Charlie Utter SASS #18818 here. 25 years in SASS this year, and I really like this idea! It is definitely not the same sport it was when I started. This would be a great way to bring more people into the sport and a lot more fun! Bravo! Back in the 90's, when I ran an indoor shooting range, we created a club called PEAS..Prohibition Era Action Shooters. It was very successful with lots of classic 1911s, revolvers, Thompsons, etc. The ladies really loved seeing all the shooters dressed to the nines in roaring 20's suits. It was a great time!
Gads, those first two cowboy shooting clips looked boring as hell. I completely see your point and agree with you, the sport needs more variety and realism.
@@Wildwest89i've also seen some really young kids doing it as well, which is good. But yeah, as soon as they can start memorizing more than 3 numbers, it may become a bit boring.
Yup, very dull stages in a sandpit, can be done much better. Our stages tend to be a bit more exciting, shooting out of a stagecoach, in the chapel or saloon, Texas star, can poppers etc. Our annual "shotgun city" is 28 rounds in one stage through a maze that you don't know the layout of.
@@Panzersoldat Yeah, it's Hollywood mostly, and needs theatre. Most clubs tend to have one "cool thing" they do - firing from a moving train, a twisty alleyway, firing a cannon or dynamite etc., even just putting flour in the can popper cans adds something extra. Sadly, some have more limited facilities.
@@czjonny8933 Agreed. The ones that are most affordable are the revolvers by Peita and Uberti. Generally between 500-800$. Even then, it’s gonna be more than your standard 9mm.
it looks bland as a viewer, but as a participant it's anything but that. The beauty is in learning the weapons and practicing to be quick and effective with them. Its harder than it looks.
I am S.A.S.S. 9512 Life. I did the Mounted Shooting. We even wrote the rules for Mounted Cart Shooting. I am in total agreement with you. Make the stages FUN again. I remember going to E.O.T. in late 1980's when just going and having fun was enough for many.
The guys on the SASS wire forum are jerks too. Their moderator runs off so many younger members because they are all set in their ways and want to moderate every comment unless it is the old cronies
The CAS club I go to does 10-10-4 but with modifications like shooting from a electric horse, using a derringer or throwing a knife during the stage. I also went to one CAS match prepared by my buddies where we had spinners, shooting Long rangę from bushes and clearing a kill house with revovlers 😀
I have never participated in Cowboy action shooting because of it becoming a boring close range timed event. I own all the guns for it, but have only shot them with full loads for accuracy @25 yds - 100 yds. One time I even shot my 1860 Uberti Henry in a 200 yd. silhouette event. My muzzle loading club used to shoot matches at 50 yds. only. When I became vice president, I included targets @25, 50,and 100 yds. for some variety. This pissed off the members who were only there to win, and did not want to deal with any challenges. Fortunately most of our shooters enjoyed a challenge. For me accuracy has always been my motivation. Shooting at targets so close that you could throw stones at and hit is preposterous. Thank you for this video.
A "Roaring 20s Deadeye" event sounds fantastic! I'm looking forward to a video on that one. I feel like that's something the historical shooting events have overlooked a bit, or that don't get enough attention. What a great idea!! Thank you for this. 🙂
I love the flexibility of firearms. I help run local cowboy matches and one major reason that it is hard to get people to participate is the requirement of 2 revolvers, shotgun, and lever action. And as you mentioned in many cases there are many modifications done to the firearms which further dissuades people from getting involved in the sport.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who has had an issue with it. I wanted to try a sass shoot but I didn't have the very specific types of guns they required and dropping thousands on a Replica shotgun and rifle was out of the cards.
I shot cowboy action about 20 years ago for a bit. I had no idea it degraded to such a level. I did it for fun. Shooting from bathtubs and other stage props. I remember shot gun targets that the 1st shot launched a pop can in the air for your second shot. That deadeye division looks really fun. I may have to break out the lever action, Vaqueros, and coach gun and head to Idaho for the match up there
At 73, I don't run and tumble as quickly as I did 50 years ago. But I can still shoot as well if not better. (I've had *lots* of practice. LOL) Finally I have all the hardware I need for CAS except mobility! Oh, well! Thanks for the video, Karl!
Used to design matches at my gunclub. People complained when I put the targets further than the minimuim distance. Also didn't care for the 10-10-4 format all the time. Would always spice things up with sometimes an all shotgun stage (between 8-12 rds) or forced reloads (load 8 in rifle with 10 targets). Eventually got out of CAS due to gamers and the simplification of the courses. BTW we built a cowboy town for our matches so we had lots of props. I believe that makes a difference as shooting at other clubs with generic ranges (watching your matches looked pretty generic) isn't nearly as much fun.
Glad to see move of a physical element to cowboy action shooting for a change rather than moving 10 feet to the next table. I as a shooter in my early 30's never participated in cowboy although had an interest due to the fact of little to no movement, no more than shooting a high power match. Hopefully this catches on in a larger scale, I definitely would get into this!
I'm glad to see that other people are wanting a change in CAS. I've always had an idea of creating a marksman match for 1899 and prior pattern rifles. 150 to 500 yard range or so.
This seems like a nice addition to the sport of Old West firearms, especially for the younger folk. The promoters will need to provide cranes and forklifts to get the older crowd up off the ground after some of these positions ... :)
I hope this takes off! I have been shooting CAS off and on for about 10 years and have some of the opinions as Carl on the redundancy of the stages. Western 3 Gun was a spin off that never took hold that was basically 3 gun Old West. I like the Dead Eye idea more, and hope this becomes a thing.
Myself and a friend were interested in Cowboy Action about 10 yr ago in our 20s and the cost barrier to entry was too high even with us splitting (and the argument over whether to get SAAs or Schofields). I’m really glad to see an update of the format that lowers the barriers, there are definitely young folk out there interested.
