I'm going to mention something here because a version of the exact same comment keeps coming up and I want to set the record straight. I have had probably 30 comments saying something to the effect of "9mm is better than .45 ACP, it's 17+1 of 9mm VS 7+1 of .45 ACP so 9mm wins because of capacity".
That is some serious cherry picking right there. I could also argue that a S&W TRR8 revolver loaded with 8 rounds of .38 Special+P+ is better than a Diamondback DB9 9mm loaded with 6 rounds of 9mm standard pressure ammo. While that TRR8 revolver is certainly better than a Diamondback DB9, that would be as dumb of an example as comparing the Glock 17 9mm to a 1911 .45 ACP. Pick fair comparisons if you want to debate this, such as if you compare basically the same size pistol to the Glock 17 (albeit slightly larger frame thickness) - the Glock 21 - both have about 4.5" barrels and the Glock 17 9mm is 17+1 capacity while the Glock 21 .45 ACP is 13+1 capacity. Also a 1911 in 9mm is 10+1 capacity VS a 1911 in .45 ACP of 8+1. The average shots fired in self defense for non LEO's is 3. I said that right - THREE. AGAIN - The number of shots fired by a civilian in self defense is 1-5 shots, and there's very few instances of defensive encounters going beyond that. My point is that having a capacity of pretty much every 9mm pistol as well as every .45 ACP pistol, is enough. Having 18 rounds instead of 14 rounds is at the bottom of the list of things I need in a defensive encounter, and my logic is to have the best 5 rounds that I can because generally it's within these 5 rounds that everything is going to happen. Do you want ammo that is ineffective or do you want ammo that is very effective? This question goes beyond 9mm VS .45 ACP, it's a general question and something that I feel is more important than the outlier incidents of getting into a gunfight with an entire gang of people and needing 17+1 rounds. Personally I feel like if you put yourself into a situation like that, you have probably failed at all other aspects of self defense training. I will say this to you kids with this mindset (knowing that I do have a lot of LEO subscribers - so not to you guys) YOU ARE NOT A COP, stop obsessing with capacity above all else. My point of this video irregardless to 9mm VS .45 ACP, is that you should think about the effectiveness of your ammo choice/caliber choice more than capacity. I have done a lot of ballistic tests, and a lot of research and no - pistols are not all the same in being all ineffective, there are differences. And yes, pistols can stop threats with body shots, and yes - caliber and or ammo selection matters a lot.
From one gun channel to another, you have some good points. Though capacity is always an argument point. 9mm bullet technology has just gotten so good, that it can effectively stop most threats that people would come across, just like 45 would. Though with the 9mm, you have that added capacity in the event you find yourself in a situation where you need more ammo. Prepare for worst case scenario, not most likely scenario. That said, im a 1911 guy. 185gr +p is just a monster of a round.
Bro I feel like someone should tell you, out of concern, that trolls in internet comment sections are not any reason to put this much effort into a comments section or defense of your worldview. I'm a fan of the Yankee Marshal and he says things I WILDLY disagree with and has said things about certain other prominent people I disagree with, but I 1. Never complained about him or his worldview nor did I jump to the defense of people he seems to hold both due and undue grievance with. 2. Whenever Vintage Warfare, who I am also a fan of, wiped his ass with the Yank, I also didn't get all up in his comments section. I know I'm saying I'm not being a troll and that doesn't help you out, but basically what I'm saying is don't pay attention after a certain point. Draw a line with the complainers and after a point (should IMHO be a very short period of time) stop bothering with them. Tbh bothering with comments at all in most people's cases probably isn't even worth it.
That's the argument I've had as .40 guy forever lol You could have a 60 round drum on your 9mm, does you no good if BG has a more powerful caliber, you'll never make it that far to utilize it. lol .45+p, .40 and 10mm are all my 3 carries. Dont own a single 9mm, never will, I'll pass.
@@joehosier6187 And that's exactly what I do. I have a feeling that you think I have 100 comments and respond to them all. I respond to maybe 10 trolls per video out of hundreds of trolls and ignore most. I hope that puts this into perspective.
I tried so hard to make this video right, lots of harsh shadows and lighting, some camera shake and of course the ammo I bought that was listed as Nosler bullets with both but turned out to be an XTP with the .45 ACP. I just went ahead and filmed this anyways with possibly skewed results because I had to. I wish people would understand that the budget is super tight and once my monthly supplies are purchased, that's it for the month. It's also why I get upset when people are like "just buy a new Garmin chronograph for $600". I cannot buy a new chronograph or random guns on demand, I have just enough to keep putting out the two videos I put out every week.
Your stuff is always done well, sir. We appreciate the conscientious effort keeping us informed so that we can make sound decisions when purchasing food for our red hawks, pythons, horses, bulldogs or other pets.
I like your videos. Keep up the good work. I don't have but two channels I watch on ballistics. You are one of them. You seem real and I like that. I appreciate your input!
That is faulty logic. How badly you want or don't want any particular caliber, how much you don't want to be shot, has nothing to do with that caliber's strength or weakness, advantages/disadvantages. Every caliber is what it is.
However, certain studies found the 9mm more "lethal" due to its higher probability of complete passthough which induces pneumothorax more rapidly. The greater cross section of the 45 causes a perceptive "harder" hit, especially on bone, which might stop the aggressor faster than ultimate death. I consider that fewer shots taken to stop the aggression is more of a public relations aspect than objective performance, but fewer shots to stop each agressor means more shots for additional aggressors. What one can comfortably carry and shoot accurately should be the measure. Some can carry and deploy large, powerful handguns easily and others cannot, some may only be able to manage a smaller, less powerful option. Either beats begging or relying on the "good guys" to show up. Being one's own good guy is the best practice, and PRACTICE one must.
Thanks for weighing in on this subject. I agree with you 100%. The switch to the 9mm in law enforcement has been more to do with the cost and, unfortunately, the inability of officers' recoil management, than performance of the caliber.
Right, so by that logic we should use canons because they're more effective at stopping a threat than the .45 will ever be. Because "recoil" doesn't matter right? You and many others are too high and mightily attached to the concept of "stopping power" that you'd rather have access to more "stopping power" even if that means you miss the target, rather than having more opportunities to hit the target and make impactful shots with a mildly less (powerful) cartridge. It's just silly.
thanks for this Sam.......well done.......So many 45ACP critics are unaware that the 45 round was actually designed (planned) to dump all it's energy INSIDE the target. Do you think it wasn't possible to engineer more SPEED out of the casing / powder ? Speed was the enemy here - the 45 was never intended to over penetrate but rather to maximize the hydrostatic shock in the target itself.......That's what made old BALL ammunition so deadly as well........
Not exactly. We can see this in the MK23 trial. The long and short is while 45 is loaded to be low pressure, when you up the speed you still end up dumping most if not all the energy in the target. And this was being done with both 230gr +p and 185gr +p+ hollow points. It’s just how the round ends up working out in reality
I am surprised at how emotional some people have become over this video. I own more 9mm pistols than any other caliber, and they have their uses. But for some reason, many people have freaked out in their comments as if I said that the 9mm is worthless and no one should have one. The point of this video was to show that while the 9mm is fine, people should stop saying that it's as effective as the .45 ACP. I have even heard people tell me on my channel that the 9mm is just as powerful as the .357 Magnum. I am here to simply say that the 9mm is fine but the .45 ACP is a tad better. The main point of my video is to shut up people who keep repeating misinformation that the .45 ACP is somehow no more effective than the 9mm. When I use the term "9mm fanboy", this is not directed at normal people such as myself who use 9mm pistols. A person who uses 9mm (like myself who has one for home defense) and knows it's limitations is not a "9mm fanboy". A 9mm fanboy is one who can only shoot 9mm well because other cartridges hurt their weak wrists, and rather than accept that what they have is fine - they suggest it's the best or most powerful option out there to justify their own limitations.
@@GunSam well said brother. I completely agree with you and I admittedly only own 9mm pistols. That's just because I shoot them well and I only have to stock up on one caliber of pistol ammo. With the prices of literally everything now, it's hard to own and shoot multiple calibers like we used to. But thank you for what you do, it's greatly appreciated!
I had to take down one of my comments and repost it because a fanboy started crying. He could have made his own comment but mine really hurt his feelings, so he tried to hurt my feelings.😭🤣
Saying 9mm is "as effective" as 45acp doesn't mean they're saying it's "as powerful". If folks want to carry a hand-cannon that's their prerogative, the point MOST people are making is that for carry/home-defense purposes it will make no difference whether a perp is hit with a couple 9mm HSTs vs 45acp. That's all
In my 37 year career in a major Sheriffs Office we used a wide array of issue handguns. In pistols we issued the Beretta 92FS. SOME bad guys trying to kill our deputies were hit multiple times before the fight ended Now we had excellent firearms training and trained monthy as a units with 100 rounds each month per deputy along with annual qualification and other training. So it was not a matter of training and skill. ( Dont qualify, placed in an unarmed position given retraining, and had to pass 3 quals in a row as I recall) We went to the .45 ACP GLOCK 21 and those with small hands could be issued a GLOCK .40.SINCE THAT TRANSITION to the .45 we won every gunfight with far less rounds fired.
Thanks for your input, and it matches a lot of what I have studied. Much of this data is all about averages and 9mm does poorly with averages. There's a lot of people who like to take the outlier information to justify their caliber/cartridge choice, like "there was this one guy who took 6 rounds of .357 Magnum and kept coming" or "one guy went down with one shot of .22 LR". From all I have studied, .357 Mag was king, the .45 ACP and .40 S&W were almost as good, and the 9mm did pretty poorly and thus needed major overhaul of bullet design and power levels, which made it kind of close to .40 S&W and .45 ACP, but still not as effective.
@@GunSam I find it silly that bullet technology was only applicable to the 9mm and not ALL defense cartridges. You can be assured it did not just apply to the 9mm but all calibers that are used for defensive applications
That was a South Carolina state highway patrol officer and at the time yes he was carrying a 357mag but the load they were issued at the time was 38 special I remember the story very well have read many articles about it over years years @@GunSam
My favorite goofy point is that the 9mm ballistics have gotten so much better that it’s basically the same as 45 acp. As if the technology is reserved for 9mm.
It is reserved for 9mm because .45 is forced to use shitty pressures. You want to know what “improved” .45 is? Not .45 ACP. It’s called .45 super and requires it’s own gun.
You can say FMJ vs FMJ ball.......one is sufficient as is using standard target ammunition for self defense while the other isn't even on the map. FACTS!
@@linkl_6641 Nah, that's like saying 6.5 CM is a replacement for .300 Win Mag. It's not even remotely close no matter how many smartphones and spaceships you have!
That recoil reduction system is incredible. My MK23 shoots about as softly as my Glock 17 Gen3; I was in love with it enough that I went out and picked up a USP9 and USP9c.
@BERSERKERNA39 I'll add... that if I could only have one HK chambered in 45 acp, it would be the HK45. I like my USP, two less rounds doesn't bother me, with added 1913 rail and way better ergonomics on the HK45. I'll never get rid of my USP, but it's more of a collectible. The HK45 is more of the do it all gun... carry... nightstand gun.
The point of this video was to simply push back at the stupid notion that the .45 ACP is a terrible cartridge with less capabilities than the 9mm. People have been commenting on my channel for years that the 9mm is "just as powerful as the .357 Magnum" or "The government said 9mm was the best most powerful cartridge that exists". All I was doing here was stating legitimate information and facts, yet I keep being accused of being obsessed with the .45 ACP because I am obsessed with "two world wars" and all this nonsense, lots of repeated rhetoric that are simply gaslighting terms used by young people as an attempt to justify their choice of caliber. No one needs to justify anything, I was just giving information here. Also, I do not carry or use the .45 ACP or 9mm as my main defensive calibers because there are better options than these two. From time to time I will carry a 9mm though. I am informed on facts and limitations of the caliber so ammo selection is very much key when I do that. And why am I giving all this information? Because I have been doing handgun ballistic tests for about 15 years and have seen a lot of consistency and tendencies for both cartridges, so I thought I would share that information. I also have been studying the subject of 9mm VS .45 ACP for just as long. I expected a little pushback from the "9mm fanboy" crowd, but not all these complete psychological meltdowns I have been dealing with. It's weird and concerning. It's also quite annoying and pointless in an adult conversation. Stop it.
🎉SIR, I thank you for taking the time to show people what is what in the physical, and also putting everything on the table as it “IS”. THERE IS SUCH THING AS RIGHT, AND WRONG. YOU ARE 100% CORRECT! I dont even make the argument that 9 is just as good as 357😮how sttupid can one be? Velosity is waaay more in 357, and weight… thats insane, one would think this. My fav is a 10 mil.. 165 grains going upwards of 1500 fps, is my happy medium. Ive settled for a beretta96 , can take all the pressure of plus p, not too short @4.9 inches. .. buffalo bore .40 s&w offers a 155gr bullet going 1300fps.. uh what 9 can do it? 357 mag has a 147 gr going 1250fps….. catch my drift? In 45, the 185gr goes 1300 fps😂 yea… even my beloved 40 , cant match that, actually due to size, weight and velosity, thats up there with 10 mil… so guys, please listen to this guy.. hes a pro, jump on his bandwagon😂🎉
@@KerrariKors I always look at it that for every advantage of one caliber over the other, there's usually a drawback to that advantage. Like if a crackhead was charging me with a knife, would I rather have a .44 Magnum than a 9mm? You bet, but the recoil to get good with a .44 Magnum makes it a painful process. Would I rather shoot a charging bear with a 10mm 220 gr hard cast VS a 9mm 147 gr hard cast? Absolutely, however there's next to a 0 percent chance that 9mm will malfunction if I shoot it one handed while that 10mm has maybe a 25% chance of malfunctioning. Caliber debate also comes down to power levels and handgun size too. Like in a full size handgun, a .45 ACP is better than a 9mm but in a subcompact, a 9mm will run more reliably so in that case a 9mm is better. Or on the flip size, maybe a 9mm is better in a subcompact than a .357 Magnum snub nose due to the .357 Magnum's recoil, but if you go even smaller to a true pocket 9mm like a Diamondback DB9 VS an alloy .357 Magnum, the .357 Magnum is better because now you are at the point of such low handgun mass that the 9mm can jam, while the .357 Mag snub won't. Reliability with pain is better than unreliability that has better control. There's so many more things that can go into this conversation, and I like that. It's so much more fun than dealing with angry 20 somethings that a all "durr durr, 9mm better" and have some John Wick scenario playing out in their head as if they are that good and no possible drawbacks to their choice can happen.
@@timguenthner6434 It's slightly complicated but generally a .327 Federal Magnum revolver and a 5" M&P in .40 S&W. That being said I do also use a 5" M&P 9mm as *one of* my house defense guns. I normally would say no to 9mm, but I use 115 gr +P+ ammo and it's a 5" barrel so it gets about 500 ft lbs of energy. I would feel under-gunned with some of my other 9mm pistols that I test ammo with. I don't use my .45 ACP as a defensive gun but that's mostly due to it being a Glock and I feel way more comfortable with my M&P's because they have been more reliable and have better ergonomics. If I had an M&P in .45 ACP I would for sure either carry it or use for home defense. At the end of the day the real truth is all calibers are pretty good if you select the right ammo. It's just that some calibers like the .45 ACP are just a tad more forgiving and will work well with or without HP expansion.
@GunSam I also think it's what the shooter shoots best with. I have shot 45 I don't like it. I don't shoot as well with it. I'm not sure that training would change that. I own a 40 s&w and loved it until I shot 9mm. Im enjoyed your video. Anyone who says 9mm is anything close to a .357 mag is not in their right mind.
