The Problem With Single Target Characters in Honkai: Star Rail
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ต.ค. 2024
- While Erudition/AoE units have become more valuable in recent times thanks to Pure Fiction, the Apocalyptic Shadow game mode was intended to do the same for the Hunt path, and by extension Single Target units. But with the game mode featuring a spread of multiple enemies to target, I wanted to talk about how Honkai: Star Rail might be forgetting about its non AoE focused characters.
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#honkaistarrail #hsr #character
The Problem is Simple: They like to fight one enemy at a time.
Solution:Big ass damage number on a single target than Destruction, Nihiliy and Erudition units
@@huyphamle159 i feel like boothill and seele still do this, its just that they buff the shit out of destruction units that they do like 4/5 of the giant nuke seele and boothill deal and then half of that to adjacent enemies
@@hurmmmmphhhamm Yeah, they make Hunt pointless by having other paths hit so hard against not just single but multiple targets simultaneously. Which really hurts paths with just one niche, like Erudition and Hunt. To give them some value, they have some follow up or support mechanic, but they can't live with Destruction or Nihility otherwise.
I feel like the only way to return some value is to have single Target content that rewards damage that is funneled rather than shared, idk otherwise. 🤔
HSR did this to themselves when they went all overtune on destruction and Nihility, without giving them enough disadvantage or downside in certain contents. Idk, is this bad design or an oversight? Either way, when they design characters and content like this, it makes it very easy to know where to put your resources, if you're just looking for the most damage and utility possible.
@@hurmmmmphhhamm exactly i main seele and have the whole mono quantum built for her (fu xuan sw sparkle) and my half built gallagher,mc,firefly and aventurine somewhat do similar or better because the game is HARD SELLING break at the moment...
@@magiveemman single target is rough; i put seele aside so i can get the shorties team mono wuantum(swap her with qingque)
The Problem with Hunt is that they've taken what made them unique which was being able to cheat out multiple actions in a Cycle and give them to destruction character like Jinqliu and Firefly.
E2 DHIL can do that too
would it make you feel better if they would've made Jingliu if she enters her Enhanced state, she never exists it?
Or if they made Firefly at E2 do + 100% weakness break efficiency and double damage?
they give everything to destruction istg
no wonder why destruction is so good, it takes all the pros of the hunt and erudition while leaving the cons behind
*Solution:* Make an Endgame mode or Game mechanic that allow us to align enemies to one position so Hunt characters can shoot all of them at once. (highest pierce points)
In terms of how many enemies that a path can pierce through:
Hunt = unlimited
Destruction = two enemies (the targeted one)
Erudition, Nihility, Harmony, Preservation, Abundance = none
boothill was def the step in the right direction with his almost nuke levels of dmg, i feel like hunt characters should have some level of speed or action advance in their kits that allow them to act multiple times per cycle similar to someone like firefly giving herslef almost 100 speed upon ulting, Seele is a perfect unit on paper but suffers due to enemy hp getting too high
Yea Seele should in theorie be perfect but they really made it hard just to one shot trash mobs with her kind of completely ruining the kit.
While at the same time there are other units like DHIL and Firefly E2 that get the same doule action but a lot less restrictive to use.
Yea I agree. I also think this is topaz’s strength because numby can act outside of topazs turn and will action advance so much that they act more than every character on the team 💀
Nope, seela is the worst example of hunt. Topaz would be the perfect example or any other FUA single target hunt units. Seela requirements to kill for a extra turn is why she is obsolete.
Topaz/ratio follow up condition is more useful to keep single target alive because in practice its possible to inflict equal damage to other path in a single turn. They both at minimum hit twice per turn and with their ult. 4 times in a single turn. With a combined damage minimum 400% to as high as 800% on a single target. Excluding crit multiplier.
Bruh seele still can do a 0 cyclefor this memory @@RandomPerson-tz7wk
Reminds me of simulation universe hunt blessing
They fumbled the bag by making Apocalyptic Shadow basically an MoC that's even more tailor made for the newest release instead of a Hunt centric challenge
@@GTsvetkovski personally as a seele main I had no problem with it since it allowed me to proc resurgence easier but yea I do wish it was more hunt focused
fr, i thought it was a single target boss fight but nope, boss continue summon his/her minion until it died
I have absolutely no idea what niche this end game mode is even supposed to fill. It's a worthless game mode and that shouldn't even exist.
@@Satyr42 it centivises towards breaking the enemy in order to do actual damage, so u either play break comps or at the very least ruan mei or u dont clear
@@Satyr42the nieche is Firefly, just as Divergent Universe and the Pupppets boss, its all a huge Firefly tailor made content
With the rise of feixiao and the new March I hope this leads to an influx of single target character buffs
And Moze
Destruction path are better can do aoe and a centralized main damage bulk plus most of them heal or have damage reduction
@@ahem6679yeah this is known, they’re saying they want the new hunt characters to be strong enough to compete
Doesn't the new march have an aoe in her kit
@@quietguyjosh4643 no she’s hunt
Petition for Vars to cover a less explored attack targeting method in Star Rail, "Bounce".
Out of 53 currently playable characters, only 10 characters utilize it:
Nihility with Sampo's and Welt's skill;
Harmony with Asta's and Harmony Trailblazer's skill;
Bailu's skill healing;
Argenti's and Misha's ultimates;
Jing Yuan's, Xueyi's, Aventurine's folow up attacks.
Honorable mention, Himeko's e6 ultimate.
@@chill_dat_fox7721 I believe what hurt jing yuan the most was the bounce dmg on LL I hope it gets fixed
I second this
@@Ui_Raizenhold on i though i saw a post (a long time ago) in jy mains in reddit showcasing LL doesn’t attack dead targets
@@judielgabrielmanalo5031 what does it mean by dead targets like targets with sneeze level of health or
Xueyi have bounce ? I thought she just attack 3 random enemies .
Hoyo screwed up with the hunt path. To make them more relevant in the meta, they either need to create scenarios where you are severely punished for hitting more than one target at once, or give up n older units and make new ones with absurdly high multipliers to keep up with the top tier AOE DPS, as well as bosses with even higher HP bars to justify those.
^^
A good example is Boothill vs Firefly. Released around the same time (could not have been any closer), same focus (break), both main DPS and their most popular teams are the same (Gallagher, Ruan Mei, HMC).