I looked into Cowboy Action Shooting because I really like lever guns and revolvers, but quite frankly I don't find it interesting because it's just a very formulaic quick shooting contest. The targets are always huge and very close, the ammo is loaded down to where there's no recoil. Sorry but I don't find that interesting enough to invest in two SA revolvers and a coach gun (I already have a lever gun).
I love cowboy guns but you've explained exactly why I've never done cowboy action shooting. I went to match and saw how little shooting skill actually played and how much buy to win there was. Come up here to Michigan we need this.
This also allows Dead Eye to be applicable in countries with very heavy restrictions on handgun ownership, like Canada. Lever action rifles in pistol calibres are still accessible, but revolvers are much, much more difficult if not outright impossible to come by. Not looking forward to reloading an older Henry Big Boy on the clock though!
For the folks that like the sound of roaring 20s deadeye you may like a wildbunch match if your local cowboy action group has such matches. Where you need regular power levels to make a 1911 function you can't load up 300 fps ultra light loads
I truly appreciate how you create events to make them accessible to the most people possible. You may not win, but you can compete and complete with entry level firearms or cheap hand-me-downs. It's refreshing to see events where you don't need a car loan worth of equipment just to enter
Very cool. Years ago I tried CAS a couple of times. Although fun, it just didn't trip my trigger. This concept just looks like a blast. Roaring 20s sounds like fun too. Thanks for the work and announcement of a new spin on an old sport.
Fantastic idea Karl, I've been hesitant to join SASS or endorse it because of the immense cost associated before you can get onto the range, something like this is desperately needed to get that new blood in!
My best friend and I wanted to get involved in CAS for years, but we never invested the time or money because of your exact complaints. We didn't think it was worth it when we could do that kind of shooting in the back yard. This is awesome Karl! Please bring this to North Texas if possible.
This is awesome! I'd love to see 3 gun start running matches with manual guns. Many of us own levers, bolts and revolvers (especially us fudds) but today many people state that these won't work. Learning to operate what you have and being accurate are quickly being replaced by speed and 6 inch groups. Keep bringing new/old things up!
I like the idea of the Dead Eye category within a 3-gun competition. Over on the SASS forum a few times a year a thread gets going about attracting new shooters. A lot of members will point out the same things you listed, i.e. 10-10-4, no challenge in hitting the target, a need for 4 guns, and if you want to win you will need 4 heavily modified guns, reloading is also a must. Members will post suggestions, but usually those threads devolve quickly and get locked by the moderators. Out of curiosity what was/is your SASS alias? I don't think you will attract any of the current SASS members, but you might spark an interest in the younger shooters that enjoy the modern westerns and video games.
Sass member, and I would Love to do this. Needs to be about more than who can afford the best tuned for speed guns. It’s all about who can spend the $$ now. Its disheartening.
I am right with you on this. Although I am in to old west guns and have been shooting black powder for years, I have never gotten into Cowboy Action Shooting because of a local Saturday match I attended once to check it out. Everyone was very friendly and desperate for new, younger blood to their sport, but the targets were laughably large and close and the day got repetitive and redundant real quick. In addition to 2 pistols, shotgun, and lever action rifle, everyone had spares for all of those guns, and they all needed to be tricked out to be competitive. Then, everyone was hauling around their now massive amount of gear on custom wooden carts. It became clear to me why nearly everyone there was senior citizen aged; it’s an expensive sport for retirees and in the end it wasn’t that interesting. I have been wanting to see variations to the sport; something that could be simpler and cheaper but at the same time more challenging than simply running against a clock.
This is awesome. I found out about Cowboy Action Shooting when I was 14 (I think) but it took me close to 8 years to acquire all 4 guns. I enjoy the sport when I have time to go, but this is really what I want it to be.
We're one step closer to the ultimate goal. A full 2gacm or db style match based entirely on old west tropes. Everything after 1910 is banned, attire must be period correct, train car stage, bank stage, saloon stage, wagon trail stage, you name it.
@beargillium2369 because I Googled "old west period" and the first result was a time frame that ended in 1912. The 1911 is a little bit too modern, in my opinion, but the 1903 pocket hammerless would be an interesting addition. The 1911 would be the "no drawbacks, free win" gun, but earlier semis have enough drawbacks to make revolvers competitive
@johntallarico5888 I mean, this hypothetical event would clearly be more about the aesthetic and feel of the old west. I'd personally put specific exemptions for guns that are clearly trying to emulate that period. As long as they don't have modern comforts like molded rubber grips, fiber optic sights, polymer stocks, or any nonsense like that. We like wood and iron around here.
even more hard core. you should be able to carry all the weapons and all the amo you want to use in that day. any you go in blind. so you don´t know how the stage looks. before you pick your gear.
This idea has been so badly needed for years! 😃👍I've been saying something similar for a long time. Cowboy Action events are extremely repetitive memory games with no real power factor requirement, dominated by very unrealistic period incorrect modifications and allowing for little creativity in stage execution (unlike USPSA). In your new game is there target shot order required like in Cowboy Action? Or are you just required to hit them all like in USPSA?
Depends on the stages. Sometimes we require target order, but for the most part it's just neutralizing the targets presented with whatever firearm is acceptable to engage that target with. We prevent shooting pistol targets with full power rifles, for example, but otherwise it's your choice. I chose to use my shotgun on the spinner/KD targets (usually), because of power, but I could have also used my lever gun or my pistols if I wished.
As someone who loves Cowboy Action Shooting (specifically Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter) but also enjoys the more dynamic and challenging nature of more modern/“tactical” multigun competitions, I am so thrilled to see that you are spearheading this new wave of Old West shooting! I absolutely hope to venture out west to a Brutality Match to shoot in the Deadeye division one day… but in the meantime, I’ll have to see if any of the CAS and/or multigun matches here in Florida would be interested in experimenting with the Deadeye concept!
This looks like so much fun. I’ve never had much interest in the modern 2-gun competitions. But this looks more fun to me. More challenging. Definitely more challenging than the current cowboy action shooting. Might have to give this a try next year.
