Great video, Mark! Ever since I heard you talk about people who knew how to "rip it, but keep it in," I've been experimenting on how to do the same. The technique you're demonstrating seems to be the key. Really appreciate the slo-mo, too!
Nice! Yes, the topspin serve can be pretty effective. Do you get our newsletter? It's got tips, tricks, articles and more. You can find it at thirdshotsports.com/newsletter
I read the newsletter "top to bottom!" I wish you lived in San Antonio to coach me! Alas, I shall have to rely on your wonderful posts, newsletters, and TH-cam videos to continue the improvement you made to my game at the day clinic in San Antonio. It was awesome!
Great video as always. I love using topspin on my serve and return if possible because it allows me to hit so much harder and still stay in bounds. Correct me if I am wrong but it also seems to make wind conditions matter less.
Thanks again, Mark, for sharing your techniques(especially the slo-mo) It seems that you're not hitting the ball in the center of paddle. Is this by design? If the handle is pointed down, your sweet spot seems to be at about 10 o'clock. Can you elaborate please?
+Larry See Hey Larry. Good eyes! I'm not entirely sure why I hit it their (probably a lack of skill!). The ball has to be struck below waist high. As you can see in the video, I'm pretty close to crossing that line and almost certainly would be if the ball hit directly in the centre when swinging up on the ball as much as I need to to get good topspin. I think this off-centre hit is done in order to make sure contact is legal. At least I think that is what is going on!
+Jim Jr44 hi Jim. Thanks. I'm happy to hear that. I invite you to join our newsletter. We have vids, articles, contest and more. Just go to thirdshotsports.com/newsletter
You are describing the classic tennis topspin. You can create better topspin if you feel like you are brushing under the ball with an upward motion then finish over your shoulder rather than the backside tennis style, feeling like you are coming over the ball with the follow through driving out at your opponent. This also looks more legal since you are using an upward motion.
Interesting comment and thank you for watching. We would love to see a video of the technique you are describing since we are having trouble picturing "brushing under the ball with an upward motion". Following through the way you describe is fine but because the ball has already left the paddle with whatever spin it has by the time the followthrough takes place, it doesn't actually impact the amount of spin imparted on the ball. That said, the steepness of the swing path along with the speed of the paddle at the moment of impact are what determine the amount of spin produced. Finally, we would say that when it comes to serving legality, a serve either IS legal or ISN'T-- there isn't a spectrum. The serves in this video meet the criteria for a legal serve.
nice Mark...i've seen some topspin serves that really push the "proper" serve motion allowed by the rules...it's a great weapon, but needs to be done with the upwards motion....would love to hear your comments... :)
Hi Gene. It goes without saying that a serve should follow the rules. A topspin serve can ONLY be hit with an upward (low-to-high) path. The topspin comes only when an upward path is used (a level path and a downward path, apart from being illegal in PB, prohibit topspin). If there are any rules people need to watch out for on this serve it is the height of impact (must be below waist) and the top of the paddle not being above the wrist at impact. This last rule is the one most likely to be broken as players continue to push the limits. With careful attention to dropping the paddle head, a good (and legal) topspin serve can be developed.
Mark: As a coach from another spinny racket sport you should mention where the contact point is for paddle on the ball to produce the spin. I like to call it above or below the equator.
Simply put, if the handle (grip ) is below the wrist and your paddle face is below the handle then it should follow that all of the paddle face will therefore be below the wrist at contact. Just make sure all of this allows the contact to be made below your navel or belly button.On another note I fool around w/sidespin a bit more than w/topspin, sometimes both concurrently. It seems more players find it harder to deal w/sidespin than topspin especially if it also has underspin in it. At the end of the day all of it is tons of fun if players stop contesting every little thing rather than be up to the simple challenge it presents.That's the approach I take even on the 'slingshot' (a virtual double hit in one smooth motion) serve or return. I've been on both sides of that shot and often it's hard to define, in order to call it. What do you say about it Mark? And Thanks!
Thanks for your comments. The 'slingshot' eh? I suppose that's as good a name as any. I rarely see it happen on the serve. Do you know anyone that can hit that way intentionally and consistently? If so, I'd love to see some video footage of it.
