Biggest Problem In Modern Movies: Woman
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The Drinker doesn't argue that women must be feminine. He says that "strong female characters" never are feminine because modern writers see femininity as weakness.
He is basicly bitching that strong female characters have traits promoted by toxic masculinity. The problem is with this guy is that he would not make the same critic about a male character.
@@argantosnl what Male characters act like that tho? And if they do, are they not the villain of the film?
@@argantosnl If you actually knew the guy, you would know that's not the case.
@@argantosnlhe absolutely has
Been watching some of his videos and I say he does complain about women not being feminine
He makes really good points but sometimes eh... he brings up stuff that shouldn't be a problem
The difference between a “strong female lead” and a “strong male lead” is that the males can be physically strong but still lose and be beaten down to get back up, the females can’t show weakness because they “were already seen as weak” so it can’t happen. They think being cold, unfeeling, power fantasies make them strong but it doesn’t it makes them lame. Even Arnold as the terminator in T2 had more emotion and depth than the agenda “strong female leads” and he was a robot with the least lines in the movie.
Exactly. The best strong male/female leads have flaws!
He even smiles lmfao
I am calling Bullshit. Yes there are exceptions but most strong male characters don't have any struggles. Just look at any vin diseal movie or 99% of action movies from the 80's or 90s or 3/4 of action movies from a decade ago.
Speaking of "least lines in the movie" (though I think that honor actually goes to the T1000 who I think only talked when imitating other people on the phone, which was like once or twice, one of which was talking to Arnold, so the lines were basically matched)
Fun fact: I think I heard that because of how much he was paid in T2, he was paid like the equivalent of 80k per word or some shit. And that was early 90's 80k lol. If that's true, Arnold was paid like 178k per word, adjusted for inflation.
@Alan Animus i mean lets be honest here the successful ones are the ones who had character growth had struggles or even had character growth, they have failures, the character writing is done better, action films arent the stuff we are talking about either, star wars, lord of the rings, star trek, doctor who, and other franchises like ghost busters, it was the characters that we cared about not the action, the action was just the cherry on top. When you dont have good writers the entire thing falls apart, you can have the worst characters in terms of story and call it an action movie that is just the standard back in the 80's and 90's.
I said this in the Drinker's video. I had people tell me I wouldn't hate all these traits if it were a man who has them. We already have those in the Anime/Manga community. They're called Isekai Protagonists. The majority of them are bland self-inserts with no personalities, have all the power in the world with little or no weaknesses, & we criticize the ever-living crap out of them.
Thus the term Trash Isekai. It is a real, often used term. And even most of those OP characters show more emotion than the strong female character, and we still call the OP trash.
Agreed. I love the genre for what it could be and many have interesting worlds or other strengths that keep me watching. I just wish they would write better characters.
So true
I think isekai protagonists are slightly better because you can make jokes about them without 20 feminists shouting at you saying your sexist etc.
That depends, because there was a manga that was going to piss take on the top 6 popular but boring isekai until people ranted and that manga got cancelled
There were a few moments when Toph did act more like a traditional girl. Her and Katara's day out in Ba Sing Se, as well as her crush on Sokka to name a couple of examples. They were definitely rare, but did happen. I do say she fits a traditional tomboy character.
Even with the day out toph was messing around through half the day. The mud mask specifically is burned in my mind lmao
@@zachrohler1047we also have to remember Toph is a 12 year old girl it should be expected she’d act silly
I feel like Toph is a good compliment to Katara because they are both good female characters but are good in very different ways. Toph doesn't want to be feminine because it is restrictive and forced on her to "baby" her. Katara is very feminine but still no nonsense, powerful and independent. So that scene felt a lot like Katara wanting to remind Toph that being feminine isn't weak. Which it does help Toph acknowledge it and is a lot more open to be "pretty" sometimes. But ultimately its still not for her, even though she had a lot more respect for it. I feel like that episode was great to show all of this about the both of them.
Right! There's a difference between writing a tomboy and a "strong female character" that amounts to woman embodying "toxic masculinity" that they justify acting like because #misogyny and are also just the strongest because no strong woman can ever lose a fist fight the bad guy didn't cheat to win. Plus, Toph's power literally comes from her being a more adept earth bender because of her blindness. Sure, she's kinda brutish as a tomboy, and she is basically the peak of female physical fitness as a tank since that's literally how earth benders are designed to train to be, but it's not like she's ever trading blows with massive guys and no bending involved. Not that I remember, at least.
The worst ones are when they villainize the men for being actually chivalrous and idolize the women for just being women. I played a game that, while having some insanely good gameplay, I will never fucking touch again because of this (not to mention the nonsensical levels of queerness forced into it because heteronormativity and a baby daddy wanting to marry his girl and be actively involved in his daughter's life is the literal villain of the story. Actually the literal villain, that's not hyperbole). The game is called Timespinners if anyone's curious and I can only recommend playing it, genuinely, if you're either super queer or can actually manage to ignore all of the writing and just play the game without reading any of the lore or dialogue. I was actually totally disgusted by the end and just let the final boss kill me over and over for a half hour cause of how much I hated the story and how dirty they did the "villain"
Tomboy Supremacy! >:D
I’m reminded of that tweet someone made around a year ago saying that Toph would be called a Mary Sue if released today. The problem with that though, is that Toph is actually a well written character with flaws she has to overcome, both physically and emotionally.
I'd say the closest "Mary Sue" in ATLA is Mai. She literally has no stakes or growth other than defending Ty Lee. Every other female character in the show has some development.
@@Dkgow i don't think she would count as a Mary Sue either because she isn't OP she's just good with knives and often gets got by the gang lol. But also she does have character development, its just not as much as other characters. Like her whole thing with betraying Azula is because she realized that caring about people (aka Zuko and Ty Lee) is more important than fearing someone (aka Azula). But that is her only growth, I gotta admit. It helps her be more of a caring person, but its definitely not as much development as the main characters.
@@GamerSistersa Mary Sue is someone for whom the logic of the world and narrative gets twisted with the sole/main purpose being to make them look good/appealing.
Mai never looks appealing as a character beyond what is needed for her to fit her role in the narrative.
People say “a character is too perfect or OP” to define Mary Sues but those things aren’t why MSs exist or what makes them so infuriating.
@@frankwest5388 i still don't agree she's a Mary Sue by that definition, but I understand why people don't like her as much.