This sounds incredible and really can't wait to give this a try! I've shot SASS for several years and while I enjoy it, I moved over to a group called the Grand Army of the Frontier when I lived in Nebraska for a bit and they were more focused on military firearms from the 19th century, so you saw a lot of Krags, Springfield's, and Spencer's being used. While I know it would be slower, I really hope a setup like you're creating would allow for more single shot rifles and carbines from the Civil War to be used and help better display the wide variety of firearms available in the American frontier during the period. I have a 59 Sharps conversion that I'd love to finally get in competition that isn't just long range shooting like at the Quigley match. Have you ever competed/wanted to compete in the Quigley shoot out in Montana?
The historical guns at matches is what caught my attention when Inrange first appeared. This is amazing, Karl! I truly admire your push to make practical shooting competition interesting and available to the commoner. That roaring twenties setup is making me eye a couple early 20th century revolvers I have... Having two people competing, one as a cop with a .38 revolver and some old kit, vs the n'er do-well with a 1911 and some wiz bang rifle like an auto 8 or a 1907 self loader.
I actually wanted to get into cowboy action shooting a few years ago but saw a lot of footage that looked like the first two clips and decided against it. Hope this new idea gains more traction
There is a club in Bowie Texas doing this sort of stuff as well. Not the "brutality" part, but building 3 gun around old guns, up to WW2 I think. Texas Doughboys I think is their name, look them up 👍🏻
You do make some good points, I'm VP of my CAS club and we are definitely cowboy action drag racing. Reson being, that's what draws the bigger crowds. Your stages look like a blast! I hope we get a brutality type club anywhere near here, I would love to do it.
That's real creative thinking man. I was lucky to shoot a couple times this year with a top shooter in cowboy action (great guy too) and and ran into him again at a state match in October. He was at the national championship earlier and I asked him how he liked it and all he said was "eh" lol he said the same thing. All it was was 10 10 4. Very plain too. No props or reactive targets or anything like that. I personally think out there in Arizona and down in Oklahoma is probably where it's the most gamey (atleast from the videos I've watched) up north here it's not as bad. At the new jersey state match we had a stage with 23 knockdowns and a plethora of different ways to shoot it. That was entertaining lol
This is friggin awesome!!! Glad you're doing this and I hope you can make this a huge new Division! Keep evolving the sports Karl, you're doing more for the shooting public than anyone else I can think of! Huzzah!
I shot CAS in the beginning at Coto de Caza for a few years. Got back into it four years ago. It’s definitely changed, but still fun. I’d love to try a Deadeye match.
I am just getting into CAS and The SASS... This video was on point... I was kinda discouraged when I found out about all the mods and light ammo May I suggest weight leagues ... cals and distance adjust. Edit: maybe 2 or 3 of the most popular rounds, and adjust the targets further back for the bigger bangs... just a thought.
I wish you all the best on your new style matches but I honestly don't see it replacing SASS matches any time soon. First, there are a LOT of shooters like me, 74 years old, two knee surgeries and one total hip replacement so far, so getting down on the ground then getting back up would be a challenge in itself! We shoot at a club in Show Low, AZ and along with the pistol, rifle, shotgun stages we have incorporated the plastic mesh barriers shown in your videos and frequently shoot what we call "Modern Cowboy" which is basically "10-10-4" with cowboy guns but with a lot of barriers, leaning out over corners, etc. and downrange movement just like the modern practical guys do.
This looks and sounds like an amazing event(s). "Using these weapons as they were intended" should be the motto of Dead Eye. I enjoy learning and watching anything about old west firearms, and this seems like a total blast. Well done, Karl.
I haven’t done this in years. In the 2000’s in central CA it was not formulaic at all. I love the Deadeye idea. And the Roarin’ 20’s. I think I’ll start looking back in to it.
Just fuc*ing THANK YOU. Despite my love for the guns and genre, I have hard passed on on CAS - for exactly the reasons you state. As for roaring twenties, I now rue the fact that I sold my 1917 Enfield safe queen last year.
Looks awesome! I do wish that current SASS shooting was less restrictive with regards to the number of firearms needed and the limited models that you can use with one another. I also like the idea of having a more dynamic shooting experience. However, I would probably prefer to see something in between the current standard and what you are doing.....my back and knees were hurting just watching you get up and down from the ground and running, haha.
I like it in concept. The one issue that I can foresee is the long stage times. If this achieves great popularity it could be hard to complete a regular match in one day with a lot of people participating. It also does not readily accommodate older people with mobility issues. That said, I wish we had something like this here in North Carolina.
Father of four, public servant, and been wanting to get into CAS for years. The ability to buy all the required guns is absolutely impeding for many people. I love this idea!
Awesome! Never knew the 10-10-4, but that was a primary reason I never invested in CASS decades ago. Glad for your foresight and innovation to the sport.
YES! For me this is sooo much compelling! It needs to be tweaked a bit to allow for safety rules and less mobile people, but this makes the meta of the spirt so much more complex and intriguing.
I really like this Idea! Modern cowboy action is very similar to Steel Challange in this respect, No surprises, no reloads on the clock and modify your equipment as much as possible. Stage layout is limited
Yes, indeed. And I've gotten push back when I've suggested maybe moving some of the targets to the max distance, or shooting one handed, or on one's weaker side. I try to bring different guns to each match, which keeps things a little more lively for me.
👍 I like the whole concept of your “Dead Eye” matches. I hope you have much success in expanding the interest in this variation of Cowboy Action Shooting.
This looked like so much fun. Two guys on my squad at CQB Brutality were doing deadeye, and I was kinda jealous. I think I might have to raid my Dad's safe for his C96 broomhandle to shoot in April... I also joined my local ICORE revolver group for a match this last weekend, and it was so much less challenging and dynamic than Brutality. Just "how much speed can you buy", it seemed like. I really loved shooting revolver class at Handgun Brutality, and am definitely doing it again in April.
