Truly enjoy your videos, never had any interest in lifts but for some reason your enthusiasm and knowledge has me enthralled. Keep up the good work, and stay safe 👍👍👍
I think that kone lift actually uses an Omron VF. Kone really only use their own VFs on their ecodisc motors. But kone is one of the few companies that know how to set up a blind vf to run well. I have seen some kone mods where it levels nearly perfectly and pre-doors even quicker than an ecodisc (even better than the lift in this video!). I filmed one, might upload it later!
Old Kone mods definitely use Omron or similar blind VFs. There's a good chance that modern Kone mods use their own VFs as they seem to still be semi-intelligent.
It's just criminal that those M-Series have been modernised!! The cabs could have been tarted up but it seems the only goal of a second rate lift company is to screw the building owner for as much £££ they can get away with! This has really annoyed me!
Wow, very informative video there! I think the Kone mod is the best too. The last lifts you showed I think have been modernised the same way as the glass lift at the Maylord centre in Hereford, which was an 80's Otis, now ruined by Jacksons. It does start up painfully slowly but levels quickly which I don't really understand, then only a second or 2 later it opens its doors. Very interesting and great to know that Lester has got rid of their blind VF...! Great video Beno! Oh and Schindler M Series logic is amazing!
Schindler are my favorite company and If I own some building, I would install the Schindler 7000 with M-series fixture I don't care if my building are mid rise!! I still want a Schindler 7000 in there!
Good news: There is a 70s Evans lift in the registry office in Leicester and my father has told the building owner not to modernize it! So don't worry, I have come to the rescue to prevent old lifts still there from being modernized.
Here is a comparison from the previous M-series in the mall, to the Horrible generic lifts in the present day. M-series: -Extremley fast with perfect leveling. -No lines full of people wanting to board the lifts. -Never broke down. Generic lifts: -Slowed down too early (occasionally) -More than 5 people waiting to board the lift. -Would probably break down in a few years. -Reliability problems.
7:09 For some reason many new KONEs in my country may level quickly, but after that wait for 4-5s bef the doors open. So in the end they're not that fast.
The pre-door relay is usually present as standard. Sometimes the software setting is not enabled. You can enable it yourself in the cabinet. Menu 1, option 12, set to 1.
I've seen a lot of older lifts whose doors open quickly even though pre-doors are uncommon (at least where I live) i.e. without waiting 3-6s after leveling. Also to clarify I've realised that it's not just KONE but many other companies' (e.g. OTIS, Schindler, IFE, VM Elevator) newer lifts too that insist on such waiting, though it's less common on higher-rise lifts (so I'm thinking if this is related to any limitations in MRL technology). By the way on some KONEs you can hear the lift's brakes being applied halfway through this waiting period, whereas on the other hand many OTIS lifts in my university apply the brakes when the doors are opening instead (without the need to wait after the lift levels, but with slower though not blind-VF slow leveling)
You are the first person to notice this other than me. They re-engineered the Schindler lifts at my old work (sorry can't remember to what), the net result was exactly as you said it was slower while coming to a stop, we all had to wait longer. And to make matters far worse they were less reliable in the end... There must be some good lift salespeople around. What got me was the quality of the Schindler equipment they removed looked really good and easy to fix if it broke only to be replaced by what looked like junk to me. Anyway, I tend to hate new things so I am biased..perhaps.
I have a modernized direct drive Otis at work and it levels as good as the Schindler M series with the exception that there is a 2 second delay between the stop and the doors beginning to open. If you are really OCD though you can mash the open button and the door will open sooner.
Well I do have a good little catch phrase that goes with what you mean sometimes it does and sometimes it doesnt and this falls under the it doesnt side
I think you can buy a Schindler 7000 with M-Line Fixture or also Otis Skyrise for a Mid Rise building most just don't because it's too expensive compared to a Schindler 5500 or Otis Gen 2
2:12 Unfortunately it appears that blind VF has been added to my country's (Singapore) subway/metro trains too (East West & North South Lines), following the resignalling project from the Westinghouse fixed-block signalling to Thales' SelTrac CBTC. Thus the trains now take ~10s longer to brake & stop at each station, and with up to 33 stations per line that's up to ~5.5min more travelling time
I don't think a train can have a blind VF. A train automation system would not rely on just speed reference points without a tacho. The only train I could think off with a blind VF is the little cable pulled train to the car park at Frankfurt airport. Also the Naples funiculars are blind VF and take ages to stop at a station.
Relay controllers are more reliable. When it’s run by a computer or whatever it’s more likely to get confused and screw itself up. I may be wrong as I am not an expert on elevators/lifts.
It really depends. Those thyseenkrupp twin lifts Ben filmed was computer software controlled, had no relay logic whatsoever. And it was reliable for him (and the fact that the computer had "military grade" software makes me think that computers are not that bad)
@@duhkjhwifyyhed each kind of elev/lift logic have its own problems, relays have a crap load of arcing which wear down the contacts, and solid state can be a real PITA to service if the fault lies deep down in the circuits.
There was a big issue with the previous LED indicators, the original ones were just arrows on all except UM, but the replacements didn't have any arrows and didn't show direction at all - combine that with the fact most of the interior indicators and voices didn't work, there was no way of knowing which lift was going except for pressing the call button and seeing if it went out.
Btw I've rode Kone ecodisc elevator, it's really good. I haven't noticed slow leveling, etc, but next time I'll be looking for it. Maybe the doors have a bit of delay, but compared to other lifts around, it's day and night.
Ben, what aspect of the Schindler M-Series do you find is better the KONE M-Series? Seeing as they are so similar in design apart from the obvious things like buttons, indicators and the like, I'm just curious as to what aspect of it Schindler did slightly better than KONE. :P
The similarities between Schindler and Kone M series are very interesting. They both run very similarly. They both work on shaft bar and tacho, and both deacellerate perfectly, but the Schindler is very slightly better. Schindler M series always pre-doors and pre-start is an optional feature. Kone M series does not pre-door or pre-start. The weird thing is that these 2 logics look very different and don't seem to have any similarity between them. The schindler M series uses the expansion card principle, which is also used on Thames valley and Express 3rd gen. This principle is overly complexly designed but very simple to maintain (as long as the circuit cards are still available for purchase). With the Schindler M series M stands for Miconic, but why does the Kone M series use the same letter. Kone M series uses TMS logic, so should be called the T series. Kone TMS looks completely different and has some similarities in design to Kone LCE. The way the 2 M series logics are phuscily designed could not be more different, but both logics are following the exact same theory in design. Also both M series logics had the option to plug in a screen to show ansi/ascii serial data. Also both logics came in DC pulsed AC and DC versions. When AC VF came Schindler updated the logic into the Schindler 7000, which is basically almost the same thing but with VF drive and the option for destination dispatch. Kone instead moved over to synchronous motors (the ecodisc, which is their own custom design) rather than simply adopting standard AC motors like everyone else, and Kone invented the LCE logic. Big Ecodiscs (which I refer to as the 3rd generation) did not come until 2004. So for a very short time (2000 - 2004) there was an AC VF version of the Kone TMS for high rise building before the large models of Ecodiscs became available.