Thanks for the vid and your comments below. I’ve been working w a local pro Scott Tingley who maintains its best to play w one stroke - continental. That has worked fine for all strokes except forehand drives and forehand serves. As a former tennis player w a semi-western forehand, hitting forehands with a continental grip has been a mess. From the comments below, you state that closing the face a little to an Eastern grip is a good idea on the serve. How about on a forehand drive shot that I might use on a service return? Btw I don’t spend a lot of time in the back court at all, but there do seem to be times to use a strong forehand drive ground stroke, right?Also, just purchased your drills and games pdf for a practice buddy and I to use as we stealthily try to improve our games. Good stuff!! Thanks for putting it out there.
Scott is a strong player and we imagine a solid coach. It is our opinion that when playing powerful shots with the forehand (especially if disguising it isn't a key priority), then an eastern grip makes a lot of sense. As you explained, the slight turn allows the paddle face to close while allowing the impact point to be out front. Additionally, with the hand slightly behind the handle, this puts you in a stronger hitting position. In fact, some players even use the eastern grip on FH volleys for exactly this reason. We're not totally sold on the idea, however. You can see more about it here. th-cam.com/video/QiRqHgzp3vs/w-d-xo.html .
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Yes, Scott is an excellent coach. Everyone has their own abilities, gifts, styles, etc. I think I’ll use an Eastern on my forehand serves and drives. The hand there feels so much stronger. As for on a volley - no thank you! No time to make a grip change in that part of the court. Thanks again.
Hello again Mark, Thanks for your quick reply. I got this from the International Federation of Pickleball rule book. To me that means no part of paddle face can be above wrist. I've even wondered if a Chinese Table Tennis grip could be legal? (sorry, off on tangent) 4.A.1. Underhand Defined. The arm must be moving in an upward arc and the paddle head shall be below the wrist when it strikes the ball (paddle head is that part of the paddle excluding handle. The highest point of the paddle head cannot be above any part of line formed where the wrist joint bends). (revised Feb. 1, 2013)
right. it's all about the face. so the handle location in relation to the wrist appears to be irrelevant to this rule. So go ahead and experiment with those grips!
Thanks for the videos, I know perfecting the correct motion will take some practice to avoid be called for an illegal serve. I'm still new the sport so I don't encounter a lot of topspin, however having played a lot of table tennis my way to play against a top spin serve was to counter with a top spin serve.....otherwise I would pop the ball up. Should I use the same approach in Pickleball for returning a topspin serve, because I know they generally come at a higher velocity than any other serve.
+ncoutlander what seems to work for me is to counter the topspin with a backspin to the kitchen. Here I'm adding more spin to the ball instead of reversing the spin.
I just started the game. I've played ping pong & tennis my whole life. I hit aggressive topspin, and tonight was called on illegal serve. I don't want to be categorized as having a serve on the boarder of illegal. Many of the comments discussed here seem to focus on the upward action, but don't address the legality of the handle above the paddle. Technically, my handle is above the paddle, but probably not completely above the paddle. There seems to be a fine line for the handle paddle angle that seems open do debate. The rules on serving don't specify which part of the handle needs to be above the paddle. The entire handle? That would be an easier call to make. Even some of the slow motion serves in this vid seem to be borderline? I'd like to hear your input. Thanks Much. Joe
I'm not sure what you mean about the "handle above the paddle". The rule is that no part of the paddle be above the wrist at the moment of contact. Generally, it is the paddle face -- not handle -- that causes the infraction. The handle is in your hand and since you usually hold at the end of the grip, if the face is below the wrist, the handle would be too. Perhaps I'm missing something. If you have a pic of what you're talking about feel free to email it to me at mark@thirdshotsports.com
It seems like a player that uses a continental grip for groundstrokes could use an eastern grip to hit a more effective topspin serve. Two reasons: first, hitting forehands with a continental grip is a “wristier”shot, therefore more likely to have technical problems. Second, following a serve is one of the few cases where you have enough time to change your grip after the shot.
yes. the eastern forehand is preferred both because it provides more stability and it is much easier to have a perpendicular paddle face with a forward impact point.
Great video! Thanks Mark. This explains topspin well! Do you have a video explaining underspin or bottomspin? I did a wee search but can't find anything. I'm guessing the opposite happens - the ball will go higher and further? So is there a time we would ever use it? Thanks in advance for any help.
