Thanks for the shoutout T90! Great podcast as always, but since I am at least one of the people who were the subject of the "not invited to RedBull casting discussion", I just wanted give my thoughts on it: Broadly, I agree with most of what was said. It really stung that a retired Jordan and a mostly-retired Nili got invited to cast (and/or do desk analysis) at the biggest, most prestigious event in AoE2. I really work my butt off to put my name out there and improve my casting to the best of my ability, and it still feels like in so many cases there isn't much I can do to make that next step. Of course, I am very far from a perfect caster, and I can't really make an argument that I would do a better job than Nili or Jordan or anyone else - as the guys were saying, it's all subjective. I can't even make a viewership argument because I don't have *that* many viewer numbers in the grand scheme of things. What I can do (and I at least attempt to do this) is to maximize everything I can that is within my control. Cover every event I can, even if it means waking up at 6 in the morning every day for a week. Look back at my own casting, seeing how I could have better described why something is happening or better communicate what is likely to happen. Take every opportunity I can to cast with the bigger content creators for their tournaments (and hopefully leave a good impression on both them and their communities). All of the bigger casters have been instrumental in giving me opportunities and helping me get my name out there - T90, Nili, Memb, GL, and even ZeroEmpires back in the day were all willing to take a chance with me when they really didn't have to. Lastly, I can just try to have the best understanding of the game I can, including the high level meta and decision-making done by the players, the actual ingame stats and unit/civ interactions, and my own analysis on ways the players can act in various situations. I can't speak to any other "up and coming caster", but personally, I do this whole casting thing because I heckin love AoE2: talking about it, learning about it, educating people about it, and theoretically entertaining people with it. First and foremost, if I didn't enjoy that, I wouldn't be casting at all. I totally understand RedBull's perspective as to why they pick the people they do, and I'm sure everyone there will do a great job. This is just my perspective as someone who almost always finds themselves on the outside looking in on such events.
I'm personally not a fan of your casts, but i'm limited in time and didn't watch many games with you. But, these words are perfect for this situation and it would be fair and interesting with you or some of the other bigger names. Wish you all the best🙏
I’ve enjoyed your cocasts with Memb this past Warlords, I’ll make sure next time I have some time to watch AoE2 to check out your twitch and see if you’re casting as well. I like variety so I usually bounce between streams between games. Keep doing your thing, the scene needs people like you!
When i hear you cast a match or talk about the game you always leave me with a good vibe. Keep doing what you do dude and hope the opportunities will come with it. Like you said, you can only control what you can control. Especially love all your work with the campaigns, they have been a personal favourite of mine since the beginning.
Dude your casting has improved so much since I first saw your videos a year or two ago. Your confidence has improved and you have a much better "stage presence" now. If that makes sense 11. I really enjoy your casts and streams. After reading this comment I now know why you've improved so much - you're putting in the hours!
RedBull wants to create a certain vibe with their tournaments and you don't fit their idea of that. Let's be honest here - it's not about fairness to the Community that's their driving force behind their picks - mostly highlighted by the fact that casters like killerpigeon are chosen for aoe4 because it fits their brand much more than a more, let's say, analytical caster.
I think it's important to remember as well that one of Yo's main opponents in the last 24 hours was Barles. Barles realistically had no chance of qualifying, but for several hours he was more or less the only real opponent Yo had until vinchester came online. In my opinion, the only reason Barles was queuing was to give Yo an opponent with enough elo that he could fairly make progress. Without Barles there, it's entirely possible that Yo gives up early, at which point Vinchester also never comes online, and you have crickets for the last few hours instead of all the hype that we saw. There's a real possibility of a big hole in this kind of qualifier at the end, and only the actions of the players kept it from happening this time.
+1 to Masmorra's point that Survivalist is a great caster. He's well spoken, explains the why, and is knowledgeable enough since he's a top 200 player too.
100% agree with T90 on the play by play discussion. We as viewers get a lot more value out of having another person that really understands the game, even if they don't have the classic pbp skillset. Hearing about why something is happening is far more useful than hearing what is happening. I have eyes, so I can do the basics of that part myself.
some casters were doing an AMAZING job casting the ladder when memb/dave/t90 etc were all offline. I think I watched like 8 hours of ornlu and twest -- they are great.
Their viewership was probably much better exactly because it wasn't a classic qualifier. During classic qualifiers with fixed times for the big games you'll always have some of the main casters online, so smaller ones are less likely to get viewers. This not having set times meant that people just go with whichever caster is online and are more likely to go with a smaller one.
I think Daut knows because the community let's him know. I'm not sure though what he would think of a trophy that he doesn't get for a win. He might actually not like it? I can imagine so at least.
What a disrespect to the lord - this sir doesnt need such a childish soft trophy without value, he want compete on the highest level and that means losing is a part of it.
I watched lots of Survivalist play games and pumped my ELO by at least 100 points just by listening to his explanations and guides. I was very surprised when I realized he's not one of the top five casters. Hopefully he'll go bigger! If you're reading this: THANKS SURVIVALIST!
I love the candidness and straightforward nature of the podcast! Saying things as is and not sugar coating. Love the idea of making ladder meaningful enough to encourage player playing the games but not to the point how the qualification for this red bull event. And as T90 mentioned, learning the lessons and improving is the way to go than just throw away the approach altogether. I’m not sure how many players are open to have the tournament maps on the ladder and practice publicly even if it’s to maintain the top 16, 32 or 64 ranking to play through qualifier. The advantage of someone who’s not on the top 8 is to secretly cook strategies with a select few team mates and surprise the top 8. Playing the tournament maps in the ladder where winning matters (to at least manage the top 32) can be hard without showing the hand.
Great episode! I really enjoy t90's experience with the economy behind tournaments and streaming because some realistic views on the future of our game is just as important as hope for a bright future
the mbl reveres sweep against hera is one of the top AOE moments ever. close runner up is vipers Teuton archer play win on final match against liereyy.
Loved the episode! Some feedback about the new artstyle - I find it hard to read and understand and think the old modern/clean aesthetic was better. I also think the old thumbnails were more instantly readable throughout all the other videos in my feed. My two cents but maybe it's just something I have to get used to :)
I think having the ladder rank decide the qualifier seeding (like in Nations Cup, SBARRO) could have given the same benefits of playtesting a lot of maps without the same stakes. The standard qualifiers often have some of the most exciting games with a variety of players and strategies so I want them to remain, but I look forward to the AoE2 scene developing.
"Cast of empires" is a pretty good caster in the style of "play by play" I discovered him a while ago. Hes pretty unknown from what i know but his style is unique and im surprised hes not more popular tbh.
as a spectator honestly i loved this ladder qualifier, pretty much every aspect of it. I didn't even care about the mirror matches, just so refreshing to see top level games left right and center. I hope we get to see more of this in the future.
To me is kind of weird that they did not invite Pinch3. He has not been casting for few months, but he literally lives 2 hours from the castle. Even if he is not the biggest Spanish caster, he is big enough. BTW, still waiting for Tatoh in the podcast :P
MBL played more games than Vinch on the RB ladder overall. Let's not act like if MBL hadn't been 5th or 6th he wouldn't have been playing dozens of games those last three days. Even Liereyy played a couple hundred so everyone was getting their games in. No one was able to play 80 games and qualify or something like that.
MbL played more games than the five players directly below him. He earned the ability to camp his ELO by starting earlier and playing more games. It's just like when people watch sports and they only care about what happened in the last 5 minutes. While other people were prioritizing other things and not taking the RBW ladder as seriously, MbL prioritized it, and he was rewarded for it. I don't see an issue with that.
Okay, here is my thoughts: to analyze it we need to draw plot who feeds points to. To understand how ladder was moving. Secondly, many were playing ShenAiXie Cup.... and instead of 2-3 weeks they have to play only 1 week... EW ladder is the reason for many upsets in ShenAiXie Cup... btw Sebastian - is a monster to win and to grind into top3. bringing smth like > No one was able to play 80 games and qualify or something like that. If you've missed, everyone played 200+ games...and every top10 300+ at least. The trick was WHEN you've played and against who. Sebastian were getting +5 +8 in his winning streak... (and Heart literally gifted him spot with -36 points). While Larry was on streak against Hera & Yo with +13 +20 at each game.
small little detail - i like it when casters let me know when the window of damage for feudal army is over, and that they don't overhype the clear up of an army that we have spent so much time watching, because the caster already focuses on the next step, looking towards castle age timings etc
Yessss my favorite content! Edit - I’d be curious to see hours watched statistics (though that’s probably not doable). I also assume total hours watched was higher but haven’t seen any data so far one way or the other.
This was a great episode congrats both(and of course the people behind the scenes), i felt like this was very fun for both of them, the last episode was also good, but maybe even if you known each other for years(and also doing "this" for many years), need a few hours to know how you coud do it very well together?!
Jordan and nili have paid their dues, have many who love them, and are entertaining and insightful. It is a massive benefit to the community that they have accepted the offer to cast. Please do not throw shade on them. They definitely both deserve this and will be better than many of the newer casters. Well Daniela would have been nice too.