I'm loving this. I've only shot one cowboy action match, and everything being new, I really enjoyed it. I've been very interested in getting more into that, but have been disappointed by the lack of dynamics to the point that I've never pulled the trigger (so to speak) on the required guns. This is exciting.
I love the Dead eye concept Karl! I enjoy old western guns. Already have the 1873 uberti in 357/38, 1875 Remington also in 357/38, and two 1873 SAA one in 357/38 the other in 22. And a coach shotgun in 12ga. So yeehaa from East Tennessee.🤠
Just came across your channel. This is the second video. The Walker being the first. I have been interested in the cowboy action shooting, for a little while now. But Gads what it takes to get into it. This would really be cool.
May I make a suggestion? I really like your new concept. I recently had a total knee replacement. I was told to never run on it unless my life depended on it. My suggestion maybe a little less running between stages. Just a suggestion...
Yes. This looks fantastic. I got out of CAS six or seven years ago for three reason: The time - 3 minutes of shooting vs. an hour drive each way and standing around for three hours basically doing nothing. The cost of gas, ammo (I reload) and range fee. And finally, it wasn't a shooting challenge but more of an ammo dump into comically close targets. The only reason I could see Dead Eye not catching on in some areas like mine is CAS has essentially turned into a geezer sport. Lots of seniors - hence the way too close targets and lack of movement on the stages.
Great job Karl. I always thought that modern mainstream "Cowboy Action Shooting" is LAME at best. And I have always been a big fan of what you guys are doing down in the Desert
This is awesome, I don't know if my Ruger New Vaquero would qualify but I would be interested in a Dead Eye match. I watch a few cowboy action matches after seeing the 10-10-4 concepts I decided against doing them as it seemed repetitive. Thank for setting this up. I start gathering my gear. Also now I gotta get everything in 38spc/357mag instead of 45LC LOL.
Been in SASS for a few years, only been to a couple matches as I'm paying off student loans, have a family and have cheap guns that don't all work at the same time😅 dead eye sounds right up my alley if it was closer to Kansas 😊
This looks exciting and the other events sound cool. Though I think one other thing you could look at doing is a 1700s style event. Probably not many people showing up for that but it would be fun.
There was a group of Cowboy Action Shooters in Renton, WA in the late 90's and early 200's that were hosting a similarly designed shoot. It wasn't an official SASS match, but it was extraordinarily fun.
I feel your pain. I was always second place in every discipline I have ever competed in. There was always someone better than I was on the day. hah. Cheers for the vid.
This sounds way more fun, half the issue of wanting to get into competition is that it looks like it gets stale really quickly and you wind up fighting for fractions of seconds to win, like it’s just kind of grindy
Karl had the biggest smile when he mentioned how much he loves old west cowboy guns. I'm freakin excited as hell for this. I hope to attend a match soon.
Great idea. The 4 firearm requirement has kept me away from Cowboy Action Shooting. It is something like a $2.5k starting cost for the guns and leather!
this is a lovely idea! Another thing I have always thought about cowboy action shooting is that the cartridges are way under loaded, it's like cheating... There should be matches where you have to shoot factory power cartridges and deal with the recoil they produce, especially in revolvers. If everyone is using standard pressure loads, then there's no advantage, or disadvantage involved between the competitors due to the load pressures and recoil. Of course, there should probably be a separate category for the 44 and 45 caliber loadings and the 38 caliber loadings, and there could also be a 31-32 caliber loading match.
One problem I see is that having a portion of the stage involving running excludes some handicapped or older shooters. That being said, the sport needs to evolve and adapt.
personally, i would LOVE to see a frontiers division with a muzzleloading and cartridge sub-division, requirement of 1 single shot rifle or shotgun and 1 handgun, targets ranging from close range for pistol/shotgun and long range for shotgun/rifle (slugs required on shotguns) and attempting to mimic some harsher conditions with extended running with or without weights added. im no expert in this so maybe that could be tweaked quite a bit to equal a fun way to bring single shot rifles and muzzleloaders into play, seeing people run a kentucky rifle, hawken or trap door and still have a good time would be amazing, you dont really see these being used outside of hunting or bench shooting these days but plenty of people had to use these in firefights back in the day and seeing how substantial of a feat that was would be amazing.
I think you're on the right track but it would eliminate people who are older or even handicapped from competing. I think somewhere between the two extremes would work out good. More focus on marksmanship and reloads would help also.
Charlie Utter SASS #18818 here. 25 years in SASS this year, and I really like this idea! It is definitely not the same sport it was when I started. This would be a great way to bring more people into the sport and a lot more fun! Bravo! Back in the 90's, when I ran an indoor shooting range, we created a club called PEAS..Prohibition Era Action Shooters. It was very successful with lots of classic 1911s, revolvers, Thompsons, etc. The ladies really loved seeing all the shooters dressed to the nines in roaring 20's suits. It was a great time!
Gads, those first two cowboy shooting clips looked boring as hell. I completely see your point and agree with you, the sport needs more variety and realism.
looks as fun as looking at seeing paint dry.
@@Wildwest89i've also seen some really young kids doing it as well, which is good. But yeah, as soon as they can start memorizing more than 3 numbers, it may become a bit boring.
Yup, very dull stages in a sandpit, can be done much better. Our stages tend to be a bit more exciting, shooting out of a stagecoach, in the chapel or saloon, Texas star, can poppers etc. Our annual "shotgun city" is 28 rounds in one stage through a maze that you don't know the layout of.
@@VikOlliver Niiiice! That's the sort of setup that should be the norm, not the exception.
@@Panzersoldat Yeah, it's Hollywood mostly, and needs theatre. Most clubs tend to have one "cool thing" they do - firing from a moving train, a twisty alleyway, firing a cannon or dynamite etc., even just putting flour in the can popper cans adds something extra. Sadly, some have more limited facilities.
Glad to see people speaking up about this. We need more old west firearms users. The cowboy action shooting of today looks so bland.
I'd like that but the guns are so expensive.
@@czjonny8933 The replicas are more affordable.
