Interesting that they take a spoke and just roll it, which increases the major dia when material is displaced, compared to the bolt you first pictured which is also rolled as indicative of the step down where the shank meets the thread. This is to get the crest of the thread to be in tolerance with the shank, and in that process they actually turn the bolt "undersized", so that the roll formers displace it back to the correct major. I'm not sure why the minor Dia matters though, the thread rollers are industry standard, and the minor is a product of the forming process. Putting calipers on the major will give you the nominal diameter, and measuring the TPI will give you all the info you need. Probably all class 2 threads at that. I've thread formed bolts up to 5/8", and cut bolts up to 4-4UNC3A. Forming is cool, but you gotta really know your materials as you only get one chance to get it right.
Thank you. Great for folks who have no idea how spokes are fixed to a wheel and how to true a wheel. In fact this should be shown before true a wheel to avoid some over tighten spoke.
Yea, some truing wheel video gave simple instruction, righty tighty to tighten everything till the wheel is straight. With this video, now I know there is 19 threads in each spoke.
Treasure! Very useful! And I wonder, why spoke manufactures don't make the spoke thread length 10mm instead of typical 9mm? That would allow having full engagement without worrying about bottoming out the thread. I've only seen 10mm thread on DT Swiss factory wheels with non-series spokes. Two issues I see with 9mm thread. 1) It somewhat limits reusing the spoke on a rim with up to -2 mm shorter ERD, 2) When you plan to use aluminum nipples, and the calculated spoke length is an odd number, then you have to go one size up or down if you want to buy factory spokes, which in most cases come in even numbers. So, if you step up, you risk bottoming out the thread after final tension, and if you step down, you risk not having optimal engagement for alu nipples. And here are simple calculations: the standard nipple thread length is 8.3mm, so, with full engagement of 9mm spoke thread we're only left with 0.7 mm thread left before bottoming out. But in case of 10mm, we would be left with 1.7mm, which is more than enough.
Spokes and nipples do not "bottom out". The spoke is of a much harder metal than either alloy or brass nipples, so the spoke will keep going and flatten sone of the threads in the softer nipple,
@@BillMouldWheels well, I don't think it is intended to be always damaged like that. Not sure whether it will work with alu nipples as well. Some comments show they had issues with alu nipples when trying to overturn the bottomed out thread. With all this, I still think we would all benefit from the 10mm length spoke threads. DT Swiss actually makes such ones on their factory wheel, like Tricon R1700.
Fantastic Bill! This pretty much solved both my questions and also the issues i was encountering, right away. I`ll Subscribe as a thank you! Thanks! :)
Hi Bill, thanks for the informative video. I have a set of Colnago wheels with low mileage. Only a couple of years old. The nipple heads are popping randomly when bike is not in use, only 1 per wheel but I don't trust them anymore. No corrosion or anything. Aluminium nipples. While I can true a wheel with ease, I've never built one. My question is if it is a wise move for me to replace all the alu nipples for brass myself one spoke at a time? Confident that I can do this but not quite sure which nipples to get. Current length is 14mm. I guess 2mm is standard now? The wheel is a colnago Artemis CW32 CL.what would you recommend? I'll have to take a closer look at the top of the nipples to see that the spokes are long enough but they really should be on this standard colnago rim and hub set.
I understand the rolled thread on spokes but surely there is no way to thread a nipple ( that would be a cut thread ? So surely that would be a weak link ? )
Thanks Bill. I am a jeweler and need to make threading and a nipple for gold earrings. What small tools you know that make small threading on a wire and a nipple threading?
Noticing quite exotic materials becoming more common these days. I have had titanium nipples and spokes on a couple of racing wheels along with carbon and Kevlar spokes with what looked like all sorts of nipples,brass,aluminium and an Unidentified nickel plated steel type?
I recall from my 70s Electrical Engineering metallurgy course that some stainless steels will hold a magnet....either 316ss or 314ss......obviously one wants the better non-magnetic ss spokes....