Boothill is obviously the single target specialist while Firefly with her blast is more of a powerful generalist
Yet Boothill's damage is barely better against one target :/ (Mainly due to Firefly's crazy speed after ulting)
I think Boothill would have been on more even ground if he had something like partial action advance after winning a duel to ease his ramp-up or just even more damage. Right now he's only slightly better in single target scenarios than Firefly but infinitely worse in group situations. Furthermore Gallgher being fire element means he can benefit from Firefly's weakness implant but Boothill is sometimes the only one able to do toughness damage in his team :/
I say it's more of Hoyo not making a hunt focused game mode.
AS was the perfect opportunity, but they screwed it up by making it focus on the break meta. Which makes no sense, when firefly has DU and MoC.
AS is terrible for hunt characters because of how frequently the boss summons small mobs that it screws over hunt characters because most of them can only attack one at a time.
@@Antithesismanifest I wish they’d go all out on hunt characters the way they do with other paths
@@Mphi1000 Boothills best team does not have HMC
@@Mphi1000I disagree man. Boothill and Firefly both have their strong and weak. They are bound to be better than each other at different content favoring them. For example, the shared hp puppet boss that favors aoe, Firefly would triumph, where the Argenti boss, Boothill beats Firefly a mile away. He can even 0cycle it easily while Firefly cant. She struggles more with single target breaking.
You thought AS would make Hunt meta but no it was me, Destruction
waaa not againnnnn
Yeah that's what happens when you release destruction characters that do MORE damage than hunt ones, but they also do blast damage. Honkai balance department definitely on that good shit.
AS is basically more of promoting the Break meta rather than Hunt path sadly
the only good destruction character for AS is firefly? topaz and ratio outperform every other destruction character
Hot Take! It's not hunt characters that aren't designed well, it's destruction. Destruction at first seemed like either:
A: Sacrifice something, in order to do bigger damage than others (Arlan(F), Blade, IB DanHeng)
B. Deal damage while also being more tanky than others (Clara, Blade)
But then Mihoyo seemed to push away that idea when creating Jingliu, Xuei, and Firefly, and make destruction into basically "Erudition, but better".
Path identity of different paths in general seems to slowly dissipate. I mean, look at Acheron for crying out loud.
Ratio is more fit for a Nihility unit then her xD
Yeah u r right. I am new player with only 2 months of experience.by description i though Nihility was support who will debuff enemy for dps to do more dmg and there's come Acheron who is Nihility but known as top dps,and adventurine whose damage is more than some dps and he is presevation path.topaz who is hunt unit.because of that i though she would be best for hypercaryy later i know she is used as support or sub - dps. I was like what ,why and how...
Jing liu and FF do both technically sacrifice health with their skill, they just make up for it in insane damage.
@@FallenPhoenix-ml5mn the measly 100 hp that jingliu drains
What does Xueyi sacrifice ?
@@Waifu_Impact_Cunny_Archive nothing and thats the point
One thing they could have done to improve someone like Boothill would have been to make the additional break damage he does from his talent be a follow up attack that could hit another target if it's triggered and could ignore toughness type, since it would most like target a new enemy that doesn't have his elemental weakness. That would allow him to trigger another follow up the next time he attacks.
Pribably what they might do with Feixao, follow up break dps
Funnily enough, i though boothills finger shot was a follow up attack if the enemy was weakness broken.
Still pulled for him, but a tad dissapointed
Honestly they could have added a follow up attack on boothill kit whenever his allies break an enemy and then he follow up attack that trigger his talent
@Carnaj90 maybe March 7th can help him out 🤔
@@killerinwhite1992 was gonna say "literally ruan mei skill" and "makes him feel like HMC" but thinking about it it would be nice if it were to trigger but say only on the enemy he's in standoff in
actually good idea
Friendly reminder that unlike FF, Boothill can 0-2 cycle MOC without any support that helps increase his BE, only with bronya, if Hoyoverse decides to create a new support for BE that gives extra actions that for some reason makes break able to crit, idk who will eat that ammout of damage and survive but damm.
The ammount of people that undersestimate the power of Boothill is beyond me(Also happens with Argenti Btw)
The community treatment of male units in gacha is a whole story, even Pyrdwen finally adjusted Argenti's rating after many complaints of thier bias against him.
It is ironic that BH becomes a destruction unit at E6
It's not just Boothill, it's every Hunt unit. If you're 0-2 cycling, Hunt is flat out better than Destruction overall for you and you're playing a different game from the rest of the community.
if hoyo really releases a SP with that stuff, people will still use them with FF above Boothill because she's just a better option
Boothill is my main and it's been sickening since Day 1 to see how much love they gave the very next unit after him. I wish he either had some toughness ignore, regardless of element, follow up when ally breaks an enemy, or that his E6 was maybe his E1. My guy hits like a truck, but if the enemy locks their weakness or spawns a mob, we start suffering from not being able to hit multiple / get turns fast enough. All i can hope is he'll get support down the line with a unit that helps him out more than it helps Firefly
lingsha might be that support, idk if you saw the leaks of her kit but she might be really got with him, especially if you have her lightcone, but i hope they release an harmony break focused, that will maybe advance the characters that break the enemy?
@anormalhuman8959 I'll have to peep her kit, but that Harmony unit sounds like what our boy needs. If we can get him a turn faster after breaking the enemy his dps will rise, though it might also boost FF leading to him kinda being in the same position as before
It's so stupid to give Firefly built in Super Break when HMC was gonna be a permanent unit in her party anyway. They should've added that to Boothill too.
I don't want Hoyoverse to add more units that ignore elemental resistance, Acheron was already stupidly powercreep enough
If this keeps up there will literally be no point to elements in the future
The reason why my favorite path is Hunt is because topaz, ratio, Boot Hill, and all of the others are tricky to use, you have to balance out your damage on certain fights, I like that because it makes star rail a little bit more challenging when it comes to fights, I feel like I’m actually engaged against the enemy in battle while destruction units and erudition units, make me feel like I’m just pressing skill over and over again after a while, but that’s my opinion😂
TLDR; Hunt units make me feel like I’m actually making choices that matter when fighting
Boothill is fucking fun 10/10 character
Absolutely this
Get way more enjoyment out of the characters
Real and Seele
Exactly.
