I just graduated and got my BFA with a concentration in photography. And the connections and conceptual skills you learn and you grow and grow and it so great being around artists and having critiques is great
The best advice I've heard a professor give to students so far was, "I wish I would have treated school like it was my job, and my job like school." I've taken both avenues (hard knocks for Marketing and academic for Fine Art) in life. Getting a degree is not enough. Applicants that have a strong GPA, a full CV, and Letters of Recommendation from key people will separate themselves from the pack. I believe that most employers nowadays want you to show them why you are the least risky candidate to hire rather than the most creative. Your love for what you do must be apparent, relevant, and packaged well.
I disagree with most comments below. I've been making a career as digital creative (and photographer) for many years already and decided to go to University at age 42 to get my bachelors in photography. I worried what I might learn BUT the added focus and peer collaboration is really worth it. I've learned a lot. I AM CHALLENGED!
Every job I applied for asked what my degree was and NEVER followed up if I lied or not lol. But totally agree Ted it's not essential per say and it's killing financially. But I photography can be learned for free just takes time and practice. Study or go to school for business and marketing. The only two perks I see to photo school is being around other creatives and two be in a structured organized environment that your forced to shoot through assignments. But like you said it comes to quality of teaching. I've had a teacher that made me hate photography and a year after he was fired the new teacher got me back into it.
Steve Bark Agreed and totally signing underneath this with my both hands and feet. Personally I'd go for law rather than business, but B&A is still better than photography degree in my opinion.
Steve Bark I agree... from the perspective of already being good at photography. I'm not going to lie that it grinds my gears when people who know NOTHING about photography go into it because they see it potentially being a lucrative business. I understand people want to make money. However, photography is an art and if you aren't doing it well for clients, but are still finding ways of getting them to pay a lot of money you shouldn't be doing it.
martinaee I agree with your comment. However, I teach photography at Sheffield University in the UK and I believe that you can teach anyone to use a camera but not everyone has it within themselves to be an artist. You don't have to be an artist to have a successful photography career but you do need to be able to run your business well. Many photographers who are great artists never succeed because they have no business or marketing acumen. The need for self promotion is also essential to be successful in this field. You can just be good at your craft and wait in hope that people will discover you.
I think we both agree with each other. Especially since what you describe is exactly what I am. I am a really good photographer, but am not where I want to be in terms of making money with it. I have very little business training and am not really good with being as aggressive as I need to be with marketing/getting my self out to meet people. I DEFINITELY agree you need marketing chops in photography as a business. I want to continue pursuing it as a business, but I can see why some prefer to keep it a hobby.
I studied Photojournalism at university for a term (semester). As i was quite interested in working for a newspaper/ magazine but i found out pretty quickly it was for me. I then decided to do Creative digital media with the focus in photography. The course was really good, you were taught a wide range of subjects and you could choose the subject you were interested in most. I completed my degree over a year ago and have found studio and event photography work. I am currently working on a new photobook this year showcasing my photography work over the past year. I would recommend doing a creative course you just have to do a lot of research and be very passionate about the area you want to go into.
You don't need a degree but it can certainly open the door to creative networks and jobs that you wouldn't normally have easy access to. I'm finishing my second year in photography and just the access to equipment is worth it alone (studios, darkroom, green screen studio, motion capture rigs, video editing suites etc). We collaborate with in house student illustrators, graphic designers, architects, fashion designers, stylists, media students, videographers and more. You get the idea. It's not just about the end, it's what you make use of to get to that end result and how you carry it forward.
My degrees are in international relations and history. I became passionate about photography while in college and even though my school offered a photography program, I chose to stick with my original plan. I'm glad I did. When I graduated I became a news photojournalist and my background in political science and history proved helpful not only in the understanding of the subject matter of my assignments, but it also equipped me with writing skills which have also proven beneficial.
In my late 20's, I got a degree in English Literature and in Philosophy (yes, I completed bot). In my early 40, I took a job in finance with a manufacturer if industrial photofinishing equipment. This gave me the opportunity to learn the physics and chemistry of photograph. My love of art history gave me a sense of composition and my love of documentary films supplied the "story telling and composition. Many technicians were eager to teach the other skills involve and a couple of mentors taught me protocols and practices. It took a long time but now, at age (almost) 70, I am still showing in the North east and doing non profit p[op up art galleries in blighted urban areas. be patient. You can always learn more.
Wow just as I find myself redundant in my current employment and was seriously going to uni for a degree in photography I came across your video. You have just saved me a lot of money and heartache. Thank you.
Great video! Shocking to think about the long term effects of a higher education in America. I have a question for you, it doesn't really have a concrete answer, but where does one draw the line between a hobbyist who likes photography and a quote-unquote Photographer? Is it the talent? The equipment? Does a bigger, fancier camera make you more of a professional? Is it the knowledge of many camera models, history, famous people, or the fact you can use your camera on manual mode with your eyes shut, in a matter of speaking? I've mentioned before that I come from the graphic design side of the art world and a lot of us dabble in taking pictures, but we don't call ourselves photographers, and I've come across snobbishness from photographers with degrees who treat others as "non-photographers", just people with cameras.
As a current photography major student, I will have to agree with Ted. You get what you put in. If you are charismatic and outgoing you should be able to connect and network without going to school. If you know what your passionate about already within photography, just do it. You definitely get opportunities in school but it's not a key to the kingdom so to speak.
Really glad you did this one. I graduated a few years ago and have recently been considering going back to do a Masters in photography. Mostly for the direction and peer reviews etc.
college is also a great life learning experience with the benefit of getting a degree that may potentially bring you fulfillment in your life. The crazy part is a lot of kids don't know what they want to do for their entire life. You see students that go from one major to the next. Get your general degree and try different things to figure out what you really want to do. YOU not parents friends peers etc. That is the most important, what YOU want... I think your photos will be proof in it self. And you have the University of TH-cam.
As usual Ted provides us with a thoughtful and interesting discourse on the question at hand. It seems to me that the US college system is no longer the guarantee of a career and lifestyle it perhaps once was, and probably hasnt been for a long time. If you weigh up the cost of a degree against the equipment, workshops books and travel you can undertake on your own to pursue your passion I think you would come out better "educated," probably more creative and almost certainly in less debt than you would if your attended college. I also think you will find more enthusiasm, more genuine experience and almost certainly more humility amongst guys like Ted and other genuine enthusiasts for photography than most of the overworked teachers of it who probably burned out years ago. Nowadays its not about the cookie cutter graduate coming out of college, its about the artisinal beer, or breadmaker or artist of photographer who is self taught and inspired by whoever it is that inspires them. Good luck and dont be afraid to back yourself.
I graduated from college with a degree in music as well! It was really cool to learn that about you and hear your take on this topic. I always enjoy what you post on your channel and look forward to each video you put up.
One good thing about going to photography school is in the time you are there in the first 3 months or so you will cover all the basics so you don't have to back track later on and try and learn some basic principles of photography. And of course as Ted said you are working on assignments all the time, are critiqued, and various students work together and share there ideas. In the day when I went to school tuition was cheap, but now it's crazy. Really crazy. If you want to get into the commercial side of photography such as portraiture, commercial, industrial, or photojournalism, school may help especially if you want to work as an in-house photographer or want to seek employment. If you want to own your own business, make sure you take some type of business courses. They may be more important than photography. Fine Art photography is difficult to make a living from. Contact Fine Art photographers who are already making a living selling their art before you decide to go to school. A college degree if it is at least a four year degree can give you opportunity to teach too. When I went to school most photography degrees were only two year associate degrees.
