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Overall great video. One request though. If you guys could start to put your sources in the description in all of your future videos that would be great. You really should be giving written credit to the sources you use.
For advanced literate civilizations like Mycenaeans and Minoans losing completely the ability to write for over 3 centuries, i don't think is just an age of adaptation. Something significantly destructive must had took place which led to this phenomenon. Civilizations won't stop writing out of the blue.
I beg to differ: The Minoans and Mycenaeans were palatial cultures. They didn't write diaries and fan-fiction - at least not into clay. The texts from that period which have been preserved for us were bureaucratic. They were a direct product of the monarchs staff. If that political system vanishes - so will their lists, messages and so on. And keep in mind that in a society where there's longer a king who needs scribes, there will be nobody who learns writing just for the sport of it - or their literary products are only preserved on perishable materials like wood. Ancient civilizations were never literalized through and through - the technique always was part of elite culture.
Only a very select minority were literate. It wouldn’t take that serious of a crisis to wipe out the scribal class which then cascades into a system collapse
The Bronze Age Collapse is nowadays described by archaeologists and historians, as a "systems collapse". Drought and failed crops caused famine, while the depletion of the tin mines to the east, which is essential to produce bronze (mixed with copper) made bronze, which was the most widely used material of the time (used for making weapons and tools) scarce and expensive. However, the Sea Peoples most certainly existed and caused major catastrophies. Yes they were the result, not the cause of the aformentioned resources crisis, but it was those groups that caused the destruction of most of the major centers around the eastern Mediterranean. The Egyptian records are explicit in this and there is no reason for the Egyptians to have misrepresented something like this. That is not to say that they were a single coordinating group, but there is no reason to rule out the possibility of at least some of those groups working together. And of course there is the archaeological evidence. The Mycenaean palace centers (Mycenae, Pylos etc.) were the first to be destroyed. Possible causes are a combination of at least some of the following: social unrest due to famine, dynastic disputes and even possible discontent from what seems to have been a military defeat by the Hittites in Asia Minor, the sharp rise of slaves that could have revolted, and a possible invasion of northern tribes (Dorians, which however probably occured later), as well as pirates from the west.The Mycenaeans were a sea-faring people and it is natural that many would have fled the catastrophy using their ships and resorted to piracy and looting as a form of sustenance. Shortly afterwards the Hittite capital Hattusa is destroyed and the Hittite kingdom collapses due to invasions from the Kaskians probably. Unrest engulfs Anatolia and in the same way, several coastal peoples flee by means of the sea as well. Raiders from the western Mediterranean could have joined these motley groups of pirates and invaders as well. This explains the fact that several of the names of the sea peoples as reported by the Egyptians:Denien, Sekelesh, Serden, Luka, resemble familiar names such as Danaans (an ealy name of the Greek people), Sicelians, Sardenians, Lycians (in Asia Minor). But what essentialy proves (at least in my eyes) the above, is that the Egyptians mention that after they defeated the Sea peoples, they resettled a group of them into what came to be known later as Palestine. Relatively recent archaological excavations into early Philistine settlements have unearthed structures that are essentially identical to Mycenaean structures (such as what is unmistakeably a 'megaron' palace). It seems that the Philistines were a mixture of these raiders from somewhere in the Aegean or Eastern Med. and local Semitic people, who were the majority in the area of course, thus we see in archaeology a gradual assimilation of Philistine culture with the surrounding Semitic ones, in the following centuries.
The transition to a more regionalized trade that indeed happened in some areas in the Mediterranean does not mean that there weren't events which collectively fit the description of "collapse", that happened within a few decades and resulted in the destruction of ALL civilisations of the Med. aside Egypt. It is not by chance that the studies that support the theory of a more gradual transition were done in places such Euboea, which were relatively far away from the centers of power. On the contrary, the rise of Euboean trade and others (which of course could not be compared in magnitude to the previous Mycenaean ones) suggests there was a huge vacuum created suddenly, by what could only have been an event classified as destruction, that was filled to an extent by more regional powers. To me this simply shows that life went on after the collapse, especially in more remote areas that might not have experienced the same levels of devastation. Following the collapse, writting disappeared within the Greek world for 3 centuries, while urban centers of notable size did not appear also for centuriesin Greece. It is difficult to see how a gradual transition could have resulted in such a backwards development.
I was going to write something but you basically summed up everything there was to say, man. It's a rare miss by this channel but a miss nonetheless. We can also add up the fact that pottery had regressed notably and many letters that were written at the time of cities asking for their king's help in fighting this migration and piracy. Ramesses III had to fight to keep his kingdom but even then they lost the vast majority of their territory in the Levant and people fled to places that were far form the coast. This is not a reconfiguration of trade networks and adaptation of civilization
@@maximusseverus7040 Thanks man. While I also do not generally agree with this gradual transition type of theory presented in this video, I do not blame the channel. They seem to follow closely the new emerging archaeological theories and this one was published a few years back, concentrating on the transformation of trade and societies during that period. While the localized research is sound, I believe they missed the bigger picture a little bit. Certainly societal norms changed during the transition to the Iron Age, and yes in Greece people generally seem to have became disillusioned of a kind of central royal authority, but in my opinion this could only be a result of a complete failure of said royal authority to prevent a major disaster ... No one is saying that everything was wiped out during the Bronze Age Collapse. Life quickly went on afterwards, with new centers gradualy emerging, but the destruction that occured during a period of only a few decades in so many major urban centers around the Eastern Med. is truly unique in scale. But I agree. Probably presenting the "systems 'collapse", combined with raiding caused by this crisis in more detail, would have made for a more nuanced presentation of this period.
@@maximusseverus7040 Glad someone had already written what I came here to say, basically "This is not a reconfiguration of trade networks and adaptation of civilization".
No one slowly and gently forgets their own written language, like the Mycenean Greeks did, for centuries. Nor is it fair to say the Hittites gently and gradually collapsed while the Assyrians gently clung on after losing most of their territory. I'm sure Ramses III easily and gently fought a massive battle of the Nile to avert Egypt's destruction by the smooth, gradualistic Sea people. The Iron Age only began because the supply lines of Tin dried up. Very unfair portrayal.
I suspect that the undertones are repeated in modern times and as such people are inclined to work hard to see things differently. For instance, people living in bronze dominated empires would of refuted Iron as a second rate substitute to their existing Bronze and then to lose out to the new tech would then be very humiliating to say the least. Flash forward to the modern era where energy creation is the new Bronze/Iron, it can be said that fossil fuels are the Bronze and new types of energy creation is the Modern Iron. History is about to repeat itself, yet people are more worried about saving face then they are about taking real steps to stay relevant. Given time history will be re-written again and the new narrative will favour who ever is in power to write it at the time.
*Dorian greek invasion* happened to them. They destroyed Mycenean civilization, make them forget their own writing system, claim whatever left is theirs. Like Romans, they invaded greece, liked their gods, took them with different names.
@@AdGarden7438 Dorians moved to the south Greece 100 years later the Mycenean collapse. Dorians were also greeks (Achaeans) that were exiled in the mountains of greece. It is more likely that they moved south when Myceneans collapsed and they found the chance to do it rather that Dorians beat Myceneans themselves.
I would conjecture that the societies that had writing and survived in some form never actually lost their writing but with collapse of the governing structure and the trade system there was little use for writing or scarce resources were better spent on survival rather than record keeping. Further a society needs a certain level of surplus to support the training of scribes and the acquisition of writing materials.
Although I like the video, I do think that there was indeed some sort of a collapse. The idea behind the Bronze Age Collapse as it is proposed is that the interactions between big states as found in the Amarna letters stopped with the Hittite Empire falling, the Myceneans falling and the Middle Assyrian Empire being reduced significantly. Also Egypt being destabilized in such a way that they fell a short time later. The system that existed for a long time had in my opinion indeed collapsed. And yes, this happened over a longer time, it was not a quick fall, but a lot of historical events are being 'prepared' for a longer time. With this I mean that underlying social, economic and political changes that happened overtime are the bases of these major events and most of the time we have no historical record of these underlying changes. I personally subscribe to the system collapse, although it has its flaws. With a major drought occurring for 150 years, people are being pushed out of their infertile lands which creates a ripple effect with some going raiding and trying to settle lands elsewhere (see this in the constant nagging of 'brothers' to each other to return fleeing civilians of their respective kingdoms and the fact that the sea peoples brought their families with them) and the interconnectedness of the empires which made them more vulnerable to changes, I see a reasonable explanation for the collapse. For people who are interested, I thought 1177 BC from Eric Cline was a great book about this topic. Oh and you should have mentioned Ugarit and the raiders on their doorstep in the video, that is just awesome (while also showing the continuing strive around the Bronze Age world since their military might was fighting for the Hittites against invading peoples)
Ya I love this channel but this was something of a rare miss and I agree with you that the evidence does show lots of fire damage and arrow heads in many cities over a very short period. And there is the sos found in ugarit from the king claiming he seen the ships and they had already attacked other places. And there is some evidence of people retreating to high easily defendable smaller groups. Some of these have been found to be almost inaccessible except by one small and very steep trail and there is no reason for them to live in such a difficult place in such small groups.