On T90 just being able to step back for a few days and not think about content also has to do with his former Facebook contract. I wish more people in the community could get access to this monetary peace of mind to focus on themselves and their preferred content
Nili and Jordan are huge names of Aoe2 community. They were kind of important points of the last RWs. The insights and comment quality they can bring is huge. I understand the issue and how many casters are investing big on their content, but let's understand that point first
Those 3 points also apply to all of the other casters they mentioned. And frankly the more active casters can almost certainly provide better insights than those who have been out for a bit.
@@LordBenji1287 are you sure they are as known? Same revelance in aoe2 hostory? The caster and tournament relevance of Nili? The experience in playing tier S tournaments of Jordan? The experience of Knowing how a player is feeling or mentally thinking in a though semifinal??? Hmmmm.... I don't think so.
@@bassegoder Jordan has been somewhat checked out for many years with erratic comebacks. He has technical ability but he's never been the most creative or analytical and strategizing player, he just executes really well. I'd argue there's like 20 players who would be able to provide similar or better insights than him and only 8 can participate in Red Bull as competitors so that leaves a dozen of other spots. He's just more liked by people with influence and many of the viewers get blinded by his big smile. Agree about Nili though, I don't think there needs to be any discussion about validity of his spot. He has unmatched experience as tournament organizer and has been one of the big casters for many years. His break wasn't even that long and he still kept up with the game to some degree (he smacked Hoang in EW format in May for example), he's more than competent enough to be there. I really wish people like Ornlu, Survivalist or T-West were given a chance however... Sadly El Reinado is limited in scope compared to the past (but I'm very glad it's back regardless!).
Purely speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jordan's paycheck is much lower than the other casters. Not suggesting that he isn't taking it seriously, but I can see this being more of a fun week away for him that the others, with much less pressure. Obviously if he casts an equal amount to the "big 4" then I'm probably wrong... Also, Red Bull did bring in a new person in Ellie for the last LAN. I think she was more in a presenter role (same with DreamHack afterwards), but I'm not sure if she made a huge impact with the audience in the same way that Riley (or maybe Dash) has. I think that even after being away for a year, Jordan is still probably the most popular non-player in the scene that they could have invited, and therefore the safest option. I can see a world where the organisers may have just reached out and offered to pay for his travel and upkeep for the tourney in return for some contribution.
It's pretty clear Red Bull was mostly looking at popularity of people they invite considering how they shoehorned an invite for Viper. In that regard, Jordan also makes sense (and it's hard to blame Red Bull). As for Ellie... truth is, it's mostly because she's a woman. Inclusivity is popular these days and you can clearly see it in all the promotional graphics where Red Bull tries to represent females evenly with males even though there isn't a single female pro player in aoe2 (yet? there are some potential rising stars, wishing them best luck). There was a lot of better candidates than Ellie but she was the #1 popularity choice among girls. Survivalist had to do some hard carrying for her in the B-stream.
I didn't watch a single game of the EW ladder. maybe like 5mins here and there and even that is generous. No 1 game mattered, so didn't see the point in watching it. Followed it a little whenever someone puts out a video to discuss the situation and give an update. I might watch the qualifiers. When do they start? The part when they talk about it being stressful, well I mean it should be stressful. this is the highest level with the biggest reward. No-one forced anyone, its just ladder at the end of the day and people choose to play, when they want, as long as they want. I do get the boring repeativness of the matchups and that not being fun, just constantly queueing and playing the same over and over, that will kill most peoples motivation for that length of time. But now imagine how Premier League players feel, or chess players.
The caster choice probably was a very hard one. To compare Nili and Jordan to someone like Survivalist/Daniela/Ornlu/T-West seems a bit off. I agree with Masmorra to introduce 1 new name which would be cool but at the end of the day how would you choose this person to make it fair to the others? If you invite T-West this would probably feel even more disappointing to Ornlu or Daniela. From this point I can absolutely understand why they went with 2 very well known and liked names in the community. In the case of Jordan it's fair to say that he "quit" AoE2, but Nili needed a break. To not consider him with everything that he did for AoE2 in the past would be egregious. He did so much work for the scene over the years... The one person I can think of that always gives the "smaller" names at big events a stage is Memb at his events. Through him I was actually introduced to many different casters and names like T-West, Moonfaller (although he quit), Survivalist. It would be much better to integrate these smaller casters in the non-lan big events rather than expect the smaller names at these huge LAN events. Until they reach a certain threshold of popularity and then they can get invited reasonably...
on the caster situation, I really liked what memb did on Warlords 3, such a huge variety of casters, some I didnt even know yet (im reletaviley new to the scene), but memb and warlords was the reason I am following so many more casters than before, like twest and ornly, in the end its variety, players and caster wise, I get though that with a tourney like RB places are limited, for players and casters, but my suggestion would be more participants on both sides, less or a more evenly split pricepool. 9k for qualifying and just having 8 players there suchs IMO. as for casters, yes accomodation etc. costs money, but im sure noone needs a hotel, hostels are fine i guess. I mean look at the first NAC, there were literally in Nilis apartment. just my 2 cents
Great podcast, t90 has been a great addition. The only thing I'd say, and this isnt a criticism of redbull or anyone in the scene, it's purely from a business perspective. It's not redbulls job to grow the scene or give people opportunities. Redbulls job is to give maximum exposure to redbull for minimum investment. The 'big 4' casters all generally have at least 1k viewers on an average casting stream, no one else comes close. Same with players, Hera and Viper pull over double the viewers of Tatoh/Yo/Daut/Mbl both on their streams and in people who watch their tournament matches. Tatoh/Yo/Daut/Mbl then get over double the views of the players from 8th-17th in the world. There is absolutely no business incentive for Redbull to expand the tournament or invite other casters. We are generally spoiled in aoe2 that the biggest tournament hosts care about the game and are invested in it doing well. There is an incentive for them to have bigger tournaments (also the cost of this in an online tournament is far lower) it increases the amount of countent for them, it gives new players a chance to shine and attract viewers, and they can give people they like, or contribute to the scene air time, especially in the earlier rounds. In short if people want more players/casters at events like this they need to actually watch them. The amount of people I see moaning about how more players should be included but when players outiside the top 8/casters outside the big 4 (eng) stream stream like 100 people turn up to watch them baffles me.
Very true. Red Bull could improve a lot of things for sure but their perspective is completely different from one of a simple viewer, a struggling content creator, a pro player and so on. AoE2 is just one of countless projects they participate in, it's not their main content. We as a community should be grateful that Red Bull decided to invest into aoe2 at all (hopefully they're getting good results seeing how they keep coming back and hopefully they will listen to a lot of feedback if they will continue the support) while also trying to do what we can to appear more enticing to other sponsors - it's great that Microsoft sponsors most of the events and that Red Bull showed up as well but in the end that's just two sponsors, they could go away any time. It would be really beneficial if AoE 2 wasn't so reliant on just them. Other esports thrive because they have many different brands offering sponsorships. Online activism is rampant but in the end what really matters are hard numbers. People have to watch the streams, the VODs, generate interest.
I thought the ladder was a great new addition. I would only add some advantage for the players who finished in positions 5-8 in the qualifiers. Now someone like Yo starts from square one in the qualifiers and has got no benefit from finishing fifth
imho, all issues come from the fact this rbw only have 6 qualifier seats.... if all top 14 players from the ladder qualifies, (almost) everyone will be happy. btw survivalist cast? HELL YEAH!
Need everyone to start watching all the top 14 then. If double the amount of people watch Hera/Viper over Liereyy/Daut/Yo/mbl/tatoh and only half the people who watch them watch accm/Heart/vinch ect. Its diminishing returns for redbull.
This may sound counterproductive to making the ladder more active, but what if they used this format, but limited how many games each player can play in a day. Then the games would mean more, it would reward consistent play for the entire period available, and more people would have a chance to qualify.
why is t90 discrediting MBL’s efforts to qualify? he’s saying it’s like mbl didn’t play any games and got lucky that he could camp on the last days. correct me if im wrong but he had one of the most games played. he put in the work early whereas vinch put it in late. not a bad thing
Yeah, I really don't understand why he was harping on MbL multiple times when MbL played more than anyone in the top. Only DauT, Capoch and Andy played more games than MbL from top25. He absolutely deserved his spot, he worked super hard to build high ELO early and everybody knew that would be the optimal strategy, it's not his fault that other people put in less effort. Liereyy played even less than MbL in last few days and less than half overall but somehow T90 didn't bring him up. Liereyy is the best at EW and played smart, he deserves his spot. MbL is one of the best and played smarter than most while realizing how to approach the whole process strategically considering the limitations, he deserves his spot.
im glad this qualifier is over and i hope that was the last time they go with something like that. I almost lost complete interest on the game and the worst part is that there wasn't much else to watch, everyone was streaming EW. Having said that i do believe the actual tournament is gonna be great.
is it weird that i actually miss the days of there not being qualifiers and everything just being considered part of the main event? nowadays i dont even watch qualifiers anymore *because* they arent the main event. for mid-level players like me it was also just cool to sign up for a tournament and being part of the main event, even if we would lose r1. nowadays you have things like Hidden Cup which is a very cool concept except the qualifiers dont have the Hidden aspect that makes it fun, nor even has all the maps from the map pool, so i just dont even bother watching the qualifiers of it and just wait for the main event to start... btw, i also really miss Map Pack rms scripts with the entire pool being available within 1 map randomly picking one. Was so great just hosting lobbies for those back when we still had ranked lobbies.
