Faculty dissatisfaction and the degradation of quality in higher education are related to the same root problem: the unchecked growth of administrative power.
That differential can be huge! It's worth talking about these differences in salary to allow folks to make informed choices. Thanks for your willingness to be honest here!
You both covered all the points. Good tip to leave anytime. I usually think I will start to apply and look for other types of jobs when I finish the semester etc. Industry is not going to wait for semester's end.
I worked at a teaching university for 12 years. I was not being very productive in research, but I remained very hands-on (I was in engineering field). Without a strong research portfolio, I realized my mobility was very low because I applied for a few positions in academia and got zero responses. That scared me and upset me a lot. I had just turned 40, if I did not move out of academia, the chance would be that I would stick to the same job for the rest of my life. Because I was hands-on, it was not hard for me to find a job in industry. Other factors that motivated me was - extreeeeemely slow growth in compensation - was tired of dealing with some difficult students
I love working in academic. However, it frustrates me to have. to do all this administrative and pastoral care when I have no experience doing it and no training available. and I have to do it and many times I'm unaware that I'm doing it incorrectly or not meeting the needs of the students. The university, who has not trained me, will penalize me for a complaint about something that I wasn't trained for. So academic stuff are peeved. newbie professors leave the system because of its failure to provide a nurturing and supportive environment. So, before you can do the things, they need you to do to make their students who are paying them comfortable. You must be prepped. Lawyers prep for their cases professors do not. We are just thrown into the deep mire.
I hear you on this, @kalenagy! Folks can get asked for too much, and feel like they have no other options outside of academia. But you absolutely have a choice in where you want to spend your time and energy. Sending you strength in wrangling with these various challenges in the meantime.
I'm in academia (ass. prof), and there was something crucial missing from this conversation. My main psychological hurdle is that the system I am part of is no longer subservient to truth. Instead it's all about social credit. Sounds vague, but it matters.
Being in the industry for 6 years now, may I also share: what I miss from academia - omg, teaching universities offer unbelievable work life balance, now I work at least 20 hours more than I used to weekly - winter and summer breaks were so good for me to recover - I rarely worried about my job security, but now I feel I was being native - I had much more freedom to do what I wanted to do or stop doing what I did not want to do what make me feel "why did not I leave academia earlier?" - so much better pay, I did a calculation. in just 6 years in industry, I have made more money than if I had chose to work at my old academia job until retirement. tbt, I also spent a lot more, lol - much better mobility, in the last 6 years, I had already switched from one company to another. Now I am thinking of changing again. I actually enjoy this.
Nontoxic faculty members do not call out on the toxic kind. Unfortunately, saying that academia is plagued by a toxic environment isn't going to help unless people take the necessary actions.
You don’t mention one of the most important issues. You have to bring money (grants 🤮) that is much higher than your income. Might as well fund your own business with all that effort!
And some of the worst leadership in the field. Worked in two departments barely functioning and imploding under terrible leadership, and I'm ready to leave my field entirely. Not just academia but science entirely.
Don't professors see teaching as beneath them? I was in college a few decades ago, but even then I recall yawning indifference or thinly veiled contempt toward students. It's a weird sort of egomania.
It is useful to segment "professors" by academic discipline. The grievance faculties will never-ever get a job in the real world.... ever. Hard science and engineering Profs will be just fine.
Which "genocide" are you referring to -- which side of the Hamas-Israel war, if that is how you'd frame it? I left the humanities after several years of tending in that direction after job instability (i.e. in a huge college, my department was often teetering on the edge of austerity, which meant reduction in sections and instructors), and I went from being an instructor whose sections filled quickly to one who had to scramble to meet minimum enrollment thresholds. But the politics and unethical management styles (justified by politics--gender agendas, etc.) proved toxic in an ends-justify-means way that was appalling: woke students insisting on viewing history and all current events through their victimizer-victim prism regardless; colleagues wanting to "decolonize" the curriculum while calling Jews "white"; former department chairs -- both women -- mocking or even stopping my class during an evaluation rather than wait to discuss the issue afterwards, as per protocol; "anonymous" faculty surveys that weren't (all the better to root out the dissenter who sullies the otherwise glowing departmental lock-step position on a campus policy); trans students demanding special pronouns in English classes shared by second language students from traditional backgrounds who wanted to learn conventional English; rampant cheating thanks to translation programs and cut-and-paste internet information--nothing new there but Chat-GPT; and trans "women" having access to women's toilets while female faculty "bullies" couldn't defecate or micturate before that two-hour seminar, because a guy with a three-day beard and rouge on HIS cheeks was peaking over the stall door; and a female colleague cancelling committee work I'd done after she'd stood before the committee and solicited the help. After leaving once or twice in the past, I finally retired from all that. And it's their loss. (But it's mine, too, when I think of the classes I could be designing and teaching, lives I could be helping to shape, etc.)
Quit after 15 years of tenure a year ago....actively toxic work environment..feel so much better! Thanks so much for this, greatly appreciate you!
So happy you made the move away from toxicity, @newpilgrim! Congrats.
Faculty dissatisfaction and the degradation of quality in higher education are related to the same root problem: the unchecked growth of administrative power.
Whoah, fascinating observation there @indigolden! Many of these problems could be connected to that as a root source.
RIP faculty governance!
@@FromPhDtoLife Yup. That's a HUGE quality control issue.
I am as a faculty in engineering field can say: the opportunity cost for not going to industry is costing me double my annual income/year.
That differential can be huge! It's worth talking about these differences in salary to allow folks to make informed choices. Thanks for your willingness to be honest here!
You both covered all the points. Good tip to leave anytime. I usually think I will start to apply and look for other types of jobs when I finish the semester etc. Industry is not going to wait for semester's end.