I argue that it is both a system collapse and some outside forces that caused the Collapse. I believe there is no way raiders have the strength to topple down empires on their own, there must be something that have weakened these empires to the point them getting destroyed by raiders permanently is feasible hence the inclusion of the system collapse...
I can't believe you made this video and didn't talk about tin trade drying up. The levant area had little native tin and had to import it from other areas. The import of tin significantly diminished around that time. If you had no tin, then you had no bronze. If you can't make bronze, then you can't repair or make more bronze tools or weapons. Without those improved implements, you can't support the population that depended on them. This is one of the pillars of the bronze age collapse. Invasion, climate (both drought and earthquakes), and tin shortage. These things combined to cause governments and empires to fall, population decline, and a dearth of the bronze tools. This is the Bronze Age Collapse. Your narrow interpretation of what "collapse" means is the only way this video could be made. You even used the word "collapse" when talking about the fall of the Hittite Empire.
Most would argue the drying up of trade was an effect of the collapse rather than a cause, after all, since it was as vital as you say, they wouldn’t just stop importing it unless there was something that prevented it
@@benchild1339 Actually, major tin mines, which existed far to the east of the Levant and were presumably the main source of tin during that era, were determined by archaeologists to have been largely depleted at around this period.
@@benchild1339 As the levant recovered from the Collapse, they didn't just go back to makes bronze tool. That continued lack of bronze and need for durable tools led to the iron age.
As I understand in the whole of the Old World there are two major tin sites, Afghanistan and Cornwall; the trade from either would be very difficult and expensive, as with Afghan Lapis lazuli. Maybe there was an event in one or both of these places that caused a supply drop which exasperated other stresses.
Here's one thing I'd enjoy: Having multiple historytube accounts debate on the whole event. Did it really happen? Were the Sea Peoples from Sardinia? If not, then why did so many empires collapse at around the same time? For instance, Historia Civilis claims that the battle tactics of these Sea Peoples (a running horde) was the perfect counter to chariot warfare and that explains why the entire chariot arms race ended after the Collapse.
@@Bramble451 I think what Historia Civilis, means is that the ARMS RACE ended, not Chariot usage itself, he means that those nations stopped with the chariot arms race because it was futile against the running tactics of the Sea Peoples, he says it himself when talking about the inscription at Medinet Habu, he says that the Chariot is there, but not playing a prominent role, as compared to how everyone was using chariots before, and I do think that he would've known that Iron didn't immediately replace it, seeing as how when these things happen an institution or resource continues on from the collapsed state/culture, such as how when Rome collapsed Latin was still spoken natively by people and the Senate persisted
@@Bramble451 I never said anything about Drews’ theory, and I know that chariots were still in use, I said he probably knew that, he brung it up himself, mentioning chariots and how the Iceni used them during his Boudicca video, what he said was the chariot arms race ended and chariots took a backstage for a little while, obviously they still would’ve used them, but since they knew how they could be defeated, new innovations were made to prevent that, but they later just became obsolete in the east, have you even watched Historia Civilis’ video?
@@Bramble451 He literally never claimed they stopped using chariots in that video. He explained some reasons they were less effective against sea people's and how economic strain made building them more difficult and costly. This is why chariots stopped being a main component of the army and provided support for the Egyptian foot soldiers. Hint: this implies that cavalry was still in use to a lesser degree, and only in the context of the Egyptians anyway. Saying the Egyptians used chariots to a lesser degree is not the same as saying the Assyrians stopped using chariots. He never mentioned cavalry, and he never said they stopped being used cut and dry. Do you just have something against him? Or did something make you assume his ideas were 1:1 with this Robert Drew, and therefor it's bunk? Either way, I think you have a loose grasp of what his theory actually is. You're doing some really strange straw man nit-picking
I think it's important not to underplay the traditional narrative if you're going to argue the devil's advocate. For instance, the idea that 'the Sea Peoples' were just localised pirates is a pretty bold claim. Especially given it's widely accepted that one of the groups of Sea Peoples, the Peleset, became the Philistines, and settled in the Near East with a very distinctive and regionally alien material culture. Whether or not these invasions can be blamed for the Bronze Age Collapse or not, they certainly happened in some form. You're on more solid ground arguing for a complex series of interrelated factors initiating the cataclysm. Given the sheer number of historical polities that were wiped off the map however, it's certainly a sharp turning point in history. It feels like a collapse, the collapse of the first, fledgling international trade world. The civilizations that emerged afterwards in the early Iron Age were very different, as you alluded to.
Pretty notable that this video has more dislikes on it according to my webapp than I've seen on pretty much any YT video since they policy change on dislikes.
The bronze age was such a fascinating time period. The book "1177 B.C. : The Year Civilization Collapsed" is a great read for anyone wanting to read further on the subject.
It would be silly to think there was no such thing as collapse, because there was. Greece abandoned the writing system for nearly 400 years, and many palatial centers were, indeed, destroyed, maybe not by raiders, but by the citizens who were tired of their wanax. The Hittite Empire was in decline after 1200 BC and the capital was, not only abandoned, but sacked and burned by the Kaska tribe. Kassite Babylon saw its end when the elamited invaded and burned the whole city. Assyria shrunk in size, yet it survived because of its geographical location, and the egyptians managed to repel the sea people who, most likely, sacked Ugarit. There was a system collapse, many urban centers in Canaan were replaced by hilltop citadels, suggesting something did happen. You see the rise of the Phillistines, Israel greatest threat. Of course, weather conditions were not the best in those days. This is a good video, but in those things I think it failed to deliver.
2:40 why is the position of Pi-Ramesses, Memphis, and Ptolemaic off? All three cities were on the Nile river. Egypt also has way too much territory in the west.
The Middle Assyrian Empire (it's questionable if this period can be called an empire or not but that is a different debate) didn't expand during the Bronze Age Collapse, it expanded with the decline of the Mitanni earlier. Assyria retracted during the Bronze Age Collapse, and much of the early conquests during the Neo-Assyrian period during the Iron Age were often framed as retaking old Assyrian lands that had been lost. And it is still fair to call it the Bronze Age Collapse. The international system of the Late Bronze Age certainly collapse, the Hittites as a state cease to exist, and much of Anatolia entered a dark age so to say where there was no writing. In Greece as well writing stops until they adopt an alphabet again from the Pheoncians during the Iron Age (or maybe the Phrygians). In addition to Assyria retracting, Egypt did as well. It was a combination of factors that compounded and reinforced each other that lead to the Bronze Age collapse. Drought and famine, natural disasters, the Sea Raiders, all played a role in the collapse of the systems that supported the Late Bronze Age.
Actually, no. The Bronze Age Collapse was around 1200 BC, and the Middle Assyrian Empire was stable, or even expanding, right down to the reign of Tiglath-Pileser I, who died around 1075 BC. Assyria was doing much better than pretty much everyone else for a full century and more after the Collapse.
@@thomasrinschler6783 at around 1200 BC the Middle Assyrian state fell into a period of internal conflicts leading to a decline and retraction. Tiglath-Pileser I reconquered much of that territory and expanding a bit as well, but that was soon lost as well. The Middle Assyrian state had reached its greatest extent just before the LBC and then retracted, expanded again, before finally retracting even more.
What about all the fire damage and arrow heads that were found in many cities such as ugarit and hattusa that were all found to have happened over a period of less than 100 or even 50 years for many palace complexes? And the sos messages found in ugarit that spoke of seeing ships and claiming these invaders had already done damage to their lands? I understand it was a combination of many factors but it still seems to me that one of them factors were unknown "sea peoples" invading and burning many of the coastal palaces and cities. There is also archeological evidence of people retreating to higher more defendable and smaller villages that were very hard to access and very easy to defend from lots of people by very few similar to thermopoly but on a smaller scale. I love your channels but this is somewhat of a rare miss. All in all you consistently nail it though so I cant hold this against you guys and thank you for the amazing channels.
So one city getting destroyed is a total collapse. Yes Ugarit got rekt by an enemy invasion, but people were fighting all the time. It's like saying there was a nuclear age collpase between 1950 and 2020, because the Soviet Union disappeared from the map. The problem with the bronze age collapse is not the lack of evidence for destruction. The problem is that 19th century historians rather arbitrarily picked out a period and dubbed it as a "collapse".
they were likely the consequence of the collapse rather then the cause, like the killing of a dictator is the end instead of the starting of a rebellion.
@@hgkghkhgkgh8378 He mentiones 'many cities', names two specifically, and the only 'one' you choose to pick was an actual sos message from that one city that we found, while there could have been many more messages like this one. There ARE more cities destroyed, and in a shorter timespan then in the time before or after. Oh, and you got a point about the nuclear age collapse: Czechoslovakia vanished from the map, as did Yugoslavia and there was something about Sudan and Yemen splitting apart too. The DDR and BRD are nowhere to be found either, just like North Vietnam and South Vietnam. Maybe you generalized too much on your example, just like you did in your argument?
