On your video at 5:15 onwards, when you serve you toss the ball upwards. Is this toss upwards legal? Good video but just have question about this. Thank you!
I love how you take the skills of forensic accounting and apply it to pickleball looking for every advantage. I kind of knew this already, but you made it so clear for me that I need to mix up my serve more to keep my opponent off-balance.
Honestly I’d rather line drive and curve my shots bc I can hit the line drive faster and do a curve so they gotta prepare for both. This is the easiest thing to hit back bc you can’t smash it as fast on a higher hit
Zane saw your high serve video yesterday. Tried it this morning, son of a gun, got at least 5 points with it, missed a few long by an inch. Once my opponents missed that first serve I mixed it up with some spins and they were toast. One of the best & easiest tips to learn ever! With instant results and I watch a lot of these videos 😊
Great video. Thanks for sharing. I was using slow, high-arcing serves as a "change-up" to throw off my opponents, which worked by them slowing down their returns. The slower returns, which they then had to generate more power from, made 3rd shot drops easier. But I only used it as an occasional change-up. Now, I'll be trying to generate spin with the high arc serve and hopefully get a top spin kick at the end AND causing a dual plane hit by my opponent. Thanks!
... but you can't hit it at the top of your toss, like in tennis. Can only hit it below your navel with the paddle handle above the its face. ...or at least that's *my* interpretation of the no-drop serve. With a drop serve, you can't throw it down to make it bounce higher.
I drop my ball starting from the waist and will have to try dropping from mid chest to get this heavier kick. I tried to reduce unexpected wind issues with a longer drop like yours on the heavy arc, kick method. I’ll just have to practice it more. I like the idea though that making an opponent respect a few variations of my serve will lead to more unforced errors or poor returns that allow me to come in easier.
good one, love the dog, I, by accident have developed, what I call a hi kick serve. I have only bin playing since Feb of this year, so my serve is quite weak, this hi kick serve catches them out as it is quite slow, as the ball jumps up in front of them. Up and on we go.
TH-cam goat man. Excellent tips. Tilting back as you top spin certainly does the trick. And if the consistent hard drive goes a bit long, just take a few feet back from base line. Practice makes consistent spot on shots.
Zane, the x and y axis (can’t help on the plural sorry) are from baseline to net, and from sideline to sideline. Or forward and back and left to right. You are introducing the z axis which is the vertical one. Just in case no one has contributed that to you.
Yes, @ZaneNavratilPickleball , I think this might be better, introducing a third axis, since we live (and play!) in a 3D world. Going to to 3 axes (?!) might be better for a more general "Navratil's Theory of Pickleball" game theory. (After some more reflection...) Which you may you may already figured out, except your X-Y plane is grounded at the baseline and extending vertically, so your Z-axis is forward and back from the baseline?!? The OP was assuming an X-Y plane being the court and the Z-axis being up and down, which I kind of like better than what I think is your theoretical 3 axes. If you stick with yours, at least you don't have to reshoot/edit the video. 😏 Less immediate work. 😁 Something to think about as "Navratil's Theory of Pickleball" evolves... Good luck on your theoretical journey. 😁 --Retired mathematician
nice option. u didn't really explain the toss. at first it looked like a regular release from your left hand. but the end of the video, it looked like you tossed it up a little. I guess i will have to practice it myself to see. thanks.
This is also very effective in rec play because there is not a lot of space behind the baseline. Puts the returner in a bind to back up all the way into the fence with no backswing space or ttry to short hop the return.
Excellent point. Most of us play on courts where the fence or wall is closer and in play on these types of shots that are hit close to the base line. That does mess with the returner’s space, both actual and in their head.
These heavy serves are easy to slice/push back. Very easy to control the depth of the return. You can just float it back down the middle and get into the net in plenty of time...
When I taught people to hit topspin in tennis, and now it applies to pickleball, is to pretend the paddle is a knife and the ball is an orange. The motion is as if you were trying to slice the peel off the orange and make a flat spot on the orange. You do not want to run the knife around the orange, thus coming over the ball. This motion puts great spin on the ball while saving your elbow/arm.
The way to put a flat spot on an orange is to aim the the bottom cutting edge of the knife at the point on the cutting board which supports the orange (using an appropriate tilt), then drawing the knife handle toward your gut while allowing the weight of the knife to provide also a downward pressure. This also applies to onions. Slicing toward the point of support eliminates rotational torque on the spherical object being sliced, which is both safer and more efficient. I'll try this on the pickleball court, but I don't expect my ball to land in bounds.
Axis (short i sound) is singular, axes (long e sound) is plural, and no one else's frame of reference is any better than the one you want to define, meaning your x-, y- and z-axes can be in any direction you want as long as they are at right angles to each other.
I think you a make a good point that returning a serve at the same trajectory is the easiest option. If you serve it higher then they will need to change the trajectory more to drive it flat, increasing error rate. If I hit it flat and low, they can just strike it perpendicular and go forward, which is 1 axis.