Lonnie, you are correct in adding that including business training being more important if going into business for yourself which a lot of photographers do today.
Nice thoughtful, measured response to a difficult question. Well done. PS - As an amateur photographer (at best), I enjoy your videos immensely. Thank you.
If i was going to get a degree today. I would get a degree in media studies rather than photogrpahy, because when i got my HND. I soon found out that the people who were interviewing me only had A levels. all you need is talent and experience.
If it's just a photography degree from any college, I'd say the answer is no. In my opinion it's a complete waste of time to do a photography degree somewhere in Upper Sticks or Lower Neck of the Woods. I'm not saying their teachers will be bad or not devoted to their students, but I don't think they will be able to offer their students more than they can achieve through extensive practice (i.e. shoot, make mistakes, draw conclusions, shoot again, make different mistakes etc.) and research on their own. If it's a well known centre, providing great teachers, opportunities for networking with people in the art world, publishing your work and one has the possibility to use all that good stuff, then it may be worth giving it a go. Still, there is no guarantee that getting a degree with a good art school is going to make anyone successful in the field of art. It makes for an easier start if it's a well respected University in a right place, but there is way more to this than just a degree. Just to clarify, I do not have a degree in photography (and never will have one, unless I have way too much time to spare and no idea what to do with it), my way of learning it, apart from being taught the exposure triangle and basics of image composition, was reading books on composition, painting, photography, sculpture, architecture and also going through tons of photo books. And shooting, making mistakes and shooting again, as often, as I could. Any subject available. Watching this podcast for the past 5 years was also something that gave me tremendous amount of food for thoughts and helped me many times along the way (thank you for that, Mr Forbes). True, I am not some sort of new Norman Parkinson or Avedon, but I hope I will never stop learning and will keep getting better. But, from the perspective of those 6 years I spent learning, I think if I were to choose a degree to help me along the way, my first choice would be a degree in law, probably.
The Art of Photography You are most welcome. For me AOP is the podcast to recommend to people who are interested in photography as a form of expression and are not interested in photography as a science of pixel peeping and gear comparison charts. This may not be a streamlined photography course, but I'm the kind of person who likes to learn things on their own. I just need some inspiration, some idea to follow up on and I'm good to go and try new things. AOP has been providing me with that for these past 5 years and I hope it will stay this way for the years to come.
David Meyer I started a formal photographic education (in the UK) and got good grades at a basic level (i'm in my 40's and enjoyed it very much) I didn't take it to a degree level but many of my fellow students have done..I left because the focus was on portraiture and fashion two disciplines I have little interest in but ofc are the major pro bread and butter however I would never say the time was wasted ...any chance to immerse yourself in photography and not worry about a 9-5 whilst constantly picking up ideas and tips will improve any one photography and also their love of the medium.
TheDocfonz I'm not saying nobody will benefit from doing photography course in a college. Depends on the college and the person in question. 15 years ago I chose to study history and back then I had very little interest in photography. If I had to start from scratch, was 15 years younger and had the time and money to spare, I would probably consider a degree from LCoF, more for the people and networking opportunities though than for the degree itself. Although if I could advise that 15 years younger me, I would still suggest a degree in law. Luckily, I'm too old to care about pieces of paper. This is not something that would bring me more business, so from the business point of view I can't see it as a good investment. From the passion point of view, I agree that any experience of being able to indulge in your passion is great and I'm totally envious of people who can afford that sort of indulgence. I wasn't able to do that sort of thing and I had to do my 9-5 most of the time until 2014, doing photography on top of that since 2009. It's exhausting and there still is a price to pay for that. For me going to college to study photography simply wasn't an option and I didn't mind that because I like learning on my own. Even if it's difficult to find the time and sometimes energy to do that.
David Meyer I just think any qualified photography course will help any prospective tog it onl;y starts happening once you start to work with other like minded creative ppl.
The myths surrounding mastering of skills rage on. The 10,000 hour rule has been called into question, and with additional scrutiny it was found that it did not account for individuals that defied the odds (3yrs instead of ten to reach mastery). What was left out of the study was innate talent. School could raise the level of your ability and open doors for jobs but is not X factor for your success. Ansel Adams dyslexia translated in his ability to break apart the status quo of the popular understanding of photography of his day. How’s that factored in. Photography is more science than anything else. Pretty images are the result of bringing art to the mastery of machines. Photography(the science)is influenced by art. If your an artist you may do well in photography and “mastery” may come more quickly.
It is a sad state of affairs in the arts community when they are more interested in whether or not you have a certificate of membership in the college club than if you have any actual talent or a fresh perspective.
Hey Ted, My experience mirrors yours very closely. My qualifications are not much to do with anything arts related and I also went onto teach (as an adjunct) and the only time I have ever been asked to prove I do actually have the qualifications I claim, was at my university jobs. The big deal today seems to be that any dumb schmuck can call themselves a "Photographer" and even if they do produce good work (very few do and I am certainly not consistent in my own work either), the opportunities to make a living from it are close to zero. "Get a day job that gives you the freedom to pursue your personal preferences" is perhaps the best advice I can give myself. The days of romantic (read 'poor') of doing your art in an artists garret in Paris are a century or more out of date. You need health insurance and something to provide the yearly camera body upgrades, after all!
A photography degree is absurd. I have friends with fine art degrees. They actually thought that a fine art degree would guarantee them a life in arts. They were really surprised to find they would have to bag groceries after graduation. They were really surprised to find out that in the 21st century, "artist" isn't really a job description. Degrees in fine arts, photography, fashion, music, you name it... are not golden tickets to blessed lives where you get paid to be a creative special snowflake. Unless you're already a wealthy individual who will never *need* to work to pay bills, you should get a proper degree, which photography is not. If you want to do photography, just grab a camera and do it. If you're getting a degree, get one which means anything in the job market, like engineering, sciences, law... Then, in the very unlikely chance you're not discovered as the monumentally talented photographer that I'm sure you are, you can get a real job. Yes, it has the inconvenience of having to do actual work, but it will save you the hassle of having to work multiple shit jobs to keep afloat, enabling you to actually do photography in your spare time. Nothing stops you from trying to become a full time photographer later, when you're able to stay above the poverty line without the help of your parents.
I'm from a country where education is free, (which is nice) but we then have 2 systems and photography is in the system build as an apprenticeship, it takes 3,5-4 years and you switch between school and working for a pro photographer. I think this way is AWESOME expect that the photographer has to pay a salary which is deffined by goverment and that makes it hard to get into these kind of educations as many photographers can't afford or get approved to have students.. But hey if you don't try you go no where :) Thanks for this video I needed that.. I just want to learn and I'll get there someday, life is full of bended roads and u-turns, but if you don't go through it you wouldn't be the person you are today :) Subbed, very inspiring content you are producing Ted :) Greetings from the cold north, Denmark and from a "full steam ahead aspiring 23 year old" photographer.
Rather than pay for an expensive education what about joining a camera club? Ticks all the boxes for me as i can fit my "education" around other commitments and i can draw on the huge amount of experience of my peers. Whats more its a friendly social environment too. Only costs me £40 a year.
Ted, this is an extremly interesting topic! My opinion is that by far the best thing about making a degree is that you are surrounded daily by people that are getting experts themselves. So you have the possibility for exchange of knowledge, criticism, opinion and so on all the time!! Pretty much everything else you can teach yourself, if you are aware, that 95% of internet tutorials and common books about photography you get in every bookstore only get you to a certain point. You really need to dig deeper, on to the scientific level (as they do at the university). This information is far more hard to find. Unfortunately the "noise" of tutorials teaching basically the same thing is very high. Also one important thing is the access to highend equipment you get for free at the university like Nikon scanners for example. As long as you are willing to work hard and bring some talent better go your own way in photography and study something that is a sure money maker and possibly teach you economy.