It was not mentioned that Nili is employed as a tournament organizer for Microsoft. So, he is not only getting paid as organizer, but also getting income from his channel both from the ladder and for the qualifiers and tournament. This income is taken away from those who cast full time. Presumably as the organizer he also had insight into choosing who would cast, which makes it feel worse.
I believe its impossible to do a ladder qualifier that will be fair and entertaining at the same time. People will need to pick the best civs for the specific map and it will end up in max 2-3 civs played per map with lots of mirrors. U cant force random civ with 46 civilizations or it becomes pure RNG who qualifies due to lucky matchups. I get remembered at the launch of AoE4 with all the qualifier spots were done by ladder spot. It was the most boring thing to see people doing the dame 2 one trick strats because they cant qualify in another way and many players and viewers quittet early and never came back. Its fun to have the tournament maps in ladder, dont make the everyday AoE experience a stressful grind
What if in the ladder system is added a feature that Degenerates ELO Rating if you are not playing for X amount of hours? you lose 1 ELO for every X hours when you don't play...a condition can be added to check if the player has played in the last 24h and the this Degenerative feature activates only after 24-36 hours of inactivity. This will "force" the players to play in order not to lose the ELO... of course, it can happen that some players are not available for a longer period because of personal stuff, but it should be taken into consideration that a ladder qualification is announced with pretty much time ahead. It can be an idea.... just saying :)
If the cost of merch didnt require me to apply for a loan to pay for them I'd invest. $115 + expenses for a shirt to get to Australia. Yeah no thank you.
"9k Bucks is a lot of Money" Break it down to hours worked or pay per game they played and its nothing. And its worse for the players who tried but didnt get into. Thats why Masmorra in my eyes is very wrong about it(the qualifier system) incenting "going full time" and happy T90 spoke about the money situation. Compared to usual work, its horrible unless youre a streamer and can make some money from it. If you see this as a Player and do the math, going fulltime is not worth it if the organisation is like this. You will make more money working a 8/16. The way its organized is way too top heavy. And that is not good since AoE-Scene is already very much top heavy in Playerskill. It creates a loop that is not inviting for new player. Unless you can afford "wasting" time in regards to money, the AoE Scene is not good. Others E-Sports are further in this regard. Edited one Scentence for clarity.
Very true, especially when we have pro players in quite developed countries - obviously the money goes a lot further in countries with a lower cost of living
This is a wild mischaracterization of what I said. You basically took 2 separate statements I made during the Pod and combined them into 1, for whatever reason. I said *in general* having a system that gives a slight advantage to full-timers, could potentially be good for the community. I even emphasized "could" because I know how risky this could be if not well thought-through. Didn't even say this system was such a system. I *didn't* say 9k is enough to justify people going full-time, don't even know where you got that from. Having said that, for 99.9% of professional athletes, regardless of the sport, if you consider the amount of hours they sunk into their craft, which often started in their early childhood or teenage years, I'm pretty sure the "hourly-rate" would amount to something ridiculously small. There's no reason why AoE 2 should be different.
@@MasmorraAoE I didnt want to state "you said 9k is enough for you to full time". But i see where my mistake was, i said " its " but i meant "the system" with it not "the prize money". Thats my mistake and is because of language barrier and my brain being faster than my hands :D I edited it!. But for my understanding, you said " a system that and i quote you " gives a slight edge to fulltimers andisnt nececassirly a bad thing" and "you(the system/organizer) wants people to play more". And im saying: This not the case, it rather shows how bad the situation in AoE Esport is. Because in my opinion, it does the direct opposit. And that many players didnt play and wait for their last qulifier chance supports that. The other reason being, that compared the money is rather low in reagard to probability of success. Nothing against anyone specific, but a "Caster" makes more money from streaming the games than the person that tried to qualifiy but failed , because the current casters have the highest Viewership except Viper/Hera. Thats not attractive at all. Second part: You said somwhere close to the mid.- end that it is a lot of money(the 9k). Wich ofc it is as a single sum, but im saying if you look at the number of games you played and hours you spend until the time you really get that money, its not.And since if this would be a fulltime job, you have to look at it from Tournament to Tournament. Because thats the time that money needs to support your life. Its over 3 months "earned" with taxes its more like 6-7k, Thats why i mentioned that im happy that T90 picked the point , how the money is distributed, up. Because i agree that is a "big" Problem. And again, thats why im saying the System is NOT and incentive to go fulltime. Not even a "could".Because its really a low probability of someone whos not in the top players to get close to the money region. Like getting last qualifier last place is 1.5k. And most people there spend roughly 200 Games worth of time playing the game. Unless youre a streamer with some following, this is not good money. The second part you wrote i think is rather disingenious and you know it. If someone wants to consider streaming AoE their Job,this is part of it, because its part of their income calculation: Can i make it with this in comparison to my current lifestyle, opportunities and probabilities. Just look at Joarden as example. Very good player, very experienced but regarding the amount of hours he wouldve to put in to gain what he needs, its not worth it. Ofc not everybody has a child or gf/fiance, but if someone with that CV has to think about if its worth it, its certainly not incentive for newer players to go full time. Because his probability to get into big money, is way higher. The second problem with this argument is: those athletes you speak of do earn ridicoulus amounts of money compared to other jobs. Messi earns more than maybe some other Premier League player, even if hes very good too. But the Problem is: The market can sustain that. The market of AoE is not in that Situation. We want to grow, we do not have enough money to sustain that kind of payments. But we somehow want to pay the big guys big money, starving the newer talent. We mostly give the most money to the top players, invite them again and do systems like these, who are not welcoming to newer players in any way. LIke Daut said it hinself best: You have to compete without pay against somebody like him who gets paid to play the game and has experience. By all means, im not saying Viper or Hera dont deserve their money or that MBL is not putting in hours. But if we want to have a future with this, we need to be attractive to newer Players. We are currently feeding of the "old" guys and their popularity, other Streamers even confirmed that by saying certain Matchups get way more clicked than others. Wich is no surprise, we do not give enough reason for talent to come into the scene and invest the time, because its not worth it to either show/stream games of unpopular players or give them prizemoney, because its not enough of it in the ecosystem. Ive seen that happen to PUBG, were all the old guards are still the top, because the Qualifiers are very talent unfriendly(you have to beat players that have played as teams for years, with coaches etc, low amount of Spots to qualify) and popular Teams getting free invites, because if they werent there, nobody(hyperbly) would watch the games. Thats why the Game is slowly dying in EU and NA, Liquid pulling out, Ence, Heroic. And the money not being enouhg if you arent winning constantly. And the way we are currently gpoing, reminds of exactly that. A lot of Money for the top players, a loop that invites them over and over again ( the seeding based on torunaments, arbitrarily ranked) wich makes the entrance barrier even higher. We should foster new talent by giving more money to Qualifiers or creater smaller tournaments. Give them the spotlight, attract them to the scene. Show them theres something go gain if you spend time. But this system, does certainly not do that. And if you really read all of this, i want to say: i love the podcast and thanks. This is not meant in any bad way, im just concerned about the future of the scene, out of expecierence.
@@carlson8334 I think I might have found the misunderstanding, you say: "But for my understanding, you said " a system that and i quote you " gives a slight edge to fulltimers andisnt nececassirly a bad thing" and "you(the system/organizer) wants people to play more"." I want more full-timers in the scene *in general* because it leads to more content, ideally better content, ideally bigger reach and bigger audiences. This is totally separate from this particular ladder system.
Didnt sound like you were spoeaking "in general" to be honest, because you spoke as an answer directly after a critic regarding exactly that topic(the ladder system favoring fulltimers) . Its not far away to think that when you speak after that saying "its not necessarily bad favoring fulltimers a bit" that it could be connectet. And doesnt change that i think its wrong :D
yeah, the gender earning gap in Aoe2 is unacceptable. RB and Microsoft have been pouring money into male players' pockets for far too long. And they also don't seem to care about gender equality in the casting segment. All $40,000-dollar online events in 2022-2024 were hosted by male casters. And, look at the caster's lineup for RBW - all casters are men.
Jordan getting picked over Ornlu has to feel bloody awful for him. It's not like there wont be pro players there who might want to comment on games more NAC-style.
Aoe2 is just not a game that people easily get into just because of the complexity of the game and because it never had the big esport hype that for example sc2 had (which is also kinda dying). I don't think aoe will ever grow much bigger than it is now, it has already reached the people interested in it. It doesn't help that we mostly got "older" people that are very established in the scene, as growth comes mostly from young talent, be it caster or player. The aoe scene is slowly dying off as it is living off the hardcore fans that played the game when it came out and got back into it during voobly/de. I would wager that maybe at most 15% of watchers are completely new since the release of de.
