Saiyan transformations mirror technological development. The OG Great Ape was like an early PC. Absolutely epic and mind blowing compared to the fist large commercial computers. Since that time everything has gotten smaller, more powerful, way faster and more efficient. Compare those early PCs (Great Apes) to anything cutting edge in use today (Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego) and it’s laughably underpowered…still important, still remember fondly, but a relic of ages past.
Except Ssj is not as powerful as Oozaru. Oozaru is just more sluggish but it's WAYYY more powerful. It's why Super Broly was allegedly able to keep up with Goku n Vegeta. Because he kept his tail and was able to harness the power of the Great Ape form while being normal
@@shirothr5384 Zenkai works from near death experience and full recovery. You don't get Zenkai mid fight. You have to be near death exhaustion or damage and then fully recover to get the Zenkai boost. Broly's power is from having kept his tail and tapping into Oozaru. Goku says it in the movie
@@PermanentHigh That makes no sense. Broly was constantly getting stronger even before Ikari. Considering it's a 10 times boost after he already started pressing SSJ Vegeta and kept getting stronger from there, Ikari is not stronger than SSJ. It's a 10x boost while SSJ is 50. There's no comparison.
Broly doesn't have a tail, there is a brief conversation between Paragus and Frieza about how Ikari allows Broly to gain the great ape power without the use of his tail (or transforming).
Always thought golden great ape was "the true power" of the super saiyan and the super saiyan transformations were just tapping into it. It made ss4 make sense in my mind with goku ascending to golden great ape and controlling the power and rage that could possibly go on to destroy the universe if left unchecked. That would have been a great way to wake up beerus and actually start the god arc.
This is why i like SSJ4 more than SSJ God. "Return to monkey" would be a much better power step than God ki. It's my belief that SSJ4 is just the fully controlled form of SSJ monkey, SSJ grade 4 monkey, basically. I believe that there would then be an SSJ2 and SSJ3 Monkey, probably named SSJ5 and SSJ6. I do like Ultra Instinct though, and personally i wish that was a final technique taught by Roshi to Goku and Krillin.
@@nicardosaunders9525 i mean, he does use a version of Ultra Instinct in one of his fights. never had to be a God-Ki thing, could have just been a Kung-fu master technique like it usually is in the Fighting genre
Ultra instinct is a very good concept. Even more so because it has nothing to do with being a saiyan. Presumably anyone can reach it. Here is what is more intriguing to me though, what happens when you start combining ultra instinct with the saiyan transformations? I'm pretty sure this should be possible because from the look of it, it kinda looks like an upgraded God form for goku. So that should mean that he could do what he did with ssg and ssblue. What pisses me off about the writing for dbz and super is that goku never fully masters his forms after the original super saiyan form. If I was him I would've trained every form like he trained super saiyan in the hyperbolic time chamber so that he could stay in those forms all the time with little to no stamina draw. Hell he could've done that the entire time he was farming. Just staying in ssblue. He should've worked on mastering ss2&3 atleast.
I always liked Super Saiyan 4 too. I had the same thoughts as you, that eventually if they kept training, they could achieve higher levels in the Super Ape Saiyan forms. However, I always thought that Vegeta and Goku were gonna end up being gods in Dragon Ball, so UI being a god technique is unsurprising to me lol
Or maybe the legend of the super sayain was so unbelievable to sayains who didn't witness it that over the years the general consensus became one of believing that there was no way the power of a super sayain could be packed inside of a humanoid form. Also since its a transformation more powerful than regular Oozaru, and with Oozaru being the only transformation sayains knew of at the time, logic would dictate that you would have to first go Oozaru and then transform into the Legendary Super Sayain form.
Eh, I'd say it's just because they associated their strongest form with being a lesser form of an even stronger form, because they didn't know what else it could have been. Sayians got stronger by turning into Great Apes, so they probably thought that an even stronger form than Great Ape would just have been another Great Ape form that would be different in some way, like being even bigger or something.
Im glad you mentioned universe 6 saiyans. They were the perfect way to bring the ozaru form back. Saiyans that never got eradicated, continued to live for battle, continued to have children that became more powerful each generation, and with each generation getting better and better at using the ozaru form to the point where maybe they could of had different variations of it. And then we could of had a big difference between both universes saiyans but nope they dont have tails and they looks different. How disappointing 😞
my headcanon for universe 6 sayians is that they aren't pure they mixed with the tuffles instead of killing them giving them better ki control and more youthful appearance and causing them to eventually lose thier tail via evolution many generations later
I love the Great Ape concept, and honestly, I'm glad that Super didn't touch it. They would have just mucked it up or diminished it in some fashion. By the Great Ape being left alone, it gets to keep its legacy. Remember Future Trunk's legacy of having gone to the past to save his future? Super destroyed that. I have no doubt something bad would have happened if they tried to use the Great Ape.
No you couldn't be more wrong by them not using it that is making it seem worthless and obsolete I want to see it come back but the form broly used in the movie was the great ape power up just without the transformation
Would love for them to incorporate it into the newer series. Like what they did in gt although not canon but including the great ape into super Saiyan form like ssj4 or into either Vegeta or Goku newer forms would be freaking awesome. Tapping into primal Saiyan force with a heightened sense of control and introducing new villains who hand them they ass to get them there
@@DrakusWolfChild maybe because it was vegito that saved his universe? I’m not sure cause In Z, gohan was the one who killed cell so trunks didn’t really save the day alone their either
I always liked how the Saiyans we're like Apes, I don't know if people get mad about mentioning the evolution theory, but if we are descendents of monkeys, I always thought it was kinda cool that humans in real life were similar in that aspect, also, I noticed that Dragon Ball Budokai Tenkaichi music in the background Saiyan Scholar, I just played that game two hours ago for old times sake.
I miss the saiyan tails, it made them unique, and visible different from a normal human. Even back in OG Dragon Ball, you could tell that Goku was different, just wasn’t sure how. It’s a shame that Toriyama hated drawing them, and got rid of them at the first chance he got.
Same. It makes me even more mad when you consider that both Frieza and Cell had tails, too. If it bothered him that bad, he should have just had the tail wrapped around them like furry belts. He did it with Raditz, Vegeta, Nappa, etc. Could have just left it out of the way and easy to draw. Just a dark "rope" around their waist. *sigh*
I feel you on this. I always felt like Golden Oozaru was a multiplier in the thousands, cause there was absolutely no way it was only slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 3
@jonnylawless6797 I think it's a 4k multiplier to start with. When he first transforms with the golden aura, it has the bio electricity, so to me, he's using his full SSJ power, which is SS3. Wouldn't make sense to not use SS3s power.
Imo 10 times boost in strength is just the tip of the iceberg, it increases in weight to the sum of being definitely a few thousand kg so i like to think its a ten times boost in strength to weight ratio, not tryna deep it out tho
I always loved the concept of the Golden Great Ape. Basically a Super Saiyan Great Ape. Makes sense to me. SSJ4 being the more refined version itself. No more golden anything. Like both SSJ and Great Ape both were it's own thing to work together to be the true legendary Super Saiyan. That said, I never bought in the 500x. At the lowest I felt if would be a SSJ3 times the 10x boost. So 4,000x. But there could always be an unknown factor of the Great Ape itself being more than 10x while SSJ and then the SSJ4 being far refined. Me personally I feel like a 50x increase over SSJ2 is good. So an overall of 10,000x
I'd also like to point out the roars we heard during Goku's Ultra Instinct transformation. This tells us that Oozaru may still be in there, and that there may be a link between Ultra instinct and Oozaru's "instinct" to destroy.
If you really think about it, the Oozaru form is also the most important form because it set up the idea of Sayian bodies being able to undergo changes when influenced by different kinds of energy. Blutz waves just became Ki for Super Sayian, God Ki for Super Sayian God, and the Spirit Bomb for Ultra Instinct.
Scouters should've measured the ratio between the target's power level vs your own. Then we could've inferred our own power levels from those ratios over the series in a way that wouldn't have the insane power creep Dragonball Z ended up having.
I have a theory that the power levels are actually much more closer than we see them as. We’re relying on alien numbers and tech (a scouter) which wouldn’t translate to earth numbers. So if Goku was actually over 9,000 (dub) then who’s to say that’s not a 9 on our scale? If vegeta at the time was (for simplicity) at a PL of 9,500 then it could be simplified to 9.5 for us and that .5 would be significant enough to overpower the Z Fighters. So essentially who’s to say SSJ3 isn’t just a PL of ~900 or so? To me this gives power levels an actual chance.
@@RookieMistakeYT Very cool way of viewing this. You could go even further to say that maybe power levels may have been meant to be viewed the same way the Japanese Yen currency is in relation to the US dollar, similar to how in Pokemon 10 year olds clearly arent actually spending $200+ on each pokeball they buy and instead it's more like $2+.
Think of the Saiyans transforming into the Great Ape and all collectively firing full power Mouth beams at the Death Ball, sending it back and towards Frieza. With their collective power, Im sure they could have eradicated Frieza and his Army with a combined blast.