@@czjonny8933
Agreed. The ones that are most affordable are the revolvers by Peita and Uberti. Generally between 500-800$. Even then, it’s gonna be more than your standard 9mm.
it looks bland as a viewer, but as a participant it's anything but that. The beauty is in learning the weapons and practicing to be quick and effective with them. Its harder than it looks.
@@SavannahGunGuy
Dang where’s the challenge of hitting stationary targets at ten feet , 😂
I am S.A.S.S. 9512 Life. I did the Mounted Shooting. We even wrote the rules for Mounted Cart Shooting. I am in total agreement with you. Make the stages FUN again. I remember going to E.O.T. in late 1980's when just going and having fun was enough for many.
Nice
S.A.S.S. 18818 here. I agree with you 100%!
114210 here. I think it's a great idea.
The guys on the SASS wire forum are jerks too. Their moderator runs off so many younger members because they are all set in their ways and want to moderate every comment unless it is the old cronies
@wildernessrecon yeah, make sure you use the exact shotgun primers for your shells
The CAS club I go to does 10-10-4 but with modifications like shooting from a electric horse, using a derringer or throwing a knife during the stage. I also went to one CAS match prepared by my buddies where we had spinners, shooting Long rangę from bushes and clearing a kill house with revovlers 😀
I have never participated in Cowboy action shooting because of it becoming a boring close range timed event. I own all the guns for it, but have only shot them with full loads for accuracy @25 yds - 100 yds. One time I even shot my 1860 Uberti Henry in a 200 yd. silhouette event. My muzzle loading club used to shoot matches at 50 yds. only. When I became vice president, I included targets @25, 50,and 100 yds. for some variety. This pissed off the members who were only there to win, and did not want to deal with any challenges. Fortunately most of our shooters enjoyed a challenge. For me accuracy has always been my motivation. Shooting at targets so close that you could throw stones at and hit is preposterous. Thank you for this video.
A "Roaring 20s Deadeye" event sounds fantastic! I'm looking forward to a video on that one. I feel like that's something the historical shooting events have overlooked a bit, or that don't get enough attention. What a great idea!! Thank you for this. 🙂
Check out AZSA the American Zoot Shooters Association. They've been doing the Roaring Twenties shooting for a couple of decades already.
I love the flexibility of firearms. I help run local cowboy matches and one major reason that it is hard to get people to participate is the requirement of 2 revolvers, shotgun, and lever action. And as you mentioned in many cases there are many modifications done to the firearms which further dissuades people from getting involved in the sport.
Just speaking for myself here, but I just cant afford to drop 2-3 grand on guns and gear. Thats the biggest thing that has kept me out of it
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who has had an issue with it. I wanted to try a sass shoot but I didn't have the very specific types of guns they required and dropping thousands on a Replica shotgun and rifle was out of the cards.
I shot cowboy action about 20 years ago for a bit. I had no idea it degraded to such a level. I did it for fun. Shooting from bathtubs and other stage props. I remember shot gun targets that the 1st shot launched a pop can in the air for your second shot. That deadeye division looks really fun. I may have to break out the lever action, Vaqueros, and coach gun and head to Idaho for the match up there
At 73, I don't run and tumble as quickly as I did 50 years ago. But I can still shoot as well if not better. (I've had *lots* of practice. LOL) Finally I have all the hardware I need for CAS except mobility! Oh, well! Thanks for the video, Karl!
Used to design matches at my gunclub. People complained when I put the targets further than the minimuim distance. Also didn't care for the 10-10-4 format all the time. Would always spice things up with sometimes an all shotgun stage (between 8-12 rds) or forced reloads (load 8 in rifle with 10 targets). Eventually got out of CAS due to gamers and the simplification of the courses. BTW we built a cowboy town for our matches so we had lots of props. I believe that makes a difference as shooting at other clubs with generic ranges (watching your matches looked pretty generic) isn't nearly as much fun.
Glad to see move of a physical element to cowboy action shooting for a change rather than moving 10 feet to the next table. I as a shooter in my early 30's never participated in cowboy although had an interest due to the fact of little to no movement, no more than shooting a high power match. Hopefully this catches on in a larger scale, I definitely would get into this!
I'm glad to see that other people are wanting a change in CAS. I've always had an idea of creating a marksman match for 1899 and prior pattern rifles. 150 to 500 yard range or so.
black powder silhouette
This seems like a nice addition to the sport of Old West firearms, especially for the younger folk. The promoters will need to provide cranes and forklifts to get the older crowd up off the ground after some of these positions ... :)
I hope this takes off! I have been shooting CAS off and on for about 10 years and have some of the opinions as Carl on the redundancy of the stages. Western 3 Gun was a spin off that never took hold that was basically 3 gun Old West. I like the Dead Eye idea more, and hope this becomes a thing.
Myself and a friend were interested in Cowboy Action about 10 yr ago in our 20s and the cost barrier to entry was too high even with us splitting (and the argument over whether to get SAAs or Schofields). I’m really glad to see an update of the format that lowers the barriers, there are definitely young folk out there interested.
I looked into Cowboy Action Shooting because I really like lever guns and revolvers, but quite frankly I don't find it interesting because it's just a very formulaic quick shooting contest. The targets are always huge and very close, the ammo is loaded down to where there's no recoil. Sorry but I don't find that interesting enough to invest in two SA revolvers and a coach gun (I already have a lever gun).
I love cowboy guns but you've explained exactly why I've never done cowboy action shooting. I went to match and saw how little shooting skill actually played and how much buy to win there was.
Come up here to Michigan we need this.
brutalitymatches.org
This also allows Dead Eye to be applicable in countries with very heavy restrictions on handgun ownership, like Canada. Lever action rifles in pistol calibres are still accessible, but revolvers are much, much more difficult if not outright impossible to come by. Not looking forward to reloading an older Henry Big Boy on the clock though!
For the folks that like the sound of roaring 20s deadeye you may like a wildbunch match if your local cowboy action group has such matches.
