WHERE HAVE ALL THE CARPENTERS GONE?! (Why The Trade Labor Shortage Is Only Beginning...)
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The growing trade labor shortage is a crises that has not quite struck home yet...but it's about to. This short video from The Honest Carpenter discusses how the generational decrease in trade participation is hitting the entire construction industry. But it's affecting some trades more than others...
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WHERE HAVE ALL THE CARPENTERS GONE?! (Why The Trade Labor Shortage Is Only Beginning...)
For what it's worth, I think that the trade labor shortage is a reflection of a true paradigm shift. A hundred years ago, nearly every job in the world was primarily physical. For that reason, physical labor was considered cheap, because everyone engaged in it to some degree. You had your choice of workers to pick from.
Now, so many of our jobs are intellectual in nature. There are so many places to go and work that aren't really physical at all.
When these jobs were fewer, and fewer people were qualified to do them, they were considered high-value. But as they have multiplied, their relative value has decreased overall (except for certain positions).
But at the same time, people have maintained their view that trade labor is not very valuable. And yet, they completely neglect the fact that FAR FEWER people are doing it now, and it is in EXTREMELY high demand.
In a way, I think that blue collar jobs will slowly become sort of the next steady white collar jobs, as the general population is forced to adjust, slowly over decades, its understanding of the value of these jobs.
When you can't find a carpenter anywhere, a good, independent carpenter will suddenly seem very high value. And I believe that this should be reflected in their pay.
Thank you for watching!
Ethan
That is so true!
Okay, I just finished watching the entire video and I have to say that is sooooooooo so true! You hit the nail on the head, no pun intended. Been doing carpentry for over 35 years. There are no young people in any of the trades where I'm at. Just a bunch of middle-aged & old guys plugging along. No sure who going to take over in the future. And you right about the pay. Doesn't seem right.
Thank you, T.E! I’m doing a reprisal of this video soon, specifically about how youth interest in the trades has vanished. I have an idea for how I can maybe help with this in a small way, I’ll just need some support from folks. Keep an eye out for that one!
i used to do labor getting paid #13 an hour which was cool. there was this crazy carpenter dude on our crew who used to get paid #36 an hour... back then i thought he was getting paid well (we got paid weekly) but now i know why he was crazy.
So that guy that rewired my house and laid the wires for the tv points and then put the facia plates on without connecting the wires to the the plates? he was so sweet ... or was he so stupid?
@@TheHonestCarpenter this is planned, western governments & corpo-capitalists that own them & own the land want to drive up housing costs by about 4-6 times (See Toronto & GTA Golden horse shoe) with the excuse that there are no skilled tradesman, once the value is set so high, they’ll want to import cheap labourers from India Africa & latin America to do this work with excuse: 1) poor foreign people need some USD currency to survive in their own countries and so they’ll be seasonal workers. 2) so anti-immigration folks and pro-immigration folks are both happy, 3) so that the economy is transitioned into FinTech, Biotech, Quantum Tech, Materials chemistry & other innovations (which really means full blown automation) By then they can build houses really cheap & charge so much rent, cuz with their CBDCs digital currency, no one will own anything or be able to afford anything including health care (see MAID - medically assisted death aka state sponsored suicide TIKTOK VIDEO CANADA) The idea is either to shrink the western hemisphere population to have an ideal Type 1 civilization (for that they need total global control so bye to Russia/China and any sovereign nation) or they are just bored crazy maniacs who want to expedite the second coming (aka False Messiah) Democrat vs Republican reasoning i’m not sure.
Man, who woulda thought that abusing trade workers, underpaying, neglecting them, and removing those curriculums from schools would make a shortage.
How else could the top guys in the union make crazy bucks? Union work is the ultimate fuck you to meritocracy. The guy that lasts the longest without quitting or dying or being forced out due to politics is the guy that gets the biggest check. Everyone else is just waiting for him to die or retire.
When the industry is growing, that's great. The guys at the top roll in cash. When the industry is not growing, you have a bunch of old people at the top wanting their payday, but there's not enough new workers to exploit.
When I was at school (27 now, plumber) we were told that we had to decide on a career path, so as to know which university course to enter after school. This was important, because if we failed, we might be forced into trade work!
Anyway, I got into plumbing by chance, but it's treated me well. I know a lot of people who went to university, because that seemed the logical next step after school, only to end up in jobs they are over qualified for.
@@mildyproductive9726 how are you blaming unions for this?
@@amyglynn6827
In union work, the longer you are in the union, the more you get paid. When this trade has too many veterans at the top, and too few at the bottom, the new workers get overworked for shit pay, and no one wants to enter the field.
Then the old guard starts complaining that there's not enough workers. They really mean that their system has broken, because growth was unsustainable. And due to slow down of carpentry work, the system looks more like a ponzi scheme without enough suckers trying to buy in.
If new carpenters were paid by supply and demand, you'd have exactly enough carpenters. But then the older guys in the union wouldn't be able to make way more money vs. the new guys. It is nice to be able to rely on union membership to one day make near doctor-money for swinging a hammer... until there aren't enough new guys "paying their dues" to support your retirement.
@@amyglynn6827 really the union sounds great at first, but when you get into it you find out it’s bad. Entry level guys only get work last, no pay if you don’t work. The old guys stay in there until they die because they don’t have to do shit and get paid 10x the lower guys doing all the work. It’s exactly everything socialist tell you capitalism is. Oh and you have to pay every month just to be on a list hoping to get to work. Not to mention work is being outsourced to illegal immigrants so the demand for union guys is destroyed. Then you college educated people think that labor work should be ultra cheap because it don’t require an education, but it does and if gov would stop excessive immigration the market could balance out and rich would have to shell out money for the labor creating less of a pay gap allowing a middle class. But the elites lobby for immigration to keep labor cheap and profits high.
This is a great wood project book th-cam.com/users/postUgkxkPIWb22DigCqxmlXerCyUF4HCl6eSU2L . Most of the projects use the pallet simply as a source of reclaimed wood not as a recognizable pallet so even if you didn't have a pallet you could make these projects with any reclaimed (or even new) wood. The instructions are excellent. The style is charming and would work with lots of different decor. There are quite a number of projects that involve tiling of teh wood pieces which is a really cool idea and can produce beautiful pieces when working with aged wood.
I used to be a carpenter. I now make twice a much money doing something else. There is something wrong with building houses all day and not being able to afford one yourself.
You can afford a house but you gotta work 6-7 days a week no vacations and you must forget you exist
Exactly how I felt!!
I actually work mandatory up to 10hr 6 or 7 days per week now, but it's double time on Sunday and triple time on holidays. There's 10,000 different kinds of jobs and all of them can't find people who actually show up, just dumb enough to do the work without being a threat of taking the bosses job or becoming a competitor after learning how the business works.
@@minedustry Can confirm, I was fired once because a customer saw my work style and my hand skills, didn't like my bosses attitude and then in the middle of the job right in front of him asked me if I was interested in building them a custom built in media center with all media/data wires wired internally and plated to the wall since my boss has turned that job down. I was fired for not blatantly telling her that my skills and capabilities were owned by the boss.
I'm the 69th like of this comment. 😏
My dad is a carpenter and he recently had to switch to a desk job because he's getting older. I remember going to work with him when I was really little because my parents couldn't afford to pay for child care. He carved an incredible set of front doors with the aztec calendar in them. His clients were all wealthy, but sometimes they would try to not pay him. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with absolute nonsense like that.
This is why whenever I made something for someone, pay up 80% of the cost upfront. I can’t gift anything anymore. Things are just too tight.
Nice
25% up front plus half for materials. then at each stage youi ask for payment as per contract. No payment you walk away! Make sure to document your work as well as time and effort, vidoes of you doing the work and get signoff for bneing on site each and every day by the GC or homew owner! Documentation is everything in a lawsuit.
"His clients were all wealthy, but sometimes they would try to not pay him." If I had not had my own business with such people as clientele, I would not have believed this, but yeah, people can be amazingly ballsy.
wealthy people don't become wealthy by being generous or honest in their business dealings.
i tried for 2 years to get a carpentry apprenticeship. every one expected 1 year of experience... That year of experience is what that apprenticeship is meant to provide. Everyone wants hard workers but nobody wants to train someone.
Yeah seriously just lie they'll just assume you got shit training for that year
actually it's not so much no one wants to do it but no one wants to PAY for it. it always boils down to some way to get something for nothing.
Dude I just commented on this .. i tried so many times to get into the unions and trade companies but they either want an apprentice of at least one year or they want experience in whatever trade you are applying .. doesn’t make sense I hear there’s a shortage of young guys but when young guys apply with no experience they don’t want them .. 🤷♂️
as a roofer myself, the reason being for this is because once they get a bit learned up they feel like they earn a shit-load more or competition snicks them away.
I'm not saying i dont want to pay up for a good worker but dont expect a 10y salary once youve just learned the trade a bit
@@markhughes2611 unfortunately that is what has to be done to get that experience in.
As a younger kid who used to be in trades, the 80 hour week standard, work eat and sleep attitude by everyone over 35 really killed it for me. There has to be more to life than just hammering nails and collapsing into bed
some people don't know what to do if they don't have some sorta purpose, like working hammering nails... It is kinda strange
This is why I quit being a mechanic. I got so sick of cars that I even gave up on the 10+ year long resto-mod I was building.
exactly. Theres a reason why people don't want to do it.
Sad to say this but the majority of people in the Trades have no ambition or sense of self-worth and hate people that do. They say things like "gotta put in the work" or "pay your dues" when what they actually mean is that they weren't smart or ambitious enough to go into business for themselves as soon as they possibly could and resent people who refuse to spend decades working their ass off to make other people rich.
...pansy...
It's not just the trades. I see the same thing in industry: real wages declining, job security a distant memory, expectations completely delusional.
True. Working in general just sucks! They want u to be super skilled, pulled in 5 directions LITERALLY!! And dont even make enough to afford a one bedroom and pay your car note to get there.
Live by capootalism, dye by capootalism
I think either Texas or Florida just mandated that employers aren’t obligated to give construction worker water breaks? I may have got part of this wrong, but it boils down to removing protections to insure that construction workers working outdoors in the heat do not have protections for water breaks. That’s the issue, not that I mixed up the state. 😢
It’s called being raped by inflation
Yet 6 figures readily available and still no takers.
Growing up my father repeatedly told me to never get into the trades(he did electrical), the work was so difficult and unrewarding, and I would see him suffer from the stress of work and alcoholism. I was pushed into college by school counselors and parents, and after graduation was not able to find a decent job (in the US anyway). Years later, he congratulates and is proud of other young men getting into the trade, while putting down people who went to college. It's those kind of mind games that makes his generation insufferable.
This is the first time I've heard of anyone saying not to get into a trade. Your dad was insane. Though I agree on the college funnel. Frankly, not everyone needs college and now we have a generation of underpaid and overqualified kids with crippling debt and a distaste for any sort of handiwork
@@bignickenergy3525 My dad pushed me to go to college. The trades aren't for everyone and there's not a lot of money in the trades. For every rare guy making $200k as a tradesmen, I can match against a software dev making $350-400k while working from their mansion.
My friends that graduated from college were gifted 5 houses from their parents just for finishing (they owned more than 100). The trades make good money at time, by you can't forget that the tradesmen who own their own shop can't compete with Bay Area start ups who can pull millions. Or business majors that can pull down millions with just as much hard work.
This is how tradesmen generally treat any potential apprentices. Every day is mind games, ridicule and abuse. All while being paid in a week what they make in one hour. Toxic industry from bottom to top.
My whole family are tradesmen. You’d think I’d know all sorts of tips and tricks. Hell, I worked on the job site my entire teens. Only problem is I was never taught anything. As soon I was given an opportunity to actually do anything other than clean up or carry materials I was immediately screamed at for either going too slow or because I was doing it wrong and kicked off of the task. Never had the opportunity to actually get a hang of anything. As I got older I would get called stupid and all sorts of names because when they were my age they knew how to do it all. The older generation are the problem.
Are you me? That's the reason why I never learned anything either and then they blame me!
"I don't know why people aren't going into the trades?" "My knees don't work anymore and I'm 36." Gotcha.
Need some good knee pads. But need to look at it like you are an athlete because if you don't want to be that guy who is broken by 40, you need to take care of yourself.
True story.
For my job, I sit all day and my knees still hurt, lol.
Comments like that is why people don't do it. Always negative. You sound like you are scared of some hard work.
That's why all the Mexican people are here working (Please look at my second paragraph). I have no ill will towards any of them and I know they're trying to make a living for their family here and in Mexico. People have got to do what they got to do, when our government does what they do with drug enforcement.