At the moment, I am attempting to make an Arduino lift with Intelligent levelling. If it isn't possible, then I can make an imitation of intelligent levelling with maybe 10 or 15 levelling speeds.
@@felixrwc816 If I want all those levelling speeds, I need an Arduino Mega as an Uno won't have enough pins for all the connections including the call buttons (I probably am going to use this as a dumbwaiter so a COP won't be necessary), screen connections and the relay connections for the power.
I wonder if Schindler’s M-series logic is still covered by patents. All these big companies like Kone, Otis, Schindler innovate a lot and have big R&D budgets but also a lot of patents. It’s not uncommon that big companies have mutal license agreements on using each other’s tech. Allthough I’ve read somewhere that Otis once sued Schindler for copying their gen2 belt drive design. They settled it and formed some mutal license agreement so that they can use each others tech, a bit like a gentlemen’s agreement. I reckon that Lester controls may not have the money to license this sort of propriotary technology even if they have the technical means of copying it, they can’t market it due to patents. And of course the design engineers may be bound by non-disclosure agreements eventhough companies try to lure each others top employees like in the semi conductor industry.
It is very unlikely that shaft bar and tacho is covered by a patent. It is a very standard system. Schindler have just perfected it. One thing that Schindler does that no other lift company would ever do is to have overrun tolerance. M series and Eurolift are not scared to overrun the floor slightly and immediately move back to it before applying the brake. It seems that all other lift companies seem would never dream of doing this and have lifts approach the floor very slowly for the last bit to make sure it doesn't go past it.
I wonder what the avarage stop tolerance is for high-speed lifts (ones that go 4 m/s), just last night I was thinking about a shaft positioning system using a strip with holes at 10mm intervals with an optical encoder (like a rotary encoder in a old fashioned computer mouse with a trackball) and a counter that measures the distance to keep track of the position. I reasoned that a tolerance of +/- 5mm stopping distance should be nice. I sometimes have these philosophical daydream moments..... Shindler's approach seems very novel and quite logical. It would make it a lot easier to stop correctly even with high-speed lifts.
I often think about how I could make a better positioning system. Here are the most common ones that exist on lifts. Reference point and tacho - The tacho is connected to the motor and the reference points can either be shaft bars, magnets on the track, or tickey tape magnets. This is a very common system with great variation in efficiency between logics. Barcode tape - Used by Magnetek and High rise ThyssenKrupp. This is a fully intellegent system that has perfect accuracy. Blind VF - uses ticky tape magnets for the slow down and stop points. Classic 2 speed - Uses shaft switches or tickey tape magnets for the slow down and stop points, or could use a mechanical circuit system in the motor room and selector tape. Rubber tooth tape with tacho - The teeth function like a cog on the tacho. This is fully intellegent when used on hydroware hydraulics. Thames valley sometimes use it with less good results. Hole punch tape - This has holes and a laser. The holes are every 5 - 8 mm. This could be fully intellegent, but the early 2000s thames valleys were not that well set up, but slightly better than blind vf. I have seen some simple 2 speed hydraulics with hole punch tape which seems wasted on a hydraulic. I have also seen it interfaced to a blind VF which it is wasted on. Electric signal wire - This has a wire hanging down the shaft and signals are sent down the wire. It makes a calculation based on the change in signal, maybe based around the speed of light, to work out the position. This is a fully intellegent system but it is chance how well the thames valley has been set up. Also it is weird how many position systems I have seen thames valleys working with. Mechanical intellegent system - These are crazily complex and were used on high rise relay lifts. Very few are left. These have a selector tape system and a mechanical model of the lift that reduces the speed as the lift aproaches the floor.
I wonder if the M-Series broke down a lot. Maybe that’s the reason why the controller is also getting replaced. Apart from that, I don’t see any other reason why this mod was necessary
Does the Otis 2000 and/or Gen2 (1st and 2nd gen) have reference points and tachographs (semi-intelligent) I assume the 2nd generation Gen2 has fully intelligent
There's a lift at our local cinema which must have the worst logics I've ever seen. I sadly don't know what type of lift / logics it is as I wasn't into lifts yet the last time I went to the cinema, but even back then I noticed that it just feels horrible. It's not exactly fast in the first place, but when it levels, you can see how it drastically slows down about 15 cm above / below the floor level, and then absolutely creeps that last bit which takes around 5 to 7 seconds!!! Also obviously no pre-doors on this one. The lift goes up from the parking garage to the first floor, and if it stops at the ground floor as well, you are way faster when you just take the stairs...
I once was in an old building with broken lift and later i found a motherboard one of the many basements, i Googled the motherboars TURNS OUT IT WAS A OTIS LIFT MOTHERBOARD!! I think that's so cool
I think the worst modernisations are done by stannah, they make awful train station lifts, and they replace some classics, like the ones at Tonbridge and Ashford, stannah is boring too
But do remember that the Schindler 3300 and 5500 can do pre doors. I went in a 3300 with pre doors and it takes about 4 and a half seconds to go from the ground floor to the first floor. Also they have full intelligent levelling. If you don't think that is true then look at my latest video and you will see.
@@duhkjhwifyyhed The 3300 that had pre doors was from 2009. Despite that though, it was not a prototype. It did have DMG buttons for some reason though.
Hmmm..... That's interesting that 3300 configured without them is super common. I knew something was clearly wrong when it took them super long to do the "levelling" (although it is more like relevelling and minor corrections) and delays a lot.
