Shad, thank you so much for the shoutout! We really appreciate it! We’ve already created a combat concept demo based on the system I mentioned in my tweet, but it was made entirely using marketplace assets. For the full game, we’re now working on our own mocap animations inspired by HEMA. We’re collaborating with a local HEMA group that provides us with video references, ensuring we put as much effort into the combat animations as we do with the armors! I’ve wanted to do this ever since I experienced the combat progression in Gothic 2 and got a bit into HEMA myself. I’ve always believed this would be the best approach to portraying medieval combat in a video game. Your video really solidified that idea for me-it showed that implementing something like this is not only possible but can also work beautifully, even in a system somewhat similar to Elden Ring. Your videos were a huge help in convincing others that this was a good direction to take, so thank you for that!
Don't underestimate the impact of devs like you responding to feedback and references from others. The more of you that respond the more responses you will get and maybe that will motivate other devs to follow suit.
^^^This, yes! I know most of us in this space, myself included, are not particularly fond of social anything, but I have learned the hard way that communication with the player/fan base is KEY to not only a successful title, but a well made one.
With the current state of video games as it is a dev not bashing gamers! Your studio has my full attention, take your time and her cooking, we will be there for you at launch!
I can only imagine how much work it takes to animate that rig with all the sliding plates (which is why it often flexes in other games) or if they figured out a way to dynamically animate to save time for the animators. Edit: The main concern I have is if they have a process for this to still animate quickly. For example, they want to add a new longsword animation, how much extra work does it take to animate all the armor pieces compared to how its traditionally done multiplied across all the different armors that will use that animation. This is really cool, so I really hope they do have a system that allows them to animate this kind of armor efficiently.
Not only the work it takes, but I'm wondering the practical impacts that will have on GPU/CPU. I bet my GPU is going to be real toasty whenever I try to play the game. That is, if the game even runs on rtx 3000s. Not to mention the CPU it takes for this game to run. If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say Ryzen 5800x3d and above will do, anything below that is probably going to struggle quite a bit.
@@Fuerwahrhalunke Most of the plate movements are surely "baked into" the animation, even if they're originally somehow physically simulated. Only dangling bits like the tassets should require physics calculations during gameplay, and that's not such a big addition when you consider all the fabrics and such you see in a modern 3D game.
@@Fuerwahrhalunke They can use the improved rigging only for close-ups and/or important characters. Similar to how in games with tanks only few closest tanks have fully animated tracks. And there can be option where player can set how much the more demanding rigging gets used, to find their preferred balance between quality and performance. And I am not sure if their rigging even *is* more resource intensive. I could actually be less, because rotating a rigid model is cheaper than calculating bending and the pose driver calculation is not complex either.
With baking of the animations is probably not that hard. It's something that probably could be done since the PS2 or so, but most people never bothered
As a game developer, especially one who works on armor for videogames, I must give great credit to Knights Path for achieving that level of technical ability for their armor. So you all know, yeah most game devs are aware of the immersion breaking issue of armor bending like rubber, and we all hate it too, however it is EXTREMELY difficult to get that level of sophistication to work, especially in real time for videogames. Seeing a game developer who has made a rig where they put in that depth into their technology is honestly inspiring and I hope to see more of it in the future!
I think that things like this will cost a lot of computer power if you have multiple characters in a battle? Realism close to perfection is great, but if it slowes down gameplay a lot or demands a supercomputer then a lot of people will not enjoy it.
kid nice story but um there is a few games that have solid armour done right.... prime example a free to play game called For Honour, knights, vikings and samuria all with proper armour...... Chivalry 2 also done right...... like I said nice story to bad it's just a story you made up (incase not clear I am calling bs to your a game dev claim)
@@antlerr well im playing for honor and there is still stuff where the characters armor bends. The overall depiction of weapons is alright and the armor can be actually pretty good but its definitely not on the level that knights path has shown here
The RPG progression system is super rewarding and also realistic! I hate when I level up, I get 1.6% bonus to my damage. That doesnt feel rewarding to me at all.
I understand why more games don't do it, since it must be pretty time/money-consuming, but I remember being so disappointed seeing my high-level Elden Ring character still wielding swords and maces like a child.
Devs would still have to pay special attention on gameplay balance, because maybe some of the "non-expert" animations will actually end up being better than the 100% HEMA expert animations you unlock at end game. For example, if the game somehow unintentionally rewards large areas of damage (ample sweeps with the sword) more than attack speed, and your more novice animations have these slow but large sweeps that disappear for more precise sweeps at expert level (for the same kind of movement of course), then paradoxically leveling up may be a bit of a downgrade. For this to not be a problem, either have the same hitboxes for all animation levels (and the animations are just cosmetics, with more and more speed at higher levels I guess), or carefully understand what *in your game* makes a move good. Being more precise and concise in real life is better than large sweeps because keeping your guards and surprising your opponent with alternative moves is very effective. But if you don't have mechanics reflecting that in your game, you'll need to implement them, or find other mechanics that reward the same thing.
@@mythicdawn9574 Lower level guards and parries should be weaker and slower. Having your guard "broken" or having a higher level enemy have more success in counter attacks after you block would help reinforce the "skill gap" that would be present in a real world scenario. Overswinging results in a slower recovery back to a guard or redirecting into a counter cut. As a game mechanic, that should result in higher level characters having a higher dps with any given weapon. Having some kind of a balance/stumble mechanic (similar to guard/combo breakers in fighting games) could be made to favor higher level characters. Increasing their ability to stumble their opponent, while decreasing the chance of them stumbling. On an even level match up it should remain a constant chance, but as the level disparity grows so would the "stumble gap". I mean you could still end up with an exploitable glitch, but that will be up to bug fixes and patches to remedy as people find and popularize the exploits. Also if any of the Novice moves/animations include a blatant telegraph, Having a reaction command opportunity for higher lvl characters to exploit for some kind of first strike, or grapple would be a neat touch.... I mean it might lead to an op insta kill move, but that would be realistic if a novice just picked up a weapon and went toe to toe with a combat veteran. The novice could get lucky, but statistics are on the side of the experienced combatant. This all also depends on whether this is a pvp game, pve, or rpg style of game. The mechanics that would work well for one, may be horrible for another. Based on the games the dev mentioned it leads me to believe that this might be a rpg type of game.