Now here's the crux of the matter. Due to the fact we have all the Mexicans here doing construction, It Has Cut The Knees Out From Under The Labor Force With Hourly Wages. As everybody knows labor is an hourly pay job. It's not a salary job and give it a few more years, Mexicans will be doing all the air conditioning work next. Mark my damn words.
a little correction i would like to make for you , the bricklayer does not have the hardest job , , , THE BRICKLAYERS HELPER DOES , , , that poor bastard is worked to death .
Absolutely the truth. I worked with a bricklayer 40 years ago he said he could lay 500 bricks a day . I told him that he could do that only if he had a real Ballsy laborer otherwise he would be lucky to lay 100.He then asked who I had labored for, i told him who I had worked for for 3 days till I got a groin pull (I was 16 at the time )he said you learned the hard truth about bricklaying.
Aren't those folks called Hod carriers? Either way, those guys were huge after 1 season.
Years ago they might have had it tough. Nowadays bricklayers have it much harder.
@@paulsmith5218 Why harder now?
You got to start somewhere.
I've been saying it for about 2 years now... Young people are done being paid pennies to do hard work. Thank you for not trashing young people (like most people our age do) thank you for the reality of what's going on
dude ive worked for a whole year as a drive wall worker, 60-70 hours a week and only being paid like 20 euros a day. of course im gonna leave. i dont want to brake myself mentally and physically for that
@@tomislavmidanovic8666 exactly
Exactly dude. I was getting paid less than a Walmart worker. I quit and decided to do something else. Wasn’t worth the physical challenges and the hard work knowing someone is getting high in the back of Walmart making more than me.
I’m 64 and agree with you.. The Man wants you always to work like a galley slave for nothing, but, the chickens are coming home to roost.. Gotta pay more and treat better.. Not rocket science
I make over 100k a year working around 35-40 hrs a week as a union glazier. 52.27 per hour after my benefits which puts me at about 83-85$ an hour. My hourly on my check is often around 58 because I do run work about 70% of the time . The other 30$ or so goes towards my pension, 401k, health and welfare and various other things. I’m not kidding when I say that I’ve made over 25k in a month many times . We get into working 6x10’s or even 7x12’s and the pay is ridiculous! Like 5500 to 6000 PER WEEK. IRS takes a nice bite of it but it’s still a nice paycheck. We do have a licensed, accredited apprenticeship program that runs for 5 years and 10,000 hours between classroom and on the job. My son in law just started working with me (actually a year ago) and he went from $17 up to $23 already. And will continue to climb until he reaches the journeyman scale once he completes the program. I feel like it’s a very respectable, reasonable income. I’ll never get rich but i can honestly say that I cannot remember the last time I wanted for something I couldn’t have.
My husband is 56 yo and has been in the construction industry for 30+ years. His body is broken and tired and honestly for the amount of money we’ve made through the years in hinds sight we’ve been robbed. The knee and shoulder surgeries he’s facing will be astronomical. We have encouraged our son to stay far away from the trades. People have zero respect for those in the trades industry. I don’t want our son to go through what we have gone through. I want a better life for him.
That’s so sad. It would not be hard to make trades less taxing on the body and having a better pay but that would require the bosses to make less money and safely we all know it’s not gonna happen. I a carpenter myself and I wish only the best for you husband and you kid
@@inkognito3145 thank you very much.
How long were you a carpenter and if you werent why are you speaking as if your pain paid for what you have?
Same with football players.
America will plunder and squeeze you dry. This place is a tomb for men. Prison planet.
Another casualty of our generational break in the trades is the lack of guidance. If you don't have a family member or friend who's in the trades, nobody is there to tell you how things *really* work.
When I was 17, I tried to get into the carpenter's union. They put my name down on a queue for the pre-apprenticeship. A year later, I got connected and discovered that nobody was actually drawn from the list in reality-- you needed to have someone to 'sponsor' you, at which point you could be selected. If I hadn't gotten lucky, I'd be another of thousands of young aspiring carpenters who just couldn't get in.
I spent a year walking into sites with my bags on, looking for work. I framed sheds and practised all manner of things on my own. I read books, tried to understand what I was doing. I visited probably around 50 sites, at least one a week, and nobody was willing to take me on board, even for below minimum wage. The gatekeeping in the trades can be a bit insane sometimes
It's like they want, fit young, workers with 50 years experience. They won't train, they act like the world is a video game.
The only reason the guy in the video was able to get in was because someone was mentoring him since 13. A newbie doesn't stand a chance
As someone who's trying to get into the trades (Masonry) this is the first thing I noticed, have seen ads posted for months begging for workers but because I have no experience no one is willing to give me a chance, the gatekeeping is the #1 problem imo. Gonna take what little money I have and move to a different state where the probability of finding a masonry job is higher.
That wasn't experience back in early 2000's, I wanted to be a sparky. I gave up trying to find an apprenticeship and retrained in IT, and I got scooped up within weeks of completing my course.
its the old boomers in the trades (same issues are in every other field with them). They dont want to mentor they want young guys to make them more money. Thats why they keep the mentoring at a minimum so they can always pay them as low as possible with the young guys having no chance to go anywhere else.
These boomers did that with their own children and now the grandchildren noticed the plan and simply refuse to be abused which pisses those boomers of.
I live in Southern California(it might be different here). I think nepotism is killing the trades. Its too difficult to get in. I am an electrician I wanted to switch to carpentry. I wanted to learn different skills with my own handy man business being the goal. To get into the union you needed to be “sponsored”. To get a non union job you needed experience. What it really came down to is you needed to know somebody.
Mahn you want to get paid less by switching from an electrician to a carpenter
@@chriswarren9857 it may not be about money for him, it could simply be building a repertoire!
Also So Cal. I tried to get a carpenter out to replace fascia boards around my roofline while getting the roof done and could not find anyone. The roofer I hired tried to find someone but all his contacts were busy. I ended up just patching the existing boards with epoxy filler, sanding and painting. I've also learned basic plumbing and electrical because I can buy the materials and do it for a fraction of the cost of a tradesperson. Amazing how expensive (per hour) the trades have gotten in the last 30 years.
Come to Florida. No unions and plenty of opportunity. Anyone with 2 hands can make good money. It's not you, it's your LOCATION.
@@sidehustlefinancedoes the florida pay rate for carpentry provide a good life with money after bills?
Electrician here, 29 years old and been at it since i'm 21. Fully Licensed and have my Red seal certification (Canada btw). I used to charge customers the best price I could do for them but honestly after 5 years of that and scraping by because of the tool costs/fuel/vehicle I started to bid what I felt I was worth. 100$/HR or more often a estimate...I lost alot of customers for a while but I realized something. These people would get a hell of a good price from me and then push me even more on price always looking for deal like my knowledge/skills were in the discount section, the price I gave was never good enough for them. The clients I get now know the value of a good tradesperson and will PAY for the work to be done and done right. They never push back on price and when I get a phone call for something and give a price if the person says "seems pretty expensive, I could of had it done for half that" well guess what, call that guy up and let him burn your house down for cents on the dollar. TBH, younger workers coming in the field now are being paid too little, our first years here can make more at walmart.
Electricians start at 22-25$/h, wallmart is 14$. What are you talking about
@@Lion-hj7ch where im to in Eastern Canada Jman wage for commercial work is $26/h and our apprentices get 60% of that wage as a 1st year so $15.6/h. Hardly worth the actual work you will be doing vs a Mc Donald's or Walmart or at least thats what i've been told by first years I knew that gave up the trade. Your mileage may vary though
@@jasonedgar1622 whoah! That is so strange. I've been in New condo construction in Toronto for 8 years now. I talk to other trades all the time cause my job is dead end and not unionized, I'm have a spot open for framing once they're done the strike. They're offering me 22 for start, my friend started 25. Once you finish your apprentice you make 45-50, plus a bonus if you're good with the company. Plumbers, electricians, HVAC, all get 50+.
Also piece work framers, if they're good, they can make 4000$ a week. Max I've seen 6k a week, but that's not often. Stars have to align for that
I once worked for a boss that believe that the first focus of his company was give the customer the best value for their money. That essentially lead to him not making the best profits from a business standpoint and that trickled down to his employees not being paid very well. And the typical week was 45-50hrs a week, lots of time out of town for the day, and exclusively exterior work all year round. It was brutal and I worked for him for 7 years. I barely got by. If I wasn't a dumb kid burned out of college, I should have moved on long before and started something more lucrative.
Long story short, like you said, don't prioritize giving people a great deal on your expertise. You don't start a company to run a charity.
@@jasonedgar1622 at least your honest, here in new york city ibew its 48 a hour for a journeyman, but first years get only 40 percent, which is 19.2 dollars, once folks year that they run for the hills. remember the way the pay scale is the first three years your wages will be alot lower. So folks decide to work retail or mc donalds while looking for a better situation. The city jobs offer better starting wages and perks like free metro cards, a electrical helper for the new york transit start at 23 a hour and after the first year you can take the test to become a electrical maintainer and go from 23 a hour to 41.
Heck local 94 building eingineers start helpers out at 35 a hour and after four years they make 50 a hour. you start off with 70 percent wages of the journeyman.
Preach it, man. I'm leaving the trade myself because of low wages.. it barely pays rent. And it's freaking sad that I build houses for others but can't even afford to have my own
Carpenter and 60 in one month. Live in apartment. Built over 50 houses only in USA.
Same thing here.. i work in Germany as a Carpenter and the payment is nearly 2000-2500euro a month. My house rent costs 1300euro. It's mad how can a house cost so much money. And the payment is just enough to pay rent bills and food. Lets all open youtube/twitch and nobody should work.
It's like a butcher not being able to afford meat
Yea I’m leaning towards leaving. I’m the youngest one at every job I’m only 21 it’s sucks to see fast food and other jobs make a bit less. Yet we more work
Not gonna lie, I thought you were gonna go with "lazy kids these days just don't wanna work", but you made a hard left and went with "pay workers more". 👍
Yeah, big respect. Young people do want to work, they just want to get paid enough to live and the people who do work now need to get paid more. Young or old, workers aren't the problem here.
Ya, good luck getting contracts when you have to pay every employee $40 an hour.
Nobody will give you jobs, because other people will just under bid you lol
@@jays903
The reason that they can undercut you is because immigration is not being controlled. Under normal circumstances, scarcity drives up value. But in this case, scarcity drives up third world immigration.
When the supplies of labor goes lower than the demands, the price/wage will naturally go up.
But it won't go up much since at some point construction would just hire cheap immigrant, so the prospect is pretty fked up.
@@tallswede80 if you can't be a better contractor than a guy that doesn't have any education or speaks English then I have no pity. I know guys that make a killing fixing fucked up jobs the previous guy made.
I tried to get into the trades. Getting in was impossible. I gave up after two years. Just taught myself what I needed to know by working on my Mom's house. Might not have been perfect. But I learned a lot. A real shame. Most people don't have time to just sit around and wait to be selected. The trades are losing a lot of good folks by being so restrictive.
I agree, I learned a lot of what I know from my father and the rest from research and trial and error
Learned alot from my father and grandfather cousins uncles we ran a ranch. Fixed our own roofs and put up fences. We built barns that stood in 100 mph winds....i got experience but 'im a woman'
My cousin just got into the plumber’s union after years of waiting, and his father has strong connections to the highway dept. If it was difficult for someone like him, it’s pretty much impossible for most
Let's be clear. You had trouble getting into a trade UNION not the trade itself. Anyone who is not afraid of doing the hard work can get a JOB in a trade craft. Then you turn that job into a CAREER and before you know you are a skilled craftsman.
@@keithbrown3875I was just about to say this
Ethan, that was epic! I couldn't agree more. I'm a 60 year old self-employed carpenter who doesn't run a crew or advertise, and have far more work than I can do, and the backlog in my neck of the woods is long. And yet people still seem amazed when I want $40 per hour to show up with enough tools and materials to fill a tractor trailer, and decades of experience in all fields of construction. But they're starting to catch on. And I'm tired of giving it away. The body's still holding up, but who knows how long that will continue. Thanks for speaking up for us.
Thank you drfrank! You hit the nail right on the head. I didn’t even get into the WAREHOUSE of tools and materials we purchase and re-purchase just to operate. But I’m glad you’re still working well. Keep sticking to your guns-and keep those higher bids coming in!