Are you allowed to toss the ball up in the air like you’re doing on your serve? I have a slight toss on mine of maybe just a couple inches down at knee level and somebody called me out on it yesterday.
Zane always good content. I have a student who comes from Racquetball and his serves are often side struck. The control or consistency isn't there. I told him on the "clock" to come through and strike around 5 oclock and follow through over left shoulder. How do I get that whippy racquetball swing out and a pickleball stroke in ?
Good content, and I like the idea of making an opponent contend with two axes (plural of axis). The same idea is even more valuable in squash since the walls come into play. Lobs, drops, drives, in both pickleball and squash. High and low, as variations keep an opponent off balance. They might overlook one of the axes. 🤓
Now that they took away the cheat serves, people need to figure out a way to get the same movement on the serve. The target point is actually in a 3-dimensional trajectory of motion. X, Y and Z planes. It is not only moving up or down and left or right, the speed at which it arrives (it's coming right for you - thanks Uncle Jimbo) is also a factor. Call this the 'Z' plane if you will. One also has to gauge the speed of the ball, the spin of the ball, and whether or not that ball will speed up or slow down after the bounce (the Z 'plane'). The ball will be moving in three directions at once along the X, Y and Z axes. Being watchful of how your opponent serves (top spin, back spin or slice) clues you in to what to expect off the bounce. Over time it will become intuitive just by watching the server's actions.
@@StephenRahn wrong- one can no longer propel the ball during the serve as of 2023. Tossing the ball up is in effect, propelling the ball. Don't take my word for it - check the 2023 rule book.
Used the heavy top spin looper today and, as expected, lots of people had issues when getting the serve to the back foot of the baseline! Appreciate the tip!
You just explained to me why some of my lobs cause my opponents to miss or deflect them into the net or out of the court. What you say makes sense. AXES = [AKS] + [IZ] In graphs, axes play their role, With lines that guide and measure the whole. Axis, singular, stands tall and true, But when multiplied, we get axes anew. One axis, horizontal, the x we call, Stretching wide, marking points overall. Its partner, vertical, the y we see, Rising high, forming a perpendicular plea. Together they form a coordinate plane, Mapping points, where data does reign. Axes, the lines, grid's faithful guide, Helping us chart, with precision beside.
I notice Tyson’s serve has a lot of shape to it like in the video. He mentioned that a closed stance helps him get that, any thoughts on closed versus open stance serving?
@@ZS_7722 I say yes to that also. Tyson’s way more open than closed when you compare his serve versus Ben John’s who starts from a closed stance (Ben has a more traditional tennis look at the start of his serves - lead foot and waist are perpendicular with the net. Tyson starts with his waist much more parallel with the net).
Nice tip. I see you toss the ball up. Just today i was called for tossing the ball up. And I said I see pro's tossing the ball in tournament all the time so why can't I. my opponents said it illegal so i committed to the drop savre and they lost anyway.
After watching this, I tried to serve in the way taught in this video, but someone told me this serve is illegal and the rule book says one cannot toss the ball for the serve. I checked the rule book and only found this rule only applies for drop server, not volley serve. Could you please clarify if this serve taught in the video is legal or not. Very appreciate it.
They are 100% incorrect. I play in front of certified referees for every match and have had multiple rule changes made because of me. I study the rulebook and your friend is wrong. On a drop serve, however, you are not allowed to toss the ball. On a toss serve (demonstrated here) you can toss the ball as high as you want.
@@ZaneNavratilPickleball Thank you very much for the clarification. That is exactly what I understood from studying the rulebook about serve on Section 4. One cannot toss the ball for drop serve, but can toss the ball for volley serve as long as not manipulating the ball.
I learned this a few months ago and it’s great. I put some top spin on it and it looks like it’s going long, then drops down right on the line. Very hard to return it.
Oh, goody. Let's make Pickleball serves as effective as Tennis serves. Then next year, more serve rules. I play Pickleball a lot. Fairly successful. I honestly don't know what a legal serve is. Opponents usually call all balls close to the line, OUT. My take, whatever they call is correct. If they contest the calls on my side of the net, I give them the call. Pickleball, for me, is a social event. Meet new people, tell stories, have fun.
The rule is that you should be able to see the colour of the court surface between the ball and the white line when the ball first impacts the ground. This actually depends upon vantage point. The ball will appear to land in bounds more often when viewed from above than when viewed from other angles. If you don't use this rule, and you are over top of the ball, and the ball skids on impact, which is common, you're likely to judge the ball by the point of departure, which makes more balls appear out.
I’m getting dizzy with the camera moving back and forth for each serve. Can the camera person zoom out or stand back a few steps to take the whole court in one frame instead of moving it with the ball?