Yeah if the human population can help make a spirit bomb big enough to beat buu this probably could've worked for the sayians since we can assume they're all much stronger than humans on default and are getting a 10 times boost and Frieza was only in his base state
Alas, this was utterly impossible for the saiyan race. They feared people like dodoria, whom was able do destroy their elite warriors with ease. Now on said planet, a lot of saiyans were civilians or lower class warriors. The simple multiplier making them 10x stronger doesn't do much on Radditz lvl warriors, simply because base frieza sitting in his throne has already gotten a power lvl that is atleast 20x that of a great ape Saiyan. Due to dragonball logic saying you can shrug of an opponents attack if you are 2x stronger... well let's just say that would not go well for the saiyan race😂 but let that sink in for a moment, frieza formed an energy ball that was the size of a moon🤣 how high do you think he raised his power lvl to do that? (I think it was at the very least 500k) now while they may deflect that ball, frieza has 3 transformations and can easily triple his power lvl😅 so he'd end up solo murdering the entire race, just having to do a bunch of grunt work. Simply cause they couldn't damage him, keep up with his speed and he could blow up the planet whenever since "he can breathe in space"😂
The Earth's area in total is about 13.5x larger than the Moon. The Earth's land area is almost 4x larger than the total area of the moon. In terms of mass which is what you want to look at. The Earth is about 81x more massive than the moon. So ~450x81=36,450. Of course the simple explanation is AT just pulled number out of his ass as he went along that seemed reasonable and made for a good story. So scaling only works only so much before it breaks down. If AT wanted to make power levels make sense Goku wouldn't have jumped from being less than 1K during his fight w/ Raditz to over 8/9K after 1 year training with King Kai. As well as 6 days of training making him increase his power over 10x by the time he reached Namek. Or more than 33x after his fight with Ginyu to face off against Freeza. None of these huge increases make rational sense except for that AT wanted to use big numbers as a shock factor for his story telling. Nothing more and nothing less. I mean we are talking about the author who forgot SSJ2 even existed.
My guy I think you’re forgetting that this is the North Kai, deities that govern entire worlds, & his world has 10x Earth gravity as is. & I don’t know if you understand how gravity & exercise works
The problem is that he was winging it, he didn't scale the powers because he had no plan for how the story would progress. He just needed each power up to bridge the gap between the characters and a given villain. They need to be only so much more powerful than their previous power up.
I think of power level not as a final number but as a dot product representative of a power matrix applied to the various vectors of fighting ability, muscle efficiency, speed, etc. so raising your power level would have different impacts on battle presence in various factors. And applying a multiplier to your power level would have a much higher multiplier on battle PRESENCE due to the constant being applied across the entire matrix, which is then applied to each ability vector
Ki is just one modifier for all the other data points, and anything that effects Ki is going to affect everything else with it. But the specifics of certain forms (SSJ3 decreases agility and speed while increasing strength, Great Ape does the same but also dramatically increases mass) will change the relationships between those data points.
Here's how I see it, Golden Great Apes multiplier started around 50x10 (500x) but as it risen, it went 100x10 (1000x) than at maximus 400x10 (4000x). To put it bluntly, Great Ape Goku was channeling the power of all SSJ transformation until it transformed into SSJ4, which has much higher multiplier than GGA at max power.
I have always thought that the Golden Ozaru was the beta god form. This is because Super Saiyan 4 form takes the Golden Ape and somehow increases it or makes it more tame-able. Giving Super Saiyan 4 a very inconsistent power level.
Oozaru looks like a fusion of Kong and Godzilla. The Godzilla-like face shape and the Ki blast from the mouth similar to the atomic breath. Maybe Godzilla's tail resulted in the fusion having a monkey tail.
The SSJ transformations makes you wonder how Goku would've acted if he never got his SSJ mastered into a calm state. His other transformations in Z and GT did alter his personality and perhaps rushing into those transformed states could've made Goku more violent. Just a speculation of course but it could've been interesting to see if he would've changed.
I still like to think the Oozaru golden great ape was still the true super Saiyan Vegeta spoke of. And my only question is: How did they obtain it without a tail as seen with vision? Also the super Saiyan was just lazy manga artists who didn't want to color in gokus hair and eyes anymore.
Maybe Super Saiyan was a being different than regular Saiyans? You called that blonde hair form "Super Saiyan" because no-one knew what a Super Saiyan was. It could've just been an evolution. Whilst the real Super Saiyan was genetically much stronger and more brutal than a regular saiyan due to genetic mutations.
Ive wondered the same thing. If only we knew the true multipier of golden oozaru I feel like people always underrate it's true power and equivalenty underate ssj4 even farther. Very well said man.
It's irrelevant to current dragon ball, toriyama had nothing to do with gt, they aren't his ideas, if golden oozaru ever comes back it'll be a different multiplier anyway
That’s why SSJ4 is still iconic. It brought back the importance and power of the Great Ape/Ozaru form. That’s what SSJ should’ve been. The humanoid SSJ should’ve been the final step
Did you know that Goku is stronger than Kakarot? But more importantly, General Rildo saved the Black Star Dragon Ball Saga by being a real CHAD but people ignore him and only use him as a benchmark. How disappointing nobody factors in his CHADNESS, strategic ways to defeat the enemies, rewards good soldiers with shiny medals, has a Rocket Punch which would have a build-in command grab if Xenoverse and Fighters had him AND one of his forms has a drill. You can't tell me that's not a good character. #Justice4Rildo #RejectCauliflaEmbraceRildo
In my opinion both Goku's ssj and Gohan Ssj2 transformations were so well build up it was amazing. The writting for both transformations was beyond anything else in DB and DBZ.
Hey Saiyan Scholar I just wanted to say that you open my eyes on how powerful the GT cast actually is and how much passion was put in the show than creator of super ever has. If you are reading this I wish to give my theory I want to share in case you want to do a continuation of this video. Did you ever wondered why anyone who uses super Saiyan four brings the user to their prime? How Goku as a kid was able to go his adult form and vegeta growing back his original hairstyle? It’s simple actually: the oozaru. When people like vegeta or kid Gohan from dragon ball did the transformation they were always the about the same size no matter the age. We even see this in GT with Baby and Goku who were both the same size despite having drastically different physical age. And super Sayian four is supposed to have the full mastered potential of the oozaru and the super saiyan legend in humanoid form. This means that the oozaru has the ability to bring users to their physical peak. So if someone like Paragus wish to transform into the mighty oozaru it’s likely that the form would just as healthy as any other oozaru with no gray hairs or wrinkles along his monkey face. This is my personal theory and shows how underrated the Power of the ‘useless’ forms is (I’m a huge fan of Ultra Super saiyan than regular Super Saiyan myself.)
Gt was a cash grab at the time of it being created by the company...Super came into being because Toriyama was so pissed off and disgusted at the live action movie and that they wouldn't let him help them, that he felt compelled to come back for fans after that pos movie.
The tail has always been important towards a Saiyan's power.. Both Oozaru and Great Ape has always been a fond favorite of mine.. Plus Ikari form has something hidden but I've never ever forgotten about it and I'd never ignored it.. that is always impactful and prideful and Astonishing too.. Full Moon and transformation is good enough for me..
I was always on the impression that monkey form was at a minimum 10x but could be more depending on the vitality and tail training of the individual. The ssj also 50x at least but could be more depending on mastery of the form.
Vegeta was the strongest saiyan in history, he still only has a 10x boost in oozaru, it was never mentioned that your strength or training could change it, saiyans didn't train they just went to battle.
@@adamfanning9412 it’s true that it was never stated that. Let’s look at the fight Goku vs Frieza. Goku has no power or strength after the spirit bomb to the point where he needed help to stand. Now Frieza was using 50% when he got hit by the bomb. After he was still able to move and fire a death beam and still had more untapped power. Let’s say Goku was at 1% power after that bomb. How can he get almost twice as strong as 100% Frieza? Rage boost can only give so much. Also if we go based on what has been told in the manga or anime, the golden Oozaru is the true legendary power not normal ssj. Also it was stated that the tail is the source of the saiyans power yet Goten and Trunks never had one. We can’t just go base on what was stated and ignore evidence when they show up. Or we can also change ssj3 and call it ssj2 because Tori forgot about ssj2 and called that one ascended ssj.
So I have a theory maybe since sssj was mix with great ape it actually gave it additional wavelength which caused the great ape form to get stronger then before. Plus the emotional state of rage which keep causing the golden ape form to get stronger by constant rage boost mix with ssj wavelengths amplifying it constantly. So from my understanding golden great ape was literally a berserker form with over flowing power constantly being amplified. Until the user gets control of his senses well truthfully speaking this form is definitely the pinnacle of sayain evolution. Though I have a theory that ssj4 and great ape of mostly posted to be a mixture of primal bussing power and the quality of endurance which tanks a lot of hits but keeps growing stronger. It’s really is the best form for a sayain, frieza was right it’s time to return back to monkey 🙈.
I always though ssj4 was awesome because it was like taking that ape form and energy and condensing it the red hair was like showing closer to the ape form than the human form
Frieza absolutely stomps in every single circumstance except for the moment he destroys planet vegeta cuz Frieza stays in his first form and launches his attack at 500K if all the saiyans fought back in base form they'd get tired and die with a second shot but if even just the elites went into their Oozaru state it's definitly possible. Nappa was considered an elite and his PL was 4000, let's say, king Vegeta is as strong as Bardock at 10,000, Bardock is stated to be at 10,000 so if king Vegeta and Bardock went into their Oozaru states their combined power level would be at 200,000 to absolutely stomp Frieza's first form and maybe kill him they need to be 2.25x stronger than him so the final Saiyan blast needs to be at 1.2 million. If the average high-class Saiyan who can control their Oozaru form is at say 4000 for simplicity sake then the power they need to make up would be 1,000,000 if average elites go Oozaru they'd be at 40,000 which means that King Vegeta + Bardock + 25 average Saiyan elites at Nappa's level (Which there are likely to be far stronger elites than Nappa among the Saiyans) all multiplied by the power of the Oozaru would be more than enough to get rid of Frieza' Supernova and attack him with more than twice the power he has in his 1st form and if all the other low-class Saiyans joined without looking at the moon and fired too the difference would be even greater. Sure not much considering their low power levels and lack of the Oozaru transformation since they can't control it but when you're talking about an entire race that's a lot of power.