I got my BA (hons) in photography last summer, and I loved it! I'm going back to London in a month for the next years end of year show. But, i'm from the UK, where the student loans, whilst still not ideal. Are about a billion times better than they are in the States, especially for "liberal arts degrees". And just from a perspective of guest speakers, which wasn't a reason i joined my university, but once i was there they were seriously good and an added bonus. We had some absolutely unbelievable guests who came to do lectures. Lukas Birk (ch-ch-check him out, he's crazy good) who was an ex-student from my university. Simon Roberts, Edmund Clarke, Zed Nelson, Kurt Tong, Perou, Laura Pannack, Tim Flach, and loads more..
@Higher Frequency It was a three year degree, originally I joined on a two year foundation, but I always had the intention on taking the third year.. As it turns out, I should have joined on the three year from the start.. There were a few semesters which were harder than the full degree. For one semester in my second year, we had three practical units, when the BA had just two and one theory.
many say that it's more important to get a degree in business as you can use that for any career and anyways a pro photographer will tell you that only 10-20% off their time is spent taking pix and the other 80-90% off their time is spent on the business of photography life marketing, clients calling, employees, products, networking, website, etc, etc. also the avg pay for a photographer in the USA is only around $ 30-50k per year which is not very much at all especially if you spent 4 years and $50-80k+ for a degree. your time would be better spent doing an internship with a pro or networking with other photographers to get more experience and contacts in the industry.
I advise against getting degrees in MOST arts and humanities, and instead use the money you save on the programs, put it to buy some gear--just enough to get your feet wet; nothing fancy; and some books on the subject--and use the rest to establish a nestegg (like investing) for yourself so you can eventually pursue your own work without having to make compromises or suffering in pursuit of your own 'vision'. Let me be clear: I wish I had photography classes available in my high school (when I first started shooting) and/or media classes in my old junior college, just to take them; and art school sounds like a playground for young adults that would be fun as hell to attend. (But everyone I know who's gone through these programs, regardless of the quality of their work, is struggling to do things that like pay the rent, and often I believe their work is suffering for it.) But being self-taught, I've nonetheless been employed in various aspects of digital media--television and video, predominantly--managed to land myself a gig as an assistant to one of the best photographers in town, and am becoming known as for my work, just owing to how prolific I am. (I shoot a lot.) I study a lot; and now I have people, some who've been doing this longer than I, asking for my input and advice. (I was a chef before I devoted myself to video/media and photography, and worked my way, without a culinary degree, up through restaurants and positions just by working at it. Ref. Charlie Trotter.) I am still learning. I don't call myself a 'photographer'. Furthermore, when it comes to the subjectivity of 'art'--and I don't even care about that word--what I've seen emerging from these programs is a 'haute dogma' that, in its desire to be exclusive or above the fray/common man--which is limiting as well as dishonest. A lot of stylized nonsense under the pretense of 'expertise' or 'experience' that most likely will crush the creative spirit that drives 'art' and exploring in the first place. That, in the end, is what it should be. Fun. Meaningful if you can make it so; but the kind of 'work' that you enjoy doing, and yields results you hopefully are happy with. In trying to become a 'pro'--after you've spent all that money getting a degree-- you're competing against MWACs and iphones, in a market with a surge of graduates as well as formerly established photographers who've been recently laid off from previous employers, and people who typically get their positions through sycophancy more than anything else. So you mine as well have fun--in a devoted, disciplined sense--and use the money you'd spend on tuition to buy yourself the following: An old-fashioned SLR with manual controls. Chemicals and a developing tank for developing the negative cost less than $100 from B&H. (I get my color developed at Walgreens.) A good film scanner; and Epson scanner preferably. The V500 cost less than $200. A couple of 'how to' books, and a couple of photography books from guys whose work you like. If there's no one's book who you'd be willing to spend $40 to $65 on, then you probably shouldn't be shooting. All these together will cost you less than one semester at art school. Take the rest of the money you save and travel somewhere, shoot, and see what comes out. (PS I could be wrong. But I haven't had to shoot a single wedding or 'society event' to pay the bills or my college loans.)
Get a degree? Absolutely. Get one in photography? I would say no. I did a BA in photography and to be honest, I gained nothing from it. After my course I didn't have access to the same equipment to keep building my portfolio and my course didn't really give me the opportunity to make great connections either. Places that need photographers need people with experience and a BA in photography only says you know how to use a camera, it doesn't show how experienced you are in a given field. I would advise a degree in something more stable then if you still wanted education in photography or at least a piece of paper to say you did, go on to do an MA.
If you just want to do one thing like weddings or some other type of money maker photography gig then you do not need a degree. If you really want to learn all aspects of photography because you love photography from a to z then I highly recommend going to school. You learn so much, and you have access to equipment you probably can't afford.
Agreed - a college degree is great for getting a job - in a college....everywhere else, not so much - I also studied jazz music in college but left before I got the degree - nobody I ever auditioned for or played with ever asked to see some paper before plugging in so it seemed time better spent ( and cheaper ) to actually play ( and make a bit of money while doing so ) rather than take on debt...and I learned a LOT more in a much shorter time playing than I did in class...
David Rothschild I agree at the end of the day they are trying to make money but there are a lot of great instructors out there that are willing to teach their students as much as they possibly can so i do believe it is a good choice provided you have good instruction at the university or college you go to
Personally I feel there is no such thing as teaching, only learning. I went to school for 6 years was in student loan debt for 10 after graduation and I would say 90% of what I learned I don't use so it's a poor allocation of money in some cases.
jeremy higgins Also there are plenty of wonderful photographers who are not affiliated with a University who are willing to share their time. Local darkrooms and classes come to mind.
If you're planning on going to school in the US don't do it. But consider going up to Canada, especially Montreal. Fees are much less in Canada, and Concordia University in Montreal is a well regarded school with a good photo program. Having said that I think that if you'll be studying photography at the University level, you go there for 'artistic development' and nothing else. Artistic development includes technique as well, but mostly it's based on the conceptual level. If you want to grow in a conceptual way, then go to University in arts, but if you want to go for technical learning, you're better off on Lynda.com or a technical school. So a photo degree if worth pursuing depending on what you want, technique (not worth pursuing) or artistic development (worth pursuing). And consider going to Canada, I'm sure that even with the cost of an apartment it'll be much less than int eh US.
Great... Good perspective and the decision to take up a degree is very subjective and personal. I had also posted a video on this topic a week ago. Can I get a feed back on the same from you?
It's simple if you want a degree get one if not don't it's not key in getting into photography but I can defiantly help one of my personal tutors at my uni was last years hassleblad grand master for product photography and he's been great in helping me get too a high quality level I work quickly and get some great work experience under my belt
I never went to University because Teachers in college put me off even going for a job in the arts, "its unrealistic".. sigh... anyway now I do have a career in photography however, I think if I could go back to do it I would. Its taken me longer to get to to where I currently am and I have seen others more advanced in their career because they made important connections along the way. Its a tricky one.
James Tarry But are you in a hurry? Also, others are not you, their path is not yours. You made your choices in the past and managed to have a career in photography anyway, so I'd say it's an achievement. Experience you've gained through not doing arts degree may as well be what makes you the photographer you are today.