@@frankwest5388 that's not the only sign of a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is also a character with no flaws, and Mei is shown to have them continuously. I'd say the firelord is more of a Mary Sue, since he's just automatically powerful, with a rather bland personality.
Imagine they did one punch man but instead of just telling people “yeah i wanted to be the strongest hero so i trained everyday and it hurt and broke my body but i kept doing it now i’m the strongest and i’m bored” he says “I’m a man and that’s why i am so strong and i have to deal with being a man everyday so i’m the strongest ever”
One Man-Man.
Have you been on the She-Hulk writing team?
lol that would be hilarious as a satire
@@NikkiTheViolist well yeah as a satire
I mean both make no sense, but at least "100 push-ups, 100 situps, 100 squats, and a 10 km run every single day" is funny.
🎵🎶Men ! We dont know what we did ! 🎶🎵
Nice Family Guy reference!
Instantly sang it, not even read 😂
“Men vaguely existing and doing our own thing”. modern militant feminist- reeee men must die
@@zvn_viaMe too.
Heres two good examples of a good female character, and a bad one.
Good: Ashoka. She's a good character, because her being a female is not once brought up, not once does she put the male characters down unless they are obviously being stupid (like her crush sometimes in the CW) she goes through character development, knows discipline, until eventually when she becomes strong it's earned.
Bad: Rey. She is basically what every modern strong female character is. Her entire character quite literally is being a strong female character, rather than just being a well developed female character. She is awesome at everything, undisciplined, and puts male characters down at every chance she has.
What makes Rey even worse is that she's supposed to be the Luke Skywalker insert, but Luke didn't start out a genius with plot armor. Luke started as a weak teenager thrust into a war. We got to see him grow by watching him overcome failure, defeat, and his own inner demons. Rey just picked up a lightsaber, and the movie was like, "Okay, you're the chosen one." It's the same problem with the live action, Mulan. Her enemy was not physical it was going against expectations and the limitations society put on her with her own strengths. She wasn't the strongest or the fastest because magic. She trained and used her head to overcome both physical obstacles and the stigmas of society. Idk how the kids' animated movie did it better than the one made for adults.
I feel like they made Ahsoka unlikable in the first season so they had so much room for character growth in later seasons like that turtle jedi episode that taught her patience and her lessons were never thrown away she makes better decisions each episode
Rmb how in the OG matrix you dont need to downplay the qualities of the characters around Trinity to make her a legit female badass? Neo is at his best when Trinity is supporting him be it emotionally or when they fight together. They could have easily made her become the heroine and pull some Deus ex machina but Trinity shines brightest when she knows her part and unequivocally helps Neo. To me that's more awesome than any strong female character.
So basically someone in Hollywood watched too much isekai anime and thought that would be the perfect way to show strong realistic female characters.
Which is funny because all the isekai I've seen that have female leads have all been pretty good.
Yes
The bar for isekai is just so much lower though lol, meanwhile holywood production are hundreds of times mores experience. Also no one thinks isekai is the best stuff out there, most people who criticality understand anime at all know they’re pretty mid with only very few actual Isekai being worthy of standing alongside traditionally good anime. People do shit on the OP protag trope a lot, and the strong female character is very similar to that in terms of issues. But anime rarely takes itself as seriously and thus it’s not as bad, but still bad, and most people agree on that, nowadays mid is bad honestly, too much gets made, mid just isn’t enough anymore.
Some are power fantasies. I find that genre of iseki irritating.
Nux, i have trained male and female martial artists for 15 years. dexterity does nothing for a woman in a real fight especially against larger men. yhe fight will require you to seriously suspend your belief.Brianne in gane of thrones is the size of larger men so she is an outlier and thats what make her special
Yeah, it's just a modern cope when people think women could actually be as effective fighters as guys.
I'm pretty sure he was talking about star wars, where its less about size, and more about the fact that you're holding a beam of light that can effortlessly cut your opponent in half. In a real life combat situation you're absolutely right that physical size is a major factor even when talking about men vs other men, but with fictional laser swords technique does probably play a much larger factor, especially when the force can sort of make up for physical differences
@@silveryninja7027 to be fair here when it comes to swordmanship maybe show it like showcase a style that help overcome her disvantages then again i dont honestly care just giving a idea i feel star wars lack a realistic sword play
@@painvillegaming4119 they are also space wizards using enhancement magic to keep up
@@silveryninja7027 he makes plenty of references. women in starwars can augment themselves with the force to bring them up beyond their normal limits. new star wars just is awful. gone are the days of the lieutenant Ripleys now we have Rey Palpaltine
People are completely fine with female leads. The annoying part are the writers who think that having one is somehow reinventing the wheel all the while, ironically , making said leads unlikeable and both look and act less like actual women and instead giving them the same stereotypical masculine traits that they're admonishing
I mean, compare Rey to Princess Leia or Black Widow to Captain Marvel.
The fan reception is night and day, because Leia and Black Widow were good characters first and foremost.
Rita Vrataski from "Edge of Tomorrow" is actually a pretty interesting bend on the "stong female character": in the film's lore, the media sells her exactly like that, a "strong female soldier" who is ridiculously overpowered and always knows what to do, leading her army in a spectacular victory against the invading aliens. And at first, that's exactly how we see her. It's only as the story progresses that we find out she only gained her OPness by sheer luck and that by the time the movie starts she already lost it, which makes her truly terrified. Yet, she stills pretends to be strong and know what she's doing because it gives humanity some kind of hope
It’s actually even better than that, she used the time she had to develop permanent combat skills so she is still an absolutely force to be reckoned with, even after she loses her timerestart.
Pretty sure the lady from Game of Thrones is actually classically trained in swordsmanship beyond just acting though so probably why she's a lot more believable
i think that dexterity is what really matters - spoken like someone who has never been in a fight before
Right
As someone who has trained karate (yeah, cliche I know xD) I can say with confidence that while dexterity of course matters to some degree, strength and size are far more important. If you try to hit someone larger than you, they will usually be able to tank your hit, break your momentum and counter with a much harder punch than the one you threw. As for grapples and throws, these are still hard to do to a larger opponent unless you have practiced them for ages.
And while I'm at it, I have lost count of how many times someone in a movie have made a punch that would have absolutely shattered their bones. Unless you wear protection on your hands or have trained for several years, you will most likely break your wrist or hurt your knuckles if you punch someone on a bony bodypart (such as the face). The larger and heavier your opponent, the greater the chance of your getting a self-afflicted strike injury.
