Holy moly that's probably my nerdiest video to date. Keep this nerd party going with some (not very) light reading on facing carbon fibre bike frames: bit.ly/2ZQxlEc and the original article on facing I did: bit.ly/3gDIEpg
You're right that it seems far less acceptable that proper finishing isn't done at higher pricepoints. I'd say this is part of the more expensive bikes reflecting higher overheads and full-process costs than cheaper ones. So more design time, R&D, wind tunnnel work or whatever, higher marketing, lower quantity, and probably being part of a large company with a lot of staff to pay all add up to expensive product but not necessarily better made product. I'm not trying to let them off the hook for that, more wrapping my head around the how and why of it!
This is a great piece of bike geekery. I am a fan of Hambini too who exposes the pretty rough tolerances that is the result of mass manufacturing. It is basic engineering that interfaces that aren' t square or flat will wear inequally. There is only so many lubes or bushes that can help. I am about to build a steel gravel bike (a first, wish me well !!) and even thought it is a modest budget facing the interfaces is first on the list. Thanks. Excellent discussion. Peter the Clydesdale
Maaaate thanks so much! Much appreciated from a fella whose channel is becoming a bonafide monster! You're doing amazing work with your content I've been watching recently. Plus I occasionally see your name on Strava leaderboards around Adelaide which is rad!
Ride Adelaide ah that makes sense, That’s my friend Adam (makes cycle tours here in japan) He definitely would be up on the leaderboards, proper beast!
As a bike mechanic I can't remember how many bikes came out of the box with disc brakes impossible to adjust because of uneven surface. And my boss telling the client "It'll make less noise with time"... Shame
I think I know why shops don't want to do it. It's because these kids working part time on summer break from school don't know how and the shop owners don't want them trashing somebodies frame they might end up having to replace. You would be surprised at how little these workers know and most don't have the mechanical skill or sense to even touch a bike with a rag.
Stop thinking, you are absolutely wrong and the guy in the vid is correct. Shops that own this type of equipment would only have knowledgeable mechanics do this type of work, smh.
Concerning extra costs, I heard a podcast about manufacturing costs in china/taiwan. Basically it would cost about a $20 surplus to have tolerances in for example the bottom bracket area that are actually to a decent standard and won't need facing afterwards. This is not a cost that 'will kill the business', except the industry is to focussed on costcutting and have high margins for marketing, markup, distributor margins. If we as customers spend €4000-5000 on a midrange bike with shimano DI2, we can demand correct tolerances. Good video, facing is worth it.
@@JustRideAdelaide I believe it was one of the nerd alert podcasts of cyclingtips. With the owner of Factor bikes, but I'm not sure which one because I listened to a bunch of them in random order while in the car
@@madmonkeycycling9098 Great! Thanks I'll have to chase that one down. I've fallen behind on Nerd Alert recently too so I've got some catching up to do
BMCR did a great job on my frame and fork disc mounts and steerer tube. Then I got a product recall on my fork and now have to scrap it before I get a replacement. Once you step into the roundabout ...you never leave!
I did work in a bike shop in the 80's and we faced a BB and the paint chipped at the interface of the facing tool cutter and the rounded part of the BB. We explained it to the customer and put some touch up paint on it as best we could. But, that's a risk of facing.
Hallelujah, my brother. The lost engineering of rheaming and facing frames. If you have an expensive bike, just do it! You will notice the difference. It is one of the best established building practices. It should be done for every high end build and rebuild. Nice work, great video.
This really scratched a nerd itch I had, I bought a Yeti SB4.5 a few years back and put a chris king headset in. If I tightened the headset to spec the steering felt almost delayed and if I slightly loosened it, it would come good, but would have some play, which would worsen over a few rides. If I looked side on, i could see a tiny space at the front headset between the cup and cup cap. So your video highlights to me that it could have been frame, headset, stem or even the spaces at fault. Instead of my LBS just saying "oh that's normal, your just over tightening the preload cap" 🙄...... 1.2Nm?? Sorry to ramble mate, just really loved the content 👍 keep up the good work.
Cheers Dallas, glad this could help you out! It very well could be that everything is slightly out of square and the combination of everything makes a big problem.
Brillaint video, and agree that when return is so poor most shops won't invest. I know I haven't for my own business for that reason, but I am considering it.
Dude, you have a strong point!!! I did have issues with my rear caliper when i bought a new 180 adaptor...disc rub party...so i needed to file the damn paint out off that caliper/adaptor...Superb video!!! Cheers! :D
Steel frame builders flare and face the head tubes always. Im pretty confiden the better carbon frames are faced. The bug problem is the ovality of bearing seats in carbon frames.
One thing to consider doing this on a stem - corrosion. Aluminium can corrode and that's the main reason it's got a protective anodization. Especially if you're gonna sweat on it. Absolutely do it if you can on a bottom bracket though because it can extend your bearing life drastically !
I have had BB premature wear problem. The last 3 BB only last 1500 km each. Today I brought my bike to workshop and they cleaned up the thread with a BB shell threading tool. Afterward the crank spindle seems to rotate much smoother. This is on a steel frame.
Great video, and I've had a major brand bike where the disc calliper just wouldn't operate properly. After months of problem-solving, it was decided that the frame needed facing. It worked a treat. It must also be noted that the frame wasn't compatible with Ultegra disc callipers. Once a DA calliper was put on, it worked a treat. Keep up the great videos.
The timing of this video is funny. I've just started collecting reamers and facers a couple weeks back. I've got a steel frame bike (Taiwan factory) with a CK headset which clicks at a certain point when turning the bars. A friend has just bought the same frame set and its visually bad in the tube. Without taking measurements you can actually see some lumps and bumps the coating has covered up!
For the kind of money, all big brand manufacturers should face the frame at the factory. This also means that when checked and falls below tolerance, we could claim as defective
Very good choice on the facing! Just a note on the Open, I did keep away from passing judgement on individual frames, but the one in the film was finished well. There wasn't much that needed to be done.
My last build, a mtb, cost me around £2000. (It was a while ago) The BB and headset facing cost £20, so that’s about 1% of the total cost. So it’s got to be a good idea, certainly on an expensive build.