Gothic 1 did it first. I remember you could spend money at the trainer not to make your weapon do more damage but to learn steps from what was basically a dance in combat. You started with a stiff basic attack, then learned a step that hooked into the basic attack and allowed you to continue attacking for a bit, and then a 3rd step that hooked into the 2nd and allowed you a fluid combat movement where you could keep attacking.
This is next level. It is nice to see people putting heart and soul in their creations. I had the same shock when I saw a racing game having distinction in car damage between plastic and metal car parts, having cracked back bumper hanging was so good.
Games like Kingdom Come: Deliverance and Hellish Quart are doing wonders to inspire the games industry to properly portray medieval weapons and armour. Good to see Knights Path continuing this trend.
yes and now imagine that no publisher wanted to publish original Kingdom Come and devs had to collect money on kickstarter, now thes have like 8 milion copies sold, it's a big middle finger to AAA publishers
So glad that gaming/computer tech has come so far as of us being able to simulate everything needed to have this detail of armor. The morphing character models and their armor is a bit distracting sometimes. This walk cycle looks great.
The technology to do this has existed almost as long as CG animation. It's not a matter of technology, these guys just put in the massive amount of work needed to create the rigs. Other devs just decided their resources are better used elsewhere.
Yeah, I've hated seeing plates bend or be flexible. We've come so far and still see it. I've always wondered why they couldn't give certain surfaces or textures behaviors to be various levels of flexible.
@@LuxFerre4242 Its also a matter of limitations and performance. Every bone in the rig costs processing performance. Physics enabled bones even more so. Its also why its often the case character will share animations (they have the same or similar rig) in order to save memory needed to be loaded too. Hair simulation still has a way to go, but rigid body dynamics are getting better and add so much more realism when used. Would be interesting to see how much clipping there is at extreme poses.
@idc2120 Yeah, there's obviously massive leaps in technology since they used real-time rigs in the 60s till now. It wasn't until Jurrasic Park that IK was really used. I'd still say this has been feasible in games for over a decade, longer if it's precooked animations rather than real-time simulations during gameplay. Being able to do it without a AAA budget is amazing though.
I'd honestly rather see more realistic fighting than well animated armor. The hyper speed swings. The jump 10-20 feet in the air to super swing down. Ditch that crap. Ditch armor having basically no effect except increasing hit points. Ditch making cool kill animations of driving a weapon completely through people wearing armor like it's nothing.
That's so cool Shad! Glad to see you get shout-outs for the work you do! I remember being so stoked when I found out you where Brandon Sanderson's HEMA expert for his Stormlight Archive books! It totally showed when Adolin goes on and on about all his different swords :D.
Now This is amazing, I thought those #medievalcombatreference videos were good, but I also thought they would fade into the past and wouldn't be brought back for at least a decade. Seeing this on a character... incredible. I'm thrilled to see your influence has grown and inspired others. Gives me hope for fantasy and medieval stuff in the future.
I’m driving down the road in my semi, listening to this video and caught myself grinning from ear to ear over Shad’s excitement. I’m chuffed he’s chuffed. I’m not even a medieval sword fighting expert, but I’ve always found the rubber like movement of armor in video games so funny looking. I’m glad to see someone in the industry trying to elevate video games as an art form, who doesn’t mind taking constructive input from the members of its player base. Bravo! Well done!
Stretching plate armor in video games has always been a pet peeve of mine as well. This is awesome. As a bit of encouragement, your videos also gave me significant inspiration when writing Kahverengi's Dilemma: The Hermit.
I'm sure its gratifying to see your suggestions for improving combat/armor animation in games being taken seriously. It was indeed a good point and worthy of being considered.
I BELIEVE Half-Sword does something like that too, I believe the plate armors don't stretch either? Shad should probably check it, assuming he didn't already!
seconded. been having a blast with it and armor actually means something. also love how actually using the proper stances to parry and follow up is such a big deal
I can't agree you anymore. I believe that's the best sword fighting system in video games so far. In fact, I thought this video is talking about Half Sword when I read the title.
I remember seeing a little flexing in chest armor un half sword, but you are right, armor means something and the collision is so precise that you actually can hit or miss the gaps
Shad, good news! I'm starting to get a lot more of your notifications in my feed now. I hope this is true for other subscribers. Also very excellent video, glad to see some game makers out there putting forth the effort to be realistic.
Keep up the good fight Shad!!!!! Some may disagree with your positions on certain issues, but I don't think anyone can doubt your sincerity and authenticity.
Shad! Your medieval combat reference vids were some of my favorite and I returned to rewatch them many times. I’m glad these developers saw them, too, and decided to do something about it. I’ll be checking out “Knight’s Path” because of you. BTW, in a similar manner, last year I ordered a sword from Romance of Men, I mentioned your name, and the person on the phone (yes, a real human and not a computerized multiple choice list!!) said “Oh, yes, we know Shadiversity, we’re very happy with them.” So, yeah, buddy, you’re making a difference in the world.
This is awesome shad. Seeing your work being put to use and represented in a video game is dope. Keep up the work you're doing for fantasy and medieval content.
That's cool, Shad! And thanks Knights Path for being inspired to incorporate realism of those details into your game. I'll be paying attention for sure!
Love you, Shad, you were one of the first people I started watching about sword related content and you helped grow my budding curiosity into a big interest!