Dextery matters if you are ready to do strike weak points like knees and balls
@@Darteghoster Yes and no. Dexterity definitely matters when talking weak points because speed is key there. But say you go for a classic kick to the side of the knee, and your larger opponent with more muscles blocks with his shin against yours. Depending on the force of your kick and how tough your shin is, your leg will probably either break or be severely damaged. And in real life large fighters are typically not at all slower than smaller fighters. Their fighting style will be different, but they can still react and move incredibly fast.
This is of course assuming the fighters are at the same level of training and experience.
@@skullinthejar i usually do front kick with heel to the knee it working so far. You cant build muscules there. It always very painfull
Don't forget that it was also a death sentence for Mulan to be in the army but she gave more a darn about her fathers life than her own and that shows how much she loves him
I know in your Analogist of "Saying" of Toph bei-fong from Avatar (TLA) She was written to be Tough, but she had many things that made her scared too, an act like a girl some time. She Couldn't be messed with when it came down to "Earth/Metal/Minerals" of Solid structure but if it didn't come to those things instead of using Tough-ness she use her brain. (An Clever Quips!)
From what I remember her first time using metal bending came from a moment of vulnerability and helplessness and she overcame it by figuring out minerals in the earth can be used as a perspective to use the minerals in metal to then escape. It was a time of hopelessness she overcame by figuring out metal bending which is how a good story is written! Become better at what you do through hardship and overcoming said hardship! I feel the point of these characters don’t feel relatable because they don’t follow that general story arc of encounter conflict and overcoming it making them a better person and the lack of that in these characters that make them so terrible. That’s the main detail to focus on in these everything else is just side points to support that one overarching theme because at the end of this all those problems come back around to that one main problem they don’t encounter hardships which strips them of personality(at least relatable personality) and thus makes them unlikeable even by other women.
Normally, i would agree with nux on character development being more important than the fight. But when part of the point of that movie is a woman being underestimated because she's weaker than a man and then she just powers through him like the fucking juggernaut it loses a lot of impact and the character comes out lesser for it.
Yeah it ultimately boils down to did the character earn that power? Steve Rodgers didn't earn captain America because of the serum but because he jumped onto a grenade. In a world of OP force wielders, princess Leia leads the rebel alliance against said powerful characters with leadership and strategy because she knows this is the best way for her to contribute peace in the galaxy. Then you have she hulk who controls her emotions perfectly and instantly because even though the hulk is a reflection of Bruce banner's trauma from his abusive father, he don't know what it feels like to be catcalled everyday
The argument isn't that all women should be portrayed as more feminine, it's that women are almost NEVER portrayed as feminine in modern media. The "girl who can fight" trope is pretty much omnipresent but it never occurred to anyone that fighting in itself is the antithesis of femininity.
Strong Female characters are on the same level as OP wish fulfillment isekai characters. At least anime knows it is trash Isekai stories, yet the strong female characters are supposed to be serious. Need to write strong actual characters that are female instead.
Most isekai protagonists usually have a failure somewhere aswell, socially inept, a perv, kinda stupid. Like theres usually some drawback somewhere.
The fact Marvel can create an amazing character like Nebula while thinking Captain Marvel and She Hulk are their best written female characters is actually both hilarious and very very sad.
Nebula and Gamora are great examples of good female characters. Gamora for instance doesn't need to be deprived of any trace of her femininity to appear though. She sorta acts "motherly" towards the guardians, mainly in the second movie
But imo the guardian movies are on a whole other league compared to the rest of the mcu. Guardians 3 was the best movie we had in a while from Marvel imo (except Across the Spiderverse ofc, but I mean from the "main" mcu)
Yeah it ultimately boils down to did the character earn that power? And what kind of trials and tribulations they have to go through before they finish their hero's journey. Steve Rodgers didn't earn captain America because of the serum but because he jumped onto a grenade. And from then, he has to defend the modern world even though he's a relic of the past. In a world of OP force wielders, princess Leia leads the rebel alliance against said powerful characters with leadership and strategy because tbh the two goofballs Luke and Han solo won't have any direction without Leia.
Then you have she hulk who controls her emotions perfectly and instantly because even though the hulk is a reflection of Bruce banner's trauma from his abusive father, he don't know what it feels like to be catcalled everyday.
Basically he was asking to stop making carbon copy or copy paste “Mary Sue” characters that make no sense as actual people.
13:05 Yes and no at the same time
While Toph is tough, she also does potray some level of femininity, she also shown that her "masculine" traits are flaws, Pride, aggressiveness and ego, and while she is VERY capable, her pride in her abilities lead to some rough disagreements with the other characters...
Masculinity and femninity is not a bad thing - but it does comes with certain flaws or enhance other flaws
And Toph absolutely potrays it perfectly - in addition to the fact that there several scenes where she still potray some femninity
I think you and Critical Drinker agree a lot more than you make it sound. Your counter examples like Toph and your reasons behind those examples aren't things he would disagree with, and he even makes those same points elsewhere in the video.
I think the only thing you really want to disagree with is if their does exist a normal default of "feminine" and "masculine" traits that make the average character seem more realistic in the first place.
Yeah Toph is a great and real seeming masculine female character. But her masculinity is an exception in a full world filled with female characters who are all, even if they are warriors, relatively feminine. And she had such an interesting distinct origin that the reason shes a tomboy seems really natural. And Toph was only tough acting when she had her feet on the ground and could earth bend easily. When she was on a blimp in the air she became a vulnerable little girl.
Shes really not comparable to showing a slightly overweight elderly woman easily beat up a man half her age and twice her size.
God it's also extremely cringe that Woman King completely rewrites the history of that tribe as if they were noble warriors. They were literal slavers, conquering other tribes & selling them to white folk. Admittedly this was done by a lot of tribes during that time so they weren't unique but it's still royally screwed up.
They eventually caught the ire of French military & were absolutely massacred in matter of minutes cuz they brought spears, wooden shields & flintlocks to a gun fight with much larger force armed with large caliber bolt rifles & revolvers.
You know the irony about the "Moral Jesus" name? Jesus actually had to struggle, he had flaws, he had sometimes short temper. He had an entire society against him, and he even broke down before dying as he was terrified about that. But even then he had struggles to overcome.
Remember the fast he had to go through? He did that to prove to himself he was worthy of being the son of God. What I'm trying to say is, even Jesus had to go through struggles and had to earn his place, at least to himself.