@@Karlwasright idk some sources say he's at 4K and others say he's at 6K so I just took the lowest to make my point just in case. I even ussumed King Vegeta to be at Bardock's level which I'm pretty sure is lowballing it since he's most definitely stronger than him.
Saiyan Scholar I literally was thinkin this morning bout The Great Apes in Dragonball wonderin if vegeta would ever get his tail back and wondered if u would ever make a video bout the Apes. Thank u soooo much. U've answered my prayer's
See if always found general power levels abit overplayed. I mean the importance of them by the fan base. A good example would be swoll Trunks. Arguably has a higher power level but his speed is affected so much by his increase in strength and muscle mass that he can't use that higher power level. Or in the opposite way, Gregory on King kias planets. Has a pitiful power level but is super fast so goju can't touch him. "But Powwerrrr leveeel!" People shout like its the only thing important in the show. Power levels were just a convenient way of giving a ruff guide of where a character was in relation to another but wasn't totally accurate within universe let alone in general. The numbers have been re worked so many times over the years depending on the source even when all the sources you check are "official." Including different versions or reprints of the orginal manga and the anime in Japanese and in English. Power scaling dosnt matter from one part of the series to another as long as it makes sense within each part when it is relevant. I always just thought the multiplier changes at different points in the story anyway, which would make sense. As forms are attained, improved and perfected, just like a technique, they become better. The multiplier applied when Goku first attains super sayian could be different to the multiplier once he has learned to control the form better, that make alot more sense that just having a flat multiplier but because fans get all up in there own arse about power levels and there need to be static and perfectly accurate the creators have bent over to try and provide... it make sense in the real world you perform differently in a sport or at the gym day to day based on many factors.
i think when broly went super saiyan that was the closest representation we'll get to "the legendary super saiyan" form cause broly was able to manifest the power of the oozaru form without transforming due to not having the tail and then being driven to super saiyan while still in that form made him stronger than super saiyan blue goku and vegeta, as well as golden frieza. it took them fusing into gogeta and turning super saiyan blue to overpower him and only after broly had already been fighting for over an hour accounting for the 2 failed fusions.
I have a theory regarding the Super Saiyan transformation. So, one of the most defining traits of Saiyans was the fact that they can turn into giant apes, but due to the loss of control and the sheer size they only whip out Monkey Mode when absolutely necessary. I have a feeling that Super Saiyan, biologically, is meant to be a tool for conquering the Ozaru form so as to acquire a more efficient form: SSJ4. Because Super Saiyan, fundamentally, shouldn't be as simple as it is and be exclusive to Saiyans. Why do the Saiyans get the ability to activate a powerup with the only visual change being their hairdo? Why can't humans access a similar form? What makes Super Saiyan so special that only Saiyans can do it? I do not see any logical explanation other than Super Saiyan being the true raw power of the Ozaru, without the necessary biological adaptations needed to actually use it efficiently.
A good question is prior to the genocide who was the strongest saiyan and was their power level? Excluding Broly. Because I thought Frieza was power level was 1,000,000 so around 10 R we Elite class Great Apes could beat or at least successfully rebel and ward off frieza
Its not like they can fuse their it power levels it would be 10 100k power so it means that frieza could tank them all as long as a technique that perfectly fuses power levels existed
Reading that title, I went "even if you have the most basic understanding of dragon ball, you would know automatically that putting saiyan/super/ultra in front of it is better than the other option, so the question doesn't even need a video to answer it"
19:30 I like to imagine what happened in dbm universe 3 where bardock convinces the Saiyans and gives them more time. Then uses broly and all the Saiyans to kill freeza and his family
Overall, an amazing video! I didn't know a good bit about the Oozaru form, thank you for opening my eyes! Your choice in music is great as well. I was wondering, what is the music from the start of the downfall section of the video? It sounds really good.
I realized that you’re pretty hypocritical when it comes to power ups. You were just talking about how you missed how much more reasonable the power boosts were back then. With the oozaru only being x10 and not times a million bajillion. But then you praise the golden oozaru for being times a million bajillion cajillion. Same thing in general when it comes to scaling GT. You’re so proud of and praise the random strength they gain sometimes and ridiculous scaling up it has. But at the same time, you talk about how much you hate that type of stuff in any other series.
you know, i would say doesn't all of Super's scaling apply to GT, but: despite what you've said in a previous video, i think Super is leading to a new canon ending. 2 new canon endings, because the Manga and Anime are separate canons. different timelines too. a Z to GT timeline, a Super timeline, and a future Trunks- oh, wait. in fact Super's Future Trunks is different from Z's Future Trunks too. so there are 2 apocalypse timelines too. 5 timelines total? i think so. this is almost as convoluted and hard to understand as Ben 10. i mean, in all the ways that matter: Omniverse is a reboot, but somehow isn't. and there's this entity called "Prime Ben". Anur Vladius is somehow both canon and pure fanfic. shit's wild
I always saw it more of a larger energy well and better energy manipulation. They seemingly had infinite energy from the moon in the few fights Great Apes had. In a period one Kamehameha was draining, Great Ape Goku shot energy indiscriminately. Great Apes were the current maximum with perfect energy mastery combined with instincts and higher hearing and such, throw Super Saiyan on top it will be much better given energy wells and ki manipulation. So with that in mind I saw Goku and Baby's Golden Oozaru as a SS3 Great Ape. 400 x 10 = 4000 minimum growing strength the more Blutz waves there are. Again, with seemingly endless energy the power level seems much higher than it is as emotions empower a Saiyan many times over whatever transformation they have, and Baby and Goku were really getting pissed off at each other. Like if a cyborg android having infinite energy even being weaker could seemingly be stronger because their power doesn't wane and they can charge energy with time to over power their opponent. It took two titans of power to wear each other down, and even then neither Goku or Baby dropped out of their transformations. (Although Goku did drop out of SS4 two times from memory.)
Saiyans coming together and facing their fears over a powerful freeza reminds of the trucker convoy and how so many more people got together to go against their government.
Ok so if we use the “canon” power scaling, the great ape form multiplies base power by x10. So any of the pretty color changes at that point from my pov says thats the Great ape additionally transforming. Again the ape being a base form multiplier, so x10 for the ape then an additional x50 for what presume to be a super sayian power up. So yeah the mere presence of a golden ape should have gotten the attention of say a Destroyer or maybe even the omni king if even just to see whats up. Its something id love to see in the newer series, imagine a great ape who went SS4 or even if while in Ultra Instinct Son Goku went Great Ape. The x10 on his current base form would rival the destroyers in their unlock form i feel.
7:20 the gravitational binding energy of the Earth is 1000X greater than the Moon's, also the Earth is 81.2 times as massive as the moon. a Sphere 1/4 of the radius has 1/64th the volume. The gravitational binding energy is proportional to the Square of the mass.
The Golden Oozaru was a wonderful idea for storytelling and answered a question involving the Super Saiyan transformation: what would happen if a Super Saiyan didn't have control of their rage?
I think it seems like that's been the point in the most recent arcs of the Super manga, is truly understand how ascend to the realm of God's as Saiyans. The god ki, the forms that came from God ki, and UI have never really been utilized by a mortal Saiyan without tails. The tails and emotion are the true source of a Saiyans power, and with their tail removed and not being able to transform into the Oozaru form, their bodies have no choice but to mutate in other matters based on such triggers to their sources of power (hints: Super Saiyan 1,2&3, GOD, Blue, and silver hair UI) UI is a Angel technique that Angels are built to utilize to the max potential because of their nature of tranquility and calmness. That is not the nature of a Saiyan and Goku is understanding that. Every transformation prior always were either triggered or fueled by a certain emotion that altered their personality in a way that always reminded us of a Saiyans true nature (aggression, confidence, wanting their opponent to be at their best so they can test their power against the best to be the best ect.) Even some of the transformations were illustrated with Oozaru and it's screams when they first transform into unknown territory like SSJ3, UI Sign, Gohan in ssj2, Goku super Saiyan on namek, Hell! Broly in the DBS Broly movie!! I mean it's written all over with it. Feels like the tail removal is a mutilation of the Saiyans and is not a optimal mutation. Getting their tails back, taking all their knowledge they have learned, and creating other forms of power while embracing the nature of a Saiyan will make them the most powerful beings In the multiverse. The best way to go about this is go into the SSJ4 route but call is something else most likely, like True SSJ Oozaru, mix it in with what Broly did in the movie being able to use great ape power in base form, and be able to combine that Saiyan Oozaru nature with all sources of God ki into their base forms to create that SSJ4 appearance plus their God Ki and true UI & Ultra ego shit to create the most optimal fighting form with defense, speed, and able to tap into their Saiyan emotions and pride to the fullest extent to go on the offensive, while also going down their own separate paths with ideologies to keep Goku and Vegeta different from one another. At the end of the day, they are still Saiyans, but the True Super Saiyan Gods 😉
Would have been nice if the Oozaru power could have been re - routed in the Ikari form like what we saw in Broly. I wish Bardock and his crew could have discovered how to do that in addition to learning ki control and how to read it at least 5 years before Frieza came to destroy planet Vegeta. Think how that could have changed the narrative of Dragon Ball as a whole if Bardock and his crew could have learn all of that and secretly trained saiyans to get a stronger base power.