You could just look at viewing figures to see that 75% of viewers actually started watching after DE came out. Aoe2 has been super lucky that big doners community kept it on life support until HD came out and it had people like t90, zeroempires, Viper and spirit of the law to keep it going until DE but until then very few tournaments got over 10k peak viewers. You actually do want long established names (preferably with decent competition) to grow any sport. While it has probably peaked, it's remarkably stayed at that peak for almost 3 years now. Dying is deffinatly a stretch, everything is technically dieing but might live another 30-50 years first 😂
@@donaldfarquarmy figure of 15% was people completely new to the age of empires franchise, be it playing or watching. But I guess I was too harsh there. Dying probably wasn't the right word, I agree the peak has been reached and there probably wont be any growth anymore.
I entirely disagree with Masmorra that giving advantages to full-timers is good. Going full-time should be an advantage in itself because you have more time to practise; why do we need to give additional advantages? It also reduces the novelty and opportunity for outsiders to make a run they talk about elsewhere. Moreover, I just don't believe that the limit on the number of full-time players is the number of people who want to do it. That's the dream job for a lot of people. The main limitation is the amount of money in AoE2 to sustain that many people making a full-time living from the game.
Fair point! However, in AoE 2 being a full-timer entails a lot more than just practicing. Have to stream; be entertaining while streaming (challenges; trolling; campaigns; whatever); make youtube content; probably edit it yourself; be active on socials; etc etc
@@MasmorraAoE Hmm. If I think about it, it's possible that I don't really consider AoE2 to have truly full-time players at all (and that is also probably in large part a result of the economics of the thing). I also follow SC2, and while there are player/streamers most of the very top players don't stream enough to make up a large portion of their income. For the most part it appears to me that those (few) able to make a good living purely from competitive play - winnings and sponsorships - prefer to do that. Someone like Harstem, who plays tournaments but I would guess derives most of his income from streaming/TH-cam etc., I think of as having transitioned away from being a full-time player even though he still makes a living from the game. Others like uThermal made an explicit switch from 'pro player' to 'content creator' as a clearly distinct job. In any case, though, it seems like it should be an advantage in terms of the amount of thought and practice devoted to the game over having to hold down a day job doing something unrelated. (There is the additional dynamic for instance for many of the Korean players of dealing with a larger English-speaking audience while they speak little or no English, but e.g. Serral has good English and huge name recognition but has preferred to stream only once in a blue moon) Is the argument that tournaments favouring full-timers is good because it facilitates fun non-competitive-play video content getting made? I guess that would be a way of supporting the scene. I still tend toward the position that as many people will get in on turning their hobby into their job (whether the competitive play or the other content-creation bits) as the economics will support, and probably a few more than that will try. I also think there's something agreeable about the amateur ethos but maybe that's too romantic of me.
@@klarthkoken1925 "Is the argument that tournaments favouring full-timers is good because it facilitates fun non-competitive-play video content getting made? I guess that would be a way of supporting the scene" That's sort of my thinking yeah. More full-timers, more content being made, more reach, hopefully more audience. But again your point is well-taken, being a full-timer should already put you at an advantage.
@@klarthkoken1925 I actually agree with you that aoe2 doesn't have full-time players, it's an interesting point to keep in mind. BTW I think that's ultimate proof that the scene isn't really that big yet. Good chunk of people who went full-time aoe2 are pro players sure, but they rely on content creation more than competition earnings. Viper in particular said it numerous times that competing in smaller tournaments only makes sense for him if he streams those and he doesn't mind getting knocked out of mid-tier or even somewhat high-tier tournaments because steaming is more profitable (well, he wasn't as direct, gotta read between the lines) - and that was when he was winning everything. Mr Yo iirc attested to something similar, that participation in LAN events can actually be monetary loss because it's time spent not streaming. Same for casters. Main draw of big events for many personalities is often the long term publicity, not necessarily direct earnings. And then we have as they're often called "semi-pro" players who aren't really streaming and they aren't getting top spots in tournaments... they just can't go full-time.
I'm surprised but shouldn't be. People following a 25 year old game are not receptive to something new with the ladder qualifier. This is the future of the space.
T-west and SotLshould have absolutely been there instead of Jordan and Nilli. I love them both, but neither are exactly "high risk". I could understand those two being there in general, but I think it kinda sucks they weren't invited to cast. It would be nice as well to have more of a female presence.
Bro, I love SoTL but casting isn't his thing nor his strength. On the rare occasions when he has joined someone to cocast, it's just because it's fun to have him on there and because he's very popular. But his game knowledge for high level play is pretty low. I really enjoy his vids and content but he is not a game caster.
@@legion2590 I think its a if you build it they will come type of thing. I think if T-West and SotL were invited they would spend the next few months working on that craft. I know live is different than videos, but they 100% have the game knowledge and they have done at least co-casting. More than anything I worry about the scene being too static, or too dependent on a a couple people. I'm not over here stomping my feet or anything, just saying it would have been nice.
@@Aaron_Ada You haven't watched SotL very carefully if you think that. He spoke on numerous occasions that he doesn't consider casting his preferred style of content and isn't interested in doing it. I watch all of his videos because they are made so well and his voice is amazing but no, he doesn't have game knowledge necessary for casting pro players it and it's apparent from his videos that he lacks the meta awareness. He's a different type of content creator. You can be sure that SotL would by no means dedicate several months working on casting craft if he was invited. He would simply decline because he doesn't want to do that. T-West is a different type of beast and he does have potential for casting, as he has been proving recently, but he's still too small for Red Bull. Maybe next year? Would be awesome. As for female presence, they were already overrepresented by Red Bull in the past, I don't understand why are you asking for even more. It's wrong to invite people just because of their gender while disregarding merit. When we get more prominent female figures in the scene, they will naturally be invited more, there shouldn't be anything more to that.
@@Progeusz- RE: Women. Maybe I missed something, but I think there was one female tertiary caster at the last RB?. Gabby from the player perspective might be kind of cool? StellerMeesh from the casting perspective? She has a solid SM following (25k on twitch, and casting on Titok). AGAIN, I am just saying it would be NICE. I'm not saying some great injustice or whatever has taken place.
@@Aaron_Ada I wouldn't call her tertiary caster, she was leading the B-stream even though there were bigger names than her uninvited and real thing showed that she wasn't prepared for the job and her casting partner had to salvage the situation multiple times. There was also that interviewer girl who knew nothing about the game whatsoever asking players awful question and wasting the chance to learn their insights but hey, she looked pretty. Then there are all the promotional graphics suggesting females are 50% of game's population. Female presence is definitely felt at Red Bull and it's more than in aoe2 scene normally, that's why I used the word "overrepresented". Before Red Bull there were countless tournaments where there wasn't a single mention of a woman in any shape or form and nobody batted an eye. That's simply the reality of competitive scene in gaming. Gabi and Guki are very skilled players and their efforts are commendable but they are still far away from tournament level. IIRC Guki reached her peak of #74 recently? Gabi wasn't ever in top100 afaik. Meanwhile there's like 50 male players who are stronger than them but never appeared at Red Bull either.
Thanks for the shoutout T90! Great podcast as always, but since I am at least one of the people who were the subject of the "not invited to RedBull casting discussion", I just wanted give my thoughts on it:
Broadly, I agree with most of what was said. It really stung that a retired Jordan and a mostly-retired Nili got invited to cast (and/or do desk analysis) at the biggest, most prestigious event in AoE2. I really work my butt off to put my name out there and improve my casting to the best of my ability, and it still feels like in so many cases there isn't much I can do to make that next step. Of course, I am very far from a perfect caster, and I can't really make an argument that I would do a better job than Nili or Jordan or anyone else - as the guys were saying, it's all subjective. I can't even make a viewership argument because I don't have *that* many viewer numbers in the grand scheme of things.
What I can do (and I at least attempt to do this) is to maximize everything I can that is within my control. Cover every event I can, even if it means waking up at 6 in the morning every day for a week. Look back at my own casting, seeing how I could have better described why something is happening or better communicate what is likely to happen. Take every opportunity I can to cast with the bigger content creators for their tournaments (and hopefully leave a good impression on both them and their communities). All of the bigger casters have been instrumental in giving me opportunities and helping me get my name out there - T90, Nili, Memb, GL, and even ZeroEmpires back in the day were all willing to take a chance with me when they really didn't have to. Lastly, I can just try to have the best understanding of the game I can, including the high level meta and decision-making done by the players, the actual ingame stats and unit/civ interactions, and my own analysis on ways the players can act in various situations.
I can't speak to any other "up and coming caster", but personally, I do this whole casting thing because I heckin love AoE2: talking about it, learning about it, educating people about it, and theoretically entertaining people with it. First and foremost, if I didn't enjoy that, I wouldn't be casting at all. I totally understand RedBull's perspective as to why they pick the people they do, and I'm sure everyone there will do a great job. This is just my perspective as someone who almost always finds themselves on the outside looking in on such events.
I'm personally not a fan of your casts, but i'm limited in time and didn't watch many games with you.
But, these words are perfect for this situation and it would be fair and interesting with you or some of the other bigger names.