Underwood Max Expansion/Norma MHP 9MM out of a 5"+ barrel tend to expand to 0.75"+, more powerful .380-diameter rounds (.357 SIG) expand to 0.9"+, more than .45 ACP.
@@wizkaqueefa9003 Ignoring the fact that Norma MHP is awful ammo, *if* you get that MHP to expand, you do realize MHPs are also made for .45, yes? That same logic carries over to HSTs, Hornady Critical Defense/Duty, etc. The same rule applies to any hollowpoint. If you reach or exceed target velocity, you get proper expansion. Expansion from a .45 will be bigger than 9. I pick 9mm simply for capacity, personally. I like the security of more shots on tap, and many people have been put in the dirt with it. Same with .45. They are both adequate. But let's not pretend that, ammo to ammo, 9 will ever expand bigger than .45. It's simple math. Bigger diameter=bigger hole.
@@CrashRacknShootThe .45 ACP Norma MHP doesn't expand to the degree the 9MM MHP expands, which is pathetic given a 0.1" advantage in bullet diameter to begin with. If you want an actual "good" expanding .45 ACP JHP, compare MHP to something like Federal Punch 230 grain, which expands to about 0.8"-0.9" & still penetrates past 12".
@@CrashRacknShootPersonally, I pick 15+ 1 rounds of .357 SIG or .40 S&W with a 22-round magazine as a spare sitting in the car. Better terminal effect than 17+1 9MM rds.
My shooting buddy and I both carried 9mm 1911s for quite a while, but we shoot steel hangers a lot and the saw that the .45 hit them noticeably harder. Much more swinging. We both carry .45 1911s now. The 9mm is a fine cartrige and I'll never knock it, but the .45 is my EDC.
Would you rather get punched in the shoulder by a 115 lb. Lightweight boxer or by Mike Tyson? You can’t ignore physics. Also, 9mm is not the only ammo that has gotten better technologically, as someone said earlier. You’re spot on, Sam. Thanks for all your research.
I was a firearms and tactics instructor for nypd and know instructors from a few different departments and I can tell you 9mm is used because it’s a light recoil and easy controllability it is easier to get non shooters to be able to pass a basic qualification. 40cal, 45acp, 357 sig and 10mm are all better rounds for people stopping. Instead of training to a standard they go with an easy round to shoot
I recall in my youth NYPD would signs contracts for ammunition in two million round lots from multiple manufacturers each year. I still have some .38 Special duty ammo packaged in 18 round boxes that had been issued to the officers long ago. I suppose given current prices they have saved enough money on ammunition that rearming paid for itself many times over by now, among the other reasons you pointed out.
I just turned the video on and have not watched it yet, but I can say for a fact that 45 acp is much better than the 9mm. The proof is in the pudding. Now, I will watch the video. Carry on my friend.
This video has gotten a lot more views and comments than normal, thank you. But that being said, I have read a lot of weird comments from what I assume are non-subscribers, and most of them are very emotionally based. All this video was about is that the .45 ACP is a little better than the 9mm for stopping threats, and it's a little more consistent to perform well under adverse conditions due to it's extra mass/momentum and a little extra power. That's all this was about. I had no idea people would freak out and go on and on about personally buying 100,000 rounds of 9mm and how it's too expensive for the regular shooter like them to buy 100,000 rounds of .45 ACP.....or how all 9mm pistols hold 20+ rounds while all .45 ACP pistols hold 8 rounds maximum. Just a lot of nonsense comments over what is nothing more than a basic rundown and ballistic test. I would like to remind everyone, that the FBI statistics still show a 7 yard average distance and 1-5 rounds fired on an average civilian defensive encounter. I am not saying it's impossible that the average .45 ACP pistol that holds maybe 10 rounds on average won't run dry if you keep shooting and missing your target, what I am saying is that the obsession about capacity for non LEO's doesn't make sense. If your fundamentals are good, you statistically don't need the typical 17+1 rounds of a Glock 17 nor do you need the typical 13+1 of a Glock 21. What you need is to shoot well, and all I am here to do is to remind you that 9mm is not the only option you have and regular civilians are not generally mandated to carry a 9mm. That was my point. I have had it with this emotional nonsense and these John Wick/call of duty fantasyland comments and I am done responding to them. Carry on at your own risk.
My prediction of incoming indignation was on point. Not to mention a troll army descending upon the comments section. I sincerely hope that you start posting these features on Rumble after release at some point. Sadly the real conversation will probably remain somewhere other than here. Thanks for sharing though, even though I am generally a .40/10mm pistol afficionado I appreciate you taking time to tackle this topic.
This is the one topic guaranteed to cause serious discussion among shooters.. I see this in training schools, CCW class, at the range and in the gunstore. Everyone has an opinion and everyone will have to find out for themselves. Carrying a pistol concealed all day will teach you some things.Especially if it holds 12 rounds on 45 There is no substitute for Situational Awareness and TRAINING, after that accuracy and speed come into play. Caliber is way down the road. No two shooters are alike.
@@chrisbrowne4669 I agree with all that you shared, but concealed carry is just one carry option. I had to carry professionally in a duty holster and sadly my first employer in the field did not care to equip the patrol vehicles with a carbine or shotgun. Your sidearm is elevated to a level of importance disproportionate to it's actual utility and details like caliber, bullet weight and cartridge matter more than they should. Fortunately for me that particular employer granted us considerable discretion in the sidearm we were allowed to carry so I was able to maintain a reasonable level of confidence.
As a guntuber, you should have had the common sense brain capacity to know that this is a contentious topic. It seems you are devoid of such. And now you want to play damage control for your own failures. Life dont work that way on TH-cam old man
@@CapoKabar Contentious? If you live in a jurisdiction that limits magazine capacity and bans hollow point ammunition testing like this is easy to understand and relate to. Nothing for anyone to get bent about, just for all to understand that when your options are limited some things matter more than others. But I am sure you already knew that, right?
The hottest 9mm I've tested (was able to load before case failure) launched a 147gr pill at 1100fps out of a 4.5" barrel. The .45 ACP..... ahh, the .45 ACP. You know, most modern handguns that are chambered in .45, AND HAVE A FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER, will safely fire the modern version of the old warhorse, the .45 super, by a simple spring swap. The operating pressure of a standard. 45 ACP is 21,000 psi, 23,000 psi for a +p load. A well loaded .45 ACP will give you about 850fps with a 230gr pill out of a 4.5" barrel. A really hot loaded +p will give you about 950fps with the same 230gr pill out of the same barrel. Now, a .45 supers operating pressure is 26,000 psi. This will reliably give you around 1100fps with a 230gr pill with good ammo. That puts your energy numbers over 600 ft lbs. On par with good 10mm loads and most factory .357 mag ammo. The hottest load I can safely make for my 9mm yields just shy of 400 ft lbs.... the two aren't comparable when loaded with modern components. The only way a 9mm can be equal to a .45 is when you compare old tech with a .45 to new tech in a 9mm. Not a fair comparison in my opinion.
Ignore the stupid comments people leave. You're a subject matter expert, and people aren't out there testing firearms like you are so often. 45 ACP is a powerful round that's been proven for a long time. Foot pound energy is going to win. 9 MM is good enough for most purposes.
Yeah, people can argue on here all day long, but the basic laws of physics haven’t changed. And basically everything you just talked about involved basic laws of physics. Good video
If caliber truly didn't matter, Cape Buffalo hunters would be using 22 long rifle. Caliber, velocity, energy, bullet design, and shot placement all matter.
@John_Malloy So feel free to carry a 22 long rifle. I am pro freedom. Stopping an animal is stopping an animal. A drugged up animal intent on killing you is tougher to stop than a whitetail, but you do you.
@John_Malloy Actually he does a lot of tests for hunting ammunition and dangerous animal defense, but you do you. I support freedom. Stopping a 200lb animal is stopping a 200 lb animal, we just aren't quite as hairy.
Not sure why people continually talk about how "the 9mm is better, and performs better that's why the government went with 9mm". There's a ton of sources on this subject, so I will condense it all into an overview of everything that happened from the 1986 Miami shootout through decades of FBI ballistic testing. Basically, the FBI tried a lot of cartridges, and found that the 10mm and even the .45 ACP was too much recoil for average agents to shoot well, so the .40 S&W was invented and that helped some with ability to shoot a higher caliber a little better, so the FBI used the .40 S&W for a good 25 years. Then a lot of agents of more recently couldn't score well with .40 S&W either. By the time 2015 rolled around, all of the bullet and cartridge technology that ammo companies had been working on from the 1980's until 2015, made the 9mm be able to check off all the boxes of penetration, expansion percentages - all while being easier to handle for agents, a lot of them DEI hires. At the end of the day, this improved 9mm performance was _almost as good_ as the .40 S&W and .45 ACP, at less of a cost to them because 9mm is cheaper. A lot of people take what the FBI did and subsequent copying by other law enforcement agencies due to the 9mm's improvement, as meaning that the 9mm was somehow now better than other cartridges. It's not. The 9mm has been worked on and tweaked so much to make it almost as good as other cartridges. Think about that for a moment. There has never been any legitimate studies that show the 9mm performing better than .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 10mm Auto, .357 Magnum/Sig and the list goes on and on. The 9mm always ranks as a little bit less effective than most other choices. I have heard every conceivable excuse from people as to why they chose the 9mm, from price of ammo to follow up shots to capacity. And while these are true things, a person should ask themselves how many rounds do they actually train with, is saving insignificant amounts of money important to them, do they really need 18 rounds when FBI stats say the average civilian defensive encounter is 3 shots, do what they see in John Wick movies really happen in every defensive encounter with them needing to stop 14 armed attackers? All I have ever done with testing and research is to tell the truth, dig deeper and tell the truth. What I have discovered with doing this, is a lot of people don't actually want the truth, they prefer justification for their own choice. I don't carry 9mm or .45 ACP so I don't have a dog in this fight, despite being accused of having one. I just wanted to relay things I have researched, and what I have researched is contradictory to what people have been telling me for a long time, so I thought I would make a video about this.
An old testing back in the day of all the military calibers of the day, I believe it was an American test. The .455 Webley with a slower bullet was a little more effective over the .45ACP. Then again, the tests were with standard bullets of the time and if I am not completely mistaken, the targets were pineboards on one test and live animals on another.
I want to make a mention here. I do not delete comments for merely disagreeing with me, that's the truth. That being said, not one person who agreed with me had their comments deleted, and every single one of the dozen or two deleted, were from people who disagreed with me. This has nothing to do with disagreeing with the subject matter, as there's still many disagreeing comments. The reason why it's only the people who disagree with me with deleted comments, are because in literally every one of those comments, they included in either the main comment or reply to my reply, gaslighting nonsense, name calling, calling me dumb and whatnot, stuff like that. You just won't really see back and forth responses like that when people agree on a subject. So it's not the disagreement that gets them deleted, it's their behavior alone. For years I have been accused of deleting comments for merely disagreeing, people saying "Gun Sam deleted my comment because I disagreed" which is not true. It's what they didn't mention, their behavior, is what got them deleted. Example might be "Gun Sam, the FBI stats show you are wrong" - would I delete that comment? Absolutely not. What a lot of these trolls will not say is the whole story, here's a whole story - "Gun Sam, the FBI stats show you are wrong", then I reply "No, I am right and you are wrong because etc ect etc". Then they come back "do some research buddy, nothing you said was correct, you don't know anything that you are talking about, such an dummy, your mom really messed you up" Then I delete the comment, block them if it's rude enough, only to have rumors that I simply delete comments for not agreeing with them.
One more point in favor of 9mm is that lower recoil causes less flinch in newer shooters, speeding the learning curve and encouraging more practice. Most critical components in a gun fight are shooters attitude, confidence and competence - notice caliber is not in this list. I think it is critical for each individual to determine what they can carry and most effectively shoot.
@@GunSam I think you do great work with your videos. They are very informative and you explain what you do. All the haters can make their own videos if they want and that is that. You have good set of tests, and you go far beyond the range many others even remotely try to shoot their pistols. You shoot great at distance. Only very active guys and gals doing this can match it. Keep the vids coming . :)
I see the point being made and I agree that .40 and .45 are more powerful and bigger projectiles than 9mm. What I will say is yea 9mm is cheaper, easier to shoot, and with modern ammunition meets all the requirements to be a perfectly acceptable round for self defense I’d argue 9mm is better than .40 and .45 cause it strikes a perfect balance making just about anyone able to train with it a lot, shoot it well, and for the round itself to be lethal enough to stop a fight with well placed shots. While I 100% agree that .40 and .45 outperform it ballistically what I will say is handgun rounds excluding magnum level revolver cartridges, .357 sig, and 10mm are very wimpy compared to long guns and commonly fail to stop targets fast unless hit many times or hit directly in a vital area hence why LEO and Military are trained to fire center mass until the target is no longer moving. We should keep in mind .40 S&W is still among the most popular law enforcement cartridges in America and has been for decades now many law enforcement officers needing many shots to stop bad guys occurs with .40 as well at the end of the day it is a neutered 10mm not to say it’s not a great round or to say that “9mm is just as good” cause that would be false but what I will say is that handguns in general tend to fail to produce the movie like stops or massive damage in real life that a shotgun or rifle will easily get in close quarters. I carry a 9mm Glock 19 and a 1911 commander size .45 auto so I like a bit of both in my life if I was facing a line attacker I cannot lie I’d prefer the wound diameter that a .45 would offer me over a 9mm but if I was faced by more than one guy I’d prefer the 16 rounds I have in my gun with the 9mm as opposed to the 8 in my .45 and I will say I think 9mm is the overall best handgun caliber but I 100% agree there are many handgun calibers that outperform it from a ballistic standpoint.
Love how this pops up on my feed after getting an XD 45. Having worked as a medical professional in a crime ridden city, I saw a handful of gunshot wounds, and that sealed the deal on why I shoot higher calibers. Is 9mm effective? Yeah. But higher calibers resolve the issue faster and legally speaking, use less rounds which makes YOU as the shooter less likely to serve jail time. So I let people carry what they want, but I'm playing this game on easy mode
@jason200912 I was not a surgeon, so I cannot give you an answer. What I will say is using logic, cheap ammo is probably what most criminals would be using, definitely agree with that. But I don't even know who they were shot by most times. Could have been police, armed citizen, or even another criminal. But I saw both pistol and rifle caliber holes, and that was enough to make my decision on what to carry. And 45 is probably the lowest I will go on a CC
@@BlueJayWaters cops only run fusion/gold dot on rifles and gold dot on pistols. If theyre broke then perhaps they might run fmj on rifles? Occasionally they might go federal hst for pistol if their pd has a contract but usually they dont
@@jason200912i can tell you that miss matched ammo in one magazine from one firearm is common in street shootings. They tend to load with whatever they can get their hands on.
Wait, you bought an XD... in 2024... and it's. 45? Have you ever heard the phrase, "two wrongs don't make a right"? Does the place you bought it from accept refunds? :/
My budy has been in law enforcement for over 20 years. He said that subjects shot with the .40 almost never survived. A few years ago, his agency switched to 9mm, and now most suspects that are shot survive.