They didn't even give trunks or goten a tail on the first place, he said he forgot the tails were ever even a thing. Its hard not to take that personally.
I like to think that the core of super saiyan is the golden oozaru as was implied here. As you said, Goku wasn't a violent person, he was caring and compassionate so when he transformed, he only tapped into a fraction of the real power. The super saiyan forms as they go up (1 2 and 3) were closing the gap between human and ape. Thats why the hair (and eyebrows) gets closer to the ape look as they go up in levels. The reason why such a legend was becoming common place in DBZ (okay it was for toy sales but bare with me) is because the majority of the saiyans were not violent savages. Even vegeta, being egotistical and prideful, is removed from being a primal person. Hell he controlled his great ape form. Going from base saiyan to golden oozaru is diving straight into the well, where as getting to baseline SS is a drastic fraction of the total power well. Gohan having innate rage inside him hit SS2 first because he was closer connected to his primal self than anyone else. This is just my headcannon but it gives each form a bit of understanding for me.
I personally think the transformations should have been: Great Ape/Oozaru, Golden Oozaru, then a Golden form of the Super saiyan 4; since it’s basically taking all the qualities of the great oozaru form and compacting it into a much smaller form. It also fits the Sun Wukong inspiration.
Late to the party here, but something crossed my mind. If you take the facts that golden Uzaru is the super saiyan of legend, super saiyan transformation is triggered by anger and a saiyan transformed into an ozaru goes berserk most of the time, than golden ozaru might just be an ozaru going super saiyan just like they doing it in regular form, thus giving the SS power multiplier on top of the 10x ozaru multiplier. AND that would imply that an ozaru could also go SS2, SS3, SSG and SSGSS. Think the blue absurd multiplier X10. Kaioken blue just barely surpasses it, and that just assuming that Ozaru can't go kaioken as well. Heck, maybe Goku's golden ozaru wasn't even basic SS, but 2 or 3 instead which would explain why he caught up Baby's power at that point.
When I saw the thumbnail saying true super saiyan, instantly something popped into my head, tssj, that’s the name, true super saiyan should be his final form, returning to his roots of power, i imagine it using the power of oozaru but not looking like ssj4 or being an oozaru, it’s gokus normal hair but golden, like ssg, it is so powerful even a 100% perfected ultra instinct would be out shined by it, it’s so strong not even mixing up every hypothetical possible like mui and ue on a potara fusion rival boosted ssj4 full power limit breaker kaioken 100x could outshine it. And the thing is, it makes it so that you can’t stack anything on it, because it’s permanent. And this is not a downside, not at all, it’s just that powerful, the only way to outshine it would be fusing with another true super saiyan, then and only then will the super saiyan of legend truly be born
Also to add onto this, I imagine that mastering it would evolve it and permantly make you a tssj2 not changing your hair but making you hugely more powerful, then tssj3, again no hair change, but the color goes to normal and it’s like how Vegeta imagined super saiyan.
Give it a few years, and we'll somehow get to a point where we have Perfected Ultra Instint x10 Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kaioken ×100 Super Monkey form
Goku and Piccolo got INSANELY lucky against Raditz. Between grabbing his tail, to them being able to boost the power level of their ki attacks, to Gohan having an extremely high battle power when enraged. If Raditz decided to go oozaru, he'd be at 15k battle power.
I was working on a fanfiction with my brother. We're doing like tribal Saiyans wearing fur of alien animals, armor and weapons made from bones, scales and misterious types of metals and crystals. They have clans and tribes. Use piercings and paint their bodies. Mighty warriors needs to prove their value by hunting powerful creatures like kaijus and they fight in arena. Every saiyan in this tribal Era have scars or just one arm lefting. They are built like Raditz with long hair but their bodies is just like Nappa or Broly. The history is basicaly saiyans fighting one against other and slowly learning how to built a society so they can raid others civilization and dominate the Tsufurujins what some of they calls "dwarfs". They don't use ki too often. Is more like a bunch of buff guys fighting like Kratos and Baldur. When they get pissed of the ki explodes and then they spit energy from their mouths or just run in a berserker rampage.
It’s possible that golden Ozaru is actually a multiplicative of Ozaru on top of SSJ3… so that would possibly close the gap just enough on top of a Zenkai or two to let Goku push baby back especially if Baby was caught off guard and frightened by a large opponent hitting him harder than he had counted on
I too appreciate the simplicity yet menace of the great ape forms. I hope they come full circle and present a new form, but since they have forms with god-like power now, I doubt it.
I stopped bothering with DB lore because it keeps being forgotten or retconned -_- Now it is how well the arcs are written these days and how to keep the fight scenes entertaining.
I think broly and kale are the saiyan of legend born every one thousand years because in the DBS manga when kale went crazy they said every one thousand years a demonic and crazed saiyan is born, it also says they go on a rampage until they implode and eventually die from their own power. Broly and kale didn't have their tails so maybe that is why they didnt turn into a golden great ape.
Golden oozaru is totally one of the Most Viable and Powerful forms cause if im Rather correct it is an Oozaru Base multiplier of 10x meanwhile adding 50x of the Oozaru base aswell easily bypassing the Super saiyan forms
Okay, am I crazy? The ORIGINAL teaser for the Broly movie... before they announced it was Broly..... didn't they show a Saiyan tail in it? It seems to have been completely wiped from TH-cam. I remember there being a Saiyan tail in the teaser.
Saiyan transformations mirror technological development. The OG Great Ape was like an early PC. Absolutely epic and mind blowing compared to the fist large commercial computers. Since that time everything has gotten smaller, more powerful, way faster and more efficient. Compare those early PCs (Great Apes) to anything cutting edge in use today (Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego) and it’s laughably underpowered…still important, still remember fondly, but a relic of ages past.
Except Ssj is not as powerful as Oozaru. Oozaru is just more sluggish but it's WAYYY more powerful. It's why Super Broly was allegedly able to keep up with Goku n Vegeta. Because he kept his tail and was able to harness the power of the Great Ape form while being normal
@@shirothr5384 Zenkai works from near death experience and full recovery. You don't get Zenkai mid fight. You have to be near death exhaustion or damage and then fully recover to get the Zenkai boost.
Broly's power is from having kept his tail and tapping into Oozaru. Goku says it in the movie
@@PermanentHigh That makes no sense. Broly was constantly getting stronger even before Ikari. Considering it's a 10 times boost after he already started pressing SSJ Vegeta and kept getting stronger from there, Ikari is not stronger than SSJ. It's a 10x boost while SSJ is 50. There's no comparison.
I'm no broly expert but I'm pretty sure brolys tail got cut off by paragus
Broly doesn't have a tail, there is a brief conversation between Paragus and Frieza about how Ikari allows Broly to gain the great ape power without the use of his tail (or transforming).
Always thought golden great ape was "the true power" of the super saiyan and the super saiyan transformations were just tapping into it. It made ss4 make sense in my mind with goku ascending to golden great ape and controlling the power and rage that could possibly go on to destroy the universe if left unchecked. That would have been a great way to wake up beerus and actually start the god arc.
A saiyan's true power lies in their tails not hair dyes
I couldn't have said it any better true saiyan might generate from their biology not mutation aka hair dyes lol
I thought it was in their tingly back?
@@SSJ4Scholar nah it’s in the writers
Love this joke, it's perfect!
@@ssj2sensui that literally is their biology. The Ozaru *is* a mutation.
This is why i like SSJ4 more than SSJ God.
"Return to monkey" would be a much better power step than God ki. It's my belief that SSJ4 is just the fully controlled form of SSJ monkey, SSJ grade 4 monkey, basically.
I believe that there would then be an SSJ2 and SSJ3 Monkey, probably named SSJ5 and SSJ6.
I do like Ultra Instinct though, and personally i wish that was a final technique taught by Roshi to Goku and Krillin.
Both SSJ God and SSB suck ass. The only good thing about super is Ultra Instinct because it makes goku a total bad ass.
Roshi the angel in training XDDD
@@nicardosaunders9525 i mean, he does use a version of Ultra Instinct in one of his fights. never had to be a God-Ki thing, could have just been a Kung-fu master technique like it usually is in the Fighting genre
Ultra instinct is a very good concept. Even more so because it has nothing to do with being a saiyan. Presumably anyone can reach it. Here is what is more intriguing to me though, what happens when you start combining ultra instinct with the saiyan transformations? I'm pretty sure this should be possible because from the look of it, it kinda looks like an upgraded God form for goku. So that should mean that he could do what he did with ssg and ssblue.
What pisses me off about the writing for dbz and super is that goku never fully masters his forms after the original super saiyan form. If I was him I would've trained every form like he trained super saiyan in the hyperbolic time chamber so that he could stay in those forms all the time with little to no stamina draw. Hell he could've done that the entire time he was farming. Just staying in ssblue. He should've worked on mastering ss2&3 atleast.
I always liked Super Saiyan 4 too. I had the same thoughts as you, that eventually if they kept training, they could achieve higher levels in the Super Ape Saiyan forms.