I tell people even before they open their mouths, the van costs £15,000; ($20,000), the fuel to run it costs X; the tools in it are £4,000; the man has £40,000 worth of training, he has spec’d out your job & he is geared up for any job any customer may request, not just you, plus the materials don’t fall out of the sky, plus not every merchant sells everything. He has overheads.....That’s when I take a breath. I look at them; “so you were saying” Furthermore, I say this to people & it isn’t even my job I’m talking about. I got out of the trade over 30 years ago. But still in the industry in management.
Most homeowners are stupid and don't realize what a good deal they are getting!
$40 too low sir.
Supply and demand. You should be aiming for $50-$55 per hour. Maybe more depending on your market. If the customer doesn't want to pay it, they can just do it themselves.
I used to be a carpenter for 5 years. Got all the way up to a foreman. My body hurt all the time, the weather sucked. Started in my early twenties. I now work as a mechatronics technician, make almost triple what I used to, and it's significantly less stressful and hurtful. My time as a carpenter was harder then my military service (navy).
I'm ex navy and a house framer so my question is what the heck was your rating to make it that bad? Were you a seabee or in deck division or something.
I was an EM in the navy. I think it was more that my carpenter time was also basically a walking osha violation mixed with very long hours.
@@drost47 I was a DC. And my first osha violation was for no fall restraint. I am as well, a walking osha violation. Hello fellow snipe/ carpenter dude. Peace to you.
but i bet you were a beast in a bedroom.
I once considered getting into carpentry. The problem was that the entry level jobs paid so much less than my restaurant job that I couldn’t justify spending years working harder for significantly less money.
In the Midwest, Lyman USB is hiring starting $20 with no experience. That being said I don't know if I want others to suffer through the job I have. I'm 24 and my knees/bones in my hands start to ache in winter. However if there's only 10 seats on a rocket ship, out of 40/50 I think my seat should be reserved 🤙
@@Dbeau61 there aren't many trees to use the wood for carpentry on Mars, i think your seat might get taken lol
@@Jrock420blam is was a joke lol
In my area, even the apprenticeship positions ask for at least a year or two experience in carpentry or construction. No way in hell can I get my foot in now, where I am in my career.
@@Dbeau61 if I took a job making $20/hour I’d have been taking a pay cut from every serving job I’ve ever had. Also, yeah, I’m 48 and my joints are all pretty healthy. I’m not sure you can even put a price tag on that.
My dad is a carpenter. He’s 64 and he’s retired twice now. All he has to do is put out the word he’s willing to some work and he has people lining up to pay him $60/hr and he refuses to work more than 5 hours a day if he agrees to do any work at all. Turns down >90% of offers because he makes more money building and selling furniture. Dude is a master and I’m lucky to have him as a dad. I can fix my own everything and building/selling furniture with him is fun.
May I ask, is it because he's well known in his industry by now? I would've thought with the scarcity mentioned, even young carpenters can charge more with the housing boom.
Congratulations on his furniture business!! What kind of furniture does he make??
@@SoloSanguine you ever hear the phrase “you get what you pay for?” 45 years of experience costs extra. Plus, he only does actual carpentry work nowadays 3-4 days a month if that instead working in his shop, so don’t worry - your statistical dunk is still valid.
@@jimknowles5483 Patio furniture mostly. Tried to get into higher end living room stuff, but people keep asking for patio furniture. Sunny climate here...it makes sense.
@@jkdubya85 Hey thanks! Great to see him appreciated for his abilities! Are most of his patio
clients upscale? Or just regular income? I'll bet you can see the quality! Do you have a web site?
Thanks again!
just jim
This is just my personal experience. I used to work as a carpenter's apprentice. I loved the actual work but I generally hated working with my foreman (not just one but multiple companies). I wasn't the best but I really wanted to learn at one point but getting yelled or insulted for almost every mistake you make along the way isn't fun. Yeah work isn't supposed to be "fun" but when you're lifting heavy materials all day in the sun having someone yell at you just makes it 10x worse. I left the construction industry and I will never look back
Keep your head up dude. Ive quit so many framing jobs I lost count. I'm not going to work my ass of for you, making you money and be treated like shit. I promise, they all missed me. Its a rough crowd, stand your ground.
Okay real talk why shouldn't work, the thing we devote 50+ hours of our weeks to every week for 2/3rds of our life, be something we enjoy?
@@thomaswhite3059 True, that's kinda the whole point. Don't waste your life doing something that you'll get paid for but won't satisfy you. Especially in this day and age where skillsets are so specialized that it can be hard to switch paths once you're set; unless you purposely set yourself up for flexibility early on.
@@lab6895 $11 an hour? Jesus man. The only time I ever got "respected" on the job was when I confronted my foreman about his attitude. Just asked him if we had a problem and why he was being aggressive. The next couple of weeks were fine but still not a great feeling to have to do that on the job.
Foreman have gotten mad at me for asking questions too, really dumb when you think about it. It's literally the only way you learn.
@delreydavid What a boomer ass take. There's a difference between being willing to work for a living and not letting someone treat you like you're less than human.
I was a carpenter for over 20 years, I started my career in Oregon when I was a teenager. The pay was shit and the only way to demand more money at that time was to become a master level carpenter by learning basically everything but the older guys “gate kept” their knowledge out of fear of being replaced. I can’t even remember how many times I asked a journeyman to teach me how to build stairs on a jobsite just to be laughed at. Then one day the construction calculator was invented so I went out and bought one for like $100 which was alot of money for a kid back in the 90’s who was making $12 hr. But once I bought it I soon realized that I had no idea how to use it, but I knew if I studied the manual long enough Id get it. So I studied the manual every night for a couple hours and would build houses on paper and in my mind until my fictitious measurements and divisions would “pencil out” and I became confident enough to be able to tackle a project without embarrassing myself. As time went on I did a few stair cases and learned how to do hip and valley cuts on roofs until one day I asked my boss for a raise. After all I had learned I thought $5 was fair he offered $2 so I quit and moved to California and was immediately hired as a foreman making $25. I quickly realized that there were “good cities” and “bad cities” to work in as a carpenter and with that knowledge in hand I moved to many great cities on the west coast eventually moving to Hawaii, by the time I quit the industry I was in my early thirties, working 3-4 days a week and made 150k a year (which was barely getting by in Hawaii) my advice to apprentice carpenters is to not stay at any one company for too long, instead of waiting for a raise just apply at another shop and get that raise immediately. And also be willing to move where the money is. It doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to know that the pay in Honolulu is going to be considerably more attractive than the pay in Eugene Oregon
Thank you so much! This is motivational
All the young people know to job hop every couple years to maximize earnings. It's the only way to diversify your experience and make the most out of any skill/trade.
I'm an electrician and I learned very quickly that the easiest way to move up (get a raise, learn more, take on more responsibility) was to move on to another contractor. Right now I make $46.01/hr working on government contracts as a non-union sparky.
@@LenKirinyou only know because we told you 😂. We showed you how to do that trick.
It's the difference between working with a union and working without. I don't like unions, but they definitely get you the pay you deserve.
A good carpenter makes every other trades life easier. Poor ones create nightmares.
@Jody Whitehead - Said perfectly .
So true, Jody. Ask any plumber who’s found a joist right beneath a toilet flange location 😬
@@TheHonestCarpenter when I started contracting my first job was to correct all the things some bozo did to a sweet lady's house. Whoever it was had no idea what he was doing. The idiot did things like cutting the nailing flanges off custom made windows. the joists were all under size, and not on 16 inch centers. His idea for fixing a leak in the garage was to puit up sheets of thin plywood and caulk the edges. I could go on, but just say it was such a mess it cost more to undo than it would have cost to do it all right in the first place. I could not do much about the widows with the nailing flanges cut off, all I could do was seal around them and put on tight fitting trim. (the lady didn't want to pay for custom fit windows all over again, and I don't blame her.)
@@TheHonestCarpenter Plumber here, we deal with that all the time. Most framers are terrible; crooked studs, twisted floor joists, every hole you drill you hit nails, etc. The difference it makes when you get good framers vs. bad framers is night and day. We did a house about a month ago and the framer actually moved the joist over a few inches because he knew the toilet was going there. I've never seen a framer actually do that before and look out for the plumber like that compared to the house we're doing now which had terrible framers and the joists were dead center where the toilet flanges had to go... on all 3 toilets in the house. The framers were still on site finishing up so we ripped them good. Of course, all we got out of them was 'no habla ingles'.
Very true, I run into that issue a lot.
It seems like the quality of carpentry has gone down too for similar reasons. My house was built in 1959 and when I look at the framing in the attic everything fits together perfectly. My garage was built in 2016 and there’s massive gaps, especially anywhere that involves an angled cut. I think a big part of that is because we prioritize cutting costs via labor which pressures workers to rush rather than take the time to do things right.
To a lot of companies it is speed and not quality that counts. Many years ago my father had lots he wanted to sell and no bank would give a mortgage on an empty lot. He hired a company to build houses on each lot (one at a time) and in the contract he stated that the construction was to be to his satisfaction. Each evening he went to the house and checked that the walls were plumb, straight, and all work was top notch. Several times he had to halt the job to have the carpenters remake an un-square wall or have them tear a wall down because the timbers were all over the place.
You can thank the customers for that. They want cheap quick labor. Good labor is not cheap and it's not quick.
The thing with angled cuts is, and i'm not being sarcastic here, this is a real issue: most carpenters can't do basic trigonometry and mess up the angles.
Aside from some community colleges and trade schools that still give trade certificate training. There is no where else to properly learn the hands on and theory needed for a skilled trade.
So a lot of younger guys have no choice but “eye ball” everything and assume it’s gonna work.
@@alexsmith-ob3lu There are many trade schools that train people in the trades. My son went to a 3 semester school and now after 10 years out he is making just short of 100 thousand dollars. Or try to find a good independent carpenter and app with him. The other way is to find a union program that you like in electrical, plumbing, carpentry, or any other trade and go through their schooling. A person willing to work hard in the trades now can make a great living.
I'm a 66 year old Carpenter and have always been busy. I have raised my rates to $ 60. an hour . to be a good carpenter doing residential work , you also need to know and understand the needs of the other trades. When my Mechanical tradesmen were telling me of their great importance , i reminded them that without the Carpenter they have no place to hang the pipe, run the wire or ductwork Remembe ALL WORK IS HONORABLE
You are few and far between, and I'm sure you already know that.
You are correct, I have worked as an electrician and a carpenter. Both jobs are hard and they need each other.
Only 60?
As n hvac i conquere
I am 65 in the UK. Still up for it. I have never pitched myself as fast or slow. Good or bad does it for me every time. Horses for courses I say.
I really think the shortage is due to the ‘live to work attitude’ & toxic workplace. I’ve seen apprentices get dropped for the stupidest of things to the point of just journeyman not liking them. I feel like all that has to change.
It's a trade. We aren't friends. You have to be good enough to make up for the people not liking you.
@@user-zu5do6ri6rFor $25 an hour? Fuck that, you can make that driving a forklift and wearing headphones all day not dealing with salty fucks
@user-zu5do6ri6r
The issue is gatekeeping. There are people who arent given a proper chance to learn the skills, and so they cant get good enough. If someone isnt given the chance to learn properly, then youre creating your own issue of a labor shortage.
@@pinesandtraplinesbasically our whole society in a nut shell. Everything you can learn is hidden behind a gatekeeper or a fucking pay wall.
@@user-zu5do6ri6ryeah that’s why no one likes tradies. Die alone
I’m 26 and have been working for a local custom builder for 2 years. There is no formal training for carpentry in my area like hvac and plumbing. The carpenters I work with have little patience and are very proud. There is little incentive for builders and carpenters to train a rookie they just want to finish the job as efficiently as possible and start the next one.
That's true...my uncle use to yell at us novices with we were learning..."You're costing me money" by being a bit slower to finish a job. Not a good leader or helpful in for a young rookie to stay in the field!
Fake it til you make it. That’s the training method. I’m a framer and I get new guys that stick around every once in a while. These jobs aren’t for everyone. Only the stubborn survive
@@merkinyall "Fake It" on a construction job? I wonder if you ever have been on a construction job (might work on a union featherbedding job).
@@tommak6516 oh boy. That’s a popular phrase in the industry. I’ve been building custom homes for over 25 years. Not union.
@@merkinyall The popular phrase I am familiar with on constructions sites is not 'Fake it' but 'F*ck it'.
It's amazing what 40 years of saying "go to college, you don't want to be flipping burgers when you're older do you?" Will do to a country
It’s criminal that millions upon millions of parents bought into those lies and pushed their own children into the hands of predatory colleges and their promotion of loan-shark lending practices through banks and Federal Institutions.
Nobody should need to mortgage their future in order to be a productive member and contribute to society.