Wish you all the best🙏
I’ve enjoyed your cocasts with Memb this past Warlords, I’ll make sure next time I have some time to watch AoE2 to check out your twitch and see if you’re casting as well. I like variety so I usually bounce between streams between games. Keep doing your thing, the scene needs people like you!
When i hear you cast a match or talk about the game you always leave me with a good vibe. Keep doing what you do dude and hope the opportunities will come with it. Like you said, you can only control what you can control. Especially love all your work with the campaigns, they have been a personal favourite of mine since the beginning.
Dude your casting has improved so much since I first saw your videos a year or two ago. Your confidence has improved and you have a much better "stage presence" now. If that makes sense 11. I really enjoy your casts and streams. After reading this comment I now know why you've improved so much - you're putting in the hours!
RedBull wants to create a certain vibe with their tournaments and you don't fit their idea of that. Let's be honest here - it's not about fairness to the Community that's their driving force behind their picks - mostly highlighted by the fact that casters like killerpigeon are chosen for aoe4 because it fits their brand much more than a more, let's say, analytical caster.
Guess I'm gonna have to do some more casting :D Now that I'm in Japan, the time zone is really rough a lot of the time.
I think it's important to remember as well that one of Yo's main opponents in the last 24 hours was Barles. Barles realistically had no chance of qualifying, but for several hours he was more or less the only real opponent Yo had until vinchester came online. In my opinion, the only reason Barles was queuing was to give Yo an opponent with enough elo that he could fairly make progress. Without Barles there, it's entirely possible that Yo gives up early, at which point Vinchester also never comes online, and you have crickets for the last few hours instead of all the hype that we saw. There's a real possibility of a big hole in this kind of qualifier at the end, and only the actions of the players kept it from happening this time.
Excellent observation!
Oof sad point
+1 to Masmorra's point that Survivalist is a great caster. He's well spoken, explains the why, and is knowledgeable enough since he's a top 200 player too.
what he cast?
he does not cast games, he plays and cast no-name tournaments.
His choice for not promoting himself.
Still would give him a shot for the technical abilities that were mentioned.
@@Dmitrii-q6p Survivalist has cast the 'B' stream for redbull legacy
100% agree with T90 on the play by play discussion. We as viewers get a lot more value out of having another person that really understands the game, even if they don't have the classic pbp skillset. Hearing about why something is happening is far more useful than hearing what is happening. I have eyes, so I can do the basics of that part myself.
some casters were doing an AMAZING job casting the ladder when memb/dave/t90 etc were all offline. I think I watched like 8 hours of ornlu and twest -- they are great.
Their viewership was probably much better exactly because it wasn't a classic qualifier. During classic qualifiers with fixed times for the big games you'll always have some of the main casters online, so smaller ones are less likely to get viewers. This not having set times meant that people just go with whichever caster is online and are more likely to go with a smaller one.
PLEASE give daut an honorary trophy, even if he doesn't qualify. Let the community show the love for him! ❤❤
I think Daut knows because the community let's him know.
I'm not sure though what he would think of a trophy that he doesn't get for a win. He might actually not like it? I can imagine so at least.
Daut has a real RBW trophy. Give honorary trophies to players who haven't won RBW.
What a disrespect to the lord - this sir doesnt need such a childish soft trophy without value, he want compete on the highest level and that means losing is a part of it.
I watched lots of Survivalist play games and pumped my ELO by at least 100 points just by listening to his explanations and guides. I was very surprised when I realized he's not one of the top five casters. Hopefully he'll go bigger! If you're reading this: THANKS SURVIVALIST!
There goes 70 minutes well spent, thanks as usual guys! Loving T90 as replacement, he's doing great! (though nobody could ever truly replace Viper)
I love the candidness and straightforward nature of the podcast! Saying things as is and not sugar coating.
Love the idea of making ladder meaningful enough to encourage player playing the games but not to the point how the qualification for this red bull event. And as T90 mentioned, learning the lessons and improving is the way to go than just throw away the approach altogether.
I’m not sure how many players are open to have the tournament maps on the ladder and practice publicly even if it’s to maintain the top 16, 32 or 64 ranking to play through qualifier. The advantage of someone who’s not on the top 8 is to secretly cook strategies with a select few team mates and surprise the top 8. Playing the tournament maps in the ladder where winning matters (to at least manage the top 32) can be hard without showing the hand.
Survivalist is very solid. I would like to see him cast more.
Survivalist is one of the best casters in Memb events. I always look forward to those sets
Great episode! I really enjoy t90's experience with the economy behind tournaments and streaming because some realistic views on the future of our game is just as important as hope for a bright future
Qualifying the Top 32/64 through the ladder, or and using it for seeding could be a really cool implementation for some tourneys
survivalist was a great shout
That reverse sweep from MBL was so awesome to watch, totally crazy! 39:00
Didn't have the brain space to either follow Age or the podcast that much... Listening to T90 & Nelson feels like coming home. :)
the mbl reveres sweep against hera is one of the top AOE moments ever.
close runner up is vipers Teuton archer play win on final match against liereyy.
It was definitely a cool qualifier - I wouldn’t want every tournament to do this but it’s cool to have some variety
Loved the episode! Some feedback about the new artstyle - I find it hard to read and understand and think the old modern/clean aesthetic was better. I also think the old thumbnails were more instantly readable throughout all the other videos in my feed. My two cents but maybe it's just something I have to get used to :)
I agree... I don't like the overlay. It doesn't speak royal/regal like they probably wanted. It's very distracting.
I agree with the thumbnail. Title / layout during the podcast is absolutely fine for me.
Traditional AoE font is the best font
Interesting new Art Style
Gangsta town center
I love these podcasts, no matter the co-host or invited, so thank you Masmora (set for spelling)
Besides Masmorra and t90, much love to:
Riley ❤
Ornlu ❤
Dave ❤
Fun format, pls keep it up!
Two of my favorites are Survivalist and Isaac from Cast of Empires. Both so unique and so fun to watch.
Great discussion as always!
I think having the ladder rank decide the qualifier seeding (like in Nations Cup, SBARRO) could have given the same benefits of playtesting a lot of maps without the same stakes. The standard qualifiers often have some of the most exciting games with a variety of players and strategies so I want them to remain, but I look forward to the AoE2 scene developing.
I hope we we will see more often tournament maps on the ladder. I really enjoyed that part.
"Cast of empires" is a pretty good caster in the style of "play by play"
I discovered him a while ago. Hes pretty unknown from what i know but his style is unique and im surprised hes not more popular tbh.
as a spectator honestly i loved this ladder qualifier, pretty much every aspect of it. I didn't even care about the mirror matches, just so refreshing to see top level games left right and center. I hope we get to see more of this in the future.
To me is kind of weird that they did not invite Pinch3. He has not been casting for few months, but he literally lives 2 hours from the castle. Even if he is not the biggest Spanish caster, he is big enough.
BTW, still waiting for Tatoh in the podcast :P
MBL played more games than Vinch on the RB ladder overall. Let's not act like if MBL hadn't been 5th or 6th he wouldn't have been playing dozens of games those last three days. Even Liereyy played a couple hundred so everyone was getting their games in. No one was able to play 80 games and qualify or something like that.
MbL played more games than the five players directly below him. He earned the ability to camp his ELO by starting earlier and playing more games. It's just like when people watch sports and they only care about what happened in the last 5 minutes. While other people were prioritizing other things and not taking the RBW ladder as seriously, MbL prioritized it, and he was rewarded for it. I don't see an issue with that.
Okay, here is my thoughts: to analyze it we need to draw plot who feeds points to. To understand how ladder was moving.
Secondly, many were playing ShenAiXie Cup.... and instead of 2-3 weeks they have to play only 1 week...
EW ladder is the reason for many upsets in ShenAiXie Cup...
btw Sebastian - is a monster to win and to grind into top3.
bringing smth like
> No one was able to play 80 games and qualify or something like that.
If you've missed, everyone played 200+ games...and every top10 300+ at least.
The trick was WHEN you've played and against who.
Sebastian were getting +5 +8 in his winning streak... (and Heart literally gifted him spot with -36 points).
While Larry was on streak against Hera & Yo with +13 +20 at each game.
small little detail - i like it when casters let me know when the window of damage for feudal army is over, and that they don't overhype the clear up of an army that we have spent so much time watching, because the caster already focuses on the next step, looking towards castle age timings etc
Yessss my favorite content!
Edit - I’d be curious to see hours watched statistics (though that’s probably not doable). I also assume total hours watched was higher but haven’t seen any data so far one way or the other.
This was a great episode congrats both(and of course the people behind the scenes), i felt like this was very fun for both of them, the last episode was also good, but maybe even if you known each other for years(and also doing "this" for many years), need a few hours to know how you coud do it very well together?!
I would have loved Survivalist as a caster!
Jordan and nili have paid their dues, have many who love them, and are entertaining and insightful. It is a massive benefit to the community that they have accepted the offer to cast. Please do not throw shade on them. They definitely both deserve this and will be better than many of the newer casters. Well Daniela would have been nice too.
Luckily Nili and MBL casting made the last hours really enjoyable - best stream experience I had in weeks :D
I'm so happy to hear Jordan will be involved. Such a legend.