However, I always thought that Vegeta and Goku were gonna end up being gods in Dragon Ball, so UI being a god technique is unsurprising to me lol
Or maybe the legend of the super sayain was so unbelievable to sayains who didn't witness it that over the years the general consensus became one of believing that there was no way the power of a super sayain could be packed inside of a humanoid form. Also since its a transformation more powerful than regular Oozaru, and with Oozaru being the only transformation sayains knew of at the time, logic would dictate that you would have to first go Oozaru and then transform into the Legendary Super Sayain form.
That makes s surprising amount of sense.
Yeah
Eh, I'd say it's just because they associated their strongest form with being a lesser form of an even stronger form, because they didn't know what else it could have been. Sayians got stronger by turning into Great Apes, so they probably thought that an even stronger form than Great Ape would just have been another Great Ape form that would be different in some way, like being even bigger or something.
Im glad you mentioned universe 6 saiyans. They were the perfect way to bring the ozaru form back. Saiyans that never got eradicated, continued to live for battle, continued to have children that became more powerful each generation, and with each generation getting better and better at using the ozaru form to the point where maybe they could of had different variations of it. And then we could of had a big difference between both universes saiyans but nope they dont have tails and they looks different. How disappointing 😞
my headcanon for universe 6 sayians is that they aren't pure
they mixed with the tuffles instead of killing them
giving them better ki control and more youthful appearance and causing them to eventually lose thier tail via evolution many generations later
Could be an awesome way to introduce SSJ4 into the canon, have it be a variation of Oozaru from U6 Saiyans.
Too bad they look like 💩
I like it.
At least it would have explained SOMETHING...
they don't have tails, which is requirement to turn a Saiyan in an Ozaru.
I don't care what new God Forms they create, Golden Oozaru will always be one of my favourite Transformation's.
Then watch gt
@@adamfanning9412 you do realise that's the point right? other than media, you watch dbgt to know its existence
@@firdanharbima6997 factual Oozaru/Golden Oozaru/SSJ4 > Silly hair dyed colors anyday.
I love the Great Ape concept, and honestly, I'm glad that Super didn't touch it. They would have just mucked it up or diminished it in some fashion. By the Great Ape being left alone, it gets to keep its legacy. Remember Future Trunk's legacy of having gone to the past to save his future? Super destroyed that. I have no doubt something bad would have happened if they tried to use the Great Ape.
They technically brought it back with the broly rage form with the yellow eyes and being a link to the ape form and a little thing for the ssj4 fans
No you couldn't be more wrong by them not using it that is making it seem worthless and obsolete I want to see it come back but the form broly used in the movie was the great ape power up just without the transformation
Would love for them to incorporate it into the newer series. Like what they did in gt although not canon but including the great ape into super Saiyan form like ssj4 or into either Vegeta or Goku newer forms would be freaking awesome. Tapping into primal Saiyan force with a heightened sense of control and introducing new villains who hand them they ass to get them there
How in the hell did super ruin trunks legacy?
@@DrakusWolfChild maybe because it was vegito that saved his universe? I’m not sure cause In Z, gohan was the one who killed cell so trunks didn’t really save the day alone their either
I always liked how the Saiyans we're like Apes, I don't know if people get mad about mentioning the evolution theory, but if we are descendents of monkeys, I always thought it was kinda cool that humans in real life were similar in that aspect, also, I noticed that Dragon Ball Budokai Tenkaichi music in the background Saiyan Scholar, I just played that game two hours ago for old times sake.
@Justin Arzola Huh, I guess I should've figured that out myself, but thanks for info, I had no idea!
Humans arent descendants of monkeys. Get your biological history right.
We are not descendants of monkeys. We are descendants of the ancestors of monkeys.
we did not descend from monkeys, we had a similar ancestor we both evolved from
@@hughhazim7195
So said the guy
RIGHT ABOVE YOU
I miss the saiyan tails, it made them unique, and visible different from a normal human. Even back in OG Dragon Ball, you could tell that Goku was different, just wasn’t sure how. It’s a shame that Toriyama hated drawing them, and got rid of them at the first chance he got.
Same. It makes me even more mad when you consider that both Frieza and Cell had tails, too. If it bothered him that bad, he should have just had the tail wrapped around them like furry belts. He did it with Raditz, Vegeta, Nappa, etc. Could have just left it out of the way and easy to draw. Just a dark "rope" around their waist. *sigh*
Goku’s Golden Oozaru transformation is one of the most badass scenes in GT.
In Dragon Ball.
@@SSJ4Scholar relative.
Absolute truth
I feel you on this. I always felt like Golden Oozaru was a multiplier in the thousands, cause there was absolutely no way it was only slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 3
@jonnylawless6797 I think it's a 4k multiplier to start with. When he first transforms with the golden aura, it has the bio electricity, so to me, he's using his full SSJ power, which is SS3. Wouldn't make sense to not use SS3s power.
Imo 10 times boost in strength is just the tip of the iceberg, it increases in weight to the sum of being definitely a few thousand kg so i like to think its a ten times boost in strength to weight ratio, not tryna deep it out tho
trades speed away too, if not, vegeta's tail would not have been cut
You might be onto something becasue Gorillas have 10x muscle fiber density to humans...so maybe that is what Toriyama intended
Maybe that's one of the reasons saiyans eat a lot
Guys, it's ten times the _Ki._
I always loved the concept of the Golden Great Ape. Basically a Super Saiyan Great Ape. Makes sense to me. SSJ4 being the more refined version itself. No more golden anything. Like both SSJ and Great Ape both were it's own thing to work together to be the true legendary Super Saiyan. That said, I never bought in the 500x. At the lowest I felt if would be a SSJ3 times the 10x boost. So 4,000x. But there could always be an unknown factor of the Great Ape itself being more than 10x while SSJ and then the SSJ4 being far refined. Me personally I feel like a 50x increase over SSJ2 is good. So an overall of 10,000x
I'd also like to point out the roars we heard during Goku's Ultra Instinct transformation. This tells us that Oozaru may still be in there, and that there may be a link between Ultra instinct and Oozaru's "instinct" to destroy.
Then you remember that all angels have ultra instinct
And that anyone can actually learn to use it e.g beerus even if he hasnt finished mastering it
Yeah bro there’s no link between ui and sayian blood
Yeah bro there’s no link between ui and sayian blood
A bit of a stretch there
whis did recently say to master ui goku needs to go back to his sayain roots 🧱
If you really think about it, the Oozaru form is also the most important form because it set up the idea of Sayian bodies being able to undergo changes when influenced by different kinds of energy. Blutz waves just became Ki for Super Sayian, God Ki for Super Sayian God, and the Spirit Bomb for Ultra Instinct.
BLUTZ WAVES FOR SUPER SAIYAJIN?
BLUTZ WAVES FOR OZARU
S-CELLS FOR SSJ
FAKE GOD KI FOR SSJG
REAL GOD KI FOR MNG
The Spirit bomb didn't Goku Ultra Instinct, it was pretty much a battery for him to regain his strength
Spirit bomb has nothing to do with ultra instinct
@@enmadaniaisabel1552 sorry a year late but whats mng?
@@FumanyuX yeah it's near death experiences with god ki imo
Scouters should've measured the ratio between the target's power level vs your own. Then we could've inferred our own power levels from those ratios over the series in a way that wouldn't have the insane power creep Dragonball Z ended up having.
I have a theory that the power levels are actually much more closer than we see them as. We’re relying on alien numbers and tech (a scouter) which wouldn’t translate to earth numbers. So if Goku was actually over 9,000 (dub) then who’s to say that’s not a 9 on our scale? If vegeta at the time was (for simplicity) at a PL of 9,500 then it could be simplified to 9.5 for us and that .5 would be significant enough to overpower the Z Fighters. So essentially who’s to say SSJ3 isn’t just a PL of ~900 or so? To me this gives power levels an actual chance.
@@RookieMistakeYT Very cool way of viewing this. You could go even further to say that maybe power levels may have been meant to be viewed the same way the Japanese Yen currency is in relation to the US dollar, similar to how in Pokemon 10 year olds clearly arent actually spending $200+ on each pokeball they buy and instead it's more like $2+.
@@RookieMistakeYT Average (non Ki using) Humans have *_5._*
Think of the Saiyans transforming into the Great Ape and all collectively firing full power Mouth beams at the Death Ball, sending it back and towards Frieza. With their collective power, Im sure they could have eradicated Frieza and his Army with a combined blast.
I'm afraid Freeza would still win since that's the point of his character but it would be dope to see for sure
No
Yeah if the human population can help make a spirit bomb big enough to beat buu this probably could've worked for the sayians since we can assume they're all much stronger than humans on default and are getting a 10 times boost and Frieza was only in his base state
Alas, this was utterly impossible for the saiyan race. They feared people like dodoria, whom was able do destroy their elite warriors with ease. Now on said planet, a lot of saiyans were civilians or lower class warriors. The simple multiplier making them 10x stronger doesn't do much on Radditz lvl warriors, simply because base frieza sitting in his throne has already gotten a power lvl that is atleast 20x that of a great ape Saiyan. Due to dragonball logic saying you can shrug of an opponents attack if you are 2x stronger... well let's just say that would not go well for the saiyan race😂 but let that sink in for a moment, frieza formed an energy ball that was the size of a moon🤣 how high do you think he raised his power lvl to do that? (I think it was at the very least 500k) now while they may deflect that ball, frieza has 3 transformations and can easily triple his power lvl😅 so he'd end up solo murdering the entire race, just having to do a bunch of grunt work. Simply cause they couldn't damage him, keep up with his speed and he could blow up the planet whenever since "he can breathe in space"😂
@@onemicyeehaw1583 there wasnt that much sayains tho only like 700
The Earth's area in total is about 13.5x larger than the Moon. The Earth's land area is almost 4x larger than the total area of the moon. In terms of mass which is what you want to look at. The Earth is about 81x more massive than the moon. So ~450x81=36,450. Of course the simple explanation is AT just pulled number out of his ass as he went along that seemed reasonable and made for a good story. So scaling only works only so much before it breaks down. If AT wanted to make power levels make sense Goku wouldn't have jumped from being less than 1K during his fight w/ Raditz to over 8/9K after 1 year training with King Kai. As well as 6 days of training making him increase his power over 10x by the time he reached Namek. Or more than 33x after his fight with Ginyu to face off against Freeza. None of these huge increases make rational sense except for that AT wanted to use big numbers as a shock factor for his story telling. Nothing more and nothing less. I mean we are talking about the author who forgot SSJ2 even existed.