I've heard that as well. Also in the footage I could find confirmed as .40 S&W in police footage, always showed the same thing. A double tap and a screaming bad guy on the ground. The average 9mm footage is like 8 hits before they go down, slight grumbling. Huge difference
@@Tom-cp6yj After the cops went to the 9mm they were the ones that came up with " dump the mag " . Because the nine was not doing what it was put up to be
9mm is C H E A P. That's what its biggest appeal is. And it is probably one of THE lowest denominators in combat cartridges that non-shooting,( i.e. inexperienced), small stature individuals can handle well under stress. Experienced shooters and larger stature, stronger individuals who know the difference between a mediocre threat stopping cartridge and better or superior threat stopping cartridge, tend to pick larger calibers and sometimes even larger calibers that ALSO have high velocity. In this category is where .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .40 S&W, 10mm, .44 Special, .44 magnum and .357 magnum tend to reside. The premise behind this, is that experienced shooters know that if they can launch a big chunk of metal, at either high or moderate velocity, at a threat? The bigger chunk of metal will do more damage to bone, blood vessels, and organs. Which will STOP a threat faster than a smaller, high velocity chunk of metal can. Whether that chunk of metal expands or even breaks apart is kind of irrelevant. Because the bigger chunk of metal will still do even MORE damage if IT does the same. Being of course, bigger from the start.
Stopping a threat is a pass/fail scenario. Either the threat is stopped or it is not. With modern hollow point ammo 9mm, 40, 45 and many others will generally all pass given proper shot placement. If you start talking fmj I want a 45, its proven itself a pass. The same can't be said of some other cartridges.
Hey Sam, another great video. Pretty sure I haven’t missed any of you over the years if I was a bazillion air you’d have all you wanted unfortunately I’m not thank you so much for all you do for this community. We all love you. We all appreciate what you do don’t listen to naysayers you’re a hell of a subject matter expert. I’ve been doing this as well for over 40 years and I’ve never seen someone so concise so easy to listen to well done, sir.
I have a buddy who was in combat for a very long time. He said that the newer guys all carried 9mm but he liked the .45 for the damage it did. He saw many bullet wounds. His life depended on it so I think .45acp is pretty damn good. Now he didn't care what anyone carried. He said he would trust his life with the .45 and to me that says A LOT!!!!!!! I think the 10mm is the best way to go but what the hell do I know. I have never seen combat and most likely never will. I have zero credibility.
There's no doubt about it and your test confirms it , the .45acp is undoubtedly more powerful . The Gel test clearly demonstrates the difference and the impact on that steel plate shows the .45 striking harder . Plus the numbers are on the .45acp side . Great test Gun Sam , good job !
The U.S. military used .45 caliber sidearms from 1873 until 1985. That speaks to me given what was expected of these handgun cartridges over the long course of their use.
The 45 ACP was designed to mimic the performance of the 45 Colt, another dual purpose cartridge. It worked splendidly. Prior to WW2, the military cavalry was deemed. obsolete so the 45 ACP became solely an anti-personnel round. Standardization with NATO caused the DOD to drop the 45 ACP in favor of the 9 mm, a less effective cartridge in FMJ, as per the rules of The Hague Accords.
@@PassivePortfolios You know your history! Cavalry use was one of the most influential reasons why the .45 caliber sidearm was chosen early on. A sidearm had to hit hard to do what was needed in that role. Thanks for sharing!
@@hillbillyscholar8126 Worth noting that in the late 19th century the U.S. military actually temporarily left the .45 Colt as stamdard, and went to .38 and .32 caliber sidearms for a time, and found them to be lackluster in combat (Philippine War and Moro Rebellion), subsequently requesting a new .45 caliber service cartridge. So yes, from c. 1873 till the adoption of the Beretta in the '80s, the military utilized .45 caliber sidearms, but to buttress your point further, we should remember that during that time they abandoned the .45 caliber once, and it worked out terrible.
@@LibertysetsquareJack Indeed they did. I have to confess that the .45 Colt is one of my two favorite handgun rounds, the other being the .357 Magnum. Both were created for a particular purpose, as was the .45 ACP. They have all aged quite well. No need for a century of determination to make any of them good enough, they were all that way from the start.👍
What impressed me here and I think you touched on a tiny bit is that the 45 with much larger frontal area going slower passed through those barriers, cloth MDF, gel, and MDF while it penetrated the same as 9. Puts to rest the argument that penetration is an issue with 45. The true FUD which is not from the 10mm .40, 45 crowd but the 45 is dead crowd.
Shot placement is key. End of story. That being said i like both. I hope either will save my life if trouble finds me. If you got a 9, 40, 45 or even a 22 handgun make sure its working properly and make sure you are a damn good shot with it. Credits for the 45, i feel more comfortable carrying one for big cat and black bear protection. However the 9 has greater range, capacity, cheaper, and works better in smaller guns. Both are great defense choices. The real issue is those 357 mag nerds.
Modern bullet technology makes 9mm a _viable_ self defense round. But the same bullet technology that has made 9mm bullets better has also made .45 ACP bullets better. All holes are bad, but bigger holes are badder. Bullets work by causing blood pressure to drop below the point where consciousness can be maintained. All other things being equal, the bigger hole gets you there faster. The faster the fight ends, the better your chance of walking away from it in one piece. I carry big bores when I can.
45 caliber with 568 ft. Lb of energy ? I didn't realize that was typical. I didn't think 45 would push a bullet 1200 FPS I like your argument though. Foot pounds of energy versus momentum. Usually after watching a bullet comparison with a lighter bullet having a significantly higher foot pounds, I will calculate and compare their respective momentums to balance things out (bullet weight times speed) Today the 45 has the edge and momentum and energy
Good points on the 9mm vs. .45 discussion. I don't get too wrapped up in calibers debates much anymore, but I do carry both. With that said, if I HAD to pick getting shot with a 9mm or .45 (both heavy for caliber and similar bullet design), I'd pick the 9mm every time. Of course, I'd just rather not get shot.
Gun Sam, I have watched a few videos before. I subbed because of how you approached this subject. Thank you for your commonsense talk. Keep 'em coming!
Simple math of the FMJs shows the circular hole produced by the 45 “.453” compared to the hole produced by the 9 mm “.357” has 60% more surface area. Seems to me a better chance to hit something vital.
Good shooting. I do belive the 45 is a better defense round, but the best round is thd one you shoot well. I do have a friend that did two tours in the GWOT, issued the M9 in 9mm. He did use more than a few times. When he discharged he got a Glock in .45 ACP, said never again depending on 9mm for stopping power. (I grew up in the time of .357 or 1911 45 were the most common)
I don't even own a .45, at this point in time. But the wider 45 caliber bullet, even at a slower velocity than 9mm, will cut, tear, and do more tissue damage than 9mm. Size does matter, sometimes. Thanks, Sam. 👊👍👍🇺🇸
Shot placement is number 1. However, I think the fact that most people agree that 25 acp is too small/weak and the fact that people use high quality +p hp's in their 9mm proves that people care about diameter and energy as well. If people care about bullet size and energy, then 45 having more of both than 9mm means that all other things being equal, 45 is more effective. 10mm even more so. The problem is that all other things are not equal. The real question is; is the additional effect worth he disadvantages compared to 9? For myself 9mm is a good middle ground especially with small pistols but I do think the 45 has more effect on target with equal shot placement. Once in awhile that additional effect might make a difference.
I think the real advantages of 9mm are a little more subtle than most online content would suggest. The cost of ammunition, and small very concealable handguns are the two most relevant differences. Differences in magazine capacity is another good point that most people make. Beyond that, most of the stuff about ballistics is a little contrived and skewed. I'm not the biggest .45 guy, but it's simply a fact that with proper choices in ammo, .45 is more likely to stop an attack if you hit your target.
Many years ago when I got into pistol shooting, I started with a 9mm. Sometime in the 80's a guy named Evan Marshall did a fairly comprehensive study on the difference between .45ACP and 9mm in actual shootings producing one shot stops. The 230gr FMJ and the 115 JHP produced 66% and 67% effectiveness. Pretty dang close. Today, with improved bullet design and .45 bullet HP, that margin opens up. Shooting a 9mm, you must figure on multiple hits to do the job, therefore the need for large capacity mags. Sure, a 9mm is pretty good, a .45 ACP with a good HP or copper hybrid like the Underwood is better. Recoil is an issue for some people, that's why the .40 S&W was replaced for DEI governed agencies. I shoot all three calibers, I hand load all three, I cast and powder coat all three. Yep, significant difference on impact energies. Regardless of caliber choice, get good at hitting what you aim at with multiple hits. You'll need that extra capacity. Velocity matters, the .357 magnum outperformed everything, it's not a current favorite for carry. It came in at 95% one shot torso hit stops. That makes a viable argument for the .357 Sig, though expensive cartridges and more recoil is a deterrent for many. If I had to pick just one it'd likely be the .45 followed by a .40, oddly enough, my current EDC is a 9mm for most days. They all will work, know the limitations and effectiveness.
My logic is I have seen some of the best premium defense grades bullets fail to expand on various shots in every cakliber. I hedge my bets with the .45 because if ammo fails to expand, at least you still have the .45 effect. Also, if your attacker is wearing body armor, the 45 hits harder through armor. It won't penetrate, but the impact will be much heavier, and it will hurt a lot more. It's one of the reasons why LAPD officers were allowed to purchase. 45s after the North Hollywood Bank Shootout. That same effect most likely saved lives in Taylor, Texas, too. The shooter was briefly knocked out by two .45 hits to chest in spite of the fact he was wearing body armor.
Nice video, thanks. In my personal opinion, formed over a 40 career in law enforcement, there are a few reasons departments pick 9 mm as their issue weapon/caliber of choice. First, the top brass don't know much about ballistics and go with whatever other departments do, or with whatever their in-house trainers suggest. Second, not everyone can handle the recoil of more powerful handguns so the top brass decide on a one-size-fits-all weapon/caliber combination that the smallest, weakest, least adept employees can qualify with. Third, 9 mm is cheaper and more readily available than .45 ACP, so is a blessing to budgets and procurement alike. I was lucky enough to work for enlightened Chiefs throughout my career, in that every department I worked for had a policy which allowed each officer to use any firearm/caliber combination they wanted to - provided that it was of high quality manufacture, at least .38 Spl, and the officer could qualify with the weapon. These departments offered practice ammo in one or two calibers and anything else the officer had to buy personally. Why this latitude in weapon choice? Because one size does NOT fit all, in shoes, pants, shirts, or firearms. My favorite carry calibers were 1) .45 Colt, 2) 10 mm, 3) .45 ACP, 4) .40 S&W, 5) .357 Mag, and 6) 9mm. I carried each on duty and could find something nice to say about each.
When you said the 45 +p feels more like a magnum actually it has the energy of it with 568 fpe. Like a low end 357 mag. The quite powerful 9mm +p only had 404 fpe.
An agent told me his first defence shot was above the weapon, below shoulder. The man was spun around to be easily apprehended. 45acp agency hollowpoint. He was going to purchase a 44spl revolver because he trusted the big bullet as a backup.
Having been in the medical field for over 30 years and now running radiology and cardiology at an urban hospital, if you get shot with a .22, we are discussing your care. If you get shot with a .45, you are under anesthesia going to the OR.
Not really. Surgeons care about what got struck more than what they were struck with. .45 ACP and .22 LR are both low velocity cartridges and are fairly equivalent in a discussion about the trauma kinematics.
@@jcraigsheltonRight, but if you get shot in a place that isn’t immediately lethal, which caliber would you rather get shot by? I don’t think this is a really interesting question.
Hi Sam! To keep it simple, I use IPSC power factor as a quick and dirty comparison for M×V=E. . Assuming .45 ball does 230gr @ 850 = a 195.5 pf. A common 9mm fmj of 124 gr @ 1200fps = 148.8 pf. Considering that the 230gr .45 has twice the mass, and about 27% more in diameter, the common .45 wins hands down. Thanks for the fine presentation!!
I think the terminology contributes to arguing just as much as people's lack of desire to be corrected, or change their minds is a problem. Maybe "stopping effect" or "incapacitation power" or something similar would be more clear. Certainly if someone is on their feet and become incapacitated, they "knock down" so to speak. There's so little ballistic understanding in so much of the arguing, it's silly.
I don't understand this current movement to discredit 45acp. I don't know if it's a strange secret antigun movement or a 9mm fan boy thing, but it's ridiculous
They’re operating under false assumptions about what factors actually matter. These people are the same ones who will hold capacity to be the most important attribute in handguns, and are also swayed heavily by marketing jargon and appeals to authority. I bet they also wore the mask.
@@brentharrington9235 Whait a minute their hombre! The M1A is not bad, it is just too long with too many parts, and the 20" AR is what the M193 sings in. But post Fallujah, we have to face that short long guns are what is needed, and even the 14" M4 was a bit long and did not perform for long distances such as COP Keating. The New Super 6's perform great in 12" barrels out to 1000m, so there is no more need for the limited M4 and the heavy M1A, both getting yet longer with a suppressor. Still, 9mm is the DEI Caliber
@@miguellogistics984 I'm not saying there aren't other, newer designs that are better in different situations. I'm just saying there's a lot of nonsense people saying that BECAUSE there are new things, the old things are no longer effective.
9mm is cheaper and w/o getting political, it is a reality that there are quotas in police agencies. If an agency has a very small pool to pick from then then applicants might not be well trained or experienced with firearms. Not every agency has super tactical Rambo operators to pick from. Using 9mm requires less training to qualify, costs less, smaller grips on the guns generally and recoil is more manageable. It raises the probability of qualifying, especially with hiring quotas.
My former agency replaced the 9 mm with the 45 ACP but now it is looking at going back to the 9 mm based on cost and qualification scores. The irony is that the qualification scores went up after it switched from the Beretta 92 to the Glock 21.
Recoil of 45 ACP is pretty damn manageable too. It's not like we're talking 500 S&W or something. The elephant in the room is that something such as a Glock 21 is physically larger, in terms of the actual firearm planform, and that's a potential problem for women with small hands. So you can thank Feminism for most (if not all) of this "better qualification" and "recoil management" BS. That's the elephant in the room. You start getting female cops, then you start seeing all this talk about recoil. It's not a coincidence. What's even more cringy though is guys buying into this crap. All these guys running around talking about how much recoil a 10mm Auto or 45 ACP has. No, it doesn't have undue recoil. You've been brainwashed and NLP'ed to anticipate that as the "proper" assessment because Girl Power.
@@LibertysetsquareJack We never had any complaints about Glock 21 grip size but some women complained about the Beretta 92 fat grip, which was sacrilege to the reservists who worshipped it.
If I was an auto pistol guy, I’d be a .45 guy. It’s kinda the perfect blend of power and shootability, and in the case of 1911s I shoot them better than anything aside from like target .22s or 6” revolvers. To be honest, I wish I trusted myself with the manual of arms of an auto mostly because of how impressed I am with the .45s I’ve shot and how they treat targets. I’m not and have never been a cop or soldier or anything else, I shoot a lot but have no ‘real’ training. I’ll be scared to death, panicked, scattered, shaky and all-around compromised if I ever have to use a handgun to defend myself, the last thing I need is to have to remember safeties, malfunction clearing, a light trigger, etc., so like you I’m a .38 +p revolver guy, likewise in the woods I’ll carry a 4.2” .357 GP100 or 5.5” .44 RedHawk, because a bear or moose is arguably scarier than a crazy crackhead. Great vid, great explanation.
.45's do shoot pretty good. Most of the standard pressure ammo I shoot feels to me, like the same recoil as a 9mm, albeit with a tad more muzzle jump. It's how I spot people on here that have never shot one lol. For whatever reason they imagine the recoil to be so severe that you cannot make a follow-up shot, ever.