Hi, I do not know where did you find that theory but it contradicts to known historic and archeology data. ALL cities in Canaan were destroyed or abandoned, and the population left. For ~100 years, this quite important terrirory remained practically uninhabited. And so on and on. The pure facts of collapse are established quite reliably. The collapse reasons are not known.
@@frenchguitarguy1091 My data comes from a series of lectures, ~3 yo, on the recent advances in Israel archeology, read by lead archeologists themselves. BTW, there were no walled cities in Canaan between, say, 1450BC and 1250BC - Egypt forbidden walls. That includes Jerusalem.
This is an ok discussion on the the Bronze Age collapse, but it is so hurried and you make it seem like things weren't that bad. Entire regions of the Bronze Age Levant and Greece lost basic record keeping and seemingly literacy collapsed. This video is too generalized.
One way to make a career as a historian ist to "question the narrative". Eventually it will be "questioning the narrative" to argue that the term "collapse" is entirely warranted (and that the dark ages were, in fact, quite dark).
I found the ending vague, especially in comparison to the animation of trade routes earlier. I would have liked to see a map of what cities and trade networks survived, and perhaps what differentiated the survivors. Also, how crucial to the re-emergence of empires was iron? What determined the length of the interregnum between the bronze and iron ages? Couldn't empires have been re-established based on the old trading networks once the Sea Peoples got tired of raiding? Or did the climate need to shift back?
The ending is vague because they're trying to argue the point that there was no collapse. The trade routes are not mentioned, because they were diminished greatly, and trade between states was wholly uncommon. There was a collapse of trade networks, which implies general collapse, which runs against their thesis, so it's unmentioned. Any talk of the survivors would show the woeful state they were reduced to, thus implying a collapse, which would also go against their thesis. Assyria, Elam, and Egypt all survived as a state, though a sickly one. Egypt had lost most of its power, which effectively freed the Phoenicians from their control. Assyria held its territory for a bit, but was too weak to hold it without great effort. It was this weakened Assyria that destroyed Elam. The re-emergence of trade in the Mediterranean was largely thanks to the Phoenicians and the rise of Carthage, as evidenced by the widespread adoption of their alphabet, which was passed on to us through the greeks and romans. That's another hint for how things went down: not only did Greece lose its writing, but it had to be re-taught by a civilization That didn't even exist independently yet when they fell. That's part of what determined the length of the interregnum, a new player had to come in to remind everyone how to trade and communicate with each other while the only survivors were too busy trying to not die from revolt. Long story short: it's incredibly difficult to argue there was no collapse, and thus a lot of key details were left out.
@@carterghill Do we know when record-keeping shifted away from clay tablets to leaves or skins? I haven't been able to find any information on this in a cursory search. I did find a comment that clay tablets were preserved by the burning of buildings, and it occurred to me that other materials could simply vanish. I surmise cuneiform requires wet clay and a triangular stylus while paper or vellum would more likely use brushes or pointy sticks, so I could attribute the use of new writing systems to a change in storage medium. I somewhat facetiously view this interregnum as being caused by new management, OS upgrade, and lack of retention of IT personnel, and wonder if there wasn't also an upgrade to (more flammable) storage media as well. So even if the civilizations had persisted, their records (like the Sybelline Books) may not.
@@icollectstories5702 Well the Greeks got papyrus from Phoenician traders I believe, but I'm not sure when clay stopped being used all around. Tablets would've stopped being used in Greece certainly after the collapse, considering they lost their language, then converted to papyrus when they began writing again since they learned their new alphabet from Phoenicia too. Clay probably kept being used in Persia until the Hellenic age
Shang dynasty, India subcontinents also fell near these times. The nomadic groups did better than sedentary people during the bronze age collapse period. One must review global correlation with causation.
Exactly.I was disappointed that Indian and Chinese civilizations were ignored in this video but unlike the Mediterranean civilizations, China and India had a slower and more gradual transition from Bronze to Iron age.As far as I know, iron was introduced to China during the Zhou dynasty (around 1050-250 BC) but even later, in the Han dynasty (around 200 BC-221 CE), bronze weapons were still used alongside iron weapons.I don't know much about India but at least for China, the change from Bronze to Iron Age was very different from that in the Near East.
@@deacudaniel1635 in india the mahjanpada or 16 great states were started , and later on larger empires further muslim invasions for 600 years, in 10th century, then 180 years of colonial rule
Amazing video as always K&G but just a small note here. Your maps need to coordinate with the time period and should not include anachronistic elements. For example since we are talking about the Bronze Age ( ca 1300 BC ) you shouldn’t include cities that ere founded later such as Byzantium (659 BC ) or Ptolemais ( founded by the Ptolemaic dynasty in the 3rd century BC ) . Keep up with your standing work 💪💪
Pretty good lectures by Eric Cline are easily found as well, author of 1177bc. Also check out History Time. His videos are longer deep dives. Also, History with Cy is a great channel for pre-bronze age. I'm sure he's done some stuff on the collapse as well. As others have said, Dan Davis. For me, he's the best of the bunch.
@@froggystyle642 It would be funny if Eric Cline had Dutch ancestors and would be called Eric De Cline. You know, as an expert for the decline of the bronze age.
Okay but it's still bizarre that multiple civilisations just crumbled or had gone through major shakeups _in the same time period._ Some warp heckery was afoot.
The extreme interconnectivity and reliance on foreign trade meant that a couple of crises in quick sucession could send the whole region spiraling out of control and collapse in a domino-like effect. These states were very specialized in their production and were fully dependent on continuous trade with their neighbours. The radical changes to these societies were adaptations to the new reality of the eastern Mediterranean, when the old systems failed to withstand the changes.
I guess it depends on how we define "collapse". There certaintly was a decline or stagnation for most of civilisations at the time. Civilisations come and go all the time, but the fact that it happened for many civilisations at the same time makes it deserving of being called a "collapse" in my book.
I'd definitely call it a collapse. It's similar to how after the Western Roman Empire collapsed, it wasn't exactly the end of civilization in Europe, but it did put a lot of things on pause, as for centuries the continent was more focused on survival rather than advancing or learning, etc. The same happened during the Bronze Age Collapse, but I think it was even longer
Yes obviously - lots of kingdoms disappeared in a short period of time. Was it entirely due to the "sea peoples" likely no - the invasions of the sea peoples was likely a result of the climatic changes at the time that led ot the collapse, was it a complete collapse, no the Assyrians and the Egyptians survivied it but it did destroy the system that had existed before and as systems reformed it would not be the same...
I love your channel! It's great material for history enthusiasts. I was delighted when you used aloud for your video on languages. I thought I'd finally be able to share your content with my father, who speaks only Portuguese. Is there a reason for you not using aloud in other videos? I'm sure you'd have a big audience here in Brazil.
At some point one of the videos in this channel had to be bad, I guess... I won't go over the maps, which are a bit questionable, especially the appearance of lydia and with those borders, together with the hittite empire... but more importantly, the bronze age collapse has plenty of areas that can be speculated upon, but not the fact that is was an actual collapse. Contrary to what the video says, we do have the evidence. Cities razed or abandoned, the hittite empire falling, the lack of written material in areas that previously had plenty of it, and many other things all occurring in the span of a few decades in different regions. A combination of things turned greece and anatolia upside down and affected the nearby regions too, all in the span of a generation or two. It's clearly not a simple "invasion", but it still was a radical change.
I would enjoy more future videos on the various cultures of this time period. Thank you for another interesting video here too! I do enjoy the ancient history vids. Stay well out there everybody, and God bless you, friends. ✝️ :)
When I see maps like in this video I start to cringe out and call for Inquisition to burn that map author on the stake, preferably with Greek Fire. Love Kings and Generals as an old subscriber since this channel was small, but that maps sometimes... I just want to blind myself out like in the good byzantine fashion of old.
Yeah, the maps aren't the best, especially the cities they put on them, but it gives a general idea of what they're talking about and gets the point across, at least
@@kingmenelaus7083 they have enough good maps most of the time, but this river Nile and cities in the middle of desert, man... It is not that hard to take an existing map, it is not mandatory to draw one from mind.
Thank you for this episode, iv resently got to this point in my studies, it's like you red my mind, or recently saw iv been listening to certain videos in my sleep 😂 thank you. 🙏
I thought it was the late bronze age eruption of Santorini, leading to earthquakes and climate change in greece, turning the warlike Mycenaean into the sea people who disrupted the trade networks and resulting in many city states that rely on trade to fail and its people to adapt a more sustenance based economy and not international trade.
I'm sorry but the images mostly depict Classical Greece and not the Bronze Age. I know we now tend to question everything and "deconstruct" every concept, but an utter loss of economic, political and literary consistency, whether local or widespread, is a collapse. Even if not total, and even if we see eventual recovery in some areas, decline of major languages and written culture is what we would normally consider a collapse. And what happened during the Bronze Age Collapse in the Eastern Mediterranean, in a matter of sheer scale, barely has happened anywhere else except for the collapse of indigenous cultures in America during the first two centuries after the arrival of Columbus.