One thing I have to point out is that while men are physically stronger then women, women have been shown to have a higher pain tolerance than men.
Yes, that was from Mulan. She was already Jackie Chan as a child, and that somehow was shameful because she was a girl. Her "journey" was literally to decide to stop not being awesome. Oh, and she also had a sister for some reason that did nothing... because.
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Strong Female Characters only work in the way Hollywood tries to push, if they're put in a Parody.
The example I'll use is of the Strong MALE Character.
Duke Nukem. He's for all intents and purposes a parody of the Strong American Action Hero character, and he worked for a while, because nobody took him seriously.
Duke Nukem Forever failed, mostly because it just wasn't a good game, but also because they took Duke seriously, he was no longer a parody.
These types of characters only work in scenarios where they are the outlier, and not the norm.
"Oh No! The President has been kidnapped by terrorists! What are we going to do?!"
SFC: "Let me handle this!"
"Who the hell are you?!"
SFC: "I'm just a regular office worker with no background in military,"
"...So how will you help us?"
SFC: "I'm also a woman, And I spent my life training to overcome the patriarchal society trying to push me down!"
"...The president has been kidnapped, I don't know how you'll help."
SFC: "I already saved him, he's over there."
The US President: "I have been saved! Thank you nameless lady! Now I will give you the medal of honor, and make you my new vice president!"
SFC: "Thank you mister President, I never would have been able to do this without a vagin*"
And then everyone clapped!
...
"How did she save the president tho?"
"Don't question it Jerry."
Like Dorothy from Wizard of Oz. She was the OG heroine. She stood up to the wizard and defeated the witch even though both times she was terrified. She also taught the lion that he had courage, the tin man that he had a heart, and the scarecrow that he had a brain. And she rescued her little dog too.
In sword fighting strength gives you a huge advantage. However in Star Wars they use the force to strengthen themselves and can jump like 100 feet in the air so it wouldn’t matter in light saber fights.
It also helps when you can have reality delete your opponent's second weapon when it could be used to kill you. :P
So here’s the thing. Dexterity will let you both kill each other, but it’s not removing the danger. If you are massively more agile, maybe you could do some kind of Yoda flip shenanigans. But if there’s a bar of super heated plasma hurtling at your face with the force and speed of a freight train, being able to actually block the thing is going to be of considerable help.
The hardest part about the whole strong, female character trope today is that we had such great examples of actually strong, independent interesting likable characters for the past 50 years.
What i really liked the the movie Prey was the fact that the girl was often taken down by other members of her tribe whenever she got into a fight with them. Because she is physically smaller. But when the Predator shows up she uses traps and makes new weapons to help her defeat it so she doesn’t have to fight it physically
Intelligence is one of the things lost and gained. She may not be physically superior by she puts her mind to work and overcomes her obstacle. It was essentially the same with Mulan.
I only disagree at @10:40. When something like an old woman taking punches from a brute like that is in the movie, it does take out a huge belief factor which isn’t supposed to be there you’d think. But to watch these kinds of movies the average person will be taken out of the movie by things that are completely ludicrous.
There are a lot of things in fiction that are completely unrealistic, yet people can easily still get sucked into. For example, Guardian of the Galaxy is extremely unrealistic, yet a bunch of people got sucked in and got emotional at scene in those movies. So I don't think that would throw someone out of a movie
The average person is not going to get pulled out of the movie by something like that. Unless you consider the people constantly talking about Mary Sues and women in media to be "the average person," which they aren't.
@@jmetivier9217 Okay but if you are watching a movie or series that is more grounded in reality than a super hero movie, where there are ACTUAL regular humans fighting, you would still doubt about a grandma taking hits from a WWE heavy weight champion like dude.
If I got punched once by that dude, I would instantly black out, it doesn't look realistic any way you look at it.
That is why this issue doesn't appear when talking about super humans, since it's an easy solution to deal with the different body proportions that would give an enormous advantage in the real world.
@@joaquincasascortes624 I agree and disagree with you. (I'm going to space it out to make it easier to read)
Yes, I do agree that very realistic stories shouldn't have a short, skinny, and unexperienced fighter male/female winning against a taller, stronger, and more experienced male character but this has a few issues.
1.A lot of very realistic movies have unrealistic things like one person beating a ton of other trained people, have something convenient happen to save them, people falling through glass and taking minor to no damage, have them never flinch and make the right decision most of the time, or have them have insane stamine.
2. Cynical Reviewer (If I got the channel name wrong, please correct me) is clearly talking about all female characters who beat male regardless of if it is fictional with mythical characters with others maki g the same argument.
3. How many super realistic movies have this issue of a woman beating man with no weapons. I can only think of the Woman King, but please tell me if there is more because I could be wrong.
Lastly, I want to make it clear that I do agree if you are making a super realistic movie, for example, boxing you shouldn't have that woman compete and beat other men especially if they are extremely tall, muscular, and more experienced.
With that said what I am saying is that I don't think this is as common of a thing in this type of genre, Cynical Reviewer and others are saying women beating up men shoudn't be in movies because its unrealistic even if it's fiction, and also even in those type of movies there are other unrealistic things that I don't hear other people complain about.
@@jmetivier9217 1. You just described what makes the difference between good vs bad writting in modern cinema. Not all good writting requires to avoid suspension of disbelief, but, usually, a well written story won't make you stop using your brain to try making sense of what happens. Even if it's the most wild fiction-based story you can imagine.
This is completely subjective, but most cases of bad writting in works of fiction usually happens when some aspect of the story told doesn't make sense, making the individual give up on trying to make sense out of it.
2. The channel is called Critical Drinker. He did not make the argument about "all female characters who beat males regardless of fictional mythical characters". If you watched his videos, you would know that, that is as much as I could say unless I wanted to write an entire essay about it, but It's far easier if you watch more of his material, specially his complete series about "Why Modern Cinema Sucks".
3. A lot of them. Just because You don't realize it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, SPECIALLY when talking about modern cinema.
If you have ever been directly punched in the face by a 200-300 pounds guy, you would KNOW the serious repercutions one can get from this dangerous injury. Experienced boxers have to train a huge chunk of their lives JUST to be capable of taking punches to the face and keep fighting. The average person isn't capable of doing this, much less a skinny old female. Not even close.