We live in a country where women sell bottles of farts for 95,000+ per year while some of the most important jobs for the country require you to work 80+ hour weeks and you do not even make 80,000. This countries idea of what should be valued, rewarded and incentivized is messed up.
Yup. When I was growing up, the message was that a college degree was the only thing that could set you up for success. Now I've got a fancy degree and a corporate American career that's driving me nuts. I've thought about changing up and being a tradesman, but I don't know if the pay cut makes sense. Do I muddle along for the sake of a paycheck, or try to find something I can actually be passionate about and really enjoy doing? We might need to rethink our definition of success.
thats not the issue. The issue is high inflation, high taxes and low pay. 50 years ago the average assembly line worker could afford a new car every year and every 5 years a new house. Meanwhile today as a teamleader engineer making more than 100k a year you can barely afford a decent car after 5 years and a house never.
The "go to college or you will be flipping burgers" is a bit incorrect it should say "go to college and manage to get one of the degrees that get you one of the highest paying jobs or it wont make a difference how much you work cause you will have nothing anyway"
@@dergunter1237 That is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. The cause of that problem is that we are producing less value then we are using. This results in everything you described.
Big corporations are still producing value, but that is because they are sending productivity offshore and are hogging the value to themselves. They are still producing less overall value then before too. They relatively just have more value then the rest of us.
And why is that happening? Because we are relying on old archaic systems to maintain order from over 200 years ago. We just keep it functional via bandaid fixes but those are inefficient and have diminishing returns.
Just look at how outdated copyright is and look up how bad monopolies are right now. They get around laws via stealth companies that you do not even know exist. Like what company owns 90+% of porn? the media?
Fuck, Fox News and CNN are owned by the same person.
Like you cannot create the new McDonalds because the laws will prevent you from doing it. Software was the last bastion of hope for a decade or so, but now the laws are resulting in a few big companies owning everything.
You cannot be the next bill gates, google steals the credit for your inventions and ideas now.
All you can do is get ahead via entertainment and that is also becoming saturated.
Our system also undervalues productivity and overvalues pleasure. A onlyfans model is worth more then a irreplaceable software developer.
Since atleast the 1990s, we have been decelerating at a exponential rate. We just had a lot of previous built up momentum that kept pushing us forward. So we did not even start feeling it until the mid 2000s.
And the solution is to fix the system.
No, not socialism. Just an update to what we have to make it functional with technological advances in mind.
You know, everyone says there's a labor shortage, but try getting a job fresh out of trade school right now. No one's hiring welders unless you've got 5 years experience.
Apply anyway. Lie if you can
this world is nuts not trying to train people dumbass!
Carpentry isn't welding...
Shipyards will hire
Why would you hire someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing that’s why you become an apprentice smh ......
Dude… this video is spot on, you’ve got a new subscriber now… I’m 38yrs old, got out of carpentry bc of the 08’ recession. Sold my soul to a local factory that’s been in business for over a 100yrs. I now do “handyman stuff” on the side and could damn near go full time and have less than 50-100 clients. When my 11yr old son helps me out I tell him “be an electrician”. Crazy accurate video, well done sir!!! Well done!!
Im 61 and have been in the trades since age 20. I have had people ask so many times " you want how much ?" Yet they sit behind a computer and make three times the amount.
Human nature. I'm proud to say "yep...that much." ...now, after 3 decades of experience
They can go do it their selves then! 👍👍
You are absolutely right sir! What can you do, media tells the young kids that everybody can be a rap star and make millions.....
And think they got it so much worse than you. They wouldn’t last a week.
I just tell them "skilled labor isn't cheap, and cheap labor isn't skilled. Hire a cheap tradesmen, but remember, I charge double to fix someone else's mistakes".
In 1989 I was making $15 per hour as a framer/carpenter. A couple of weeks ago I saw an ad in the local newspaper for framers- $15-$24 per hour depending on experience. The cost of housing here in North Idaho is 8-10 times more than in 1989. I agree with you Honest Carpenter, we are undervalued. I’m 62 now and I still take on a few small jobs, but I tell young people to become an electrician, plumber or hvac guy.
What a rip off, offer $15.00 - $24.00/hr for experienced carpenters?! Then he will complain about he can't find any help, everyone is too lazy, Gawd!
I spent the last 10 years watching wages evaporate from 45$/hr(10 years ago) to now 25$/hr as I have worked towards becoming a carpenter, now there are no carpenters just labourers doing carpentry. Its a real problem when you actually want to be a carpenter
@@thomasalison6188 story of my life
FYI, $15 a hour in 1989 is $31.82 in todays money (2021). Worse, as you said, housing is way more, healthcare is way more. So is anyone wondering why there aren't any more carpenters? Because people are getting underpaid more often than not.
When balconies, etc. start caving in, a lot of people will ask for carpenters and will be given directions to purchase a hammer, nails and a hardhat with a "good luck 👍" instead.
Being a carpenter should really demand a higher pay rate, the amount of flexibility you have to have, and the wear and tear on the body, truly justifies a much, much higher income...
The carpenter made more cash then most men on a piret ship
GENERAL STRIKE NOW! Then form a union immediately after.
I'm learning carpentry in Iceland and they teach us every part of building a house. We don't have special trades for drywalling, roofing etc. If you are a carpenter in Iceland you do everything and get paid accordingly. which brings me to his point that money is the biggest motivator, new carpenters get paid 100 an hour minimum.
@@siggimikki5110 thanks Siggi for reminding us we are living in the third world! Sad thing is we are supposed to be the first world among the first worlds. But our democracy has been hijacked so a handful of dbags can buy more uber expensive sht they don't need.... Iceland 2022!
I asked a commercial building contractor I worked with if he knew of a finish carpenter for some work at my house. He said, "You'll never find him because I will find him before you do and I ain't found one for years."
I'm a young guy who went to trade school for HVAC and worked in the field for about a year and a half. When I worked in the field I noticed that guys were making maybe a third at most of what they were charging hourly because of things like insurance costs, tool costs, and the amount of time you were driving as opposed to actually making money. This meant the only way to reliably make a ton was to start a business. Because of my physique (5'8" and 110 lbs) I physically cannot do most labor intensive jobs like furnace installs, condenser swaps, or attic ductwork myself so that makes it nearly impossible for me to start an HVAC business. I realized pretty quickly that if I wanted to make a lot of money I had no choice other than a 4 year degree so I got out of HVAC. The reality is it's orders of magnitude easier for me to make money with a degree than in the trades so I got out.
I was apprenticing as a Joiner/Cabinetmaker, the wages being payed for high level work was so depressing it chased me off. Now I shovel sawdust and get payed almost double, enough to pay off my loans from cabinetry school. The trades are so undervalued.
Not just building / furniture trades either. A lot of people raise their eyebrows at paying over £200 for a fully custom item / prop that takes 50-100 hours to make. I guess China brought people's expectations of price down. I suppose cheap mass manufactured furniture did the same.
That's exactly my path. I'm interested to make furniture.
@@skywardsoul1178 sounds like people don't know how to do the front end of the business also. It's one thing to have a skill or product but it has to reach the customers in order to make bank.
Everything is done online and with apps now...
and than people have the cheek to complain about quality...
I made more working in retail than I did building custom furniture for restaurants and billion dollar tech companies. People expect quality work but aren't willing to pay for it.
As an old guy of 76 who raised five kids on a carpenter’s wages… you are right on. After pounding nails for twenty years I had an opportunity to sell houses instead of building them. Fifteen years later I was able to retire comfortably. I loved carpentry but was constantly broke and sometimes on food stamps.
Happy for you Randy !
Surprised a 76 y/o is on youtube...
@@wtfwtfomfg why tho? My grann is 83 and she whatsapp me, shares pics, is on facebook, and uses youtube, wouldn't put past her to comment in a video if she was interested.
What did you do to sell Houses?
It's not Skilled Labor's Fault, it's the fault of the greedy business owners. If skilled trades professionals were paid what they are truly worth as opposed to the owners who Think they are worth more, you wouldn't have a shortage of good labor. Besides, in a shorter time than you think, skilled labor/DIYers will be a thing of the past. Then you will be stuck with JUNK for a price that only the rich can afford. It has already started.
You hit it right on the head . We are under valued . I think a little bit has to do with carpentry is easy in theory but difficult to execute. Alongside the thousands of dollars of having the right tool for the job.
Very true, James. I didn’t even get into the crazy amount of overhead we have in tools, insurance, vehicles and storage, but now I really wish I’d mentioned it.
@@TheHonestCarpenter I'm becoming a metal machinist what do you think that field looks like going forward
@@printgymnast368 I can't help you there, but you need to follow Robin Renzetti. Amazing machinist. Hes on YT and IG
@@TheHonestCarpenter tools and saws prices are crazy! don't forget nails and nailing. 10000 never ending pain!
@james Sekul Bro you don't have to tell me about crazy overhead.... I am just about done replacing all my tools (rebranded from one to another company and replacing ones that were stolen). in the past, roughly 2 and 1/2 weeks or so, I have spent about $3,000 in tools and accessiories for them. and I am still not done yet. I need a couple more pieces and then I would be done w/ the exception of the recurring pieces (screws, nails, glue etc). it is legitimately insane how much overhead there is. And after your tools are bought, MORE overhead, such as electrical bill and insurance(as y'all stated) and cost for delivering a piece(milaege, wear and tear on vehicle, tolls etc) it adds up crazy fast. but personally I enjoy it I love building things, whether it's a bedframe or a tv/entertainment center, or a table, so on and so forth. it gives me something to do on my days off from my main job. and you can make some money in this field it just might take a while to do so, depending on what you're building, incidental purchases, shipping or delivery, etc. but it is possible. I just finished building a dresser for a coworker at my main job, which was the money I used to buy a small worksite fan & a new 5" random orbiatal sander both with their own batteries. I could have continued to use the sanding block but this will be faster allowing me to get more done faster so I can make more things and get paid more money.
There's been a labor shortage since 2010; one of the reasons I got out of the business. I lost tens of thousands in contracts because I couldn't get the job done quickly enough.
As a 22 year old independent carpenter, electrician, handyman, etc. I work everyday with 2/3 people who are 45+ years old, and have kids my age. This video was very accurate.
Good shit bro , get to that bag 👍🏽👍🏽
I feel you bro. Im 21 years old and i hardly ever see anyone my age in the trade.
@@Babbycomebackk 23 & majority guys I work with have been doing it since before i was born ha,
I'm a 33 year old insulator, mostly work in attics so I can relate to hard work, good luck to you all.
I’m 27 and I’m right there with ya boss
Another reason to add shop, and auto mechanics back to high school curriculum!
My husband is a shop teacher specializing in woodworking. The students love him and his classes are in demand. We live in rural SW Minnesota. He retires in two years and we wonder where his replacement is going to come from.
Highschool student from LA. Man I wish I had a shop class, it’s such a great learning experience for young people like myself to just get their hands dirty and create something.
Mechanics will be extinct in few years when we all start driving electric.
No we just need more Social Engineering Classes.....LOL!...You are spot on! Most kids coming out of High School don’t even know how to balance a checkbook, or where the money comes from to put into a checking account.....They can’t add, read or write....but they can sure tell you about the injustices of capitalism, and how to protest everything under the sun!
Hate to say it, but the Boomer and and X generations have made things too easy for the current generations to be “soft”. I’m in my 40’s and most people my age or younger can’t even swing a hammer or do basic home maintenance let alone anything requiring any carpentry or mechanical skills. Take pride in being able to be self-sufficient. Learn basic trade skills, even if only for your own use or help out in your community. You’ll feel more confident in yourself and be able to complete some pretty rewarding work you can say you did with your own hands.
I have been a carpenter my entire career. I am 28 and there's a lot of factors to the problem facing the industry. the older guys leading crews have a real issue that's hard to navigate. they need young guys but they want to pay you poorly because you are "less experienced" but the reality is we are in high demand. pay isn't just skill based. its also necessity based. if you want young carpenters you need to make the job desirable and profitable. most importantly you need to value them. the attitude in carpentry is that young men haven't "paid their dues". this short sighted attitude is why you have 70 year old men on there hands and knees. if you want young guys you need to treat them well. because its no longer the economy of working for one company your whole life. people my age are not afraid to jump jobs for more money or a better situation. the problem here is almost entirely the employers. I hope they can rethink there ways before it really hurts the entire country.