You forget that King Kai is otherworldly and Goku pretty much boosted in his Gravity Chamber lobby with Zenkai boosts by spamming Senzu beans
My guy I think you’re forgetting that this is the North Kai, deities that govern entire worlds, & his world has 10x Earth gravity as is. & I don’t know if you understand how gravity & exercise works
The problem is that he was winging it, he didn't scale the powers because he had no plan for how the story would progress. He just needed each power up to bridge the gap between the characters and a given villain. They need to be only so much more powerful than their previous power up.
And Earth is about 50 times more voluminous than the moon.
I think of power level not as a final number but as a dot product representative of a power matrix applied to the various vectors of fighting ability, muscle efficiency, speed, etc. so raising your power level would have different impacts on battle presence in various factors. And applying a multiplier to your power level would have a much higher multiplier on battle PRESENCE due to the constant being applied across the entire matrix, which is then applied to each ability vector
Never thought about it that way. A dot product. Rofl.
Ki is just one modifier for all the other data points, and anything that effects Ki is going to affect everything else with it.
But the specifics of certain forms (SSJ3 decreases agility and speed while increasing strength, Great Ape does the same but also dramatically increases mass) will change the relationships between those data points.
Here's how I see it, Golden Great Apes multiplier started around 50x10 (500x) but as it risen, it went 100x10 (1000x) than at maximus 400x10 (4000x). To put it bluntly, Great Ape Goku was channeling the power of all SSJ transformation until it transformed into SSJ4, which has much higher multiplier than GGA at max power.
I have always thought that the Golden Ozaru was the beta god form. This is because Super Saiyan 4 form takes the Golden Ape and somehow increases it or makes it more tame-able. Giving Super Saiyan 4 a very inconsistent power level.
Oozaru looks like a fusion of Kong and Godzilla. The Godzilla-like face shape and the Ki blast from the mouth similar to the atomic breath. Maybe Godzilla's tail resulted in the fusion having a monkey tail.
Good job making such in depth analysis of power levels
The SSJ transformations makes you wonder how Goku would've acted if he never got his SSJ mastered into a calm state. His other transformations in Z and GT did alter his personality and perhaps rushing into those transformed states could've made Goku more violent. Just a speculation of course but it could've been interesting to see if he would've changed.
I still like to think the Oozaru golden great ape was still the true super Saiyan Vegeta spoke of. And my only question is: How did they obtain it without a tail as seen with vision?
Also the super Saiyan was just lazy manga artists who didn't want to color in gokus hair and eyes anymore.
Maybe Super Saiyan was a being different than regular Saiyans?
You called that blonde hair form "Super Saiyan" because no-one knew what a Super Saiyan was. It could've just been an evolution.
Whilst the real Super Saiyan was genetically much stronger and more brutal than a regular saiyan due to genetic mutations.
Give akira toriyama some slack
@@AlexanderTheGreatMan thats pretty much the idea of Broly so you have a good point
@@playerreset3070 no
Ive wondered the same thing. If only we knew the true multipier of golden oozaru I feel like people always underrate it's true power and equivalenty underate ssj4 even farther. Very well said man.
It's irrelevant to current dragon ball, toriyama had nothing to do with gt, they aren't his ideas, if golden oozaru ever comes back it'll be a different multiplier anyway
Thanks Saiyan Scholar for Bringing this up Again 🐉👊💥
Facts. I hate how shrimpy the U6 saiyans look. Cabba should be shredded lmao.
That’s why SSJ4 is still iconic. It brought back the importance and power of the Great Ape/Ozaru form. That’s what SSJ should’ve been. The humanoid SSJ should’ve been the final step
Did you know that Goku is stronger than Kakarot?
But more importantly, General Rildo saved the Black Star Dragon Ball Saga by being a real CHAD but people ignore him and only use him as a benchmark. How disappointing nobody factors in his CHADNESS, strategic ways to defeat the enemies, rewards good soldiers with shiny medals, has a Rocket Punch which would have a build-in command grab if Xenoverse and Fighters had him AND one of his forms has a drill. You can't tell me that's not a good character.
#Justice4Rildo #RejectCauliflaEmbraceRildo
I'm gonna put all these comments in the Rilldo Video lol
@@SSJ4Scholar Then I should add more trivia not mentioned in future videos before it comes out. I think I repeated the same thing over and over again.
Chad Rildo is one of the best villains of all time
In my opinion both Goku's ssj and Gohan Ssj2 transformations were so well build up it was amazing. The writting for both transformations was beyond anything else in DB and DBZ.
Early!! To be honest i always wanted to see two great apes do battle
Yes THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO!!
To be fair the golden ozaroo was the actual legendary super Saiyan
Thank you! I’m glad I’m not only one who with this viewpoint 🤗
Hey Saiyan Scholar I just wanted to say that you open my eyes on how powerful the GT cast actually is and how much passion was put in the show than creator of super ever has. If you are reading this I wish to give my theory I want to share in case you want to do a continuation of this video.
Did you ever wondered why anyone who uses super Saiyan four brings the user to their prime? How Goku as a kid was able to go his adult form and vegeta growing back his original hairstyle? It’s simple actually: the oozaru. When people like vegeta or kid Gohan from dragon ball did the transformation they were always the about the same size no matter the age. We even see this in GT with Baby and Goku who were both the same size despite having drastically different physical age. And super Sayian four is supposed to have the full mastered potential of the oozaru and the super saiyan legend in humanoid form. This means that the oozaru has the ability to bring users to their physical peak. So if someone like Paragus wish to transform into the mighty oozaru it’s likely that the form would just as healthy as any other oozaru with no gray hairs or wrinkles along his monkey face. This is my personal theory and shows how underrated the Power of the ‘useless’ forms is (I’m a huge fan of Ultra Super saiyan than regular Super Saiyan myself.)
Me too, I love ussj. The grades 2 and 3
@Wai shis Ocsol I know that I but I like it regardless
Gt was a cash grab at the time of it being created by the company...Super came into being because Toriyama was so pissed off and disgusted at the live action movie and that they wouldn't let him help them, that he felt compelled to come back for fans after that pos movie.
@@andthen17 Super came because they wanted to make more money off the success of the resurrection F movie. Heck they were released in the Same year.
Everything that’s not toriyama’s work is a cash grab. Do you not get Funimation.
The tail has always been important towards a Saiyan's power.. Both Oozaru and Great Ape has always been a fond favorite of mine.. Plus Ikari form has something hidden but I've never ever forgotten about it and I'd never ignored it.. that is always impactful and prideful and Astonishing too.. Full Moon and transformation is good enough for me..
I was always on the impression that monkey form was at a minimum 10x but could be more depending on the vitality and tail training of the individual. The ssj also 50x at least but could be more depending on mastery of the form.
Vegeta was the strongest saiyan in history, he still only has a 10x boost in oozaru, it was never mentioned that your strength or training could change it, saiyans didn't train they just went to battle.
@@adamfanning9412 it’s true that it was never stated that. Let’s look at the fight Goku vs Frieza. Goku has no power or strength after the spirit bomb to the point where he needed help to stand. Now Frieza was using 50% when he got hit by the bomb. After he was still able to move and fire a death beam and still had more untapped power. Let’s say Goku was at 1% power after that bomb. How can he get almost twice as strong as 100% Frieza? Rage boost can only give so much. Also if we go based on what has been told in the manga or anime, the golden Oozaru is the true legendary power not normal ssj. Also it was stated that the tail is the source of the saiyans power yet Goten and Trunks never had one. We can’t just go base on what was stated and ignore evidence when they show up. Or we can also change ssj3 and call it ssj2 because Tori forgot about ssj2 and called that one ascended ssj.
I seriously loved gt's concept of having the tail being important, i hope, they did or will do something with it
The Great Ape form is underrated
Very underrated, always preferred this and SSJ4.
So I have a theory maybe since sssj was mix with great ape it actually gave it additional wavelength which caused the great ape form to get stronger then before. Plus the emotional state of rage which keep causing the golden ape form to get stronger by constant rage boost mix with ssj wavelengths amplifying it constantly. So from my understanding golden great ape was literally a berserker form with over flowing power constantly being amplified. Until the user gets control of his senses well truthfully speaking this form is definitely the pinnacle of sayain evolution.
Though I have a theory that ssj4 and great ape of mostly posted to be a mixture of primal bussing power and the quality of endurance which tanks a lot of hits but keeps growing stronger. It’s really is the best form for a sayain, frieza was right it’s time to return back to monkey 🙈.