Are there only rules for where you stand when you serve and not where you make contact with the ball? So you can lean over the sidelines or centerline to increase your angle?
Mark, is it true that using top spin to a right handed opponent will be an advantage to that opponent because the ball will be guided to his/her forehand? Instead a "cut spin" will make the ball spin away from a right handed opponent. I usually will hit a top spin shot to left handed players and a "cut spin" to right handed players. Your thoughts please.
Good question. Controlling the direction of the serve is a great idea and sidespin makes the ball jump a little one way or another! You can, however, hit spinning shots (including serves) all sorts of directions with the same spin. Check out this video to see how direction is controlled by the paddle angle, not the spin.. th-cam.com/video/rItbVuaNej8/w-d-xo.html
Really like your topics, content and presentation on PB. As in tennis, another advantage of topspin is it helps control the ball on windy days by countering a lot of effect from the wind. Also UNDER spin is good when you need time to get to the kitchen, by "floating the ball deep and the underspin tends to keep it aloft a bit longer (2-3 steps?).
I have tried bending down, using a bowling ball approach low to the ground, putting a mild top spin on the ball as I toss it up, giving a very legal serve, having a hard effective deep top spin serve as a result.. This Tom the Mop, not Debbie giving a comment.
+Debbie Doty Hi Tom! I'm glad it is working for you. Most people have trouble getting topspin on a serve with the "bowling action" because it is difficult -- but not impossible -- to accelerate the paddle upwards from this position. You'll notice that virtually all of the top players use a more sideways approach. I'm glad you've found a way to make it work! I invite you to join our newsletter. It can be found at thirdshotsports.com/newsletter. Thanks for writing!
I have tried this with an eastern grip, but the continental works better. Pronating your wrist gives you that extra whip that accelerates the paddle head.
That's interesting and we're glad to hear you've found success. However, the continental grip is not used by top players when hitting topspin serves. It is not that it cannot be done, but the slight closed paddle face that an Eastern grip gives makes it easier to make contact in front -- which is a strong hitting position -- without the paddle face opening. It is the same reason why strong tennis players hitting topspin forehands (which is essentially what a PB serve is) haven't used eastern grips since the 1960s. Anyway, thank you for watching and good luck on the court!
After playing today, a player said my serve was illegal because I was putting spin on the serve. What? I've been playing 39 years and I always put spin on my serve! Top spin for a drive serve, underspin for a dink serve, side spin for a fade serve! I still haven't seen a rule that says the serve cannot have spin! What's your take? Thanks for your insight!
Lindy Brooks hi Brooks. Thanks for watching! As far as we could tell, these serves we’re all ok. Remember, the rule is that the highest part of the paddle cannot be above the wrist - but it can be in line with the wrist. And as for wrinkles in the wrist. There is no rule against forming them. It is that crease that is used to demarcate the wrist. If you think you have an example of a serve in this vid that is not ok, please send us an email to info@thirdshotsports.com with the time of the perceive infraction.
Nope. The Eastern forehand is most common but some players even use a semi-western. This is definitely a challenge for most tennis players -- even high level ones -- who are used to producing way more spin. Incidentally, it is one of the reasons that the top players are not only high-level tennis players, but tennis COACHES. As an instructor, you often have to hit balls to students that can't handle a lot of topspin. So when you are a decent tennis pro, you learn how to use an eastern grip pretty early on in your career. I highlighted some of my own conflicts in this video th-cam.com/video/QiRqHgzp3vs/w-d-xo.html Finally, you might like our newsletter. thirdshotsports.com/newsletter
Let me distract you for just a minute and take you to ping pong or table tennis (competitive). Nothing spins as intensely as a well hit t/t ball. With top spin it simply explodes after hitting the table. In Pickleball it's easier to see the blur on a spinning ball because it's perforated with many holes in it. Cheers, great vid!
Hi Mark, I don't agree how you are tossing the ball up about 6 inches and then letting drop about a foot before hitting the ball - I would like a toss with a less moving ball before contact so there will be a more of a consistent serve.
Default Name thanks for sharing your thoughts. The slight toss allows the body and paddle to move in preparation for contact. You won’t see many pros with less height in their toss.