Great point here! Industry jobs do not typically hire on the academic calendar, so you can apply for jobs whenever you feel it's right to do so.
I worked at a teaching university for 12 years. I was not being very productive in research, but I remained very hands-on (I was in engineering field). Without a strong research portfolio, I realized my mobility was very low because I applied for a few positions in academia and got zero responses. That scared me and upset me a lot. I had just turned 40, if I did not move out of academia, the chance would be that I would stick to the same job for the rest of my life. Because I was hands-on, it was not hard for me to find a job in industry.
Other factors that motivated me was
- extreeeeemely slow growth in compensation
- was tired of dealing with some difficult students
I love working in academic. However, it frustrates me to have. to do all this administrative and pastoral care when I have no experience doing it and no training available. and I have to do it and many times I'm unaware that I'm doing it incorrectly or not meeting the needs of the students. The university, who has not trained me, will penalize me for a complaint about something that I wasn't trained for. So academic stuff are peeved. newbie professors leave the system because of its failure to provide a nurturing and supportive environment. So, before you can do the things, they need you to do to make their students who are paying them comfortable. You must be prepped. Lawyers prep for their cases professors do not. We are just thrown into the deep mire.
I hear you on this, @kalenagy! Folks can get asked for too much, and feel like they have no other options outside of academia. But you absolutely have a choice in where you want to spend your time and energy. Sending you strength in wrangling with these various challenges in the meantime.
🤗....you've been heard!
Fantastic talk! I'm so happy this is become information that is more accessible through TH-cam for potential Ph.D. applicants like myself.
Glad you found it helpful, Yvette!
I'm in academia (ass. prof), and there was something crucial missing from this conversation. My main psychological hurdle is that the system I am part of is no longer subservient to truth. Instead it's all about social credit. Sounds vague, but it matters.
The most useful information on leaving academia I have seen. Thank you so much.
Glad you found this helpful, Turi!
Being in the industry for 6 years now, may I also share:
what I miss from academia
- omg, teaching universities offer unbelievable work life balance, now I work at least 20 hours more than I used to weekly
- winter and summer breaks were so good for me to recover
- I rarely worried about my job security, but now I feel I was being native
- I had much more freedom to do what I wanted to do or stop doing what I did not want to do
what make me feel "why did not I leave academia earlier?"
- so much better pay, I did a calculation. in just 6 years in industry, I have made more money than if I had chose to work at my old academia job until retirement. tbt, I also spent a lot more, lol
- much better mobility, in the last 6 years, I had already switched from one company to another. Now I am thinking of changing again. I actually enjoy this.
Excellent video. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
This video was amazing! Thank you for your insights!
Glad you found it helpful!
Nontoxic faculty members do not call out on the toxic kind. Unfortunately, saying that academia is plagued by a toxic environment isn't going to help unless people take the necessary actions.
Toxic environment in academia is bad for mental health. Some colleagues are hard to work with.
So true!
Oh yeah in league of legends package handling at midnight for Amazon with time line quotas, poor management and minimum wage.
"Academia ia a playground for the rich". Congratulations for such a discovery.
You don’t mention one of the most important issues. You have to bring money (grants 🤮) that is much higher than your income. Might as well fund your own business with all that effort!
It's no secret. Academia is full of egomaniacal people.
And some of the worst leadership in the field. Worked in two departments barely functioning and imploding under terrible leadership, and I'm ready to leave my field entirely. Not just academia but science entirely.
Yup...poorly paid and still have a high ego.
“Why are some reasons?”…8 think you mean “what are some reasons?”
Possible we misspoke for that particular phrasing. We are recording these as free-form conversations that aren't scripted, so they're not perfect!
They call it “dark academia” for a reason.
Don't professors see teaching as beneath them? I was in college a few decades ago, but even then I recall yawning indifference or thinly veiled contempt toward students. It's a weird sort of egomania.
It is useful to segment "professors" by academic discipline. The grievance faculties will never-ever get a job in the real world.... ever. Hard science and engineering Profs will be just fine.
Which "genocide" are you referring to -- which side of the Hamas-Israel war, if that is how you'd frame it?
I left the humanities after several years of tending in that direction after job instability (i.e. in a huge college, my department was often teetering on the edge of austerity, which meant reduction in sections and instructors), and I went from being an instructor whose sections filled quickly to one who had to scramble to meet minimum enrollment thresholds. But the politics and unethical management styles (justified by politics--gender agendas, etc.) proved toxic in an ends-justify-means way that was appalling: woke students insisting on viewing history and all current events through their victimizer-victim prism regardless; colleagues wanting to "decolonize" the curriculum while calling Jews "white"; former department chairs -- both women -- mocking or even stopping my class during an evaluation rather than wait to discuss the issue afterwards, as per protocol; "anonymous" faculty surveys that weren't (all the better to root out the dissenter who sullies the otherwise glowing departmental lock-step position on a campus policy); trans students demanding special pronouns in English classes shared by second language students from traditional backgrounds who wanted to learn conventional English; rampant cheating thanks to translation programs and cut-and-paste internet information--nothing new there but Chat-GPT; and trans "women" having access to women's toilets while female faculty "bullies" couldn't defecate or micturate before that two-hour seminar, because a guy with a three-day beard and rouge on HIS cheeks was peaking over the stall door; and a female colleague cancelling committee work I'd done after she'd stood before the committee and solicited the help.
After leaving once or twice in the past, I finally retired from all that. And it's their loss. (But it's mine, too, when I think of the classes I could be designing and teaching, lives I could be helping to shape, etc.)
doubt
And we need to be judged by rubbish students and reviewers as well. This sucks.