On T90 just being able to step back for a few days and not think about content also has to do with his former Facebook contract. I wish more people in the community could get access to this monetary peace of mind to focus on themselves and their preferred content
Nili and Jordan are huge names of Aoe2 community. They were kind of important points of the last RWs. The insights and comment quality they can bring is huge.
I understand the issue and how many casters are investing big on their content, but let's understand that point first
Those 3 points also apply to all of the other casters they mentioned. And frankly the more active casters can almost certainly provide better insights than those who have been out for a bit.
@@LordBenji1287 are you sure they are as known? Same revelance in aoe2 hostory? The caster and tournament relevance of Nili? The experience in playing tier S tournaments of Jordan? The experience of Knowing how a player is feeling or mentally thinking in a though semifinal???
Hmmmm.... I don't think so.
@@bassegoder Jordan has been somewhat checked out for many years with erratic comebacks. He has technical ability but he's never been the most creative or analytical and strategizing player, he just executes really well. I'd argue there's like 20 players who would be able to provide similar or better insights than him and only 8 can participate in Red Bull as competitors so that leaves a dozen of other spots.
He's just more liked by people with influence and many of the viewers get blinded by his big smile.
Agree about Nili though, I don't think there needs to be any discussion about validity of his spot. He has unmatched experience as tournament organizer and has been one of the big casters for many years. His break wasn't even that long and he still kept up with the game to some degree (he smacked Hoang in EW format in May for example), he's more than competent enough to be there.
I really wish people like Ornlu, Survivalist or T-West were given a chance however... Sadly El Reinado is limited in scope compared to the past (but I'm very glad it's back regardless!).
LOVE
Purely speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jordan's paycheck is much lower than the other casters. Not suggesting that he isn't taking it seriously, but I can see this being more of a fun week away for him that the others, with much less pressure. Obviously if he casts an equal amount to the "big 4" then I'm probably wrong...
Also, Red Bull did bring in a new person in Ellie for the last LAN. I think she was more in a presenter role (same with DreamHack afterwards), but I'm not sure if she made a huge impact with the audience in the same way that Riley (or maybe Dash) has.
I think that even after being away for a year, Jordan is still probably the most popular non-player in the scene that they could have invited, and therefore the safest option. I can see a world where the organisers may have just reached out and offered to pay for his travel and upkeep for the tourney in return for some contribution.
It's pretty clear Red Bull was mostly looking at popularity of people they invite considering how they shoehorned an invite for Viper. In that regard, Jordan also makes sense (and it's hard to blame Red Bull).
As for Ellie... truth is, it's mostly because she's a woman. Inclusivity is popular these days and you can clearly see it in all the promotional graphics where Red Bull tries to represent females evenly with males even though there isn't a single female pro player in aoe2 (yet? there are some potential rising stars, wishing them best luck). There was a lot of better candidates than Ellie but she was the #1 popularity choice among girls. Survivalist had to do some hard carrying for her in the B-stream.
I didn't watch a single game of the EW ladder. maybe like 5mins here and there and even that is generous. No 1 game mattered, so didn't see the point in watching it. Followed it a little whenever someone puts out a video to discuss the situation and give an update. I might watch the qualifiers. When do they start?
The part when they talk about it being stressful, well I mean it should be stressful. this is the highest level with the biggest reward. No-one forced anyone, its just ladder at the end of the day and people choose to play, when they want, as long as they want. I do get the boring repeativness of the matchups and that not being fun, just constantly queueing and playing the same over and over, that will kill most peoples motivation for that length of time. But now imagine how Premier League players feel, or chess players.
Pros: having tourney maps on the ladder
Cons: everything else
The caster choice probably was a very hard one. To compare Nili and Jordan to someone like Survivalist/Daniela/Ornlu/T-West seems a bit off. I agree with Masmorra to introduce 1 new name which would be cool but at the end of the day how would you choose this person to make it fair to the others? If you invite T-West this would probably feel even more disappointing to Ornlu or Daniela. From this point I can absolutely understand why they went with 2 very well known and liked names in the community. In the case of Jordan it's fair to say that he "quit" AoE2, but Nili needed a break. To not consider him with everything that he did for AoE2 in the past would be egregious. He did so much work for the scene over the years... The one person I can think of that always gives the "smaller" names at big events a stage is Memb at his events. Through him I was actually introduced to many different casters and names like T-West, Moonfaller (although he quit), Survivalist. It would be much better to integrate these smaller casters in the non-lan big events rather than expect the smaller names at these huge LAN events. Until they reach a certain threshold of popularity and then they can get invited reasonably...
on the caster situation, I really liked what memb did on Warlords 3, such a huge variety of casters, some I didnt even know yet (im reletaviley new to the scene), but memb and warlords was the reason I am following so many more casters than before, like twest and ornly, in the end its variety, players and caster wise, I get though that with a tourney like RB places are limited, for players and casters, but my suggestion would be more participants on both sides, less or a more evenly split pricepool. 9k for qualifying and just having 8 players there suchs IMO. as for casters, yes accomodation etc. costs money, but im sure noone needs a hotel, hostels are fine i guess. I mean look at the first NAC, there were literally in Nilis apartment. just my 2 cents
Please don't forget spotify upload guys thank
Great podcast, t90 has been a great addition.
The only thing I'd say, and this isnt a criticism of redbull or anyone in the scene, it's purely from a business perspective. It's not redbulls job to grow the scene or give people opportunities. Redbulls job is to give maximum exposure to redbull for minimum investment.
The 'big 4' casters all generally have at least 1k viewers on an average casting stream, no one else comes close.
Same with players, Hera and Viper pull over double the viewers of Tatoh/Yo/Daut/Mbl both on their streams and in people who watch their tournament matches. Tatoh/Yo/Daut/Mbl then get over double the views of the players from 8th-17th in the world.
There is absolutely no business incentive for Redbull to expand the tournament or invite other casters.
We are generally spoiled in aoe2 that the biggest tournament hosts care about the game and are invested in it doing well.
There is an incentive for them to have bigger tournaments (also the cost of this in an online tournament is far lower) it increases the amount of countent for them, it gives new players a chance to shine and attract viewers, and they can give people they like, or contribute to the scene air time, especially in the earlier rounds.
In short if people want more players/casters at events like this they need to actually watch them. The amount of people I see moaning about how more players should be included but when players outiside the top 8/casters outside the big 4 (eng) stream stream like 100 people turn up to watch them baffles me.
Very true.
Red Bull could improve a lot of things for sure but their perspective is completely different from one of a simple viewer, a struggling content creator, a pro player and so on. AoE2 is just one of countless projects they participate in, it's not their main content.
We as a community should be grateful that Red Bull decided to invest into aoe2 at all (hopefully they're getting good results seeing how they keep coming back and hopefully they will listen to a lot of feedback if they will continue the support) while also trying to do what we can to appear more enticing to other sponsors - it's great that Microsoft sponsors most of the events and that Red Bull showed up as well but in the end that's just two sponsors, they could go away any time. It would be really beneficial if AoE 2 wasn't so reliant on just them. Other esports thrive because they have many different brands offering sponsorships.
Online activism is rampant but in the end what really matters are hard numbers. People have to watch the streams, the VODs, generate interest.
I was waiting for this podcast!!!
I thought the ladder was a great new addition. I would only add some advantage for the players who finished in positions 5-8 in the qualifiers.
Now someone like Yo starts from square one in the qualifiers and has got no benefit from finishing fifth
seedings, but there will be 2 weeks to get seedings
imho, all issues come from the fact this rbw only have 6 qualifier seats.... if all top 14 players from the ladder qualifies, (almost) everyone will be happy.
btw survivalist cast? HELL YEAH!
AoE IV only had 2 seats even lmao
@@Zepoz yeah heard about that, what a joke 11
Need everyone to start watching all the top 14 then. If double the amount of people watch Hera/Viper over Liereyy/Daut/Yo/mbl/tatoh and only half the people who watch them watch accm/Heart/vinch ect. Its diminishing returns for redbull.
This may sound counterproductive to making the ladder more active, but what if they used this format, but limited how many games each player can play in a day. Then the games would mean more, it would reward consistent play for the entire period available, and more people would have a chance to qualify.
why is t90 discrediting MBL’s efforts to qualify? he’s saying it’s like mbl didn’t play any games and got lucky that he could camp on the last days. correct me if im wrong but he had one of the most games played. he put in the work early whereas vinch put it in late. not a bad thing
Yeah, I really don't understand why he was harping on MbL multiple times when MbL played more than anyone in the top. Only DauT, Capoch and Andy played more games than MbL from top25. He absolutely deserved his spot, he worked super hard to build high ELO early and everybody knew that would be the optimal strategy, it's not his fault that other people put in less effort.
Liereyy played even less than MbL in last few days and less than half overall but somehow T90 didn't bring him up.
Liereyy is the best at EW and played smart, he deserves his spot. MbL is one of the best and played smarter than most while realizing how to approach the whole process strategically considering the limitations, he deserves his spot.
im glad this qualifier is over and i hope that was the last time they go with something like that. I almost lost complete interest on the game and the worst part is that there wasn't much else to watch, everyone was streaming EW. Having said that i do believe the actual tournament is gonna be great.