David Meyer hi David, I never stated that my advice/experience was right for someone else. Am I in a hurry? Maybe, now yes, age is catching up and I personally missed out on 10-15 years of photography and would most likely be in a better position now IF I had made different choices. I'm not saying it's the right way for everyone but it def worth really thinking about
James Tarry I've been doing quite a few things during my student years and I was planning a totally different career path (publishing, that was the specialization of my studies). I had passion for writing and literature and several hobbies to do in my spare time. I was interested in visual arts, especially painting, but photography didn't exist as an option nor was it playing any significant role in my life back then. Would I be a better photographer if back in 2000 when they told me what exposure triangle is, I decided to pursue it as a career? Maybe yes. Maybe not. The curious thing is that all those things I did, either as a hobby or to pay the bills, all those things that had nothing to do with photography, seem to find their way into my photography and business now. Those things gave me skills I use, they gave me inspiration and seem to influence my photography today. So, would I tell my younger self to do things in a different way? Sure I would (not that my younger self would listen). Would I tell my younger self to grab that Zenit EM back in 2000 and start shooting like crazy? No. I simply think that skills we gain through things other than photography have value as well and find their way to who we are as photographers and I believe it's better to focus on future goals and present needs than to look back and think "what if?". Then again, I'm a historian and historians are not allowed to look back and ask "what if?" They are only allowed to look back and analyze the facts :)
James Tarry with the advent of the internet many awesomwe photographers are overwhelmed by the avalanche of utter rubbish spewed forth by the intwernet the key is to rise above it and be notice3ed
David Meyer I totally agree with you that the things that we have done can be a massive influence on how we work/shoot now.........and in fact this year probably would never had been as successful as it has been if I hadnt have made a massive unrelated photography choice last year. Would going to Uni have made me a better photographer? I'm not too sure. But I do know for a fact that most of my contemporaries are shooting the kind of gigs at the level I would like to be at because they went to Uni and got the connections-not because they are necessarily better, but because they were introduced and around the right people. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and if I (personally) could tell younger self to not listen to the awful teachers and their bitter advice and to follow my dream I would-although you are right, I probably wouldnt have listened either haha
I pretty much told myself if I don't get into a top art school there is no point and lucky I got into 1 of 2 that are very well respected with lots of industry relevance here in London. I have a friend who went way out of his major city to study it in the middle of nowhere and it really did not open the doors he thought it would.
'Success' has different meanings to different people in fine art. You CAN be successful at becoming a popular artist without college degree although better known galleries nowadays seem to expect masters degree. On the other hand, to be a GOOD artist, you need proper feed backs from dedicated people. There are countless number hobbists who love cameras and enjoy taking photos but chances are not many of them are capable of give consdtuctive criticism. My point is, unless pretty photos of sunset and naked ladies are all there is to your ambition, you will have hard time growing as an artist by yourself. Plus, contemporary art is no longer something you can just figure out on your own. You better undestand where you are standing amongst other desperate young artists in order to convince galleries why you matter.
Duck Swarm The bottom like is that I find it strange people focus on 'bang for the buck' when it comes to art education. I can honestly say NO art education in america is worth THAT much money. But if you are serious about LEARNING art, there is really no other option.
NO! Don't. You will learn many things about yourself, but it will hold no weight when it comes to getting a job in the industry. Go for something more desirable and learn photography on the side. Great video idea!
Riya Gill i should probably said "in demand" any job that pays well enough for your need and there is a market for. Maybe finance or engineering for starters?
I can tell you the answer is no before even watching the video. I got a language degree and let me tell you experience is way more valuable than a degree. Just get a BS and then you can get good in photography or anything else in the side.
I just grad and received a diploma from photography program. I am planning to take Bachelor Degree but I need you to recommend which university does offer bachelor and not only focused on photography.
I'm 56 years old, semi retired and seriously thinking of doing a photography degree. I'm sure I'll get more use out of it than my law degree although I loved being a student. But I think I'm looking for something different than someone much younger, my degree would be for me and not for a career.
No. In my opinion, Arts degrees are not worth the money. I have a degree in music from a prestigious Conservatory that I regret wasting my money on. The experience was great, but I could have achieved the same level of success without the fancy piece of paper that's currently hanging in my office.
I am a grade 10 student and am very much intersted in photography what should i do to become the a good photographer and can complete all the course on photography sir plze help me to find and acehive my aim
Depends on your situation and where you live. In the US a lot of places have Early College programs. If you're really passionate about it then you could go there. But if you're interested in Photography you'd be better off going to an arts-focused high school.
Here is another thought. I served in the Air Force and the Army. If there is something that you are interested in to where you want to make a career out of it, they have a school for it. You don't even have to be active duty, you can be National Guard or Reserve. Some states have programs (like Massachusetts, which I used) where if you are in their National Guard, you can go to any state school tuition free. When I was active duty, I was even able to go to school at night, and the classes were paid for by the military. So if you decide you want to be a photographer, and you are okay with dedicating the same amount of time to the military as you would with school you can learn the trade in the military and get practical experience. If you join the Air Force and are willing to work for it, you can get a two year degree from the Community College of the Air Force by the end of your four year enlistment. You then switch over to the National Guard or Reserves so you have a modest source of income, and you can use the GI Bill to go to any school you want, where the VA will pay for it, plus you will get a stipend to live on. I am not a recruiter, and I am no longer in the military. So I receive no benefit in giving this advice. But if you are interested in becoming a photographer with practical experience right out the gate, and your tuition covered, it is something you should at least consider. I am honestly considering joining the Reserves again, just so I can request that they send me to school to become a photographer. (Nice thing about the National Guard and Reserves is you can change your career field every four years if you go about it right, depending on where you serve and how willing the command is to work with you.)
No, god, please no. One of the most worthless degrees around. I have a friend that I discovered is now a "professor" teaching photography at a major art school. I can't sleep at night knowing kids are being charged a hundred thousand or so to get a degree from him. He was no genius at using a camera or anything, he got a camera from his car salesman daddy, started taking pictures for fun, then decided to make a career out of it when he couldn't do anything else. I've seen his pictures over time, and while you want to be nice to the guy, I don't want to tell him he's a hack who does nothing special. Art is honestly something some people have and some people don't. I know a kid who is special ed who draws really damn well. If he told me he had a PhD. in art, I'd believe him, but he's 16, lol. He has absolutely ZERO reason to go to college to pursue a degree in art, unless it's architecture or something, if he can handle it. What he does is a skill. Photography is not art. There probably are some guys who take amazing pictures, but it's probably rare and maybe not even marketable.
I just graduated and got my BFA with a concentration in photography. And the connections and conceptual skills you learn and you grow and grow and it so great being around artists and having critiques is great
Joe Saunders BFA's of the world unite! What school?
its the degree that business want now! and Montserrat College of Art and fantastic small school with an amazing reach.
The best advice I've heard a professor give to students so far was, "I wish I would have treated school like it was my job, and my job like school." I've taken both avenues (hard knocks for Marketing and academic for Fine Art) in life. Getting a degree is not enough. Applicants that have a strong GPA, a full CV, and Letters of Recommendation from key people will separate themselves from the pack. I believe that most employers nowadays want you to show them why you are the least risky candidate to hire rather than the most creative. Your love for what you do must be apparent, relevant, and packaged well.
I disagree with most comments below. I've been making a career as digital creative (and photographer) for many years already and decided to go to University at age 42 to get my bachelors in photography. I worried what I might learn BUT the added focus and peer collaboration is really worth it. I've learned a lot. I AM CHALLENGED!