Well…. Schindler don’t support Miconic V anymore. They no longer support any of their old components to an extent, and it was likely required to mod the lifts
Schindler M series fromn the 80s were the best ever. In the 90s they got AC motors thus don't overshoot anymore. The Schindler 700, and later 7000 (technically the same lift) are high rise only and use VF AC motors. In some countries you can still get the 7000 with M-series or D-series buttons, but technically they are not much like the 80s M-series any more. They do intelligent levelling but no overshooting. Most o them can do prre-doors.
There are 3 creepy Schindler M series that go 1.8 m/s (faster than the main lifts) that go to the service areas. The easiest way to find them is to look for "no access to shops" door in the car park.
What’s surprising is that there’s some modern high end generic lift logics that are almost as good as the Schindler M-Series logic such as the ones LiftTech in Australia uses for lifts they install and modernise in public infrastructure locations such as at train stations.
ILE CanX runs the lift very nicely, but it isn't used that much, because most generics go for Thames Valley 2 or Lester 2 as those have a super easy engineers interface for lazy engineers.
@@benolifts Yeah LiftTech are probably using the LCE CanX which makes sense as LiftTech are one of the biggest Generic lift companies in Australia and have a ton of contracts with public organisations such as VicTrack so they would have the resources to specifically train their engineers how to use that logic and how to set up their lifts extremely well so they are compliant with the high standards of current public infrastructure in Australia! It’s also very possible that they may also get their motors from Schindler or another company making similar motors as the massive barrel style MRL motors they use look very like Schindler motors but also feature blue paint like what’s on the cheap Chinese knockoff motors you did a recent video about. It’s still unlikely that they would cheap out on motors because of the high standards they must follow under contract of public organisations! :)
TMS is very close but not as good. TMS can not overrun within a tolerance and jump back to the floor position. This means it has to decelerate more protectively than Miconic. But I have seen some very efficient TMS that feel equal to Miconic, such as the ones in Tunbridge Wells that have now been modded with Lester. The stupid building owner didn't have a clue about what they were doing.
Could you briefly explain why the Mitsubishi intelligent levelling is not as good as the m series? Is it because of minor details such as the startup and stop has very small delay and acceleration and deceleration is a bit slower, and no pre doors?
I didn't mention Mitsubishi as they are not very common and would be unlikely to be chosen to modernize an M series. In the mid 80s to mid 90s there was some sort of Schindler, Fujitech and mitsubishi collaboration. I do not know much about this or even to what extent this went to. Fujitech computer control levels identical to Schindler M series and used the same voice, and Fugitech used the same indicator as Mitsubishi. Sadly it is not easy to get in the motor rooms of the sorts of buildings that have Mitsubishi and fujitechs. Until I get in a motor room I can't really comment any more on this. Modern day Mitsubishi fully follows the intellegent levelling principle. It runs perfectly. The only thing is the acceleration is not quite as fast as a Schindler M series.
Beno Wow then it would be absolutely amazing if Schindler, Mitsubishi, and Fujitec can collaborate again. Would like to see the outcome of Mitsubishi modernising an M series lift.
How would you compare Schindler M Series leveling to Kone M Series? Also, how does relay logic work in knowing where the lift is and when to stop/slow down?
Really interesting video. It's a shame to see those Schindler M Series lifts get modernised. I can't believe the new buttons in the Boots Schindler have already been replaced!!!!
Schindler is a good brand... have you done the same kind of video with the Mitsubishi (Japanese ride ;-) ) and the Hyundai and lets add Otis (not a leader anymore from my point of view). And obviously the graphs with such brands. As I am in Spain I will also have to add Orona and Zener in the list of comparison and ones we have all the curves have the price list for 7 stops 22meters
Except in cases where the original is a generic and the modernised model is a proper brand, e.g: Liftronic -> Schindler 5500, and some other exceptional cases. At least Westfield Carindale only changed the buttons on their M-Series (even if it is horrible Dewhurst); they kept everything else original. Also, I think people don't get Schindler 7000s for mid-rise (and even low-rise) because they think it's too expensive for a simple elevator. Schindler might do 7000s for two floors, but no one can be bothered to spend that much money on such an advanced model for just two floors.
In my opinion dewhurst is not all that horrible. Their fixtures work fine, they have Braille, and last quite sometime. Yes they do look boring and crappy though but still better than DMG. (Some step buttons look better)
Where I live (Australia), Dewhurst is everywhere, which is why I hate it so much. I don't see anyone placing a 2-floor 7000 in their building unless it's heavily trafficked, but they should consider one for 7 floors.
7000 is the only proper lift that Schindler make nowadays. It is a well built lift and has great logic and a heavy duty chassis and cab design. I am guessing that Schindler are on their way to inventing the 7700 for high rise which will be based on an alloy structure with no chassis like the 3300 and 5500. The alloy designs of the 3300 and 5500 allow Schindler to use very thin metal, but on the 3300 Schindler have gone way too far with how thin and cheap they have gone. There is so little structure to the lift car and the belt cables are clamp tied to the tracks. The 3300 has harsh brakes, it scares me to think of how much stress would be going through the cheap lift if it was at maximum capacity and was traveling down and it was to do an emergency stop. The 5500 is marketed as a high quality lift when actually it is only medium quality. It is just a 3300 that has every part of the lift built to a higher spec.
Beno, I don't know if you get paid for this video, but it is not very objective. I think your preference for Schindler and Kone have tainted your opinion. Modern controlers use a absolute positioning system and that will be combined with DCP4 controll of the VVVF. The only thing the controller does is tell the VVVF the distance it has to travel (which will be udated all the time). The VVVF then will decide the maximum speed it can run on that distance,mand where it starts to descelleare. It does not matter wether it is 30M of 30CM. How fast it accellerates and descellerates is programmed into the VVVF drive. You can make it realy smooth, or as fast that people feel their stomach when stopping. Pre opening doors is also standard, you can set it so the door starts opening when it is at full stop, or even a bit earlyer but people tend to get scared when they see the lift moving while the doors already open. So it is more a question about the mechanic who sets up the lift at the end of the modernisation, then the equipment used. A lot af mechanics try to set up the lift as smooth that you nearly do not feel that it moves and then it takes a bit more time (which does not matter in most of the buildings), but they could also set it up so it will travel just as fast between floors as the old controller (or even faster). Parts get obsolete, that is also a reason why modernisation is a good thing. Especially Schindler updates parts real fast and does not make them backwards compatible. I know of installations where replacing the door drive (when it is defective) is not possible without replacing lots of controller boards to make the new door drive compatible, which makes it almost as expensive as a modernisation (and you still have an old controller, waiting for the next expensive breakdown). I usually like your articles, but in my opinion this is realy BS.