56:20 Masmorrah goes pikes; 56:50 T90 goes skirms. AOE teaching us in-real-life lessons that there are always counters.
Was considering teching into hussars, but don't like trash wars that much, so just queued up for a new game 😅
@@MasmorraAoE 1111, what a great response!
i think T90 should be a firmer part of the podcast in the future, even if Viper comes back
Not T90 saying Sebastian is good at pushing through “diversity” instead of “adversity” at 40:20 😂😂😂
is it weird that i actually miss the days of there not being qualifiers and everything just being considered part of the main event? nowadays i dont even watch qualifiers anymore *because* they arent the main event. for mid-level players like me it was also just cool to sign up for a tournament and being part of the main event, even if we would lose r1. nowadays you have things like Hidden Cup which is a very cool concept except the qualifiers dont have the Hidden aspect that makes it fun, nor even has all the maps from the map pool, so i just dont even bother watching the qualifiers of it and just wait for the main event to start...
btw, i also really miss Map Pack rms scripts with the entire pool being available within 1 map randomly picking one. Was so great just hosting lobbies for those back when we still had ranked lobbies.
Anyone know where you can buy the civ icon wall tapestry behind T90?
I'd love to have one.
Pretty sure its just custom made in some print shop
It was not mentioned that Nili is employed as a tournament organizer for Microsoft. So, he is not only getting paid as organizer, but also getting income from his channel both from the ladder and for the qualifiers and tournament. This income is taken away from those who cast full time. Presumably as the organizer he also had insight into choosing who would cast, which makes it feel worse.
Any chance the podcast might also be uploaded on Apple podcasts?
I believe its impossible to do a ladder qualifier that will be fair and entertaining at the same time. People will need to pick the best civs for the specific map and it will end up in max 2-3 civs played per map with lots of mirrors. U cant force random civ with 46 civilizations or it becomes pure RNG who qualifies due to lucky matchups. I get remembered at the launch of AoE4 with all the qualifier spots were done by ladder spot. It was the most boring thing to see people doing the dame 2 one trick strats because they cant qualify in another way and many players and viewers quittet early and never came back. Its fun to have the tournament maps in ladder, dont make the everyday AoE experience a stressful grind
So are the qualifiers for replacement or guaranteed 2 spots? I'm confused
For guaranteed spots.
8 players total.
2 invited (TaToH, VIper)
4 from ladder (Liereyy, Hera, Sebatian, MbL)
2 from last chance qualifier.
I'm with t90 though, I did not watch much of the ladder in comparison to a qualifier
What if in the ladder system is added a feature that Degenerates ELO Rating if you are not playing for X amount of hours?
you lose 1 ELO for every X hours when you don't play...a condition can be added to check if the player has played in the last 24h and the this Degenerative feature activates only after 24-36 hours of inactivity.
This will "force" the players to play in order not to lose the ELO...
of course, it can happen that some players are not available for a longer period because of personal stuff, but it should be taken into consideration that a ladder qualification is announced with pretty much time ahead.
It can be an idea.... just saying :)
If the cost of merch didnt require me to apply for a loan to pay for them I'd invest. $115 + expenses for a shirt to get to Australia. Yeah no thank you.
"9k Bucks is a lot of Money" Break it down to hours worked or pay per game they played and its nothing. And its worse for the players who tried but didnt get into. Thats why Masmorra in my eyes is very wrong about it(the qualifier system) incenting "going full time" and happy T90 spoke about the money situation. Compared to usual work, its horrible unless youre a streamer and can make some money from it. If you see this as a Player and do the math, going fulltime is not worth it if the organisation is like this. You will make more money working a 8/16. The way its organized is way too top heavy. And that is not good since AoE-Scene is already very much top heavy in Playerskill. It creates a loop that is not inviting for new player.
Unless you can afford "wasting" time in regards to money, the AoE Scene is not good. Others E-Sports are further in this regard.
Edited one Scentence for clarity.
Very true, especially when we have pro players in quite developed countries - obviously the money goes a lot further in countries with a lower cost of living
This is a wild mischaracterization of what I said.
You basically took 2 separate statements I made during the Pod and combined them into 1, for whatever reason.
I said *in general* having a system that gives a slight advantage to full-timers, could potentially be good for the community. I even emphasized "could" because I know how risky this could be if not well thought-through. Didn't even say this system was such a system.
I *didn't* say 9k is enough to justify people going full-time, don't even know where you got that from.
Having said that, for 99.9% of professional athletes, regardless of the sport, if you consider the amount of hours they sunk into their craft, which often started in their early childhood or teenage years, I'm pretty sure the "hourly-rate" would amount to something ridiculously small.
There's no reason why AoE 2 should be different.
@@MasmorraAoE
I didnt want to state "you said 9k is enough for you to full time". But i see where my mistake was, i said " its " but i meant "the system" with it not "the prize money". Thats my mistake and is because of language barrier and my brain being faster than my hands :D I edited it!.
But for my understanding, you said " a system that and i quote you " gives a slight edge to fulltimers andisnt nececassirly a bad thing" and "you(the system/organizer) wants people to play more". And im saying: This not the case, it rather shows how bad the situation in AoE Esport is. Because in my opinion, it does the direct opposit. And that many players didnt play and wait for their last qulifier chance supports that. The other reason being, that compared the money is rather low in reagard to probability of success. Nothing against anyone specific, but a "Caster" makes more money from streaming the games than the person that tried to qualifiy but failed , because the current casters have the highest Viewership except Viper/Hera. Thats not attractive at all.
Second part:
You said somwhere close to the mid.- end that it is a lot of money(the 9k). Wich ofc it is as a single sum, but im saying if you look at the number of games you played and hours you spend until the time you really get that money, its not.And since if this would be a fulltime job, you have to look at it from Tournament to Tournament. Because thats the time that money needs to support your life. Its over 3 months "earned" with taxes its more like 6-7k, Thats why i mentioned that im happy that T90 picked the point , how the money is distributed, up. Because i agree that is a "big" Problem.
And again, thats why im saying the System is NOT and incentive to go fulltime. Not even a "could".Because its really a low probability of someone whos not in the top players to get close to the money region. Like getting last qualifier last place is 1.5k. And most people there spend roughly 200 Games worth of time playing the game. Unless youre a streamer with some following, this is not good money.
The second part you wrote i think is rather disingenious and you know it. If someone wants to consider streaming AoE their Job,this is part of it, because its part of their income calculation: Can i make it with this in comparison to my current lifestyle, opportunities and probabilities. Just look at Joarden as example. Very good player, very experienced but regarding the amount of hours he wouldve to put in to gain what he needs, its not worth it. Ofc not everybody has a child or gf/fiance, but if someone with that CV has to think about if its worth it, its certainly not incentive for newer players to go full time. Because his probability to get into big money, is way higher.
The second problem with this argument is: those athletes you speak of do earn ridicoulus amounts of money compared to other jobs. Messi earns more than maybe some other Premier League player, even if hes very good too. But the Problem is: The market can sustain that.
The market of AoE is not in that Situation. We want to grow, we do not have enough money to sustain that kind of payments. But we somehow want to pay the big guys big money, starving the newer talent. We mostly give the most money to the top players, invite them again and do systems like these, who are not welcoming to newer players in any way. LIke Daut said it hinself best: You have to compete without pay against somebody like him who gets paid to play the game and has experience. By all means, im not saying Viper or Hera dont deserve their money or that MBL is not putting in hours. But if we want to have a future with this, we need to be attractive to newer Players. We are currently feeding of the "old" guys and their popularity, other Streamers even confirmed that by saying certain Matchups get way more clicked than others. Wich is no surprise, we do not give enough reason for talent to come into the scene and invest the time, because its not worth it to either show/stream games of unpopular players or give them prizemoney, because its not enough of it in the ecosystem.
Ive seen that happen to PUBG, were all the old guards are still the top, because the Qualifiers are very talent unfriendly(you have to beat players that have played as teams for years, with coaches etc, low amount of Spots to qualify) and popular Teams getting free invites, because if they werent there, nobody(hyperbly) would watch the games. Thats why the Game is slowly dying in EU and NA, Liquid pulling out, Ence, Heroic. And the money not being enouhg if you arent winning constantly.
And the way we are currently gpoing, reminds of exactly that. A lot of Money for the top players, a loop that invites them over and over again ( the seeding based on torunaments, arbitrarily ranked) wich makes the entrance barrier even higher.
We should foster new talent by giving more money to Qualifiers or creater smaller tournaments. Give them the spotlight, attract them to the scene. Show them theres something go gain if you spend time. But this system, does certainly not do that.
And if you really read all of this, i want to say: i love the podcast and thanks. This is not meant in any bad way, im just concerned about the future of the scene, out of expecierence.
@@carlson8334 I think I might have found the misunderstanding, you say:
"But for my understanding, you said " a system that and i quote you " gives a slight edge to fulltimers andisnt nececassirly a bad thing" and "you(the system/organizer) wants people to play more"."