The topic is fascinatingly interesting and you did a great job at going over it. It would be interesting to research which bike manufacturers produce frames not in need of facing and which manufacturers produce frames which are in need of it. Cheers from Costa Mesa, California!
I just built a Soma Wolverine. I don't have the expensive tools so I took my frame into a local shop to have it faced and chased. They wouldn't do it because they said it wasn't necessary. I wish they did it. The the headset didn't seat as well as I wanted to and the bottom bracket didn't thread in as well as I expected. They're expensive, but I'm planning on buying the tools for the next bike build.
@@JustRideAdelaide they didn't say either way if they have the tools and I didn't want to be rude and ask, but my first thought was that they don't. I can buy consumer-level chasing and facing tools for under $800 USD and it'll be rewarding to learn how to do it myself. Thanks for great video!
Last year, I tried to install a Shimano Italian Bottom Bracket to my new custom bike build. It was so hard to wrench in the new bracket and I didn't know why. So I googled it and found out that my bike may need facing on the bottom bracket. I took it to the shop and I could hear the mechanic grunting to get the bottom bracket faced properly but it was so hard for him and then Eureka. He was able to fix my problem and he installed my new Shimano Ultegra Bottom Bracket. Surprisingly, he asked me to pay him $50 for the labor. To this day, I have put my bike through hundreds of miles and even downhills and uphills with no bottom bracket issue.
Just want to say thx. I'm thinking about a mtb bike fork with adapters, or the rear as well. You've got multiple surfaces there too. Maybe a little in the weeds. But with a thru-axle and 38s for flex and alignment, maybe center lock, also. Getting squared up thru the front end, to the stem, right? And then alignment to g the rear tire to the front, thru the rear axle, square to the BB. I have a real problem with my dropouts after a solid axle conversion. It wasn't true for the QRs either. And that's not new, I've seen it before from the same maker.
A little late to the party. Back in the '80s when steel was king, buyers would order a frame and component group, and the local bike shop would put the bike together. Above a few hundred dollars, all bikes were "custom" made by the retailer. Facing the bottom bracket shell and head tube, "chasing" the BB shell threads, and checking dropout alignment would be the first thing the assembler would do. I was sadly disappointed years later working in a bike shop dealing with creaky and loose BBs. It became worse as carbon frames became ubiquitous. Facing solved the problem every time. I have two steel bikes that I faced as soon as I got the opportunity, and they've held up superbly well, 75,000 miles on each. The bearings are still smooth and shiny, no cracks or fissures, and the bikes climb with authority. I've witnessed expensive bikes like you have, that weren't faced and the BBs wore out way too soon, like you mentioned, a couple of years. Disc brakes would also benefit from facing, for sure. In fact, any surface would benefit from a nice snug fit. They torque down evenly and don't loosen up! Thanks for bringing up an issue ignored by most shops, more problematic on carbon fiber. Manufacturers went all around for press fit BBs and are now going back to threaded because press fit didn't work for obvious reasons. BTW, glad to read Adelaide is on the map with a healthy cycling community. I backpacked through Adelaide back in '65. Reggie showed 3 of us vagabond Americans South Australia bitter beer. Their bread stuck to you ribs. Delicious. Adelaide had the optimistic feel of a frontier town. Took the train up to Alice Springs, unchanged for probably 50 years, in true luxury reminiscent of the American west. Aborigine kids riding horses bareback chased along whooping and yelling. When the sun went down over Alice Springs, the heavens lit up like daytime. The Milky Way was bright all the way to the horizon. I've never seen such a wondrous treat, millions of stars lighting up the night sky, before or since. Just amazing.
I'll keep an eye out for more topics like this for sure. I don't know how often they'll come around but I'll keep sneaking into the BMCR workshop to see what happens
Hambini absolutely roasts the quality of bike tolerances on his channel. His focus is mainly on bottom brackets but he does touch on other examples of very poor manufacturing tolerances on bikes. When you see his measurements and analysis of expensive bikes it's a real eye opener.
I have always had frames built by local framebuilders, facing and tapping is done by the builder. I'm a professional mechanic with a full toolkit, I only need these tools because the quality of many frames nowadays is pretty poor.
I asked a framebuilder to face and he did the bb but didn't recommend the headtube because it will take of paint and then rust can start to go under the paint and get it bubbly.
With frame(sets) selling for several thousands of dollars, the real shame - and shame on you for not pointing it out - is with the manufacturers not finishing them properly. It doesn't need to cost a huge amount (it won't take hours if done on an assembly line using specific jigs and machinery for _that_ frame - which mostly already exist, and the tens of thousands of dollars of tooling should be amortised over the tens of thousands of frames that are produced) and it should not be the responsibility of the bike shop - even less of the buyer. Kudos to BMCR for doing it, but they really should not have to.
@@JustRideAdelaide Thanks for responding. I'm sorry, but the way you came across to me is very apologetic for the manufacturers: "yes, it's true, it should be better, but it would cost so much [it wouldn't - the economics _at the factory_ are not what you make them up to be] and we all want cheap bikes [with $3000 frames?]. If you want something finished to a really high standard then pay for custom." No, I want it properly engineered and manufactured so that mounting surfaces are flat, parallel and to tolerances that reflect the price I'm paying for the kit - which is not low! Again, kudos to BMCR for doing it - but they should not have to. And kudos to you for clarifying what was your intent.
Hey, great video. I understand it, mainly the headset I have seen for myself the effects of the uneven surface. Give you an update I did end up ordering the Look X-Track carbon pedals but to match weight of my XTR pedals I splashed the $ and got the Ti version. Cant wait to get them and hopefully not creaks :)
I get the BB and headtube facing, but why the stem facing? The interface between the stem and the tube it clamps on is on the inside, and from what I could see they are facing the sides of the clamp, so what's the point?
Every bike is different and Pete charges based on time so I can't give an exact number. It'd be at least $100 for an easy facing that doesn't take too long I'd expect but that's in Australia, within the CBD. So not cheap.