Its the employers issue because competition isn't always good for an industry. Once you start trying to bid for jobs and you get outbid by somebody who is willing to give up all his profits then you have to make decisions on where you take the profit from. First it will be the materials, then the tools, then its your employees. The entire construction industry, at least from what I've seen in the areas I've lived in America, is way past the materials and the tools and is deep in shorting the employee base. It only gets worse when you start looking at states that dont require licensing. Its ultra bad when you're either remodeling or you are the last part of the house when the owner starts to pinch pennies. I've moved on though now and I'll never look back.
@@anonnine9994 they're going to pay for it eventually. If they don't wise up to the fact that paying tradesmen poverty wages is a real life problem (especially since many jobs or trade schools won't touch a trainee below the age of 18 anymore), they're going to look up one day and realize there isn't anyone left to do it, then all those people living in big houses or paying bottom dollar on work needed in their office buildings are going to be confused as to why there's no one to call. I used to wonder why there were so many shoddy carpenters and independent tradesmen out there, until one day someone told me that if they stayed around long enough to do the job the way it needs to be done, they wouldn't be able to get enough work in to feed themselves because the clients don't want to pay them what they're worth, even though some of these skills are built over a decade or more rather than plowing through a 4-year degree... Changed my whole perspective on it.
@@my2cents49 oh I 100% agree with you. I told a client one time that me and my father were artists in the work that we do. They laughed and said yeah you all do amazing work for sure and then I said but what do all artists have in common? They starve. The prices that we were having to compete with were so low that it wasn't feasible to even try. Its become more and more of an issue in almost every field outside of major degrees and even those are adding on masters and doctorates to degrees that used to be associates and bachelors. Its a multitude of issues that have built up over time and we see where they are going. Look at China and its buildings that have collapsed on people because cutting corners is how you put up stuff fast.
I’ve been in concrete construction for almost 40 years, and what you describe I partially agree with. Do we need the “young guys”? Sure, us old guys can’t do what we use to. So the hopes are, they can take our place and be what we once were. Problem I see……the young guys can’t even keep up with the old guys, much less do what we did in our past. There just seems to be a lack of heart, grit, pride of working a hard days work. It’s too cold, it’s too hot, why do I have to work overtime? What? You want more money, but won’t work for time and a half? We pay well, $18 for labourers, to start. 28 for carpenters 34 for rod busters. And don’t walk up to me with a hammer and some nails in your pocket and say your a carpenter, most of these young guys don’t even know what a carpenter is. My experience is, as the pay goes up for most of the young guys, the less they show up. Seems they just want that certain amount of money a week and they’ll show up that many hours a week to get it, that’s all
@@bboobb1122334455 despite what you think the pay is average and not at all enticing or anything to hold over someone's head. When adjusted for inflation it's much less then you made when you were in your youth. I'm sorry if you were convinced it's normal to work more than 40 hours to make ends meet but it isn't. 40 hours should enable a person to start a family and buy a house. Like people did in your youth. The truth is you don't realize how much inflation has left wages in the past and you think "these wages are good enough you're just not motivated". That's not going to cut it and that sort of thinking serves only to help you sleep at night.
Here in France, trades are making a huge come back. I think people realized that most degrees aren't the "guaranteed job" tickets they maybe used to be. Meanwhile trades demand is sky high, pays well, and there are plenty of people hiring. My cousins became carpenter and plumber and they're making bank and love their job lol. I hope that 2 years after you made this video, something similar is happening in the US... And that your ol knee is doing okay too!
There is an other reason, when i was working construction i was only getting paid 12 dollars an hour plus getting yelled at constantly.
most people just don't want dehumanizing jobs.
when I was in the millwright union it was the same thing. apprentices are treating like garbage. one of the reasons I just walked in and quit one day.
Yeah, the rough tone killed me.
Y’all are just wusses you’re a apprentice just a glorified hand. Just suck it up do your job and get raises
@@Lurkingxx lmao people like you are a really big reason rhe trades can't find labor, it not about being a wuss it's about knowing you don't need to put up with being disrespected
@@jacobrael9872 just like an clueless FNG.... shows up knowing nothing, messing shit up and causing more work for the journeymen to repair, and can't follow simple directions if "the tone" isn't how mommy talks to him..... and you kids think you are a somehow entitled to the respect of Men.... quit your bitching and get something respectable accomplished and you'll actually earn some respect 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣 just because your mommy thinks you're talented don't make you shit on a jobsite of experienced men
I graduated trade school in '84 as a machinist. The year I graduated landscaping companies were paying more money to push a lawnmower than any machine shop job I could find. Not only was I expected to know my job, it was also expected that I walk in the door with thousands of dollars worth of my own precision tools. As each shop folded, I had to take a new job that paid less. I delt with that cr@p for a decade. Finally smartened up. Went back to school, got a business degree and sold all my tools.
Now I'm a buyer, sourcing machined parts from China. I make 4x the money I ever made as a machinist and ya, I get to waste several hours a day watching TH-cam videos.
I do tour domestic shops occasionally and I laugh when the foreman tells me he can't find any young machinists!
Sales is where the money is at.
I'm looking to get into Machinist trades because I love metal work and CNC machining and want to be a CNC programmer but all I hear is horror stories like this. I'm joining the Air force to learn the trade but I'm worried that when I get out, there going to to offer me like...$30 an hour. I just can't see this type of pay for the amount of skill and ONJ training to be sustainable for anyone who wants to get into Machining especially with all the old timers retiriing
@@dantheman1998 you won't have any problem finding a job (unless the economy completely tanks) but I don't think you'll see any big money like the plumbers and electricians are making. What's worse is that a new machinist is expected to show up on day 1 with several thousands of dollars worth of precision measuring tools.
I was a highly skilled machinist 42 years. I would not recommend it to a young person.
I'm 36 and have been a millwright since school. I calibrate, refurbish and install machine tools now ( just started a year ago) I find it insane when I go into these UNION shops and these 55-65 y.o. guys are only making 30-40$ an hour.
As an older millennial, all of my classmates in highschool were pushed to do math and science and computer sciences. So, not being told about trade work probably hasnt helped the industry.
If there were more people in the trades they would be complaining about even lower wages. Why work twice as hard for half the pay?
Getting into programming before 2013 was a way better choice than the trades. It's now over saturated and all the big paying positions are for people sitting on that 8 years + experience
As a 27 year old carpenter with very high functioning autism that most people do not pick up on unless I spend significant amount of time with them I really lucked out when I was able to go to a high school trade program that taught carpentry. It wasn't however when I was actually in high school but when I got sent over to a specialist autism program that teaches autistic people how to be more self-reliant. I owe that program everything and I owe my high school absolutely nothing
I don’t know about other states around the country, but in my city they removed all technical programs from schools. Wood shop, auto mechanics, welding, everything. Some are available at an offsite location, but you have to apply for (a year in advance) and be approved for the program, so not many kids make it in. Both my son & daughter were very surprised they used to have these classes available, and wanted to take auto mechanics, but there was no room in the program. They instead had to take a bunch of BS classes (in my opinion) that gave them zero life skills. I took auto mechanics in high school along with wood shop. I do all of my own home repairs (some major) and I can still change the brakes on my car. Invaluable.
@@SilverDragonEyess i laugh at you push button boys know nothing tool geometry besides what a brochure says.. or diffearances in material..or machine reapair..or manual machine mill..lathe..surface grinder
Summer 2023, can confirm, the trades are still hemorrhaging. No hope in sight, companies still refuse to pay workers real wages. Company I used to work for signed a contract with homebuilders to install equipment in thousands of new homes, while just the previous year they didn't even get all of their scheduled maintenances done due to lack of technicians. Several new trainees left just months after joining for better paying jobs, or to go back to school. I left after they wanted to add more responsibilities to me for an amazing, wait for it, $1 raise. Guaranteed long hours, terrible benefits, and ever worsening weather. Unless you have a good union in your area, which is rare in the states, the trades just aren't worth it for young adults.
Nothing is worth it in America. The medical system is all surgeries and pills( no cures)
The arts are poisonous and college is expensive. Engineering jobs are few and far between. Having a 150 IQ in America and having to stack boxes is miserable.
The taxes and inflation are never ending and always rising. America is a dead corpse of what European men built and left for us. Now the communist empire will begin and total slavery will ensue. I pray for America to end. God wipe this hell from the earth
I'm the youngest carpenter I know and I'm 28. I've been working on my own for 4 years now on the finish carpentry side. the carpenters I have met weren't career carpenters, they were "I should have went to college but I didn't so here I am..." which I purposely went into carpentry as a career choice. I have too much work, and basically charge whatever I want. I realize that having a passion for the trade has allowed me to accelerate my learning process more so then someone just trying to get beer money.
I specialize in cabinetry, wainscoting, coffered ceilings, accent walls, all the artsy stuff. I also build custom tear drop campers and "posh" Outdoor furniture which does well where I live, it has afforded me to basically tell people to fuck off and make my own hours... I still work 6-7 days a week because I just enjoy building shit.
Same story here
If I could work with u I would
I’m 29 and finding impossible to get a carpentry job in California because, presumably, I lack relevant experience. I’ve worked as a career bartender for 6 years and want to learn a trade. How can I help? Where do I have to move? Where’s the demand?
@@joshuaharris243 same
@@DenHenson from what I searched up you have to either go to trade school, find. A apprenticeship, or I think join as a laborer
Ex framer here with 25 + years and it is mind boggling people would want to pay you $20/hr to cut up a $30,000 pile of lumber 3 times a week and carry it on your shoulder and nail it all together(1st floor, 2nd floor, roof) with ZERO margin for error.
Not just carpenters, ALL manual labor skill trades. Especially something as Technical as such.
yeah but in a year or less, you can hire those new wall climbers that just keep coming ...
@@Nikletheman My friend even even here in south Florida we have a shortage of low voltage techs that actually want to work. Even if u pay them what they ask for. Especially since the government currently pays them more to stay home than what most small businesses can pay them. Society frowns too much upon people who do manual labor and gives too much praise to brown nosing office workers.
getting into a job that can bankrupt you with medical debt isn't what most people would consider a good idea, and the more careful you are, the more likely you are going to get fired for going too slow.
Carpenters are only useful to people who can afford homes anyway. Is it really a big deal for a rare industry to have a rare workforce?
@@noirto2 Hence why he said not to charge per hour and to just charge for the project. That's also how I prefer to work as well, I hate per hour pay.
As a veteran carpenter in Canada, you just summed up my conversation with every client I’ve ever had. We too are tradesppl and deserve as much respect/ money as any other trade. Our scope of knowledge is so much greater than other trades and yet we are the dogs of the industry. Our kids may see the rewards but at 56 I’m doubting Ill see it in my life. Great video !
Blame the smug urban elites for demonizing and dehumanizing trade jobs while at the same time worshipping higher education.
having worked on a few large jobs when I was an apprentice electrician. The job from my outside perspective was that it is a bit mundane and repetitive. Does that mean carpentry as a whole is? No. I even left a comment earlier that if I was exposed to the more craftsmen side of carpentry when I was younger. I might have considered taking up the craft. As out of all the trades, to me. Being a carpenter allows one to have much more fun with the skill set outside of the job for personal projects then plumbing, electrical, or of course elevator work.
I'll be real it's time for everyone to move on, let the robots fuck up so bad they need us
If you let that happen there will be no recovery. I can't find any teachers and I'm balling on a budget. I'm just graduating as an mechanical engineer for a paycheck, i dont even have a job yet. But but trades are my passion. The only option I have is TH-cam. Right now but years down the line I might be able to learn. Now imagine the people who don't have a degree making no money minimum wage, the same passion. When all the masters die from old age its just gone all the knowledge. Theirs only so much you can learn from videos and books. Not to mention the "common sense" that years of experience only gives.The robots take over and eventually fail decades down the line there is no repository, it's all been made redundant by robots.
The carpenters scope of knowledge? Lol what drywalling or setting concrete forms? U can teach a 20yr to do that in like a week
More like: "The brutally honest carpenter". Congrats on the yt success.
Thank you, Jason! 😅
Indeed... brutal and truthful!
Its called immigration
Welder here. I specifically got into Welding due to the shortage. It was a great investment because I have a pretty good paying job and only went to school for one semester. My current company is having a really hard time hiring and keeping welders on board. The reality is they're just going to have to pay us more if they want to keep people.
It's not a bad job but we certainly do work. Finding someone willing to actually bust ass when needed is a shortage in itself much less the welding part.
The drug test for weed is what's real killing the industry more than anything tech industries and other places don't test for weed abs you know what I know of your in the building trades. Meth and cocaine use is worse than weed because of that. And yeah I to took a welding trade school. And I don't mind working my ass of issue is if I'm not smoking weed or one pharmaceuticals for bipolar (their expensive around 1500$ a month) I get violent easily. So I'd rather be free and pour than risk my freedom from a job.