I love when they give me the high serve. I wait till it comes down and on the bounce not only can I hit it low to the net but I can’t also put my spin on it. After that I notice I don’t get the high serve anymore
While your drill partner made all the returns, regardless of how your served, the returns on the serves with height seemed slower, providing opportunity for third shot attack. No?
the serve with the dog walking in front of the camera definitely struck me as illegal at first veiw, but it is hard to see. good idea re this serving technique though. I am going to try it
Possibly. Referees never call serves illegal though. You may very well be correct. Illegal serves in pickleball are like travels in the NBA@@JohnKeeling
Sorry folks, not legal. You cannot toss the ball up in the air, you must drop it. Read the rules. To perform this serve hold the ball high in the air, then drop it.
@smokedoldfashion3199 maybe im misunderstanding your comment but as those above noted above imparting force on a drop serve is illegal. Tossing a ball/imparting force for a serve hit without bounce is fine as long as the serve out of the air(volley serve) follows the usual rules on swing path, sttiking zone below wrist/waist, etc. That said tossing a ball upp too much adds variability to the toss so not necessarily a good thing to do aside for timing purposes
Zane, I think you’re underestimating the utility and weaponize-ability of the drop serve. Since it completely frees the serving motion from any restraint, you can get crazy amounts of unexpected, hard to read, and easy to change at the last minute spin (especially backspin) and shape. Once you give up line-drive speed-as this video espouses-everything else is better with the drop serve over the volley serve.
Only thing not explained is that the windshield wiper follow-through is hit mostly from internal shoulder rotation which drives forearm pronation. The wipe does not originate fromt pronation and no wrist is involved. His over the shoulder finish is comparable to the typical forehand groundstroke used mostly in women's pro tennis.
i have found that mixing my serves from fast to slower, long and short makes for a nervous receiver.. Why give our opponent the same serve? Slowing down and adding left or right slice will often take the receiver out of his comfort zone, A short shot to the outside corner is another favorite shot. Keep 'em guessing is my attitude.
@@ZaneNavratilPickleball ideally, if you can be consistent, then the returner is even more flustered. No gimme from the server. So BJohns is a classic example of someone who does not junk it up at the pro level and is a go to reliable server for mid to 3/4 depth with a lot of pace. Going for corners or close to lines and having too many variations leads to unforced errors. I like just two variations, with pace change at times, and doing each very well within reason to maintain the no fault consistency.
At 5:24…is that a legal serve? Looks like the ball is tossed upward. I only ask, cause I got called out for tossing in a casual game and it was not even this pronounced.
@@PickleballWill thanks Will. So tossing upward is ok as long as swing is upward and hit below navel? I’m new at this but PB rules are as clear as milk sometimes. As I mentioned I got called out for “tossing my serve up” (not nearly this much). The player, in all serious was missing part of his no paddle arm, so he truly hit his serve from a drop. Maybe he was overly sensitive to me having any advantage (which I really didn’t).
You can throw the ball up on a volley serve. What you can't do is throw the ball up, let it bounce, then hit it. If you opt to do a drop serve (via a bounce) you have to drop it from your hand without applying any upward moment to the ball
Depth is far more important than angles. Putting the serve into the back 1/3 of the court will be a more consistent way of starting the point at an advantage@@michaelt2961
Zane, you asked us to share this video with our friends if we found it to be valuable. Well, many of my friends are also pickleball opponents so...I feel very conflicted about sharing this video with them b/c they will use it against me!!!
Seemed like your opponent had a really easy time consistently returning the ball deep when you did the loopy serve. Great to have as a change of pace, though. Make them judge all sorts of different looks.
But what he is looking for is a return that has loft and possibly short. I personally love when people serve with loft. I'm 6'6" tall so I get too backspin the crap out of the ball at a downward angle
@@mikb277 that's kinda the point. Higher level guys return the ball with pace and a lot of backspin. When you do a high serve, it eliminates them from doing that. Mind you, I'm 6'6" tall and I love when people do it to me. I get to hit down on the ball and backspin the crap out of it.
I like the serve but tossing the ball up up seems seem to violate rule 4.A.5. The ball shall be released but no manipulation or spin with any part of the body. You're manipulating the ball when you toss it up or how am I wrong? I've already been accused of an illegal serve as it is, and I only release the ball. I would really be raked over the coals if I tossed the ball up as I saw you in the video.
It looks like your point of contact is sometimes at your waistline. I am working on these serves and every centimeter of height on contact makes a huge difference. Is the rule technically that the ball has to be below your waistline? I guess it doesn’t get called much anyway.
I tried to freeze frame the exact moment of strike, but generally it looks like an illegal serve, potentially being hit above the navel, but I guess it's no more than Tyson does regularly, so it probably wouldn't get called. If it becomes a dominant serve leading to shorter rallies, then they probably would start calling it or just ban it. And I'm fine with that. I think the tricky serve mentality is not in the spirit of Pickleball. Just serve it deep to their weak side. That's enough of an advantage. Maybe I would think differently if I played for money. ;)
@@DTBB2021 Ben Johns' serve is textbook, as far as I can tell. I've heard Jay Devilliers and some of the commentators call out Tyson for his questionable serve, but I've never seen a ref call it.