Hey James! I tested out my Look X-track carbon pedals today, first impressions were not so good... There was side to side wobble and up and down play so pulling up on down on pedals was just click click click noise but...! This was with Shimano SPD cleats, I never changed because I thought they were the exact same as the Shimano cleat, but if you look real close there are slight differences. Anyway I swapped them over and done a quick test and they are mint and feeling great no noises. Finally a quiet pedal that puts the power down :) Have you been using SPD cleats with these, if you have I would for sure suggest using the look cleat, it will make them feel even better. Lucky I have a separate pair of shoes for mountain biking that I will leave SPD because im not sure how the Look cleats would work with shimano pedals.
Yo Kurtis! That's weird about the clicking. I've used both Shimano and LOOK cleats on different shoes without clicking or any looseness. Are your Shimano cleats totally thrashed maybe?
@@JustRideAdelaide 4000km on the cleats, they are the ones that come with my XTR pedals, they seem solid with my XTR pedals. Might just be the shoes, but changing the cleat for sure fixed the problem.
loved the Video! Its a bit sad that the if we wanted it done properly we would have to pay more on top of the $5-10k+ that you are paying for a new bike, just to have your bike square. bit sad really
Video/title is slightly misleading. Most bike shops DO own tapping/reaming/facing tools. They are probably the most expensive tools a shop will own, but they will be closer to $1500 USD total at shop cost (BFS-1 for bb, HTR-1B for ht, DT-5.2 for disc brakes, and let's say $600 of additional reamers/facers), not $10-14,000 USD. I assume the rest of your quote is from the lathe for the stem facing, which is certainly the smallest gain to be had among the four. Sure, having every surface faced is better than not, but ultimately the difference will be negligible for most bikes, and therefore a waste of time and money for most shops/customers. But if it needs to be done, most shops can/will do it.
There's a massive range of prices with those tools, and Pete bought the ones he believed would do the best job. Take the Park Tools Disc Brake Mount Facing tool that can be bought for under $500 USD versus that Cyclus tool that was $3,500 AUD. Repeat that choice across the whole range of tools and you very quickly reach the quoted number. If you see a wall of Park Tools it's going to be an increment of the cost of the Silva tools used in this video. There's a whole wall of these tools so I have no reason to think he's over-quoting.
@@JustRideAdelaide I'm not doubting he spent that much. The Silva tools are indeed expensive, and as I said, I assume he included the price of the lathe as well. However, you seem to be suggesting that facing/reaming/tapping etc is virtually unknown / not performed / too high of a barrier to entry when it's actually commonplace and much less expensive. It's simply done more selectively in the average shop, and can certainly be done on request. Also, the Silva ht/bb tools don't really do a better job than the Park tool versions, it's a pretty simple mechanism and it comes down to how long it's been since the HSS cutters were last sharpened. I can see how the Cyclus brake tool would be worth it however, if you're doing it that often/proactively (though I'm seeing it for $1000 USD online and $100 for extra cutters, presumably less at cost).
but it seems like the way they are making it will only make the surface flat, not necessarily perpendicular to anything. all the holes are reamed or faced by a different datum, which would be basically useless,. I am not trying to criticize their effort, just that I don't understand the process. can someone explain it to me what is going on?
Facing really can improve many things. Unfortunately, this assumes it's done properly with the proper tools. I've seen bike shops "facing" using hand files. This will likley end up making things worse. Facing is a precision process and requires precision tools (that many bike shops don't possess due to cost) and precision execution by someone trained to properly use them (not all bike shops have these either). I love my LBS's but not all bike shops are created equal.
@@JustRideAdelaide Your video was great - and you showed some of the prices. I just wanted to make sure folks didn't run down to their local shop to start asking for this service, assuming it would solve all of their problems. You might not get what you were looking for,, or worse end up with a botched up BB/Headset/Brake Mount. My favorite local bike shop sells very expensive bikes (BMC/Pinarello, etc...). They also sell frame sets from these brands, and to my knowledge, they do not face them before they do the assembly, taking the assumption that the bike comes built properly with faces that are clean and correct, when quite often they don't. (which you addressed quite well in your video).
I know my rear brake interface needs to be faced, I really struggle to get my brake level/aligned. And anything less than perfect with direct mount and you get noise from the brake. It is a shame the bike shop didn't do it when putting the bike together as It must have been a struggle for them to get it aligned, and im no slouch in the garage and I struggle with it. So the next service ill get it done.
Being a mechanic in the late 80's early 90's you always faced and chased a frame up build - I imagine if I ever skipped it I would have gotten a smack upside the head from the guy that trained me for not respect the craft. Hard not to see a mechanic dialing-in a build as a beautiful thing.
Hey, can you please fix your website (lavelocita), i was trying to comment on an article, made a spelling error & used the arrow keys to move the cursor BUT you have hijacked the arrow keys with javascript & remapped them to be used as navigation to the next & previous articles instead, so my comment got cleared, i rewrote it, same thing again, then i gave up. It's common knowledge to NOT use javascript to alter user inputs
Great video! My ceramic bearing is creaking after 1000 ks. I measured my BB shell width and its varying between 67.4 and 68.2 mms. I am planning to have it faced, but I am afraid that I'll need spacers after its done. Do you know what the minimum BB shell width is for a BSA 68 mm?
@@jojoanggono3229 I had the frame faced and the bearing is smooth since then. No spacers are installed, although I think that the Sram GXP is not sensitive to the width as one side of the axis is floating.
It might. It depends if your rub comes from caliper misalignment or frame flex. It'll definitely help with misalignment but it won't do much if it's because of flex.
I make steel bikes for a hobby I always face all of my bikes the tools are getting cheaper there are a quite a few different brands and smaller workshop brands on the market supplying tools it all depends on how many bikes you will do this to in your life time depends on how expensive the tools are. Great video enjoyed it a lot👍
Very interesting. I think wheelsets take longer to make than a frame, which was surprising to me. Therefore, I really think Chinese factories could face the BB & brake surfaces for cheap. And there's no reason why the tooling would be expensive if it's made at half decent scale, it's just a rod with cutting heads, it's not rocket science either.
They work on pretty much everything. I've seen some pretty amazing pictures of terrible manufacturing on really expensive stuff. Customers often end up at BMCR because they're unsatisfied with the store they bought their bike from.
Disagree. Any costly bike frame should be well made finished and fit for purpose. What would you do if your brand new car door didn't shut properly, just accept it? Be honest, no you wouldn't.