I was originally more interested in Firefly/Sam than Boothill, but after her gameplay got leaked I realized her gameplay is almost completely braindead and I just lost all interest in pulling her. So I pulled Boothill instead and don't regret it for a second.
Boothill, Ratio, and Topaz are by far my most used units in the game and easily the most fun to play. I'm almost definitely going to pull Feixiao too, since almost every new Hunt unit has been a win for me. March 8th is also coming next patch, and she looks great too.
People get too caught up looking at tier lists and 0 cycling potential, but I'd rather lose a cycle or two but actually have fun clearing content. The rewards are the same either way.
Especially Seele. I still use her in Pure Fiction, and I have to carefully determine my movesets. One mistake and the rotation/speedtuning will be messy.
She might not be shining as much in MoC, but PF has given her a shelter she needs.
> Apoc Shadow releases
> People speculate its finally hunt content
> Looks inside
> Multi-target
Genuinely why does this mode exist? MoC and PF advertise the shiny new ssr just fine
It was a bit of a drag how Boothill came out and was really good at single target and then Firefly came out and was nearly as good at single target and ten times as good at everything else (and I only have one Ruan Mei). Classic hunt path, I guess. I kind of thought apocalyptic shadow was supposed to be the hunt version of pure fiction, but it seems more like MoC where destruction is generally as good or better. Of course we've only had one round so far, and it launched right when they wanted to show off Firefly.
Nah, that's classic favouritism of destruction if anything.
Not even mentioning how disgustingly tailor fit was everything for Firefly during early 2.3
@@mikonyx7712 exactly even new weighted curios plus her set even including fire damage...i hear because she was so weak in beta thats why.Plus i used to love destruction path in sim uni for my blade dang heng xueyi etc etc but now its all break...and they changed the old ones....i cant anymore its all finished...
@@magiveemI guarantee you that she was anything but weak in beta.
The only Endgame ready hunts seem to be
Dr ratio
Boothill
Topaz:
@@friendlyguest4118topaz is basically a follow up support character who isn’t hungry for skill points and can do some respectable damage
@@gameb9oyshes a damage dealer that supports follow up, its disrespectful for her to be classified as just support considering numby deals 150k+ dmg consistently
@@friendlyguest4118 Calling topaz a hunt dps is honestly a lie, she is a support that can do dmg
@@hypemaddox did I or the main commenter said anything about main dps, especially for endgame? No
its hard to run single target units when newer units do single target damage but against an entire group instead( *ahem* acheron *ahem* firefly)
Indeed . MoC is just one side Acheron team and the other Firefly team.
Why? My Boothill is doing it in 0-2 cycles and is E0E1 and the achceron teams that i see in the internet needs 4-6 o:
@@TheLastGhostLegendario
Mine acheron is doing 0 cycle
@@hidehide8766 Who asked? XD
Feeling inferior or something, touched your pride? Sorry :c
@@hidehide8766 as a seele main ... kinda sad cause acheron and ff are soooooooooooooooooo- but im fully f2p lol
I mean in a simpler manner though, they also simply never threw the balancing aspects out of the window with a Hunt unit (Acheron gets her absurd multipliers and is effectively a Erudition char that can single target nuke because...reasons?, Destruction (DHIL, Jingliu, Firefly, do we need to say anything else ?) but Hunt gets Seele, who is solid, but essentially doesn't function as a Hunt character due to resurgence and then Ratio, who is also reasonably solid but nothing absurd, and Boothill, who is too busy getting nothing to improve his performance and has to jump through hoops to even do what he is supposed to do (granted those hoops are what makes him so satisfying to play) while Firefly gets content catered to her, a relic set, a planar set and a fully synergistic team to go with her while also having a very straightforward and unconditional kit because...same reasons as Acheron
Seele really is an odd character. My F2P Seele can 3K clear Pure Fiction spamming basic ATK, which is insane because her turn almost never ends since her basic also advances action.
And then after all that Bronya or Sparkle makes her do it all again. It is actually hilarious how good she is in PF, the mode designed specifically for Erudition.
people keep saying Firefly got a set dedicated to her but you guys do realize superbreak didn't have a set while normal break already has one. It's the same as when FUA got its set, that set wasn't for Jing yuan but for the mechanic.
@@mr.protagonist5639 a 1.0 set that is mostly used for pure fiction shenanigans OR by supports because it literally only gives a very generic BE bonus, a tiny bit of energy and nothing else. Cavalry as it is right now means you have to glue whoever has it to HMC, and lots of break DPSes don't necessarily want HMC. We only have one char that has innate super break and is glued to HMC so far, so until we see more super break chars happen...well it's a Firefly set
@@mr.protagonist5639 i dont mind the relic set, even though i do agree its catered more towards FF because she has superbreak without HMC while boothill doesnt
but what really pissed me off when i first saw it was the planar thats specifically for fire that increases break effect by 40% which is 4% more than talia AND gives a 6% speed boost on top of that - both physical and fire have 2x break dmg multiplier anyway so i dont quite understand why they made it specifically for fire only and the only thing im hoping for is that a planar of equal value comes out for physical in the future
@@wiking4098 i assume that bleed scaling with enemy max HP based on your break effect makes them not want to give physical characters to much break
Straight up i use a Bootcheron Team and its not even as bad as you think, Boothill applies debuffs like crazy and because of his high ST damage he can burst down high hp units while archeron does aoe cleanup. "Why not just make a break team for Boothill" well sometimes your break supports are taken up by Firefly. The only downside is no Nhility buff for Archeron when using this comp with a sustain BUT since archeron is a sub dps in this scenario its fine.
Pela is already a top 5 Boothill support so like, you can just use her + a sustain and you have a decent Bootcheron team while also at least getting some damage boost for Acheron
That team is also good in PF, i went from 20k to 31k lol.
Imagine if they didnt butcher jiaoqiu and kept his leaked healing kit 😢
@@isateasaneEven when he was leaked to have healing, it was said to be a small amount, even at e6… so what would it have even done?
@@shimmering17. maybe the small amount was enough with how fast acheron can boom enemies haha
I have a big speculation that the next Apoc Shadow is going to cater to Feixiao. Speaking of, with the release of Feixiao and Moze, I feel like they will finally revitalize the Hunt path in 2.5. We got 3 Hunt units back to back from March, Feixiao, to Moze so it's possible that Hoyo is cooking something special for these 3.