Every job I applied for asked what my degree was and NEVER followed up if I lied or not lol. But totally agree Ted it's not essential per say and it's killing financially. But I photography can be learned for free just takes time and practice. Study or go to school for business and marketing. The only two perks I see to photo school is being around other creatives and two be in a structured organized environment that your forced to shoot through assignments. But like you said it comes to quality of teaching. I've had a teacher that made me hate photography and a year after he was fired the new teacher got me back into it.
My degree is in TV and film with a minor in business
A business degree is much more useful in being a successful photographer these days.
Steve Bark Agreed and totally signing underneath this with my both hands and feet. Personally I'd go for law rather than business, but B&A is still better than photography degree in my opinion.
Steve Bark I agree... from the perspective of already being good at photography. I'm not going to lie that it grinds my gears when people who know NOTHING about photography go into it because they see it potentially being a lucrative business. I understand people want to make money. However, photography is an art and if you aren't doing it well for clients, but are still finding ways of getting them to pay a lot of money you shouldn't be doing it.
martinaee I agree with your comment. However, I teach photography at Sheffield University in the UK and I believe that you can teach anyone to use a camera but not everyone has it within themselves to be an artist. You don't have to be an artist to have a successful photography career but you do need to be able to run your business well. Many photographers who are great artists never succeed because they have no business or marketing acumen. The need for self promotion is also essential to be successful in this field. You can just be good at your craft and wait in hope that people will discover you.
I think we both agree with each other. Especially since what you describe is exactly what I am. I am a really good photographer, but am not where I want to be in terms of making money with it. I have very little business training and am not really good with being as aggressive as I need to be with marketing/getting my self out to meet people. I DEFINITELY agree you need marketing chops in photography as a business. I want to continue pursuing it as a business, but I can see why some prefer to keep it a hobby.
Only if you want to join an over saturated market
I studied Photojournalism at university for a term (semester). As i was quite interested in working for a newspaper/ magazine but i found out pretty quickly it was for me. I then decided to do Creative digital media with the focus in photography. The course was really good, you were taught a wide range of subjects and you could choose the subject you were interested in most. I completed my degree over a year ago and have found studio and event photography work. I am currently working on a new photobook this year showcasing my photography work over the past year. I would recommend doing a creative course you just have to do a lot of research and be very passionate about the area you want to go into.
You don't need a degree but it can certainly open the door to creative networks and jobs that you wouldn't normally have easy access to. I'm finishing my second year in photography and just the access to equipment is worth it alone (studios, darkroom, green screen studio, motion capture rigs, video editing suites etc). We collaborate with in house student illustrators, graphic designers, architects, fashion designers, stylists, media students, videographers and more. You get the idea. It's not just about the end, it's what you make use of to get to that end result and how you carry it forward.
Which university?
^which uni
My degrees are in international relations and history. I became passionate about photography while in college and even though my school offered a photography program, I chose to stick with my original plan. I'm glad I did. When I graduated I became a news photojournalist and my background in political science and history proved helpful not only in the understanding of the subject matter of my assignments, but it also equipped me with writing skills which have also proven beneficial.
In my late 20's, I got a degree in English Literature and in Philosophy (yes, I completed bot). In my early 40, I took a job in finance with a manufacturer if industrial photofinishing equipment. This gave me the opportunity to learn the physics and chemistry of photograph. My love of art history gave me a sense of composition and my love of documentary films supplied the "story telling and composition. Many technicians were eager to teach the other skills involve and a couple of mentors taught me protocols and practices. It took a long time but now, at age (almost) 70, I am still showing in the North east and doing non profit p[op up art galleries in blighted urban areas. be patient. You can always learn more.
Wow just as I find myself redundant in my current employment and was seriously going to uni for a degree in photography I came across your video. You have just saved me a lot of money and heartache. Thank you.
Great video! Shocking to think about the long term effects of a higher education in America. I have a question for you, it doesn't really have a concrete answer, but where does one draw the line between a hobbyist who likes photography and a quote-unquote Photographer? Is it the talent? The equipment? Does a bigger, fancier camera make you more of a professional? Is it the knowledge of many camera models, history, famous people, or the fact you can use your camera on manual mode with your eyes shut, in a matter of speaking? I've mentioned before that I come from the graphic design side of the art world and a lot of us dabble in taking pictures, but we don't call ourselves photographers, and I've come across snobbishness from photographers with degrees who treat others as "non-photographers", just people with cameras.
As a current photography major student, I will have to agree with Ted. You get what you put in. If you are charismatic and outgoing you should be able to connect and network without going to school. If you know what your passionate about already within photography, just do it. You definitely get opportunities in school but it's not a key to the kingdom so to speak.
Really glad you did this one. I graduated a few years ago and have recently been considering going back to do a Masters in photography. Mostly for the direction and peer reviews etc.
college is also a great life learning experience with the benefit of getting a degree that may potentially bring you fulfillment in your life. The crazy part is a lot of kids don't know what they want to do for their entire life. You see students that go from one major to the next. Get your general degree and try different things to figure out what you really want to do. YOU not parents friends peers etc. That is the most important, what YOU want... I think your photos will be proof in it self. And you have the University of TH-cam.
As usual Ted provides us with a thoughtful and interesting discourse on the question at hand. It seems to me that the US college system is no longer the guarantee of a career and lifestyle it perhaps once was, and probably hasnt been for a long time. If you weigh up the cost of a degree against the equipment, workshops books and travel you can undertake on your own to pursue your passion I think you would come out better "educated," probably more creative and almost certainly in less debt than you would if your attended college. I also think you will find more enthusiasm, more genuine experience and almost certainly more humility amongst guys like Ted and other genuine enthusiasts for photography than most of the overworked teachers of it who probably burned out years ago. Nowadays its not about the cookie cutter graduate coming out of college, its about the artisinal beer, or breadmaker or artist of photographer who is self taught and inspired by whoever it is that inspires them. Good luck and dont be afraid to back yourself.
I graduated from college with a degree in music as well! It was really cool to learn that about you and hear your take on this topic. I always enjoy what you post on your channel and look forward to each video you put up.
Thanks for the video! I was really struggling to decide if I should continue my photography degree however you've really cleared my mind up a bit.
One good thing about going to photography school is in the time you are there in the first 3 months or so you will cover all the basics so you don't have to back track later on and try and learn some basic principles of photography. And of course as Ted said you are working on assignments all the time, are critiqued, and various students work together and share there ideas.
In the day when I went to school tuition was cheap, but now it's crazy. Really crazy. If you want to get into the commercial side of photography such as portraiture, commercial, industrial, or photojournalism, school may help especially if you want to work as an in-house photographer or want to seek employment.
If you want to own your own business, make sure you take some type of business courses. They may be more important than photography. Fine Art photography is difficult to make a living from. Contact Fine Art photographers who are already making a living selling their art before you decide to go to school. A college degree if it is at least a four year degree can give you opportunity to teach too. When I went to school most photography degrees were only two year associate degrees.
Lonnie, you are correct in adding that including business training being more important if going into business for yourself which a lot of photographers do today.
Nice thoughtful, measured response to a difficult question.
Well done.
PS - As an amateur photographer (at best), I enjoy your videos immensely. Thank you.
If i was going to get a degree today. I would get a degree in media studies rather than photogrpahy, because when i got my HND. I soon found out that the people who were interviewing me only had A levels. all you need is talent and experience.
If it's just a photography degree from any college, I'd say the answer is no. In my opinion it's a complete waste of time to do a photography degree somewhere in Upper Sticks or Lower Neck of the Woods. I'm not saying their teachers will be bad or not devoted to their students, but I don't think they will be able to offer their students more than they can achieve through extensive practice (i.e. shoot, make mistakes, draw conclusions, shoot again, make different mistakes etc.) and research on their own.