Thank you for posting this. I'm building a wheel from used parts. It will be only my third wheel, but the first one from parts that were not originally together. I've run into a problem with spoke length already. I hope it is okay to post a link to your channel when I post my first video about it.
Hi i have 288mm pillar spokes on a 28 hole hub ( arc 009 ) and with a 12mm nipples the spoke goes all the way inside and left like 1mm out of the nipple. Its okay to have a large nipple? 18mm for example?
Still more gleaned from a seemingly mundane topic. I replaced all my aluminium nipples on a seldom used bike. I had found a few nipple fragments on the floor along with the wheel that wouldn't turn! All spokes were a little short so brass nipples solved that problem. Knowledge- pass it on!
Thank you very much Bill, I’m just an mtb rider and I bring my Cannondale F-Si to the Italian Service Center where the mechanic takes care of my Lefty and Recently I’ve got to change a few spokes because the used bicycle I’ve just bought had different type of spoke from the original and I don’t like it!...The Enve wheels use the DT Swiss Aerolite and DT Swiss 240 Hubs...what do you think about it?
Alessandro, it sounds like you have a really nice bicycle. If you have to change a few spokes, there is nothing better than what was in the wheel to begin with. Just replace the broken ones. If there are many broken ones, it makes sense to replace them all. Bill.
On DT spokes, the longer nipples also have longer thread length. This is discussed here: forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/nipple-length-affecting-spoke-length-716327.html
@@BillMouldWheels ah so, now I get it. I am just educating myself about it. I have few partially damaged nipples on my wheels, so I am trying to learn how to replace them one by one without dissasembling whole wheel
How, the name of Zeus, Mithra, Baal and the gods du jour, did you section a spoke nipple? Surely not via band saw. And how would one clamp a nipple for such a procedure? Excellent post! Many Thanks!!
Thanks Bill for the tutorial on nipple to spoke thread proper interface. Do you see any difference in nipples listed as 14ga vs 2.0 mm? I’m re-rimming a Roval SLX 24 which was apparently overtensioned from the factory and splitting the rim at several spoke holes. I’ll be using HED BELGIUM G with the same 24 depth and a 30-32c tire. I’ve never exceeded 80lbs psi, mostly 68-72psi, and run a 28c (which swelled to 30c at 2500miles/same miles as rim). At 165lbs and no torque monster I feel the build was defective. The Roval spokes are listed as DT and before ordering nipples, Other than DT, I would value your opinion. I’m re-using the original spokes due to low mileage. Re; After viewing your latest video, the Roval may have been undertensioned.
how do i get in touch with you for some special wheel build ? and thanks' for sharing your fantastic knowledge and experience with us , i now understand how & why i had some wheel failures + i know that the LBS i trusted and dealed with about them took me for a ride ,meh i "had to pay to learn" is that a saying i think ?
Good question! It has to do with the thickness of the "nipple bed", how thick the rim is where the nipples go. You need the nipples to be long enough that you can put a spoke wench on the flats that protrude inside. If the rim is thicker, which is common with carbon composite rims, a longer nipple is beneficial. I have lots of videos that explain this further.
What kind of stress did the nipple take if it cracks but doesn't snap of? The crack I noticed was parallel to the spoke/nipple axis and located at the bore and about 2/3 of the length of the thread. Can you help out with some advice? Thanks!
Among other things, aluminum nipples can become relatively brittle. It is not uncommon for twisting and cracking to occur where the wrench flats are, particularly if the nipple has largely become frozen to the spoke. Cracking of the nipple in the bore area usually occurs with simultaneous deformation of the wrench flats. A four-sided spoke wrench helps to lessen this possibility by grabbing the nipple securely. A drop of oil also helps, but if the nipple is truly frozen, the oil doesn't do much good. I know a few guys who use Coke, which contains a weak acid and might help dislodge the accumulated oxide.