Firstly I do not get paid to make videos. And unlike other youtubers, I don't even get sponsorships. My opinions can not be brought or sold. The reason why I like Kone and Schindler is because they make proper products which have had design and effort put into them, unlike 3rd party companies which are bland and feel like they are cobbled together from brought in parts. As for VF drives. In thery a VF drive which knows the absolute position, for example, a Lester controls with a 2D barcode strip in the shaft, should arrive at the floor quicker and more precisely without the horrid levelling stage, compared to a drive with just shaft bars and a tacho. But in reality this is not true. This shows how crap Lester is. Schindlers run perfectly and far better than a Lester, despite having less position knowledge of where the lift is. And that is because Schindler is a large company who are able to design good products. Schindler lifts can overrun the floor slightly, but in a controlled way, and then immediately align back with the floor. This feature allows them to arrive at the floor faster. No other lift can do this. All other types of lift have to slow down early to make sure they don't overrun the floor. As for backwards compatibility. Schindler have used Miconic MX-GC in both Eurolift and 5500. This means the same logic has been used for a long time, which means more are installed, meaning more spare parts are available. Although I do not know about door drives, so can't comment on this. The only downside to using proprietary lifts like Schindler and Kone is that you are tied into proprietary restrictions and parts. Although there are a lot of workarounds for these. As long as you buy a lift that there are loads of (e.g. Kone LCE and Schindler 5500) there will be enough demand for parts that workarounds will be made (usually from Chinese companies).
Not sure. I heard Kone making crappy lifts in the US (the models with the ecodisc motor, and even some old Montgomery Kone models). Here in Asia most Kone lifts are good.
You should compare otis 2000 to Kone LCE West Quay is the only shopping centre ik to have otis lifts that have been modernisation by Kone *THANK GOD IT NOT BEEN MODERNISATION BY A STUPIDLY DUMB GENERIC unlike the lifts at the marlands where they had Kone M series but sadly been modified with Stupid Lester controls but idk what logic or how much it been modernised
Many Schindler lifts that get their Panel Controllers (Logic) replaced due to the fact that most Schindler lifts need a laptop to be worked on. Obviously this is a closed source and Schindler have costly service and repair costs. The company who next work on the lift will recommend a modernisation to replace the controller so that other companies can do work on the lift. In this case, I doubt this was the issue here but more than most this is the case with newer Schindler Lifts.
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
It’s really annoying when a lift is like :
Okay we’re stopping
*NOW*
Nope Just kidding I’m going to cruise slowly for the next awkward few seconds
So they replaced the prev generation Lamborghini with the new Suzuki Swift? :D
NWX427 sadly yes
How did know this?
SzDavidHUN I want to I don’t know
PHILIPS SECURITYATES
Eh?
no they replaced a super reliable toyota camry with a shitty gm product essentially.
Truly enjoy your videos, never had any interest in lifts but for some reason your enthusiasm and knowledge has me enthralled.
Keep up the good work, and stay safe 👍👍👍
😃👏👍😂
I think that kone lift actually uses an Omron VF.
Kone really only use their own VFs on their ecodisc motors.
But kone is one of the few companies that know how to set up a blind vf to run well.
I have seen some kone mods where it levels nearly perfectly and pre-doors even quicker than an ecodisc (even better than the lift in this video!).
I filmed one, might upload it later!
Old Kone mods definitely use Omron or similar blind VFs. There's a good chance that modern Kone mods use their own VFs as they seem to still be semi-intelligent.
It's just criminal that those M-Series have been modernised!! The cabs could have been tarted up but it seems the only goal of a second rate lift company is to screw the building owner for as much £££ they can get away with! This has really annoyed me!
Huh?
All of them had been modernized!!!
@@MichalM Pre-doored.
morthren m-series was turned into t-series
Don't forget the full Otis 2000 VF and Kone M Series!
Wow, very informative video there! I think the Kone mod is the best too. The last lifts you showed I think have been modernised the same way as the glass lift at the Maylord centre in Hereford, which was an 80's Otis, now ruined by Jacksons. It does start up painfully slowly but levels quickly which I don't really understand, then only a second or 2 later it opens its doors. Very interesting and great to know that Lester has got rid of their blind VF...! Great video Beno! Oh and Schindler M Series logic is amazing!
Schindler are my favorite company and If I own some building, I would install the Schindler 7000 with M-series fixture I don't care if my building are mid rise!! I still want a Schindler 7000 in there!
Modernizing a lift makes it better. No it fucking doesn't.
I agree. Some OTIS touch lifts near me were modded into complete shit
Schindler M-Series logic is the type of logic that can never be improved upon as it is the best logic of all time :D
Agreed
True
5:06 has a thyssenkrupp button
Good news: There is a 70s Evans lift in the registry office in Leicester and my father has told the building owner not to modernize it! So don't worry, I have come to the rescue to prevent old lifts still there from being modernized.
yesss, episode 2! finally!
*Yatta!!!!*
*Episode 2 is now uploaded!*
Here is a comparison from the previous M-series in the mall, to the Horrible generic lifts in the present day.
M-series:
-Extremley fast with perfect leveling.
-No lines full of people wanting to board the lifts.
-Never broke down.
Generic lifts:
-Slowed down too early (occasionally)
-More than 5 people waiting to board the lift.
-Would probably break down in a few years.
-Reliability problems.
Schindler no longer supply spare parts for older lifts, so unless you want reliability problems in future, it was the right call to mod with Lester
7:09 For some reason many new KONEs in my country may level quickly, but after that wait for 4-5s bef the doors open. So in the end they're not that fast.
The pre-door relay is usually present as standard. Sometimes the software setting is not enabled. You can enable it yourself in the cabinet. Menu 1, option 12, set to 1.