I’m pretty sure the next Apoc is gonna cater more towards FUAs (aka Hunt March, Ratio, Topaz, Yunli, Clara, etc.), or at least one side will.
I say that because by 2.5’s release there will only be a week left of the 2.4 apocalyptic shadow so it wouldn’t make sense for that one to cater to Feixiao if you’d only have a week to use her in it
@@DG_Toti to be fair tho she is also a FUA character.
@@The_CodFish69 And Phantylia is weak to Electric(Moze), Wind(Feixiao) and Imaginary(March 7th).
@@DG_Toti but the current one is already about follow up attack though ?
really i felt like boothill although is good, his weakness application just is way too short for something locked behind his ultimate and by the time you’re ready to break the bar, the weakness is gone and you lost way too much damage compared to firefly, who can hit more people and constantly apply her fire weakness with how frequently she gets her burst and skill up
an ult and 2 enhnace attacks should be enough to break no? Don't you use Ult right after skill taunt and before enhance attack? i understand the "locked behind Ult" but "application being short" is sth unheard of
destruction will always rule this game, they are, even as hoyo puts it in their description, balanced for any type of content, unlike Hunt who struggle when there is mobs and waste turns on them, or erudition who struggle against elites and bosses. Destruction is always the most reliable (except Blade, RIP my boy), nihility is the path that is truly the "hive" path like I like calling it, they get better when you have more of them on one team, at least the damaging ones.
Blade & Arlan
I agree, but Acheron completely "Ruined" nihility now 😂 all the future nihility characters will probably be kept in check because they might allow Acheron to perform her ult 2 times in one cycle and eventually break the game, as what they did to JQ, it might be a different story for another enabler Nihility tho.
tbf even tho destruction is "the balanced path", only Firefly actually does all 3 that well, JL and DHIL really suck in PF,
@@MoyaMoyashii it's like Fischl in Genshin, all new electro drivers (Cyno, Clorinde) are balanced around running her with aggravate which makes not running fischl with them so bad
@@MoyaMoyashii ngl in the future that may not even matter because Acheron would have just lost relevance fully, like all dps units seem to be in this game, some slower than others, like we will probably see a day where a video is titled “IS ACHERON BACK???” and its just gonna be so surreal.
Ironically funny that despite the 2 share the same focus on a specific playstyle, Firefly has more Hunt aspect than Boothill who's an actual Hunt. Cause I'm pretty sure Booty is currently the only Hunt in this game that doesn't have a way to manipulate his action and or attack more than once when it's his or outside his turn
But.... Those were never the requirements for a hunt character
@@mikonyx7712 not a requirement, but they are a very strong "should have". You can attack only 1 enemy: you really should have a way of compensating this disadvantage (seele and dr ratio do this in a pretty good way)
Yeah, as a boothill main I see it as a problem to me. Have to get Bronya in the team if I want to manipulate the turns, also the sp is quite a problem. If only it had a Seele resurgence in each kill.
@@mikonyx7712 while it never the requirements the hunt need it more than other. Without it other paths are pretty much just as good in single target as the hunt
His Ultimate has a delay to knock enemies back in the turn order by quite a bit and his S1 gives him a ton of speed, but outside of those yeah, he doesn't have a way to advance his turn or get extra actions like Seele, Sushang, Topaz and Ratio
Hunt is fine. It's just that Destruction units require less brainpower to use, making people think they're way better than they actually are. Topaz, Ratio and Boothill are all top-tier characters rn, and soon Feixiao too
I expected more bezerkers like Arlan and Blade, but zilch
Man I want it so much to get actual single-target bosses or fights in general. Ideally they should include one or two smaller enemies to kill before the main dish (a bit like MoC always has two waves) or at intervals (akin to Argenti's shields but just a single target), cause it would allow characters like Boothill and cones like 'Cruising in the Stellar Sea' to make better use of their kits or in some cases to be actually usable.
In the current state of the game the Hunt is looking a lot like Erudition before Pure Fiction was released.
Good video but i think since ratio they kinda solved the hunt problem and now with Boothill is solved, and probably the new hunt wind character too.
I am one shoting everything with the cowboy and with that much speed i dont need extra turns to win in 0-2 cycles.
People just tend to see 3 targets and think that automatically is better but in reality better dedisions = better results, so in general people have a huge skill issue problem, and to be fair i play a game to play it, not hit a button and kill all enemies, and if this hurts someone its just the truth lol.
What's funny is boothill also want's some adds. Why does he want adds? To build his stacks quickly. If he breaks and kills a weak unit then he gets two stacks of his passive. And getting to 3 stacks of his passive is huge compared to anything else.
1.0: You really built Herta and Himeko?
2.4: Damn it..
rememeber how it was a meme to build them??? but now we're the meme-
@@magiveem Sleepie could never/j
For a Path that want to go fast and alot, not alot of them have turn manipulation
and for a Path that supposed to have “great survivability” (Destruction), half of them are pretty fragile (no survivability or sustain), one of them even slowly sapping your team off and somehow do damage on par with Hunt to EVERYone (that’s exaggerated)
Well Blade Firefly Yunli and Clara (sort of) have good or decent self-sustain, they’re like… 3 and 1/2 out of 9 and Blade sadly doesn’t hit as hard as he used to (my boy needs an actual dedicated support not just more tall women who sap like .1% of his HP to do more damage themselves-) but they’re there!
@@DG_Toti I like Blade because he is the textbook definition of a Destruction unit based on the ingame description of that Path (gameplay wise), he doesn’t deal as much damage simply because everyone just deal more damage than him which is sad
I would like that mihoyo just straight up gave every hunt character a 20-30 base speed buff, that way they'll truly stand out from the rest of the cast.
My Topaz with Jade buff could reach 200+ spd then
👾
Speedtuning gonna be hell XD
my MidFly having 210 Speed for just existing: :) I can pretend to be hunt too
@@serikazero128 yeah, what's with that ? Imagine 210+ spd Boothill for a changed
meanwhile ratio being one of the units with fastest clears for last moc
Unless some new gameplay mechanic for teams is added I really think that the issue with hunt can only be resolved by the enemies with new mechanics favoring single target and harmony characters that provide additional buffs specific to single target attacks.
