who's pvped since DS1 the changes they've made thus far to multiplayer seem to address this the most.
I do twink
It’s to stand a chance against password phantoms
Half of the issue with the abusive twinking is removing solo invasions so the invaders are always going to get 2-3 players and next to no chance for a coinvader. On top of that the hosts who are struggling and summoning for help are the only ones getting consistently invaded. Invaded by people who have minmaxed their setup to counter PW phantoms.
But conversely a twink is nigh unbeatable for two properly leveled players at the lowest levels. Co-op below level 30 is hell because every invader is a horrible twink.
Just disconnect if it's a gank
@@yikes6758 valid point but I do tend to keep the more cancerous items for obvious overleveleds spamming rot breath and wave of piss and moonveil.
That's actually a really good point i've never seen tbh. Never thought about how by making it so you can't be invaded solo it made it so that the people who are struggling so much that they need to summon end up getting invaded, that makes a lot of sense when you see the sentiment by casual hosts being so anti-invader, because to them they were already struggling enough that they had to summon friends to help and then an invader might have killed them once or twice, rubbing salt into the wound. If they just allowed solo invasions then this would ironically disappear as an issue largely, since people would be getting invaded regardless of if they are struggling in the game or not.
Elden Ring made Invading a nuclear arms-race against max lvl summons in low-mid brackets,
forcing people who‘d be laid back while playing to become sweats, or be one-shot if they don‘t.
That is not a valid point a twink can die to 3 guys swinging katanas at him cause bleed does a percentage of hp no matter what and DC is basically giving up imo and I don't invade to give up but I also don't use bs against regular co oppers ol summons get the bs
I don't disagree, I think there's a lot of shitters who invade like anything else. Same with shitter hosts or summons. However my only real issue is starlight shards and rot boluses being to hard to get. They could get rid of shards and I'd be cool with it though. I dupe so neither are an issue for me personally.
I make full on cosplays, restricted and still manage.
there is incentive to be a shitter. it also doesn't help getting bagged and shit potted after the blender 😂. That would be more on the petty/vengeful side.
I dont believe it's necessary either way though. I also think a lot of people disagree on what a twink is. I think it's literally nothing more than a competent player that's low level. I don't think it's bad though.
I don't care for shitters, regardless of levels. Cancer 3 stacks for example, a gank doesn't bother me that's fun. Or co-op with my kids and some turd wants to rush host with blood curved powerstance at lvl 30 +3 while im wanting to fight them. Its lame. But i get it.
In short there's a difference in twinks and griefers.
There's a difference in griefers and the most effective tactic available to you.
I don't have a point at all 😂. Just an observation on shitters.
Well I often think of Captain Jack Sparrow; "The only rules that matter are these; what a man can do, and what a man can't do".
When I first got into eldenring I thought twinks were unfair, overpowered, ect. But there was nothing stopping me from doing the same thing except the knowledge of how. That is skill. It takes a bit of know how and game knowledge to make a "twink" build. And even then, the crappest pvp player still would be at a disadvantage playing with such a build. So its either cry about the "unfairness" or get gud. Classic souls philosophy
"You are, without doubt, the worst invader I've ever heard of"
The problem is the possible power gap, its can just get so big. All things dont need to be equal, but getting one shot just feels awful. The problem on Elden Ring are brutal gank squads. And the chainsaw.
If pve and pvp loadouts where closer, I could agree with u. With how the game is rn, nah. Invasion sucks and it probably won't ever be big again. It's not challenging getting invaded by a full pvp optimized build, it's just cheap. So yeah pvp in souls will probably never be relevant again. It'll just be ganks and twinks.
I wish we could have invasions be a big part of anyone's experience, but for that the regular pve needs to prepare u better for pvp. U can have 300h and dominate pve and have zero experience with all the good items for pvp.
When hosts and their overleveled phantoms point down after a 10 minute fight as if they destroyed me instantly, I realized that being an honest red man was being a dumb red man. Throw the entire kitchen sink at hosts. They'd do the same to you and tea bag you when you die.
I decided to make an honest RL 20 with the greataxe and got pointed down on by a OL phantom holding the fallingstar beast jaw. I knew then their fairness criteria are meaningless.
Personally I think the biggest problem here is the cheat engine. Ye sure - if you can beat the game without leveling once and with +3 weapons it does seem fair this way. But tell me which one of them Twinks does it fairly? You even see people like Oroboro having dropped fucking everything by a friend with Collectors Edition ON STREAM. And the comment is "A lot of generous people on my stream man".