Iron Age collapse is like this phrase “ if my neighbor losses there job it’s a recession, if I lose my job it’s a depression” hitites we’re in collapse and other powerful nation took a hit but we’re able to pull thru
"we stopped using palaces" while life continues as usual in the archeological record makes me believe it's more a leadership/elite crisis not a societal collapse from below.
This episode has the BEST segue to the sponsor ad...like EVER. It has beaten the ads for NordVPN and Manscaped (which used to be my number 1 & 2 respectively)...kudos K&G team!!
@@JohnnyElRed No, it was the Sapient Reptilians that were underground for millions of years... They only destroyed these civilizations when someone discovered them.
I dont really agree with the conclusion of this video but the fact that someone wants to discuss the topic and has the guts to go against tranditional narrative is usually positive imho. So good job on the video and keep up the good work. Ancient history is where i personally want this channel to go so :thumbs up:
That’s what I love about history, we are always discovering new information that constantly keeps shaping history keeping the great never ending story going. Thanks kings for keeping the story told. 👍
I love you guys dearly but this was an utterly unconvincing presentation and it did not address any of the strongest evidence suggesting total catastrophic collapse, especially in the case of the Mycaneans
I don't think that there's a better, complete history channel like this one on TH-cam. I truly appreciate that you take your time to talk about diverse issues, or subjects.
@@mountainmanmike1014 My wrong?? Sorry sir, I do not own anything called wrong. Now, if you meant to say that I was wrong, you need to explain yourself.
All you blessed souls that are a team that makes these montages happens . Your efforts are appreciated. Blessings be upon you in real life . Your word and world wide effort is and has been appreciated. Sorrow is not be ignored but even in our modern age it's just a little bit of history repeating. Anyhow have a nice day and most importantly stay free
Love the channel, can I just point out one quick grammar correction: If you say "with whom" you don't need to add the "with" at the end of the clause. I.e. "With whom they interacted" not "with whom they interacted with". It's like nails on a chalkboard every time I hear it.
I just wonder what if our society just collapse in such a manner that we might not even get a chance of understanding what actually happened. People in our time always boast about our technology but how many times has it occurred when people were utmost prepared but still lost everything.
Very often a collapse is only understood as such centuries after the fact. The fall of the western roman empire was not widely registered as such in texts before centuries afterwards. Most people who were living at the time considered the death of Romulus Augustus and the ostrogoth rule as a change in leadership, violent for sure but did not think of it as the fall of the empire.
I think its mor elikely to accour today then in ancient times since we are much dependent on each other for food, clothing, shelter and even tools. Back in the day the peasants had to do many things themself. One stronger solar erruption (like in 1850) and we have way bigger problem then who will be the next old men in parlament.
I agree with your assessment the "sea peoples" did not cause what we term the "Bronze Age Collapse". That said, the video is vague and unconvincing. IMO, the primary reason was environmental and it was widespread enough to near-simultaneously affect the entire Mediterranean and Mesopotamian regions. Lastly: I love ancient history. Whether I agree with the material or not, your videos on that period are why I subscribe to this channel.
I was wondering if the dates are to close to when Thera massively erupted. It destroyed most of the island, it had to be big. So I wonder if it started the downhill spire, that devastated all the Mediterranean.
Yes and also the cities of Egypt are put in the wrong position, and its territories are too big, Egypt never conquered Cyrenaica untill it was under the Ptolemies, there are some errors in the map, is a little frustrating, but at least the informations are good
Very good work and amazing storytelling, but as a Greek i grew learning that for centuries after Mycenaean collapse we have not a single evidence of writing or skill pottery, actually pottery found after Mycenaean collapse is described as pre-archaic based of the artisan skills, like they tried to create something that they found and copy it rather as a skill passed on
I very much enjoyed this video off the back of many standard bronze age collapse videos and the hypothesis you put forward here and I am inclined to agree with, I think the Odyssey provides circumstantial evidence to the raids of cities etc - Ithaca is described as a standard sedentary Greek society primarily based on agriculture that finds it totally acceptable, indeed admirable, to supplement its economy with piracy.
The idea about cities still having people when some participated in the raids is a quite simplified. Many of those places did continue, but also grew much much smaller, signifying a large population drop
Starting at 2:25, it seems there is a localization problem with the Egyptian cities. Weren't Pelusium, Ptolemais, Pi'Ramesses, Memphis and Heliopolis ON, or next to, the Nile?
Didn’t mention the earth cooling due to volcanic activity. Didn’t mention trade of tin broken. ‘You need tin to make bronze-you need bronze to till areas of farmland’. Which are the reasons for Bronze Age collapse
I wonder if with the centuries, this seemingly starting process of "deglobalization" we are living now due to the Ukranian war, will be known as another collapse. And what would this age be called then? "The Oil Age"? "The Combustion Age"?
The more advanced a civilization is and the more information it has accumulated, the more catastrophic the event that brings it down should be. We are not there yet.
there is enough tensile strength in modern civilization that a large war won't collapse it, it would take someone actually launching nukes or terrible disasters to truly start showing cracks. Armageddon would probably shatter the age thought.
@@joshuastarkloff9602 thats what we call it currently. People 100's of years in the future may not be as charitable, or may find something to be a more unifying narrative than the introduction of the internet
Our civilizations didn't collapse after WW1 and 2. And those situations were a lot worse than what we are going through. The collapse is not there yet. We would need disasters even a lot worse than WW2 on a world scale to bring us down.
Start building your ideal daily routine 💪 The first 100 people who click on the link will get a FREE week trial and 25% OFF 🎁 Fabulous Premium ➡ thefab.co/kingsandgenerals3
Please continue the series on crime syndicates. Please make a video about the history of the Russian mafia next, and then the Yakuza
Overall great video. One request though. If you guys could start to put your sources in the description in all of your future videos that would be great. You really should be giving written credit to the sources you use.
Is it possible to got Arabic subtitles for your documentaries??
I'm really interested
It's all great, but the map for Egypt is very wrong. Nevertheless, thank you for your work ❤️
LOL that "Age of Empires" Thumbnail
For advanced literate civilizations like Mycenaeans and Minoans losing completely the ability to write for over 3 centuries, i don't think is just an age of adaptation. Something significantly destructive must had took place which led to this phenomenon. Civilizations won't stop writing out of the blue.
@@colinpass88 could you explain the causation of what seems to me, inexplicable
I beg to differ: The Minoans and Mycenaeans were palatial cultures. They didn't write diaries and fan-fiction - at least not into clay. The texts from that period which have been preserved for us were bureaucratic. They were a direct product of the monarchs staff. If that political system vanishes - so will their lists, messages and so on. And keep in mind that in a society where there's longer a king who needs scribes, there will be nobody who learns writing just for the sport of it - or their literary products are only preserved on perishable materials like wood. Ancient civilizations were never literalized through and through - the technique always was part of elite culture.
I think the Eruption of Thera is what triggered the collapse. Initially. Lots of destruction.
Only a very select minority were literate. It wouldn’t take that serious of a crisis to wipe out the scribal class which then cascades into a system collapse
@@ryanb9749 from what I’ve seen the dates don’t quite line up for that hypothesis
The Bronze Age Collapse is nowadays described by archaeologists and historians, as a "systems collapse". Drought and failed crops caused famine, while the depletion of the tin mines to the east, which is essential to produce bronze (mixed with copper) made bronze, which was the most widely used material of the time (used for making weapons and tools) scarce and expensive.
However, the Sea Peoples most certainly existed and caused major catastrophies. Yes they were the result, not the cause of the aformentioned resources crisis, but it was those groups that caused the destruction of most of the major centers around the eastern Mediterranean. The Egyptian records are explicit in this and there is no reason for the Egyptians to have misrepresented something like this. That is not to say that they were a single coordinating group, but there is no reason to rule out the possibility of at least some of those groups working together.
And of course there is the archaeological evidence. The Mycenaean palace centers (Mycenae, Pylos etc.) were the first to be destroyed. Possible causes are a combination of at least some of the following: social unrest due to famine, dynastic disputes and even possible discontent from what seems to have been a military defeat by the Hittites in Asia Minor, the sharp rise of slaves that could have revolted, and a possible invasion of northern tribes (Dorians, which however probably occured later), as well as pirates from the west.The Mycenaeans were a sea-faring people and it is natural that many would have fled the catastrophy using their ships and resorted to piracy and looting as a form of sustenance.
Shortly afterwards the Hittite capital Hattusa is destroyed and the Hittite kingdom collapses due to invasions from the Kaskians probably. Unrest engulfs Anatolia and in the same way, several coastal peoples flee by means of the sea as well.
Raiders from the western Mediterranean could have joined these motley groups of pirates and invaders as well.
This explains the fact that several of the names of the sea peoples as reported by the Egyptians:Denien, Sekelesh, Serden, Luka, resemble familiar names such as Danaans (an ealy name of the Greek people), Sicelians, Sardenians, Lycians (in Asia Minor).