I've seen a lot of older lifts whose doors open quickly even though pre-doors are uncommon (at least where I live) i.e. without waiting 3-6s after leveling. Also to clarify I've realised that it's not just KONE but many other companies' (e.g. OTIS, Schindler, IFE, VM Elevator) newer lifts too that insist on such waiting, though it's less common on higher-rise lifts (so I'm thinking if this is related to any limitations in MRL technology). By the way on some KONEs you can hear the lift's brakes being applied halfway through this waiting period, whereas on the other hand many OTIS lifts in my university apply the brakes when the doors are opening instead (without the need to wait after the lift levels, but with slower though not blind-VF slow leveling)
You are the first person to notice this other than me. They re-engineered the Schindler lifts at my old work (sorry can't remember to what), the net result was exactly as you said it was slower while coming to a stop, we all had to wait longer. And to make matters far worse they were less reliable in the end... There must be some good lift salespeople around. What got me was the quality of the Schindler equipment they removed looked really good and easy to fix if it broke only to be replaced by what looked like junk to me. Anyway, I tend to hate new things so I am biased..perhaps.
When will misconceptions 3 come out
YAY! I was waiting for this for soo long finally!
i know who you are
I have a modernized direct drive Otis at work and it levels as good as the Schindler M series with the exception that there is a 2 second delay between the stop and the doors beginning to open. If you are really OCD though you can mash the open button and the door will open sooner.
I'm going to be doing lift spotting now. 🙂
Yes, the orange trim looks great.
Well I do have a good little catch phrase that goes with what you mean sometimes it does and sometimes it doesnt and this falls under the it doesnt side
What you said in this video totally speaks the truth....
I really wished that Schindler MT, 300A, 330A are like M-Series.
400A/AE, 500A, and 700A are better but the button are still not M-Series
The most efficient lift in terms of stopping is a relay controlled single speed lift.
i love how you read kone like Kon instead of ko neaee
I think you can buy a Schindler 7000 with M-Line Fixture or also Otis Skyrise for a Mid Rise building most just don't because it's too expensive compared to a Schindler 5500 or Otis Gen 2
2:12 Unfortunately it appears that blind VF has been added to my country's (Singapore) subway/metro trains too (East West & North South Lines), following the resignalling project from the Westinghouse fixed-block signalling to Thales' SelTrac CBTC. Thus the trains now take ~10s longer to brake & stop at each station, and with up to 33 stations per line that's up to ~5.5min more travelling time
I don't think a train can have a blind VF. A train automation system would not rely on just speed reference points without a tacho. The only train I could think off with a blind VF is the little cable pulled train to the car park at Frankfurt airport. Also the Naples funiculars are blind VF and take ages to stop at a station.
The Waterstones lift is been modernised crap Jackson not even interesting and please mind the doors doors closing.
Relay controllers are more reliable. When it’s run by a computer or whatever it’s more likely to get confused and screw itself up.
I may be wrong as I am not an expert on elevators/lifts.
no, you are right. old lifts are in fact more relible
You can still run into bugs with RRL if you're unlucky
Old lifs/elevators were surely built to last, quality over quantity. But nowadays it's quantity over quality...
It really depends.
Those thyseenkrupp twin lifts Ben filmed was computer software controlled, had no relay logic whatsoever. And it was reliable for him (and the fact that the computer had "military grade" software makes me think that computers are not that bad)
@@duhkjhwifyyhed each kind of elev/lift logic have its own problems, relays have a crap load of arcing which wear down the contacts, and solid state can be a real PITA to service if the fault lies deep down in the circuits.
There was a big issue with the previous LED indicators, the original ones were just arrows on all except UM, but the replacements didn't have any arrows and didn't show direction at all - combine that with the fact most of the interior indicators and voices didn't work, there was no way of knowing which lift was going except for pressing the call button and seeing if it went out.
0:00
*Beno chime*
Lift misconceptions episode 2: Modernizing a lift makes it better. No it fuc*ing doesn't!
Btw I've rode Kone ecodisc elevator, it's really good. I haven't noticed slow leveling, etc, but next time I'll be looking for it. Maybe the doors have a bit of delay, but compared to other lifts around, it's day and night.
Ben, what aspect of the Schindler M-Series do you find is better the KONE M-Series? Seeing as they are so similar in design apart from the obvious things like buttons, indicators and the like, I'm just curious as to what aspect of it Schindler did slightly better than KONE. :P
The similarities between Schindler and Kone M series are very interesting. They both run very similarly. They both work on shaft bar and tacho, and both deacellerate perfectly, but the Schindler is very slightly better. Schindler M series always pre-doors and pre-start is an optional feature. Kone M series does not pre-door or pre-start. The weird thing is that these 2 logics look very different and don't seem to have any similarity between them. The schindler M series uses the expansion card principle, which is also used on Thames valley and Express 3rd gen. This principle is overly complexly designed but very simple to maintain (as long as the circuit cards are still available for purchase). With the Schindler M series M stands for Miconic, but why does the Kone M series use the same letter. Kone M series uses TMS logic, so should be called the T series. Kone TMS looks completely different and has some similarities in design to Kone LCE. The way the 2 M series logics are phuscily designed could not be more different, but both logics are following the exact same theory in design. Also both M series logics had the option to plug in a screen to show ansi/ascii serial data. Also both logics came in DC pulsed AC and DC versions. When AC VF came Schindler updated the logic into the Schindler 7000, which is basically almost the same thing but with VF drive and the option for destination dispatch. Kone instead moved over to synchronous motors (the ecodisc, which is their own custom design) rather than simply adopting standard AC motors like everyone else, and Kone invented the LCE logic. Big Ecodiscs (which I refer to as the 3rd generation) did not come until 2004. So for a very short time (2000 - 2004) there was an AC VF version of the Kone TMS for high rise building before the large models of Ecodiscs became available.
-Actually, M-Series don't predoor in Australia for some reason.-
@@benolifts I have found 12 M Series so far and they all pre-door.
_"Modernizing a lift makes it better," no, it _*_fucking_*_ doesn't_
I love that line
Those schindler lifts at the start are like ATO. Just really efficient.
At the moment, I am attempting to make an Arduino lift with Intelligent levelling. If it isn't possible, then I can make an imitation of intelligent levelling with maybe 10 or 15 levelling speeds.
LBSi UK Haha! I want to do the same!
@@felixrwc816 I had a look on eBay, and they sell VF drives but they are way too expensive and I also doubt that they are compatible with the Arduino.
LBSi UK I will do something simple
@@felixrwc816 Like 2 speed or single speed?