I always though ssj4 was awesome because it was like taking that ape form and energy and condensing it the red hair was like showing closer to the ape form than the human form
Good video, old school rock was the best
Frieza absolutely stomps in every single circumstance except for the moment he destroys planet vegeta cuz Frieza stays in his first form and launches his attack at 500K if all the saiyans fought back in base form they'd get tired and die with a second shot but if even just the elites went into their Oozaru state it's definitly possible.
Nappa was considered an elite and his PL was 4000, let's say, king Vegeta is as strong as Bardock at 10,000, Bardock is stated to be at 10,000 so if king Vegeta and Bardock went into their Oozaru states their combined power level would be at 200,000 to absolutely stomp Frieza's first form and maybe kill him they need to be 2.25x stronger than him so the final Saiyan blast needs to be at 1.2 million. If the average high-class Saiyan who can control their Oozaru form is at say 4000 for simplicity sake then the power they need to make up would be 1,000,000 if average elites go Oozaru they'd be at 40,000 which means that King Vegeta + Bardock + 25 average Saiyan elites at Nappa's level (Which there are likely to be far stronger elites than Nappa among the Saiyans) all multiplied by the power of the Oozaru would be more than enough to get rid of Frieza' Supernova and attack him with more than twice the power he has in his 1st form and if all the other low-class Saiyans joined without looking at the moon and fired too the difference would be even greater. Sure not much considering their low power levels and lack of the Oozaru transformation since they can't control it but when you're talking about an entire race that's a lot of power.
You do know Nappa's power level was closer to 10,000 when he got to Earth right?
@@Karlwasright idk some sources say he's at 4K and others say he's at 6K so I just took the lowest to make my point just in case. I even ussumed King Vegeta to be at Bardock's level which I'm pretty sure is lowballing it since he's most definitely stronger than him.
Saiyan Scholar I literally was thinkin this morning bout The Great Apes in Dragonball wonderin if vegeta would ever get his tail back and wondered if u would ever make a video bout the Apes. Thank u soooo much. U've answered my prayer's
Fun fact: "oozaru" or in Japanese "大猿" literally just means "big ape".
Fun fact: "chat" or in french "chat" literally just means "cat"
Fire video lol agree on all points. Oozaru was definitely a missed opportunity.
We need Ultra Instinct Great Ape and Ultra Ego Great Ape
Saiyans are the best sad that all of them well died one of the coolest transformations has to be the grate ape form cool video man
See if always found general power levels abit overplayed. I mean the importance of them by the fan base. A good example would be swoll Trunks. Arguably has a higher power level but his speed is affected so much by his increase in strength and muscle mass that he can't use that higher power level. Or in the opposite way, Gregory on King kias planets. Has a pitiful power level but is super fast so goju can't touch him. "But Powwerrrr leveeel!" People shout like its the only thing important in the show. Power levels were just a convenient way of giving a ruff guide of where a character was in relation to another but wasn't totally accurate within universe let alone in general. The numbers have been re worked so many times over the years depending on the source even when all the sources you check are "official." Including different versions or reprints of the orginal manga and the anime in Japanese and in English. Power scaling dosnt matter from one part of the series to another as long as it makes sense within each part when it is relevant. I always just thought the multiplier changes at different points in the story anyway, which would make sense. As forms are attained, improved and perfected, just like a technique, they become better. The multiplier applied when Goku first attains super sayian could be different to the multiplier once he has learned to control the form better, that make alot more sense that just having a flat multiplier but because fans get all up in there own arse about power levels and there need to be static and perfectly accurate the creators have bent over to try and provide... it make sense in the real world you perform differently in a sport or at the gym day to day based on many factors.
i think when broly went super saiyan that was the closest representation we'll get to "the legendary super saiyan" form cause broly was able to manifest the power of the oozaru form without transforming due to not having the tail and then being driven to super saiyan while still in that form made him stronger than super saiyan blue goku and vegeta, as well as golden frieza. it took them fusing into gogeta and turning super saiyan blue to overpower him and only after broly had already been fighting for over an hour accounting for the 2 failed fusions.
I have a theory regarding the Super Saiyan transformation.
So, one of the most defining traits of Saiyans was the fact that they can turn into giant apes, but due to the loss of control and the sheer size they only whip out Monkey Mode when absolutely necessary.
I have a feeling that Super Saiyan, biologically, is meant to be a tool for conquering the Ozaru form so as to acquire a more efficient form: SSJ4.
Because Super Saiyan, fundamentally, shouldn't be as simple as it is and be exclusive to Saiyans.
Why do the Saiyans get the ability to activate a powerup with the only visual change being their hairdo? Why can't humans access a similar form? What makes Super Saiyan so special that only Saiyans can do it?
I do not see any logical explanation other than Super Saiyan being the true raw power of the Ozaru, without the necessary biological adaptations needed to actually use it efficiently.
It's a cartoon, because toriyama said so, stop over analysing, ssj4 dosent exist anymore
@@adamfanning9412 sdbh with ssj4 broly says hello
@@firdanharbima6997 dragon ball hero's isn't cannon? There's loads of weird shit in it
@@adamfanning9412 not total but ok
The term "Great Ape" when they have giant tails is hilarious.
Fr I always wondered
People still don't understand the title. Lol.
One of the best moments to have the Oozaru in Super was in the Zeno expo because his opponent kept getting bigger
A good question is prior to the genocide who was the strongest saiyan and was their power level? Excluding Broly. Because I thought Frieza was power level was 1,000,000 so around 10 R we Elite class Great Apes could beat or at least successfully rebel and ward off frieza
That's why Frieza feared them and killed them all.
Its not like they can fuse their it power levels it would be 10 100k power so it means that frieza could tank them all as long as a technique that perfectly fuses power levels existed
Reading that title, I went "even if you have the most basic understanding of dragon ball, you would know automatically that putting saiyan/super/ultra in front of it is better than the other option, so the question doesn't even need a video to answer it"
@Saiyan Scholar,
I can see the gold ape as 500 times, if it's a Ssj1 Great Ape.
If it's a Ssj2 ape however.....
Theres only 1 ssj ape
SS2 Oozaru is SS4...
Well i got confused. Ssj4 should just be call Ssj4
19:30 I like to imagine what happened in dbm universe 3 where bardock convinces the Saiyans and gives them more time. Then uses broly and all the Saiyans to kill freeza and his family
Ain’t the Oozaru and Great ape the same thing 💀🤷♂️
Lmao fr
Been watching u since I was 11 bro, keep up the work love ya
👍👍👍
It's not an ape. It's a monkey.
Overall, an amazing video! I didn't know a good bit about the Oozaru form, thank you for opening my eyes! Your choice in music is great as well. I was wondering, what is the music from the start of the downfall section of the video? It sounds really good.
Question why do you keep saying ozaru is stronger than the great ape when they in fact the same thing lol
I was about to say the same thing
Because it's a joke.
I realized that you’re pretty hypocritical when it comes to power ups. You were just talking about how you missed how much more reasonable the power boosts were back then. With the oozaru only being x10 and not times a million bajillion. But then you praise the golden oozaru for being times a million bajillion cajillion.
Same thing in general when it comes to scaling GT. You’re so proud of and praise the random strength they gain sometimes and ridiculous scaling up it has. But at the same time, you talk about how much you hate that type of stuff in any other series.
you know, i would say doesn't all of Super's scaling apply to GT, but: despite what you've said in a previous video, i think Super is leading to a new canon ending. 2 new canon endings, because the Manga and Anime are separate canons. different timelines too. a Z to GT timeline, a Super timeline, and a future Trunks- oh, wait. in fact Super's Future Trunks is different from Z's Future Trunks too. so there are 2 apocalypse timelines too. 5 timelines total? i think so.
this is almost as convoluted and hard to understand as Ben 10. i mean, in all the ways that matter: Omniverse is a reboot, but somehow isn't. and there's this entity called "Prime Ben". Anur Vladius is somehow both canon and pure fanfic. shit's wild
Am I the only one who have forgotten most of what happened in DB but still super interested in this type of videos
1:36 You caught me off guard😂😂😂😂
I always saw it more of a larger energy well and better energy manipulation. They seemingly had infinite energy from the moon in the few fights Great Apes had. In a period one Kamehameha was draining, Great Ape Goku shot energy indiscriminately. Great Apes were the current maximum with perfect energy mastery combined with instincts and higher hearing and such, throw Super Saiyan on top it will be much better given energy wells and ki manipulation.
So with that in mind I saw Goku and Baby's Golden Oozaru as a SS3 Great Ape. 400 x 10 = 4000 minimum growing strength the more Blutz waves there are. Again, with seemingly endless energy the power level seems much higher than it is as emotions empower a Saiyan many times over whatever transformation they have, and Baby and Goku were really getting pissed off at each other. Like if a cyborg android having infinite energy even being weaker could seemingly be stronger because their power doesn't wane and they can charge energy with time to over power their opponent. It took two titans of power to wear each other down, and even then neither Goku or Baby dropped out of their transformations. (Although Goku did drop out of SS4 two times from memory.)
Saiyans coming together and facing their fears over a powerful freeza reminds of the trucker convoy and how so many more people got together to go against their government.