Interesting outline-- I was looking at the NOX 29 TEO mountain wheels, with Industry 9 Torch hubs I have the option of getting brass, do you suggest brass over aluminum??
![[TH] VALORANT Champions Seoul - Semi-Final - SEN vs TH](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IewhVY9cAmQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Great. Pro expert advice, good diagrams, easy to follow, to the point, none of this blah blah blah filler of many other youtube vids. Thank you.
For a newbie to bike building (and obviously wheel building) this video was VERY helpful!! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Tim, I'm glad it was useful to you. Bill
Thank you for sharing your knowledge, Bill!
A master at his work, great video.
wise old man, thank you for your time and patience
I've never bought a built wheel since 1974 and I just learned something I didn't know. Thanks
Genuinely fascinating. Thanks Bill, great video.
Wonderful video. Thanks so much for sharing your passion.
Great Info! Several Nipples broke recently on the head of my elite carbon gravel wheels! Now I know the spokes were too short factory wise!
Interesting that they take a spoke and just roll it, which increases the major dia when material is displaced, compared to the bolt you first pictured which is also rolled as indicative of the step down where the shank meets the thread. This is to get the crest of the thread to be in tolerance with the shank, and in that process they actually turn the bolt "undersized", so that the roll formers displace it back to the correct major.
I'm not sure why the minor Dia matters though, the thread rollers are industry standard, and the minor is a product of the forming process. Putting calipers on the major will give you the nominal diameter, and measuring the TPI will give you all the info you need. Probably all class 2 threads at that.
I've thread formed bolts up to 5/8", and cut bolts up to 4-4UNC3A.
Forming is cool, but you gotta really know your materials as you only get one chance to get it right.
I didm't know about the extra bore....goddamn it! Thanks!! And bless spoke rollers!
One of the best videos so far about this subject! Thanks for sharing
Pablo,
Thanks for the kind words.
Bill
Seen before but came back for a reminder. Thank you so much!
Glad it was useful once again.
Thank you. Great for folks who have no idea how spokes are fixed to a wheel and how to true a wheel. In fact this should be shown before true a wheel to avoid some over tighten spoke.
Thank you very much for your comment. Bill
Yea, some truing wheel video gave simple instruction, righty tighty to tighten everything till the wheel is straight. With this video, now I know there is 19 threads in each spoke.
Awesome. Thank you for sharing.
Excellent video. Thank you so much!!🥰
Thank you for the encouragement!
Very interesting. Clear and concise.
This video explains why the head just broke off one of nipples thank you.
Great video
This was enlightning...thank you very much.Very good video !!!
Treasure! Very useful! And I wonder, why spoke manufactures don't make the spoke thread length 10mm instead of typical 9mm? That would allow having full engagement without worrying about bottoming out the thread. I've only seen 10mm thread on DT Swiss factory wheels with non-series spokes. Two issues I see with 9mm thread. 1) It somewhat limits reusing the spoke on a rim with up to -2 mm shorter ERD, 2) When you plan to use aluminum nipples, and the calculated spoke length is an odd number, then you have to go one size up or down if you want to buy factory spokes, which in most cases come in even numbers. So, if you step up, you risk bottoming out the thread after final tension, and if you step down, you risk not having optimal engagement for alu nipples.
And here are simple calculations: the standard nipple thread length is 8.3mm, so, with full engagement of 9mm spoke thread we're only left with 0.7 mm thread left before bottoming out. But in case of 10mm, we would be left with 1.7mm, which is more than enough.
Spokes and nipples do not "bottom out". The spoke is of a much harder metal than either alloy or brass nipples, so the spoke will keep going and flatten sone of the threads in the softer nipple,
@@BillMouldWheels well, I don't think it is intended to be always damaged like that. Not sure whether it will work with alu nipples as well. Some comments show they had issues with alu nipples when trying to overturn the bottomed out thread. With all this, I still think we would all benefit from the 10mm length spoke threads. DT Swiss actually makes such ones on their factory wheel, like Tricon R1700.