@@troygarza5720 yeah no I don't think weed should be illegal but you show up intoxicated to a shop running heavy tools and none wants you around. You're a liability
@@troygarza5720 Fact is doesn't matter what you think. It's what the guy writing the check says. If you don't like...start your own business and things your way. That is BUSINESS with alot of other people to consider.
GC (Non-union)I work with a plumber who's been looking for an experienced plumber for a year. No dice.
@@jonathangarzon2798 first you're assuming that what I'm doing on my free time is carrying over to work. Second the united States military gives drugs and stimulates to it's soldiers while deployed this includes downers and uppers just saying. Third you say that your against weed but let's be honest cocaine and meth use are rampant because of how fast they leave the system. Witch is probably more dangerous a guy been up for two days on meth because he can still pass that test or a dude who was high the night before went to sleep and got up sober?
Spot on. I lost my construction job the spring of 2009 due to, a lack of business ( the economy collapsed) . we did copper, slate, and tile roofing, mostly churches.. The owner let go of 3 out of 4 crews and kept the most skilled and family members. I was 51. Every thing you said is true. , as a nation we have been betrayed by the greed and shortsightedness of people with wealth and power. I enjoy your channel, sorry to hear about the knee at such a young age.
Thank you for writing in, Matt. It was devastating to see what happened in the aftermath of the market crash. My parents lived in Reno at the time, and a city with about 1,000 active builds became a ghost town overnight. All those frame-ups just rotting in the sun. Such a waste of everything. I appreciate you watching the channel. 🙏
@@TheHonestCarpenter I know a Carpenter, he teaches math for a living now. I work in a skilled trade and not many people are interested in trade work. It’s frowned upon and the white collar tech job is what is most sought after now. Your knowledge is what will make you income and a living. I agree, being in a cool job isn’t good enough. The pay and job protections are the only things saving trade work.
The Essential Craftsman said that work done below the neck isn't valued. He turns people to electrician or plumbing trades.
@@jum5238 - interesting advise. I assume the Essential Craftsman is implying mostly manual labor like paint, drywall, (maybe carpentry too?) is low salary, but licensed electricians and plumbers must graduate college (or it's trade equivalent) and additionally pass a test, and therefore getting paid lots of money? Carpentry can be many things, but I'm guessing people don't typically go to college or the equivalent for a carpentry career and there is no test or license to pass?
@@donaldlee6760 I think Ju M was referring to the TH-cam channel “The Essential Craftsman.”
It’s amazing that the scarcity of good carpenters isn’t able to drive up their perceived value. Should be making so much more.
Its all the hobbyists charging pennies on the hour
I am one of those that got out of construction in 2008, bankrupt & depressed. Went into facilities management where I use all the skills I learned along the way, don't have to deal with homeowners and make double the salary with benefits...I strongly agree that we need to bring the trades in parity standard of living wise & reintroduce them in shcool.
What does a facility manager do?
yes, what does a facility manager do?
@@tramenari manage facilities
A facility manager, manages a facility.
As a former building engineer, we used to sit in our monthly meetings and realize everyone in the room was close to retirement...no young people.
They may be not be as close to retirement as you think if retirement is defined as 'work until you die.'
What is happens, WHEN YOU EMBRACE reganomics, and destroys the unions, now everything usurped. Hahahahaha Le sigh
@@rogue-ish5713 Unions bad, Corporations good........sarc
No dude, corruption within unions, specifically trade unions, is a blight on the industry, and a BIG part of the problem. It's why every job site looks like the old boys club.
Can't get in unless unionized, can't get in the Union unless you're friends with someone already in. Maybe if you ruin your reputation and unionize your employer against their will they'll throw you a bone... Then when that job ends you're unhirable anywhere else. Or they'll take your Union dues for years and never provide a job.
Tl;dr. Unions are dirty, actual labor laws is the answer, not unionization.
@@TheMistyBlueLounge sounds like you’re either a guy that never went to his union meetings and then called to get a job from the hall when you got laid off. If they don’t know who you are they won’t put you to work first.
That being said , the trades in Chicago are and have been having signups for their apprenticeship programs.
And FYI. I came to Chicago in 1989, didn’t know anyone here. And I got into the Carpenters Union. It took me a year to get in.
Then I walked into a one day job and asked a Chief Engineer if he was looking for a carpenter in the Recession in 2008. And that’s how I got into the IUOE. Local 399
I’m not Irish either. And the Irish control both locals I have been a member of.
So your whole rant is false. I’m living proof
It all starts with a kid holding a flashlight, when you learn some manual labor not only are you a step closer to be self sufficient but also learn to appreciate someone else's labor, and pay what is worth. Too many confortable people that can't change a light bulb to save their life, will forever be thankful with my dad that put me on flashlight duty when I still had to hold it with both hands and mom that always encouraged and appreciated the little thing one can do around the house.
Ahhh the great and false blame the young people bullshit cx it's hilarious that so many blame young people for an education that they didn't get.
Im 29 and as a kid i used to get dragged by my gramps to almost every job he did during the summer. Hated it then, but looking at it now, everything i learned by helping him was worth it. Sadly though my joints are going south on me already.
I never really had a dad that taught me anything like that and I was pretty void of male figures throughout my childhood, as soon as I got old enough to do something I went to get a tade apprenticeship I got told my hands were too soft and I never wanted to do a trade ever since
Been building stuff my whole life but this year I started taking carpentry seriously and god damn that shit so fun
“They ain’t no more young guys”. That says it all.
I tell clients “ If you don’t already have a carpenter then you have a problem.”
The are living in mom's basement and somehow think its okay.
@@johnmartin1555 It is quite ok. Pay us more and stop gatekeeping old fart!
I am 74yrs old carpenter, I made 22.50 and hr. none union, 37.50 on prevailing jobs. My back and hips stared going out in my 50s. I had to work until 66 to get enough SSI to retire. My wife passed away had to sell my home. I can not stand for more than 10min. Pain is to great in my back. I did all types of const. From the ground up, houses schools, multiple story office building's, remodels ect.. the only NEW carpenter's I see are from Mexico, there the only ones who are willing to kill themselves for a living. I live in my Motor home alone now. O! I fell off the scaffolding in 2003 and almost died don't remember 2004, head injury. But I had to go back to work to live.
God bless Sir.
May your wife rest in peace. Bless her soul.
At this point, company's should hire you for your mind, not your body.
Stay strong.
I am from New Zealand and I trained as a carpenter. During the earthquake that hit Christchurch, the shortage of carpenters became very apparent, so I went back into building. Moreover my son came with me and became an apprentice carpenter. He is now qualified and I have retired. The reasons for there being a shortage is simply because carpenters are not appreciated and undervalued.
How can this be? I was told by countless idiots online that the trades paid and there weren't any real downsides to them at all
Amen. You hit every nail on the head. We are for sure a dying breed. Like cowboys.
I have learned in the last few years to charge a premium price for my services which help people show more respect for what we know and what we do. I do not know any young carpenters. Im 61 and have more work than i know what to do with. Its wife open for those willing to put in their dues.
Fortunately i have gotten through with very few hits. No bad knees or back. Couple of stitches here and there but thats all. Getting close to hanging up the belt!!
Cheers
Good to hear, Daniel! Keep charging what you’re worth, and stay safe 🙂
Do you think it would be a good career change for someone in their late 40's?
@@askjdog welding/plumbing. Forget about carpentry as a job ( fine as a hobby ). You are competing against undocumented workers and prison work release programs.
61 this year over in the UK and it's the same story here. I keep turning work away as I can't do five days a week manual labour. I have two sons and neither of those wanted to do what I do
@@askjdog No, not really. It takes many many years to learn what it takes to be a good carpenter. Hands on practical knowledge and a lot of book reading. On the other hand, it is one of the most rewarding careers there is!
I’m 21 and I’m carpenter and I consider this regularly but part of me thinks that by the time I’ll be seasoned and knowledgeable I’ll be able to charge whatever I want because everyone else will be worn out and retired.
exactly! I'm just getting into carpentry with that mindset. Also, being able to build my own house at some point, in a small, remote plot of land.
@@Yarblocosifilitico my one advice Is make sure you know your worth. Don’t let anyone take advantage of you because they will if you let them. And don’t be afraid to change companies for a couple dollars more!!
@@VinegaryDeer1 how's the field going? I'm thinking about going into Carpentry and joining an apprenticeship and the union after I graduate high school this year.
@@VinegaryDeer1 Man, sounds like you had a helluva time. I attended a Carpentry program that my school offered, and I loved loved loved the math and hands-on work we did there. They also said during a tour of the building that they also raised the salaries for Carpenters in hopes to get more in the field. Doing that plus joining the union - I feel like that would be great for me.
@@geminicam1156 fuck yeah if you like math you like working with your hands you’re in the right place. Don’t ever settle for less company’s ride on the backs of those doing the work the right company will give credit where it’s due. If you’re smart and can learn how to read prints that can give a good upper hand. Also one tip I never did go through with it but suggested by my neighbor when I bought an online osha 40. TAKE CLASSES THE BIG WIGS ARE TAKING AND YOU’LL MEET SOME PEOPLE WORTH KNOWING IN THE INDUSTRY!!!! Like all the certs foreman and supervisors use. Always add things to your marketability. And better yet find a company that will pay for it
In my area "welder wanted, at least 5 years experience, red seal, 18$/h" same job posting probably also has "please provide your own argon and o2 as well as materials needed for various client projects. Please provide a shop or garage also. And clients"
under paid
Lol 18 for a red seal, red seal means you can work anywhere in North America and no matter what trade that’s at least 40.
@@KkevrockK I'm exaggerating but not by much.
When I was a welder, a friend of a friend was looking for a part time welder for his company. A few evenings and Saturdays. I called him up and he offered me $15 an hour contractor pay. Are you well?????
laughable, that's $30/hour minimum.
My surname means "Large Mallet", my family on Dad's side has been a line of carpenters, contractors, cabinet makers, and other tradesmen going back to before good record were kept. And Im actually quite good at woodworking myself. If I could make a decent living and the working conditions were decent I'd quite cheerfully be a carpenter. Problem is our society's values are so screwed up its literally self-destructing.
As someone else said "There is something very wrong with building houses all day and not being able to afford one yourself."
25 yo male here. Just recently went into carpentry to do all sorts of stuff, siding, framing, roofing, trim work, fine woodworking on the side. I found the biggest problem is training and trust. Speed is only so much if you don’t know what to do yet. Training programs are kind of sorely missing and carpenter unions seem like old boys clubs for younger folks. The older guys complain about the young ones but won’t teach, be patient or give visions of projects and then complain about slowness or bad work. I love building stuff. I like knowing I have made a shelter or an aesthetically pleasing object and doing the rough and tumble is fun. But some older carpenters seem to have no patience for the nuances of rough carpentry versus a fine woodworker and things like that. I want to keep doing it but the pay and just lack of making the labor less difficult in whatever way possible is detrimental to the trade, I.e moving 20 bundles of shingles by hand 100 yards instead of using a tool or cart or something to reduce fatigue and wear but it’s not “manly” to do those things
Yeah they expect you to know stuff without any training. I was a laborer and I would tell off my company all the time about how they are dumb and incompetent. I hope they enjoyed the 3 thousand in damages I caused because they were to cheap to train me.
I am enthusiastic about farming because it is a vital part of existence, just like carpentry, but even the holistic and spiritual people in it can be slave drivers. Then again, there is no money/budget in pure farming. There are tons of volunteer opportunities too, but I fear there will be no difference in the expectations of work. The main way to survive in farming is internships which give food and housing to some extent. There still is not much of a logical way to survive the industrial era of farming using hand techniques, in terms of profit. It feels like everything needs the Internet to supplement it. I want to change the culture around farming to lose the "hard work" reputation while not relying on industrial machines. But my family really makes it impossible. I may be a genius through training and capable of developing further, but I feel like my parents are my enemies while I also feel hopelessly dependent.
The funny thing about what you said about something not being “manly” happens all the time on a work site, but those old hypocrites will also tell you to work smarter not harder. I don’t miss trade work at all.
@@awookiefromendor This is an issue with the labor market in general these days. Everyone expects to get a fully trained, fully compliant worker with no relevant experience so they can pay them less. Its unrealistic. But training costs time and money, so they throw you to the wolves instead. Not willing to pay for experience, and not willing to pay to train the inexperienced.