Boothill and ratio are still very competitive to the top meta dps like acheron/firefly
single target units are in the same place as erudition units were before pure fiction, the units are there but the content is not and no apocalyptic shadow was never gonna be a single target mode everyone had false expectations for it
Me when playing apocalyptic shadow:
Sees one big enemy with 1000000 hp: OUO
Sees that one big enemy immediately summon 4 additional enemies that you cannot ignore, or your cooked:
- __ -
Boothill definitely makes it work in single target but I think you are right that being able to proc super break on 3 enemies at a time (Firefly) or even 5 (Himeko, albeit with lower SB multipliers) will just always be stronger. Boothill's ramp up time is also another thing holding him back. I think it's possible to make single target viable but it does need to have some power creep features implemented.
It's actually pretty fun to use Bronya, Ratio and Sparkle in a team. The sheer number of turns Ratio gets makes him very deadly. Unfortunately, every elite and boss enemy in MOC 11-12, PF 4 takes double turns and they mostly do AOE, so I feel that makes it very hard for single target DPS to keep up. Don't even get me started with the enemies in Apocalypse Shadow....
Yanqing's meta relevancy is as alive as Cocolia
This is actually a strategy from Hoyo because, cause in the future there will be a new ST *ENDGAME* mode!!! /s
That’s what people said about Apocalyptic Shadow btw
@@3.16music instead of straight up give those "Hunt character buff", they used it to sell Firefly (aka super break team). which was already a guaranteed sellout from lore and design wise
Suuuuurely. Now, where is my Copium tank
So basically hostage style gameplay where you are punished for damaging a ‘hostage’ or enemies with extremely devastating counter attacks or simply a bomb that goes off and mauls the party if repeatedly attacked.
Gotta love how they got plenty of enemies who do that and unlike mobber units that would likely be more annoying to make a game mode around that.
@@3.16music you all had false hope for that mode, i know full well it will not be hunt oriented because every boss will just spawn theyre jumping squad on you
I personally don't think Boothill being st matter that much when he can already 1-2 tap a boss and his dmg being physical break mean it's also scale with the enemies max hp and max toughness bar
My Boothill literally nearly oneshotting a boss HP bar off of a single break and people somehow think he's bad. He's no Firefly or Acheron, but he's not far off in MoC12 and Apocalyptic Shadow.
Also in MoC12 usually one break kills the miniboss paired with the main boss because of the Bleed and Ruan Mei.
He's dealing dmg on the same level as Acheron and FF despite being a st unit lol
@@floofzykitty5072The thing is pull value. I can use my Acheron and FF to clear PF too. As I vertically invest in them, the difference only gets bigger.
Brother i think you can mixed up. Boothill's Talent damage scale with break damage which scale with Break Effect, not max hp. Bleed ( dot ) is the thing that scale with max hp. You can easily test this in SU
@@enmumumo69It's still scale with max toughness bar dmg so I'm not entirely wrong
My boothill having no problems destroying argenti in apoc shadow and MOC (old and new)
How did you deal with his summons? I found that against Argenti he had limited opportunities to damage Argenti despite ~140spd + Ruan Mei speed boost. He'd one-shot one shield, do a chunk of toughness damage to Argenti, then Argenti would pop new shields
It felt like I needed 2 - 3 cycles to start doing damage to Argenti :/
Ended up doing better just using Acheron to kill them then having her nihilities help with the breaking
@@Mphi1000 i'd personally save ur sustain ult (Gallagher or Aven) for Argenti shield until its Boothill turn, it really only a matter of patience honestly
My f2p Boothill (230 BE E0S0) team (with HMC Gallagher and Ruan Mei) can basically 2 cycles Argenti MoC with some proper planning ahead about the shield
@@Mphi1000 the same strategy as vujukain1221 but with fuxuan.
That's not surprising. Boothills role is to be a bosskiller
@@dante19890 that's why the title of the video is wrong. ratio+topaz also destroys argenti so it is not like boothill is special.
Boothill works well but literally only because he can essentially one-shot enemies and it’s so easy to build him for damage that you can make him fast as fuck without sacrificing much if any damage per turn
The problem:
- Deals damage to a single target equals to 250% of ATK
- Deals AoE damage equals to 400% ATK (Ahem Achero- ahem)
I wonder what Feixiao will do? Like there is nothing left in the pool 😢
Idk maybe to a normal person there's none left, but maybe we'd get a surprise?
Just deal damage, maybe a little different way, but still
Speed scaling? Seele has some on her lightcone. Moze could have that too
@@kwayke9 the way moze is a husbando char whos hunt lightning and 4 star... and has to go against acheron jing kafka and even serval- its not looking too good for him.I hope he does well.
She will be follow up and break. Crit break hybrid
Seemingly having some synergy with new march 7 In a dual fps comp
not Cocolia throwing her meteor on me every turn, TWICE, and just being happy that I got Aventurine(dude is singlehandedly carrying my acc)
Even if single target units do more damage to single enemy than blast units it may not even matter because single target units can overcap on damage. For example if your blast unit takes out 50% of enemy hp bar in one atack and your single target unit takes out 80% both of those units need 2 turns to kill that enemy, but blast unit can on top of that damage adjacent enemies thus making blast better than single target
It’s funny that Vars is making this, being we’re getting THREE hunt characters in the next 2 patches. (moze, Imaginary March 7th, and Feixiao.)
I think their going to fix the hunt characters being a bit harder to utilize with Apocolytic shadow:
So far, with what we know of the newly released Hunt characters, they have been break characters, with Moze and Feixiao being theorized to be a break hunt.
Hunt characters have problem with AOE, so with apocalyptic shadow having a main boss, I think it would help, especially because of how Apocolyptic shadow set up everything:
*two bosses, one wave, two Phases.*
Boothill benefited from AS, (imma refer to Apocolyptic shadow as AS since it takes too long to write :/) due to their being 2 main bosses that doesn’t have any sort of Break negation, and due to that, he could just mainly focus on the boss, instead of the enemies spawned from that, like argenti and his shields for svarog and his automatons.
This was just the first AS stage, so we don’t really know how the future will look, since like MoC, it could easily change later on. (A Boothill outdamages a firefly and Acheron, but it can only hit one unit, that’s why he’s not good for PF, but for AS, that can easily change, especially with how last stage of AS was giving Acheron a bit of a trouble, since each ult without break was doing only 1-6% of cocolia’s Hp, and you have to break it.)
What happens with hunt all depends on what the next hunt characters will be capable of, and since Imaginary March 7th is already really Op, it could be the start of a better future of the path.