I think this was an excellent video with common sense explanations. My current carry gun is a 9mm because I needed something in a particular size that didn't work for any .45acp guns I had. As a LEO I carried 9mm and .45acp and I like both but as you pointed out, they are not equal for the reasons you laid out. Hope you have a great Thanksgiving Holiday!
The thing about mass and momentum that really matters is relative scale. A .45 ACP bullet will not penetrate a granite block; and a 9mm will not be deflected by a toothpick. It is the relative size of deflecting elements of the human body that the bullet encounters in its path that matters, when compared to the mass and momentum of the bullet. A 9mm can have the same momentum as a .45 ACP bullet - momentum is, after all, just mass times velocity. But bullet mass is largely invariant, whereas velocity is highly variant. Combined with the relative size of obstacles to bullet travel within the human body - not rabbit bodies and not bison bodies; human bodies - a 9mm is far more likely to be deflected by those obstacles than a bullet twice its weight, and will lose velocity and resultant momentum much faster than will the .45. Just as with recoil, pistol grip size, etc. it is the scale of the human body relative to the bullet that matters in determining such things as bullet path and depth of penetration - and bigger, heavier bullets are just better than smaller, lighter bullets at maintaining their path, and at leaving a hole through which blood can exit from the body. The .45 ACP would not have been kept in use by our military for as long as it has been (still in use) if it were ineffective. And there's anecdotal truth in the saying: "Those wounded with a 9mm go straight to the ER; those wounded with a .45 go straight to the morgue." Such aphorisms arise from observations over many years by those who observe outcomes on the front lines of emergency medicine. Good video, and good explanations as always. Thanks for the dependably informative work.
Thanks Sam great video. I would love to see you continue with 9 mm versus 45 comparisons using different hollowpoint ammunition and the exact same test medium(that was eye-opening and fantastic) and I would think people will enjoy seeing you continue to include different ball ammo as well, maybe some of the Gucci boutique FMJ that’s a little bit hotter from Buffalo bore or Underwood. And some of the flat nose FMJ too…. that would be interesting shot alongside the different hollow points….. I really enjoyed this video. I was issued at 9 mm in the early 90s and then we carried 45s for 20 years and then they went back to 9 mm, like you said because of cost.
Re: Law Enforcement choice of 9mm. Cost, yes, but also retreat. They're recruiting dregs that couldn't handle 45 acp and, of recent history, 40 S&W. They attempted to use the advent of 30 Super Carry because the dregs (in many cases) can't even handle 9mm. Fortunately, that experiment failed. One other note: State Troopers are often operating alone. They need to end the threat immediately. Almost from the start, their weapons were either 1911's or 357 Magnum revolvers. Glock 21's (45 acp, 13 round capacity) are their primary sidearm today...
I’ve heard these arguments for years, especially w/regard to the thirty-eight in my day. My OIS proved the .38 we had to be more than capable of ending the threat. When we transitioned to the Glock, the .45 was rejected due to the size of the grip and some of the smaller women on the department. My EDC in retirement is a 340PD loaded w/110 grain +P for better recoil control. Impressive accuracy from distance.
The U S Army developed the .45 auto in response to the .38 used in the Phillipines not being a man stopper. The .45 was designed to take a man down no matter where he was hit. The argument goes way back to the original service pistols, the Navy always chose a .36 or .38, the Army always specified . .44 or .45. Even before revolvers in 1836 it was true in single shot arms. If capacity bothers you learn and practice tactical reloads.
SAM - OUTSTANDING video!! Huge thanks as I was called a fud yesterday for my 45 collection even though I have other calibers 😅 Your explanation is spot on - momentum is something people tend to overlook altogether. I can't wait to see the comments and hear about all the 9mm fanboy hate mail 😂😭 This is a favorite video now - awesome!
Fudds have the advantage of history and wisdom. They may use the label in a derogatory way, but honestly, it says more about how the view themselves than it does you...someone I'm sure they knew nothing about.
I have gotten a lot of internet firearms "experts" chiming in on this video. While I don't claim to know everything, I do still stand by my opinion based on all the studying and testing I have done over the years. Also - If I was gonna be honest, the reason why there are so many "9mm Fanboys" is because 80% of pistols in a gun store are 9mm, often times they are decent ones that are $225 and target ammo is like $14 a box at the same gun store. People often buy a gun, buy a box of FMJ with plans to practice, buy a box of Critical Defense, plan to test it out but don't, then assume the pistol will run fine. It probably will, but still it's not a good idea to assume. I can all but guarantee that after they buy their 9mm pistol (or before) they use TH-cam as a research tool and more than likely they are following a lot of "Tacticool" advice instead of legitimate advice. These people more than likely look for videos on here to justify their purchase and trash videos that do not justify their purchase, thus why I have gotten so many trolls on this video, because all the negative comments are very emotionally based. I am willing to bet that after their Tacticool research and before they even fire their new pistol, they are now an 'expert' with advice to give, such as it's 'impossible' to afford .45 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum etc because the 5,000 rounds of 9mm they say they need for regular training, is affordable but other calibers are not. These same people may or may not fire that $14, 50 round box of 9mm target ammo within the next year, while they continue to tell you what YOU need to do and tell you how 9mm is the best cartridge that exists while repeating nonsense about other choices. At the end of the day, each one of these trolls are just one guy with one Hi-Point or Taurus that have never fired their pistol yet. It sounds so silly, but I know it' true and you other content creators that deal with these same people know it's true too! And before I leave, I want to say that I never said nor did I think that the 9mm is a bad choice, it can be a good choice with the right pistol and ammo selection, I was just sharing my opinion that the .45 ACP is NOT WORSE than the 9mm like is said to me day in and day out. As a content creator who gets a lot of comments, I hear the same nonsense day in and day out that the 9mm is more powerful than the .357 Magnum or .45 ACP, and that you can't possibly defend yourself with less than 17 rounds, or 'cops choose 9mm because it's the best' (as if individual LEO's have a selection) and the comments are non stop, dozens a day. It goes on (to steal Paul Harrell's quote) at nauseum (RIP). Enough is enough. I have a right to hit back and share my opinion as much as trolls have a right to share theirs.
I agree and you make valid arguments. I am a cop and my department doesn’t issue service weapons. With that being said, I get to choose from department-approved handgun manufacturers as long as they are 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. I’ve never liked .40 and I have a few 9mm handguns. They work well, but I recently went back to a .45 ACP. I’ve always liked .45 and I generally shoot better with it over 9mm. From a LEO perspective, use what works for you and what you are comfortable with. But, take your handgun out and train with it. It is a tool that someone’s life may depend on it, possibly your own. If you don’t train with it, you’ll just be more of a liability with it.
Ban the trolls and troublemakers. I know that is not your style but the 21st century morality, if it can be called that, empowers this crowd. It does not help that YT is trying to run off any creator that does not generate considerable ad revenue for them and channels that promote firearms in any way are among those they throttle hard to this end. Some of your content will naturally trigger those who do not have a mind stimulated by scientific evidence or hard data so outbursts will happen, but trolls and troublemakers are a different crowd. Anyway, I hope this is not the last Red Pill you administer to the audience. 👍💪❤💯
@@GunSam spot on with everything said Sam, I went away from 9mm about 16-18 years ago just because .45 acp is a better choice in an autoloader to me hands down. I honestly don't carry a semi auto much any more since I went to revolvers about 10 years ago even though I own many, I prefer a revolver for multiple reasons over a semi auto. I carry a .45 colt or a .357 because I believe as a result of all my years of testing and real world experience they are the best choices for me. Keep up the great and informative videos regardless what the fanboys think!
ALWAYS--THANK YOU!! Great "Real World" comparative test---Agree with your parameters--Thoroughly enjoy & appreciate all you do--Great channel ! Great videos!
You, sir, are absolutely correct. People over-champion the 9mm because they've allowed preference to supercede reality. It's a common issue in almost every comparison. Thanx for your input again.
@@117rebel I did two videos called like "manstoppers" and "more manstoppers" where I compared all the 90%+ one shot stop rounds. I recall testing Federal hydrashok .45 ACP and Remington .357 Mag and others in one video
my 45acp handloads are within SAMMI spec and have 100 ft lbs more energy than 9mm +P ammo. 260 grain Speer 3/4 jacketed HP at over 850 fps it will punch through the skull plate on a bull moose. the kinetic impact energy on heavier bullets can be better, lighter bullets can deflect more.
Tactics don't just start during the gun fight. You prepare yourself properly. Picking the right weapon and ammo is an obvious part of that. Most times that you have to use your weapon, it's not a moment where you have time to think a bunch. Alot of people are lucky if they have the time to get their gun and aim it. If you're trying to say tactics don't get enough credit im with you but pretending like how you prepare yourself doesn't matter is crazy. Like the guy said, you wouldn't carry a 22. for self defense to prove that point. At least I hope.
@@GunSamI think most people carry guns in TH-cam comment sections, but not in real life. For people who legitimately have their guns on them the question is Convenience or Effectiveness, or trying to find a good midpoint. 45 is better than 9, but 11-13 rounds of 9mm is better than 6-7 rounds of 45acp. That’s my non-expert opinion, but I do think it’s logical. As this is a revolver channel - yeah, if you’ve got 8 rounds max, then pick the best cartridge.
@@shanetaylor761 What I am saying is that you can carry a .45 and if you never train, it may not matter what caliber you’re carrying. Your ability to react and apply tactics you’ve trained are vastly more important than if you’re carrying a Stacatto 2011 or a Colt 1911.
First of all, I own both 9mm and .45 ACP firearms. Saying that one cartridge is better than the other is like saying that a large flathead screwdriver is better than a small precision Phillips head. They are two different tools for different purposes.
Back in the late 1960s, I started shooting 38 special and 357 magnum. In the early 1990s, I began shooting 9mm instead of 38 special and 45acp instead of 357 magnum. For me, the 9mm was a good replacement for the 38 special but the 45acp was never a good replacement for the 357 magnum.
I love the 45, the 40, and the 9mm. To claim that X is better than Y is ridiculous one way or the other. Better at what? Energy on target? Penetration? Capacity? Manageable recoil? Cost to benefit? Weight to carry? Sub sonic performance? Defeating barriers? How much better? Marginally? Significantly? Exponentially? In how many factors? How do you judge that? Most pistol calibers are close enough in performance to not make a significant difference. The one you can afford and checks the most boxes for your use case and preference is the better choice for you.
.45 > more penetration >more stopping power >greater effective distance 9mm > less recoil=accuracy+faster follow up shots >higher magazine capacity >most common handgun round >usually more reliable I think a .45 with +p fmj would be best suited as a hunting sidearm and would be a good gtw sidearm and the 9mm imo covers everything else
good video . awesome debate . i swap carrying both . I use underwood extreme defender with both . .45 advantage is size and advantage to 9 is less recoil so follow up shots are quicker to get back on target . both have good points but the best caliber is the one you actually train with .
You touched on the attractiveness of 9mm - cheaper ammo, cheaper firearms, longer lasting firearms (as compared to .40S&W due to less pressure), and easier to shoot for females and small gents. This is why 9 mm is more attractive to decision makers.
( Slightly humorous) Or you could say that the .40 was a Compromise in search of a problem . Or to throw out a snappy one line 'er - If you decide to go bigger than 9mm , no point to only go half way .
Most handgun stopping power is really not that great. 45 is going to have a slight edge on a shot per shot basis. However i would not worry about it. They are both capable of stopping someone with excellent shot placement. There are many things to consider outside of "stopping power" as well, if you are your best shot with a 9mm then use that, large differences is stopping power only exist statistically between handguns vs shotguns and rifles. Use what you are comfortable with and something that is compact and light enough that you will actually carry it
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I'm going to mention something here because a version of the exact same comment keeps coming up and I want to set the record straight. I have had probably 30 comments saying something to the effect of "9mm is better than .45 ACP, it's 17+1 of 9mm VS 7+1 of .45 ACP so 9mm wins because of capacity".
That is some serious cherry picking right there. I could also argue that a S&W TRR8 revolver loaded with 8 rounds of .38 Special+P+ is better than a Diamondback DB9 9mm loaded with 6 rounds of 9mm standard pressure ammo. While that TRR8 revolver is certainly better than a Diamondback DB9, that would be as dumb of an example as comparing the Glock 17 9mm to a 1911 .45 ACP.
Pick fair comparisons if you want to debate this, such as if you compare basically the same size pistol to the Glock 17 (albeit slightly larger frame thickness) - the Glock 21 - both have about 4.5" barrels and the Glock 17 9mm is 17+1 capacity while the Glock 21 .45 ACP is 13+1 capacity. Also a 1911 in 9mm is 10+1 capacity VS a 1911 in .45 ACP of 8+1.
The average shots fired in self defense for non LEO's is 3. I said that right - THREE. AGAIN - The number of shots fired by a civilian in self defense is 1-5 shots, and there's very few instances of defensive encounters going beyond that. My point is that having a capacity of pretty much every 9mm pistol as well as every .45 ACP pistol, is enough. Having 18 rounds instead of 14 rounds is at the bottom of the list of things I need in a defensive encounter, and my logic is to have the best 5 rounds that I can because generally it's within these 5 rounds that everything is going to happen.
Do you want ammo that is ineffective or do you want ammo that is very effective? This question goes beyond 9mm VS .45 ACP, it's a general question and something that I feel is more important than the outlier incidents of getting into a gunfight with an entire gang of people and needing 17+1 rounds. Personally I feel like if you put yourself into a situation like that, you have probably failed at all other aspects of self defense training. I will say this to you kids with this mindset (knowing that I do have a lot of LEO subscribers - so not to you guys) YOU ARE NOT A COP, stop obsessing with capacity above all else.
My point of this video irregardless to 9mm VS .45 ACP, is that you should think about the effectiveness of your ammo choice/caliber choice more than capacity. I have done a lot of ballistic tests, and a lot of research and no - pistols are not all the same in being all ineffective, there are differences. And yes, pistols can stop threats with body shots, and yes - caliber and or ammo selection matters a lot.
That's why I carry 10mm.
From one gun channel to another, you have some good points. Though capacity is always an argument point. 9mm bullet technology has just gotten so good, that it can effectively stop most threats that people would come across, just like 45 would. Though with the 9mm, you have that added capacity in the event you find yourself in a situation where you need more ammo.
Prepare for worst case scenario, not most likely scenario.
That said, im a 1911 guy. 185gr +p is just a monster of a round.
Bro I feel like someone should tell you, out of concern, that trolls in internet comment sections are not any reason to put this much effort into a comments section or defense of your worldview. I'm a fan of the Yankee Marshal and he says things I WILDLY disagree with and has said things about certain other prominent people I disagree with, but I 1. Never complained about him or his worldview nor did I jump to the defense of people he seems to hold both due and undue grievance with. 2. Whenever Vintage Warfare, who I am also a fan of, wiped his ass with the Yank, I also didn't get all up in his comments section. I know I'm saying I'm not being a troll and that doesn't help you out, but basically what I'm saying is don't pay attention after a certain point.
Draw a line with the complainers and after a point (should IMHO be a very short period of time) stop bothering with them. Tbh bothering with comments at all in most people's cases probably isn't even worth it.
That's the argument I've had as .40 guy forever lol You could have a 60 round drum on your 9mm, does you no good if BG has a more powerful caliber, you'll never make it that far to utilize it. lol .45+p, .40 and 10mm are all my 3 carries. Dont own a single 9mm, never will, I'll pass.
@@joehosier6187 And that's exactly what I do. I have a feeling that you think I have 100 comments and respond to them all. I respond to maybe 10 trolls per video out of hundreds of trolls and ignore most. I hope that puts this into perspective.