Mark Banford, I'd have to disagree with Third Shot here. According to the IPF rules 4.B.: At the beginning of the serve, both feet must be behind the baseline. At the time the ball is struck, at least one foot must be on the playing surface or ground behind the baseline and the server's feet may not touch the playing surface in an area outside the confines of the serving area. The serving area is defined as the area behind the baseline and on or between the imaginary lines extended from the court centerline and each sideline. (revised April 1, 2011) If you can time your 'jump/leap' to come after the ball is struck you'll be good . . . but as the time the ball is struck (in contact with the paddle) is only a fraction of a second, one foot must be on the playing surface. In the 'spirit of a friendly game' I'd be hesitant to jump-serve. In a tournament as an official, while it may be hard to clearly determine when you're jumping & hitting, I'd tend to err on the side making sure that at the time the ball is struck you were in contact with the court . . . so jump AFTER, not AS.
All pickleball serves are topspin, I don't see the purpose of this video, some of the serves from Mark are illegal. A high level player as in tennis should be looking for a combo top ,side spin to achieve a hard to return serve. There are only a handful of players in the sport that actually have a hard serve, the game is not evolved enough to worry about serve, return of serve.
Thanks for watching the video but I am afraid we will have to disagree about a few things you said. Not all serves are topspin. Many are flat (no spin, or negligible spin), others have side spin. I am not sure which of the ten example serves you consider illegal and why. And as for the sport not having evolved to incorporate tough serves, well, that is not what I watched at nationals. Remember, the goal is not necessarily to have the serve not come back. Often the goal is to force the returner to play a weaker return that can then be capitalized on. Anyway. Thanks for watching.
+Third Shot Sports I have played against most of the top players and apart from maybe Blom and Kern, no one had a hard serve, the motion needed to serve a pickleball is inherently topspin. 95% of 5.0 players are not even concerned with an impressive serve, sad but true, they are not investing the amount of practice needed. If they do hit a deep serve it is usually random instead of planned. Trust me I know I have been a 5.0 player for a decade now, National Champ and 3 different state Championships.You will have a better understanding of the sport when you have played more years and have won more medals.
+oldpickles Again, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to see things differently. I'm glad to hear you've had some tournament success and I wish it to continue for you. It is perhaps worth remembering that our videos are intended for a wide audience who play pickleball at different levels. I suspect that novice and intermediate players who are mostly concerned with getting the serve in play will benefit from thinking about it as an opportunity to gain an advantage. This video shows one way to do that.
+Third Shot Sports afraid I am going to have to agree with oldpickles on this one. , he is right on about how to put the proper spin on a ball, and also the current scene when it comes to high level players serves. When can we see some oldpickles training videos.
The slow motion, showing how you put that spin in there is very helpful and appreciated.
Glad you liked it. We do lots of slo mo. You should check out our other videos too!
What I like about your youTube is most are short and to the point.. Thank you Jim
Great video, Mark! Ever since I heard you talk about people who knew how to "rip it, but keep it in," I've been experimenting on how to do the same. The technique you're demonstrating seems to be the key. Really appreciate the slo-mo, too!
I have just started incorporating this stroke into my game. It is wonderful. Drops and bounces right at my opponent! Thanks, Mark!!!!!
Nice! Yes, the topspin serve can be pretty effective. Do you get our newsletter? It's got tips, tricks, articles and more. You can find it at thirdshotsports.com/newsletter
I read the newsletter "top to bottom!" I wish you lived in San Antonio to coach me! Alas, I shall have to rely on your wonderful posts, newsletters, and TH-cam videos to continue the improvement you made to my game at the day clinic in San Antonio. It was awesome!
Teaching in the rain is a great way to ensure you’ll have an open court! 😜
Thanks, Mark, it's all been very helpful and I like the HD quality of your videos. Much obliged!
Thanks Mark for your informative videos on some of the spins----now I have to work on them !ray
Great video! Now I've just got to master it! thanks for sharing your expert advice!
You're welcome. I invite you to get more advice with our newsletter. Tips, tricks, videos and more! thirdshotsports.com/newsletter
Just been plsying for two months. Will practice this thanks
greg flakus great. And you’ll probably love our newsletter. thirdshotsports.com/newsletter
Excellent video Mark, as always.
Thanks Michael.