5:38 you can push this ocncept even further representing the difference between a low skill and high skill swordfighting by how the low skill fighter uses more stamina per attack, and how the higher skill level in swords will boost damage with the same weapons becuase your edge allignments on point, a tangeble feeling of growth and mroe reasons to level up than just numbers go up and now i can use the higher level sword.
I remember that! Kramer did don't of those as well on his Living Anachronism that were awesome. I was thrilled when I saw the Eldin Ring dlc had some of that 'fixed' somewhat in the light greatsword category . If it catches on and even more do some of this research and implementation. This is awesome news.
This is amazing content. Love this. Could see analysis like the side by side with the different moves/choreography with all kinds of games, The Witcher, or others
It's great when a game developer actually listens to the customers and tries to put out something people will actually like. Too many companies seem to do the opposite.
@@markthemighty3 Welcome to the point. Armour typically is animated as flexible in sci-fi games just like it is in medieval ones. Glad you could join us.
I don't really play video games, but this is amazing. Common media has rarely gone "authentic" because it isn't theatrical enough (or because actors aren't skilled and can't perform safely), but I think they've just been doing it wrong.
I'm downloading the free demo right now - I can't believe it's been on Steam since 2023 and I never knew about it! Actually, one of the things I really loved about Neverwinter Nights 2 was how, at low levels, your avatar would stand rigid and only do basic attacks, and as you levelled up, you'd start to look more fluid. I thought that was a nice touch.
Regarding the solid, non-stretching armor, I have been tearing my hair out for YEARS when games don't do this. I entirely understand why. When making the new soldier armors for Tiberian Genesis I realized that the character skeleton is just too simple to simulate rigid plates around the shoulders, because the human shoulder has a surprisingly wide range of motion. And you'd have to either blend keyframe animations against physics simulations or have special animation sets for every armor set to account for their physical limitations. I hope we can keep doing what Knight's Path is doing in the future. It's very satisfying seeing armor move realistically without stretching all over the place.
im pretty sure not just game devs will use it. i myself subscribed to your channel some time ago not only out of pure curiosity and love for the past but also so i wont loose a valuable source for references if i ever go back to writing fantasy :) great stuff!
I think the reason most games do it that way is it's easier to join the armor's weight map with the body weight map and call it a day. Devs worry that if the armor doesn't do that, it will clip through the body as it moves. But clearly you can prevent that, as we see here. However, I'm sure if they made this model to a breakdance, it won't look so good. lol
The problem is resources, if you make an extremely detailed game, very few people will have the computer to run it. Devs have to sacrifice realism and accuracy for fun and what makes the game accessible to most people, those are the things that need to come first, otherwise you are making a tech demo. If your focus is mostly on graphics and realism, chances are your game will lack everywhere else, even kingdom come deliverance has to make sacrifices.
Yes, this is an extremely simple walk animation. I'd like to see how it behaves in actual gameplay, as what Shad is showing here is something you can make in 10 minutes with stire bought assets.
@@Re-PhantomZero DCS is a game that focuses on Graphics and realism, Needs near enough top tier computer hardware to run (not to mention the added hardware of flight sim equipment), The learning curve is a cliff face and there's barely any actual content to play with and have fun in. Possibly one of the least accessible game for the average gamer. And yet it's been around forever and has a healthy and very dedicated community. A game can sacrifice everything for realism and graphics and still work if what they offer captures their niche of the market. DCS has done it on the combat flight sim community surely a game which focuses on realism and graphics can do the same on the HEMA and/or Medieval combat community. Judging from the reactions they're getting, it's definitely got people interested.
The idea of a character's animations getting smoother and more refined based on the skill level you have with a weapon is actually a really cool idea. You start off kind of a tyro just swinging wildly, and eventually you're a precision killing machine. That would be an awesome bit of character progression.
Congrats Shad! Hope more of them listen and I will be looking out for Knight's Path now. Now if only we can convince directors in Anime of my idea. An Isekai where the secret cheat power is the main character actually knows how to use real world sword techniques in a world full of clunky, over swung, telegraphed anime fighting styles.
As a game developer I can confirm how hard this is to do. Adding clothing to characters and rigging is the most difficult part of making 3D games, by a long shot. Bravo to the developer!
Coming from a solodev, you should set up a mo-cap and release the animations as an asset pack for devs to use. Animation is expensive and time consuming and many of can't afford it so it would be a huge help.
@@Th34lChemist we might do that with the mocap animations we are creating for Knight's Path! Indie devs have to help each others and when it will mean that more games will have great and more realistic medieval combat animations, then we will be happy to help!
3:20 that's because they often use a generic rig for both cloth and armor. Now, with cloth, that isn't much of an issue since cloth can stretch. But with armor, the animation software does not know that the part of the model can't stretch when using a generic rig. Animating armor properly is 10 times more work than animating cloth. Although most games also don't even put in the minimal amount of effort to try to reduce the noticeable stretch.
The moment I saw that the creator of the animation was 'Knight's Path', I was stunned and yet not entirely surprised. I played their demo up to the last encounter, and I was very impressed with the combat. It felt like Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, but in a medieval European setting. The post of the dev saying that they intended to showcase varying skill levels is accurate, as it's also in the demo. Depending on your character's skill level, they hold the sword in different guard stances that's based on HEMA, and the movesets also change with said skill level and stance. Overall, I enjoyed the demo. The only gripe I have is that it's a bit of a doozie for my older machine in terms of the graphics. I want to say some optimization is welcome and the ability to tone down elements of the graphics like shadows, motion blur, etc. But, it's also a demo. Optimization and graphic toggles usually come last, so I can't fault the devs for not having those options yet
Indie studios like this are the best ones to kickstart this more realistic trend, since they're more willing to experiment to stand out from the rest. AAA studios may follow when they see more interest in this direction. PS: seems like they have a small free demo on Steam. Shad, please play it and review the animations further!