But currently, we’re just going to have to wait, but tbh, I think their going to be able to make a comeback, especially since we’re focusing so much on hunt next patch, so we’re just going to have to wait and see.
I think that people are missing the point of AS after seeing the summons and that the first cycle was break effect focused. AS is generally more favorable towards hunt characters than destruction not due to dmg but due to the fact that they focus all their toughness reduction on the boss, and our current roster of hunt characters all have something which allows them to reduce the toughness bar faster than destruction carries (excluding FF). Like hsr even added a toughness reduction highlight for each ability in the same patch for everyone to see. AS isn't Destruction focused, it's Toughness Reduction focused, not just break effect, because every character regardless of mechanics needs to break the boss to deal higher dmg. This isn't new, this goes for enemies outside AS as well. That's why Ratio, Topaz, Seele, Boothill, HELL EVEN YANQING, are really good for it.
@@tyreesenelson9159 yeah, 100% agree, and while it might’ve not been as hunt-focused first patch, I feel like it’s going to become more so in the coming patches.
Like Pure fiction when it was released, people want to be blind to what is in front of them, and believe that they can just use Meta MoC units to beat PF, when really, they can’t keeping ignoreinf the blood on the wall, and will eventually have to do with it.
That’s just how this community works man, that’s the best way I can put it :/
The Hunt was a very poorly designed path to begin with. A single target DPS path is the most susceptible to power creep
Edit: 3:16 I think aventurine is also a single target boss idk
not really, once he enters the gamble phase.
While I don’t have him, this is another reason why Argenti is a simple and straightforward, but overall underrated and strong character outside of PF.
His kit is able to deal with both Aventurine’s phases, decent to great ST damage on max ult and is the Aoe king (given that there are many Aoe queens atp lol). If I wasn’t saving for Firefly or Feixiao, I’d pull him or Boothill for both enjoyment of their characters and their kits.
I got no physical dps other than Sushang and Luka for reference lmao
Can clear all content but not having a Aoe physical unit hurts but skipping Yunli who’s kit I really think I’d enjoy and is just a better Clara who I ALSO really want but don’t have, all the more painful and tempting.
Thx for reading my Ted talk
Edit: lil typo, fixed now
Edit(x2): Pulled Yunli. She is great fun. Even though it was hard pity it is worth it for me so good luck to ppl pulling for her or saving for 2.5
@@Arethusa01To be fair, I have never seen him go into dice phase since I started using boothill
@@Gottaloveaxolotls Agreed Argenti is v much underappreciated and underestimated
last MOC I had him consistently 4 cycle 12 side 1
same pace as my Ratio running Robin and aventurine
I think Vars counted the dice he spawns as his aoe gimmic, as you need aoe in the second phase score breakpoints or whatever, otherwise you get imprisoned
While I agree with what you say on the video, I would like to add 2 more things to consider:
1 - The problem with releasing single bosses is that the game is already VEEEERYYY simple and, sometimes, boring. The multiple minions the bosses have are what usually give them an actual challenge, and making them single target would make the already "one-trick pony" nature of the characters even more prominent. I think this is because the game has no real depth in terms of strategy outside of team building and this will really hurt the game in the mid to long run.
2 - If single target characters are "modify" to provide something more than just damage to 1 enemy, then it will totally kill the role and meaning of said units. Seelee is the perfect example, reseting her turn, making her a Hunt unit in theory and a destruction/erudition character is practice, totally destroying the role and purpose of being a Hunt character, and (on a more large note) totally killing the purpose of having different roles/types of characters. If anyone can do anything, whats the purpose of having classes to beging with?
I could see them creating enemy types or bosses which either buff the enemy when killed or do backlash damage when hit to give hunt characters a reason to exist
Pure single target mode when?
ST characters aren't dead. Dev only promotes multi-targets at the current time. And currently also punishing the one that use ST healers, ST shielders, and FuXuan to promote AoE healers and shielders.
Don't be surprised if they suddenly made a new boss or mechanics that would made ST profits more later. Been shifting many gacha metas in the past, this isn't an impossibility.
And that's why I don't really follow the meta lol. I just use whoever I want to. The only meta I'm thinking is just the character building guide. Gachas are more like of resource-management game than other for me.
Exactly, the only problem is the MT also hit as hard as ST for 1 enemy in this game
The main problem is that only Boothill fulfills the Hunt path properly
While boothill does have the highest single target in game I think every limited hunt do properly in their own unique ways as one guy said in the comments.
having multiple turns to do big damage (seele)
Doing big damage by throwing consecutive attacks in a single turn or outside a turn(Ratio and topaz)
Throwing one big damage almost one shotting enemies in a single turn (Boothill)
The real problem is mihoyo throwing balance out of the window with other paths mostly destruction and Nihility and not creating game modes where the hunt can really shine.
IMO. The mob are much more powerful and move much faster in current state of the game that u have to pay attention to them and the boss at the same time. Single target character can only kill 1 at a time making it a disavantage.
It's unfortunate that Destruction's ceiling is so low compared to Hunt's though. Pretty much every Hunt released has cheaper 0 cycles than their competition. Even Seele frequently beats out Acheron in terms of cheapest 0 cycle clears. Boothill's ceiling at E0S1 is also inarguably higher than Firefly's.
I can see why Hoyo doesn't make Hunt stronger when they already dominate in ease of 0 cycling at E0.
Just started playing, pulled for Boothill as my first limited dps, because i like gunslinger type of characters. Seeing him getting powercrept out of every end game mode as soon as his banner ended felt so painfull lol. Not even a patch to shine. I will probably never pull for hunt again (unless subdps like topaz/new march, those one look fun) after that.
Unfortunately what happened to boothill did happened before with Dan hang IL, he was semi powercrept the next patch after release by Jingliu who could do similar damage with less SP consumption, Dan hang IL did however return back after the release of sparkle who provided him with needed SP.
He's not getting powercrept though?