@@felixrwc816 If I want all those levelling speeds, I need an Arduino Mega as an Uno won't have enough pins for all the connections including the call buttons (I probably am going to use this as a dumbwaiter so a COP won't be necessary), screen connections and the relay connections for the power.
This was the video that made me sub and love this channel
I wonder if Schindler’s M-series logic is still covered by patents. All these big companies like Kone, Otis, Schindler innovate a lot and have big R&D budgets but also a lot of patents. It’s not uncommon that big companies have mutal license agreements on using each other’s tech. Allthough I’ve read somewhere that Otis once sued Schindler for copying their gen2 belt drive design. They settled it and formed some mutal license agreement so that they can use each others tech, a bit like a gentlemen’s agreement. I reckon that Lester controls may not have the money to license this sort of propriotary technology even if they have the technical means of copying it, they can’t market it due to patents. And of course the design engineers may be bound by non-disclosure agreements eventhough companies try to lure each others top employees like in the semi conductor industry.
It is very unlikely that shaft bar and tacho is covered by a patent. It is a very standard system. Schindler have just perfected it. One thing that Schindler does that no other lift company would ever do is to have overrun tolerance. M series and Eurolift are not scared to overrun the floor slightly and immediately move back to it before applying the brake. It seems that all other lift companies seem would never dream of doing this and have lifts approach the floor very slowly for the last bit to make sure it doesn't go past it.
I wonder what the avarage stop tolerance is for high-speed lifts (ones that go 4 m/s), just last night I was thinking about a shaft positioning system using a strip with holes at 10mm intervals with an optical encoder (like a rotary encoder in a old fashioned computer mouse with a trackball) and a counter that measures the distance to keep track of the position. I reasoned that a tolerance of +/- 5mm stopping distance should be nice. I sometimes have these philosophical daydream moments..... Shindler's approach seems very novel and quite logical. It would make it a lot easier to stop correctly even with high-speed lifts.
I often think about how I could make a better positioning system.
Here are the most common ones that exist on lifts.
Reference point and tacho - The tacho is connected to the motor and the reference points can either be shaft bars, magnets on the track, or tickey tape magnets. This is a very common system with great variation in efficiency between logics.
Barcode tape - Used by Magnetek and High rise ThyssenKrupp. This is a fully intellegent system that has perfect accuracy.
Blind VF - uses ticky tape magnets for the slow down and stop points.
Classic 2 speed - Uses shaft switches or tickey tape magnets for the slow down and stop points, or could use a mechanical circuit system in the motor room and selector tape.
Rubber tooth tape with tacho - The teeth function like a cog on the tacho. This is fully intellegent when used on hydroware hydraulics. Thames valley sometimes use it with less good results.
Hole punch tape - This has holes and a laser. The holes are every 5 - 8 mm. This could be fully intellegent, but the early 2000s thames valleys were not that well set up, but slightly better than blind vf. I have seen some simple 2 speed hydraulics with hole punch tape which seems wasted on a hydraulic. I have also seen it interfaced to a blind VF which it is wasted on.
Electric signal wire - This has a wire hanging down the shaft and signals are sent down the wire. It makes a calculation based on the change in signal, maybe based around the speed of light, to work out the position. This is a fully intellegent system but it is chance how well the thames valley has been set up. Also it is weird how many position systems I have seen thames valleys working with.
Mechanical intellegent system - These are crazily complex and were used on high rise relay lifts. Very few are left. These have a selector tape system and a mechanical model of the lift that reduces the speed as the lift aproaches the floor.
I’m not a lift guy but man, those decelerations are oddly satisfating.
Otis is a good company too dude.
In Belfast Northern Ireland 4 mseries survived and the levelling is great and I don’t think they well be modernised
What came first? Schindler's lift or Schindler's list?
Schindler Group (assuming that's what you mean by Schindler's lift): Schindler Group was founded in 1874; _Schindler's List_ was released in 1993
So why do they modernise elevators if it does not improve ride quality? Ease of maintenance?
$$$
The building designer probably thought we need to make this shit generic look nice.
I wonder if the M-Series broke down a lot. Maybe that’s the reason why the controller is also getting replaced. Apart from that, I don’t see any other reason why this mod was necessary
It was probably getting expensive to maintain them. They probably cheaped out on the mod since malls are no where near as lucrative as they once were
There are some amazing Miconics in a shopping centre in Northern Ireland but there going to be modded by tke, I feel how you felt in this video.
Why was this in my recommendation
Why did you click on the video
the best thing would be an ecodisc with this logic
An Ecodisc with Miconic? That would be crazy.
@@benolifts ik lol
@@benolifts can you come to sunderland and we will surf some lifts and ride i know a spot with an ecodisc
@@benoliftsDont Forget to add the 400 Hz VF pulsing and Meiller doors.
Was the lift lighting outside the lifts by Generic or by the building itself?
Reece Longden The building owner decided to put it there!
Yeah.
Generic Lifts are getting no better actually!!
Your Video was absolutely Awesome! I totally enjoyed it! I just love your channel!
In my opinion the misubishi lifts have a very nice levelling and it’s very smooth
What if a generic was modded with m series
It does. Why would they do it then? Also an Otis lift is like a more modern express to me.
Oh come off it. "ERMAFERKING GERD IT DISNT OPEN ITZ DOORZ. ITZ BAD. :P"
Go to Victoria Square, Woking because it is has 3+ cranes and building 3 Skyscrapers being
Does the Otis 2000 and/or Gen2 (1st and 2nd gen) have reference points and tachographs (semi-intelligent) I assume the 2nd generation Gen2 has fully intelligent
All gen2s use reference points and tacho.
There's a lift at our local cinema which must have the worst logics I've ever seen. I sadly don't know what type of lift / logics it is as I wasn't into lifts yet the last time I went to the cinema, but even back then I noticed that it just feels horrible. It's not exactly fast in the first place, but when it levels, you can see how it drastically slows down about 15 cm above / below the floor level, and then absolutely creeps that last bit which takes around 5 to 7 seconds!!! Also obviously no pre-doors on this one. The lift goes up from the parking garage to the first floor, and if it stops at the ground floor as well, you are way faster when you just take the stairs...