But what essentialy proves (at least in my eyes) the above, is that the Egyptians mention that after they defeated the Sea peoples, they resettled a group of them into what came to be known later as Palestine. Relatively recent archaological excavations into early Philistine settlements have unearthed structures that are essentially identical to Mycenaean structures (such as what is unmistakeably a 'megaron' palace).
It seems that the Philistines were a mixture of these raiders from somewhere in the Aegean or Eastern Med. and local Semitic people, who were the majority in the area of course, thus we see in archaeology a gradual assimilation of Philistine culture with the surrounding Semitic ones, in the following centuries.
The transition to a more regionalized trade that indeed happened in some areas in the Mediterranean does not mean that there weren't events which collectively fit the description of "collapse", that happened within a few decades and resulted in the destruction of ALL civilisations of the Med. aside Egypt.
It is not by chance that the studies that support the theory of a more gradual transition were done in places such Euboea, which were relatively far away from the centers of power. On the contrary, the rise of Euboean trade and others (which of course could not be compared in magnitude to the previous Mycenaean ones) suggests there was a huge vacuum created suddenly, by what could only have been an event classified as destruction, that was filled to an extent by more regional powers.
To me this simply shows that life went on after the collapse, especially in more remote areas that might not have experienced the same levels of devastation.
Following the collapse, writting disappeared within the Greek world for 3 centuries, while urban centers of notable size did not appear also for centuriesin Greece. It is difficult to see how a gradual transition could have resulted in such a backwards development.
I was going to write something but you basically summed up everything there was to say, man. It's a rare miss by this channel but a miss nonetheless. We can also add up the fact that pottery had regressed notably and many letters that were written at the time of cities asking for their king's help in fighting this migration and piracy. Ramesses III had to fight to keep his kingdom but even then they lost the vast majority of their territory in the Levant and people fled to places that were far form the coast. This is not a reconfiguration of trade networks and adaptation of civilization
@@maximusseverus7040 Thanks man. While I also do not generally agree with this gradual transition type of theory presented in this video, I do not blame the channel. They seem to follow closely the new emerging archaeological theories and this one was published a few years back, concentrating on the transformation of trade and societies during that period.
While the localized research is sound, I believe they missed the bigger picture a little bit. Certainly societal norms changed during the transition to the Iron Age, and yes in Greece people generally seem to have became disillusioned of a kind of central royal authority, but in my opinion this could only be a result of a complete failure of said royal authority to prevent a major disaster ...
No one is saying that everything was wiped out during the Bronze Age Collapse. Life quickly went on afterwards, with new centers gradualy emerging, but the destruction that occured during a period of only a few decades in so many major urban centers around the Eastern Med. is truly unique in scale.
But I agree. Probably presenting the "systems 'collapse", combined with raiding caused by this crisis in more detail, would have made for a more nuanced presentation of this period.
Excellent summary
@@maximusseverus7040 Glad someone had already written what I came here to say, basically "This is not a reconfiguration of trade networks and adaptation of civilization".
No one slowly and gently forgets their own written language, like the Mycenean Greeks did, for centuries. Nor is it fair to say the Hittites gently and gradually collapsed while the Assyrians gently clung on after losing most of their territory. I'm sure Ramses III easily and gently fought a massive battle of the Nile to avert Egypt's destruction by the smooth, gradualistic Sea people. The Iron Age only began because the supply lines of Tin dried up. Very unfair portrayal.
I suspect that the undertones are repeated in modern times and as such people are inclined to work hard to see things differently.
For instance, people living in bronze dominated empires would of refuted Iron as a second rate substitute to their existing Bronze and then to lose out to the new tech would then be very humiliating to say the least.
Flash forward to the modern era where energy creation is the new Bronze/Iron, it can be said that fossil fuels are the Bronze and new types of energy creation is the Modern Iron. History is about to repeat itself, yet people are more worried about saving face then they are about taking real steps to stay relevant.
Given time history will be re-written again and the new narrative will favour who ever is in power to write it at the time.
*Dorian greek invasion* happened to them. They destroyed Mycenean civilization, make them forget their own writing system, claim whatever left is theirs. Like Romans, they invaded greece, liked their gods, took them with different names.
@@AdGarden7438 Greek influence far predates Roman invasion of the city states lol...
@@AdGarden7438 Dorians moved to the south Greece 100 years later the Mycenean collapse. Dorians were also greeks (Achaeans) that were exiled in the mountains of greece. It is more likely that they moved south when Myceneans collapsed and they found the chance to do it rather that Dorians beat Myceneans themselves.
I would conjecture that the societies that had writing and survived in some form never actually lost their writing but with collapse of the governing structure and the trade system there was little use for writing or scarce resources were better spent on survival rather than record keeping. Further a society needs a certain level of surplus to support the training of scribes and the acquisition of writing materials.
Although I like the video, I do think that there was indeed some sort of a collapse. The idea behind the Bronze Age Collapse as it is proposed is that the interactions between big states as found in the Amarna letters stopped with the Hittite Empire falling, the Myceneans falling and the Middle Assyrian Empire being reduced significantly. Also Egypt being destabilized in such a way that they fell a short time later. The system that existed for a long time had in my opinion indeed collapsed. And yes, this happened over a longer time, it was not a quick fall, but a lot of historical events are being 'prepared' for a longer time. With this I mean that underlying social, economic and political changes that happened overtime are the bases of these major events and most of the time we have no historical record of these underlying changes.
I personally subscribe to the system collapse, although it has its flaws. With a major drought occurring for 150 years, people are being pushed out of their infertile lands which creates a ripple effect with some going raiding and trying to settle lands elsewhere (see this in the constant nagging of 'brothers' to each other to return fleeing civilians of their respective kingdoms and the fact that the sea peoples brought their families with them) and the interconnectedness of the empires which made them more vulnerable to changes, I see a reasonable explanation for the collapse. For people who are interested, I thought 1177 BC from Eric Cline was a great book about this topic.
Oh and you should have mentioned Ugarit and the raiders on their doorstep in the video, that is just awesome (while also showing the continuing strive around the Bronze Age world since their military might was fighting for the Hittites against invading peoples)
Agreed ✊🏾
Ya I love this channel but this was something of a rare miss and I agree with you that the evidence does show lots of fire damage and arrow heads in many cities over a very short period. And there is the sos found in ugarit from the king claiming he seen the ships and they had already attacked other places. And there is some evidence of people retreating to high easily defendable smaller groups. Some of these have been found to be almost inaccessible except by one small and very steep trail and there is no reason for them to live in such a difficult place in such small groups.
K&G is a Reddit pseud
I argue that it is both a system collapse and some outside forces that caused the Collapse. I believe there is no way raiders have the strength to topple down empires on their own, there must be something that have weakened these empires to the point them getting destroyed by raiders permanently is feasible hence the inclusion of the system collapse...
Not that it matters, this “collapse” is only a mediterranean thing. The European and Asian civilizations continued just fine.
I am so glad that someone used this marvelous “The Age of Empires” cover.
Wooloolooloo
Originality be damned.
@@olorin4317 and completely out of time.
@@fatalpenguinful That boy ain't right
I can't believe you made this video and didn't talk about tin trade drying up. The levant area had little native tin and had to import it from other areas. The import of tin significantly diminished around that time. If you had no tin, then you had no bronze. If you can't make bronze, then you can't repair or make more bronze tools or weapons. Without those improved implements, you can't support the population that depended on them. This is one of the pillars of the bronze age collapse. Invasion, climate (both drought and earthquakes), and tin shortage.
These things combined to cause governments and empires to fall, population decline, and a dearth of the bronze tools. This is the Bronze Age Collapse.
Your narrow interpretation of what "collapse" means is the only way this video could be made. You even used the word "collapse" when talking about the fall of the Hittite Empire.
Most would argue the drying up of trade was an effect of the collapse rather than a cause, after all, since it was as vital as you say, they wouldn’t just stop importing it unless there was something that prevented it
@@benchild1339 My understanding is that tin stopped coming in, but we don't yet know why.
@@benchild1339 Actually, major tin mines, which existed far to the east of the Levant and were presumably the main source of tin during that era, were determined by archaeologists to have been largely depleted at around this period.
@@benchild1339 As the levant recovered from the Collapse, they didn't just go back to makes bronze tool. That continued lack of bronze and need for durable tools led to the iron age.
As I understand in the whole of the Old World there are two major tin sites, Afghanistan and Cornwall; the trade from either would be very difficult and expensive, as with Afghan Lapis lazuli.
Maybe there was an event in one or both of these places that caused a supply drop which exasperated other stresses.
Here's one thing I'd enjoy: Having multiple historytube accounts debate on the whole event.
Did it really happen? Were the Sea Peoples from Sardinia? If not, then why did so many empires collapse at around the same time?
For instance, Historia Civilis claims that the battle tactics of these Sea Peoples (a running horde) was the perfect counter to chariot warfare and that explains why the entire chariot arms race ended after the Collapse.