Yeah, i can relete u. I am also new player and I have break team as my first and boothill as my main DPS. It feels so good to see that nice dmg at first and i pulled for raun mei and the dmg increased more but the problem i face when their are multiple target and it takes way to much time in simulated universe and if the weakness is not physical then oh boy it will take eternity to defeat them . I wished i had pull for firefly but i just thought boothill was enough for break team. Well i was new so i dont have that much knowledge too which i regret now . Wished i had watch some yt videos before skipping firefly.(By the way i got boothill on 30 pity while trying to get e5 pela)
@@MrSpydome suuuuuure. There is just a unit in the same archetype(break) that performs statistically better in every end game mode regardless of buff in rotation. Totally not a powercreep :)
@@Anoril72 that unit is only better in pf than him. in as and moc, boothill team still has better clears eventho that unit has way more usage rate (popularity reason).
No... I believe they will release "bounce" Hunt. The bounce mechanic is available since 1.0 (LL Jing Yuan and asta), they just need to make it to be not change the target until defeated. Let say the total damage is 500k. There is 4 enemy with 20k each. Bam bam bam bam... done. Not aoe and no damage wasted.
Its like the arrow thing on DU.. that goes bam bam bam, wait enemy respawn then the bam bam bam continues...
I don't think I have the IQ to keep up with your explanations sometimes but your voice gives me eargasms
I think something that would help Hunt chars would be implementing a mechanic from Reverse 1999 where some enemies have an undispellable buff where they take reduced damage from multi-target attacks and DMG reduction is a separate multiplier from Defense so it isn't overriden by Def reduction. It could even be made to take increased Single target damage instead of less multi target so it doesn't feel like a nerf.
ina perfect world destruction units would do 100% to one target and 75% to ajacent targets hunt units would do 250% to a single target and erudition units would do 50% to everyone everyone does the same dmg (excluding character kits multipliers etc) but the seperation of paths are equal and clear and in this perfect world there’d also be 1-2 types of content for each path
I feel like they should only allow hunt in apocalyptic shadow
They can have fights that have the reverse of the some of the fight where we have to take out the small minions first, where if you touch/kill them it will buff the boss and it incentivizes ppl to only choose character that attack a single target.
Knowing Star Rail, they will for sure address single-target units and give them some sort of endgame that makes them seriously shine like Pure Fiction did to FUA or Erudition
I think that the path itself is obviously at a disadvantage, but they can still release meta units for this path if they want to
Atp we need a dedicated support for single target carries. Maybe with a skill that boosts damage for abilities that target one opponent? Or maybe it makes that single target damage "bounce" between enemies, up to a cap though?
imagine the dissapointment when i was about to bring seele finally and then apocalypse actually spawn ads that have quite a lot of hp
My idea of fixing hunt characters has always been to create support and substain characters like Aveturine, Gallagher and Harmony MC, that can take care of smaller enemies. But these characters also help everyone else, especially Gallagher who is fire element.
Just scrolled through the comments and I gotta agree. We need hunt characters to have more turn manipulation. Either FUA or a better version of Seele's passive is good enough.
At this point Hunt units can move to being the fastest in speed by a wide margin by having higher base speed and then have a death by a thousand cuts scenario where they can make up for marginally better damage with large amounts of action. Honestly the idea of just bumping up damage a single-target attacker can do could get to a point where they could one-shot or two-shot bosses (which would be good in isolation) until you realize that Apocalyptic Shadow and Memory of Chaos in higher levels is in general just one boss and minions you can sweep up or ignore rather quickly (Argenti being the exception). And just to clarify that while AS is somewhat better with AOE attacks, it's a completely different conversation entirely if we end up seeing units that could clear a phase in 1 or 2 turns without sweaty gamer level investment. So that then might push Hoyoverse to want to increase every enemy's health and we might as well end where we started, only this time it's more difficult for everyone.
So, another solution I can think of is to chain Bosses and minions HP (kinda like Memories of Past, Present and Future operates), but prevent mass damage, so you can damage only one enemy at a time
I think a good mode would be a mode where you have a limited number of cycles to defeat as many minibosses or bosses without adds in a row as you can progressively getting more tanky and you are rewarded based on the amount you get through, meaning that little percent hunt characters have above destruction or erudition characters have make all the difference in your speed and efficiency
4:07 - 5:54 Very thought out analysis about each damage class 🤔
I regret building my Dan and Sushang. All those wasted materials...🥲As much as I love them, I haven't been using them in months.
Sushang is my favorite character but ever since I got Firefly she hasn't seen the light of day 😭
@@Number_27 I got Clara as my Beginner 5*, so yeah... I honestly just built Sushang, because in the beginning of HSR I thought that, just like in GI, I could play any character and be able to do all the content. I soon learned that this is NOT the case and yes, HSR is my first turn-based gacha game. 😆
13:43 - I have alot of theory crafting for Single Target unit to be good within and without a Single target boss. Just more gimmicks that let a Hunt unit to deal damage multiple time within their turn.
For instance, I have cooked up a simple character that may or may not been inspired by Hu Tao from Genshin Impact. Her gimmick is as follow:
- The character have a modest multipliers and without their passive, they are on par with Wind Dan Heng Damage.
- This character passive allow her to take an extra action (similar to Seele) when she deal a Crit or hit a new enemy that havent get hit before. However this character only able to use her passive for a set amount of time before entering their cooldown stage, during which they buff the entire team Crit Rate.
This basically a bounce attack that you can actually control which enemy is getting attacked, and can adress how many instance of buffed attack can score. This also open up new archetype of team that want to act as much as possible, chipping away bit by bit of the enemies defense line, and when the time come, channel all damage into a singular nuke.
Imo the issue is mostly a numbers game. Like said in the video, single target should be doing at least 2x damage on single target compared to AOE. If top tier Hunt characters were able to chunk 2-3 times the boss health vs Firefly/Acheron, they'd be perfectly fine in MoC and AS
Boothill literally one shots MoC bosses, I don't know what game you're talking about here...
It's not dead, it was never alive in the first place
dr ratio is my only character that hard hitting and i am not even lying lmao
As a boothill guy, I'm kinda upset he got immediately power crept by firefly
For hunt characters, they could give a class exclusive stacking buff that they get every time they hit someone, could also restrict it to hit the same target to keep them locked in on a single enemy (and give Seele an added to her passive that let's her keep the buff if she kills the enemy), this stacking buff could be damange, speed, crit, or a mix of all or some of them, that way you can truly make them the absolute users of speed instead of "If I don't oneshot that thing before it spawns another 4 minions I'm done for".
And I still think that Silver Wolf is a pretty solid unit, I wouldn't do anything to her honestly, if I had to buff her it would be something like her ult puts a special debuff that spreads the effect of the break to the enemies on each side of them, similar to that SU blessing.