It was the opposite for me, always had the old men telling me - "take care of yer back you only have one" my reply - "yeah whatever old man", yeah those words come back to haunt me now that I'm older. Problem with young people is - they think they know everything - and I'm saying this for any generation, however in tougher jobs you have shop talk, otherwise, you can learn what the old men know but your going to take some shit to get it, its called tough love, and I guess the days before you could sit around all day in air conditioning in your underwear playing video games or on the internet, that tough love went a long way. Learn the trade and start your own business, if you walk into a job and just drone out you go nowhere, learning how much materials cost and how to price a job is where the money is, and believe me the trade industry has a lot of people that know what they're doing but can't price a job.
As a 74 year old “perfectionist “ carpenter ( ….still working in the field … ) I absolutely agree with you …. and I APPLAUD you….for every word and sentiment in your video !!!
I charge ALMOST what I think I’m actually worth , and my clients get great value for what I’m paid …. that’s why I’ve always had a “word-of-mouth “
waiting list . …very impressed with you and your channel …. kudos to your parents too … looks like they’ve done a great job .
If there is a waiting list, then you don't quite charge as much as you are worth.
Nothing a 3D printer can't do and if your taliking about being a perfectionist you can't get anymore perfect that a 3D printer!!
@@stevelundt6498 *yes you can.*
My friend has 40 year's experience in carpentry and cabinets he can do amazing things with scrap's. But people balk at paying him $15 hr. Yet they're not worried about the burger flipper's which takes little skill $15 hr.
@@rjay7019 I'm fine paying a burger flipper $15 a hour. If they're worth any salt they're certainly worth a wage that can provide a roof over their head. Besides, they're making the food I put in my mouth. I want them to be able to afford soap and taking off a day when sick. Not sure why you'd hold down a burger flipper because your friend can't negotiate rates with people probably too cheap to pay a burger flipper $15 a hour.
As a former young automechanic, it wasn’t worth it. Trying to get started, they don’t want to give you a fair shares work, it’s always the older dudes who get the lions share and I pick the scraps nobody else wants. The pay wasn’t good for the back breaking work I was doing in open air shops with no a/c. I ended up switching to personal training for less money, but am way happier mentally. It was hard to do but well worth it. The tradesmen jobs are behind the times and need to start treating their workers better
Current auto mechanic apprentice here. You described it. Big jobs go to the old guys why you’re left with nothing and shut pay “hey I want more money” “we’ll all the jobs you do are just little ones” “well you won’t give me a shot at the big ones” “well that’s risky you’re not experienced enough” “well I came here to get this experience” endless circle. Everyone wants something but no one wants to give. Myself included I don’t wanna waste my time not learning and working for nothing but bosses don’t wanna risk losing money.
@@jasonjrf This has been my experience as well. Anytime you need a job done that is even remotely difficult and/or not the standard cash grab job like tire changes, it's like they can't be bothered to fix it. Why actually do work and fix my leaking gas tank when they can spin off 5 bolts on a tire and slap some new ones on?
Why exactly should the new kid get the big jobs? You and others don't at all understand you need to gain experience if you want to take on more. You all want to be at the finish line and all without the effort or work to get there.
@@jurupa because they aren't building space shuttles, rebuilding an engine isn't rocket science. The work isn't that hard, just time consuming which is why the old fossils want it for the commission. Has nothing to do with experience.
@@jurupa because the point of an apprenticeship is to educate the younger generation in the trade so the trade exists in 20 years from now. If you fuck them over so badly they leave after a couple of months everyone loses. The consequence will be as in many other sectors that you have just a huge industrial complex that is about buying and throwing away with just a niche for artisanals who do the manual work for enthusiasts who can afford it.
I’ve had a similar path. I’ve been in carpentry since I was very young and I actually got my first manual labor job when I was eight. Because of this I started with degenerative disc and arthritis in my back when I was in my 20s. I eventually went off on my own and did that until I was in my mid 30s and then realized, I was either going to do something else that paid better or sacrifice my body and eventually not be able to work at all. the thing is I was working 10 hours a day 6-7 days a week and I went and took a job where I worked under 40 hours with benefits, and made better money as a Manager. now I’ve been promoted and I’m looking at another promotion in a year or so and make over 100 K a year with pension and benefits. These are things I couldn’t secure in my job before working for myself. I think a lot of people forget the ancillaries where you’re just looking at hourly salary, but how are these guys going to retire? They need to make that salary plus what they would need on top to subsidize their benefits. It’s been a problem for a long time and I won’t even do a side job now unless I’m getting paid well, so I don’t have to worry about too much side work. It takes years to learn a trade well and not just any dope can go in and become a talented, carpenter or tradesmen. In the end we are going to pay for how we’ve treated the trades. Pay your tradesmen!!
Your assessment is spot on. I started in trades as a teenager, but soon learned that I was paid twice as much in landscape and trucking. I still learned the trades from some of the best I found ( I worked part time for them) . To this day I use it for myself and some friends but you are correct why get paid so little and get old fast, I make more doing less...strange. Carpentry is really underrated until a good one is needed. Many ask me , "could you blah for me?" Answer, "You can't afford me, I make too much at my job." Sorry, money talks...
My dad's a carpenter, charges $90 an hour, and gets it. A large portion of his business is fixing what they guy before him did wrong.
Sometimes this is true, but most often what one "old timer" sees as being done wrong is due to not understanding or knowing the new fed codes.
When I was a mechanic then later a cable/satellite installer I had to fix other people's screw ups. I know how he feels.
@Michael Davidson tell me more, since I'm soon will heading to the welding field once I finish my college degree in few months.
Illegals aren't good carpenters
Geez I know all about that I spent years doing that correcting others mistakes. Someone that was unlicensed and unskilled.
Not just money but the respect and dignity of doing an honorable job.
Picked up a summer job out of high school doing concrete and framing while I figured out what I wanted to do, turned out to be a 12 year long summer... never wanted to be in that line of work so I didn't think to get my ticket or anything. At the end I worked for a pipe fitter who had very little regard for safety and only for $23hr, worked unpredictable hours, never saw the kiddos before I left home and often home after they were sleeping. Now I'm a stay at home dad, the kids are old enough and my wife got a job only a few blocks away making much more than what I was, we all eat breakfast together and she's home before supper.
I never wanted to stay in the trades but I don't regret the skills I've picked up.
this whole video can be summarized as "carpentry work doesn't pay nearly as much as it should."
I went to a formal trade school, got all the dumb certifications they want, came back to my area, and the 3 major construction companies or a few smaller companies in my area, applied to ALL of them, had reviews from the school, direct line to my trainer who only had good things to say, but most places "weren't looking to hire young"
or were offering 2 dollars more than a shift at McDonalds and 2 dollars less than a night shift at Walmart.
I have extensive background with a lot of fields IE customer service, food, security, and construction.
I got a job in insurance that pays TRIPLE the starting price as a carpenter in my area, now tell me, why would I subject myself to a job that doesn't pay enough to get rent in my area, will strain my body for years before I see a living wage, and I'm viewed as a nuisance for being young?
you boomers and gen x in the comments don't understand how much YOU fucked up this field of work, and how you made this mess yourself. I've got the knowledge I need to do the basic work on my houses and plan to only call for help from non local companies now if anything is over my head, its the lack of understanding and will to change and pay appropriate wages that have killed this field, Y'all got no one but yourself, your egos, and your bosses shit attitudes to blame for this dying trade.
Amazing. You blame others. Look in the mirror.
What do you do in insurance bro?
@@robertgregory8936 of course he blames others. They’re the reason there are not a lot of young people entering the trades! Why would I subject myself to shit work for shit pay under a shit boss when I can get an easier office gig, or get paid a lot more in a more specialized area?
haha you fuckin tell um man literally every construction job I've had the boss is a coke head every foreman's a drunk or pill junky piece of shit, the young bucks are numbers to them. then at the end of the day you sit and think would i ever spend an ounce of my free time with any of those pricks.,,. hell nope
Sounds like you did it wrong. Finish your apprenticeship and start your own company if you want to earn money. Being someone else's servant seems up your alley though.
Exactly! I just crawled off of a custom concrete form job (yes, we help the masons too). Similar to you I've been in the trades since I was 14. I've been very lucky with my body and had few accidents. But I'm tired and my area is poor (around $30/hr for highly skilled carpenters). There's no draw to the carpentry trade at all. It's just me and a bunch of old guys building and maintaining homes.
@huhhman *its a carpenters market.*
Reminds me of my dumb ex-employer that hasn't raise the price on his food in 20 years. Raise your prices. Sea Food pasta plate 26$ is still 26$ and the dude complains about not making more because less people come in. Raise your price. But he is ruled by fear.
@@Charles-mv7sv well, I'm an employee. So I guess I could ask for a raise. But back when I was a licensed to contractor I did raise my prices and priced myself out of the market. I found the top and it's not enough. Your friend might be ruled by fear; not sure though. He may know his market better than you do.
@@Makebuildmodify I think the problem lies with pricing the work or product, when you should be pricing the client. th-cam.com/video/RKXZ7t_RiOE/w-d-xo.html "Pricing Design Work & Creativity" I know it applies to physical products too, I've sold $450 Kirby Vacuums (probably $250 from the factory) for $2,800 and profited $1,500 after paying my dues, some customers payed $900 on credit card ( I'd make 50$), some financed 3k and I made $1,500. Same work, same product, different customers.
@@Charles-mv7sv Thanks for the link to the video. That's a great talk. I'll give it some thought.
In 2019 i started working as a electrical helper after taking a course to teach me the basics both my parents are college graduates. I started this job at a local small company there were 3 of us on job every day. My boss was unorganized constantly all over the place freaking out screaming and throwing tool at us. I pushed thru dealing with him for 4 months then i quit in the beginning of august and enrolled in college. Its companies like that, that push people away from the trades
very true, its horrible to work for a boss thats just stupid
Thats the thing. I want to go to the electrical trade but I wont be making much. Money is not every thing but low staffed and not guaranteed that you will get into the union has me seriously thinking of what to do. My dad tells me when he was in construction in the 80s he was 19 and he use to make $1600 (in todays money) a week 5 days a week and only 7 hours a day. Now a days your lucky to get any where near that especially in the trades. I really like doing this type of work. But for the pay...im second guessing it. This is going to effect the trades alot. I use to hear that trades people use to make alot of money. But after going deeper into it. Its not alot at all. My friend works in carpentry building houses only makes 15 an hour non union. But his dad is a foreman still only makes 18 an hour. Yes its non union but still. All this work seems like very little pay. Unless you own your own company and get more money that way. But still you have to pay your workers a good paycheck.
This sounds like my summer, did you work for a lying pr!ck too?
@@mentalphilanthropist35 if you consider hey lets start at 5am so we can get home for dinner a lie then yeah. Sorry bud we gotta stay till the job is done
@@Belloc_The_Hallow Every time my check was wrong he blamed his mommy!
In 1998 I remember a NPR segment interviewing carpenters in Omaha. In it they said their pay was stuck at 12-15.00/hour because of the increase in illegal aliens who had carpentry experience and were underbidding their pay rate. They said that soon they would leave the field if things continued.
I'm surprised NPR published that. That's what I was thinking as I was listening to this. All the paying low skill positions that should be done by a 20 year old are being done by 40 year old migrants. I see white collar people who are too cheap to pay proper wages all of the time. Basically class warfare and greed.
Thank God for our Jewish politicians who lobby for open borders and mass immigration.
We're quitting because people want to pay peanuts. I'm a wood worker now, building, resorting and repairing antiques and new valuable furniture.
Remember the housing crisis of '08? I was a carpenter and kept taking cuts in hourly wage just to be able to work, and it took 10 years to get back to the wage I was making in '08, but Sub sandwiches were no longer 5 dollars.
Funny how I see all these “we need younger skilled labor” but every time I apply for apprenticeships nobody wants to call back or give me the time of day even with a military background, and willing to take the bottom of the barrel pay because honestly all I want to do is learn I could care less about the money but the methhead hitting their pipe in the truck before the Union interview gets the spot over me because they “have experience” moving some carpet around.
I got in the union framing with 0 experience and only cuz I knew someone who got me in, they even told me to my face that I'm only hiring you cuz so and so said so. What I recommend for you is lie about your experience and then work hard for 3 months so they can't get rid of you😂
Unions are a joke anymore
Military background has nothing to do with carpentry
@@dominickjustave3558 Union pipe welder here, apprenticeship with the union, always had work, lots of overtime, busy as h*ll, great retirement, the scabs killed their own trade by working for less than the other guy to keep their job, they drove down their own pay.