@@Bramble451 I think what Historia Civilis, means is that the ARMS RACE ended, not Chariot usage itself, he means that those nations stopped with the chariot arms race because it was futile against the running tactics of the Sea Peoples, he says it himself when talking about the inscription at Medinet Habu, he says that the Chariot is there, but not playing a prominent role, as compared to how everyone was using chariots before, and I do think that he would've known that Iron didn't immediately replace it, seeing as how when these things happen an institution or resource continues on from the collapsed state/culture, such as how when Rome collapsed Latin was still spoken natively by people and the Senate persisted
@@Bramble451 I never said anything about Drews’ theory, and I know that chariots were still in use, I said he probably knew that, he brung it up himself, mentioning chariots and how the Iceni used them during his Boudicca video, what he said was the chariot arms race ended and chariots took a backstage for a little while, obviously they still would’ve used them, but since they knew how they could be defeated, new innovations were made to prevent that, but they later just became obsolete in the east, have you even watched Historia Civilis’ video?
@@Bramble451 He literally never claimed they stopped using chariots in that video. He explained some reasons they were less effective against sea people's and how economic strain made building them more difficult and costly. This is why chariots stopped being a main component of the army and provided support for the Egyptian foot soldiers. Hint: this implies that cavalry was still in use to a lesser degree, and only in the context of the Egyptians anyway. Saying the Egyptians used chariots to a lesser degree is not the same as saying the Assyrians stopped using chariots. He never mentioned cavalry, and he never said they stopped being used cut and dry.
Do you just have something against him? Or did something make you assume his ideas were 1:1 with this Robert Drew, and therefor it's bunk? Either way, I think you have a loose grasp of what his theory actually is. You're doing some really strange straw man nit-picking
@@Bramble451 Interesting. Thanks for that bit of info.
I think it's important not to underplay the traditional narrative if you're going to argue the devil's advocate.
For instance, the idea that 'the Sea Peoples' were just localised pirates is a pretty bold claim. Especially given it's widely accepted that one of the groups of Sea Peoples, the Peleset, became the Philistines, and settled in the Near East with a very distinctive and regionally alien material culture. Whether or not these invasions can be blamed for the Bronze Age Collapse or not, they certainly happened in some form.
You're on more solid ground arguing for a complex series of interrelated factors initiating the cataclysm. Given the sheer number of historical polities that were wiped off the map however, it's certainly a sharp turning point in history. It feels like a collapse, the collapse of the first, fledgling international trade world. The civilizations that emerged afterwards in the early Iron Age were very different, as you alluded to.
Extra credits video series on the bronze age collapse is very informative
Pretty notable that this video has more dislikes on it according to my webapp than I've seen on pretty much any YT video since they policy change on dislikes.
This should be the top comment.
Regarding dislikes: prnt.sc/I370B3QvGlT_ I think the extension used to see the dislike numbers tends to inflate them. What does it show for you, Pax?
@@KingsandGenerals 432 at the time of this comment.
I don't use that extension.
The bronze age was such a fascinating time period. The book "1177 B.C. : The Year Civilization Collapsed" is a great read for anyone wanting to read further on the subject.
Dr Eric Kline wrote that book and it was fantastic. I thought I was the only one that read it.
@@sidekick6371 nope, I read it as well. I have it in my history book collection and it was a great read.
It would be silly to think there was no such thing as collapse, because there was.
Greece abandoned the writing system for nearly 400 years, and many palatial centers were, indeed, destroyed, maybe not by raiders, but by the citizens who were tired of their wanax.
The Hittite Empire was in decline after 1200 BC and the capital was, not only abandoned, but sacked and burned by the Kaska tribe.
Kassite Babylon saw its end when the elamited invaded and burned the whole city.
Assyria shrunk in size, yet it survived because of its geographical location, and the egyptians managed to repel the sea people who, most likely, sacked Ugarit.
There was a system collapse, many urban centers in Canaan were replaced by hilltop citadels, suggesting something did happen. You see the rise of the Phillistines, Israel greatest threat.
Of course, weather conditions were not the best in those days. This is a good video, but in those things I think it failed to deliver.
2:40 why is the position of Pi-Ramesses, Memphis, and Ptolemaic off? All three cities were on the Nile river. Egypt also has way too much territory in the west.
The Middle Assyrian Empire (it's questionable if this period can be called an empire or not but that is a different debate) didn't expand during the Bronze Age Collapse, it expanded with the decline of the Mitanni earlier. Assyria retracted during the Bronze Age Collapse, and much of the early conquests during the Neo-Assyrian period during the Iron Age were often framed as retaking old Assyrian lands that had been lost. And it is still fair to call it the Bronze Age Collapse. The international system of the Late Bronze Age certainly collapse, the Hittites as a state cease to exist, and much of Anatolia entered a dark age so to say where there was no writing. In Greece as well writing stops until they adopt an alphabet again from the Pheoncians during the Iron Age (or maybe the Phrygians). In addition to Assyria retracting, Egypt did as well. It was a combination of factors that compounded and reinforced each other that lead to the Bronze Age collapse. Drought and famine, natural disasters, the Sea Raiders, all played a role in the collapse of the systems that supported the Late Bronze Age.
Actually, no. The Bronze Age Collapse was around 1200 BC, and the Middle Assyrian Empire was stable, or even expanding, right down to the reign of Tiglath-Pileser I, who died around 1075 BC. Assyria was doing much better than pretty much everyone else for a full century and more after the Collapse.
@@thomasrinschler6783 at around 1200 BC the Middle Assyrian state fell into a period of internal conflicts leading to a decline and retraction. Tiglath-Pileser I reconquered much of that territory and expanding a bit as well, but that was soon lost as well. The Middle Assyrian state had reached its greatest extent just before the LBC and then retracted, expanded again, before finally retracting even more.
What about all the fire damage and arrow heads that were found in many cities such as ugarit and hattusa that were all found to have happened over a period of less than 100 or even 50 years for many palace complexes? And the sos messages found in ugarit that spoke of seeing ships and claiming these invaders had already done damage to their lands? I understand it was a combination of many factors but it still seems to me that one of them factors were unknown "sea peoples" invading and burning many of the coastal palaces and cities. There is also archeological evidence of people retreating to higher more defendable and smaller villages that were very hard to access and very easy to defend from lots of people by very few similar to thermopoly but on a smaller scale. I love your channels but this is somewhat of a rare miss. All in all you consistently nail it though so I cant hold this against you guys and thank you for the amazing channels.
So one city getting destroyed is a total collapse. Yes Ugarit got rekt by an enemy invasion, but people were fighting all the time. It's like saying there was a nuclear age collpase between 1950 and 2020, because the Soviet Union disappeared from the map. The problem with the bronze age collapse is not the lack of evidence for destruction. The problem is that 19th century historians rather arbitrarily picked out a period and dubbed it as a "collapse".
they were likely the consequence of the collapse rather then the cause, like the killing of a dictator is the end instead of the starting of a rebellion.
@@hgkghkhgkgh8378 He mentiones 'many cities', names two specifically, and the only 'one' you choose to pick was an actual sos message from that one city that we found, while there could have been many more messages like this one. There ARE more cities destroyed, and in a shorter timespan then in the time before or after.
Oh, and you got a point about the nuclear age collapse: Czechoslovakia vanished from the map, as did Yugoslavia and there was something about Sudan and Yemen splitting apart too. The DDR and BRD are nowhere to be found either, just like North Vietnam and South Vietnam.
Maybe you generalized too much on your example, just like you did in your argument?
@@hgkghkhgkgh8378 Except Egyptian sources tell us they were attacked by Sea peoples multiple times around the same time.
@@Martin-ki8jv You mean Merneptah bragging about his victories?
Hi, I do not know where did you find that theory but it contradicts to known historic and archeology data. ALL cities in Canaan were destroyed or abandoned, and the population left. For ~100 years, this quite important terrirory remained practically uninhabited. And so on and on. The pure facts of collapse are established quite reliably. The collapse reasons are not known.
@@frenchguitarguy1091 My data comes from a series of lectures, ~3 yo, on the recent advances in Israel archeology, read by lead archeologists themselves. BTW, there were no walled cities in Canaan between, say, 1450BC and 1250BC - Egypt forbidden walls. That includes Jerusalem.
This is an ok discussion on the the Bronze Age collapse, but it is so hurried and you make it seem like things weren't that bad. Entire regions of the Bronze Age Levant and Greece lost basic record keeping and seemingly literacy collapsed. This video is too generalized.
The Age of Empires thumbnail is lovely.
Long ago, the bronze civilizations lived in harmony, but everything changed when the sea people attacked
I got that reference!
That map of the Bronze Age powers is quite cursed... So many cities are misplaced...
One way to make a career as a historian ist to "question the narrative". Eventually it will be "questioning the narrative" to argue that the term "collapse" is entirely warranted (and that the dark ages were, in fact, quite dark).
Of course they were dark, they didn't invent light bulbs yet.
@@XRioteerXBoyX hahaha , you didn komedi here
@@hellomoto1426 I did, and I do it everywhere I see an opportunity to do it. 👍
I found the ending vague, especially in comparison to the animation of trade routes earlier. I would have liked to see a map of what cities and trade networks survived, and perhaps what differentiated the survivors. Also, how crucial to the re-emergence of empires was iron?