I think the issue is just customer misinformation. Most people would have no idea interfaces could be a problem, and put the blame on the issues it can cause on the wrong culprit. So more like the car you're driving has bad machining in the gearbox that causes it to wear out in 30,000km instead of 80,000km. Most people won't notice it at all, let alone know what it is when an issue does crop up.
It's sort of the same case with cars. I was more trying to tell people that more expensive doesn't mean better finished and that's the same in cycling and in automotive. Take a Ferrari Vs a Honda Jazz. I'd put money on the Honda being finished better for a fraction of the cost. Fit for purpose seems to be a matter of perspective. I'm not defending it, but manufacturers would likely argue that even poorly finished frames are fit for purpose because they're still basically functional albeit very annoying for the end user.
@@JustRideAdelaide Not sure I agree entirely with your Ferrari analogy since many of those supercars are limited edition and are caché because of a much higher finish. Maybe I'm thick but good marketing persuades us to pay £2k for a £500 Far East production frameset but the brand doesn't need to finish it properly? Furthermore, I don't think that consumers are asking factories to skimp on facing to get a cheaper frame- even £1000 is not cheap...brands just want to make more money.
I've been thinking about this a lot and I feel like it's more to do with operational costs than manufacturing. I'd expect things like development, research, and marketing overheads are accelerating much faster than manufacturing cost increases. So while bikes might only be getting a little more expensive to make, all of the back-end is getting REALLY expensive which is then factored into the final product.
Not specificially consumer direct, any factory made bike really. Consumer direct cuts out the distributors and stores which is how they cut a big chunk out of the chain.
That's the case just but Suzuki Honda or face your own bike or just stick with pre 95 even 80s steel bikes none of this extra add shit to your 10,000 dollar bike
I'm with Calvin Jones on this one. If the headset or bottom bracket mounts, turns and adjusts nicely, i leave it alone. I check the side surfaces for crookedness, mount the parts and check for gaps where light passes through. If there are none or only very small ones, i mount the parts and if it all feels good, i leave it as it is. There is no such thing as a perfect fit. Even inside the bearings, the tolerances mean they have a little bit of play which also gives them the ability to adjust to slight tolerances of the other parts. If the guy doesnt know what he is doing or if the tools arent well looked after, that could even worsen the tolerances.
a set of facing tools DO NOT cost $20.000 since a headset tool is only $400 or $500 new from park tools and a cutter is about $150 , if it takes 2 hours to face a headset then the guy is a muppet or just likes over charging customers. overall a biased view
1. A full set of facing tools can cost that much because the full set of them at this shop did cost that much. They've been doing this for 15 years and have had to build up a full range of tools. You've named one single option at the cheap end of the market, which is where Park Tools sit. 2. I never said it takes 2 hours to face the headset. 3. I don't know what's biased about it what I said. It's a completely factual statement of the costs and processes based on a real shop you can go and walk into. You've picked a single piece of information about tool costs, and completely misrepresented what I said to disagree with me.
Holy moly that's probably my nerdiest video to date. Keep this nerd party going with some (not very) light reading on facing carbon fibre bike frames: bit.ly/2ZQxlEc and the original article on facing I did: bit.ly/3gDIEpg
You're right that it seems far less acceptable that proper finishing isn't done at higher pricepoints. I'd say this is part of the more expensive bikes reflecting higher overheads and full-process costs than cheaper ones. So more design time, R&D, wind tunnnel work or whatever, higher marketing, lower quantity, and probably being part of a large company with a lot of staff to pay all add up to expensive product but not necessarily better made product. I'm not trying to let them off the hook for that, more wrapping my head around the how and why of it!
This is a great piece of bike geekery. I am a fan of Hambini too who exposes the pretty rough tolerances that is the result of mass manufacturing. It is basic engineering that interfaces that aren' t square or flat will wear inequally. There is only so many lubes or bushes that can help. I am about to build a steel gravel bike (a first, wish me well !!) and even thought it is a modest budget facing the interfaces is first on the list. Thanks. Excellent discussion. Peter the Clydesdale
Absolutely brilliant video!
You should continue with making content you REALLY want to make 👍
(God damn I want those tools!! 🤤)
Maaaate thanks so much! Much appreciated from a fella whose channel is becoming a bonafide monster! You're doing amazing work with your content I've been watching recently. Plus I occasionally see your name on Strava leaderboards around Adelaide which is rad!
Ride Adelaide that’s weird since I’ve never been there 😅
Even if I was I probably wouldn’t be on any leaderboards 😂
Cheers mate!
@@ridesofjapan ohhhhh I just checked! It's someone going by [Name] RideJapan from the looks of it. Woops, I gotta read more closely!
Ride Adelaide ah that makes sense, That’s my friend Adam (makes cycle tours here in japan)
He definitely would be up on the leaderboards, proper beast!
please you have a lot things at your home ....... stop it I know you want to buy it
You should see if you can get a hold of a hambini BB and do a review, would be interesting for sure!
Henry Germaine ugh, no. Hambini is gross
As a bike mechanic I can't remember how many bikes came out of the box with disc brakes impossible to adjust because of uneven surface.
And my boss telling the client "It'll make less noise with time"... Shame
oof, that's a bummer to hear!
I think I know why shops don't want to do it. It's because these kids working part time on summer break from school don't know how and the shop owners don't want them trashing somebodies frame they might end up having to replace. You would be surprised at how little these workers know and most don't have the mechanical skill or sense to even touch a bike with a rag.
Stop thinking, you are absolutely wrong and the guy in the vid is correct. Shops that own this type of equipment would only have knowledgeable mechanics do this type of work, smh.
@@kingchakazulu7762 Wasupwitdat name?
@@wasupwitdat1mofiki94 Use Google son.
Concerning extra costs, I heard a podcast about manufacturing costs in china/taiwan. Basically it would cost about a $20 surplus to have tolerances in for example the bottom bracket area that are actually to a decent standard and won't need facing afterwards. This is not a cost that 'will kill the business', except the industry is to focussed on costcutting and have high margins for marketing, markup, distributor margins. If we as customers spend €4000-5000 on a midrange bike with shimano DI2, we can demand correct tolerances. Good video, facing is worth it.