Zane, try a very high and deep lob serve with a ton of slice and topspin if possible. Learn to do this both forehand and backhand. This is highly effective on courts with minimal space behind the baseline. People hate the lob serve regardless. This takes it to a whole new level.
Nice tutorial. I used to practice a ping pong style serve, with a sideways slice mixed with a continuous up and forward push. Gives good results, but when I want to give an extra bit of speed than usual, it goes uncontrollable. Any advise to improve myself, please? Btw, the correct usage shall be "axes" as in x, y, z axes @ZaneNavratilPickleball
like the idea of adding a different serve type to confuse opponent, should work for both singles and doubles, but from the dog level camera shots a couple of those serves were very close to contact above the waist, just sayin an average rec level player prob going to go hit that ball well above waist and get called if they enter tournaments.
The dog walking by looking at the camera was the best part of the video! LOL He didn’t want to be left out!😂
Love the Golden, they are golden!
On your video at 5:15 onwards, when you serve you toss the ball upwards. Is this toss upwards legal? Good video but just have question about this. Thank you!
Yes, tossing the ball up on a volley serve is legal. Just not on a drop serve.
I love how you take the skills of forensic accounting and apply it to pickleball looking for every advantage. I kind of knew this already, but you made it so clear for me that I need to mix up my serve more to keep my opponent off-balance.
Honestly I’d rather line drive and curve my shots bc I can hit the line drive faster and do a curve so they gotta prepare for both. This is the easiest thing to hit back bc you can’t smash it as fast on a higher hit
Zane saw your high serve video yesterday. Tried it this morning, son of a gun, got at least 5 points with it, missed a few long by an inch. Once my opponents missed that first serve I mixed it up with some spins and they were toast. One of the best & easiest tips to learn ever! With instant results and I watch a lot of these videos 😊
With the new arc serve, obviously, it is performed with topspin, correct?
@@karenk5472 yes
5:24 Beautiful 🐕
Great video. Thanks for sharing. I was using slow, high-arcing serves as a "change-up" to throw off my opponents, which worked by them slowing down their returns. The slower returns, which they then had to generate more power from, made 3rd shot drops easier. But I only used it as an occasional change-up. Now, I'll be trying to generate spin with the high arc serve and hopefully get a top spin kick at the end AND causing a dual plane hit by my opponent. Thanks!
Lob serves and drive serves can still be change ups. This should be the main pitch, however!
So it's legal to toss the ball so high like you're doing? I had no idea I could actually toss it like a tennis ball (albeit not as high of course).
I noticed that too. Thought the rule is you have to drop it, not toss it up.
... but you can't hit it at the top of your toss, like in tennis. Can only hit it below your navel with the paddle handle above the its face. ...or at least that's *my* interpretation of the no-drop serve.
With a drop serve, you can't throw it down to make it bounce higher.
On a volley serve it is legal to toss the ball up. Just not on a drop serve.
I drop my ball starting from the waist and will have to try dropping from mid chest to get this heavier kick. I tried to reduce unexpected wind issues with a longer drop like yours on the heavy arc, kick method. I’ll just have to practice it more. I like the idea though that making an opponent respect a few variations of my serve will lead to more unforced errors or poor returns that allow me to come in easier.
Loved the Toby photobomb!.. Gonna try this style. Thanks
good one, love the dog, I, by accident have developed, what I call a hi kick serve. I have only bin playing since Feb of this year, so my serve is quite weak, this hi kick serve catches them out as it is quite slow, as the ball jumps up in front of them. Up and on we go.
“Can you try to look stupid in some of these” 🤣
TH-cam goat man. Excellent tips. Tilting back as you top spin certainly does the trick. And if the consistent hard drive goes a bit long, just take a few feet back from base line. Practice makes consistent spot on shots.
Thanks bossman! I appreciate the comment!
Zane, the x and y axis (can’t help on the plural sorry) are from baseline to net, and from sideline to sideline. Or forward and back and left to right. You are introducing the z axis which is the vertical one. Just in case no one has contributed that to you.
Yes! From a computer science geek, I love that this relates to 3D printing concepts!
Axis singular, Axes plural
Yes, @ZaneNavratilPickleball , I think this might be better, introducing a third axis, since we live (and play!) in a 3D world. Going to to 3 axes (?!) might be better for a more general "Navratil's Theory of Pickleball" game theory.
(After some more reflection...)
Which you may you may already figured out, except your X-Y plane is grounded at the baseline and extending vertically, so your Z-axis is forward and back from the baseline?!?