Another thing that hunt falls behind in is toughness damage. For example, Ratio skill is 3 units of toughness damage into just one enemy while DHIL has 3 units plus 1 to adjacent targets. So unless you are Boothill, you aren’t really doing any more toughness damage to a boss that other units are while missing out on doing toughness damage to other units.
Can you update your thoughts on jade on the tier list video?
Maybe if they made a boss who spawns enemies in and if you hit them, you take dmg or get debuffed. Kinda like how the deer spawns those twigs who can counter. It won't fix the problem as a whole but it will give single targets something they're best at.
Imagine a buffer that allows any single target atk to deal double dmg (or add whatever the percentage of side blast dmg is x2)
Or even more op: the more the enemies, the more the dmg, as if it were an AOE, but all concentrated on a single enemy
I never pulled any Hunt units since Seele since I didn't have many limited units back then.
I now have every Destruction unit in the game for that very reason and I still plan on getting Yunli.
Just change the apocalypse shadow buff once break meta is done. It will randomly select a minion of the boss and inflate their health and damage. Killing this minion will deal a chunk of damage back to the boss, and apply a weakness to it. The minion selected will then have some form of hunt based buff. Any attacks to other minions will heal it or it takes x% less damage from blast or aoe attacks. Idk but they could definitely still make a hunt mode
I think the way they can fix the hunt issue for the upcoming character Feixiao is to give her some massive SPD buffs so she can get many individual attacks out even if they are not as big.
A harmony unit that allows single target attack to either bounce, or cause shockwaves to hit adjacent enemies would help.
Gonna go out on a limb and say hunt is fine, ill even say the premier hunt characters are doing quite well in this as.
People glazing Acheron and Firefly as per usual when if you just look at the actual clears Hunt units can clear MOC and AS just as well as them if not better.
Acheron and Firefly are worse in Pure Fiction compared to Herta, Himeko, Clara and Seele so they can't really be saying well Acheron and FF can be used in Pure Fiction as well like yeah when they are carried by Erudition, but its a waste of them bringing them to pure fiction otherwise they will get a little over 20k scores at best.
@@kennethyoung7457 yes but it surely takes more work and resources as a seele main (even now)
@kennethyoung7457 my acheron consistently hits 40k and is rated on higher on tierlists then seele for pf. Ff and acheron are also the 2 best moc units in the game by a large margin. There also t0 in apocalyptic shadow aswell. No need to downplay them since they both make every other dps look mid in comparison.
@@judehaylesamy Seele consistently hits 40k too and gets more points than Acheron & Firefly in CN data, she's drastically underrated in tier lists for whatever reason
Honestly sticking selee in the shortstack team instead of qinque has also a good amount of success. Also using yanqing as demonstration of the hunt path is kinda weak considering he barely scratches 4 star levels.
Destruction is just wayyyy too flexible. I think PF has the right philosophy, so many weak units that you "have" to use Erudition. I have 220 speed E2 Firefly, she barely keeps up with Himeko in PF.
I think an interesting option to make stronger hunt characters is to incorporate the bounce mechanic more. This maintains the character being the most effective in single-target, allowing for huge break reduction and higher damage, while still giving the ability to not be useless in multi-target (even if it’s a bit RNG-based). This maintains hunt characters as bad in PF, but could make them more viable in MoC and AS, albeit more risky to use than destruction characters (but with a higher payoff once you actually get down to single-target)
the only way you can buff hunt would be to release a mode that you get bonus damage if only 1 unit is damaged but damaging multiple targets will reduce the damage to them.
Considering arguably 3 of the current top 5 DPS in the game are ST i'd say no it's not dead
3? There's Acheron, Boothill, Firefly, Dan Heng. That's already 4 taken so how did you get 3 st?
@@presto6893 Seele and ratio I think
@@Ui_Raizenhell no.
@@nationalgeografic7687 oh well then idk
@@presto6893 when comparing E0S1
1. Acheron
2. Firefly
3. Boothill
4. Jingliu
5. Can basically be any of Ratio/Seele/DHIL based on view
You can even put Ratio in 4 if you really wanted which is why I said "arguably 3" though realistically it's more like 2, Boothill and Ratio
The solution is simple: Potential to do 4 follow up attacks.
double speed/Action advance boost.
Sp neutral.
Another solution for this problem is to release enemies or bosses that have a "counter" mechanic, or perhaps a gimmick where if let's say AOE attacker attacks an enemy, the AOE attacker gets stunlocked for a certain amount of turns, basically forcing units to either, single target. But even with this, shielders and characters that can cleanse debuffs are still a significant part of the game, maybe if something drastic like, a one shot that goes through shields were to happen if you attack a particular enemy where to exist in the game, maybe single target would shine.
The only ways I can really see them keeping single target relevant is making new Hunt units actually have units that can actually deal similar amounts of single target damage as other units can deal AoE damage.
My other idea is to make a harmony character that gives a really strong buff to single target attacks. Like giving a decent boost to everyone, but giving like a 3x stronger boost that only works on single target attacks.
Imagine a character that deals okay single target dmg but whenever you ult, you get 3 extra turns.
Each dealing more single target dmg after the previous one.
You would still be doing single target dmg but could actually attack other enemies just like Seele but without such a massive reliance on weak enemies.
i remember that in your jingyuan video, you mentioned that single target dps can quickly eliminate one target out and increase team’s survivability (so if there are 3 enemies, only 2 will attack instead of all three of them attacking)
I guess the power creep of this game is just too much
Just like how firefly change the meta into a break meta I believe a character would do that for the hunt too ( could be a nihility character that puts debuff on an enemy so that the damage can spread from one enemy getting hit to an aoe damage to the other enemies but reduce damage for other enemies that are not marked with the debuff) I think this idea is pretty cool. ☕
I feel like the main problem with hunt characters is that making boss fights consist of only one enemy would make them too easy to defeat so hoyo just doesn't want to add them
Bosses like Argenti, Sunday and the Deer make it difficult to see how single target damage dealers can compete with the likes of characters like Acheron, Himeko and even Herta. This is especially true in low to moderate investment accounts
I think we are reaching the point that we need something to directly, or indirectly buff single target unit,
Because, these single target unit is still great, but if there are any better options out there, I will use that over single target ...
Or, just patch them up like old man zhongli (y)