Oooooh which podcast was that? I'd love to give it a listen
@@JustRideAdelaide I believe it was one of the nerd alert podcasts of cyclingtips. With the owner of Factor bikes, but I'm not sure which one because I listened to a bunch of them in random order while in the car
@@madmonkeycycling9098 Great! Thanks I'll have to chase that one down. I've fallen behind on Nerd Alert recently too so I've got some catching up to do
@@JustRideAdelaide I think it was ''Peek behind the carbon manufacturing curtain'. Really interesting listen.
BMCR did a great job on my frame and fork disc mounts and steerer tube.
Then I got a product recall on my fork and now have to scrap it before I get a replacement.
Once you step into the roundabout ...you never leave!
Ahh that's a bummer! Was it one of the Curve forks?
@@JustRideAdelaide yes tis.
Hopefully your replacement comes soon 🤞
Yep, watched it to the end and did find it interesting. I enjoy videos that teach something and are not just about promoting brands
Cheers Rod! I really enjoyed making this video so I'll keep an eye out for more interesting nerdy stuff in future.
Great! A problem I didn't know I have! 🤣 Thanks for taking it to the next level 😉! Love the channel.
I did work in a bike shop in the 80's and we faced a BB and the paint chipped at the interface of the facing tool cutter and the rounded part of the BB. We explained it to the customer and put some touch up paint on it as best we could. But, that's a risk of facing.
i always apply a heat gun, to make the paint a bit softer.
Engineering nerd here 👋🏻, awesome video!
I’m triggered that this isn’t common practice. Looking forward to a few more deeper dives like this 🤙🏻
Glad you liked it mate! If I hang around Pete long enough something like this is bound to pop up for the next vid. Plus I can eat all their food 😁
Facing just resolves the problem of angular misalignment. Not parallel misalignment. In that case, you can't do much apart from... warranty the frame.
Great video! You were right, I had no idea what this was, and now I have a very good understanding of it. Well done
Hallelujah, my brother. The lost engineering of rheaming and facing frames. If you have an expensive bike, just do it! You will notice the difference. It is one of the best established building practices. It should be done for every high end build and rebuild. Nice work, great video.
This really scratched a nerd itch I had, I bought a Yeti SB4.5 a few years back and put a chris king headset in. If I tightened the headset to spec the steering felt almost delayed and if I slightly loosened it, it would come good, but would have some play, which would worsen over a few rides. If I looked side on, i could see a tiny space at the front headset between the cup and cup cap. So your video highlights to me that it could have been frame, headset, stem or even the spaces at fault. Instead of my LBS just saying "oh that's normal, your just over tightening the preload cap" 🙄...... 1.2Nm?? Sorry to ramble mate, just really loved the content 👍 keep up the good work.
Cheers Dallas, glad this could help you out! It very well could be that everything is slightly out of square and the combination of everything makes a big problem.
Brillaint video, and agree that when return is so poor most shops won't invest. I know I haven't for my own business for that reason, but I am considering it.
Dude, you have a strong point!!! I did have issues with my rear caliper when i bought a new 180 adaptor...disc rub party...so i needed to file the damn paint out off that caliper/adaptor...Superb video!!! Cheers! :D
Steel frame builders flare and face the head tubes always. Im pretty confiden the better carbon frames are faced. The bug problem is the ovality of bearing seats in carbon frames.
Really good stuff very relevant for all those undertaking bike builds. Thanks mate.
Glad to help mate!
One thing to consider doing this on a stem - corrosion. Aluminium can corrode and that's the main reason it's got a protective anodization. Especially if you're gonna sweat on it. Absolutely do it if you can on a bottom bracket though because it can extend your bearing life drastically !
learnt something new today. Brilliant video.
Super tuning the frame 👍👍
I have had BB premature wear problem. The last 3 BB only last 1500 km each. Today I brought my bike to workshop and they cleaned up the thread with a BB shell threading tool. Afterward the crank spindle seems to rotate much smoother. This is on a steel frame.
I really salivated over the very nice work you guys are doing.
Great video, and I've had a major brand bike where the disc calliper just wouldn't operate properly. After months of problem-solving, it was decided that the frame needed facing. It worked a treat. It must also be noted that the frame wasn't compatible with Ultegra disc callipers. Once a DA calliper was put on, it worked a treat. Keep up the great videos.
Cheers Jayson! Glad to hear you've enjoyed some quality facing
The timing of this video is funny. I've just started collecting reamers and facers a couple weeks back. I've got a steel frame bike (Taiwan factory) with a CK headset which clicks at a certain point when turning the bars.
A friend has just bought the same frame set and its visually bad in the tube. Without taking measurements you can actually see some lumps and bumps the coating has covered up!
Alsways good to see Pete on the tools
This is awesome 😎👍
For the kind of money, all big brand manufacturers should face the frame at the factory.
This also means that when checked and falls below tolerance, we could claim as defective
Facing disc mounts is definitely useful, but @Hambini’s opinion on headset and BB is required.
Thanks for the netd fix, I was looking at the Open U.P for the cost of a good frame a little extra to get it faces is a no brainer. Cheers Dude.
Very good choice on the facing! Just a note on the Open, I did keep away from passing judgement on individual frames, but the one in the film was finished well. There wasn't much that needed to be done.
This is cool, but these things should be done by the manufacturer/factory, especially xhen you buy a 3k+ €£$ framset.
No arguments here!
Now that was an excellent presentation.
Brilliant video
My last build, a mtb, cost me around £2000. (It was a while ago) The BB and headset facing cost £20, so that’s about 1% of the total cost. So it’s got to be a good idea, certainly on an expensive build.
The topic is fascinatingly interesting and you did a great job at going over it. It would be interesting to research which bike manufacturers produce frames not in need of facing and which manufacturers produce frames which are in need of it. Cheers from Costa Mesa, California!
Cheers mate, really appreciate it!
I just built a Soma Wolverine. I don't have the expensive tools so I took my frame into a local shop to have it faced and chased. They wouldn't do it because they said it wasn't necessary. I wish they did it. The the headset didn't seat as well as I wanted to and the bottom bracket didn't thread in as well as I expected. They're expensive, but I'm planning on buying the tools for the next bike build.