The OP was assuming an X-Y plane being the court and the Z-axis being up and down, which I kind of like better than what I think is your theoretical 3 axes. If you stick with yours, at least you don't have to reshoot/edit the video. 😏 Less immediate work. 😁
Something to think about as "Navratil's Theory of Pickleball" evolves...
Good luck on your theoretical journey. 😁
--Retired mathematician
Which grip are you using?
nice option. u didn't really explain the toss. at first it looked like a regular release from your left hand. but the end of the video, it looked like you tossed it up a little. I guess i will have to practice it myself to see. thanks.
Good point. I find that tossing it up a little bit allows me to get underneath the ball a little bit more, thus creating the arc!
This is also very effective in rec play because there is not a lot of space behind the baseline. Puts the returner in a bind to back up all the way into the fence with no backswing space or ttry to short hop the return.
Excellent point. Most of us play on courts where the fence or wall is closer and in play on these types of shots that are hit close to the base line. That does mess with the returner’s space, both actual and in their head.
As a fellow CPA I can only say "great video!' I have been working on this. I am going to add the shoulder as you showed.
Good tip. Any advantage helps. Thx.
These heavy serves are easy to slice/push back. Very easy to control the depth of the return. You can just float it back down the middle and get into the net in plenty of time...
When I taught people to hit topspin in tennis, and now it applies to pickleball, is to pretend the paddle is a knife and the ball is an orange. The motion is as if you were trying to slice the peel off the orange and make a flat spot on the orange. You do not want to run the knife around the orange, thus coming over the ball. This motion puts great spin on the ball while saving your elbow/arm.
The way to put a flat spot on an orange is to aim the the bottom cutting edge of the knife at the point on the cutting board which supports the orange (using an appropriate tilt), then drawing the knife handle toward your gut while allowing the weight of the knife to provide also a downward pressure. This also applies to onions. Slicing toward the point of support eliminates rotational torque on the spherical object being sliced, which is both safer and more efficient.
I'll try this on the pickleball court, but I don't expect my ball to land in bounds.
Everything you said... AS you push the paddle forward, correct? I have a hard time with topspin
Axis (short i sound) is singular, axes (long e sound) is plural, and no one else's frame of reference is any better than the one you want to define, meaning your x-, y- and z-axes can be in any direction you want as long as they are at right angles to each other.
Can you throw the ball up in the air before contact?
Yes
No
@@josefbleaux6724 Wrong. You can toss the ball as high as you want on the volley serve. As long as you don’t make contact above the waist.
Answered about 100 x already.
I think you a make a good point that returning a serve at the same trajectory is the easiest option. If you serve it higher then they will need to change the trajectory more to drive it flat, increasing error rate. If I hit it flat and low, they can just strike it perpendicular and go forward, which is 1 axis.
Nadal’s about to enter the PPA, so get ready for insane lefty spin serves.
Are you allowed to toss the ball up in the air like you’re doing on your serve? I have a slight toss on mine of maybe just a couple inches down at knee level and somebody called me out on it yesterday.
Are you using a semi-western grip?
Can you legally toss the ball in the air before striking it?
Yes unless you’re using the drop serve. Read the rule book.
Link to free 2024 rule book: usapickleball.org/docs/USA-Pickleball-Official-Rulebook-2024-v1.pdf
I did read the rules. There's no reference to releasing the ball "upward". How are you arriving at the idea that tossing is legal?@@Liam_Maddog
LOVE the dog getting his 2 seconds of fame ❤❤😄
Hahaah he's the star of the show!
Zane always good content. I have a student who comes from Racquetball and his serves are often side struck. The control or consistency isn't there. I told him on the "clock" to come through and strike around 5 oclock and follow through over left shoulder. How do I get that whippy racquetball swing out and a pickleball stroke in ?
Great video & we even got a Hobi visit. (spelling?) He's my new favorite guest coach on the channel.
I notice how to lead with your elbow as it points up and around to get under the ball with topspin.
Good content, and I like the idea of making an opponent contend with two axes (plural of axis). The same idea is even more valuable in squash since the walls come into play. Lobs, drops, drives, in both pickleball and squash. High and low, as variations keep an opponent off balance. They might overlook one of the axes. 🤓
Now that they took away the cheat serves, people need to figure out a way to get the same movement on the serve. The target point is actually in a 3-dimensional trajectory of motion. X, Y and Z planes. It is not only moving up or down and left or right, the speed at which it arrives (it's coming right for you - thanks Uncle Jimbo) is also a factor. Call this the 'Z' plane if you will. One also has to gauge the speed of the ball, the spin of the ball, and whether or not that ball will speed up or slow down after the bounce (the Z 'plane'). The ball will be moving in three directions at once along the X, Y and Z axes. Being watchful of how your opponent serves (top spin, back spin or slice) clues you in to what to expect off the bounce. Over time it will become intuitive just by watching the server's actions.
Zane, is it legal to throw the ball up in the air like you were doing at the end of the video?
It is.