What determined the length of the interregnum between the bronze and iron ages? Couldn't empires have been re-established based on the old trading networks once the Sea Peoples got tired of raiding? Or did the climate need to shift back?
The ending is vague because they're trying to argue the point that there was no collapse. The trade routes are not mentioned, because they were diminished greatly, and trade between states was wholly uncommon. There was a collapse of trade networks, which implies general collapse, which runs against their thesis, so it's unmentioned. Any talk of the survivors would show the woeful state they were reduced to, thus implying a collapse, which would also go against their thesis.
Assyria, Elam, and Egypt all survived as a state, though a sickly one. Egypt had lost most of its power, which effectively freed the Phoenicians from their control. Assyria held its territory for a bit, but was too weak to hold it without great effort. It was this weakened Assyria that destroyed Elam.
The re-emergence of trade in the Mediterranean was largely thanks to the Phoenicians and the rise of Carthage, as evidenced by the widespread adoption of their alphabet, which was passed on to us through the greeks and romans. That's another hint for how things went down: not only did Greece lose its writing, but it had to be re-taught by a civilization That didn't even exist independently yet when they fell. That's part of what determined the length of the interregnum, a new player had to come in to remind everyone how to trade and communicate with each other while the only survivors were too busy trying to not die from revolt.
Long story short: it's incredibly difficult to argue there was no collapse, and thus a lot of key details were left out.
@@carterghill Do we know when record-keeping shifted away from clay tablets to leaves or skins? I haven't been able to find any information on this in a cursory search. I did find a comment that clay tablets were preserved by the burning of buildings, and it occurred to me that other materials could simply vanish.
I surmise cuneiform requires wet clay and a triangular stylus while paper or vellum would more likely use brushes or pointy sticks, so I could attribute the use of new writing systems to a change in storage medium.
I somewhat facetiously view this interregnum as being caused by new management, OS upgrade, and lack of retention of IT personnel, and wonder if there wasn't also an upgrade to (more flammable) storage media as well. So even if the civilizations had persisted, their records (like the Sybelline Books) may not.
@@icollectstories5702 Well the Greeks got papyrus from Phoenician traders I believe, but I'm not sure when clay stopped being used all around. Tablets would've stopped being used in Greece certainly after the collapse, considering they lost their language, then converted to papyrus when they began writing again since they learned their new alphabet from Phoenicia too. Clay probably kept being used in Persia until the Hellenic age
Shang dynasty, India subcontinents also fell near these times. The nomadic groups did better than sedentary people during the bronze age collapse period. One must review global correlation with causation.
Exactly.I was disappointed that Indian and Chinese civilizations were ignored in this video but unlike the Mediterranean civilizations, China and India had a slower and more gradual transition from Bronze to Iron age.As far as I know, iron was introduced to China during the Zhou dynasty (around 1050-250 BC) but even later, in the Han dynasty (around 200 BC-221 CE), bronze weapons were still used alongside iron weapons.I don't know much about India but at least for China, the change from Bronze to Iron Age was very different from that in the Near East.
@@deacudaniel1635 in india the mahjanpada or 16 great states were started , and later on larger empires further muslim invasions for 600 years, in 10th century, then 180 years of colonial rule
Amazing video as always K&G but just a small note here. Your maps need to coordinate with the time period and should not include anachronistic elements. For example since we are talking about the Bronze Age ( ca 1300 BC ) you shouldn’t include cities that ere founded later such as Byzantium (659 BC ) or Ptolemais ( founded by the Ptolemaic dynasty in the 3rd century BC ) .
Keep up with your standing work 💪💪
They even showed the alluvial deposits from the Euphrates and Tigris which didn't exist at the time.
@@BoxStudioExecutive That’s an interesting detail you noticed
@@GothPaoki Οκ let’s don’t be so strict they do an amazing job in narrating the story . They probably use the same map pattern in every video
@@GothPaoki I think everyone is in love with the narrator’s voice
@@nikostombris5505 Then go listen to books on tape
im obsessed with the bronze age collapse. is there a playlist for this?
I don't know of any playlist but I watch a channel Dan Davis History who does a ton of stuff on the Bronze Age, so maybe check him out?
Extra history did a series of episodes on it. Check it out
Epimetheus channel
Pretty good lectures by Eric Cline are easily found as well, author of 1177bc. Also check out History Time. His videos are longer deep dives. Also, History with Cy is a great channel for pre-bronze age. I'm sure he's done some stuff on the collapse as well.
As others have said, Dan Davis. For me, he's the best of the bunch.
@@froggystyle642 It would be funny if Eric Cline had Dutch ancestors and would be called Eric De Cline. You know, as an expert for the decline of the bronze age.
Okay but it's still bizarre that multiple civilisations just crumbled or had gone through major shakeups _in the same time period._ Some warp heckery was afoot.
The extreme interconnectivity and reliance on foreign trade meant that a couple of crises in quick sucession could send the whole region spiraling out of control and collapse in a domino-like effect. These states were very specialized in their production and were fully dependent on continuous trade with their neighbours.
The radical changes to these societies were adaptations to the new reality of the eastern Mediterranean, when the old systems failed to withstand the changes.
Let's go with "what happened at the end of WW1?" for $200, thanks.
Not only eastern mediterranean, civs as far as India(Indus valley civ) and China also collapsed around this time.
My favorite topic 😍 Watching, it will be great as always ❤❤❤
I guess it depends on how we define "collapse". There certaintly was a decline or stagnation for most of civilisations at the time. Civilisations come and go all the time, but the fact that it happened for many civilisations at the same time makes it deserving of being called a "collapse" in my book.
Eggsactly *8 )
I'd definitely call it a collapse. It's similar to how after the Western Roman Empire collapsed, it wasn't exactly the end of civilization in Europe, but it did put a lot of things on pause, as for centuries the continent was more focused on survival rather than advancing or learning, etc. The same happened during the Bronze Age Collapse, but I think it was even longer
Love the Age of Empires-style Greek broad swordsman drawn in this video!
13:30 is this an Age of Empires 1 reference?
I am afraid it is 🙁
Yes obviously - lots of kingdoms disappeared in a short period of time. Was it entirely due to the "sea peoples" likely no - the invasions of the sea peoples was likely a result of the climatic changes at the time that led ot the collapse, was it a complete collapse, no the Assyrians and the Egyptians survivied it but it did destroy the system that had existed before and as systems reformed it would not be the same...
Thanks for this video, this is a topic really fascinating and gives you a glimpse into the posibilities of what could had happen, amazing work!
I love your channel! It's great material for history enthusiasts.
I was delighted when you used aloud for your video on languages. I thought I'd finally be able to share your content with my father, who speaks only Portuguese.
Is there a reason for you not using aloud in other videos? I'm sure you'd have a big audience here in Brazil.
Glad to see you doing some more Bonze Age stuff, that's a fascinating time period.
As usual, it wasn’t just one thing. It was a perfect storm that spent nearly a century brewing.
At some point one of the videos in this channel had to be bad, I guess... I won't go over the maps, which are a bit questionable, especially the appearance of lydia and with those borders, together with the hittite empire... but more importantly, the bronze age collapse has plenty of areas that can be speculated upon, but not the fact that is was an actual collapse.
Contrary to what the video says, we do have the evidence. Cities razed or abandoned, the hittite empire falling, the lack of written material in areas that previously had plenty of it, and many other things all occurring in the span of a few decades in different regions. A combination of things turned greece and anatolia upside down and affected the nearby regions too, all in the span of a generation or two. It's clearly not a simple "invasion", but it still was a radical change.
Nice Age of Empires 1 reference with the thumbnail! 🙂👍
I would enjoy more future videos on the various cultures of this time period. Thank you for another interesting video here too! I do enjoy the ancient history vids.
Stay well out there everybody, and God bless you, friends. ✝️ :)
When I see maps like in this video I start to cringe out and call for Inquisition to burn that map author on the stake, preferably with Greek Fire.
Love Kings and Generals as an old subscriber since this channel was small, but that maps sometimes... I just want to blind myself out like in the good byzantine fashion of old.
Yeah, the maps aren't the best, especially the cities they put on them, but it gives a general idea of what they're talking about and gets the point across, at least
Ah, yes, just like they did in good ol' Byzantium in its most glorious days of 1174 BC...
@@kingmenelaus7083 they have enough good maps most of the time, but this river Nile and cities in the middle of desert, man... It is not that hard to take an existing map, it is not mandatory to draw one from mind.
@@VaregianEisselor what do we know... only these History Channels know the true truth, ahah
Thank you for this episode, iv resently got to this point in my studies, it's like you red my mind, or recently saw iv been listening to certain videos in my sleep 😂 thank you. 🙏
That Age Of Empires thumbnail brings back so many memories.
Great job, I have been sub for some time now, very good inded
I thought it was the late bronze age eruption of Santorini, leading to earthquakes and climate change in greece, turning the warlike Mycenaean into the sea people who disrupted the trade networks and resulting in many city states that rely on trade to fail and its people to adapt a more sustenance based economy and not international trade.