Good video, I learned something, thnx.
Great video. Learned something new here.
Great. That's what I would hope!
Awesome video. Thanks for sharing.
Fantastic Bill! This pretty much solved both my questions and also the issues i was encountering, right away. I`ll Subscribe as a thank you! Thanks! :)
Thomas, I'm glad it was helpful, and thanks for commenting. Bill
Hi Bill, thanks for the informative video. I have a set of Colnago wheels with low mileage. Only a couple of years old. The nipple heads are popping randomly when bike is not in use, only 1 per wheel but I don't trust them anymore. No corrosion or anything. Aluminium nipples. While I can true a wheel with ease, I've never built one. My question is if it is a wise move for me to replace all the alu nipples for brass myself one spoke at a time? Confident that I can do this but not quite sure which nipples to get. Current length is 14mm. I guess 2mm is standard now? The wheel is a colnago Artemis CW32 CL.what would you recommend? I'll have to take a closer look at the top of the nipples to see that the spokes are long enough but they really should be on this standard colnago rim and hub set.
Can the tips be ground down if too long? Your videos are great!!
I learned a couple of important things here....Thank you.....BTW adding nipple washers can help in one scenario...IMHO
We can all always learn more, Sometimes, washers can be an advantage and sometimes a disadvantage, I think.
Great video - thank you.
Thank you, David!
Nice baseball cap with logo "SAPIM", I want to have it.
I wear it every day. I only take it off at bedtime, and that's because my wife insists.
Great info Bill thanks you! But I chekced your website and it looks like it is down.
Clicked on this because I seen the word Nipple.. disappointed. .. lol jk great work man.
really you are bioinformatic person for spokes thanks Bill. you are great . where u from and kindly write your country code with cell number.
Great video once again
Thanks much!!
I understand the rolled thread on spokes but surely there is no way to thread a nipple ( that would be a cut thread ? So surely that would be a weak link ? )
Thanks Bill. I am a jeweler and need to make threading and a nipple for gold earrings. What small tools you know that make small threading on a wire and a nipple threading?
Noticing quite exotic materials becoming more common these days. I have had titanium nipples and spokes on a couple of racing wheels along with carbon and Kevlar spokes with what looked like all sorts of nipples,brass,aluminium and an Unidentified nickel plated steel type?
The actual formulation for the stainless steel used in bicycle spokes varies slightly from one shape and intended usage to another.
I recall from my 70s Electrical Engineering metallurgy course that some stainless steels will hold a magnet....either 316ss or 314ss......obviously one wants the better non-magnetic ss spokes....
@@gtranquilla Graydon, I'm not sure about that, but I can tell you that the SS spokes I use are only very weakly magnetic. The nipples not at all.
Great video, thank you! I came here trying to find the difference between 12mm and 14mm nipples.
Thank you sir!
Thank you for posting this. I'm building a wheel from used parts. It will be only my third wheel, but the first one from parts that were not originally together. I've run into a problem with spoke length already. I hope it is okay to post a link to your channel when I post my first video about it.
Absolutely!
Hi i have 288mm pillar spokes on a 28 hole hub ( arc 009 ) and with a 12mm nipples the spoke goes all the way inside and left like 1mm out of the nipple. Its okay to have a large nipple? 18mm for example?
Still more gleaned from a seemingly mundane topic. I replaced all my aluminium nipples on a seldom used bike. I had found a few nipple fragments on the floor along with the wheel that wouldn't turn! All spokes were a little short so brass nipples solved that problem. Knowledge- pass it on!
Great job!
Thanks, Pablo. I appreciate the encouragement. Bill
super informative
Thank you very much Bill, I’m just an mtb rider and I bring my Cannondale F-Si to the Italian Service Center where the mechanic takes care of my Lefty and Recently I’ve got to change a few spokes because the used bicycle I’ve just bought had different type of spoke from the original and I don’t like it!...The Enve wheels use the DT Swiss Aerolite and DT Swiss 240 Hubs...what do you think about it?