I'll be honest my favorite Schindler lift interior, fixtures, and everything is the Schindler 300p (which I find to be rather unreliable)
I really want Kone mitubisy (yes I can’t spell it I’m dylexec) and scindler to make a lift it would be amazing
I once was in an old building with broken lift and later i found a motherboard one of the many basements, i Googled the motherboars TURNS OUT IT WAS A OTIS LIFT MOTHERBOARD!! I think that's so cool
You know what. The Bromley glades used to have really good lifts and now Jackson have modernised the lifts and there downright crap
*CONGRATULATIONS!!!!*
I think the worst modernisations are done by stannah, they make awful train station lifts, and they replace some classics, like the ones at Tonbridge and Ashford, stannah is boring too
But do remember that the Schindler 3300 and 5500 can do pre doors. I went in a 3300 with pre doors and it takes about 4 and a half seconds to go from the ground floor to the first floor. Also they have full intelligent levelling.
If you don't think that is true then look at my latest video and you will see.
Seems like that's very recent that Schindler configure their 3300 with predoors.
@@duhkjhwifyyhed The 3300 that had pre doors was from 2009. Despite that though, it was not a prototype. It did have DMG buttons for some reason though.
Hmmm..... That's interesting that 3300 configured without them is super common. I knew something was clearly wrong when it took them super long to do the "levelling" (although it is more like relevelling and minor corrections) and delays a lot.
Have you ever come across an M series that's been modernised by Schindler?
I don't think so
Really interesting video well done 👍
Why do they have to mod the M series?! What’s the best buttons on the market?
Well….
Schindler don’t support Miconic V anymore. They no longer support any of their old components to an extent, and it was likely required to mod the lifts
Beno here in the usa we have schindler 400a with the miconic 10 logic and they can have only 3 floors
@liftsurfer52 400a was able to serve up, too, like 20ish floors? Also, there have been a few cases of 2 story 400as.
Are all the lift motors original ?
Schindler M series fromn the 80s were the best ever. In the 90s they got AC motors thus don't overshoot anymore. The Schindler 700, and later 7000 (technically the same lift) are high rise only and use VF AC motors. In some countries you can still get the 7000 with M-series or D-series buttons, but technically they are not much like the 80s M-series any more. They do intelligent levelling but no overshooting. Most o them can do prre-doors.
Looks like i got the last film of those central lifts!
I was exploring those same Glades' lifts just some days ago, because your videos were making me search for secret basements XD
There are 3 creepy Schindler M series that go 1.8 m/s (faster than the main lifts) that go to the service areas. The easiest way to find them is to look for "no access to shops" door in the car park.
Sounds like a challenge!
What’s surprising is that there’s some modern high end generic lift logics that are almost as good as the Schindler M-Series logic such as the ones LiftTech in Australia uses for lifts they install and modernise in public infrastructure locations such as at train stations.
ILE CanX runs the lift very nicely, but it isn't used that much, because most generics go for Thames Valley 2 or Lester 2 as those have a super easy engineers interface for lazy engineers.
@@benolifts
Yeah LiftTech are probably using the LCE CanX which makes sense as LiftTech are one of the biggest Generic lift companies in Australia and have a ton of contracts with public organisations such as VicTrack so they would have the resources to specifically train their engineers how to use that logic and how to set up their lifts extremely well so they are compliant with the high standards of current public infrastructure in Australia! It’s also very possible that they may also get their motors from Schindler or another company making similar motors as the massive barrel style MRL motors they use look very like Schindler motors but also feature blue paint like what’s on the cheap Chinese knockoff motors you did a recent video about. It’s still unlikely that they would cheap out on motors because of the high standards they must follow under contract of public organisations! :)
You should make a video on the misconceptions of some common civil laws in some of your videos, and how people should be more aware of their rights
9:22 Another Car Is Modernizing, It Will Prepared...
I love this vid!
Why are you always more hyped about Miconic than TMS?
Does TMS not level as good?
Also in my opinion i think TMS sounds more awesome.
TMS is very close but not as good. TMS can not overrun within a tolerance and jump back to the floor position. This means it has to decelerate more protectively than Miconic. But I have seen some very efficient TMS that feel equal to Miconic, such as the ones in Tunbridge Wells that have now been modded with Lester. The stupid building owner didn't have a clue about what they were doing.
@@benolifts Ah ok
I am going to mention that the kone mod is actually using a blind vf.
Amazing video!!
Yatta!
Could you briefly explain why the Mitsubishi intelligent levelling is not as good as the m series? Is it because of minor details such as the startup and stop has very small delay and acceleration and deceleration is a bit slower, and no pre doors?
I didn't mention Mitsubishi as they are not very common and would be unlikely to be chosen to modernize an M series. In the mid 80s to mid 90s there was some sort of Schindler, Fujitech and mitsubishi collaboration. I do not know much about this or even to what extent this went to. Fujitech computer control levels identical to Schindler M series and used the same voice, and Fugitech used the same indicator as Mitsubishi. Sadly it is not easy to get in the motor rooms of the sorts of buildings that have Mitsubishi and fujitechs. Until I get in a motor room I can't really comment any more on this. Modern day Mitsubishi fully follows the intellegent levelling principle. It runs perfectly. The only thing is the acceleration is not quite as fast as a Schindler M series.
Beno Wow then it would be absolutely amazing if Schindler, Mitsubishi, and Fujitec can collaborate again. Would like to see the outcome of Mitsubishi modernising an M series lift.
What is that song at the end of your video? Also I love vids like this!
Kone LCE and schindler m series are high to 1 m/s
unless its generic modded by ecosisc
How would you compare Schindler M Series leveling to Kone M Series? Also, how does relay logic work in knowing where the lift is and when to stop/slow down?
This thing is common in Singapore nowadays.
Is the Schindler 5500 button panel better than the Schindler M Line button panel?
mitsubishi too
they might modrenize the river street lifts in bedford i love those lift cause the first lift its clunky when the doors close :(
u visted them in 2010 ben they are express lifts
theo john Mouzouros
Ah
Really interesting video. It's a shame to see those Schindler M Series lifts get modernised. I can't believe the new buttons in the Boots Schindler have already been replaced!!!!
exempt from a generic to ecodisc
Hey Beno, I really love your video!!! Actually, I found some of the worse lifts at my hometown if you're interested....