I can completely understand something messing with the Immersion when you are well versed in the subject. To be fair to game devs though, 99% of us don't notice or care and are just there for the hacky, slashy fun.
would be really interesting to see how they managed that in detail. needs an entirely different workflow than the usual aimation with a bones-based rig.
They say they use pose drivers, which more or less means that the plate has a table of what rotation values should be applied to it based on rotation of characters bones. That means the plate can follow the bone/limb only when it is supposed to, without deforming. Pose drivers are quite useful also for stuff like standing/tall collar on clothing, so that it doesn't look like glued to your jaw/chin, but instead moves only when your head would push it to side. It can be pain to set up to, because it needs a lot of tweaking to really give results that are worth it. That is one of reasons why developers generally don't bother... For example the otherwise excellent Witcher 3 has a lot of bendy armor going on.
Animations themselves are extremely rarely a factor on game performance. If you use an extremely inefficient algorithm maybe, but otherwise animations themselves don't add much more computational complexity than the model itself already does. A couple dozen moving parts are nothing compared to calculating the several thousand triangles that make up the model in the first place after all.
Shad, great point on the stretching of the mesh on the armor/character. Kudos to Knights Path on putting out the extra effort in the combat animation. I' have been playing Dragons Dogma 2 as well. I'd love to see you do a video on that game.
The armor models with independent animation rigging for the different pieces looks so good. Probably the best I've ever seen in a video game. The different animations for different skill levels is also an incredible attention to detail. It reminds me of how Killing Floor 2 has different motion capture animations depending on whether your character has an ability that makes them reload the weapon faster, rather than just speeding up the animation and calling it good. The basic animations are how someone who is trained to handle the weapon at a proficient level would do it; the faster animations are slick motion captures of experts doing John Wick-style weapon cycling. It's one of my favorite little details about the game, so I love to see something similar here. I'm downloading the demo on Steam right now.
Absolutely! When the entire animation changes, it feels so much more rewarding and immersive compared to just increasing an invisible stat. Enjoy the demo, and let us know if you manage to take down the arena champion!
I also saw something else just as sensitive and important to this emersion you speak of. Yes I feel the same way about metal and even any other armor, being as flexible as cloth and rubber..but there is something else.. When a solid meets up with another.. it too often sinks inside of it and vanishes..as if even in the game, it's just a graphics projection. SOMETHING ELSE...not happening here. That..really seals the deal. 😊😊
Shad, thank you so much for the shoutout! We really appreciate it! We’ve already created a combat concept demo based on the system I mentioned in my tweet, but it was made entirely using marketplace assets. For the full game, we’re now working on our own mocap animations inspired by HEMA. We’re collaborating with a local HEMA group that provides us with video references, ensuring we put as much effort into the combat animations as we do with the armors!
I’ve wanted to do this ever since I experienced the combat progression in Gothic 2 and got a bit into HEMA myself. I’ve always believed this would be the best approach to portraying medieval combat in a video game. Your video really solidified that idea for me-it showed that implementing something like this is not only possible but can also work beautifully, even in a system somewhat similar to Elden Ring. Your videos were a huge help in convincing others that this was a good direction to take, so thank you for that!
Don't underestimate the impact of devs like you responding to feedback and references from others. The more of you that respond the more responses you will get and maybe that will motivate other devs to follow suit.
^^^This, yes! I know most of us in this space, myself included, are not particularly fond of social anything, but I have learned the hard way that communication with the player/fan base is KEY to not only a successful title, but a well made one.
With the current state of video games as it is a dev not bashing gamers! Your studio has my full attention, take your time and her cooking, we will be there for you at launch!
If you guys make a game with combat similar to elden ring, but with realistic swordsmanship, consider me sold!
This sounds positively amazing
I can only imagine how much work it takes to animate that rig with all the sliding plates (which is why it often flexes in other games) or if they figured out a way to dynamically animate to save time for the animators.
Edit: The main concern I have is if they have a process for this to still animate quickly. For example, they want to add a new longsword animation, how much extra work does it take to animate all the armor pieces compared to how its traditionally done multiplied across all the different armors that will use that animation.
This is really cool, so I really hope they do have a system that allows them to animate this kind of armor efficiently.
It’s a mix. There are physics implaid so animations aren’t that complicated. On the other hand the rigging gets a lot of work and thought.
Not only the work it takes, but I'm wondering the practical impacts that will have on GPU/CPU. I bet my GPU is going to be real toasty whenever I try to play the game. That is, if the game even runs on rtx 3000s. Not to mention the CPU it takes for this game to run. If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say Ryzen 5800x3d and above will do, anything below that is probably going to struggle quite a bit.
@@Fuerwahrhalunke Most of the plate movements are surely "baked into" the animation, even if they're originally somehow physically simulated. Only dangling bits like the tassets should require physics calculations during gameplay, and that's not such a big addition when you consider all the fabrics and such you see in a modern 3D game.
@@Fuerwahrhalunke They can use the improved rigging only for close-ups and/or important characters. Similar to how in games with tanks only few closest tanks have fully animated tracks. And there can be option where player can set how much the more demanding rigging gets used, to find their preferred balance between quality and performance. And I am not sure if their rigging even *is* more resource intensive. I could actually be less, because rotating a rigid model is cheaper than calculating bending and the pose driver calculation is not complex either.
With baking of the animations is probably not that hard.
It's something that probably could be done since the PS2 or so, but most people never bothered
As a game developer, especially one who works on armor for videogames, I must give great credit to Knights Path for achieving that level of technical ability for their armor. So you all know, yeah most game devs are aware of the immersion breaking issue of armor bending like rubber, and we all hate it too, however it is EXTREMELY difficult to get that level of sophistication to work, especially in real time for videogames. Seeing a game developer who has made a rig where they put in that depth into their technology is honestly inspiring and I hope to see more of it in the future!