I tried so hard to make this video right, lots of harsh shadows and lighting, some camera shake and of course the ammo I bought that was listed as Nosler bullets with both but turned out to be an XTP with the .45 ACP. I just went ahead and filmed this anyways with possibly skewed results because I had to. I wish people would understand that the budget is super tight and once my monthly supplies are purchased, that's it for the month. It's also why I get upset when people are like "just buy a new Garmin chronograph for $600". I cannot buy a new chronograph or random guns on demand, I have just enough to keep putting out the two videos I put out every week.
Your stuff is always done well, sir. We appreciate the conscientious effort keeping us informed so that we can make sound decisions when purchasing food for our red hawks, pythons, horses, bulldogs or other pets.
Best handgun ballistics channel on this platform bar none. Keep on keepin' on.👍🙏❤💯
You are appreciated,Sam.Great info as always.Shield .45 is part of my rotation.
Do you not have the white covers today? Milk jugs spread across the sensors on the posts work damn near as well.
I like your videos. Keep up the good work. I don't have but two channels I watch on ballistics. You are one of them. You seem real and I like that. I appreciate your input!
I don't hate on any caliber because I don't want to get hit by any of them ...
Because of that you should hate every caliber!😄
👍😉
@@Gieszkanne , I should rephrase that ..
I don't want to get hit by a Crossman BB gun. Or a .500 S&W mag.
That's not something hardened gang bangers think about.
That is faulty logic. How badly you want or don't want any particular caliber, how much you don't want to be shot, has nothing to do with that caliber's strength or weakness, advantages/disadvantages. Every caliber is what it is.
Taking hollowpoints out of the equation. if I had to rely on ball (fmj) ammo for self-defense, I would feel better armed with 45ACP rather than 9mm.
That was the conclusion of the Thompson-LaGarde tests.
Are there common brand sources for flat point ball ammo? I think flat point would provide a bit more shock to the target.
However, certain studies found the 9mm more "lethal" due to its higher probability of complete passthough which induces pneumothorax more rapidly. The greater cross section of the 45 causes a perceptive "harder" hit, especially on bone, which might stop the aggressor faster than ultimate death.
I consider that fewer shots taken to stop the aggression is more of a public relations aspect than objective performance, but fewer shots to stop each agressor means more shots for additional aggressors. What one can comfortably carry and shoot accurately should be the measure. Some can carry and deploy large, powerful handguns easily and others cannot, some may only be able to manage a smaller, less powerful option. Either beats begging or relying on the "good guys" to show up. Being one's own good guy is the best practice, and PRACTICE one must.
The 40 is flat nose. That’d be mine.
Flat nose gives you more penetration, not more damage. There is reason why most hardcast hunting rounds are flat nose.
Thanks for weighing in on this subject. I agree with you 100%. The switch to the 9mm in law enforcement has been more to do with the cost and, unfortunately, the inability of officers' recoil management, than performance of the caliber.
.......and don't forget a left wing media which cries custard for the perpetrator's rights !!
Right, so by that logic we should use canons because they're more effective at stopping a threat than the .45 will ever be. Because "recoil" doesn't matter right?
You and many others are too high and mightily attached to the concept of "stopping power" that you'd rather have access to more "stopping power" even if that means you miss the target, rather than having more opportunities to hit the target and make impactful shots with a mildly less (powerful) cartridge. It's just silly.
@@Xrilliam762 Such anger! Guess I hit a nerve....
@@Xrilliam762 Carry what you want, but stop trying to justify it by saying the 9mm is "just as good".
@dangerman007 LMAO where did I say that? Did you even read what I said??
Literally no where did I say that, you absolute clown.
thanks for this Sam.......well done.......So many 45ACP critics are unaware that the 45 round was actually designed (planned) to dump all it's energy INSIDE the target. Do you think it wasn't possible to engineer more SPEED out of the casing / powder ? Speed was the enemy here - the 45 was never intended to over penetrate but rather to maximize the hydrostatic shock in the target itself.......That's what made old BALL ammunition so deadly as well........
Not exactly. We can see this in the MK23 trial. The long and short is while 45 is loaded to be low pressure, when you up the speed you still end up dumping most if not all the energy in the target. And this was being done with both 230gr +p and 185gr +p+ hollow points. It’s just how the round ends up working out in reality
Hmm... higher velocity . 45 hollow points lose penetration very quickly. I think it performs better as it is.
I am surprised at how emotional some people have become over this video. I own more 9mm pistols than any other caliber, and they have their uses. But for some reason, many people have freaked out in their comments as if I said that the 9mm is worthless and no one should have one.
The point of this video was to show that while the 9mm is fine, people should stop saying that it's as effective as the .45 ACP. I have even heard people tell me on my channel that the 9mm is just as powerful as the .357 Magnum. I am here to simply say that the 9mm is fine but the .45 ACP is a tad better. The main point of my video is to shut up people who keep repeating misinformation that the .45 ACP is somehow no more effective than the 9mm.
When I use the term "9mm fanboy", this is not directed at normal people such as myself who use 9mm pistols. A person who uses 9mm (like myself who has one for home defense) and knows it's limitations is not a "9mm fanboy". A 9mm fanboy is one who can only shoot 9mm well because other cartridges hurt their weak wrists, and rather than accept that what they have is fine - they suggest it's the best or most powerful option out there to justify their own limitations.
@@GunSam well said brother. I completely agree with you and I admittedly only own 9mm pistols. That's just because I shoot them well and I only have to stock up on one caliber of pistol ammo. With the prices of literally everything now, it's hard to own and shoot multiple calibers like we used to. But thank you for what you do, it's greatly appreciated!
I had to take down one of my comments and repost it because a fanboy started crying. He could have made his own comment but mine really hurt his feelings, so he tried to hurt my feelings.😭🤣
Saying 9mm is "as effective" as 45acp doesn't mean they're saying it's "as powerful". If folks want to carry a hand-cannon that's their prerogative, the point MOST people are making is that for carry/home-defense purposes it will make no difference whether a perp is hit with a couple 9mm HSTs vs 45acp. That's all
@@JJ_SDWR Effectiveness can be measured.
There's most always, difference; hence, a reason for so many calibers...@@JJ_SDWR
In my 37 year career in a major Sheriffs Office we used a wide array of issue handguns. In pistols we issued the Beretta 92FS. SOME bad guys trying to kill our deputies were hit multiple times before the fight ended Now we had excellent firearms training and trained monthy as a units with 100 rounds each month per deputy along with annual qualification and other training. So it was not a matter of training and skill. ( Dont qualify, placed in an unarmed position given retraining, and had to pass 3 quals in a row as I recall) We went to the .45 ACP GLOCK 21 and those with small hands could be issued a GLOCK .40.SINCE THAT TRANSITION to the .45 we won every gunfight with far less rounds fired.
Thanks for your input, and it matches a lot of what I have studied. Much of this data is all about averages and 9mm does poorly with averages. There's a lot of people who like to take the outlier information to justify their caliber/cartridge choice, like "there was this one guy who took 6 rounds of .357 Magnum and kept coming" or "one guy went down with one shot of .22 LR". From all I have studied, .357 Mag was king, the .45 ACP and .40 S&W were almost as good, and the 9mm did pretty poorly and thus needed major overhaul of bullet design and power levels, which made it kind of close to .40 S&W and .45 ACP, but still not as effective.
@@GunSam I find it silly that bullet technology was only applicable to the 9mm and not ALL defense cartridges. You can be assured it did not just apply to the 9mm but all calibers that are used for defensive applications
That was a South Carolina state highway patrol officer and at the time yes he was carrying a 357mag but the load they were issued at the time was 38 special I remember the story very well have read many articles about it over years years @@GunSam
I've been there and done that from the city side of things. Good comment, brother!
100 rounds per month? That’s not a lot of training.
My favorite goofy point is that the 9mm ballistics have gotten so much better that it’s basically the same as 45 acp. As if the technology is reserved for 9mm.
I’ve been saying the same thing. Same for the .40
It is reserved for 9mm because .45 is forced to use shitty pressures. You want to know what “improved” .45 is?
Not .45 ACP.
It’s called .45 super and requires it’s own gun.
In my country you say thing like that you go to jail. Right to jail! Right ay way! No trail no nothing! We have special jail for 9mm people.
You can say FMJ vs FMJ ball.......one is sufficient as is using standard target ammunition for self defense while the other isn't even on the map. FACTS!
@@linkl_6641
Nah, that's like saying 6.5 CM is a replacement for .300 Win Mag. It's not even remotely close no matter how many smartphones and spaceships you have!
I have a HK P30 and a HK45. The beauty is that the HK45 shoots as soft as a 9mm.
Super accurate also.
Yes, it does. I have a hard time telling which shoots softer... my HK45 or USP 45. I like the HK45 for carry and USP for HD.
@@rod7944
The HK 45 and USP 45 have the recoil reduction system which takes 30% of the recoil out of them. Try one, you'll be surprised.
That recoil reduction system is incredible. My MK23 shoots about as softly as my Glock 17 Gen3; I was in love with it enough that I went out and picked up a USP9 and USP9c.
@BERSERKERNA39 I'll add... that if I could only have one HK chambered in 45 acp, it would be the HK45. I like my USP, two less rounds doesn't bother me, with added 1913 rail and way better ergonomics on the HK45. I'll never get rid of my USP, but it's more of a collectible. The HK45 is more of the do it all gun... carry... nightstand gun.
Best practical gun channel on YT. Great job.
The point of this video was to simply push back at the stupid notion that the .45 ACP is a terrible cartridge with less capabilities than the 9mm. People have been commenting on my channel for years that the 9mm is "just as powerful as the .357 Magnum" or "The government said 9mm was the best most powerful cartridge that exists".
All I was doing here was stating legitimate information and facts, yet I keep being accused of being obsessed with the .45 ACP because I am obsessed with "two world wars" and all this nonsense, lots of repeated rhetoric that are simply gaslighting terms used by young people as an attempt to justify their choice of caliber. No one needs to justify anything, I was just giving information here.
Also, I do not carry or use the .45 ACP or 9mm as my main defensive calibers because there are better options than these two. From time to time I will carry a 9mm though. I am informed on facts and limitations of the caliber so ammo selection is very much key when I do that. And why am I giving all this information?
Because I have been doing handgun ballistic tests for about 15 years and have seen a lot of consistency and tendencies for both cartridges, so I thought I would share that information. I also have been studying the subject of 9mm VS .45 ACP for just as long. I expected a little pushback from the "9mm fanboy" crowd, but not all these complete psychological meltdowns I have been dealing with. It's weird and concerning. It's also quite annoying and pointless in an adult conversation. Stop it.
🎉SIR, I thank you for taking the time to show people what is what in the physical, and also putting everything on the table as it “IS”. THERE IS SUCH THING AS RIGHT, AND WRONG. YOU ARE 100% CORRECT! I dont even make the argument that 9 is just as good as 357😮how sttupid can one be? Velosity is waaay more in 357, and weight… thats insane, one would think this. My fav is a 10 mil.. 165 grains going upwards of 1500 fps, is my happy medium. Ive settled for a beretta96 , can take all the pressure of plus p, not too short @4.9 inches. .. buffalo bore .40 s&w offers a 155gr bullet going 1300fps.. uh what 9 can do it? 357 mag has a 147 gr going 1250fps….. catch my drift? In 45, the 185gr goes 1300 fps😂 yea… even my beloved 40 , cant match that, actually due to size, weight and velosity, thats up there with 10 mil… so guys, please listen to this guy.. hes a pro, jump on his bandwagon😂🎉
@@KerrariKors I always look at it that for every advantage of one caliber over the other, there's usually a drawback to that advantage. Like if a crackhead was charging me with a knife, would I rather have a .44 Magnum than a 9mm? You bet, but the recoil to get good with a .44 Magnum makes it a painful process. Would I rather shoot a charging bear with a 10mm 220 gr hard cast VS a 9mm 147 gr hard cast? Absolutely, however there's next to a 0 percent chance that 9mm will malfunction if I shoot it one handed while that 10mm has maybe a 25% chance of malfunctioning.
Caliber debate also comes down to power levels and handgun size too. Like in a full size handgun, a .45 ACP is better than a 9mm but in a subcompact, a 9mm will run more reliably so in that case a 9mm is better. Or on the flip size, maybe a 9mm is better in a subcompact than a .357 Magnum snub nose due to the .357 Magnum's recoil, but if you go even smaller to a true pocket 9mm like a Diamondback DB9 VS an alloy .357 Magnum, the .357 Magnum is better because now you are at the point of such low handgun mass that the 9mm can jam, while the .357 Mag snub won't. Reliability with pain is better than unreliability that has better control.
There's so many more things that can go into this conversation, and I like that. It's so much more fun than dealing with angry 20 somethings that a all "durr durr, 9mm better" and have some John Wick scenario playing out in their head as if they are that good and no possible drawbacks to their choice can happen.
What caliber do you carry?
@@timguenthner6434 It's slightly complicated but generally a .327 Federal Magnum revolver and a 5" M&P in .40 S&W. That being said I do also use a 5" M&P 9mm as *one of* my house defense guns. I normally would say no to 9mm, but I use 115 gr +P+ ammo and it's a 5" barrel so it gets about 500 ft lbs of energy. I would feel under-gunned with some of my other 9mm pistols that I test ammo with.
I don't use my .45 ACP as a defensive gun but that's mostly due to it being a Glock and I feel way more comfortable with my M&P's because they have been more reliable and have better ergonomics. If I had an M&P in .45 ACP I would for sure either carry it or use for home defense. At the end of the day the real truth is all calibers are pretty good if you select the right ammo. It's just that some calibers like the .45 ACP are just a tad more forgiving and will work well with or without HP expansion.
@GunSam I also think it's what the shooter shoots best with. I have shot 45 I don't like it. I don't shoot as well with it. I'm not sure that training would change that. I own a 40 s&w and loved it until I shot 9mm. Im enjoyed your video. Anyone who says 9mm is anything close to a .357 mag is not in their right mind.
A 9mm has to expand to be a .45, but a .45 will never shrink to be a 9mm.
Underwood Max Expansion/Norma MHP 9MM out of a 5"+ barrel tend to expand to 0.75"+, more powerful .380-diameter rounds (.357 SIG) expand to 0.9"+, more than .45 ACP.
@@wizkaqueefa9003 Ignoring the fact that Norma MHP is awful ammo, *if* you get that MHP to expand, you do realize MHPs are also made for .45, yes? That same logic carries over to HSTs, Hornady Critical Defense/Duty, etc. The same rule applies to any hollowpoint. If you reach or exceed target velocity, you get proper expansion. Expansion from a .45 will be bigger than 9.
I pick 9mm simply for capacity, personally. I like the security of more shots on tap, and many people have been put in the dirt with it. Same with .45. They are both adequate.
But let's not pretend that, ammo to ammo, 9 will ever expand bigger than .45. It's simple math. Bigger diameter=bigger hole.
@@CrashRacknShootThe .45 ACP Norma MHP doesn't expand to the degree the 9MM MHP expands, which is pathetic given a 0.1" advantage in bullet diameter to begin with. If you want an actual "good" expanding .45 ACP JHP, compare MHP to something like Federal Punch 230 grain, which expands to about 0.8"-0.9" & still penetrates past 12".
@@CrashRacknShootPersonally, I pick 15+ 1 rounds of .357 SIG or .40 S&W with a 22-round magazine as a spare sitting in the car. Better terminal effect than 17+1 9MM rds.
@wizkaqueefa9003 do you just read about three words of a reply and then respond from there or something?