I agree, and that player is me. I farm my own golem arrows at RL20 because I have no friends and don’t want to figure out cheat engine.
honestly convinced me to make a twink, thank you. loved your take on the whole thing.
Oh..
I'm gonna be honest and keep my comment short.
I feel like most twink invaders are just people spamming rot breath and using a poison antspur at beginning level, or abusing glitches. There's no real fun to that, it's just griefing.
And most phantom twinks (I call them anti-twinks) are just as stupid and easy to kill as their brand new host they're trying to carry, you can kill them with a +0 pike so easily it's unreal.
Twinking is in theory just a "demonstration of power", but in practice it's a gateway to griefing new players for fun.
how many hours of low lvl invasions did you do? 5?
@@Crit-Multiplier I'm generally an invader and not a host, so I only fought twinks when showing the game to friends new to the game. Generally all we fought were rot/bleed twinks. I'm not counting phantom anti-twinks.
And I have done many, many hours of invasions, including low level. But for low level I generally only bring low level equipment aswell, with non-maxed flasks.
9:54
This is the problem, Jon. Deep down, you are a powergamer.
You got shitstomped by a twink, and it inspired you to attain that power.
When I got invaded by a twink in DS1, my humble knight got absolutely nuclear bombarded by dark bead spam. And you know what that thought? That these people are playing with scummy tactics to stomp honest newcomers to get a fix of power fantasy, and that I would never sunk so low like they did.
You know what I wanted back then? I wanted be like Solaire and throw lighting bolts. I wanted to be like Tarkus, wield a huge ass sword and push the golem off the stage, just like Tarkus. I did not want to power game, nor sweat my balls off min maxing the game, because I did not derive enjoyment from the game doing that, I'd beat that challenging game MY way, and so I did.
While your arguments are largely valid, it's coming from a philosophy of a powergamer, which I'm sure it's just a small portion of the playerbase, and I'd bet my Greatsword that the majority of playerbase, specially newcomers and mid level players, just want to enjoy the game their way. Your philosophy is not shared by most people, you should keep in mind that.
Also your new player cheating thing does not put you in good lights, when I was younger the thought of cheating never crossed my mind. I assume because I never played Skyrim, probably. That why beating Dark Souls 1 felt so rewarding and I felt in love with the genre, the joy of overcoming a (fair) challenge.
Last thing, there at times in this community sound overly hostile to casuals, angry at the catering of the "lower denominator" playerbase; people fail to realize these casuals are still fucking playing Souls games, a genre of games widely acknowledged to be very hard, real casuals would be playing Farmville or Candy Crush, and not "dying simulator" game genre, while I generally agree with a gatekeeping stance in many different games, Soulsborne games do not need it nor it is warranted. Mostly because the game already does the gatekeeping, kek.
I think my point is less that how I view the game is right or that I don't think people shouldn't be able to play their way, but more that I'm trying to give people perspective as someone who used to feel very differently about these games and have come around to a different viewpoint. I don't think everyone wants the experience I want, just as I didn't always want it. What I'm suggesting is that people open themselves to the experiences the game facilitates, even when the experience is extremely hostile and shitty, because you don't know what you like till you try it.
I understand different people want different things from the game and I know that I'm not representative of any group. I'm trying to use my perspective to help other people inform theirs. I want everyone to get as much as possible out of the game and I think being dismissive of any playstyle without truly experiencing the full scope of what it offers isn't a great way to know what you're missing.
And as far as cheating goes, I think games should take great effort to inspire the best in their players. I think the Souls games do this well but that there are areas for improvement. I think many games, more casual or grindy RPGs, spend too little time ensuring the experience is engaging the whole way through, instead relying on "one day, it will be fun". A lot of MMOs come to mind there. I'm not advocating for cheating, especially not in a competitive sense, just trying to be honest about the way I viewed games before I got into Dark Souls.
Idk as long as youre not toxic about it i dont mind these builds. If it becomes too annoying i either go to the arena and train there or i equip better gear or turn off invasions all together. Having the luxury to having invasions being optional is a very positive thing in my mind. In Darksouls it was annoying as fu**
"Twinking's bad." Said the Host as his lvl200 phantom stood by his side.
"lol, lmao." Said the Red Man.
If you get ever get chainsaw’d you should have chainsaw’d faster lol.