That's my thought. Feels like having multiple rigid bodies attached to a flexible moving frame has so many ways of going wrong.
I think that things like this will cost a lot of computer power if you have multiple characters in a battle?
Realism close to perfection is great, but if it slowes down gameplay a lot or demands a supercomputer then a lot of people will not enjoy it.
kid nice story but um there is a few games that have solid armour done right.... prime example a free to play game called For Honour, knights, vikings and samuria all with proper armour...... Chivalry 2 also done right...... like I said nice story to bad it's just a story you made up (incase not clear I am calling bs to your a game dev claim)
@@antlerr Congrats on being a jerk.
@@antlerr well im playing for honor and there is still stuff where the characters armor bends. The overall depiction of weapons is alright and the armor can be actually pretty good but its definitely not on the level that knights path has shown here
Having the actual game mechanics change as you level up in more ways than just attack speed and damage ammount is always a very nice touch
The RPG progression system is super rewarding and also realistic! I hate when I level up, I get 1.6% bonus to my damage. That doesnt feel rewarding to me at all.
I understand why more games don't do it, since it must be pretty time/money-consuming, but I remember being so disappointed seeing my high-level Elden Ring character still wielding swords and maces like a child.
Devs would still have to pay special attention on gameplay balance, because maybe some of the "non-expert" animations will actually end up being better than the 100% HEMA expert animations you unlock at end game. For example, if the game somehow unintentionally rewards large areas of damage (ample sweeps with the sword) more than attack speed, and your more novice animations have these slow but large sweeps that disappear for more precise sweeps at expert level (for the same kind of movement of course), then paradoxically leveling up may be a bit of a downgrade.
For this to not be a problem, either have the same hitboxes for all animation levels (and the animations are just cosmetics, with more and more speed at higher levels I guess), or carefully understand what *in your game* makes a move good. Being more precise and concise in real life is better than large sweeps because keeping your guards and surprising your opponent with alternative moves is very effective. But if you don't have mechanics reflecting that in your game, you'll need to implement them, or find other mechanics that reward the same thing.
@@mythicdawn9574 Lower level guards and parries should be weaker and slower. Having your guard "broken" or having a higher level enemy have more success in counter attacks after you block would help reinforce the "skill gap" that would be present in a real world scenario. Overswinging results in a slower recovery back to a guard or redirecting into a counter cut. As a game mechanic, that should result in higher level characters having a higher dps with any given weapon. Having some kind of a balance/stumble mechanic (similar to guard/combo breakers in fighting games) could be made to favor higher level characters. Increasing their ability to stumble their opponent, while decreasing the chance of them stumbling. On an even level match up it should remain a constant chance, but as the level disparity grows so would the "stumble gap". I mean you could still end up with an exploitable glitch, but that will be up to bug fixes and patches to remedy as people find and popularize the exploits. Also if any of the Novice moves/animations include a blatant telegraph, Having a reaction command opportunity for higher lvl characters to exploit for some kind of first strike, or grapple would be a neat touch.... I mean it might lead to an op insta kill move, but that would be realistic if a novice just picked up a weapon and went toe to toe with a combat veteran. The novice could get lucky, but statistics are on the side of the experienced combatant. This all also depends on whether this is a pvp game, pve, or rpg style of game. The mechanics that would work well for one, may be horrible for another. Based on the games the dev mentioned it leads me to believe that this might be a rpg type of game.
Gothic 1 did it first. I remember you could spend money at the trainer not to make your weapon do more damage but to learn steps from what was basically a dance in combat. You started with a stiff basic attack, then learned a step that hooked into the basic attack and allowed you to continue attacking for a bit, and then a 3rd step that hooked into the 2nd and allowed you a fluid combat movement where you could keep attacking.
Awesome that they're actually listening to the suggestions, and using your animation guides.
Now imagine if they reached out to historians and HEMA practitioners a lot earlier, like when games like Elder Scrolls Morrowind were being made.
@@whitewolf3051 Still you gotta love Tevanni cephalopod helms.
@@whitewolf3051 Modders exist for that kind of things.
I'm so stoked that #medievalcombatreference is starting to have an impact in game development!
Congrats Mr. Brooks! What a cool shoutout!
This is next level. It is nice to see people putting heart and soul in their creations. I had the same shock when I saw a racing game having distinction in car damage between plastic and metal car parts, having cracked back bumper hanging was so good.
Witch Game was the racing Game?
@Ottgar Dirt 2 I think. Or 3.
For the greatest in accurate car damage: BeamNGdrive
To be fair this is just a very simple walk cycle of which you can get at any asset store for game devs. Praise it when you see any actual gameplay.
@nightwynd5663 the Game is on Steam Dezember 23
Games like Kingdom Come: Deliverance and Hellish Quart are doing wonders to inspire the games industry to properly portray medieval weapons and armour. Good to see Knights Path continuing this trend.
yes and now imagine that no publisher wanted to publish original Kingdom Come and devs had to collect money on kickstarter, now thes have like 8 milion copies sold, it's a big middle finger to AAA publishers
this is great to see, whish them much success with their game!
That is so cool! You must be proud to have contributed!
Way to go shad! You're making games better for all of us. Put knights path on my radar too
From my own experience I know how gooooood it feels when people appreciate your work and take it to their heart!
Awesomeness! Good on Knights Path! And good on you, Shad; you fully deserve your state of chuffness!
That was awesome. Your work is making impacts on people all around the world.
Great to see all your hard work and enthusiasm pay off.
So glad that gaming/computer tech has come so far as of us being able to simulate everything needed to have this detail of armor. The morphing character models and their armor is a bit distracting sometimes.