Oh wow they said that? Are they a shop that offers it as a service?
@@JustRideAdelaide they didn't say either way if they have the tools and I didn't want to be rude and ask, but my first thought was that they don't. I can buy consumer-level chasing and facing tools for under $800 USD and it'll be rewarding to learn how to do it myself.
Thanks for great video!
@@GreatEgret Best of luck mate! May you find joy and have long-lived bearings from your new skill!
Last year, I tried to install a Shimano Italian Bottom Bracket to my new custom bike build. It was so hard to wrench in the new bracket and I didn't know why. So I googled it and found out that my bike may need facing on the bottom bracket. I took it to the shop and I could hear the mechanic grunting to get the bottom bracket faced properly but it was so hard for him and then Eureka. He was able to fix my problem and he installed my new Shimano Ultegra Bottom Bracket. Surprisingly, he asked me to pay him $50 for the labor. To this day, I have put my bike through hundreds of miles and even downhills and uphills with no bottom bracket issue.
Great to hear! I guess there must've been a decent amount of material to shred off if it took all that grunting and fighting.
Wow, thank you, now I'll be looking for a bike shop that have this service.
Just want to say thx. I'm thinking about a mtb bike fork with adapters, or the rear as well. You've got multiple surfaces there too. Maybe a little in the weeds. But with a thru-axle and 38s for flex and alignment, maybe center lock, also. Getting squared up thru the front end, to the stem, right? And then alignment to g the rear tire to the front, thru the rear axle, square to the BB. I have a real problem with my dropouts after a solid axle conversion. It wasn't true for the QRs either. And that's not new, I've seen it before from the same maker.
A little late to the party. Back in the '80s when steel was king, buyers would order a frame and component group, and the local bike shop would put the bike together. Above a few hundred dollars, all bikes were "custom" made by the retailer.
Facing the bottom bracket shell and head tube, "chasing" the BB shell threads, and checking dropout alignment would be the first thing the assembler would do. I was sadly disappointed years later working in a bike shop dealing with creaky and loose BBs. It became worse as carbon frames became ubiquitous. Facing solved the problem every time.
I have two steel bikes that I faced as soon as I got the opportunity, and they've held up superbly well, 75,000 miles on each. The bearings are still smooth and shiny, no cracks or fissures, and the bikes climb with authority. I've witnessed expensive bikes like you have, that weren't faced and the BBs wore out way too soon, like you mentioned, a couple of years. Disc brakes would also benefit from facing, for sure. In fact, any surface would benefit from a nice snug fit. They torque down evenly and don't loosen up!
Thanks for bringing up an issue ignored by most shops, more problematic on carbon fiber. Manufacturers went all around for press fit BBs and are now going back to threaded because press fit didn't work for obvious reasons.
BTW, glad to read Adelaide is on the map with a healthy cycling community. I backpacked through Adelaide back in '65. Reggie showed 3 of us vagabond Americans South Australia bitter beer. Their bread stuck to you ribs. Delicious. Adelaide had the optimistic feel of a frontier town. Took the train up to Alice Springs, unchanged for probably 50 years, in true luxury reminiscent of the American west. Aborigine kids riding horses bareback chased along whooping and yelling. When the sun went down over Alice Springs, the heavens lit up like daytime. The Milky Way was bright all the way to the horizon. I've never seen such a wondrous treat, millions of stars lighting up the night sky, before or since. Just amazing.
yep ... very informative and impartial video ... oh, and really really really anticipating the Grit review ...
... no pressure though ;-)
I reckon that's next on the list! I was keen to clear this video first because it was going to take friggin ages... which it did... 😅
More of these videos please thanks
I'll keep an eye out for more topics like this for sure. I don't know how often they'll come around but I'll keep sneaking into the BMCR workshop to see what happens
Hambini absolutely roasts the quality of bike tolerances on his channel. His focus is mainly on bottom brackets but he does touch on other examples of very poor manufacturing tolerances on bikes. When you see his measurements and analysis of expensive bikes it's a real eye opener.
I've been curious about facing after stripping an alloy BMX to paint it, only to notice a bit of a mess at top of headtube.
Are the dies cutting titanium bikes specifically for Ti or is it the same die for all aluminum, steel and Ti frames?
Same cutting tools for all of the frame materials
@@JustRideAdelaide Ty!
I have always had frames built by local framebuilders, facing and tapping is done by the builder.
I'm a professional mechanic with a full toolkit, I only need these tools because the quality of many frames nowadays is pretty poor.
I asked a framebuilder to face and he did the bb but didn't recommend the headtube because it will take of paint and then rust can start to go under the paint and get it bubbly.
thanks for so much important information! Keep it up.
Thanks, very interesting!
With frame(sets) selling for several thousands of dollars, the real shame - and shame on you for not pointing it out - is with the manufacturers not finishing them properly.
It doesn't need to cost a huge amount (it won't take hours if done on an assembly line using specific jigs and machinery for _that_ frame - which mostly already exist, and the tens of thousands of dollars of tooling should be amortised over the tens of thousands of frames that are produced) and it should not be the responsibility of the bike shop - even less of the buyer. Kudos to BMCR for doing it, but they really should not have to.
Shame on me for not pointing it out? This entire video is pointing it out. The whole thing. That's literally the whole thing going on here.
@@JustRideAdelaide Thanks for responding.
I'm sorry, but the way you came across to me is very apologetic for the manufacturers: "yes, it's true, it should be better, but it would cost so much [it wouldn't - the economics _at the factory_ are not what you make them up to be] and we all want cheap bikes [with $3000 frames?]. If you want something finished to a really high standard then pay for custom." No, I want it properly engineered and manufactured so that mounting surfaces are flat, parallel and to tolerances that reflect the price I'm paying for the kit - which is not low!
Again, kudos to BMCR for doing it - but they should not have to. And kudos to you for clarifying what was your intent.