My shooting buddy and I both carried 9mm 1911s for quite a while, but we shoot steel hangers a lot and the saw that the .45 hit them noticeably harder. Much more swinging. We both carry .45 1911s now.
The 9mm is a fine cartrige and I'll never knock it, but the .45 is my EDC.
Would you rather get punched in the shoulder by a 115 lb. Lightweight boxer or by Mike Tyson? You can’t ignore physics.
Also, 9mm is not the only ammo that has gotten better technologically, as someone said earlier.
You’re spot on, Sam. Thanks for all your research.
Lmfao someone doesn’t know physics. That’s why they use ftlbs to measure. Probably comes down to shot placement biology.
Those that say “you can’t ignore physics” are often the ones that don’t understand physics.
So stupid.
Id rather not get shot. And ill take bullet over 2.
Appreciate your effort at a controlled and unbiased test.
Sam your videos are very much appreciated and valuable for practical people.
I was a firearms and tactics instructor for nypd and know instructors from a few different departments and I can tell you 9mm is used because it’s a light recoil and easy controllability it is easier to get non shooters to be able to pass a basic qualification. 40cal, 45acp, 357 sig and 10mm are all better rounds for people stopping. Instead of training to a standard they go with an easy round to shoot
I recall in my youth NYPD would signs contracts for ammunition in two million round lots from multiple manufacturers each year. I still have some .38 Special duty ammo packaged in 18 round boxes that had been issued to the officers long ago. I suppose given current prices they have saved enough money on ammunition that rearming paid for itself many times over by now, among the other reasons you pointed out.
Yep. When women started applying in high numbers for sworn positions, large revolver rounds went away.
@@jcraigsheltonRevolvers went away after the Miami-Dade shooting in the 80s.
@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595 it helped but we still carried them in the 90’s
@@jcraigshelton Governments tend to be slow moving.
I just turned the video on and have not watched it yet, but I can say for a fact that 45 acp is much better than the 9mm. The proof is in the pudding.
Now, I will watch the video.
Carry on my friend.
This video has gotten a lot more views and comments than normal, thank you. But that being said, I have read a lot of weird comments from what I assume are non-subscribers, and most of them are very emotionally based. All this video was about is that the .45 ACP is a little better than the 9mm for stopping threats, and it's a little more consistent to perform well under adverse conditions due to it's extra mass/momentum and a little extra power. That's all this was about.
I had no idea people would freak out and go on and on about personally buying 100,000 rounds of 9mm and how it's too expensive for the regular shooter like them to buy 100,000 rounds of .45 ACP.....or how all 9mm pistols hold 20+ rounds while all .45 ACP pistols hold 8 rounds maximum. Just a lot of nonsense comments over what is nothing more than a basic rundown and ballistic test.
I would like to remind everyone, that the FBI statistics still show a 7 yard average distance and 1-5 rounds fired on an average civilian defensive encounter. I am not saying it's impossible that the average .45 ACP pistol that holds maybe 10 rounds on average won't run dry if you keep shooting and missing your target, what I am saying is that the obsession about capacity for non LEO's doesn't make sense. If your fundamentals are good, you statistically don't need the typical 17+1 rounds of a Glock 17 nor do you need the typical 13+1 of a Glock 21. What you need is to shoot well, and all I am here to do is to remind you that 9mm is not the only option you have and regular civilians are not generally mandated to carry a 9mm.
That was my point. I have had it with this emotional nonsense and these John Wick/call of duty fantasyland comments and I am done responding to them. Carry on at your own risk.
My prediction of incoming indignation was on point. Not to mention a troll army descending upon the comments section. I sincerely hope that you start posting these features on Rumble after release at some point. Sadly the real conversation will probably remain somewhere other than here. Thanks for sharing though, even though I am generally a .40/10mm pistol afficionado I appreciate you taking time to tackle this topic.
This is the one topic guaranteed to cause serious discussion among shooters.. I see this in training schools, CCW class, at the range and in the gunstore. Everyone has an opinion and everyone will have to find out for themselves. Carrying a pistol concealed all day will teach you some things.Especially if it holds 12 rounds on 45 There is no substitute for Situational Awareness and TRAINING, after that accuracy and speed come into play. Caliber is way down the road. No two shooters are alike.
@@chrisbrowne4669 I agree with all that you shared, but concealed carry is just one carry option. I had to carry professionally in a duty holster and sadly my first employer in the field did not care to equip the patrol vehicles with a carbine or shotgun. Your sidearm is elevated to a level of importance disproportionate to it's actual utility and details like caliber, bullet weight and cartridge matter more than they should. Fortunately for me that particular employer granted us considerable discretion in the sidearm we were allowed to carry so I was able to maintain a reasonable level of confidence.
As a guntuber, you should have had the common sense brain capacity to know that this is a contentious topic. It seems you are devoid of such. And now you want to play damage control for your own failures. Life dont work that way on TH-cam old man
@@CapoKabar Contentious? If you live in a jurisdiction that limits magazine capacity and bans hollow point ammunition testing like this is easy to understand and relate to. Nothing for anyone to get bent about, just for all to understand that when your options are limited some things matter more than others. But I am sure you already knew that, right?
The hottest 9mm I've tested (was able to load before case failure) launched a 147gr pill at 1100fps out of a 4.5" barrel.
The .45 ACP..... ahh, the .45 ACP. You know, most modern handguns that are chambered in .45, AND HAVE A FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER, will safely fire the modern version of the old warhorse, the .45 super, by a simple spring swap.
The operating pressure of a standard. 45 ACP is 21,000 psi, 23,000 psi for a +p load. A well loaded .45 ACP will give you about 850fps with a 230gr pill out of a 4.5" barrel. A really hot loaded +p will give you about 950fps with the same 230gr pill out of the same barrel.
Now, a .45 supers operating pressure is 26,000 psi. This will reliably give you around 1100fps with a 230gr pill with good ammo. That puts your energy numbers over 600 ft lbs. On par with good 10mm loads and most factory .357 mag ammo.
The hottest load I can safely make for my 9mm yields just shy of 400 ft lbs.... the two aren't comparable when loaded with modern components. The only way a 9mm can be equal to a .45 is when you compare old tech with a .45 to new tech in a 9mm. Not a fair comparison in my opinion.
Ignore the stupid comments people leave. You're a subject matter expert, and people aren't out there testing firearms like you are so often. 45 ACP is a powerful round that's been proven for a long time. Foot pound energy is going to win. 9 MM is good enough for most purposes.
It is more powerful, but as you said 9mm works.
Sam sees trends on this channel and comments. He's fair in addressing the myths and accusations. It's part of the testing.
Anything works if you hit it in the right place 😅@@korlilkatana7653
Yeah, people can argue on here all day long, but the basic laws of physics haven’t changed. And basically everything you just talked about involved basic laws of physics. Good video
If caliber truly didn't matter, Cape Buffalo hunters would be using 22 long rifle. Caliber, velocity, energy, bullet design, and shot placement all matter.
so undeniably true
Not testing for hunting here.
@John_Malloy So feel free to carry a 22 long rifle. I am pro freedom. Stopping an animal is stopping an animal. A drugged up animal intent on killing you is tougher to stop than a whitetail, but you do you.
@John_Malloy Actually he does a lot of tests for hunting ammunition and dangerous animal defense, but you do you. I support freedom. Stopping a 200lb animal is stopping a 200 lb animal, we just aren't quite as hairy.
@@brianmoore1164 For SD breaking contact is a win.
This is one of the best gun channels I've stumbled across over the years. Solid content. Keep up the good work!!!
Not sure why people continually talk about how "the 9mm is better, and performs better that's why the government went with 9mm". There's a ton of sources on this subject, so I will condense it all into an overview of everything that happened from the 1986 Miami shootout through decades of FBI ballistic testing.
Basically, the FBI tried a lot of cartridges, and found that the 10mm and even the .45 ACP was too much recoil for average agents to shoot well, so the .40 S&W was invented and that helped some with ability to shoot a higher caliber a little better, so the FBI used the .40 S&W for a good 25 years. Then a lot of agents of more recently couldn't score well with .40 S&W either.
By the time 2015 rolled around, all of the bullet and cartridge technology that ammo companies had been working on from the 1980's until 2015, made the 9mm be able to check off all the boxes of penetration, expansion percentages - all while being easier to handle for agents, a lot of them DEI hires. At the end of the day, this improved 9mm performance was _almost as good_ as the .40 S&W and .45 ACP, at less of a cost to them because 9mm is cheaper.
A lot of people take what the FBI did and subsequent copying by other law enforcement agencies due to the 9mm's improvement, as meaning that the 9mm was somehow now better than other cartridges. It's not.
The 9mm has been worked on and tweaked so much to make it almost as good as other cartridges. Think about that for a moment. There has never been any legitimate studies that show the 9mm performing better than .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 10mm Auto, .357 Magnum/Sig and the list goes on and on. The 9mm always ranks as a little bit less effective than most other choices.
I have heard every conceivable excuse from people as to why they chose the 9mm, from price of ammo to follow up shots to capacity. And while these are true things, a person should ask themselves how many rounds do they actually train with, is saving insignificant amounts of money important to them, do they really need 18 rounds when FBI stats say the average civilian defensive encounter is 3 shots, do what they see in John Wick movies really happen in every defensive encounter with them needing to stop 14 armed attackers?
All I have ever done with testing and research is to tell the truth, dig deeper and tell the truth. What I have discovered with doing this, is a lot of people don't actually want the truth, they prefer justification for their own choice. I don't carry 9mm or .45 ACP so I don't have a dog in this fight, despite being accused of having one. I just wanted to relay things I have researched, and what I have researched is contradictory to what people have been telling me for a long time, so I thought I would make a video about this.
An old testing back in the day of all the military calibers of the day, I believe it was an American test. The .455 Webley with a slower bullet was a little more effective over the .45ACP. Then again, the tests were with standard bullets of the time and if I am not completely mistaken, the targets were pineboards on one test and live animals on another.
I want to make a mention here. I do not delete comments for merely disagreeing with me, that's the truth. That being said, not one person who agreed with me had their comments deleted, and every single one of the dozen or two deleted, were from people who disagreed with me.
This has nothing to do with disagreeing with the subject matter, as there's still many disagreeing comments. The reason why it's only the people who disagree with me with deleted comments, are because in literally every one of those comments, they included in either the main comment or reply to my reply, gaslighting nonsense, name calling, calling me dumb and whatnot, stuff like that. You just won't really see back and forth responses like that when people agree on a subject. So it's not the disagreement that gets them deleted, it's their behavior alone.
For years I have been accused of deleting comments for merely disagreeing, people saying "Gun Sam deleted my comment because I disagreed" which is not true. It's what they didn't mention, their behavior, is what got them deleted. Example might be "Gun Sam, the FBI stats show you are wrong" - would I delete that comment? Absolutely not. What a lot of these trolls will not say is the whole story, here's a whole story - "Gun Sam, the FBI stats show you are wrong", then I reply "No, I am right and you are wrong because etc ect etc". Then they come back "do some research buddy, nothing you said was correct, you don't know anything that you are talking about, such an dummy, your mom really messed you up"
Then I delete the comment, block them if it's rude enough, only to have rumors that I simply delete comments for not agreeing with them.
One more point in favor of 9mm is that lower recoil causes less flinch in newer shooters, speeding the learning curve and encouraging more practice. Most critical components in a gun fight are shooters attitude, confidence and competence - notice caliber is not in this list. I think it is critical for each individual to determine what they can carry and most effectively shoot.
@@GunSam I think you do great work with your videos. They are very informative and you explain what you do. All the haters can make their own videos if they want and that is that. You have good set of tests, and you go far beyond the range many others even remotely try to shoot their pistols. You shoot great at distance. Only very active guys and gals doing this can match it. Keep the vids coming . :)
I see the point being made and I agree that .40 and .45 are more powerful and bigger projectiles than 9mm. What I will say is yea 9mm is cheaper, easier to shoot, and with modern ammunition meets all the requirements to be a perfectly acceptable round for self defense I’d argue 9mm is better than .40 and .45 cause it strikes a perfect balance making just about anyone able to train with it a lot, shoot it well, and for the round itself to be lethal enough to stop a fight with well placed shots. While I 100% agree that .40 and .45 outperform it ballistically what I will say is handgun rounds excluding magnum level revolver cartridges, .357 sig, and 10mm are very wimpy compared to long guns and commonly fail to stop targets fast unless hit many times or hit directly in a vital area hence why LEO and Military are trained to fire center mass until the target is no longer moving. We should keep in mind .40 S&W is still among the most popular law enforcement cartridges in America and has been for decades now many law enforcement officers needing many shots to stop bad guys occurs with .40 as well at the end of the day it is a neutered 10mm not to say it’s not a great round or to say that “9mm is just as good” cause that would be false but what I will say is that handguns in general tend to fail to produce the movie like stops or massive damage in real life that a shotgun or rifle will easily get in close quarters. I carry a 9mm Glock 19 and a 1911 commander size .45 auto so I like a bit of both in my life if I was facing a line attacker I cannot lie I’d prefer the wound diameter that a .45 would offer me over a 9mm but if I was faced by more than one guy I’d prefer the 16 rounds I have in my gun with the 9mm as opposed to the 8 in my .45 and I will say I think 9mm is the overall best handgun caliber but I 100% agree there are many handgun calibers that outperform it from a ballistic standpoint.
Love how this pops up on my feed after getting an XD 45. Having worked as a medical professional in a crime ridden city, I saw a handful of gunshot wounds, and that sealed the deal on why I shoot higher calibers. Is 9mm effective? Yeah. But higher calibers resolve the issue faster and legally speaking, use less rounds which makes YOU as the shooter less likely to serve jail time. So I let people carry what they want, but I'm playing this game on easy mode
What bullet types do you usually see? Criminals generally can only afford fmj
@jason200912 I was not a surgeon, so I cannot give you an answer. What I will say is using logic, cheap ammo is probably what most criminals would be using, definitely agree with that. But I don't even know who they were shot by most times. Could have been police, armed citizen, or even another criminal.
But I saw both pistol and rifle caliber holes, and that was enough to make my decision on what to carry. And 45 is probably the lowest I will go on a CC
@@BlueJayWaters cops only run fusion/gold dot on rifles and gold dot on pistols. If theyre broke then perhaps they might run fmj on rifles?
Occasionally they might go federal hst for pistol if their pd has a contract but usually they dont
@@jason200912i can tell you that miss matched ammo in one magazine from one firearm is common in street shootings. They tend to load with whatever they can get their hands on.
Wait, you bought an XD... in 2024... and it's. 45? Have you ever heard the phrase, "two wrongs don't make a right"?
Does the place you bought it from accept refunds? :/
My pocket carry is a .380 LCP but my truck gun shoots .45 ACP.
Ignore the idiots.
😂
My budy has been in law enforcement for over 20 years. He said that subjects shot with the .40 almost never survived. A few years ago, his agency switched to 9mm, and now most suspects that are shot survive.
I've heard that as well. Also in the footage I could find confirmed as .40 S&W in police footage, always showed the same thing. A double tap and a screaming bad guy on the ground. The average 9mm footage is like 8 hits before they go down, slight grumbling. Huge difference
@@GunSamcould that be because 9mm is just easier to shoot faster?
I couldn't agree more.
@@Tom-cp6yj After the cops went to the 9mm they were the ones that came up with " dump the mag " . Because the nine was not doing what it was put up to be
9mm is C H E A P.
That's what its biggest appeal is.
And it is probably one of THE lowest denominators in combat cartridges that non-shooting,( i.e. inexperienced), small stature individuals can handle well under stress.