This walk cycle looks great.
The technology to do this has existed almost as long as CG animation. It's not a matter of technology, these guys just put in the massive amount of work needed to create the rigs. Other devs just decided their resources are better used elsewhere.
Yeah, I've hated seeing plates bend or be flexible. We've come so far and still see it. I've always wondered why they couldn't give certain surfaces or textures behaviors to be various levels of flexible.
@@LuxFerre4242 Its also a matter of limitations and performance. Every bone in the rig costs processing performance. Physics enabled bones even more so. Its also why its often the case character will share animations (they have the same or similar rig) in order to save memory needed to be loaded too.
Hair simulation still has a way to go, but rigid body dynamics are getting better and add so much more realism when used.
Would be interesting to see how much clipping there is at extreme poses.
@idc2120 Yeah, there's obviously massive leaps in technology since they used real-time rigs in the 60s till now. It wasn't until Jurrasic Park that IK was really used. I'd still say this has been feasible in games for over a decade, longer if it's precooked animations rather than real-time simulations during gameplay. Being able to do it without a AAA budget is amazing though.
I'd honestly rather see more realistic fighting than well animated armor.
The hyper speed swings. The jump 10-20 feet in the air to super swing down. Ditch that crap. Ditch armor having basically no effect except increasing hit points. Ditch making cool kill animations of driving a weapon completely through people wearing armor like it's nothing.
That's so cool Shad! Glad to see you get shout-outs for the work you do! I remember being so stoked when I found out you where Brandon Sanderson's HEMA expert for his Stormlight Archive books! It totally showed when Adolin goes on and on about all his different swords :D.
Fantastic. Will keep an eye out.
It would be really cool to see this become an industry standard in gaming.
Great work Shad and KnightsPath!
Now This is amazing, I thought those #medievalcombatreference videos were good, but I also thought they would fade into the past and wouldn't be brought back for at least a decade. Seeing this on a character... incredible. I'm thrilled to see your influence has grown and inspired others. Gives me hope for fantasy and medieval stuff in the future.
ARMOR BONES!
Shad that is so cool. You are important and you've contributed great things to the internets.
I’m driving down the road in my semi, listening to this video and caught myself grinning from ear to ear over Shad’s excitement. I’m chuffed he’s chuffed. I’m not even a medieval sword fighting expert, but I’ve always found the rubber like movement of armor in video games so funny looking. I’m glad to see someone in the industry trying to elevate video games as an art form, who doesn’t mind taking constructive input from the members of its player base. Bravo! Well done!
Stretching plate armor in video games has always been a pet peeve of mine as well. This is awesome. As a bit of encouragement, your videos also gave me significant inspiration when writing Kahverengi's Dilemma: The Hermit.
Plate armour just doesn't stretch ... and if it bends, it's probably because it's being VERY protective in that instant and it's still going to hurt!
Things like this illustrate the meaningful impact you have on the community. I hope it's an encouragement in the face of TH-cam's blatant oppression.
I could watch that animation for hours man. The attention to detail is INSANE
Nice. Definitely adding this to my wishlist. It's great to see developers care so much about the games they're making.
I'm sure its gratifying to see your suggestions for improving combat/armor animation in games being taken seriously. It was indeed a good point and worthy of being considered.
100%
Skill-adaptive animations is something I've been wanting to put into a game for a many years now. Glad someone is finally doing it.
I BELIEVE Half-Sword does something like that too, I believe the plate armors don't stretch either? Shad should probably check it, assuming he didn't already!
seconded. been having a blast with it and armor actually means something.
also love how actually using the proper stances to parry and follow up is such a big deal
@@ConstyC i second your second. sadly, i don't have the reflexes to play games like half sword anymore. getting old sucks.
Skill issue :p@@lonnierh0dgejr41
I can't agree you anymore.
I believe that's the best sword fighting system in video games so far.
In fact, I thought this video is talking about Half Sword when I read the title.
I remember seeing a little flexing in chest armor un half sword, but you are right, armor means something and the collision is so precise that you actually can hit or miss the gaps
Shad, good news! I'm starting to get a lot more of your notifications in my feed now. I hope this is true for other subscribers. Also very excellent video, glad to see some game makers out there putting forth the effort to be realistic.
Keep up the good fight Shad!!!!! Some may disagree with your positions on certain issues, but I don't think anyone can doubt your sincerity and authenticity.
These daily uploads are awesome! Thanks for all your hard work Shad!
That is so cool. Thanks for sharing Shad! Game is now on my wishlist.
Looking promising. Commenting for your algorithm.
Outstanding! I am delighted to (finally) see real armor interaction and combat. Now I have a new game to look into thanks to you!
Shad! Your medieval combat reference vids were some of my favorite and I returned to rewatch them many times. I’m glad these developers saw them, too, and decided to do something about it. I’ll be checking out “Knight’s Path” because of you.
BTW, in a similar manner, last year I ordered a sword from Romance of Men, I mentioned your name, and the person on the phone (yes, a real human and not a computerized multiple choice list!!) said “Oh, yes, we know Shadiversity, we’re very happy with them.” So, yeah, buddy, you’re making a difference in the world.
Swords are cool
Hell yeah
I agrreeeeeeeeee
Agreed
Sticks are cool too!
Yes.
This is awesome shad. Seeing your work being put to use and represented in a video game is dope. Keep up the work you're doing for fantasy and medieval content.
That's cool, Shad! And thanks Knights Path for being inspired to incorporate realism of those details into your game. I'll be paying attention for sure!
Achievement unlocked Shad😂
I agree with all your points in this video. I love it when gang developers to take the time to make things realistic in games.
You're clearly so pleased with what you're seeing. Congrats on this little W of yours. :)
Love you, Shad, you were one of the first people I started watching about sword related content and you helped grow my budding curiosity into a big interest!