I want more full-timers in the scene *in general* because it leads to more content, ideally better content, ideally bigger reach and bigger audiences.
This is totally separate from this particular ladder system.
Didnt sound like you were spoeaking "in general" to be honest, because you spoke as an answer directly after a critic regarding exactly that topic(the ladder system favoring fulltimers) . Its not far away to think that when you speak after that saying "its not necessarily bad favoring fulltimers a bit" that it could be connectet.
And doesnt change that i think its wrong :D
thought
Imagine if Redbull would invite the best 2 female aoe2 players for like a showmatch, wouldn't that bring a LOT of viewership?
yeah, the gender earning gap in Aoe2 is unacceptable. RB and Microsoft have been pouring money into male players' pockets for far too long. And they also don't seem to care about gender equality in the casting segment. All $40,000-dollar online events in 2022-2024 were hosted by male casters. And, look at the caster's lineup for RBW - all casters are men.
It’s a video game, we play because they’re fun and if you think youre good enough then you aim for prize pools. nothing to lose really.
Jordan getting picked over Ornlu has to feel bloody awful for him. It's not like there wont be pro players there who might want to comment on games more NAC-style.
dont like the new gothic letters - not very huskary
Aoe2 is just not a game that people easily get into just because of the complexity of the game and because it never had the big esport hype that for example sc2 had (which is also kinda dying).
I don't think aoe will ever grow much bigger than it is now, it has already reached the people interested in it. It doesn't help that we mostly got "older" people that are very established in the scene, as growth comes mostly from young talent, be it caster or player.
The aoe scene is slowly dying off as it is living off the hardcore fans that played the game when it came out and got back into it during voobly/de. I would wager that maybe at most 15% of watchers are completely new since the release of de.
You could just look at viewing figures to see that 75% of viewers actually started watching after DE came out.
Aoe2 has been super lucky that big doners community kept it on life support until HD came out and it had people like t90, zeroempires, Viper and spirit of the law to keep it going until DE but until then very few tournaments got over 10k peak viewers. You actually do want long established names (preferably with decent competition) to grow any sport.
While it has probably peaked, it's remarkably stayed at that peak for almost 3 years now. Dying is deffinatly a stretch, everything is technically dieing but might live another 30-50 years first 😂
@@donaldfarquarmy figure of 15% was people completely new to the age of empires franchise, be it playing or watching. But I guess I was too harsh there.
Dying probably wasn't the right word, I agree the peak has been reached and there probably wont be any growth anymore.
I entirely disagree with Masmorra that giving advantages to full-timers is good. Going full-time should be an advantage in itself because you have more time to practise; why do we need to give additional advantages? It also reduces the novelty and opportunity for outsiders to make a run they talk about elsewhere.
Moreover, I just don't believe that the limit on the number of full-time players is the number of people who want to do it. That's the dream job for a lot of people. The main limitation is the amount of money in AoE2 to sustain that many people making a full-time living from the game.
Fair point!
However, in AoE 2 being a full-timer entails a lot more than just practicing.
Have to stream; be entertaining while streaming (challenges; trolling; campaigns; whatever); make youtube content; probably edit it yourself; be active on socials; etc etc
@@MasmorraAoE Hmm. If I think about it, it's possible that I don't really consider AoE2 to have truly full-time players at all (and that is also probably in large part a result of the economics of the thing). I also follow SC2, and while there are player/streamers most of the very top players don't stream enough to make up a large portion of their income. For the most part it appears to me that those (few) able to make a good living purely from competitive play - winnings and sponsorships - prefer to do that. Someone like Harstem, who plays tournaments but I would guess derives most of his income from streaming/TH-cam etc., I think of as having transitioned away from being a full-time player even though he still makes a living from the game. Others like uThermal made an explicit switch from 'pro player' to 'content creator' as a clearly distinct job. In any case, though, it seems like it should be an advantage in terms of the amount of thought and practice devoted to the game over having to hold down a day job doing something unrelated.
(There is the additional dynamic for instance for many of the Korean players of dealing with a larger English-speaking audience while they speak little or no English, but e.g. Serral has good English and huge name recognition but has preferred to stream only once in a blue moon)
Is the argument that tournaments favouring full-timers is good because it facilitates fun non-competitive-play video content getting made? I guess that would be a way of supporting the scene. I still tend toward the position that as many people will get in on turning their hobby into their job (whether the competitive play or the other content-creation bits) as the economics will support, and probably a few more than that will try. I also think there's something agreeable about the amateur ethos but maybe that's too romantic of me.
@@klarthkoken1925 "Is the argument that tournaments favouring full-timers is good because it facilitates fun non-competitive-play video content getting made? I guess that would be a way of supporting the scene"
That's sort of my thinking yeah. More full-timers, more content being made, more reach, hopefully more audience.
But again your point is well-taken, being a full-timer should already put you at an advantage.
@@klarthkoken1925 I actually agree with you that aoe2 doesn't have full-time players, it's an interesting point to keep in mind. BTW I think that's ultimate proof that the scene isn't really that big yet.
Good chunk of people who went full-time aoe2 are pro players sure, but they rely on content creation more than competition earnings. Viper in particular said it numerous times that competing in smaller tournaments only makes sense for him if he streams those and he doesn't mind getting knocked out of mid-tier or even somewhat high-tier tournaments because steaming is more profitable (well, he wasn't as direct, gotta read between the lines) - and that was when he was winning everything. Mr Yo iirc attested to something similar, that participation in LAN events can actually be monetary loss because it's time spent not streaming. Same for casters. Main draw of big events for many personalities is often the long term publicity, not necessarily direct earnings.
And then we have as they're often called "semi-pro" players who aren't really streaming and they aren't getting top spots in tournaments... they just can't go full-time.
I'm surprised but shouldn't be. People following a 25 year old game are not receptive to something new with the ladder qualifier.
This is the future of the space.
Oh, they had 2 invited players and 2 invited no-caster to cast. I can't decide what the worst of the two is.
T-west and SotLshould have absolutely been there instead of Jordan and Nilli. I love them both, but neither are exactly "high risk". I could understand those two being there in general, but I think it kinda sucks they weren't invited to cast. It would be nice as well to have more of a female presence.
Bro, I love SoTL but casting isn't his thing nor his strength. On the rare occasions when he has joined someone to cocast, it's just because it's fun to have him on there and because he's very popular. But his game knowledge for high level play is pretty low. I really enjoy his vids and content but he is not a game caster.
@@legion2590 I think its a if you build it they will come type of thing. I think if T-West and SotL were invited they would spend the next few months working on that craft. I know live is different than videos, but they 100% have the game knowledge and they have done at least co-casting. More than anything I worry about the scene being too static, or too dependent on a a couple people. I'm not over here stomping my feet or anything, just saying it would have been nice.
@@Aaron_Ada You haven't watched SotL very carefully if you think that. He spoke on numerous occasions that he doesn't consider casting his preferred style of content and isn't interested in doing it. I watch all of his videos because they are made so well and his voice is amazing but no, he doesn't have game knowledge necessary for casting pro players it and it's apparent from his videos that he lacks the meta awareness. He's a different type of content creator.
You can be sure that SotL would by no means dedicate several months working on casting craft if he was invited. He would simply decline because he doesn't want to do that.
T-West is a different type of beast and he does have potential for casting, as he has been proving recently, but he's still too small for Red Bull. Maybe next year? Would be awesome.
As for female presence, they were already overrepresented by Red Bull in the past, I don't understand why are you asking for even more. It's wrong to invite people just because of their gender while disregarding merit. When we get more prominent female figures in the scene, they will naturally be invited more, there shouldn't be anything more to that.
@@Progeusz- RE: Women. Maybe I missed something, but I think there was one female tertiary caster at the last RB?. Gabby from the player perspective might be kind of cool? StellerMeesh from the casting perspective? She has a solid SM following (25k on twitch, and casting on Titok). AGAIN, I am just saying it would be NICE. I'm not saying some great injustice or whatever has taken place.
@@Aaron_Ada I wouldn't call her tertiary caster, she was leading the B-stream even though there were bigger names than her uninvited and real thing showed that she wasn't prepared for the job and her casting partner had to salvage the situation multiple times.
There was also that interviewer girl who knew nothing about the game whatsoever asking players awful question and wasting the chance to learn their insights but hey, she looked pretty.
Then there are all the promotional graphics suggesting females are 50% of game's population.
Female presence is definitely felt at Red Bull and it's more than in aoe2 scene normally, that's why I used the word "overrepresented". Before Red Bull there were countless tournaments where there wasn't a single mention of a woman in any shape or form and nobody batted an eye. That's simply the reality of competitive scene in gaming.
Gabi and Guki are very skilled players and their efforts are commendable but they are still far away from tournament level. IIRC Guki reached her peak of #74 recently? Gabi wasn't ever in top100 afaik. Meanwhile there's like 50 male players who are stronger than them but never appeared at Red Bull either.
who the f*ck is daniela?
Woman = Get what you want. In many areas of life atm.
Who the fuck is Riley Knight?
We all know Masmorra is a dave_aoe viewer. modHoyo