No
@@josefbleaux6724 Wrong. You can toss the ball as high as you want on the volley serve. As long as you don’t make contact above the waist.
@@StephenRahn -Thank you Stephen.
@@StephenRahn wrong- one can no longer propel the ball during the serve as of 2023. Tossing the ball up is in effect, propelling the ball. Don't take my word for it - check the 2023 rule book.
Do you change your grip - say from and Eastern forehand on the line drive serve vs say a semi-western on the looping heavy top spin serve?
I use semi western for both!
Used the heavy top spin looper today and, as expected, lots of people had issues when getting the serve to the back foot of the baseline! Appreciate the tip!
Let's gooooo! Happy it helped!@@tagman12
Thought you couldnt toss the ball in the air when you serve??
Also standing a few feet behind the service line helps this technique as well. Good video.
Yup take 2 steps back and you can create all different types of havoc
Great video. Are you allowed to toss the ball that high? I usually throw the ball up maybe a foot, then hit low to high.
You can toss the ball as high as you would like.
Is that high toss serve legal?
You just explained to me why some of my lobs cause my opponents to miss or deflect them into the net or out of the court. What you say makes sense.
AXES = [AKS] + [IZ]
In graphs, axes play their role,
With lines that guide and measure the whole.
Axis, singular, stands tall and true,
But when multiplied, we get axes anew.
One axis, horizontal, the x we call,
Stretching wide, marking points overall.
Its partner, vertical, the y we see,
Rising high, forming a perpendicular plea.
Together they form a coordinate plane,
Mapping points, where data does reign.
Axes, the lines, grid's faithful guide,
Helping us chart, with precision beside.
Gotta love AI poetry! 😁
Excellent comment at 3:19!
I notice Tyson’s serve has a lot of shape to it like in the video. He mentioned that a closed stance helps him get that, any thoughts on closed versus open stance serving?
Try both and see what u like
But doesn’t Tyson serve open stance?
@@ZS_7722 I say yes to that also. Tyson’s way more open than closed when you compare his serve versus Ben John’s who starts from a closed stance (Ben has a more traditional tennis look at the start of his serves - lead foot and waist are perpendicular with the net. Tyson starts with his waist much more parallel with the net).
Nice tip. I see you toss the ball up. Just today i was called for tossing the ball up. And I said I see pro's tossing the ball in tournament all the time so why can't I. my opponents said it illegal so i committed to the drop savre and they lost anyway.
Time for a new vid with updated serve. I am hoping to learn the hi arc topspin serve this year
It appears that you are tossing the ball upwards, ever so slightly before contact. I was told today that the service ball must drop, no toss allowed?
Top-tier shirt for sure. Wearing that to my 4.0 league tonight
5:22 is this the Ben John's house?
I love that your dog is cool!
After watching this, I tried to serve in the way taught in this video, but someone told me this serve is illegal and the rule book says one cannot toss the ball for the serve. I checked the rule book and only found this rule only applies for drop server, not volley serve. Could you please clarify if this serve taught in the video is legal or not. Very appreciate it.
They are 100% incorrect. I play in front of certified referees for every match and have had multiple rule changes made because of me. I study the rulebook and your friend is wrong. On a drop serve, however, you are not allowed to toss the ball. On a toss serve (demonstrated here) you can toss the ball as high as you want.
@@ZaneNavratilPickleball Thank you very much for the clarification. That is exactly what I understood from studying the rulebook about serve on Section 4. One cannot toss the ball for drop serve, but can toss the ball for volley serve as long as not manipulating the ball.
Correct!@@huiminsong8851
I thought you couldn't toss when served. Is that change?
I learned this a few months ago and it’s great. I put some top spin on it and it looks like it’s going long, then drops down right on the line. Very hard to return it.
Oh, goody. Let's make Pickleball serves as effective as Tennis serves. Then next year, more serve rules. I play Pickleball a lot. Fairly successful. I honestly don't know what a legal serve is. Opponents usually call all balls close to the line, OUT.
My take, whatever they call is correct. If they contest the calls on my side of the net, I give them the call.
Pickleball, for me, is a social event. Meet new people, tell stories, have fun.
The rule is that you should be able to see the colour of the court surface between the ball and the white line when the ball first impacts the ground. This actually depends upon vantage point. The ball will appear to land in bounds more often when viewed from above than when viewed from other angles. If you don't use this rule, and you are over top of the ball, and the ball skids on impact, which is common, you're likely to judge the ball by the point of departure, which makes more balls appear out.
Is it legal to throw the ball up in the air then hit it?
Looks like ball is being hit above waist line? If so, is that legal?😮
Waist is interpreted by referees as the belly button, so these serves would be legal.
I’m getting dizzy with the camera moving back and forth for each serve. Can the camera person zoom out or stand back a few steps to take the whole court in one frame instead of moving it with the ball?