If it's a well known centre, providing great teachers, opportunities for networking with people in the art world, publishing your work and one has the possibility to use all that good stuff, then it may be worth giving it a go. Still, there is no guarantee that getting a degree with a good art school is going to make anyone successful in the field of art. It makes for an easier start if it's a well respected University in a right place, but there is way more to this than just a degree.
Just to clarify, I do not have a degree in photography (and never will have one, unless I have way too much time to spare and no idea what to do with it), my way of learning it, apart from being taught the exposure triangle and basics of image composition, was reading books on composition, painting, photography, sculpture, architecture and also going through tons of photo books. And shooting, making mistakes and shooting again, as often, as I could. Any subject available. Watching this podcast for the past 5 years was also something that gave me tremendous amount of food for thoughts and helped me many times along the way (thank you for that, Mr Forbes).
True, I am not some sort of new Norman Parkinson or Avedon, but I hope I will never stop learning and will keep getting better. But, from the perspective of those 6 years I spent learning, I think if I were to choose a degree to help me along the way, my first choice would be a degree in law, probably.
David Meyer Thanks for the kind words David.
The Art of Photography You are most welcome. For me AOP is the podcast to recommend to people who are interested in photography as a form of expression and are not interested in photography as a science of pixel peeping and gear comparison charts. This may not be a streamlined photography course, but I'm the kind of person who likes to learn things on their own. I just need some inspiration, some idea to follow up on and I'm good to go and try new things. AOP has been providing me with that for these past 5 years and I hope it will stay this way for the years to come.
David Meyer I started a formal photographic education (in the UK) and got good grades at a basic level (i'm in my 40's and enjoyed it very much) I didn't take it to a degree level but many of my fellow students have done..I left because the focus was on portraiture and fashion two disciplines I have little interest in but ofc are the major pro bread and butter however I would never say the time was wasted ...any chance to immerse yourself in photography and not worry about a 9-5 whilst constantly picking up ideas and tips will improve any one photography and also their love of the medium.
TheDocfonz I'm not saying nobody will benefit from doing photography course in a college. Depends on the college and the person in question. 15 years ago I chose to study history and back then I had very little interest in photography. If I had to start from scratch, was 15 years younger and had the time and money to spare, I would probably consider a degree from LCoF, more for the people and networking opportunities though than for the degree itself. Although if I could advise that 15 years younger me, I would still suggest a degree in law. Luckily, I'm too old to care about pieces of paper. This is not something that would bring me more business, so from the business point of view I can't see it as a good investment.
From the passion point of view, I agree that any experience of being able to indulge in your passion is great and I'm totally envious of people who can afford that sort of indulgence. I wasn't able to do that sort of thing and I had to do my 9-5 most of the time until 2014, doing photography on top of that since 2009. It's exhausting and there still is a price to pay for that. For me going to college to study photography simply wasn't an option and I didn't mind that because I like learning on my own. Even if it's difficult to find the time and sometimes energy to do that.
David Meyer I just think any qualified photography course will help any prospective tog it onl;y starts happening once you start to work with other like minded creative ppl.
The myths surrounding mastering of skills rage on. The 10,000 hour rule has been called into question, and with additional scrutiny it was found that it did not account for individuals that defied the odds (3yrs instead of ten to reach mastery). What was left out of the study was innate talent. School could raise the level of your ability and open doors for jobs but is not X factor for your success. Ansel Adams dyslexia translated in his ability to break apart the status quo
of the popular understanding of photography of his day. How’s that factored in. Photography is more science than anything else. Pretty images are the result of bringing art to the mastery of machines. Photography(the science)is influenced by art. If your an artist you may do well in photography and “mastery” may come more quickly.
It is a sad state of affairs in the arts community when they are more interested in whether or not you have a certificate of membership in the college club than if you have any actual talent or a fresh perspective.
Hey Ted, My experience mirrors yours very closely. My qualifications are not much to do with anything arts related and I also went onto teach (as an adjunct) and the only time I have ever been asked to prove I do actually have the qualifications I claim, was at my university jobs.
The big deal today seems to be that any dumb schmuck can call themselves a "Photographer" and even if they do produce good work (very few do and I am certainly not consistent in my own work either), the opportunities to make a living from it are close to zero.
"Get a day job that gives you the freedom to pursue your personal preferences" is perhaps the best advice I can give myself. The days of romantic (read 'poor') of doing your art in an artists garret in Paris are a century or more out of date. You need health insurance and something to provide the yearly camera body upgrades, after all!
Brian Richman well said Brian!
Yearly body upgrades? :o
sounds like someone who doesn't believe in themself.
A photography degree is absurd. I have friends with fine art degrees. They actually thought that a fine art degree would guarantee them a life in arts. They were really surprised to find they would have to bag groceries after graduation. They were really surprised to find out that in the 21st century, "artist" isn't really a job description.
Degrees in fine arts, photography, fashion, music, you name it... are not golden tickets to blessed lives where you get paid to be a creative special snowflake. Unless you're already a wealthy individual who will never *need* to work to pay bills, you should get a proper degree, which photography is not.
If you want to do photography, just grab a camera and do it. If you're getting a degree, get one which means anything in the job market, like engineering, sciences, law... Then, in the very unlikely chance you're not discovered as the monumentally talented photographer that I'm sure you are, you can get a real job. Yes, it has the inconvenience of having to do actual work, but it will save you the hassle of having to work multiple shit jobs to keep afloat, enabling you to actually do photography in your spare time. Nothing stops you from trying to become a full time photographer later, when you're able to stay above the poverty line without the help of your parents.
I'm from a country where education is free, (which is nice) but we then have 2 systems and photography is in the system build as an apprenticeship, it takes 3,5-4 years and you switch between school and working for a pro photographer. I think this way is AWESOME expect that the photographer has to pay a salary which is deffined by goverment and that makes it hard to get into these kind of educations as many photographers can't afford or get approved to have students..
But hey if you don't try you go no where :) Thanks for this video I needed that.. I just want to learn and I'll get there someday, life is full of bended roads and u-turns, but if you don't go through it you wouldn't be the person you are today :)
Subbed, very inspiring content you are producing Ted :)
Greetings from the cold north, Denmark and from a "full steam ahead aspiring 23 year old" photographer.
Thanks Ted, this was very helpful.
Rather than pay for an expensive education what about joining a camera club? Ticks all the boxes for me as i can fit my "education" around other commitments and i can draw on the huge amount of experience of my peers. Whats more its a friendly social environment too. Only costs me £40 a year.
Good advice
Ted, this is an extremly interesting topic! My opinion is that by far the best thing about making a degree is that you are surrounded daily by people that are getting experts themselves. So you have the possibility for exchange of knowledge, criticism, opinion and so on all the time!! Pretty much everything else you can teach yourself, if you are aware, that 95% of internet tutorials and common books about photography you get in every bookstore only get you to a certain point. You really need to dig deeper, on to the scientific level (as they do at the university). This information is far more hard to find. Unfortunately the "noise" of tutorials teaching basically the same thing is very high.
Also one important thing is the access to highend equipment you get for free at the university like Nikon scanners for example.
As long as you are willing to work hard and bring some talent better go your own way in photography and study something that is a sure money maker and possibly teach you economy.
Thank you so so so much for this video!!!! It's very well done and educational👍🏻
I got my BA (hons) in photography last summer, and I loved it! I'm going back to London in a month for the next years end of year show.
But, i'm from the UK, where the student loans, whilst still not ideal. Are about a billion times better than they are in the States, especially for "liberal arts degrees".