Where you need regular power levels to make a 1911 function you can't load up 300 fps ultra light loads
I truly appreciate how you create events to make them accessible to the most people possible. You may not win, but you can compete and complete with entry level firearms or cheap hand-me-downs. It's refreshing to see events where you don't need a car loan worth of equipment just to enter
Very cool. Years ago I tried CAS a couple of times. Although fun, it just didn't trip my trigger. This concept just looks like a blast. Roaring 20s sounds like fun too. Thanks for the work and announcement of a new spin on an old sport.
Fantastic idea Karl, I've been hesitant to join SASS or endorse it because of the immense cost associated before you can get onto the range, something like this is desperately needed to get that new blood in!
This would absolutely be a pleasant alternative to the formulaic stages in current CAS.
My best friend and I wanted to get involved in CAS for years, but we never invested the time or money because of your exact complaints. We didn't think it was worth it when we could do that kind of shooting in the back yard. This is awesome Karl! Please bring this to North Texas if possible.
This looks a lot more like what three gun was meant to be, or could have been. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where this goes.
Outstanding. My buddy and I got disillusioned by how cowboy action shooting evolved and just quit. This is more
I've it! Congratulations
This is awesome! I'd love to see 3 gun start running matches with manual guns. Many of us own levers, bolts and revolvers (especially us fudds) but today many people state that these won't work. Learning to operate what you have and being accurate are quickly being replaced by speed and 6 inch groups. Keep bringing new/old things up!
I like the idea of the Dead Eye category within a 3-gun competition. Over on the SASS forum a few times a year a thread gets going about attracting new shooters. A lot of members will point out the same things you listed, i.e. 10-10-4, no challenge in hitting the target, a need for 4 guns, and if you want to win you will need 4 heavily modified guns, reloading is also a must. Members will post suggestions, but usually those threads devolve quickly and get locked by the moderators. Out of curiosity what was/is your SASS alias? I don't think you will attract any of the current SASS members, but you might spark an interest in the younger shooters that enjoy the modern westerns and video games.
Sass member, and I would Love to do this. Needs to be about more than who can afford the best tuned for speed guns. It’s all about who can spend the $$ now. Its disheartening.
I am right with you on this.
Although I am in to old west guns and have been shooting black powder for years, I have never gotten into Cowboy Action Shooting because of a local Saturday match I attended once to check it out.
Everyone was very friendly and desperate for new, younger blood to their sport, but the targets were laughably large and close and the day got repetitive and redundant real quick.
In addition to 2 pistols, shotgun, and lever action rifle, everyone had spares for all of those guns, and they all needed to be tricked out to be competitive.
Then, everyone was hauling around their now massive amount of gear on custom wooden carts.
It became clear to me why nearly everyone there was senior citizen aged; it’s an expensive sport for retirees and in the end it wasn’t that interesting.
I have been wanting to see variations to the sport; something that could be simpler and cheaper but at the same time more challenging than simply running against a clock.
This is awesome. I found out about Cowboy Action Shooting when I was 14 (I think) but it took me close to 8 years to acquire all 4 guns. I enjoy the sport when I have time to go, but this is really what I want it to be.
We're one step closer to the ultimate goal. A full 2gacm or db style match based entirely on old west tropes. Everything after 1910 is banned, attire must be period correct, train car stage, bank stage, saloon stage, wagon trail stage, you name it.
Why 1910?
@beargillium2369 because I Googled "old west period" and the first result was a time frame that ended in 1912. The 1911 is a little bit too modern, in my opinion, but the 1903 pocket hammerless would be an interesting addition. The 1911 would be the "no drawbacks, free win" gun, but earlier semis have enough drawbacks to make revolvers competitive
so no more Ruger Blackhawks
@johntallarico5888 I mean, this hypothetical event would clearly be more about the aesthetic and feel of the old west. I'd personally put specific exemptions for guns that are clearly trying to emulate that period. As long as they don't have modern comforts like molded rubber grips, fiber optic sights, polymer stocks, or any nonsense like that. We like wood and iron around here.
even more hard core. you should be able to carry all the weapons and all the amo you want to use in that day. any you go in blind. so you don´t know how the stage looks. before you pick your gear.
This idea has been so badly needed for years! 😃👍I've been saying something similar for a long time. Cowboy Action events are extremely repetitive memory games with no real power factor requirement, dominated by very unrealistic period incorrect modifications and allowing for little creativity in stage execution (unlike USPSA). In your new game is there target shot order required like in Cowboy Action? Or are you just required to hit them all like in USPSA?
Depends on the stages. Sometimes we require target order, but for the most part it's just neutralizing the targets presented with whatever firearm is acceptable to engage that target with. We prevent shooting pistol targets with full power rifles, for example, but otherwise it's your choice.
I chose to use my shotgun on the spinner/KD targets (usually), because of power, but I could have also used my lever gun or my pistols if I wished.
@@InrangeTv That makes sense.
As someone who loves Cowboy Action Shooting (specifically Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter) but also enjoys the more dynamic and challenging nature of more modern/“tactical” multigun competitions, I am so thrilled to see that you are spearheading this new wave of Old West shooting!
I absolutely hope to venture out west to a Brutality Match to shoot in the Deadeye division one day… but in the meantime, I’ll have to see if any of the CAS and/or multigun matches here in Florida would be interested in experimenting with the Deadeye concept!
Love the concept. Looks much more challenging.
There is also no "right way" to do things.
Great for Australia too. Pistols are harder to license here
This looks like so much fun. I’ve never had much interest in the modern 2-gun competitions. But this looks more fun to me. More challenging. Definitely more challenging than the current cowboy action shooting. Might have to give this a try next year.
This sounds incredible and really can't wait to give this a try! I've shot SASS for several years and while I enjoy it, I moved over to a group called the Grand Army of the Frontier when I lived in Nebraska for a bit and they were more focused on military firearms from the 19th century, so you saw a lot of Krags, Springfield's, and Spencer's being used. While I know it would be slower, I really hope a setup like you're creating would allow for more single shot rifles and carbines from the Civil War to be used and help better display the wide variety of firearms available in the American frontier during the period. I have a 59 Sharps conversion that I'd love to finally get in competition that isn't just long range shooting like at the Quigley match.