Great video as always. I love using topspin on my serve and return if possible because it allows me to hit so much harder and still stay in bounds. Correct me if I am wrong but it also seems to make wind conditions matter less.
+knifegunguy Wind still matters but topspin is a great way to deal with the wind blowing from behind since it makes the ball drop.
Thanks again, Mark, for sharing your techniques(especially the slo-mo) It seems that you're not hitting the ball in the center of paddle. Is this by design? If the handle is pointed down, your sweet spot seems to be at about 10 o'clock. Can you elaborate please?
+Larry See Hey Larry. Good eyes! I'm not entirely sure why I hit it their (probably a lack of skill!). The ball has to be struck below waist high. As you can see in the video, I'm pretty close to crossing that line and almost certainly would be if the ball hit directly in the centre when swinging up on the ball as much as I need to to get good topspin. I think this off-centre hit is done in order to make sure contact is legal. At least I think that is what is going on!
Thanks Mark, really enjoy your videos. Jim
+Jim Jr44 hi Jim. Thanks. I'm happy to hear that. I invite you to join our newsletter. We have vids, articles, contest and more. Just go to thirdshotsports.com/newsletter
You are describing the classic tennis topspin. You can create better topspin if you feel like you are brushing under the ball with an upward motion then finish over your shoulder rather than the backside tennis style, feeling like you are coming over the ball with the follow through driving out at your opponent. This also looks more legal since you are using an upward motion.
Interesting comment and thank you for watching. We would love to see a video of the technique you are describing since we are having trouble picturing "brushing under the ball with an upward motion".
Following through the way you describe is fine but because the ball has already left the paddle with whatever spin it has by the time the followthrough takes place, it doesn't actually impact the amount of spin imparted on the ball. That said, the steepness of the swing path along with the speed of the paddle at the moment of impact are what determine the amount of spin produced.
Finally, we would say that when it comes to serving legality, a serve either IS legal or ISN'T-- there isn't a spectrum. The serves in this video meet the criteria for a legal serve.
nice Mark...i've seen some topspin serves that really push the "proper" serve motion allowed by the rules...it's a great weapon, but needs to be done with the upwards motion....would love to hear your comments... :)
Hi Gene. It goes without saying that a serve should follow the rules. A topspin serve can ONLY be hit with an upward (low-to-high) path. The topspin comes only when an upward path is used (a level path and a downward path, apart from being illegal in PB, prohibit topspin). If there are any rules people need to watch out for on this serve it is the height of impact (must be below waist) and the top of the paddle not being above the wrist at impact. This last rule is the one most likely to be broken as players continue to push the limits. With careful attention to dropping the paddle head, a good (and legal) topspin serve can be developed.
+Third Shot Sports yes, i've seen a few where the paddle position in relation to the wrist is questionable....thanks for the response! :)
Like the Singleton BiG Boy paddle!
Mark: As a coach from another spinny racket sport you should mention where the contact point is for paddle on the ball to produce the spin. I like to call it above or below the equator.
I hit my serve's with a 6 to 12 top spin. Curious if you or others do?
Love the topspin.serve.
It takes.my serve.to a higher level.
Simply put, if the handle (grip ) is below the wrist and your paddle face is below the handle then it should follow that all of the paddle face will therefore be below the wrist at contact. Just make sure all of this allows the contact to be made below your navel or belly button.On another note I fool around w/sidespin a bit more than w/topspin, sometimes both concurrently. It seems more players find it harder to deal w/sidespin than topspin especially if it also has underspin in it. At the end of the day all of it is tons of fun if players stop contesting every little thing rather than be up to the simple challenge it presents.That's the approach I take even on the 'slingshot' (a virtual double hit in one smooth motion) serve or return. I've been on both sides of that shot and often it's hard to define, in order to call it. What do you say about it Mark? And Thanks!
Thanks for your comments. The 'slingshot' eh? I suppose that's as good a name as any. I rarely see it happen on the serve. Do you know anyone that can hit that way intentionally and consistently? If so, I'd love to see some video footage of it.