And just from a perspective of guest speakers, which wasn't a reason i joined my university, but once i was there they were seriously good and an added bonus.
We had some absolutely unbelievable guests who came to do lectures.
Lukas Birk (ch-ch-check him out, he's crazy good) who was an ex-student from my university. Simon Roberts, Edmund Clarke, Zed Nelson, Kurt Tong, Perou, Laura Pannack, Tim Flach, and loads more..
@Higher Frequency It was a three year degree, originally I joined on a two year foundation, but I always had the intention on taking the third year..
As it turns out, I should have joined on the three year from the start.. There were a few semesters which were harder than the full degree. For one semester in my second year, we had three practical units, when the BA had just two and one theory.
many say that it's more important to get a degree in business as you can use that for any career and anyways a pro photographer will tell you that only 10-20% off their time is spent taking pix and the other 80-90% off their time is spent on the business of photography life marketing, clients calling, employees, products, networking, website, etc, etc. also the avg pay for a photographer in the USA is only around $ 30-50k per year which is not very much at all especially if you spent 4 years and $50-80k+ for a degree. your time would be better spent doing an internship with a pro or networking with other photographers to get more experience and contacts in the industry.
I advise against getting degrees in MOST arts and humanities, and instead use the money you save on the programs, put it to buy some gear--just enough to get your feet wet; nothing fancy; and some books on the subject--and use the rest to establish a nestegg (like investing) for yourself so you can eventually pursue your own work without having to make compromises or suffering in pursuit of your own 'vision'.
Let me be clear: I wish I had photography classes available in my high school (when I first started shooting) and/or media classes in my old junior college, just to take them; and art school sounds like a playground for young adults that would be fun as hell to attend. (But everyone I know who's gone through these programs, regardless of the quality of their work, is struggling to do things that like pay the rent, and often I believe their work is suffering for it.)
But being self-taught, I've nonetheless been employed in various aspects of digital media--television and video, predominantly--managed to land myself a gig as an assistant to one of the best photographers in town, and am becoming known as for my work, just owing to how prolific I am. (I shoot a lot.) I study a lot; and now I have people, some who've been doing this longer than I, asking for my input and advice. (I was a chef before I devoted myself to video/media and photography, and worked my way, without a culinary degree, up through restaurants and positions just by working at it. Ref. Charlie Trotter.)
I am still learning. I don't call myself a 'photographer'.
Furthermore, when it comes to the subjectivity of 'art'--and I don't even care about that word--what I've seen emerging from these programs is a 'haute dogma' that, in its desire to be exclusive or above the fray/common man--which is limiting as well as dishonest. A lot of stylized nonsense under the pretense of 'expertise' or 'experience' that most likely will crush the creative spirit that drives 'art' and exploring in the first place.
That, in the end, is what it should be. Fun. Meaningful if you can make it so; but the kind of 'work' that you enjoy doing, and yields results you hopefully are happy with.
In trying to become a 'pro'--after you've spent all that money getting a degree-- you're competing against MWACs and iphones, in a market with a surge of graduates as well as formerly established photographers who've been recently laid off from previous employers, and people who typically get their positions through sycophancy more than anything else. So you mine as well have fun--in a devoted, disciplined sense--and use the money you'd spend on tuition to buy yourself the following:
An old-fashioned SLR with manual controls. Chemicals and a developing tank for developing the negative cost less than $100 from B&H. (I get my color developed at Walgreens.) A good film scanner; and Epson scanner preferably. The V500 cost less than $200. A couple of 'how to' books, and a couple of photography books from guys whose work you like. If there's no one's book who you'd be willing to spend $40 to $65 on, then you probably shouldn't be shooting.
All these together will cost you less than one semester at art school. Take the rest of the money you save and travel somewhere, shoot, and see what comes out.
(PS I could be wrong. But I haven't had to shoot a single wedding or 'society event' to pay the bills or my college loans.)
Get a degree? Absolutely. Get one in photography? I would say no. I did a BA in photography and to be honest, I gained nothing from it. After my course I didn't have access to the same equipment to keep building my portfolio and my course didn't really give me the opportunity to make great connections either. Places that need photographers need people with experience and a BA in photography only says you know how to use a camera, it doesn't show how experienced you are in a given field. I would advise a degree in something more stable then if you still wanted education in photography or at least a piece of paper to say you did, go on to do an MA.
If you just want to do one thing like weddings or some other type of money maker photography gig then you do not need a degree. If you really want to learn all aspects of photography because you love photography from a to z then I highly recommend going to school. You learn so much, and you have access to equipment you probably can't afford.
Agreed - a college degree is great for getting a job - in a college....everywhere else, not so much - I also studied jazz music in college but left before I got the degree - nobody I ever auditioned for or played with ever asked to see some paper before plugging in so it seemed time better spent ( and cheaper ) to actually play ( and make a bit of money while doing so ) rather than take on debt...and I learned a LOT more in a much shorter time playing than I did in class...
call me a cynic but I look at Universities like I do medicine. It's mostly big business. In both cases, when you can, take good care of yourself.
David Rothschild I agree ;-)
David Rothschild I agree at the end of the day they are trying to make money but there are a lot of great instructors out there that are willing to teach their students as much as they possibly can so i do believe it is a good choice provided you have good instruction at the university or college you go to
Personally I feel there is no such thing as teaching, only learning. I went to school for 6 years was in student loan debt for 10 after graduation and I would say 90% of what I learned I don't use so it's a poor allocation of money in some cases.
jeremy higgins Also there are plenty of wonderful photographers who are not affiliated with a University who are willing to share their time. Local darkrooms and classes come to mind.
Interesting topic, Ted. I have some strong feelings about college and the crushing debt that follows but I'd be better not starting a flame war ;)
If you're planning on going to school in the US don't do it. But consider going up to Canada, especially Montreal. Fees are much less in Canada, and Concordia University in Montreal is a well regarded school with a good photo program. Having said that I think that if you'll be studying photography at the University level, you go there for 'artistic development' and nothing else. Artistic development includes technique as well, but mostly it's based on the conceptual level. If you want to grow in a conceptual way, then go to University in arts, but if you want to go for technical learning, you're better off on Lynda.com or a technical school.
So a photo degree if worth pursuing depending on what you want, technique (not worth pursuing) or artistic development (worth pursuing). And consider going to Canada, I'm sure that even with the cost of an apartment it'll be much less than int eh US.
Great... Good perspective and the decision to take up a degree is very subjective and personal. I had also posted a video on this topic a week ago. Can I get a feed back on the same from you?
I think I will just end up getting an associates degree, it wouldnt be as expensive or time consuming.
Thank you so much! I know what I have to do now.
It's simple if you want a degree get one if not don't it's not key in getting into photography but I can defiantly help one of my personal tutors at my uni was last years hassleblad grand master for product photography and he's been great in helping me get too a high quality level I work quickly and get some great work experience under my belt
I never went to University because Teachers in college put me off even going for a job in the arts, "its unrealistic".. sigh... anyway now I do have a career in photography however, I think if I could go back to do it I would. Its taken me longer to get to to where I currently am and I have seen others more advanced in their career because they made important connections along the way. Its a tricky one.
James Tarry But are you in a hurry?
Also, others are not you, their path is not yours. You made your choices in the past and managed to have a career in photography anyway, so I'd say it's an achievement. Experience you've gained through not doing arts degree may as well be what makes you the photographer you are today.