Have you ever competed/wanted to compete in the Quigley shoot out in Montana?
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The historical guns at matches is what caught my attention when Inrange first appeared. This is amazing, Karl! I truly admire your push to make practical shooting competition interesting and available to the commoner. That roaring twenties setup is making me eye a couple early 20th century revolvers I have... Having two people competing, one as a cop with a .38 revolver and some old kit, vs the n'er do-well with a 1911 and some wiz bang rifle like an auto 8 or a 1907 self loader.
I actually wanted to get into cowboy action shooting a few years ago but saw a lot of footage that looked like the first two clips and decided against it. Hope this new idea gains more traction
There is a club in Bowie Texas doing this sort of stuff as well. Not the "brutality" part, but building 3 gun around old guns, up to WW2 I think. Texas Doughboys I think is their name, look them up 👍🏻
You do make some good points, I'm VP of my CAS club and we are definitely cowboy action drag racing. Reson being, that's what draws the bigger crowds. Your stages look like a blast! I hope we get a brutality type club anywhere near here, I would love to do it.
I support this 1000% Looking forward to participating one day. And that 1920's event you mentioned, oh HELL YEAH!!!!!
That's real creative thinking man. I was lucky to shoot a couple times this year with a top shooter in cowboy action (great guy too) and and ran into him again at a state match in October. He was at the national championship earlier and I asked him how he liked it and all he said was "eh" lol he said the same thing. All it was was 10 10 4. Very plain too. No props or reactive targets or anything like that. I personally think out there in Arizona and down in Oklahoma is probably where it's the most gamey (atleast from the videos I've watched) up north here it's not as bad. At the new jersey state match we had a stage with 23 knockdowns and a plethora of different ways to shoot it. That was entertaining lol
Plus the biggest downfall of this is all the old timers in our sport. You know they can't get up and down from the ground like that haha
This is friggin awesome!!! Glad you're doing this and I hope you can make this a huge new Division! Keep evolving the sports Karl, you're doing more for the shooting public than anyone else I can think of! Huzzah!
I shot CAS in the beginning at Coto de Caza for a few years. Got back into it four years ago. It’s definitely changed, but still fun. I’d love to try a Deadeye match.
Man, that looks like fun! I like the challenging factor. Keep up the good work. I’m a fan.
I am just getting into CAS and The SASS... This video was on point... I was kinda discouraged when I found out about all the mods and light ammo
May I suggest weight leagues ... cals and distance adjust.
Edit: maybe 2 or 3 of the most popular rounds, and adjust the targets further back for the bigger bangs... just a thought.
I wish you all the best on your new style matches but I honestly don't see it replacing SASS matches any time soon. First, there are a LOT of shooters like me, 74 years old, two knee surgeries and one total hip replacement so far, so getting down on the ground then getting back up would be a challenge in itself! We shoot at a club in Show Low, AZ and along with the pistol, rifle, shotgun stages we have incorporated the plastic mesh barriers shown in your videos and frequently shoot what we call "Modern Cowboy" which is basically "10-10-4" with cowboy guns but with a lot of barriers, leaning out over corners, etc. and downrange movement just like the modern practical guys do.
making cowboy action look more of a fun shooting sport than a trickshooting/performance. Looks a great deal of fun.
I hope this catches on! I started shooting CAS in the early 90s. Just recently returned, the sport is vastly different from what it once was.
Deadeye matches look awesome! Best of luck getting that out there.
Fingers crossed!
This looks and sounds like an amazing event(s). "Using these weapons as they were intended" should be the motto of Dead Eye. I enjoy learning and watching anything about old west firearms, and this seems like a total blast. Well done, Karl.
I haven’t done this in years. In the 2000’s in central CA it was not formulaic at all. I love the Deadeye idea. And the Roarin’ 20’s. I think I’ll start looking back in to it.
Just fuc*ing THANK YOU. Despite my love for the guns and genre, I have hard passed on on CAS - for exactly the reasons you state.
As for roaring twenties, I now rue the fact that I sold my 1917 Enfield safe queen last year.
Looks awesome! I do wish that current SASS shooting was less restrictive with regards to the number of firearms needed and the limited models that you can use with one another. I also like the idea of having a more dynamic shooting experience. However, I would probably prefer to see something in between the current standard and what you are doing.....my back and knees were hurting just watching you get up and down from the ground and running, haha.
I like it in concept. The one issue that I can foresee is the long stage times. If this achieves great popularity it could be hard to complete a regular match in one day with a lot of people participating. It also does not readily accommodate older people with mobility issues. That said, I wish we had something like this here in North Carolina.
Very much looking forward to the videos from these matches 🙂
I’d love to see this expand!
Working on it! join us! :)
Father of four, public servant, and been wanting to get into CAS for years. The ability to buy all the required guns is absolutely impeding for many people. I love this idea!
Awesome! Never knew the 10-10-4, but that was a primary reason I never invested in CASS decades ago. Glad for your foresight and innovation to the sport.
This looks amazing. I hope it takes off.
Dead eye looks so much fun, so much stress and so much closer to reality...I would love to join any day! Awesome!
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Loved the back to back run comparison!
Thanks for the vid. Nice to see someone making these video with in my age range.
Glad you enjoyed it!
YES! For me this is sooo much compelling!
It needs to be tweaked a bit to allow for safety rules and less mobile people, but this makes the meta of the spirt so much more complex and intriguing.
I really like this Idea! Modern cowboy action is very similar to Steel Challange in this respect, No surprises, no reloads on the clock and modify your equipment as much as possible. Stage layout is limited
Yes, indeed. And I've gotten push back when I've suggested maybe moving some of the targets to the max distance, or shooting one handed, or on one's weaker side.
I try to bring different guns to each match, which keeps things a little more lively for me.