5:38 you can push this ocncept even further representing the difference between a low skill and high skill swordfighting by how the low skill fighter uses more stamina per attack, and how the higher skill level in swords will boost damage with the same weapons becuase your edge allignments on point, a tangeble feeling of growth and mroe reasons to level up than just numbers go up and now i can use the higher level sword.
Yes
Ok, that is seriously cool. Knight's Path is on my radar now so gonna be paying attention 😎
Wow it’s crazy amazing that your initiative had a positive influence like that
I think we need more references videos and it was great initiative. I used it myself!
The fruits of your work start to grow. Feel proud bro.
THIS IS FANTASTIC!!! Super excited to see this! Now I gotta go buy it lol
My man is looking happy and healthy - nice to see you doing well Shad!
All the best.
I remember that! Kramer did don't of those as well on his Living Anachronism that were awesome.
I was thrilled when I saw the Eldin Ring dlc had some of that 'fixed' somewhat in the light greatsword category .
If it catches on and even more do some of this research and implementation.
This is awesome news.
This is amazing content. Love this. Could see analysis like the side by side with the different moves/choreography with all kinds of games, The Witcher, or others
I just love the community of history fans on the internet man
That's so cool! I love how the armour realistically reflects light, looks so nice and shiny
Congrats, shad. Keep up the good work.
Shad, you've made it!
Shad reaction to this is pretty awesome. I never knew about knights path, but now I’ll have to keep an eye out it.
It was super awesome to see Shad so excited about our game! ☺
It's great when a game developer actually listens to the customers and tries to put out something people will actually like. Too many companies seem to do the opposite.
Okay. That game sounds really good. I'll be keeping my eyes on this Knight's Path game.
Been so many sci-fi games lately, now we are getting what we truly need
The same coding could fix typical spacesuits that act like they are painted on, just like armor in other games acts like it’s painted on.
Yes, it's not like characters wear armour in sci-fi games too.
@@WJS774 They look like they are painted on, and are just costumes
@@markthemighty3 Welcome to the point. Armour typically is animated as flexible in sci-fi games just like it is in medieval ones. Glad you could join us.
@@WJS774 U sure? They all seem like they are painted on with extra steps
That's awesome! I'll be keeping an eye on this
If you look at the original reference video. It seems like the dev of Knights Path is one of the top comments from 2 years ago. Very cool to see.
Oh that's cool, I didn't know that its one of the top comments!
I don't really play video games, but this is amazing. Common media has rarely gone "authentic" because it isn't theatrical enough (or because actors aren't skilled and can't perform safely), but I think they've just been doing it wrong.
This is awesome Shad, congrats!
I think this may be a very important moment in upcoming game development.
I'm downloading the free demo right now - I can't believe it's been on Steam since 2023 and I never knew about it! Actually, one of the things I really loved about Neverwinter Nights 2 was how, at low levels, your avatar would stand rigid and only do basic attacks, and as you levelled up, you'd start to look more fluid. I thought that was a nice touch.
Epic! Big win, Shad 🥳
Regarding the solid, non-stretching armor, I have been tearing my hair out for YEARS when games don't do this.
I entirely understand why. When making the new soldier armors for Tiberian Genesis I realized that the character skeleton is just too simple to simulate rigid plates around the shoulders, because the human shoulder has a surprisingly wide range of motion. And you'd have to either blend keyframe animations against physics simulations or have special animation sets for every armor set to account for their physical limitations.
I hope we can keep doing what Knight's Path is doing in the future. It's very satisfying seeing armor move realistically without stretching all over the place.
This looks like it could be used for any kind of complex layered interaction, like rubble/debris/thatch
Now this is the kind of influence & influencers we love to see!
Awesome, both the game devs and Shads initiative!
im pretty sure not just game devs will use it. i myself subscribed to your channel some time ago not only out of pure curiosity and love for the past but also so i wont loose a valuable source for references if i ever go back to writing fantasy :) great stuff!
I think the reason most games do it that way is it's easier to join the armor's weight map with the body weight map and call it a day. Devs worry that if the armor doesn't do that, it will clip through the body as it moves. But clearly you can prevent that, as we see here. However, I'm sure if they made this model to a breakdance, it won't look so good. lol
Break dancing not looking good is an Australian speciality 😊
The problem is resources, if you make an extremely detailed game, very few people will have the computer to run it. Devs have to sacrifice realism and accuracy for fun and what makes the game accessible to most people, those are the things that need to come first, otherwise you are making a tech demo.
If your focus is mostly on graphics and realism, chances are your game will lack everywhere else, even kingdom come deliverance has to make sacrifices.
Yes, this is an extremely simple walk animation. I'd like to see how it behaves in actual gameplay, as what Shad is showing here is something you can make in 10 minutes with stire bought assets.
The reason it works here it's because it's using new features from a new engine, and they're not well scalable. Older engines didn't had similar tech
@@Re-PhantomZero DCS is a game that focuses on Graphics and realism, Needs near enough top tier computer hardware to run (not to mention the added hardware of flight sim equipment), The learning curve is a cliff face and there's barely any actual content to play with and have fun in. Possibly one of the least accessible game for the average gamer. And yet it's been around forever and has a healthy and very dedicated community.
A game can sacrifice everything for realism and graphics and still work if what they offer captures their niche of the market. DCS has done it on the combat flight sim community surely a game which focuses on realism and graphics can do the same on the HEMA and/or Medieval combat community. Judging from the reactions they're getting, it's definitely got people interested.
The idea of a character's animations getting smoother and more refined based on the skill level you have with a weapon is actually a really cool idea.
You start off kind of a tyro just swinging wildly, and eventually you're a precision killing machine.
That would be an awesome bit of character progression.
Congrats Shad!
Hope more of them listen and I will be looking out for Knight's Path now.