4. The critical drinker never said the entire issue around a "Strong Female Protagonist" is JUST movies not knowing about male and female biology. It's all of these issues grouped up and mixed together in modern cinema and makes you realize the "strong female protagonist" isn't written to act like a human, because even a robot fron the Terminator shows more humanity than many modern cinema female characters.
The argument isn't that every female character needs to be super feminine. Even examples like Toph with the way she presents herself has feminine traits to her. Its that the modern filmwriter is allergic to giving women any traits resembling a woman and you would be forgiven for thinking that these characters are female Terminators. He isn't necessarily arguing that we need to go back to the damsel trope for every woman, but instead accept that there is a spectrum of characters. If you look at anime, not every strong female character is the strongest person in the room or a lot of the other traits that make up the current "strong female character." They just are the characters that you can empathize with and believe the best.
For some, the arguments about female strength are relevant. If you know anything in the realm of sports, you would realize a serious series on boxing wouldn't really work if the female protag was beating up a bunch of men with brute strength alone. A series with magic, however, removes this weakness for the most part. However, this is based on preference really and people have higher suspensions of disbelief on different factors.
Ultimately, Hollywood needs to stop jumping from one extreme to another and just create some believable middle ground female characters and then some that lean a bit more one way or the other. Right now, the strong female character takes the idea of power fantasy to a whole other level.
Emotionless unstoppable killingmachines work great...as villains in like a horror movie or something, hence the T800 in Terminator. Then when he's the hero in Terminator 2: Judgement Day, he slowly learns to feel AND isn't unstoppable because the T1000 is a more powerful than he is and he can't actually win in a straight up fight, so even the once unstoppable killing machine has to basically fire and retreat.
When the limited acting range of Arnold + the fact that he's literally playing a robot and yet still has more character depth than basically every modern "strong female character" is hilarious.
I don't agree with everything this guy says, but he does have some solid points. I think Hollywood's main problem is that when they want to make a "strong female character," they become terrified of giving her any sort of flaw to overcome. They're too precious about their character, so they wind up a static, stoic, hyper competent, and ultimately unsatisfying piece of wish fulfillment. Not that wish fulfillment is inherently bad, mind you. It just tends not to be all that satisfying if the character is never challenged in a way that highlights a flaw and forces them to grow. If they would allow their bad ass heroines to just not be perfect all the time, I think people would be singing a different tune on the whole strong female character trope. People aren't perfect, so it is extremely difficult for anyone to identify with someone who is presented as perfect. Those flaws allow the audience to see themselves in larger than life heroes and connect on a personal level because those flaws make them human. They bring the super hero who can fly and take a shotgun blast to the face back down to a more grounded and relatable place. You need that if you don't want everyone to call her a Mary-Sue.
Bro the eyowen scene is even more powerful than you remember because you actually feel and visibly see the fear and confusion on the witch king as he dies his final death
The problem with the strong female characters today is that they are just fanfiction Mary Sues.
In my fantasy novel there are multiple female characters with their own struggles:
A Wind Adept that was raised in an Elf Village secluded in a monster-infested forest. The elves discriminate her VERY hard due to being a human (they see humans as short-living immature irrational animals) so she becomes a monster hunter to get rid of the monsters so she can escape from that awful village.
There's also a Fire Adept which was born with a huge latent elemental power and was sought by society where she was born. Due to the harassment she was so distressed one night that she had a nightmare and her elemental power let loose, burning her own house, her parents protected her from the flames with their own bodies, leaving her with her right half of the body covered in burn scars. Her trauma made her unable to use her own elemental power until the MC arrives to her city and trains her to take control over her power, since her struggle was psychological.
If even an unknown selfpublished Amazon author like myself can write characters like these, why are today's writers so lame to even design a relatable realistic character?
I’m genuinely curious how many of these Hollywood writers would actually pass a college writing assignment?
I know if I turned something like this into my professor they would fail me in a heartbeat maybe do well on grammar but I’d wager they would say something like “this has good potential but it’s missing some very important key points.” Be mindful every English writing teacher since I was a freshmen in Highschool was a female and what they actually mean when a phrase like that comes out really means “You have a lot of rewriting to do I actually loved a few things you wrote but it is just not that compelling.”
Every one of them, because college classes mean nothing now.
Well, they would fail a college writing assignment because it would be gimmicky, incomprehensible, vague, and nonsensical with grammar mistakes
Toph isn’t a “strong” female character. Toph is a strong female character. She struggles, has shortcomings and fails throughout the series and overcomes her physical disability and personality issues to become a better bender and a better friend. Captain Marvel is trash who acts in the most sexist ways that feminism can justify putting on the big screen.
Drinker's got a lot of great content. Knowledgeable criticism with wit and humor. And he's a published author, so he knows what he's talking about.
3:20 The difference between a "strong female character" and a "strong male character" is that the writing for the female character is so over the top to hammer home that they're a strong independent woman, they say and do things that no likeable male character would do. They apply the most extreme examples of "toxic masculinity" to the female character because that's apparently how real men act (and not just how the stereotypical villainized versions act).
Ok so size and weight can be the sole deciding factor in hand to hand combat. A fist fight between a male and female will generally be heavily in favor of the male, because males are generally larger and stronger.
But with weapons...even a sword, it doesn't take much pressure to slice through an opponent. Importance is on skill and dexterity at that point, though a larger and stronger opponent could try and find ways to pin down and overpower still, it's far more even.
The Character "strong woman" from southpark has more character development, Nux needs to see all of it
I think you are missing the drinker point 15:11 toth is all this things you say but she also acts like a little girl thats what make her character compelling, she yell and brags about her things and sometimes acts like a spoil kid, at one episode she kiss toki thinking she was soka and saying hes her hero
Wanna know something weird? Sally from Sonic SATAM cartoon had a pretty great moment near the end of the show where, for one of the first times I've seen in a cartoon, being a princess was what saved the day. It wasn't her saying "I'm the princess, do what I say" or people recognizing her as royalty and shutting up. The last big thing that happened in the show was Sally using her political prowess, leadership and negotiation skills to bring a powerful wolf tribe to their side and build up an army to face Robotnik. It was really badass and intense. They could have had her save the enemy leader from a robot and earn their help through action hero cliches, but they used her unique skillset. If she hadn't ben a princess and wasn't privy to the ins and outs of politics she wouldn't have been able to make peace with this way more powerful and out of the loop tribe and Robotnik would have overwhelmed them when they were unprepared, adding them to his army instead.