Hey, great video. I understand it, mainly the headset I have seen for myself the effects of the uneven surface. Give you an update I did end up ordering the Look X-Track carbon pedals but to match weight of my XTR pedals I splashed the $ and got the Ti version. Cant wait to get them and hopefully not creaks :)
Woooooah that's some fancy stuff! I hope they're awesome for you
I get the BB and headtube facing, but why the stem facing? The interface between the stem and the tube it clamps on is on the inside, and from what I could see they are facing the sides of the clamp, so what's the point?
how much? it's hard enough to find bike fitting here, let alone that.
Every bike is different and Pete charges based on time so I can't give an exact number. It'd be at least $100 for an easy facing that doesn't take too long I'd expect but that's in Australia, within the CBD. So not cheap.
I'm looking around, does headset matter? I know on ones press cups in but what about integrated headset?
Hey James! I tested out my Look X-track carbon pedals today, first impressions were not so good... There was side to side wobble and up and down play so pulling up on down on pedals was just click click click noise but...! This was with Shimano SPD cleats, I never changed because I thought they were the exact same as the Shimano cleat, but if you look real close there are slight differences. Anyway I swapped them over and done a quick test and they are mint and feeling great no noises. Finally a quiet pedal that puts the power down :)
Have you been using SPD cleats with these, if you have I would for sure suggest using the look cleat, it will make them feel even better. Lucky I have a separate pair of shoes for mountain biking that I will leave SPD because im not sure how the Look cleats would work with shimano pedals.
Yo Kurtis! That's weird about the clicking. I've used both Shimano and LOOK cleats on different shoes without clicking or any looseness. Are your Shimano cleats totally thrashed maybe?
@@JustRideAdelaide 4000km on the cleats, they are the ones that come with my XTR pedals, they seem solid with my XTR pedals. Might just be the shoes, but changing the cleat for sure fixed the problem.
loved the Video! Its a bit sad that the if we wanted it done properly we would have to pay more on top of the $5-10k+ that you are paying for a new bike, just to have your bike square. bit sad really
Great video!
An excellent example of “fine, but not great or perfect”
Video/title is slightly misleading. Most bike shops DO own tapping/reaming/facing tools. They are probably the most expensive tools a shop will own, but they will be closer to $1500 USD total at shop cost (BFS-1 for bb, HTR-1B for ht, DT-5.2 for disc brakes, and let's say $600 of additional reamers/facers), not $10-14,000 USD. I assume the rest of your quote is from the lathe for the stem facing, which is certainly the smallest gain to be had among the four.
Sure, having every surface faced is better than not, but ultimately the difference will be negligible for most bikes, and therefore a waste of time and money for most shops/customers. But if it needs to be done, most shops can/will do it.
There's a massive range of prices with those tools, and Pete bought the ones he believed would do the best job. Take the Park Tools Disc Brake Mount Facing tool that can be bought for under $500 USD versus that Cyclus tool that was $3,500 AUD. Repeat that choice across the whole range of tools and you very quickly reach the quoted number. If you see a wall of Park Tools it's going to be an increment of the cost of the Silva tools used in this video. There's a whole wall of these tools so I have no reason to think he's over-quoting.
@@JustRideAdelaide I'm not doubting he spent that much. The Silva tools are indeed expensive, and as I said, I assume he included the price of the lathe as well. However, you seem to be suggesting that facing/reaming/tapping etc is virtually unknown / not performed / too high of a barrier to entry when it's actually commonplace and much less expensive. It's simply done more selectively in the average shop, and can certainly be done on request. Also, the Silva ht/bb tools don't really do a better job than the Park tool versions, it's a pretty simple mechanism and it comes down to how long it's been since the HSS cutters were last sharpened. I can see how the Cyclus brake tool would be worth it however, if you're doing it that often/proactively (though I'm seeing it for $1000 USD online and $100 for extra cutters, presumably less at cost).
but it seems like the way they are making it will only make the surface flat, not necessarily perpendicular to anything. all the holes are reamed or faced by a different datum, which would be basically useless,. I am not trying to criticize their effort, just that I don't understand the process. can someone explain it to me what is going on?
Facing really can improve many things. Unfortunately, this assumes it's done properly with the proper tools. I've seen bike shops "facing" using hand files. This will likley end up making things worse. Facing is a precision process and requires precision tools (that many bike shops don't possess due to cost) and precision execution by someone trained to properly use them (not all bike shops have these either). I love my LBS's but not all bike shops are created equal.
True that Jim! I should've added that the tools are expensive, especially if you buy quality ones. You'd certainly hope they know how to use them too!
@@JustRideAdelaide Your video was great - and you showed some of the prices. I just wanted to make sure folks didn't run down to their local shop to start asking for this service, assuming it would solve all of their problems. You might not get what you were looking for,, or worse end up with a botched up BB/Headset/Brake Mount. My favorite local bike shop sells very expensive bikes (BMC/Pinarello, etc...). They also sell frame sets from these brands, and to my knowledge, they do not face them before they do the assembly, taking the assumption that the bike comes built properly with faces that are clean and correct, when quite often they don't. (which you addressed quite well in your video).
I know my rear brake interface needs to be faced, I really struggle to get my brake level/aligned. And anything less than perfect with direct mount and you get noise from the brake. It is a shame the bike shop didn't do it when putting the bike together as It must have been a struggle for them to get it aligned, and im no slouch in the garage and I struggle with it. So the next service ill get it done.
Being a mechanic in the late 80's early 90's you always faced and chased a frame up build - I imagine if I ever skipped it I would have gotten a smack upside the head from the guy that trained me for not respect the craft. Hard not to see a mechanic dialing-in a build as a beautiful thing.
and what is the price of facing?
It is possible to make ovel shaped headtube to normal ?????????
Does anyone know of a bike shop in the UK with a reputation for this type of work?
Hey, can you please fix your website (lavelocita), i was trying to comment on an article, made a spelling error & used the arrow keys to move the cursor BUT you have hijacked the arrow keys with javascript & remapped them to be used as navigation to the next & previous articles instead, so my comment got cleared, i rewrote it, same thing again, then i gave up.
It's common knowledge to NOT use javascript to alter user inputs
Hey Jesper, thanks for letting me know. I'll have a dig around to see what I can do about that. Squarespace is such a shitshow of inflexibility.
about facing headtube with "integrated" bearings. this planie isn't even working other than maybe with a seal.