Experienced shooters and larger stature, stronger individuals who know the difference between a mediocre threat stopping cartridge and better or superior threat stopping cartridge, tend to pick larger calibers and sometimes even larger calibers that ALSO have high velocity.
In this category is where .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .40 S&W, 10mm, .44 Special, .44 magnum and .357 magnum tend to reside.
The premise behind this, is that experienced shooters know that if they can launch a big chunk of metal, at either high or moderate velocity, at a threat?
The bigger chunk of metal will do more damage to bone, blood vessels, and organs.
Which will STOP a threat faster than a smaller, high velocity chunk of metal can.
Whether that chunk of metal expands or even breaks apart is kind of irrelevant.
Because the bigger chunk of metal will still do even MORE damage if IT does the same.
Being of course, bigger from the start.
Stopping a threat is a pass/fail scenario. Either the threat is stopped or it is not. With modern hollow point ammo 9mm, 40, 45 and many others will generally all pass given proper shot placement. If you start talking fmj I want a 45, its proven itself a pass. The same can't be said of some other cartridges.
Hey Sam, another great video. Pretty sure I haven’t missed any of you over the years if I was a bazillion air you’d have all you wanted unfortunately I’m not thank you so much for all you do for this community. We all love you. We all appreciate what you do don’t listen to naysayers you’re a hell of a subject matter expert. I’ve been doing this as well for over 40 years and I’ve never seen someone so concise so easy to listen to well done, sir.
I have a buddy who was in combat for a very long time. He said that the newer guys all carried 9mm but he liked the .45 for the damage it did. He saw many bullet wounds. His life depended on it so I think .45acp is pretty damn good. Now he didn't care what anyone carried. He said he would trust his life with the .45 and to me that says A LOT!!!!!!! I think the 10mm is the best way to go but what the hell do I know. I have never seen combat and most likely never will. I have zero credibility.
He wasn't wrong about 45acp. 10mm is versatile. Surely a couple of capable loadings would get his approval, . @@jamesoncross7494
There's no doubt about it and your test confirms it , the .45acp is undoubtedly more powerful . The Gel test clearly demonstrates the difference and the impact on that steel plate shows the .45 striking harder . Plus the numbers are on the .45acp side . Great test Gun Sam , good job !
The U.S. military used .45 caliber sidearms from 1873 until 1985. That speaks to me given what was expected of these handgun cartridges over the long course of their use.
The 45 ACP was designed to mimic the performance of the 45 Colt, another dual purpose cartridge. It worked splendidly. Prior to WW2, the military cavalry was deemed. obsolete so the 45 ACP became solely an anti-personnel round. Standardization with NATO caused the DOD to drop the 45 ACP in favor of the 9 mm, a less effective cartridge in FMJ, as per the rules of The Hague Accords.
@@PassivePortfolios You know your history! Cavalry use was one of the most influential reasons why the .45 caliber sidearm was chosen early on. A sidearm had to hit hard to do what was needed in that role. Thanks for sharing!
@@hillbillyscholar8126 Worth noting that in the late 19th century the U.S. military actually temporarily left the .45 Colt as stamdard, and went to .38 and .32 caliber sidearms for a time, and found them to be lackluster in combat (Philippine War and Moro Rebellion), subsequently requesting a new .45 caliber service cartridge.
So yes, from c. 1873 till the adoption of the Beretta in the '80s, the military utilized .45 caliber sidearms, but to buttress your point further, we should remember that during that time they abandoned the .45 caliber once, and it worked out terrible.
@@LibertysetsquareJack Indeed they did. I have to confess that the .45 Colt is one of my two favorite handgun rounds, the other being the .357 Magnum. Both were created for a particular purpose, as was the .45 ACP. They have all aged quite well. No need for a century of determination to make any of them good enough, they were all that way from the start.👍
@@hillbillyscholar8126 Agreed. All three are excellent cartridges. No need to keep experimenting when you've hit quintessence ;)
What impressed me here and I think you touched on a tiny bit is that the 45 with much larger frontal area going slower passed through those barriers, cloth MDF, gel, and MDF while it penetrated the same as 9. Puts to rest the argument that penetration is an issue with 45. The true FUD which is not from the 10mm .40, 45 crowd but the 45 is dead crowd.
Shot placement is key. End of story. That being said i like both. I hope either will save my life if trouble finds me. If you got a 9, 40, 45 or even a 22 handgun make sure its working properly and make sure you are a damn good shot with it. Credits for the 45, i feel more comfortable carrying one for big cat and black bear protection. However the 9 has greater range, capacity, cheaper, and works better in smaller guns. Both are great defense choices. The real issue is those 357 mag nerds.
One thing about larger bore diameters is that you can achieve more energy at lower pressures. Just look at shotguns!
I’ve scrolled through all the comments and no one has mentioned TWO WORLD WARS
30-06 and 303 and 8mm mauser and 6.5 jap and 6 5 carcano was 2 world wars
The Lord's caliber!!!!
During the 1st World War armies still used Cavalry. What would you rather use kill a charging HORSE with, 115 grains of LEAD or 230 grains of LEAD?
@@CarlGreisheimer-d3h neither, you're supposed to use your 30-06, 303, 8mm for that.
Modern bullet technology makes 9mm a _viable_ self defense round. But the same bullet technology that has made 9mm bullets better has also made .45 ACP bullets better. All holes are bad, but bigger holes are badder. Bullets work by causing blood pressure to drop below the point where consciousness can be maintained. All other things being equal, the bigger hole gets you there faster. The faster the fight ends, the better your chance of walking away from it in one piece. I carry big bores when I can.
45 caliber with 568 ft. Lb of energy ? I didn't realize that was typical. I didn't think 45 would push a bullet 1200 FPS
I like your argument though. Foot pounds of energy versus momentum.
Usually after watching a bullet comparison with a lighter bullet having a significantly higher foot pounds, I will calculate and compare their respective momentums to balance things out (bullet weight times speed)
Today the 45 has the edge and momentum and energy
Good points on the 9mm vs. .45 discussion. I don't get too wrapped up in calibers debates much anymore, but I do carry both. With that said, if I HAD to pick getting shot with a 9mm or .45 (both heavy for caliber and similar bullet design), I'd pick the 9mm every time. Of course, I'd just rather not get shot.
Gun Sam, I have watched a few videos before. I subbed because of how you approached this subject. Thank you for your commonsense talk. Keep 'em coming!
You do a good job with the videos and I appreciate the content. Some people are always going to complain.
Simple math of the FMJs shows the circular hole produced by the 45 “.453” compared to the hole produced by the 9 mm “.357” has 60% more surface area. Seems to me a better chance to hit something vital.
Good shooting. I do belive the 45 is a better defense round, but the best round is thd one you shoot well. I do have a friend that did two tours in the GWOT, issued the M9 in 9mm. He did use more than a few times. When he discharged he got a Glock in .45 ACP, said never again depending on 9mm for stopping power. (I grew up in the time of .357 or 1911 45 were the most common)
I don't even own a .45, at this point in time. But the wider 45 caliber bullet, even at a slower velocity than 9mm, will cut, tear, and do more tissue damage than 9mm. Size does matter, sometimes. Thanks, Sam. 👊👍👍🇺🇸
Shot placement is number 1. However, I think the fact that most people agree that 25 acp is too small/weak and the fact that people use high quality +p hp's in their 9mm proves that people care about diameter and energy as well.
If people care about bullet size and energy, then 45 having more of both than 9mm means that all other things being equal, 45 is more effective. 10mm even more so. The problem is that all other things are not equal. The real question is; is the additional effect worth he disadvantages compared to 9? For myself 9mm is a good middle ground especially with small pistols but I do think the 45 has more effect on target with equal shot placement. Once in awhile that additional effect might make a difference.
I think the real advantages of 9mm are a little more subtle than most online content would suggest. The cost of ammunition, and small very concealable handguns are the two most relevant differences. Differences in magazine capacity is another good point that most people make. Beyond that, most of the stuff about ballistics is a little contrived and skewed. I'm not the biggest .45 guy, but it's simply a fact that with proper choices in ammo, .45 is more likely to stop an attack if you hit your target.
@@rod7944 Yeah, good point. Can't believe I didn't think about that.
Many years ago when I got into pistol shooting, I started with a 9mm. Sometime in the 80's a guy named Evan Marshall did a fairly comprehensive study on the difference between .45ACP and 9mm in actual shootings producing one shot stops. The 230gr FMJ and the 115 JHP produced 66% and 67% effectiveness. Pretty dang close. Today, with improved bullet design and .45 bullet HP, that margin opens up. Shooting a 9mm, you must figure on multiple hits to do the job, therefore the need for large capacity mags. Sure, a 9mm is pretty good, a .45 ACP with a good HP or copper hybrid like the Underwood is better. Recoil is an issue for some people, that's why the .40 S&W was replaced for DEI governed agencies. I shoot all three calibers, I hand load all three, I cast and powder coat all three. Yep, significant difference on impact energies. Regardless of caliber choice, get good at hitting what you aim at with multiple hits. You'll need that extra capacity. Velocity matters, the .357 magnum outperformed everything, it's not a current favorite for carry. It came in at 95% one shot torso hit stops. That makes a viable argument for the .357 Sig, though expensive cartridges and more recoil is a deterrent for many. If I had to pick just one it'd likely be the .45 followed by a .40, oddly enough, my current EDC is a 9mm for most days. They all will work, know the limitations and effectiveness.
My logic is I have seen some of the best premium defense grades bullets fail to expand on various shots in every cakliber. I hedge my bets with the .45 because if ammo fails to expand, at least you still have the .45 effect.
Also, if your attacker is wearing body armor, the 45 hits harder through armor. It won't penetrate, but the impact will be much heavier, and it will hurt a lot more. It's one of the reasons why LAPD officers were allowed to purchase. 45s after the North Hollywood Bank Shootout. That same effect most likely saved lives in Taylor, Texas, too. The shooter was briefly knocked out by two .45 hits to chest in spite of the fact he was wearing body armor.
GS. Always a good and interesting video. Also, I appreciate your comments on the ammo and the shooting. Thanks for sharing and take care.
Nice video, thanks.
In my personal opinion, formed over a 40 career in law enforcement, there are a few reasons departments pick 9 mm as their issue weapon/caliber of choice. First, the top brass don't know much about ballistics and go with whatever other departments do, or with whatever their in-house trainers suggest. Second, not everyone can handle the recoil of more powerful handguns so the top brass decide on a one-size-fits-all weapon/caliber combination that the smallest, weakest, least adept employees can qualify with. Third, 9 mm is cheaper and more readily available than .45 ACP, so is a blessing to budgets and procurement alike.
I was lucky enough to work for enlightened Chiefs throughout my career, in that every department I worked for had a policy which allowed each officer to use any firearm/caliber combination they wanted to - provided that it was of high quality manufacture, at least .38 Spl, and the officer could qualify with the weapon. These departments offered practice ammo in one or two calibers and anything else the officer had to buy personally. Why this latitude in weapon choice? Because one size does NOT fit all, in shoes, pants, shirts, or firearms. My favorite carry calibers were 1) .45 Colt, 2) 10 mm, 3) .45 ACP, 4) .40 S&W, 5) .357 Mag, and 6) 9mm. I carried each on duty and could find something nice to say about each.
When you said the 45 +p feels more like a magnum actually it has the energy of it with 568 fpe. Like a low end 357 mag. The quite powerful 9mm +p only had 404 fpe.
He’s tested a Buffalo Bore 9mm 115 +p+ before and it came out with 566 ft lbs of energy
An agent told me his first defence shot was above the weapon, below shoulder. The man was spun around to be easily apprehended. 45acp agency hollowpoint. He was going to purchase a 44spl revolver because he trusted the big bullet as a backup.
Having been in the medical field for over 30 years and now running radiology and cardiology at an urban hospital, if you get shot with a .22, we are discussing your care. If you get shot with a .45, you are under anesthesia going to the OR.
Not really. Surgeons care about what got struck more than what they were struck with. .45 ACP and .22 LR are both low velocity cartridges and are fairly equivalent in a discussion about the trauma kinematics.
So, who’s there informing your team of the caliber used?
@@jcraigsheltonRight, but if you get shot in a place that isn’t immediately lethal, which caliber would you rather get shot by? I don’t think this is a really interesting question.
9mm guys talk about bullet technology as if that technology isn’t available in a 45 😂
Hi Sam! To keep it simple, I use IPSC power factor as a quick and dirty comparison for M×V=E. . Assuming .45 ball does 230gr @ 850 = a 195.5 pf. A common 9mm fmj of 124 gr @ 1200fps = 148.8 pf. Considering that the 230gr .45 has twice the mass, and about 27% more in diameter, the common .45 wins hands down.
Thanks for the fine presentation!!
Not knock down power but put down power may be more accurate. Both been around a long time for a reason. Thanks for posting.
I think the terminology contributes to arguing just as much as people's lack of desire to be corrected, or change their minds is a problem. Maybe "stopping effect" or "incapacitation power" or something similar would be more clear. Certainly if someone is on their feet and become incapacitated, they "knock down" so to speak.
There's so little ballistic understanding in so much of the arguing, it's silly.
I don't understand this current movement to discredit 45acp. I don't know if it's a strange secret antigun movement or a 9mm fan boy thing, but it's ridiculous
It is a low T Revolution
It's the same people who say M1A and 20" AR's are bad rifles.
They’re operating under false assumptions about what factors actually matter. These people are the same ones who will hold capacity to be the most important attribute in handguns, and are also swayed heavily by marketing jargon and appeals to authority. I bet they also wore the mask.
@@brentharrington9235 Whait a minute their hombre! The M1A is not bad, it is just too long with too many parts, and the 20" AR is what the M193 sings in. But post Fallujah, we have to face that short long guns are what is needed, and even the 14" M4 was a bit long and did not perform for long distances such as COP Keating. The New Super 6's perform great in 12" barrels out to 1000m, so there is no more need for the limited M4 and the heavy M1A, both getting yet longer with a suppressor.
Still, 9mm is the DEI Caliber
@@miguellogistics984 I'm not saying there aren't other, newer designs that are better in different situations.
I'm just saying there's a lot of nonsense people saying that BECAUSE there are new things, the old things are no longer effective.
I mean it’s just common sense but you have crushed a lot of hearts today. 😂😂
9mm is cheaper and w/o getting political, it is a reality that there are quotas in police agencies. If an agency has a very small pool to pick from then then applicants might not be well trained or experienced with firearms. Not every agency has super tactical Rambo operators to pick from. Using 9mm requires less training to qualify, costs less, smaller grips on the guns generally and recoil is more manageable. It raises the probability of qualifying, especially with hiring quotas.
My former agency replaced the 9 mm with the 45 ACP but now it is looking at going back to the 9 mm based on cost and qualification scores. The irony is that the qualification scores went up after it switched from the Beretta 92 to the Glock 21.
Recoil of 45 ACP is pretty damn manageable too. It's not like we're talking 500 S&W or something.
The elephant in the room is that something such as a Glock 21 is physically larger, in terms of the actual firearm planform, and that's a potential problem for women with small hands.
So you can thank Feminism for most (if not all) of this "better qualification" and "recoil management" BS. That's the elephant in the room. You start getting female cops, then you start seeing all this talk about recoil. It's not a coincidence.
What's even more cringy though is guys buying into this crap. All these guys running around talking about how much recoil a 10mm Auto or 45 ACP has. No, it doesn't have undue recoil. You've been brainwashed and NLP'ed to anticipate that as the "proper" assessment because Girl Power.