David Meyer hi David, I never stated that my advice/experience was right for someone else. Am I in a hurry? Maybe, now yes, age is catching up and I personally missed out on 10-15 years of photography and would most likely be in a better position now IF I had made different choices. I'm not saying it's the right way for everyone but it def worth really thinking about
James Tarry I've been doing quite a few things during my student years and I was planning a totally different career path (publishing, that was the specialization of my studies). I had passion for writing and literature and several hobbies to do in my spare time. I was interested in visual arts, especially painting, but photography didn't exist as an option nor was it playing any significant role in my life back then.
Would I be a better photographer if back in 2000 when they told me what exposure triangle is, I decided to pursue it as a career? Maybe yes. Maybe not. The curious thing is that all those things I did, either as a hobby or to pay the bills, all those things that had nothing to do with photography, seem to find their way into my photography and business now. Those things gave me skills I use, they gave me inspiration and seem to influence my photography today. So, would I tell my younger self to do things in a different way? Sure I would (not that my younger self would listen). Would I tell my younger self to grab that Zenit EM back in 2000 and start shooting like crazy? No.
I simply think that skills we gain through things other than photography have value as well and find their way to who we are as photographers and I believe it's better to focus on future goals and present needs than to look back and think "what if?". Then again, I'm a historian and historians are not allowed to look back and ask "what if?" They are only allowed to look back and analyze the facts :)
James Tarry with the advent of the internet many awesomwe photographers are overwhelmed by the avalanche of utter rubbish spewed forth by the intwernet the key is to rise above it and be notice3ed
David Meyer I totally agree with you that the things that we have done can be a massive influence on how we work/shoot now.........and in fact this year probably would never had been as successful as it has been if I hadnt have made a massive unrelated photography choice last year.
Would going to Uni have made me a better photographer? I'm not too sure. But I do know for a fact that most of my contemporaries are shooting the kind of gigs at the level I would like to be at because they went to Uni and got the connections-not because they are necessarily better, but because they were introduced and around the right people.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and if I (personally) could tell younger self to not listen to the awful teachers and their bitter advice and to follow my dream I would-although you are right, I probably wouldnt have listened either haha
I pretty much told myself if I don't get into a top art school there is no point and lucky I got into 1 of 2 that are very well respected with lots of industry relevance here in London. I have a friend who went way out of his major city to study it in the middle of nowhere and it really did not open the doors he thought it would.
+E3Zombie EXACTLY! if you don't get into the top art schools then theres no point
'Success' has different meanings to different people in fine art. You CAN be successful at becoming a popular artist without college degree although better known galleries nowadays seem to expect masters degree. On the other hand, to be a GOOD artist, you need proper feed backs from dedicated people. There are countless number hobbists who love cameras and enjoy taking photos but chances are not many of them are capable of give consdtuctive criticism. My point is, unless pretty photos of sunset and naked ladies are all there is to your ambition, you will have hard time growing as an artist by yourself. Plus, contemporary art is no longer something you can just figure out on your own. You better undestand where you are standing amongst other desperate young artists in order to convince galleries why you matter.
Duck Swarm The bottom like is that I find it strange people focus on 'bang for the buck' when it comes to art education. I can honestly say NO art education in america is worth THAT much money. But if you are serious about LEARNING art, there is really no other option.
NO! Don't. You will learn many things about yourself, but it will hold no weight when it comes to getting a job in the industry. Go for something more desirable and learn photography on the side. Great video idea!
Danny Pops what's more desirable jobs ?
Riya Gill i should probably said "in demand" any job that pays well enough for your need and there is a market for. Maybe finance or engineering for starters?
So photography isn’t a good career?
Haylei Vlogs depends on what type of photography you want to do
I can tell you the answer is no before even watching the video. I got a language degree and let me tell you experience is way more valuable than a degree. Just get a BS and then you can get good in photography or anything else in the side.
I just grad and received a diploma from photography program. I am planning to take Bachelor Degree but I need you to recommend which university does offer bachelor and not only focused on photography.
Very good wisdom!
Just discover your channel through slr lounge awesome videos thank you for sharing. Subscribing :)
Tomas Ramoska Thanks Tomas! Welcome!!
Woah, that white balance shift at 1:43 came out of nowhere :D
As did the sun. Moving clouds are hard to shoot with ;-)
The Art of Photography Damn you sun! You douche!
Thank you
For the ridgt advice
😊
I'm 56 years old, semi retired and seriously thinking of doing a photography degree. I'm sure I'll get more use out of it than my law degree although I loved being a student. But I think I'm looking for something different than someone much younger, my degree would be for me and not for a career.
Did you go to photography course?
No. In my opinion, Arts degrees are not worth the money. I have a degree in music from a prestigious Conservatory that I regret wasting my money on. The experience was great, but I could have achieved the same level of success without the fancy piece of paper that's currently hanging in my office.
Very reasonable answer
i like your glasses "wear" did you get it from!? let me know
Nicely Said.
I am a grade 10 student and am very much intersted in photography what should i do to become the a good photographer and can complete all the course on photography sir plze help me to find and acehive my aim
if i had the money, instead of going to school i would travel a lot to shoot different places.
Awesome
Please don't get a photography degree. Just don't.
how can I get a degree in middle school? Can I get one?
lol no u can't get a degree in middle school but you can stick to getting grades and staying focus because it will help you later on☺😌
Depends on your situation and where you live. In the US a lot of places have Early College programs. If you're really passionate about it then you could go there. But if you're interested in Photography you'd be better off going to an arts-focused high school.
i want to be a photographer
Be one
im australian and want to use a photography degree to enter the industry in NYC. Is this a pipe dream?
mbuh ah, ra sesuai karo kovere
Here is another thought.
I served in the Air Force and the Army. If there is something that you are interested in to where you want to make a career out of it, they have a school for it. You don't even have to be active duty, you can be National Guard or Reserve. Some states have programs (like Massachusetts, which I used) where if you are in their National Guard, you can go to any state school tuition free.
When I was active duty, I was even able to go to school at night, and the classes were paid for by the military.
So if you decide you want to be a photographer, and you are okay with dedicating the same amount of time to the military as you would with school you can learn the trade in the military and get practical experience. If you join the Air Force and are willing to work for it, you can get a two year degree from the Community College of the Air Force by the end of your four year enlistment. You then switch over to the National Guard or Reserves so you have a modest source of income, and you can use the GI Bill to go to any school you want, where the VA will pay for it, plus you will get a stipend to live on.
I am not a recruiter, and I am no longer in the military. So I receive no benefit in giving this advice. But if you are interested in becoming a photographer with practical experience right out the gate, and your tuition covered, it is something you should at least consider.
I am honestly considering joining the Reserves again, just so I can request that they send me to school to become a photographer. (Nice thing about the National Guard and Reserves is you can change your career field every four years if you go about it right, depending on where you serve and how willing the command is to work with you.)
No, god, please no. One of the most worthless degrees around. I have a friend that I discovered is now a "professor" teaching photography at a major art school. I can't sleep at night knowing kids are being charged a hundred thousand or so to get a degree from him. He was no genius at using a camera or anything, he got a camera from his car salesman daddy, started taking pictures for fun, then decided to make a career out of it when he couldn't do anything else. I've seen his pictures over time, and while you want to be nice to the guy, I don't want to tell him he's a hack who does nothing special.
Art is honestly something some people have and some people don't. I know a kid who is special ed who draws really damn well. If he told me he had a PhD. in art, I'd believe him, but he's 16, lol. He has absolutely ZERO reason to go to college to pursue a degree in art, unless it's architecture or something, if he can handle it. What he does is a skill. Photography is not art. There probably are some guys who take amazing pictures, but it's probably rare and maybe not even marketable.
not art is debateable