@@colinpass88 But Troy was a Greek Aeolic colony, what Luwians have to do with that?
Sea People were the Myceneans with Sicilian and Sardinian soldiers. Led by king Agamemnon to conquer the known world.
The Mycenaean Age only begins after the Minoan collapse, which wasn't actually fully contemporary to the eruption on Thera.
@@alissa6 k but Agamemnon is mythical, not real
@@Arthur-pc1eh Well turns out the Myceneans existing became also real.
Is that thumbnail a reference to the game cover for age of empires 1?! Ah man I remember that game so fondly...
I'm sorry but the images mostly depict Classical Greece and not the Bronze Age.
I know we now tend to question everything and "deconstruct" every concept, but an utter loss of economic, political and literary consistency, whether local or widespread, is a collapse. Even if not total, and even if we see eventual recovery in some areas, decline of major languages and written culture is what we would normally consider a collapse. And what happened during the Bronze Age Collapse in the Eastern Mediterranean, in a matter of sheer scale, barely has happened anywhere else except for the collapse of indigenous cultures in America during the first two centuries after the arrival of Columbus.
Iron Age collapse is like this phrase “ if my neighbor losses there job it’s a recession, if I lose my job it’s a depression” hitites we’re in collapse and other powerful nation took a hit but we’re able to pull thru
"we stopped using palaces" while life continues as usual in the archeological record makes me believe it's more a leadership/elite crisis not a societal collapse from below.
3:40 On the map Halicarnassus is shown in place of Attaleia.
This episode has the BEST segue to the sponsor ad...like EVER. It has beaten the ads for NordVPN and Manscaped (which used to be my number 1 & 2 respectively)...kudos K&G team!!
I'm not saying it was aliens...
Don't be ridiculous.
It was Apocalypse, starting his first "survival of the fittest" mutant supremacy war.
It might have involved Methuselah and the Fallen Ones... and Russell Crowe.
@@JohnnyElRed
No, it was the Sapient Reptilians that were underground for millions of years... They only destroyed these civilizations when someone discovered them.
No, it's Ea Nasir who managed to scam people out of good copper this time around.
It was God & The 10 Commandments...
I dont really agree with the conclusion of this video but the fact that someone wants to discuss the topic and has the guts to go against tranditional narrative is usually positive imho. So good job on the video and keep up the good work. Ancient history is where i personally want this channel to go so :thumbs up:
Kings and Generals always trying to catch me on the next one, but I keep running
That’s what I love about history, we are always discovering new information that constantly keeps shaping history keeping the great never ending story going. Thanks kings for keeping the story told. 👍
too bad they can't be bothered to cite sources when making a video review about the findings of recent scholarship
Great as always! you never stop learning watching Kings and Generals
I love you guys dearly but this was an utterly unconvincing presentation and it did not address any of the strongest evidence suggesting total catastrophic collapse, especially in the case of the Mycaneans
I like that the Hoplite art from the thumbnail was taken from the cover art of Age of Empires 1. Nice little reference 👍🏻
I've been waiting for this for so long
I don't think that there's a better, complete history channel like this one on TH-cam. I truly appreciate that you take your time to talk about diverse issues, or subjects.
Your wrong.
@@mountainmanmike1014 My wrong?? Sorry sir, I do not own anything called wrong. Now, if you meant to say that I was wrong, you need to explain yourself.
These videos are great, but could you PLEASE start listing sources in the description? Some of us want to read more!
All you blessed souls that are a team that makes these montages happens . Your efforts are appreciated. Blessings be upon you in real life . Your word and world wide effort is and has been appreciated. Sorrow is not be ignored but even in our modern age it's just a little bit of history repeating. Anyhow have a nice day and most importantly stay free
Love Your vids !
intelligent and carefully researched analysis - thank you
Love the channel, can I just point out one quick grammar correction: If you say "with whom" you don't need to add the "with" at the end of the clause. I.e. "With whom they interacted" not "with whom they interacted with". It's like nails on a chalkboard every time I hear it.
I just wonder what if our society just collapse in such a manner that we might not even get a chance of understanding what actually happened. People in our time always boast about our technology but how many times has it occurred when people were utmost prepared but still lost everything.
Very often a collapse is only understood as such centuries after the fact.
The fall of the western roman empire was not widely registered as such in texts before centuries afterwards. Most people who were living at the time considered the death of Romulus Augustus and the ostrogoth rule as a change in leadership, violent for sure but did not think of it as the fall of the empire.
I think its mor elikely to accour today then in ancient times since we are much dependent on each other for food, clothing, shelter and even tools.
Back in the day the peasants had to do many things themself.
One stronger solar erruption (like in 1850) and we have way bigger problem then who will be the next old men in parlament.
this is my all time fav topic. thank you.
Good videos!!!
How was this released two days ago. Also, incredible animations.
It wasn't released, just uploaded
@@KingsandGenerals more bronze age wars please
@@KingsandGenerals What the fuck is this localization of cities in Egypt guys ? XD
Just imagine having the ability to go back in time and observe this period of history.
Great video! It's a topic that bears watching.
Great video 👌👏👏
I like that Age of Empires hoplite at the front of the thumbnail there.
Eric Cline has a very entertaining lecture on the collapse of the bronze Age
I agree with your assessment the "sea peoples" did not cause what we term the "Bronze Age Collapse". That said, the video is vague and unconvincing.
IMO, the primary reason was environmental and it was widespread enough to near-simultaneously affect the entire Mediterranean and Mesopotamian regions.
Lastly: I love ancient history. Whether I agree with the material or not, your videos on that period are why I subscribe to this channel.
I was wondering if the dates are to close to when Thera massively erupted. It destroyed most of the island, it had to be big. So I wonder if it started the downhill spire, that devastated all the Mediterranean.
As an aged Bronze boy myself, this video really means alot to me
Very nice artwork here!
3:41 wait...Byzantium (and possibly Halicarnassus and Ephesus) shouldnt exist during the bronze age...
Yes and also the cities of Egypt are put in the wrong position, and its territories are too big, Egypt never conquered Cyrenaica untill it was under the Ptolemies, there are some errors in the map, is a little frustrating, but at least the informations are good
Very good work and amazing storytelling, but as a Greek i grew learning that for centuries after Mycenaean collapse we have not a single evidence of writing or skill pottery, actually pottery found after Mycenaean collapse is described as pre-archaic based of the artisan skills, like they tried to create something that they found and copy it rather as a skill passed on
I very much enjoyed this video off the back of many standard bronze age collapse videos and the hypothesis you put forward here and I am inclined to agree with, I think the Odyssey provides circumstantial evidence to the raids of cities etc - Ithaca is described as a standard sedentary Greek society primarily based on agriculture that finds it totally acceptable, indeed admirable, to supplement its economy with piracy.
Did you think you could use the Age of Empires cover art and nobody would notice 😉
Excellent vid
The idea about cities still having people when some participated in the raids is a quite simplified. Many of those places did continue, but also grew much much smaller, signifying a large population drop
Very informative documentary.
Is there a video coming soon on the Iron Age?
Love how the thumbnail is almost like the original Age of Empires CD cover...
Age of Empires reference in the thumbnail, nice!
*Age of Empires thumbnail*
*Wololo intensified*
Great. As always...
Thank you , K&G .
🐺
Plz do a video on Indus valley civilizations and how was life there and what happened to them.
A video on the Chinese Bronze Age would be really cool, and maybe some historical comparisons with the mid east
Can you please explain what Geometric Greece means? Great video btw.
Microsoft and ensemble studios need to come after y’all for drawing that guy like that!
The thumbnail greek.... something familiar about him.
Was not he on the box art of Age of Empires?
I saw that AOE reference, K & G!
Starting at 2:25, it seems there is a localization problem with the Egyptian cities. Weren't Pelusium, Ptolemais, Pi'Ramesses, Memphis and Heliopolis ON, or next to, the Nile?
Sweet! Great subject.
Didn’t mention the earth cooling due to volcanic activity. Didn’t mention trade of tin broken. ‘You need tin to make bronze-you need bronze to till areas of farmland’. Which are the reasons for Bronze Age collapse
Poor Elam, no one ever talks about Elam.
Can you do a video on the Nuraghes of Sardinia?
I wonder if with the centuries, this seemingly starting process of "deglobalization" we are living now due to the Ukranian war, will be known as another collapse.
And what would this age be called then? "The Oil Age"? "The Combustion Age"?
The more advanced a civilization is and the more information it has accumulated, the more catastrophic the event that brings it down should be. We are not there yet.
there is enough tensile strength in modern civilization that a large war won't collapse it, it would take someone actually launching nukes or terrible disasters to truly start showing cracks. Armageddon would probably shatter the age thought.
Our age already has a name. It's called the age of information.
@@joshuastarkloff9602 thats what we call it currently. People 100's of years in the future may not be as charitable, or may find something to be a more unifying narrative than the introduction of the internet
Our civilizations didn't collapse after WW1 and 2. And those situations were a lot worse than what we are going through.
The collapse is not there yet. We would need disasters even a lot worse than WW2 on a world scale to bring us down.