Thanks for the vid and your comments below. I’ve been working w a local pro Scott Tingley who maintains its best to play w one stroke - continental. That has worked fine for all strokes except forehand drives and forehand serves. As a former tennis player w a semi-western forehand, hitting forehands with a continental grip has been a mess. From the comments below, you state that closing the face a little to an Eastern grip is a good idea on the serve. How about on a forehand drive shot that I might use on a service return? Btw I don’t spend a lot of time in the back court at all, but there do seem to be times to use a strong forehand drive ground stroke, right?Also, just purchased your drills and games pdf for a practice buddy and I to use as we stealthily try to improve our games. Good stuff!! Thanks for putting it out there.
Scott is a strong player and we imagine a solid coach. It is our opinion that when playing powerful shots with the forehand (especially if disguising it isn't a key priority), then an eastern grip makes a lot of sense. As you explained, the slight turn allows the paddle face to close while allowing the impact point to be out front. Additionally, with the hand slightly behind the handle, this puts you in a stronger hitting position. In fact, some players even use the eastern grip on FH volleys for exactly this reason. We're not totally sold on the idea, however. You can see more about it here. th-cam.com/video/QiRqHgzp3vs/w-d-xo.html .
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Yes, Scott is an excellent coach. Everyone has their own abilities, gifts, styles, etc. I think I’ll use an Eastern on my forehand serves and drives. The hand there feels so much stronger. As for on a volley - no thank you! No time to make a grip change in that part of the court. Thanks again.
Hello again Mark, Thanks for your quick reply.
I got this from the International Federation of Pickleball rule book.
To me that means no part of paddle face can be above wrist.
I've even wondered if a Chinese Table Tennis grip could be legal? (sorry, off on tangent)
4.A.1. Underhand Defined. The arm must be moving
in an upward arc and the paddle head shall be
below the wrist when it strikes the ball (paddle
head is that part of the paddle excluding
handle. The highest point of the paddle head
cannot be above any part of line formed where
the wrist joint bends). (revised Feb. 1, 2013)
right. it's all about the face. so the handle location in relation to the wrist appears to be irrelevant to this rule. So go ahead and experiment with those grips!
Thanks for the videos, I know perfecting the correct motion will take some practice to avoid be called for an illegal serve. I'm still new the sport so I don't encounter a lot of topspin, however having played a lot of table tennis my way to play against a top spin serve was to counter with a top spin serve.....otherwise I would pop the ball up. Should I use the same approach in Pickleball for returning a topspin serve, because I know they generally come at a higher velocity than any other serve.
+ncoutlander what seems to work for me is to counter the topspin with a backspin to the kitchen. Here I'm adding more spin to the ball instead of reversing the spin.
Good stuff Mark. How about a serve that kicks left with some topspin ???
I just started the game. I've played ping pong & tennis my whole life. I hit aggressive topspin, and tonight was called on illegal serve. I don't want to be categorized as having a serve on the boarder of illegal. Many of the comments discussed here seem to focus on the upward action, but don't address the legality of the handle above the paddle. Technically, my handle is above the paddle, but probably not completely above the paddle. There seems to be a fine line for the handle paddle angle that seems open do debate. The rules on serving don't specify which part of the handle needs to be above the paddle. The entire handle? That would be an easier call to make. Even some of the slow motion serves in this vid seem to be borderline? I'd like to hear your input. Thanks Much. Joe
I'm not sure what you mean about the "handle above the paddle". The rule is that no part of the paddle be above the wrist at the moment of contact. Generally, it is the paddle face -- not handle -- that causes the infraction.
The handle is in your hand and since you usually hold at the end of the grip, if the face is below the wrist, the handle would be too. Perhaps I'm missing something. If you have a pic of what you're talking about feel free to email it to me at mark@thirdshotsports.com
It seems like a player that uses a continental grip for groundstrokes could use an eastern grip to hit a more effective topspin serve. Two reasons: first, hitting forehands with a continental grip is a “wristier”shot, therefore more likely to have technical problems. Second, following a serve is one of the few cases where you have enough time to change your grip after the shot.
yes. the eastern forehand is preferred both because it provides more stability and it is much easier to have a perpendicular paddle face with a forward impact point.
Great video! Thanks Mark. This explains topspin well! Do you have a video explaining underspin or bottomspin? I did a wee search but can't find anything. I'm guessing the opposite happens - the ball will go higher and further? So is there a time we would ever use it? Thanks in advance for any help.
OH and also how we create it????