@@domoariscotto7486 Maybe nothing or maybe discipline, leadership and responsibility.
Boy …. Are you correct! I’ve been in home inspection 28 years and I say this every day. Great video
Watching this video felt like hearing myself talking about the carpentry trade. The only thing I’d add is with the diverse responsibilities comes an absurd need for many high-priced tools that see a lot of wear and tear.
Relatively lower wages, many responsibilities, tired body, and high expenses - not a recipe for high workforce participation.
$150k a year without a crippling college debt and earning can begin immediately rather than 4+ years wasted staying in school. Lower wages?
Relatively low compared to plumbers and electricians. I should have been more clear. This wasn’t intended to be a comparison between trades and college, it was meant to compare carpentry with other trades.
@@TheBelrick the administrative corruption of the academy, the white collars,
and the wages for tradesmen, the blue collars,
are apples and oranges.
A disfigured face on campus is far more expensive than in front of wood,
similarily to having a booming voice is more attractive in the field,
but having all of the muscles attrophied is barely a bother for the highest of physicists.
Go fix your humanities, and tradesmen will attend to the issues in their own field.
You are right at 66yrs old I usually charge $40 - $50 hr and I often have folks at the end of the day who just don’t feel that like it’s worth that. Everything I do is guaranteed both labor and material. I often don’t charge for picking up material except on big jobs and give my knowledge to doing exactly what they wanted often when they don’t even know themselves. Thanks for the good words and advocacy for the guys who do the work.
Thank you for writing in with your experience, Scott!
Scott - Right there with you, I do mostly specialized commercial work, but people don't seam to relize what we are worth, and when they need service on their vehicles, they don't bat a eye on paying $125+ an hour for labor.
Most of the people that hire you don't think that cause they make $50 an hour in a office job, with bennies full time all year, with free coffee in the office, think your in and out in a week or two, they should pay that kind of money.
When were done with our work, they can sit back and see something and enjoy it for years to come.
Same numbers here. My min is 45$. Carpenter, 59 years old.
@@bobwild9995 Not that many people make $50 per hour at an office job. That's 104k per year. Not that a carpenter's time isn't worth that (and more), and there is more risk involved so its not a 1:1 comparison; but its understandable that most people find that to be a lot of money. Heck, less than 20% of individuals in the US make that much alone, and only 35% of entire households do. Even the average carpenter makes only half that according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
here in the north east(massachusetts) unskilled laborers are being billed out at 75-90 an hour with skilled laborers at 125 and a liscensed carpentor or GC billed at 150-200. these are the rates companies are charging not what guys are being paid, right now a guy with hand tools and a drivers liscense with minimal skill sets is getting 20-25 while a skilled framer\carpenter is pretty much capped out at 35 maybe 40 if you are buddies with the owner. Its small wonder anyone with a brain is bailing on these trades lol
I worked at The Home Depot for close to 2 years before I went to graduate school. Most of the contractors we dealt with were 50+. It was rare to see youngster coming in to do an install for a customer. Since the coronavirus the prices for wood have doubled, and in some cases tripled depending on the type of wood. There is a huge demand for wood so I would hope that carpentry pay here in Cali would go up. After working there though I have immense respect for tradespeople. Go into a Home Depot and look at the amount of tools and pieces each trade requires. Not only that but the work is back breaking and takes years to get good at. These people literally build America; we should pay them at least double what anyone working in retail like myself earned.
Double retail pay? That would not do. This is the problem.
Few people understand that a good journeyman carpenter with tools and truck (to haul your materials) is worth at least $75/ hour bottom rate. That’s 5 times retail wage.
Yes it's a hard life at 68 I can barely walk, started when I was 18
@@Lofi.z34 California has the 5th largest economy on the planet, the economy isn't doing bad, in fact California keeps the Red South out of bankruptcy.
@@Jrock420blam shhh dont say that "hurr duh democrats bad" is all they're capable of thinking.
@@robertgregory8936 retail is worth $25 an hour, they are also massively underpaid. such is the problem of capitalism
Here in Norway it doesn't seem to be much of an issue considering here you get paid, once with a larger sum of money for the entire project, and then you get hourly on top of that. The fact that carpentry is one of the most popular of the construction trades to choose in school also shows that it feels like a safe choice to younger people, which is important. The pay for someone who's a newly educated carpenter is generally about $43 069, or 460 000 norwegian kroner a year before tax.
my grandfather spent his entire life working trades, mostly as a mechanic but he could do almost anything. He told me all the time to do anything but a trade, to find a job that doesn't destroy my body. So it's not just about the pay. If others experienced what I experienced, there was also an entire generation told to do something better than trade your health and body for a paycheck.
Now we're swinging back. Luckily, I get to work my passion that my college degree allowed, but if I was stuck in some office I'd want to kill myself. Everyone I know my age working as a tradesman is happy, flush with money (because they can do their own work on their home instead of paying people), and feel fulfilled.
Most the people I know working in office settings do nothing but bitch about it on Facebook all day.
My father is a carpenter so he taught me to do many things. We just screened in my front porch, something that would have cost me 1,200 dollars instead of 500 dollars in materials. That is an insane money savings (we built a sunroom for my old house that was appraised at 25,000 and it cost me 8,000 to build since we did it ourselves).
My Dad is the one for me. He always said "Whatever you do, don't end up in construction." He'd even get angry at his bosses and other people if they ever even suggested it.
I am reading here as a 35 year old working in IT sitting by my dad who is a 60 year old trader laying on the hospital bed waiting for bypass surgery. He is a strong man, eats home food that my mom cooks but hard labor and age eventually caught up to him...
That why I left the industry. More pain, less gain. No steady income. You hit the nail on the head.
They used to have on the job training. Most of the older carpenters and other manual workers were hired in the 70s,80s and 90s with zero experience and no high school diploma. They were trained and paid a livable wage (in those days) around $13 per hour.
Now they want at least 3 years of experience and a starting pay of $15 per hour. Some even require a bachelor's degree in engineering.
Even engineering firms dont want to hire new engineers with little experience. Paying new engineers 60-70k a year with the expectation of work alot of over time.
@@goshawk4340 you will make half of that starting out in construction as a apprentice
True
Heck, McDonalds is paying $15 per hr.
Minimum wage laws does this
Yep I agree, as well as all the above in the UK there is a constant influx of cheap foreign labour from abroad keeping a constant downward pressure on wages, resulting in a continual boom or bust cycle where you're constantly in demand one week & then nothing for weeks especially in winter, it's always been this way.
We're still here, we just can't afford to work for such crappy wages, we need to live too, the workforce has been diluted by imports and the wages dropped, I went from making $38/hr to $15/hr over 10 years, I should make more with more experience yet I make less then when I started
I love the morons says "You need to develop more skills to add value to the company" like shut the fuck up, the company wants to pay you jack shit even if you are valuable
@@ninjablack4347 That is how the company makes more profit. Stronger unions might be a solution for more bargaining power
Amen
I’m a carpenter General contractor & I refuse to charge less than $100 per hour but homeowners are constantly refusing to pay my wages. I understand how tough my job is & how valuable my knowledge is. I’m just waiting for people to eventually figure this out. It’s coming. The time is near
That's why all the Mexican people are here working (Please look at my second paragraph). I have no ill will towards any of them and I know they're trying to make a living for their family here and in Mexico. People have got to do what they got to do, when our government does what they do with drug enforcement.
Now here's the crux of the matter. Due to the fact we have all the Mexicans here doing construction, It Has Cut The Knees Out From Under The Labor Force With Hourly Wages. As everybody knows labor is an hourly pay job. It's not a salary job and give it a few more years, Mexicans will be doing all the air conditioning work next. Mark my damn words.
@Jake Stockton I'm not sure what you mean by The Quality Isn't The Same. If they have guidance or had guidance, the quality should be pretty close to the same (maybe not 100% as good but I believe it would work just about as good). Now in the bigger picture all that is besides the point.
Due to the way our government is and big business is, the rate of inflation has way surpassed the amount of hourly wage the normal everyday person earns. Think Walmart employees, gas station employees, hotel employees, grocery store employees, doctor's office employees (not the doctor), and just about everybody you can think of. Please think about it, $7.25 or even $10.00 an hour isn't a living wage and it would never allow somebody to pay anybody $100 an hour to do anything. If 75% of the country can't afford a $500 expenditure without going deeper into debt, it is not possible.
Now let's put the $100 an hour in perspective for my personal life. I'm paralyzed from a construction accident and the fact Workers' Compensation is as screwed up as it is, I have not had a pay raise in 22 years. So what I could have afforded 22 or even 20 years ago, I couldn't dream of doing it today. I make $21k a year, my house payment is $800 a month ($9,600 a year), then after food and utilities it would never give me that ability or 90% of the people mentioned above.
Hopefully that gets people to expand or broaden their thinking.
p.s. I don't know any Mexicans and I don't have any in my family. In some ways I wish I did but I don't speak Spanish and that's a detriment to myself.
Daniel, what state do you live in? I have the same title as you with a handyman back ground and do many trades myself. I'm at $60 per hour, I do not advertise, I'm in southern CA, been in business for 18 years, no employees. People don't seem to bat an eye at my price but I've been thinking it's time to up the hourly price this year. The local plumbers and electricians are easily at $75 or up in the area.
Who can AFFORD to pay $100 an hour?
@@swanp1767 people that want it done right.
I've been saying this exact same thing for years. A lead carpenter in my area is lucky to get 25$ an HR. I was a lead carpenter for a company making 19$ an HR. Now I'm 49, disabled, broke and have nothing. Why would I tell a young person to get into this trade?
Sadly true, Robert. 😕 The carpenter carries a lot of burdens.
It’s extra sad when someone can work in a restaurant and make $30-$40hr waiting tables while a carpenter makes half that.
Same goes for HVAC. 30 years in the trade, making 25 dollars an hour, bad back, bad knees, no feeling in my hands, bad feet, cant hear very well. plan to make one more year and retire. I discourage any young person from going into a trade unless their just too stupid to do anything else.
I am 70 now;
Not disabled but at this age am broke and have nothing;
Fortune has it that I am now sitting in the office of one of the general contractor that I worked for;
I had also buddied up with one in the office @ David Allen
Dunno what else to say but yes;
Any trade you recommend? im 24, and looking for a career to decide on.
Ex-framer here. 100% agree. Stopped doing it and joined the Army (retired now), which was less dangerous and better paid. Figure that one out....
I’m a young carpenter and I’m so excited for this to be a problem
Opportunity my young friend. Knowledge and experience will never be taken away. Your skills are always in demand. Stay safe. 👍
@@bigmikeh5827 you will never starve.
You have an edge many of us didn't, you know your value, get your money!
Be professional in every way - dress sharp, clean rig, courteous and polite AND CHARGE FOR IT! :)
I am also a young carpenter I am 24. I agree. Keep the work coming. I'll go to work everyday and make my money to feed my family.
I had enough of being a carpenter when I looked back at my accounts over 10 years and discovered my prices hadn’t gone up at all! Who works for 10 years and doesn’t have a pay rise? I live in the uk so this is a global problem.
yes we got paid less 5 years later for building the same house.
Unfortunately it’s the same here in Aus. The new young blokes coming through seem to be pretty useless so I imagine it will only get worse before it improves
Same in the usa. I'm charging similar prices as 20 years ago. Now, though, I'm faster and more efficient.
@@thenewnormal30 most of the young blokes are useless here in america too. 30 years ago, we were expected to practically kill ourselves as newbies on the job. Today, an 18 year old thinks he can do anything after watching a few TH-cam videos
@John M. I worked with a few great women in the trades...but, they didn't last long. How many women do we see digging ditches for a living? None. They work in an air conditioned building with space heaters blowing on their legs....lol
As a 22yr old who has been taught carpentry very young. I can tell you that i have only ever met a very few amount of people my age. I've always been the youngest in any company I've worked for. I hated it at first, but i thank my father now for teaching me how to survive.
Nice profile , I go to a trade school for welding but man I wish knew more of carpentry.
You have a father with wisdom! You will prosper.
Ah, my father was a great carpenter and a talented teacher. I learned a lot from him but I preferred to run with my friends and missed out on a lot. I've used what he and guys he used to work with taught me, but I sure could have learned much, much more.
Your not alone I'm pushing 23 years old and I have learned to well, learn everyting to do with crafts. Stuff like carpentry, welding, masonry, plumbing, and even cutting edge computer stuff like CNC and 3D CAD designing will never become useless skills and never go out of style. Companies love to know when you spread out your knowledge to different styles of building, fixing and creating things. Glad to see there's more of us young guys out there doing this stuff.