The "Strong Female Character" archetype is in desperate need of a name change. The strength of a character is in the strength of their writing. Do they have a well established personality, goals, development, strengths and weaknesses, do they have relationships within the world (romantic or otherwise. especially otherwise.), a distinct voice, and all the other considerations that go into what makes a character interesting, fun, and a useful tool for the author. It has nothing to do with how much they can bench or how impressed the dude characters are when she takes out a hallway of goons. Taking out a hallway of goons can be fun, but only if the character doing it is fun.
Long story short:
Good character + female = Good female character. Not female + character = good.
Stereotypically feminine traits are not inherently lesser or weaker than stereotypically male ones. They're just different shades of the same color.
We should replace "Strong Female Characters" with "Interesting Female Characters".
Weight & height do matter, but they're not the only ways to win a physical fight. Experience matters too, probably more than anything, and speed. If you can execute the finishing blow before your opponent, you win.
Okay but in his argument he showed a clip of Atomic Blonde, which is actually a great representation of a good female character and her fights against men, she was left very injured by her fights
The point was feminity isn't inherently weakness & masculinity isn't inherently strong or toxic. He wasn't arguing masculinity vs feminity he was saying that they are written without feminity cuz they view it as weakness which is pretty misogynistic when you think about it. Modern feminism is as misogynistic as it is misandrist. No one actually hates women more than feminists.
As for your example Nux Toph isn't feminine but isn't devoid of feminine traits either. She has compassion for others & loves her friends. She has strong sense of justice. These are arguably feminine traits.
We all ha masculine & feminine traits. Compassion, nurturing, loving, sweetness, etc are aspects of feminity just like decisiveness, pragmatism, emotional strength, etc are aspects of masculinity. Any man or woman can have any combination of these aspects & still be considered manly or womanly by their gender.
The funny thing is, I don't think this issue is exclusive to female characters either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember, there have been plenty of superhero films with male leads that have flopped hard because of this exact same thing. They removed any possibility of struggles, failures, shortcomings, etc. and left us with hollow shells of characters, thinking that the Hollywood spectacle would be enough to carry their respective movies.
thats true, but with male characters, nobody has a problem or calls you sexist if you point out that theyre shallow and poorly written.
I like this video. I feel like there are a lot of things that differentiate a string female lead to a fully complex character. It feels like movie makers are trying to over simplify the character and making it societies fault for not converting to them, insert popular movement here. Which leaves a divided audience.
15:14 And then you have Galadriel from the rings of power. Most writers make the lead females act like me and mary sues with no flaws. They write the woman as men like the fashion industry prefers more fefe like models then the clearly female form woman.
"i didnt watch bc i hear it was cringe" is way to relatable
“I feel like”
That’s the issue, most people now a days rely on what they “feel”.
The weight, strength, and height are even taken into account for professional fights. Even among men. Because it’s well known that a bigger and stronger guy, can easily beat down someone smaller and/or weaken then them
For the bigger guy to loose, the smaller guy has to be smarter
I think Nux might be missing the fact that since women are smaller they inherently do have to rely on strategy for the most part. Unless it's a character with some sort of supernatural strength or power they will have to have a plan and perform it flawlessly or maybe rely on stealth or other advantages.
A lot of people in the comments are comparing them to Isekais. But I think the main difference between them for me is that Isekai are trash but at least they don’t take an existing loved story and make it trash. Isekai also don’t pretend to be something they’re not, they know they’re trash and they fully embrace the OP character trope.
Thank you! The most obvious answer to the question of how a woman kicks a man's ass *would be* 'she's got a shotgun'. Which is why Ripley was so cool.
I'm so proud they included Éowyn and the scale of what she faced. A near immortal being that strikes fear into the hearts of all who behold him and she not only beheads his winged beast (it's not a dragon) but stands her ground and fights that very being who in reality needs to hit her only once to win. The fact that a woman in that time setting went to battle at all is proud of her strength of character. It's proof that strength is not the only way to win a battle. Teamwork and agility and various other traits are needed. Something modern-day media refuses to acknowledge
So Nux, when are you collabing with the Drinker? Because that would break the Internet. And I would be there for it with LOTS of popcorn! And booze. I mean, it's the Drinker. I need at least a tanker truck's worth.
10:36
Considering that in the actual events that took place all of the women were defeated, this was definitely a big stretch. 😅
Nux, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the critical drinker has a more nuanced and complex argument than you do. And the reason he does is because unlike you he recognizes that while people are individuals there is a reason that humans developed pattern recognition. A woman can be written as her own individual while still being written as feminine, just as masculine characters can have their own individual quirks but still be written to be thoroughly masculine.
Also the difference between the cringe strong female character and the cringe strong male character is that the second one is 95% more likely to have a reason or a handwave for why he has to be strong, while the first one is strong, simply because, which is another noted pattern difference between male and female humans.
I feel like Critical Drinker is not as nuanced as you think he is since this and some other videos that Nux watched boils down to “why I hate (insert movie/buzzword)” or “why modern writing suck” with no real solution to fix said problem. I don’t think he is trying to be “problematic” but sometime veer off course from his intended subject much like It’s A Gundam and often romanticize the “stoic” badass male tropic like is the gospel to live by. In a sense like many Right-wing channel only exploring a topic at a surface-level for shallow critique.
Most film critics have obvious political leniencies, and that shines through in their analysis, but that’s fine, it’s just a critic and their opinion, they’re people just like anyone else and can be wrong or biased, even if only in some areas. It’s okay that the people who’s content you watch aren’t perfect lol. The drinker makes decent content, he does shorter form analysis than a lot of other popular critics. It’s not that easy to critique anything and remain unbiased, so honestly I think they all do alright in their own ways. The right approach to this is to ise your brain and formulate your own opinions; watch different critiques and see different takes on the media in question, be yourself, scape the matrix so to say lol. This kinda content should be learned from not taken as fact or anything.
If they want to do a proper movie on a female hero why not do one on Milunka Savic, the most decorated female soldier in history. Her story is similar to Mulan, except it’s real and significantly better.
React to “Lady of the Dark” animated story video by Sabaton if ya want to learn about her
Also, Night Witches (a WW2 all female Russian bomber squadron) is another great story.
“Night Witches” animated story video, also by Sabaton, does a great job at detailing their story
Because 2024 would find a way to screw that up too. They can’t even do the Woman King story without fucking up history to promote bs.