I love when they give me the high serve. I wait till it comes down and on the bounce not only can I hit it low to the net but I can’t also put my spin on it. After that I notice I don’t get the high serve anymore
That's awesome, you're figuring out a great strategy!
@ Thanks, I just wish they would do it more often. Sometimes I do end up hitting the net but it’s always worth the try
OK, so it's legal on the serve to toss the ball into the air above your head?
Great content. Thanks, Tanner!
While your drill partner made all the returns, regardless of how your served, the returns on the serves with height seemed slower, providing opportunity for third shot attack. No?
the serve with the dog walking in front of the camera definitely struck me as illegal at first veiw, but it is hard to see. good idea re this serving technique though. I am going to try it
at 3:28 looks like you are right at the waist/navel
Possibly. Referees never call serves illegal though. You may very well be correct.
Illegal serves in pickleball are like travels in the NBA@@JohnKeeling
Thought we aren’t supposed be throwing ball up on a serve. Just asking….new to this
Only on drop serve. Legal for regular serving where the ball doesn’t bounce before you hit it.
Perfectly legal
I also thought that you are not allowed to throw the ball.
Sorry folks, not legal. You cannot toss the ball up in the air, you must drop it. Read the rules. To perform this serve hold the ball high in the air, then drop it.
@smokedoldfashion3199 maybe im misunderstanding your comment but as those above noted above imparting force on a drop serve is illegal. Tossing a ball/imparting force for a serve hit without bounce is fine as long as the serve out of the air(volley serve) follows the usual rules on swing path, sttiking zone below wrist/waist, etc. That said tossing a ball upp too much adds variability to the toss so not necessarily a good thing to do aside for timing purposes
This is pretty good.
Remember 80% of "in" is better than 40% of "fancy"...
Deep serves n Deep returns ALWAYS put you in better position..
100%, but the hard serves and angled serves are the flashy ones!
Zane, I think you’re underestimating the utility and weaponize-ability of the drop serve. Since it completely frees the serving motion from any restraint, you can get crazy amounts of unexpected, hard to read, and easy to change at the last minute spin (especially backspin) and shape.
Once you give up line-drive speed-as this video espouses-everything else is better with the drop serve over the volley serve.
Drop serve is not allowed for PPA events so its not even a part of the discussion for most pros
@@Metapusher1 Right. Amateurs in PPA can use it and both Pro and amateurs can use the drop serve in the APP.
P.S.- Pro’s in APP never use the drop serve because after much experimenting they don’t believe it gives any benefit.
@@Metapusher1next time I play PPA I'll remember that.
I am unsure about lifting the ball up on the serve since people that do good wrist lag returns would send a bullet my way!
Is tossing ball upward legal
Nope
Only thing not explained is that the windshield wiper follow-through is hit mostly from internal shoulder rotation which drives forearm pronation. The wipe does not originate fromt pronation and no wrist is involved. His over the shoulder finish is comparable to the typical forehand groundstroke used mostly in women's pro tennis.
Great video,love puppy too 😊
Zane, it's been so long. Hope you and all around you are doing well. See you in Mesa AZ some time.
Heavy topspin lob with pace....will try
I spit out my morning coffee when the pooch walked across the screen. 😂
Definitely the star of the show, Hobie!!!
Always!
Thanks Zane---started drilling it--makes good sense !
Glad it helped!
Zane is tossing the ball up toward chest when serving. Is that legal
Axes
i have found that mixing my serves from fast to slower, long and short makes for a nervous receiver.. Why give our opponent the same serve? Slowing down and adding left or right slice will often take the receiver out of his comfort zone, A short shot to the outside corner is another favorite shot. Keep 'em guessing is my attitude.
If you can execute a good, deep serve consistently, there's no need for deception.
@@ZaneNavratilPickleball ideally, if you can be consistent, then the returner is even more flustered. No gimme from the server. So BJohns is a classic example of someone who does not junk it up at the pro level and is a go to reliable server for mid to 3/4 depth with a lot of pace. Going for corners or close to lines and having too many variations leads to unforced errors. I like just two variations, with pace change at times, and doing each very well within reason to maintain the no fault consistency.
At 5:24…is that a legal serve? Looks like the ball is tossed upward.
I only ask, cause I got called out for tossing in a casual game and it was not even this pronounced.
very legal
It sure is
@@PickleballWill thanks Will. So tossing upward is ok as long as swing is upward and hit below navel? I’m new at this but PB rules are as clear as milk sometimes. As I mentioned I got called out for “tossing my serve up” (not nearly this much). The player, in all serious was missing part of his no paddle arm, so he truly hit his serve from a drop. Maybe he was overly sensitive to me having any advantage (which I really didn’t).
I a newbie so I may be wrong, but I thought you can't throw the ball... UP.... in the air when you serve? It can only be dropped down. I'm confused.
You can throw the ball up on a volley serve. What you can't do is throw the ball up, let it bounce, then hit it. If you opt to do a drop serve (via a bounce) you have to drop it from your hand without applying any upward moment to the ball
How about a video on serving cross court? Thanks
Hi. This is a video about serving cross court what do you mean brother?