@@LibertysetsquareJack We never had any complaints about Glock 21 grip size but some women complained about the Beretta 92 fat grip, which was sacrilege to the reservists who worshipped it.
@@LibertysetsquareJack Bingo!
Cost doesn't really matter in self defense Because that parameter would mean 22lr automatically wins.
Just hitting steel with 115 vs 230 grain tells me about all I need to know, even if it isn’t backed up by tests, you can hear and see a difference
Another excellent presentation of the practical experience these calibers offer, thanks. 😊
I had my choice in years with the TX DPS. I had a 45 Sig P220. I was very attached.
My time with Houston PD convinced me that my .45 1911 was the one to carry.
Lol really decided to kick the wasp's nest with this one, heh?
😄
If I was an auto pistol guy, I’d be a .45 guy. It’s kinda the perfect blend of power and shootability, and in the case of 1911s I shoot them better than anything aside from like target .22s or 6” revolvers. To be honest, I wish I trusted myself with the manual of arms of an auto mostly because of how impressed I am with the .45s I’ve shot and how they treat targets.
I’m not and have never been a cop or soldier or anything else, I shoot a lot but have no ‘real’ training. I’ll be scared to death, panicked, scattered, shaky and all-around compromised if I ever have to use a handgun to defend myself, the last thing I need is to have to remember safeties, malfunction clearing, a light trigger, etc., so like you I’m a .38 +p revolver guy, likewise in the woods I’ll carry a 4.2” .357 GP100 or 5.5” .44 RedHawk, because a bear or moose is arguably scarier than a crazy crackhead. Great vid, great explanation.
.45's do shoot pretty good. Most of the standard pressure ammo I shoot feels to me, like the same recoil as a 9mm, albeit with a tad more muzzle jump. It's how I spot people on here that have never shot one lol. For whatever reason they imagine the recoil to be so severe that you cannot make a follow-up shot, ever.
I think this was an excellent video with common sense explanations. My current carry gun is a 9mm because I needed something in a particular size that didn't work for any .45acp guns I had. As a LEO I carried 9mm and .45acp and I like both but as you pointed out, they are not equal for the reasons you laid out.
Hope you have a great Thanksgiving Holiday!
The thing about mass and momentum that really matters is relative scale. A .45 ACP bullet will not penetrate a granite block; and a 9mm will not be deflected by a toothpick. It is the relative size of deflecting elements of the human body that the bullet encounters in its path that matters, when compared to the mass and momentum of the bullet.
A 9mm can have the same momentum as a .45 ACP bullet - momentum is, after all, just mass times velocity. But bullet mass is largely invariant, whereas velocity is highly variant. Combined with the relative size of obstacles to bullet travel within the human body - not rabbit bodies and not bison bodies; human bodies - a 9mm is far more likely to be deflected by those obstacles than a bullet twice its weight, and will lose velocity and resultant momentum much faster than will the .45.
Just as with recoil, pistol grip size, etc. it is the scale of the human body relative to the bullet that matters in determining such things as bullet path and depth of penetration - and bigger, heavier bullets are just better than smaller, lighter bullets at maintaining their path, and at leaving a hole through which blood can exit from the body.
The .45 ACP would not have been kept in use by our military for as long as it has been (still in use) if it were ineffective. And there's anecdotal truth in the saying: "Those wounded with a 9mm go straight to the ER; those wounded with a .45 go straight to the morgue." Such aphorisms arise from observations over many years by those who observe outcomes on the front lines of emergency medicine.
Good video, and good explanations as always. Thanks for the dependably informative work.
Thanks Sam great video. I would love to see you continue with 9 mm versus 45 comparisons using different hollowpoint ammunition and the exact same test medium(that was eye-opening and fantastic) and I would think people will enjoy seeing you continue to include different ball ammo as well, maybe some of the Gucci boutique FMJ that’s a little bit hotter from Buffalo bore or Underwood. And some of the flat nose FMJ too…. that would be interesting shot alongside the different hollow points….. I really enjoyed this video. I was issued at 9 mm in the early 90s and then we carried 45s for 20 years and then they went back to 9 mm, like you said because of cost.
Re: Law Enforcement choice of 9mm. Cost, yes, but also retreat. They're recruiting dregs that couldn't handle 45 acp and, of recent history, 40 S&W. They attempted to use the advent of 30 Super Carry because the dregs (in many cases) can't even handle 9mm. Fortunately, that experiment failed.
One other note: State Troopers are often operating alone. They need to end the threat immediately. Almost from the start, their weapons were either 1911's or 357 Magnum revolvers. Glock 21's (45 acp, 13 round capacity) are their primary sidearm today...
Thanks for another Great Video Sam! Very well done. Lots of Valuable Information. & Awesome Shooting. 👍🇺🇸
If bullet technology has improved 9mm so much, it has obviously done similar for .45
I’ve heard these arguments for years, especially w/regard to the thirty-eight in my day. My OIS proved the .38 we had to be more than capable of ending the threat. When we transitioned to the Glock, the .45 was rejected due to the size of the grip and some of the smaller women on the department. My EDC in retirement is a 340PD loaded w/110 grain +P for better recoil control. Impressive accuracy from distance.
The U S Army developed the .45 auto in response to the .38 used in the Phillipines not being a man stopper. The .45 was designed to take a man down no matter where he was hit. The argument goes way back to the original service pistols, the Navy always chose a .36 or .38, the Army always specified . .44 or .45. Even before revolvers in 1836 it was true in single shot arms. If capacity bothers you learn and practice tactical reloads.
SAM - OUTSTANDING video!!
Huge thanks as I was called a fud yesterday for my 45 collection even though I have other calibers 😅
Your explanation is spot on - momentum is something people tend to overlook altogether.
I can't wait to see the comments and hear about all the 9mm fanboy hate mail 😂😭
This is a favorite video now - awesome!
Fudds have the advantage of history and wisdom. They may use the label in a derogatory way, but honestly, it says more about how the view themselves than it does you...someone I'm sure they knew nothing about.
@exothermal.sprocket 💯
If you're a Fudd, then so was John Browning!
Fellow Fudd here, without apology.
Elmer Fudd was a gun guy. What's the shame in that.
Appreciate all you do!
Thanks a lot, you too!
I have gotten a lot of internet firearms "experts" chiming in on this video. While I don't claim to know everything, I do still stand by my opinion based on all the studying and testing I have done over the years.
Also - If I was gonna be honest, the reason why there are so many "9mm Fanboys" is because 80% of pistols in a gun store are 9mm, often times they are decent ones that are $225 and target ammo is like $14 a box at the same gun store. People often buy a gun, buy a box of FMJ with plans to practice, buy a box of Critical Defense, plan to test it out but don't, then assume the pistol will run fine. It probably will, but still it's not a good idea to assume.
I can all but guarantee that after they buy their 9mm pistol (or before) they use TH-cam as a research tool and more than likely they are following a lot of "Tacticool" advice instead of legitimate advice.
These people more than likely look for videos on here to justify their purchase and trash videos that do not justify their purchase, thus why I have gotten so many trolls on this video, because all the negative comments are very emotionally based. I am willing to bet that after their Tacticool research and before they even fire their new pistol, they are now an 'expert' with advice to give, such as it's 'impossible' to afford .45 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum etc because the 5,000 rounds of 9mm they say they need for regular training, is affordable but other calibers are not.
These same people may or may not fire that $14, 50 round box of 9mm target ammo within the next year, while they continue to tell you what YOU need to do and tell you how 9mm is the best cartridge that exists while repeating nonsense about other choices. At the end of the day, each one of these trolls are just one guy with one Hi-Point or Taurus that have never fired their pistol yet.
It sounds so silly, but I know it' true and you other content creators that deal with these same people know it's true too!
And before I leave, I want to say that I never said nor did I think that the 9mm is a bad choice, it can be a good choice with the right pistol and ammo selection, I was just sharing my opinion that the .45 ACP is NOT WORSE than the 9mm like is said to me day in and day out.
As a content creator who gets a lot of comments, I hear the same nonsense day in and day out that the 9mm is more powerful than the .357 Magnum or .45 ACP, and that you can't possibly defend yourself with less than 17 rounds, or 'cops choose 9mm because it's the best' (as if individual LEO's have a selection) and the comments are non stop, dozens a day. It goes on (to steal Paul Harrell's quote) at nauseum (RIP). Enough is enough. I have a right to hit back and share my opinion as much as trolls have a right to share theirs.
I agree and you make valid arguments. I am a cop and my department doesn’t issue service weapons. With that being said, I get to choose from department-approved handgun manufacturers as long as they are 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. I’ve never liked .40 and I have a few 9mm handguns. They work well, but I recently went back to a .45 ACP. I’ve always liked .45 and I generally shoot better with it over 9mm. From a LEO perspective, use what works for you and what you are comfortable with. But, take your handgun out and train with it. It is a tool that someone’s life may depend on it, possibly your own. If you don’t train with it, you’ll just be more of a liability with it.
take it easy. you know what you know. they can think what they like. i like you testing stuff, please carry on.
Ban the trolls and troublemakers. I know that is not your style but the 21st century morality, if it can be called that, empowers this crowd. It does not help that YT is trying to run off any creator that does not generate considerable ad revenue for them and channels that promote firearms in any way are among those they throttle hard to this end. Some of your content will naturally trigger those who do not have a mind stimulated by scientific evidence or hard data so outbursts will happen, but trolls and troublemakers are a different crowd. Anyway, I hope this is not the last Red Pill you administer to the audience. 👍💪❤💯
@@GunSam spot on with everything said Sam, I went away from 9mm about 16-18 years ago just because .45 acp is a better choice in an autoloader to me hands down. I honestly don't carry a semi auto much any more since I went to revolvers about 10 years ago even though I own many, I prefer a revolver for multiple reasons over a semi auto. I carry a .45 colt or a .357 because I believe as a result of all my years of testing and real world experience they are the best choices for me.
Keep up the great and informative videos regardless what the fanboys think!
Haters gonna hate, and ignorant regurgitators gonna regurgitate ignorance. Keep up the great work!
9 mm ball is pretty much a wounded but plus p hollows are pretty nasty to get hit with a big heavy 45 is certainly more effective in a situation
When your bullet is too small to be read by the chronograph. 😂
ALWAYS--THANK YOU!! Great "Real World" comparative test---Agree with your parameters--Thoroughly enjoy & appreciate all you do--Great channel ! Great videos!
Appreciate your time. Use for a rainy day.
You, sir, are absolutely correct. People over-champion the 9mm because they've allowed preference to supercede reality. It's a common issue in almost every comparison. Thanx for your input again.
If you haven’t done so already I think you should do a battle of the kings of self defense pistol rounds. 45acp vs 357 magnum!
I think he has a vast library of each separately, but head to head would be cool.
@@117rebel I did two videos called like "manstoppers" and "more manstoppers" where I compared all the 90%+ one shot stop rounds. I recall testing Federal hydrashok .45 ACP and Remington .357 Mag and others in one video
@ I need to watch it!
my 45acp handloads are within SAMMI spec and have 100 ft lbs more energy than 9mm +P ammo. 260 grain Speer 3/4 jacketed HP at over 850 fps it will punch through the skull plate on a bull moose. the kinetic impact energy on heavier bullets can be better, lighter bullets can deflect more.
Tactics win gunfights……not calibers……
Than you for sure carry a .22 LR pistol.
I pinned this because I legitimately wanted to make it a conversation. Comment section, in three, two, one....GO!
Tactics don't just start during the gun fight. You prepare yourself properly. Picking the right weapon and ammo is an obvious part of that. Most times that you have to use your weapon, it's not a moment where you have time to think a bunch. Alot of people are lucky if they have the time to get their gun and aim it. If you're trying to say tactics don't get enough credit im with you but pretending like how you prepare yourself doesn't matter is crazy. Like the guy said, you wouldn't carry a 22. for self defense to prove that point. At least I hope.
@@GunSamI think most people carry guns in TH-cam comment sections, but not in real life. For people who legitimately have their guns on them the question is Convenience or Effectiveness, or trying to find a good midpoint. 45 is better than 9, but 11-13 rounds of 9mm is better than 6-7 rounds of 45acp. That’s my non-expert opinion, but I do think it’s logical. As this is a revolver channel - yeah, if you’ve got 8 rounds max, then pick the best cartridge.
@@shanetaylor761 What I am saying is that you can carry a .45 and if you never train, it may not matter what caliber you’re carrying. Your ability to react and apply tactics you’ve trained are vastly more important than if you’re carrying a Stacatto 2011 or a Colt 1911.
First of all, I own both 9mm and .45 ACP firearms.
Saying that one cartridge is better than the other is like saying that a large flathead screwdriver is better than a small precision Phillips head. They are two different tools for different purposes.
Back in the late 1960s, I started shooting 38 special and 357 magnum. In the early 1990s, I began shooting 9mm instead of 38 special and 45acp instead of 357 magnum. For me, the 9mm was a good replacement for the 38 special but the 45acp was never a good replacement for the 357 magnum.
Very cool to see that you added the second board of MDF, that's a fun update
Ah... ya,
It's like getting struck by a bus 🚌 or a Hybred mini
I love the 45, the 40, and the 9mm. To claim that X is better than Y is ridiculous one way or the other. Better at what? Energy on target? Penetration? Capacity? Manageable recoil? Cost to benefit? Weight to carry? Sub sonic performance? Defeating barriers?
How much better? Marginally? Significantly? Exponentially? In how many factors?
How do you judge that?
Most pistol calibers are close enough in performance to not make a significant difference. The one you can afford and checks the most boxes for your use case and preference is the better choice for you.
I haven't heard too many complaints from anyone on their receiving end.
Love these new type of videos. These are awesome!
Great insight as always GunSam!
.45 > more penetration
>more stopping power
>greater effective distance
9mm > less recoil=accuracy+faster follow up shots
>higher magazine capacity
>most common handgun round
>usually more reliable
I think a .45 with +p fmj would be best suited as a hunting sidearm and would be a good gtw sidearm and the 9mm imo covers everything else
good video . awesome debate . i swap carrying both . I use underwood extreme defender with both . .45 advantage is size and advantage to 9 is less recoil so follow up shots are quicker to get back on target . both have good points but the best caliber is the one you actually train with .
I like the addition of the 2nd piece of MDF
"tWo w0rLD wARs!".
Well, there is that too...
😂😂 Love that one.
AND two "police actions" (Korea & Vietnam)
correct, the tanks, artillery, planes, bombs, rifles, all did not win the wars, the 1911 is what won the wars!
@@jjgriffin3275 Don't forget what cartridge the losing element deployed either, the 9xInadequate. Coincidence? I think not.
You touched on the attractiveness of 9mm - cheaper ammo, cheaper firearms, longer lasting firearms (as compared to .40S&W due to less pressure), and easier to shoot for females and small gents. This is why 9 mm is more attractive to decision makers.
Would you say 40 is the best of both worlds? Have the energy and mass with capacity
357sig is best of all worlds!!
( Slightly humorous)
Or you could say that the .40 was a Compromise in search of a problem .
Or to throw out a snappy one line 'er - If you decide to go bigger than 9mm , no point to only go half way .
no 10mm
Most handgun stopping power is really not that great. 45 is going to have a slight edge on a shot per shot basis. However i would not worry about it. They are both capable of stopping someone with excellent shot placement. There are many things to consider outside of "stopping power" as well, if you are your best shot with a 9mm then use that, large differences is stopping power only exist statistically between handguns vs shotguns and rifles. Use what you are comfortable with and something that is compact and light enough that you will actually carry it