5:48 even Saitama has flaws and things he has to overcome.
Philosophy of one punch man... I will never forget 😢 (i hope... brain damage is possible 😅)
Nux: “another character I hate, the moral Jesus character”
Me: good thing I got a character who’s the opposite. He starts out as a moral Jesus/Boy Scout character with omnikinesis (basically god-level) powers but over time, constantly being betrayed and people dying around him, he becomes borderline villain, actually exterminating the entire U.S. government at one point, which is probably a good act
I'm glad he reacted to this one and not the version where it got stuck on one image for the whole thing.
I think the best way to summarize this video would be that if you’re gonna write a strong female character, remember the “character” part of them instead of the “female” part of them. Good female characters can be strong brave and all that good stuff, but it’s only when they’re written as good characters first can they be truly appreciated.
Summary of why Kim Possible worked. She wasn’t a girl that was a hero, she was a hero that happened to be a girl.
Nux is so scared of getting canceled you can hear him verbally navigating a mine field when making points. lol
Reason why spiderman is successful, is not because he is a man, but because he is a broke student. Everyone can relate.
as far as physical strength goes, i think it really depends on the genre. if its supposed to be a movie or show where people have superhuman abilities or something like that, then its not such a big deal. but on the other hand, if its supposed to be a realistic setting, you cant have a 5'2" woman go around physically overpowering 6'4" men.
3:34 Nah, you spittin' facts. Rey from Star Wars or Carol Danvers from MCU are just as cringe as Drizz't do Urden from the Forgotten Realms books or Kirito from SAO, or any number of your usual Isekai protagonists.
I mean even Kirito, at least up to season 3, has moments of weakness.
@@Angrenost02 Most of which are because most everyone around him have IQs that are below room temperature in Alaska. His Side-bitch harem included.
10:54 it kinda feels similar to video games where you can win in the fight but lose in the cutscene
The physical strength argument depends on context of the situation like in Dragonball Goku gets shown being immune to bullets in the first scene he appears, but will still get visibly bruised by Bulma and Chi Chi in a gag situation, or environments with super powers or magic where strength isn’t determined by muscle mass
I watch a lot of critics like the drinker, Most film critics have obvious political leniencies, and that shines through in their analysis, but that’s fine, it’s just a critic and their opinion, they’re people just like anyone else and can be wrong or biased, even if only in some areas. It’s okay that the people who’s content you watch aren’t perfect lol. The drinker makes decent content, he does shorter form analysis than a lot of other popular critics. It’s not that easy to critique anything and remain unbiased, so honestly I think they all do alright in their own ways. The right approach to this is to ise your brain and formulate your own opinions; watch different critiques and see different takes on the media in question, be yourself, scape the matrix so to say lol. This kinda content should be learned from not taken as fact or anything.
That last part from Critical Drinker was priceless🤣🤣🤣
9:40 i believe its sortof implied that the lightsabers do hold weight through the fact that there is choreography in the lightsaber fights, as oppose to them just being weightless, where the fights are just waving flashlights around.
10:40 it's not that it has to be 100% lifelike, but it's so lacking in logic that it's immersion breaking in a lot of cases. I don't mind that black widow uses tonnes of training, acrobatics and joint manipulation shit to beat male 'goons' one and a half times her size, but woman king (and other situations) aren't that. This is supposed to be even more grounded in realism then bond movies. Despite that, we see iconic hero characters like james bond just get their ass handed to them by actors like jaws, because just fighting against size leaves you at a disadvantage. Characters like bond overcame these obstacles either by clever ploys or by avoiding them, not smashing straight through them like /strong female characters/.
Sorry Nux, but people DO care about the believability in fight scenes. The example the Drinker used, that fight in the Woman King completely shatters suspension of disbelief. Fights have to be realistic within their own universes and the rules of that universe or they take people out of the movie. But the Woman King is based on real life historical events. HEAVULY re-written mind you but the fact is it takes place on the real earth with all of its rules and laws of nature supposedly intact. And that is the issue.,
There is some room for suspension of disbelief and how much room varies depending on the movie in question. Star Wars for example, most people would be willing to forgive the difference in physicality cus of the Force. The difference in training and skill are another thing of course.
For a good example of having a women beat larger men in a more believable way look at Black Widow in the MCU. In most cases she tends to use her agility and acrobatic skills to outmaneuver and attack in unexpected ways. She also uses lots of hidden tools and weapons to catch people off guard. She fights dirty instead of head on in most cases. And it being a comic book universe there is some extra room for being a bit out of the ordinary when it comes to physicality as well.
Also the Drinker wasn't saying write the characters as purely feminine. He was calling out the fact that Hollywood goes out of its way to remove ALL femininity from there female characters and have them act as men, which is unrealistic and unattractive. These "women" in these shows and movies don't ring true as real people and thus it is impossible to sympathize, relate to, or understand them. And that is BEFORE the rest of the writing that makes them so unlikable, OP, and "perfect". His point is the same as yours. Write complex characters with interesting personalities, actual growth and challenges to overcome, and do it in a way that they seem like real people. The Drinker likely WOULD consider Toph as a good example of a female character. Yes she is a strong fighter. But she is also complex, has her own challenges to overcome, shows strength in facing those challenges and growth as she overcomes them. She has vulnerabilities and weaknesses and is willing to accept help, eventually, to do the things she can't do on her own. The Drinker wouldn't deny this. He is only saying removing ALL traits that are normally associated with femininity is an issue as it creates a one dimensional very false feeling character, especially as some of such traits are just a natural thing.
Sorry for the essay but I really hate it when people so completely miss the point.
10:38PEOPLE DO ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THAT
16:38 hey look it's issekai anime characters
And then completely flip that on it's head for other issekai anime characters.
😅 I'd bundle this all into 1 comment but I'm tired and I feel as if they don't all fit together well and some are somewhat long
Toph is an amazing character she isnt only stoic , she actually shows her femininity sometimes. Because she is a well rounded character.
With a power system like avatar it actually is believeable that toph is so strong. And proven time ajd time again that she is a master at was she does because of her training and never giving up.
6:44
I have not seen the last Star Wars movie why is Palpatine doing the exact same thing that got his face all jacked up in episode 3
There's a difference between the Zoey and Rochelle of L4D series... and a whole plethora of Female Characters in a lot Video Games.
There;s a difference between Ellen Ripley of Alien Series, Nancy Thompson of Nightmare on Elm Street to I dunno? She-Hulk, Capt. Marvel oh and ofcourse Wonderwoman of 64.