Sidespin th-cam.com/video/30XlPB7BtNg/w-d-xo.html and backspin th-cam.com/video/teS4Y0QPPsM/w-d-xo.html
Are there only rules for where you stand when you serve and not where you make contact with the ball? So you can lean over the sidelines or centerline to increase your angle?
Mark, is it true that using top spin to a right handed opponent will be an advantage to that opponent because the ball will be guided to his/her forehand? Instead a "cut spin" will make the ball spin away from a right handed opponent. I usually will hit a top spin shot to left handed players and a "cut spin" to right handed players. Your thoughts please.
Good question. Controlling the direction of the serve is a great idea and sidespin makes the ball jump a little one way or another! You can, however, hit spinning shots (including serves) all sorts of directions with the same spin. Check out this video to see how direction is controlled by the paddle angle, not the spin.. th-cam.com/video/rItbVuaNej8/w-d-xo.html
Really like your topics, content and presentation on PB. As in tennis, another advantage of topspin is it helps control the ball on windy days by countering a lot of effect from the wind.
Also UNDER spin is good when you need time to get to the kitchen, by "floating the ball deep and the underspin tends to keep it aloft a bit longer (2-3 steps?).
Which grip are you using?
I have tried bending down, using a bowling ball approach low to the ground, putting a mild top spin on the ball as I toss it up, giving a very legal serve, having a hard effective deep top spin serve as a result.. This Tom the Mop, not Debbie giving a comment.
+Debbie Doty Hi Tom! I'm glad it is working for you. Most people have trouble getting topspin on a serve with the "bowling action" because it is difficult -- but not impossible -- to accelerate the paddle upwards from this position. You'll notice that virtually all of the top players use a more sideways approach. I'm glad you've found a way to make it work! I invite you to join our newsletter. It can be found at thirdshotsports.com/newsletter. Thanks for writing!
I have tried this with an eastern grip, but the continental works better. Pronating your wrist gives you that extra whip that accelerates the paddle head.
That's interesting and we're glad to hear you've found success. However, the continental grip is not used by top players when hitting topspin serves. It is not that it cannot be done, but the slight closed paddle face that an Eastern grip gives makes it easier to make contact in front -- which is a strong hitting position -- without the paddle face opening. It is the same reason why strong tennis players hitting topspin forehands (which is essentially what a PB serve is) haven't used eastern grips since the 1960s. Anyway, thank you for watching and good luck on the court!
DOPE!!!!! Dig It!! Thanks for the tip Bruh!
Glad you like it! Don't forget to check out our Drills Guide gum.co/RFofM and newsletter thirdshotsports.com/newsletter
After playing today, a player said my serve was illegal because I was putting spin on the serve. What? I've been playing 39 years and I always put spin on my serve! Top spin for a drive serve, underspin for a dink serve, side spin for a fade serve! I still haven't seen a rule that says the serve cannot have spin! What's your take? Thanks for your insight!
Ben Avalos There is no rule about serving that refers to spin. Ask them to explain what rule they are referring to.
No such rule !
Not a proper serv
Paddle head is above the wrist forming a v and wrinkles in the wrist
Please help me understand
Thank you Brooks
Lindy Brooks hi Brooks. Thanks for watching! As far as we could tell, these serves we’re all ok. Remember, the rule is that the highest part of the paddle cannot be above the wrist - but it can be in line with the wrist. And as for wrinkles in the wrist. There is no rule against forming them. It is that crease that is used to demarcate the wrist. If you think you have an example of a serve in this vid that is not ok, please send us an email to info@thirdshotsports.com with the time of the perceive infraction.
All of serves demonstrated were legal. The paddle remained below the wrist upon contact. @@ThirdShotSports
Watch it slowly, watch the racquet above the wrist at impact
Watch it over and over-yup
what grip are you using, continental? As a tennis player I'm having a hard time getting anything except flat or slice, thx
Nope. The Eastern forehand is most common but some players even use a semi-western. This is definitely a challenge for most tennis players -- even high level ones -- who are used to producing way more spin. Incidentally, it is one of the reasons that the top players are not only high-level tennis players, but tennis COACHES.