👍 I like the whole concept of your “Dead Eye” matches. I hope you have much success in expanding the interest in this variation of Cowboy Action Shooting.
This looked like so much fun. Two guys on my squad at CQB Brutality were doing deadeye, and I was kinda jealous. I think I might have to raid my Dad's safe for his C96 broomhandle to shoot in April...
I also joined my local ICORE revolver group for a match this last weekend, and it was so much less challenging and dynamic than Brutality. Just "how much speed can you buy", it seemed like. I really loved shooting revolver class at Handgun Brutality, and am definitely doing it again in April.
I'm loving this. I've only shot one cowboy action match, and everything being new, I really enjoyed it. I've been very interested in getting more into that, but have been disappointed by the lack of dynamics to the point that I've never pulled the trigger (so to speak) on the required guns. This is exciting.
Great job Karl, this looks fantastic!
Thanks a bunch!
I love the Dead eye concept Karl! I enjoy old western guns. Already have the 1873 uberti in 357/38, 1875 Remington also in 357/38, and two 1873 SAA one in 357/38 the other in 22. And a coach shotgun in 12ga.
So yeehaa from East Tennessee.🤠
So cool! Looks 10x more exciting than the ways it's been done. Nice job!
Thank you for breathing some life into CAS! I truly hope “Deadeye” takes off and becomes a mainstay of CAS around the world.
You and me both!
Just came across your channel. This is the second video. The Walker being the first. I have been interested in the cowboy action shooting, for a little while now. But Gads what it takes to get into it. This would really be cool.
May I make a suggestion? I really like your new concept. I recently had a total knee replacement. I was told to never run on it unless my life depended on it. My suggestion maybe a little less running between stages. Just a suggestion...
This looks genuinely fun and exciting, great stuff
Yes. This looks fantastic. I got out of CAS six or seven years ago for three reason: The time - 3 minutes of shooting vs. an hour drive each way and standing around for three hours basically doing nothing. The cost of gas, ammo (I reload) and range fee. And finally, it wasn't a shooting challenge but more of an ammo dump into comically close targets. The only reason I could see Dead Eye not catching on in some areas like mine is CAS has essentially turned into a geezer sport. Lots of seniors - hence the way too close targets and lack of movement on the stages.
Great job Karl. I always thought that modern mainstream "Cowboy Action Shooting" is LAME at best. And I have always been a big fan of what you guys are doing down in the Desert
This is awesome, I don't know if my Ruger New Vaquero would qualify but I would be interested in a Dead Eye match. I watch a few cowboy action matches after seeing the 10-10-4 concepts I decided against doing them as it seemed repetitive. Thank for setting this up. I start gathering my gear. Also now I gotta get everything in 38spc/357mag instead of 45LC LOL.
Been in SASS for a few years, only been to a couple matches as I'm paying off student loans, have a family and have cheap guns that don't all work at the same time😅 dead eye sounds right up my alley if it was closer to Kansas 😊
This was definitely be new and exciting to CAS
Karl: You're going to need to use your sights in deadeye division
Me: Dry practicing swinging a chair at some barrels
make the world you want! great job Karl!
This looks exciting and the other events sound cool. Though I think one other thing you could look at doing is a 1700s style event. Probably not many people showing up for that but it would be fun.
There was a group of Cowboy Action Shooters in Renton, WA in the late 90's and early 200's that were hosting a similarly designed shoot. It wasn't an official SASS match, but it was extraordinarily fun.
I feel your pain. I was always second place in every discipline I have ever competed in. There was always someone better than I was on the day. hah. Cheers for the vid.
This sounds way more fun, half the issue of wanting to get into competition is that it looks like it gets stale really quickly and you wind up fighting for fractions of seconds to win, like it’s just kind of grindy
What an absolutely amazing evolution of CAS!
Karl had the biggest smile when he mentioned how much he loves old west cowboy guns. I'm freakin excited as hell for this. I hope to attend a match soon.
This is great! Might even be a more accessible kind of competition with the current laws here in Canada
That range you were shooting at around the 10 minute mark is a fantastic set up for a range.
Great idea. The 4 firearm requirement has kept me away from Cowboy Action Shooting. It is something like a $2.5k starting cost for the guns and leather!
this is a lovely idea!
Another thing I have always thought about cowboy action shooting is that the cartridges are way under loaded, it's like cheating... There should be matches where you have to shoot factory power cartridges and deal with the recoil they produce, especially in revolvers. If everyone is using standard pressure loads, then there's no advantage, or disadvantage involved between the competitors due to the load pressures and recoil. Of course, there should probably be a separate category for the 44 and 45 caliber loadings and the 38 caliber loadings, and there could also be a 31-32 caliber loading match.
One problem I see is that having a portion of the stage involving running excludes some handicapped or older shooters. That being said, the sport needs to evolve and adapt.
Good to see the video that came about from that post the other day.
personally, i would LOVE to see a frontiers division with a muzzleloading and cartridge sub-division, requirement of 1 single shot rifle or shotgun and 1 handgun, targets ranging from close range for pistol/shotgun and long range for shotgun/rifle (slugs required on shotguns) and attempting to mimic some harsher conditions with extended running with or without weights added.
im no expert in this so maybe that could be tweaked quite a bit to equal a fun way to bring single shot rifles and muzzleloaders into play, seeing people run a kentucky rifle, hawken or trap door and still have a good time would be amazing, you dont really see these being used outside of hunting or bench shooting these days but plenty of people had to use these in firefights back in the day and seeing how substantial of a feat that was would be amazing.
Deadeye looks super fun! Love the idea!
looks Fun. That shotgun started fowling up real quick, really challenging.
I think you have a winner there sir.
That sounds awesome. I wanted to start CAS but the format sort of turned me off, this sounds like something I would very much be interested in.
I think you're on the right track but it would eliminate people who are older or even handicapped from competing. I think somewhere between the two extremes would work out good. More focus on marksmanship and reloads would help also.