The difference? is Night and Day. The Days are the earlier mentioned and the Nights are the latter mentioned.
I think a good example of a strong female character is Elsa from the first Frozen. Yeah, she's overpowered as hell, but people actually like her, and she has some depth. Am I alone in this? The same goes for her sister. They are both well-made characters imo.
Hehe I don’t know if you are alone but I despised Elsa,
She’s overpowered, she is flawed and by the second movie she forgets all that she learned in the first one (though make sense that’s not a lead material in my eyes) I do agree on her sister and been trying for years to get my 6 y/o to appreciate Anna more as despite being weaker and “not special” she is going with what she believes in and run through fire and ice for those that matter to her
I think the main reason why people like her so much, is because unlike ana, she is relatable to little girls, unlike Ana, who obviously don't care about romance at that age. With frozen also being to that target audience it went high in popularity.
But for older fans, they like her because she's flawed and relatable, while having a cool (no pun intended lol) personality. Some parts mostly relatable to people with anxiety or social issues.
Her powers are explained so they don't give off Mary Sue vibes of automatically being powerful, and she takes time to learn with them first before using them.
I don't read comics but someone was talking about how captain marvel in the comics was trying to kill Spiderman because she had a dream that he killed people
but even Tough needed some help every now and then because her amazing strength can also be a weakness, and the people that actually help her didn't even have any powers
Saitama may have all the power but his mental game is where he can grow
I mean Leia does get kidnapped A LOT, and it was about saving the princess, romance blah blah blah kissing your sister etc... but she did have some bad ass moments. Mid is good description I suppose, a 5 or 6, still far above Captain Marvel and Rey, but... yeah she's no Ripley.
The thing about physical strength in fights with actually physically powerful women in shows is that they typically have some kind of advantage, like Toph's blindness making her a more attune bender. She's also written as a tomboy, not a man, which is a subtle but worthwhile difference to consider.
Also, the physical strength thing does matter with lightsabers when lightsaber clashes are a big part of Star Wars battles. If that didn't happen in the choreography, then physical strength wouldn't matter much, but they actually write more physicality into these fights than they really need to. I don't think I've ever seen one of these "strong female characters" ever fight in a way that took advantage of their lower center of gravity or other attributes of women that could give them an edge. Hell, imagine a fight scene where a woman was being overpowered by a man so she purposefully flashes him to make him drop his guard and then she strikes a fatal blow after being wrecked the whole fight. Then, after that, nobody would mess with her because they see she'll do whatever it takes to win and she did kill the strong guy, so who knows what she'd do to anyone else. Having a lower center of gravity typically doesn't lead to an advantage in most situations, but just writing around that too or finding a way to turn it into an advantage would be great to see.
I like the argument of "are people only equal if they are completely the same"
You can still be strong if you show some weakness. It’s the ability to overcome your weaknesses that makes you strong, just hiding those flaws doesn’t make you strong
Didn’t even watch the video and I can tell you’re about to spit facts my guy.
Writing good extremely powerful characters is possible; but it's hard because you can't fall back to the easy structure of physical challenges as the end result is essentially spoiled by the presence of the extreme power, and instead of you gotta make them interesting people going thru interesting situations where there's a chance they might not win even having all their power.
Emily Blunt’s character in Sicario was acted and written extremely well.
Even during the 90's when we had tons of male action hero's, there was ALWAYS that 1 7ft Russian that would easily tank our action hero's hits, and then proceed to wreck our guy who would need to trigger an environmental QTE to win, these days we've got ridiculous scenes like Galadriel locking 4 other guys swords with her one sword turning them around and pushing all 4 into a cell simultaneously.
Good on Nux for not blindly agreeing with everything. 1D characters (in a story that takes itself seriously, I'd like to add) is incredibly silly. And that is what a "strong female lead" often is.
Having said that, many of the people who complain about a woman beating a single big guy are often elated when an almost 60 year old skinny guy with a dozen bullet wounds takes out a 100 young well trained killers with guns (John Wick). Definitely a double standard.
"strong female characters are just as cringe as strong male characters." TRUUUUUUU
What they easily could have done with Captain Marvel is have her early on with her powers lose control which is why the chip was there and then have hard time fighting with the chip, but it allows her to learn to control her powers and by the end you could have the power trip of overwhelming the enemy cause throughout the movie she struggled with a handicap that without said handicap she would kill people she loved and grew to control her powers that she was always missing something crucial. She had learned a lot, but there was something just 1 thing she needed to learn throughout the movie and it could be confidence which would be empowering without the "I don't need help thing". Like an early One Piece arc that are most peoples favorite and hooks them shows that Luffy can't do everything despite how strong he is. In Arlong Park he literally points out he can't navigate, he can't use swords, he can't cook and can't lie (a joke, but he also can't aim ranged weapons). The same goes for future crewmembers. He can't heal people, he can't study history, he can't repair the ship, he can't play music (though that Skypiea song was fire) and he can't steer the ship. If Captain marvel was the Captain she would be able to do all and every crewmember are just below her level on them, but are there so she doesn't need to do it, but the show would constantly remind us that she can do it all.
Big thing I hate is the mcu, she hulk and captain marvel are a lot cooler and better characters in the comics but everyone hates them because of the god awful mcu adaptations, they ruin every character but these are the most agrigious
I think you can have “strong female leads” SALT was great and I’ve played games with the woman being a badass lead. But nowadays the film almost does everything they can to basically say “hey she is a strong female lead! She is good at everything and all the men around her are incompetent”
Feel like you missed the point where Drinker specified women physicaly overpowering men Nux. He and 99.9% who make the argument don't have a problem with a woman winning by weapons such as you joke, a shotgun.
I feel that some of these characters are written as power fantasies( which I feel isn’t a bad thing per say as their are plenty male characters designed to be power fantasies as well). It’s just the characters personality isn’t someone I can imagine a person fantasizing themselves as and that’s not just a female character problem that works with bad male fantasies to.
However if that’s not the goal of the character having them be undefeatable in all aspects of life is bad writing regardless if male or female. I can even say if they’re meant to be power fantasies having a decent struggle physically, mentally, or spiritually can make the fantasies more epic, or just give them a shit load of charisma idk, or just make the spectacle fun to watch for Example( the fast and furious movies). but this is just the thoughts of a guy barely watches movies to begin with