I had a 1 speed, very efficient old relay lift at my apt. building till 2014. Now it is blind VF with Lester logic 🙁
MartinYTCZ
Ewwwwwwww
Schindler is a good brand... have you done the same kind of video with the Mitsubishi (Japanese ride ;-) ) and the Hyundai and lets add Otis (not a leader anymore from my point of view). And obviously the graphs with such brands. As I am in Spain I will also have to add Orona and Zener in the list of comparison and ones we have all the curves have the price list for 7 stops 22meters
Except in cases where the original is a generic and the modernised model is a proper brand, e.g: Liftronic -> Schindler 5500, and some other exceptional cases. At least Westfield Carindale only changed the buttons on their M-Series (even if it is horrible Dewhurst); they kept everything else original.
Also, I think people don't get Schindler 7000s for mid-rise (and even low-rise) because they think it's too expensive for a simple elevator. Schindler might do 7000s for two floors, but no one can be bothered to spend that much money on such an advanced model for just two floors.
I would spend that money.
I wouldn't. As any sane person would do I will only put a 3300 for max 3 floors. A 7000 series can actually be less power efficient. (Not sure)
In my opinion dewhurst is not all that horrible. Their fixtures work fine, they have Braille, and last quite sometime. Yes they do look boring and crappy though but still better than DMG. (Some step buttons look better)
Where I live (Australia), Dewhurst is everywhere, which is why I hate it so much.
I don't see anyone placing a 2-floor 7000 in their building unless it's heavily trafficked, but they should consider one for 7 floors.
7000 is the only proper lift that Schindler make nowadays. It is a well built lift and has great logic and a heavy duty chassis and cab design. I am guessing that Schindler are on their way to inventing the 7700 for high rise which will be based on an alloy structure with no chassis like the 3300 and 5500. The alloy designs of the 3300 and 5500 allow Schindler to use very thin metal, but on the 3300 Schindler have gone way too far with how thin and cheap they have gone. There is so little structure to the lift car and the belt cables are clamp tied to the tracks. The 3300 has harsh brakes, it scares me to think of how much stress would be going through the cheap lift if it was at maximum capacity and was traveling down and it was to do an emergency stop. The 5500 is marketed as a high quality lift when actually it is only medium quality. It is just a 3300 that has every part of the lift built to a higher spec.
Beno, I don't know if you get paid for this video, but it is not very objective. I think your preference for Schindler and Kone have tainted your opinion.
Modern controlers use a absolute positioning system and that will be combined with DCP4 controll of the VVVF. The only thing the controller does is tell the VVVF the distance it has to travel (which will be udated all the time). The VVVF then will decide the maximum speed it can run on that distance,mand where it starts to descelleare. It does not matter wether it is 30M of 30CM.
How fast it accellerates and descellerates is programmed into the VVVF drive. You can make it realy smooth, or as fast that people feel their stomach when stopping.
Pre opening doors is also standard, you can set it so the door starts opening when it is at full stop, or even a bit earlyer but people tend to get scared when they see the lift moving while the doors already open.
So it is more a question about the mechanic who sets up the lift at the end of the modernisation, then the equipment used.
A lot af mechanics try to set up the lift as smooth that you nearly do not feel that it moves and then it takes a bit more time (which does not matter in most of the buildings), but they could also set it up so it will travel just as fast between floors as the old controller (or even faster).
Parts get obsolete, that is also a reason why modernisation is a good thing. Especially Schindler updates parts real fast and does not make them backwards compatible. I know of installations where replacing the door drive (when it is defective) is not possible without replacing lots of controller boards to make the new door drive compatible, which makes it almost as expensive as a modernisation (and you still have an old controller, waiting for the next expensive breakdown).
I usually like your articles, but in my opinion this is realy BS.
Firstly I do not get paid to make videos. And unlike other youtubers, I don't even get sponsorships. My opinions can not be brought or sold.
The reason why I like Kone and Schindler is because they make proper products which have had design and effort put into them, unlike 3rd party companies which are bland and feel like they are cobbled together from brought in parts.
As for VF drives. In thery a VF drive which knows the absolute position, for example, a Lester controls with a 2D barcode strip in the shaft, should arrive at the floor quicker and more precisely without the horrid levelling stage, compared to a drive with just shaft bars and a tacho. But in reality this is not true. This shows how crap Lester is. Schindlers run perfectly and far better than a Lester, despite having less position knowledge of where the lift is. And that is because Schindler is a large company who are able to design good products. Schindler lifts can overrun the floor slightly, but in a controlled way, and then immediately align back with the floor. This feature allows them to arrive at the floor faster. No other lift can do this. All other types of lift have to slow down early to make sure they don't overrun the floor.
As for backwards compatibility. Schindler have used Miconic MX-GC in both Eurolift and 5500. This means the same logic has been used for a long time, which means more are installed, meaning more spare parts are available. Although I do not know about door drives, so can't comment on this.
The only downside to using proprietary lifts like Schindler and Kone is that you are tied into proprietary restrictions and parts. Although there are a lot of workarounds for these. As long as you buy a lift that there are loads of (e.g. Kone LCE and Schindler 5500) there will be enough demand for parts that workarounds will be made (usually from Chinese companies).
In the USA, I don't think I've ever seen a Schindler that is actaully "amazing."
It's what they like Aristocrat's.
I don't think you see good Kone lifts either in the US.
That's not fair..???
Not sure. I heard Kone making crappy lifts in the US (the models with the ecodisc motor, and even some old Montgomery Kone models). Here in Asia most Kone lifts are good.
You should compare otis 2000 to Kone LCE
West Quay is the only shopping centre ik to have otis lifts that have been modernisation by Kone
*THANK GOD IT NOT BEEN MODERNISATION BY A STUPIDLY DUMB GENERIC unlike the lifts at the marlands where they had Kone M series but sadly been modified with Stupid Lester controls but idk what logic or how much it been modernised
What happened to the spooky Schindler M Series?
big up the glades uno
Do you have a vid of the motor room of the Zeta lift
It was in one of my lift compilation videos. I can't remember which one.
@@benolifts, it's a compilation about you. Congratulations on your patronage.
I ment a minimum of 2 floors
Many Schindler lifts that get their Panel Controllers (Logic) replaced due to the fact that most Schindler lifts need a laptop to be worked on. Obviously this is a closed source and Schindler have costly service and repair costs. The company who next work on the lift will recommend a modernisation to replace the controller so that other companies can do work on the lift. In this case, I doubt this was the issue here but more than most this is the case with newer Schindler Lifts.
Have you checked out that Spooky Schindler in Boots