Ok so if we use the “canon” power scaling, the great ape form multiplies base power by x10. So any of the pretty color changes at that point from my pov says thats the Great ape additionally transforming. Again the ape being a base form multiplier, so x10 for the ape then an additional x50 for what presume to be a super sayian power up. So yeah the mere presence of a golden ape should have gotten the attention of say a Destroyer or maybe even the omni king if even just to see whats up. Its something id love to see in the newer series, imagine a great ape who went SS4 or even if while in Ultra Instinct Son Goku went Great Ape. The x10 on his current base form would rival the destroyers in their unlock form i feel.
7:20 the gravitational binding energy of the Earth is 1000X greater than the Moon's, also the Earth is 81.2 times as massive as the moon. a Sphere 1/4 of the radius has 1/64th the volume.
The gravitational binding energy is proportional to the Square of the mass.
The Golden Oozaru was a wonderful idea for storytelling and answered a question involving the Super Saiyan transformation: what would happen if a Super Saiyan didn't have control of their rage?
The oozaru is one of the greatest gifts a saiyan has at their birth, just imagine a super Saiyan blue kaioken x20 great ape
I think it seems like that's been the point in the most recent arcs of the Super manga, is truly understand how ascend to the realm of God's as Saiyans. The god ki, the forms that came from God ki, and UI have never really been utilized by a mortal Saiyan without tails. The tails and emotion are the true source of a Saiyans power, and with their tail removed and not being able to transform into the Oozaru form, their bodies have no choice but to mutate in other matters based on such triggers to their sources of power (hints: Super Saiyan 1,2&3, GOD, Blue, and silver hair UI)
UI is a Angel technique that Angels are built to utilize to the max potential because of their nature of tranquility and calmness. That is not the nature of a Saiyan and Goku is understanding that. Every transformation prior always were either triggered or fueled by a certain emotion that altered their personality in a way that always reminded us of a Saiyans true nature (aggression, confidence, wanting their opponent to be at their best so they can test their power against the best to be the best ect.) Even some of the transformations were illustrated with Oozaru and it's screams when they first transform into unknown territory like SSJ3, UI Sign, Gohan in ssj2, Goku super Saiyan on namek, Hell! Broly in the DBS Broly movie!! I mean it's written all over with it.
Feels like the tail removal is a mutilation of the Saiyans and is not a optimal mutation. Getting their tails back, taking all their knowledge they have learned, and creating other forms of power while embracing the nature of a Saiyan will make them the most powerful beings In the multiverse.
The best way to go about this is go into the SSJ4 route but call is something else most likely, like True SSJ Oozaru, mix it in with what Broly did in the movie being able to use great ape power in base form, and be able to combine that Saiyan Oozaru nature with all sources of God ki into their base forms to create that SSJ4 appearance plus their God Ki and true UI & Ultra ego shit to create the most optimal fighting form with defense, speed, and able to tap into their Saiyan emotions and pride to the fullest extent to go on the offensive, while also going down their own separate paths with ideologies to keep Goku and Vegeta different from one another. At the end of the day, they are still Saiyans, but the True Super Saiyan Gods 😉
Would have been nice if the Oozaru power could have been re - routed in the Ikari form like what we saw in Broly. I wish Bardock and his crew could have discovered how to do that in addition to learning ki control and how to read it at least 5 years before Frieza came to destroy planet Vegeta. Think how that could have changed the narrative of Dragon Ball as a whole if Bardock and his crew could have learn all of that and secretly trained saiyans to get a stronger base power.
They didn't even give trunks or goten a tail on the first place, he said he forgot the tails were ever even a thing. Its hard not to take that personally.
I like to think that the core of super saiyan is the golden oozaru as was implied here. As you said, Goku wasn't a violent person, he was caring and compassionate so when he transformed, he only tapped into a fraction of the real power. The super saiyan forms as they go up (1 2 and 3) were closing the gap between human and ape. Thats why the hair (and eyebrows) gets closer to the ape look as they go up in levels.
The reason why such a legend was becoming common place in DBZ (okay it was for toy sales but bare with me) is because the majority of the saiyans were not violent savages. Even vegeta, being egotistical and prideful, is removed from being a primal person. Hell he controlled his great ape form. Going from base saiyan to golden oozaru is diving straight into the well, where as getting to baseline SS is a drastic fraction of the total power well. Gohan having innate rage inside him hit SS2 first because he was closer connected to his primal self than anyone else.
This is just my headcannon but it gives each form a bit of understanding for me.
Wait...im confused...is the Great Ape and Oozaru two different things? Or are you just interchanging them so it doesnt sound repetitive?
I personally think the transformations should have been: Great Ape/Oozaru, Golden Oozaru, then a Golden form of the Super saiyan 4; since it’s basically taking all the qualities of the great oozaru form and compacting it into a much smaller form.
It also fits the Sun Wukong inspiration.
I love the tail and the transformation its cool thanks for the video dragon ball is the best
Late to the party here, but something crossed my mind. If you take the facts that golden Uzaru is the super saiyan of legend, super saiyan transformation is triggered by anger and a saiyan transformed into an ozaru goes berserk most of the time, than golden ozaru might just be an ozaru going super saiyan just like they doing it in regular form, thus giving the SS power multiplier on top of the 10x ozaru multiplier. AND that would imply that an ozaru could also go SS2, SS3, SSG and SSGSS. Think the blue absurd multiplier X10. Kaioken blue just barely surpasses it, and that just assuming that Ozaru can't go kaioken as well. Heck, maybe Goku's golden ozaru wasn't even basic SS, but 2 or 3 instead which would explain why he caught up Baby's power at that point.
When I saw the thumbnail saying true super saiyan, instantly something popped into my head, tssj, that’s the name, true super saiyan should be his final form, returning to his roots of power, i imagine it using the power of oozaru but not looking like ssj4 or being an oozaru, it’s gokus normal hair but golden, like ssg, it is so powerful even a 100% perfected ultra instinct would be out shined by it, it’s so strong not even mixing up every hypothetical possible like mui and ue on a potara fusion rival boosted ssj4 full power limit breaker kaioken 100x could outshine it. And the thing is, it makes it so that you can’t stack anything on it, because it’s permanent. And this is not a downside, not at all, it’s just that powerful, the only way to outshine it would be fusing with another true super saiyan, then and only then will the super saiyan of legend truly be born
Also to add onto this, I imagine that mastering it would evolve it and permantly make you a tssj2 not changing your hair but making you hugely more powerful, then tssj3, again no hair change, but the color goes to normal and it’s like how Vegeta imagined super saiyan.
I can’t believe I’ve watched this whole video, bro you can make anything more interesting!!
Trying to fight a super saiyan is like trying to fight a steam roller with your hands tied
~krillin
Give it a few years, and we'll somehow get to a point where we have Perfected Ultra Instint x10 Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kaioken ×100 Super Monkey form
Goku and Piccolo got INSANELY lucky against Raditz. Between grabbing his tail, to them being able to boost the power level of their ki attacks, to Gohan having an extremely high battle power when enraged. If Raditz decided to go oozaru, he'd be at 15k battle power.
I started watching dragon ball z because i was hyped to see the great ape stuff blow up, then super Saiyan happened...
I was working on a fanfiction with my brother. We're doing like tribal Saiyans wearing fur of alien animals, armor and weapons made from bones, scales and misterious types of metals and crystals. They have clans and tribes. Use piercings and paint their bodies. Mighty warriors needs to prove their value by hunting powerful creatures like kaijus and they fight in arena. Every saiyan in this tribal Era have scars or just one arm lefting. They are built like Raditz with long hair but their bodies is just like Nappa or Broly.
The history is basicaly saiyans fighting one against other and slowly learning how to built a society so they can raid others civilization and dominate the Tsufurujins what some of they calls "dwarfs". They don't use ki too often. Is more like a bunch of buff guys fighting like Kratos and Baldur. When they get pissed of the ki explodes and then they spit energy from their mouths or just run in a berserker rampage.
That thumbnail gives off a vibe
It’s possible that golden Ozaru is actually a multiplicative of Ozaru on top of SSJ3… so that would possibly close the gap just enough on top of a Zenkai or two to let Goku push baby back especially if Baby was caught off guard and frightened by a large opponent hitting him harder than he had counted on
As a kid I thought Goku maintained his normal form when turning into a super Saiyan was because he didn't have a tail.
I'm not sure but I think this could be like an alternative for Ultra Instinct, detached consciousness and all.
i know its kinda unrleated but
can we appreciate how strong the Tuffels where for a bunch of nerd that the Saiyans needed the full moon to win
I too appreciate the simplicity yet menace of the great ape forms. I hope they come full circle and present a new form, but since they have forms with god-like power now, I doubt it.
I stopped bothering with DB lore because it keeps being forgotten or retconned -_- Now it is how well the arcs are written these days and how to keep the fight scenes entertaining.
I think broly and kale are the saiyan of legend born every one thousand years because in the DBS manga when kale went crazy they said every one thousand years a demonic and crazed saiyan is born, it also says they go on a rampage until they implode and eventually die from their own power. Broly and kale didn't have their tails so maybe that is why they didnt turn into a golden great ape.
Broly had a tail
@@lamarcusmassey2740 had
Golden oozaru is totally one of the Most Viable and Powerful forms cause if im Rather correct it is an Oozaru Base multiplier of 10x meanwhile adding 50x of the Oozaru base aswell easily bypassing the Super saiyan forms
Okay, am I crazy? The ORIGINAL teaser for the Broly movie... before they announced it was Broly..... didn't they show a Saiyan tail in it? It seems to have been completely wiped from TH-cam. I remember there being a Saiyan tail in the teaser.