I meant a short cross court. So the ball leaves the court at a sharp angle.
@@ZaneNavratilPickleball
Depth is far more important than angles. Putting the serve into the back 1/3 of the court will be a more consistent way of starting the point at an advantage@@michaelt2961
Isn't there some rule that limits the amount of rotation the paddle can have on a serve?
No
Zane, you asked us to share this video with our friends if we found it to be valuable. Well, many of my friends are also pickleball opponents so...I feel very conflicted about sharing this video with them b/c they will use it against me!!!
Hahaha yeah, you have to really like them!
Seemed like your opponent had a really easy time consistently returning the ball deep when you did the loopy serve. Great to have as a change of pace, though. Make them judge all sorts of different looks.
I agree with you.
But what he is looking for is a return that has loft and possibly short.
I personally love when people serve with loft. I'm 6'6" tall so I get too backspin the crap out of the ball at a downward angle
If the new serve rules get implemented, this will be a little tougher. In the video he is really throwing the ball up before hitting it.
But the point of contact of the paddle and the ball on yr serve is above yr waist line …Isn’t that an illegal serve?
You are correct that a serve above the waist would be illegal. However, none of these serves would be called illegal by a referee.
I think it’s axis if I’m not mistaken
Try a lob serve from time to time. I have gotten some cheap points by opponents trying to kill it. But it also get you some short returns as well.
Agree. And I play against 5.0's and club pros.
Long as its every once in a while. An over lobber is so annoying to play against.
@@mikb277 that's kinda the point. Higher level guys return the ball with pace and a lot of backspin. When you do a high serve, it eliminates them from doing that.
Mind you, I'm 6'6" tall and I love when people do it to me. I get to hit down on the ball and backspin the crap out of it.
Thank you Zane so helpful!!
Nice t-shirt Zane!
Thanks 😊
I like the serve but tossing the ball up up seems seem to violate rule 4.A.5. The ball shall be released but no manipulation or spin with any part of the body. You're manipulating the ball when you toss it up or how am I wrong? I've already been accused of an illegal serve as it is, and I only release the ball. I would really be raked over the coals if I tossed the ball up as I saw you in the video.
Tossing the ball upwards is not a violation of the rule. I’m not imparting spin on the toss
It looks like your point of contact is sometimes at your waistline. I am working on these serves and every centimeter of height on contact makes a huge difference. Is the rule technically that the ball has to be below your waistline? I guess it doesn’t get called much anyway.
I tried to freeze frame the exact moment of strike, but generally it looks like an illegal serve, potentially being hit above the navel, but I guess it's no more than Tyson does regularly, so it probably wouldn't get called. If it becomes a dominant serve leading to shorter rallies, then they probably would start calling it or just ban it. And I'm fine with that. I think the tricky serve mentality is not in the spirit of Pickleball. Just serve it deep to their weak side. That's enough of an advantage. Maybe I would think differently if I played for money. ;)
Please have a look at every serve by Ben J & Tyson too. I always feel a bit anxious about the height of those
It’s literally at his hip. Quit crying because you aren’t as good as other people.
@@DTBB2021 Ben Johns' serve is textbook, as far as I can tell. I've heard Jay Devilliers and some of the commentators call out Tyson for his questionable serve, but I've never seen a ref call it.
@@88joshuajohnathan you don't have to be a deek. But everyone can be the solid 2.5 that you are
Good video, Thank you !
THanks for watching! Please sub if you found this useful!!
we want to see where the serves land
Zane, try a very high and deep lob serve with a ton of slice and topspin if possible. Learn to do this both forehand and backhand. This is highly effective on courts with minimal space behind the baseline. People hate the lob serve regardless. This takes it to a whole new level.
Hey Zane Really loving your videos brother!!!!! Coach Russell-Suncoast Pickleball
This is solid advice.
Nice tutorial. I used to practice a ping pong style serve, with a sideways slice mixed with a continuous up and forward push. Gives good results, but when I want to give an extra bit of speed than usual, it goes uncontrollable. Any advise to improve myself, please? Btw, the correct usage shall be "axes" as in x, y, z axes @ZaneNavratilPickleball
3 things ... 1 love the dog, 2. plural of Axis is Axes, 3. I did not think you could toss the ball upward during the serve.
it would be nice to see how to return these serves lol
“Paddle contact with the ball must not be made above the waist level.”
Correct
like the idea of adding a different serve type to confuse opponent, should work for both singles and doubles, but from the dog level camera shots a couple of those serves were very close to contact above the waist, just sayin an average rec level player prob going to go hit that ball well above waist and get called if they enter tournaments.
Having played countless tournaments, no referee ever calls a serve illegal. Trust me, they're safe.
Pickleball is America's fastest-growing sport and we like it #Pickleball