Now if only we can convince directors in Anime of my idea.
An Isekai where the secret cheat power is the main character actually knows how to use real world sword techniques in a world full of clunky, over swung, telegraphed anime fighting styles.
Here's the usual full support for channel growth.
As a game developer I can confirm how hard this is to do. Adding clothing to characters and rigging is the most difficult part of making 3D games, by a long shot. Bravo to the developer!
That's why the devs from this game openly admit to using store bought assets, lol.
3:40, Thanks I'm never going to unsee that
My game is nowhere near completion, but I have #medievalcombatreference ready to go whenever I need it.
I greatly appreciate the level of detail put into this. Properly animating armor is no joke, let alone full plate!
Coming from a solodev, you should set up a mo-cap and release the animations as an asset pack for devs to use.
Animation is expensive and time consuming and many of can't afford it so it would be a huge help.
@@Th34lChemist we might do that with the mocap animations we are creating for Knight's Path! Indie devs have to help each others and when it will mean that more games will have great and more realistic medieval combat animations, then we will be happy to help!
@@KnightsPathGame This would be so generous. Amazing work so far definitely got my attention on Knight’s Path now!
This must be the most rewarding thing for a contend creator. Grats mate.
3:20 that's because they often use a generic rig for both cloth and armor. Now, with cloth, that isn't much of an issue since cloth can stretch. But with armor, the animation software does not know that the part of the model can't stretch when using a generic rig. Animating armor properly is 10 times more work than animating cloth. Although most games also don't even put in the minimal amount of effort to try to reduce the noticeable stretch.
Makes it seem like armor and outfits arent actually something the character is wearing but it's actually attached to the characters flesh.
@Rezuvious that's because, for the animation software, it is part of their flesh
That's pretty awesome man! Well done. :D
Awesom initiative from you! Congrats
The moment I saw that the creator of the animation was 'Knight's Path', I was stunned and yet not entirely surprised.
I played their demo up to the last encounter, and I was very impressed with the combat. It felt like Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, but in a medieval European setting.
The post of the dev saying that they intended to showcase varying skill levels is accurate, as it's also in the demo. Depending on your character's skill level, they hold the sword in different guard stances that's based on HEMA, and the movesets also change with said skill level and stance.
Overall, I enjoyed the demo. The only gripe I have is that it's a bit of a doozie for my older machine in terms of the graphics. I want to say some optimization is welcome and the ability to tone down elements of the graphics like shadows, motion blur, etc. But, it's also a demo. Optimization and graphic toggles usually come last, so I can't fault the devs for not having those options yet
Indie studios like this are the best ones to kickstart this more realistic trend, since they're more willing to experiment to stand out from the rest. AAA studios may follow when they see more interest in this direction.
PS: seems like they have a small free demo on Steam. Shad, please play it and review the animations further!
Sadly their demo is 100% made with store bought assets. None of the animations or models are made by the studio.
I can completely understand something messing with the Immersion when you are well versed in the subject. To be fair to game devs though, 99% of us don't notice or care and are just there for the hacky, slashy fun.
Never before have I wanted someþing so much and never knew until I received it! Massive props to A Knight’s Path!
That is so awesome! And it does look great.
would be really interesting to see how they managed that in detail. needs an entirely different workflow than the usual aimation with a bones-based rig.
They say they use pose drivers, which more or less means that the plate has a table of what rotation values should be applied to it based on rotation of characters bones. That means the plate can follow the bone/limb only when it is supposed to, without deforming. Pose drivers are quite useful also for stuff like standing/tall collar on clothing, so that it doesn't look like glued to your jaw/chin, but instead moves only when your head would push it to side. It can be pain to set up to, because it needs a lot of tweaking to really give results that are worth it. That is one of reasons why developers generally don't bother... For example the otherwise excellent Witcher 3 has a lot of bendy armor going on.
@@walterscientistdoesn't it also make optimalisation problems?
Animations themselves are extremely rarely a factor on game performance. If you use an extremely inefficient algorithm maybe, but otherwise animations themselves don't add much more computational complexity than the model itself already does. A couple dozen moving parts are nothing compared to calculating the several thousand triangles that make up the model in the first place after all.
Shad, great point on the stretching of the mesh on the armor/character. Kudos to Knights Path on putting out the extra effort in the combat animation. I' have been playing Dragons Dogma 2 as well. I'd love to see you do a video on that game.
The armor models with independent animation rigging for the different pieces looks so good. Probably the best I've ever seen in a video game. The different animations for different skill levels is also an incredible attention to detail. It reminds me of how Killing Floor 2 has different motion capture animations depending on whether your character has an ability that makes them reload the weapon faster, rather than just speeding up the animation and calling it good. The basic animations are how someone who is trained to handle the weapon at a proficient level would do it; the faster animations are slick motion captures of experts doing John Wick-style weapon cycling. It's one of my favorite little details about the game, so I love to see something similar here. I'm downloading the demo on Steam right now.
Absolutely! When the entire animation changes, it feels so much more rewarding and immersive compared to just increasing an invisible stat. Enjoy the demo, and let us know if you manage to take down the arena champion!
I'm so happy to see this myself. I tend to focus on robotic things and it is so off-putting seeing metal stretch like that.
I also saw something else just as sensitive and important to this emersion you speak of. Yes I feel the same way about metal and even any other armor, being as flexible as cloth and rubber..but there is something else..
When a solid meets up with another.. it too often sinks inside of it and vanishes..as if even in the game, it's just a graphics projection.
SOMETHING ELSE...not happening here. That..really seals the deal. 😊😊
Congrats and thank you for the video.
Accurate armor 👍
I like the just sit down and talk about medieval stuff (and/or about video games)
Hey that’s awesome, you’ve actually inspired a game developer, and they gave you your due :)
That's honestly pretty sick!