Alessandro, it sounds like you have a really nice bicycle. If you have to change a few spokes, there is nothing better than what was in the wheel to begin with. Just replace the broken ones. If there are many broken ones, it makes sense to replace them all. Bill.
On DT spokes, the longer nipples also have longer thread length. This is discussed here: forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/nipple-length-affecting-spoke-length-716327.html
Jan, you're correct. The DT Swiss 16 mm nipples are an exception to the rule.
What grade stainless steel is most commonly used for spokes and what are the values for yield and ultimate strength for those materials?
So what is the point of having 12 or 14mm nipple ir they have same thread length inside 🤔
Because the nipple beds in rims vary, so sometimes a longer nipple is needed so that enough nipple flats emerge to be able to tension the spokes.
@@BillMouldWheels ah so, now I get it.
I am just educating myself about it.
I have few partially damaged nipples on my wheels, so I am trying to learn how to replace them one by one without dissasembling whole wheel
How, the name of Zeus, Mithra, Baal and the gods du jour, did you section a spoke nipple? Surely not via band saw. And how would one clamp a nipple for such a procedure?
Excellent post! Many Thanks!!
Grinding wheel ;)
Thanks Bill for the tutorial on nipple to spoke thread proper interface. Do you see any difference in nipples listed as 14ga vs 2.0 mm?
I’m re-rimming a Roval SLX 24 which was apparently overtensioned from the factory and splitting the rim at several spoke holes. I’ll be using HED BELGIUM G with the same 24 depth and a 30-32c tire. I’ve never exceeded 80lbs psi, mostly 68-72psi, and run a 28c (which swelled to 30c at 2500miles/same miles as rim). At 165lbs and no torque monster I feel the build was defective. The Roval spokes are listed as DT and before ordering nipples, Other than DT, I would value your opinion. I’m re-using the original spokes due to low mileage.
Re; After viewing your latest video, the Roval may have been undertensioned.
Alan, this sounds like an answer over the phone instead of writing. How can we get together? Where do you live?
how do i get in touch with you for some special wheel build ? and thanks' for sharing your fantastic knowledge and experience with us , i now understand how & why i had some wheel failures + i know that the LBS i trusted and dealed with about them took me for a ride ,meh i "had to pay to learn" is that a saying i think ?
i am quite curious if you build bicycles for people? if so how much? (im a big person and want to get into riding bikes again...)
whats the application of longer nipples if they dont have threads?
Good question! It has to do with the thickness of the "nipple bed", how thick the rim is where the nipples go. You need the nipples to be long enough that you can put a spoke wench on the flats that protrude inside. If the rim is thicker, which is common with carbon composite rims, a longer nipple is beneficial. I have lots of videos that explain this further.
What kind of stress did the nipple take if it cracks but doesn't snap of? The crack I noticed was parallel to the spoke/nipple axis and located at the bore and about 2/3 of the length of the thread. Can you help out with some advice?
Thanks!
Among other things, aluminum nipples can become relatively brittle. It is not uncommon for twisting and cracking to occur where the wrench flats are, particularly if the nipple has largely become frozen to the spoke. Cracking of the nipple in the bore area usually occurs with simultaneous deformation of the wrench flats. A four-sided spoke wrench helps to lessen this possibility by grabbing the nipple securely. A drop of oil also helps, but if the nipple is truly frozen, the oil doesn't do much good. I know a few guys who use Coke, which contains a weak acid and might help dislodge the accumulated oxide.
Interesting outline-- I was looking at the NOX 29 TEO mountain wheels, with Industry 9 Torch hubs I have the option of getting brass, do you suggest brass over aluminum??
I usually recommend brass
Super, super, super.
ı wish there are subtitles.
thanks.