As an instructor, you often have to hit balls to students that can't handle a lot of topspin. So when you are a decent tennis pro, you learn how to use an eastern grip pretty early on in your career. I highlighted some of my own conflicts in this video th-cam.com/video/QiRqHgzp3vs/w-d-xo.html
Finally, you might like our newsletter. thirdshotsports.com/newsletter
Thx
Let me distract you for just a minute and take you to ping pong or table tennis (competitive). Nothing spins as intensely as a well hit t/t ball. With top spin it simply explodes after hitting the table. In Pickleball it's easier to see the blur on a spinning ball because it's perforated with many holes in it. Cheers, great vid!
I'm not table tennis expert but I'm sure you're right. Seeing the spin plays a huge part in being able to handle it. Thanks for watching!
Hi Mark, I don't agree how you are tossing the ball up about 6 inches and then letting drop about a foot before hitting the ball - I would like a toss with a less moving ball before contact so there will be a more of a consistent serve.
Default Name thanks for sharing your thoughts. The slight toss allows the body and paddle to move in preparation for contact. You won’t see many pros with less height in their toss.
Can I leave the ground after hitting the serve like tennis players do?
Sure! You can even leave the ground AS you're hitting the serve! Just make sure you take off from behind the baseline.
Mark Banford, I'd have to disagree with Third Shot here. According to the IPF rules 4.B.:
At the beginning of the serve, both feet must be behind the baseline. At the time the ball is struck, at least one foot must be on the playing surface or ground behind the baseline and the server's feet may not touch the playing surface in an area outside the confines of the serving area. The serving area is defined as the area behind the baseline and on or between the imaginary lines extended from the court centerline and each sideline. (revised April 1, 2011)
If you can time your 'jump/leap' to come after the ball is struck you'll be good . . . but as the time the ball is struck (in contact with the paddle) is only a fraction of a second, one foot must be on the playing surface. In the 'spirit of a friendly game' I'd be hesitant to jump-serve. In a tournament as an official, while it may be hard to clearly determine when you're jumping & hitting, I'd tend to err on the side making sure that at the time the ball is struck you were in contact with the court . . . so jump AFTER, not AS.
does it work better if you start the spin when you throw the ball in the air???
👍
Nah Mark, it's one of those things that just happens inadvertently. So hard to capture on videoIt's like it's flung rather than hit, lol!
my paddle faces straight down on my TS serve... just snap up on it... no need for that side angle.
Today's Hike hmm. We are having trouble visualizing what you mean. Would love to see a video of it. You can send it to hello@thirdshotsports.com
All pickleball serves are topspin, I don't see the purpose of this video, some of the serves from Mark are illegal. A high level player as in tennis should be looking for a combo top ,side spin to achieve a hard to return serve. There are only a handful of players in the sport that actually have a hard serve, the game is not evolved enough to worry about serve, return of serve.
Thanks for watching the video but I am afraid we will have to disagree about a few things you said. Not all serves are topspin. Many are flat (no spin, or negligible spin), others have side spin. I am not sure which of the ten example serves you consider illegal and why. And as for the sport not having evolved to incorporate tough serves, well, that is not what I watched at nationals. Remember, the goal is not necessarily to have the serve not come back. Often the goal is to force the returner to play a weaker return that can then be capitalized on. Anyway. Thanks for watching.
+Third Shot Sports I have played against most of the top players and apart from maybe Blom and Kern, no one had a hard serve, the motion needed to serve a pickleball is inherently topspin. 95% of 5.0 players are not even concerned with an impressive serve, sad but true, they are not investing the amount of practice needed. If they do hit a deep serve it is usually random instead of planned. Trust me I know I have been a 5.0 player for a decade now, National Champ and 3 different state Championships.You will have a better understanding of the sport when you have played more years and have won more medals.
+oldpickles Again, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to see things differently. I'm glad to hear you've had some tournament success and I wish it to continue for you. It is perhaps worth remembering that our videos are intended for a wide audience who play pickleball at different levels. I suspect that novice and intermediate players who are mostly concerned with getting the serve in play will benefit from thinking about it as an opportunity to gain an advantage. This video shows one way to do that.
+Third Shot Sports afraid I am going to have to agree with oldpickles on this one. , he is right on about how to put the proper spin on a ball, and also the current scene when it comes to high level players serves. When can we see some oldpickles training videos.
So… Videos should only be made for high level players?