Great video! My ceramic bearing is creaking after 1000 ks. I measured my BB shell width and its varying between 67.4 and 68.2 mms. I am planning to have it faced, but I am afraid that I'll need spacers after its done. Do you know what the minimum BB shell width is for a BSA 68 mm?
Perhaps a thin spring spacer might help.
@@jojoanggono3229 I had the frame faced and the bearing is smooth since then. No spacers are installed, although I think that the Sram GXP is not sensitive to the width as one side of the axis is floating.
Quick question: would facing my rear disc brake stop the disc rubbing when I sprint?
It might. It depends if your rub comes from caliper misalignment or frame flex. It'll definitely help with misalignment but it won't do much if it's because of flex.
@@JustRideAdelaide thanks! I might have to have a chat to the guys at BMCR.
Thats some great attention to detail, somthing lost on all these terrible black plastic frames we see 'bikes' being made of these days.
I make steel bikes for a hobby I always face all of my bikes the tools are getting cheaper there are a quite a few different brands and smaller workshop brands on the market supplying tools it all depends on how many bikes you will do this to in your life time depends on how expensive the tools are.
Great video enjoyed it a lot👍
Pleasure David! Thanks for your nice comment. And that's awesome that you build bikes. Super jealous of that skill!
tune products are top notch
When paying 10k on a S-Works bike, I expect that everything that can be done, is done. In reality, it's absurdly bad...
Very interesting. I think wheelsets take longer to make than a frame, which was surprising to me. Therefore, I really think Chinese factories could face the BB & brake surfaces for cheap. And there's no reason why the tooling would be expensive if it's made at half decent scale, it's just a rod with cutting heads, it's not rocket science either.
Hambini would in be in agreement with you.
Long live the punk rock mechanic!
So the 53 year old is like I can't grow a mohawk anymore but I could do two of them
I guess the shop work on Cervelos all the time....
They work on pretty much everything. I've seen some pretty amazing pictures of terrible manufacturing on really expensive stuff. Customers often end up at BMCR because they're unsatisfied with the store they bought their bike from.
Disagree.
Any costly bike frame should be well made finished and fit for purpose. What would you do if your brand new car door didn't shut properly, just accept it? Be honest, no you wouldn't.
I think the issue is just customer misinformation. Most people would have no idea interfaces could be a problem, and put the blame on the issues it can cause on the wrong culprit. So more like the car you're driving has bad machining in the gearbox that causes it to wear out in 30,000km instead of 80,000km. Most people won't notice it at all, let alone know what it is when an issue does crop up.
It's sort of the same case with cars. I was more trying to tell people that more expensive doesn't mean better finished and that's the same in cycling and in automotive. Take a Ferrari Vs a Honda Jazz. I'd put money on the Honda being finished better for a fraction of the cost. Fit for purpose seems to be a matter of perspective. I'm not defending it, but manufacturers would likely argue that even poorly finished frames are fit for purpose because they're still basically functional albeit very annoying for the end user.
@@benridesbikes6975 Yep, I can see that.
@@JustRideAdelaide Not sure I agree entirely with your Ferrari analogy since many of those supercars are limited edition and are caché because of a much higher finish. Maybe I'm thick but good marketing persuades us to pay £2k for a £500 Far East production frameset but the brand doesn't need to finish it properly?
Furthermore, I don't think that consumers are asking factories to skimp on facing to get a cheaper frame- even £1000 is not cheap...brands just want to make more money.
I would commit unspeakable crimes to have a home shop with a set of Cyclus tools. Or even a LBS that cared enough to do it properly.
Hambini without the reaming.
Ah, I guess this is why my discs make me want to jump off a building.
The economics of the industry don't work very well as it is. 10 years ago high end bikes cost $5,000 USD. Now they're more than double that! 🤯
I've been thinking about this a lot and I feel like it's more to do with operational costs than manufacturing. I'd expect things like development, research, and marketing overheads are accelerating much faster than manufacturing cost increases. So while bikes might only be getting a little more expensive to make, all of the back-end is getting REALLY expensive which is then factored into the final product.
Is this part of why direct to consumer bikes can be cheaper?
Not specificially consumer direct, any factory made bike really. Consumer direct cuts out the distributors and stores which is how they cut a big chunk out of the chain.
so the best factory bikes could be put in trash bin, right? facing makes it unique ;-)
I'll bet that mechanic has a hard time finding helmets that work with that hairdoo.
Can confirm he tucks it up into a Kask Mojito. He's had that hairstyle for a very long time so he's a pro at managing it!
Sooo I got this 10 pack of files from harbour frieght for $2.99...
That one guy's hair...
That's the case just but Suzuki Honda or face your own bike or just stick with pre 95 even 80s steel bikes none of this extra add shit to your 10,000 dollar bike
I'm with Calvin Jones on this one. If the headset or bottom bracket mounts, turns and adjusts nicely, i leave it alone.
I check the side surfaces for crookedness, mount the parts and check for gaps where light passes through. If there are none or only very small ones, i mount the parts and if it all feels good, i leave it as it is.
There is no such thing as a perfect fit. Even inside the bearings, the tolerances mean they have a little bit of play which also gives them the ability to adjust to slight tolerances of the other parts.
If the guy doesnt know what he is doing or if the tools arent well looked after, that could even worsen the tolerances.
wow
@hambini
can't stop sayin swaff ... thanks a lot loll
It's such a satisfying word xD
great video. well done.
Flatter isn't always better. Ie my wife
China quality control
...those hair.
I like how we have to pay so much for such shit workmanship
a set of facing tools DO NOT cost $20.000 since a headset tool is only $400 or $500 new from park tools and a cutter is about $150 , if it takes 2 hours to face a headset then the guy is a muppet or just likes over charging customers. overall a biased view
1. A full set of facing tools can cost that much because the full set of them at this shop did cost that much. They've been doing this for 15 years and have had to build up a full range of tools. You've named one single option at the cheap end of the market, which is where Park Tools sit.
2. I never said it takes 2 hours to face the headset.
3. I don't know what's biased about it what I said. It's a completely factual statement of the costs and processes based on a real shop you can go and walk into. You've picked a single piece of information about tool costs, and completely misrepresented what I said to disagree with me.