Never thought I'd see Ben doing a redux of a Hop video. The difference between pre-ignition push and post ignition push is very hard to tell with ball and dummy drills, especially if you're not running at a super high level.
Actually in the early 60's, Jeff Cooper mentions this in at least one publication, The Complete Book of Shooting, I believe. He calls it post-ignition push, PIP. He differentiates between flinch, movement during the fall of the hammer or forward movement of the striker and that input of returning the sights to the target.
@Supernova73178 What Ben's talking about isn't an issue that needs to be fixed. If you want to ask a question about flinching or jerking your shots he said we can put it in the comments.
@@Supernova73178 You see, that's the thing. It's not really a negative issue. I think for years people have been misreading it as a flinch when doing the snap cap training. As Ben demonstrates, a flinch takes place during the hammer or striker fall, post ignition post occurs after. If the shooter can self diagnose or an instructor properly identify it, no problem. I think most very experienced and accomplished shooters have had the embarrassing moment demonstrating going about using snap caps only to exhibit what looks like a flinch that really isn't. Good on Ben for bringing it up!
@ I get that part of it but obviously if the movement occurs pre ignition that is a bad thing. It will obviously affect accuracy. my question is how do I determine whether that movement occurs pre-or post ignition and if it’s pre-ignition how do I mitigate it?
I use this drill a lot as an instructor when working with beginners. What it does for me is expose that anticipations or sympathetic squeezes are happening at all, and help the client feel that extra input they don't realize they are putting in. I don't use this for advanced shooting, only for tuning up trigger control on cases where they don't notice the input because of the recoil.
How do you know if that movement is pre ignition, anticipation or a flinch. I mean I know I have this movement but how do I know if it’s good kind or bad kind and if it’s the bad kind how do I fix it??
@@Supernova73178, pay attention to when in your shooting cycle the movement happens. If you’re doing dry fire, it’s super easy to see because there’s no recoil so any movement in the gun is caused by the shooter. If the movement happens either before or as you’re pulling the trigger, that’s a flinch (bad). If the movement is a distinct thing that happens after the trigger is pulled and the sights return to where you want them, that’s recoil control (not bad).
I struggle with the 3 grip methods… No flinch, click, bang, passive grip, wait for sight picture to come back on it’s own. No flinch, click, bang, semi active grip, help sight picture come back a little. No flinch, click, bang, active grip, drive sight picture back as fast as possible. I got good at the 3rd one and then over time it deteriorated to: Flinch!, click, bang, over active too early drive gun to sight picture. Shot stacking suffered. I went back to the 2nd semi active grip and practiced/monitored my flinch away and i’m back. My tendency sometimes is to want to shoot so fast that i anticipate driving the gun down too early before the click, bang and it turns into a flinch.
THANK YOU! I started writing a diatribe about this after the “stop shooting left” video (it started getting long so I just deleted the draft), I had an ammo related malfunction during my last match, caught it on camera, I dipped the barrel straight down after the hammer went click, I believed it was normal in reaction to the forthcoming recoil.
Proper recoil control is anticipation of recoil as well. That's the point. Human reaction time to a touch stimulus is about 150ms; which is not compatible with "responding" to the recoil in order to get back on target in a timely fashion for competitive shooting.
Man, talk about a refreshing video presentation. Straight to the point, on topic throughout and without any of the typical "TH-cam wank". I know what the like button is. I know what subscribing is. I don't need constant reminders wasting my time. This is high quality content.
Yep! I finally figured that out. Pre ignition or post ignition. Big difference. One is not wanted and the other can be a good thing. Just not too much.
Snap caps training is good for the new shooter cuz you can diagnose some flinch but as you said once shooting at a higher level it’s nearly totally irrelevant, BUT it still can help perform a baseline test if you’re helping someone you’ve never seen shoot and you’re seeing how they group
I've just become convinced that the ball-and-dummy drill is mostly pointless. Diagnostically, you see a pre-ignition push on the target (low/left typically for RH shooter). Running the drill with someone who knows they're suffering from a pre-ignition push just confirms that - which is exactly what you're already seeing on the target. The pre-ignition push, like the post-ignition push, is subconscious; it's not useful just to tell someone "don't do that". Wear good hearing protection, double-up if necessary, shoot outdoors, don't overtrain, get used to the timing and get inoculated to the sensations of the firearm doing its job.
key point at 3:00 - cadence. You should be applying force after the trigger pull, its just that it needs to be after the bullet has left the barrel. Nothing you do will effect the trajectory after the bullet has left the muzzle. obviously
Ben, do you have any advice for picking small spots during target transitions? This is quite easy when there is a salient feature (e.g., black paster), but very difficult when the target is relatively plain. I notice that my performance is much better when I have an aiming reference, but this is a luxury only afforded in training and is not generally reproducible in matches. Thanks for the great content.
That was super helpful, most conventional firearms training will advocate for zero input. Nice to know that the reality is there is some input in practical shooting, the key is putting in an appropriate amount of input at the right time.
I only use snap caps to train for malfunction clearing. I've found it to be one of the best and quickest ways to teach recognition of a failure to fire, or other malfunction.
I have always wondered why the gun isn't supposed to move when you hit the snap cap if you are trained to return the gun to the target after recoil. Thanks for making it make sense.
Mind blown. Every so called trainer seems to promote the ball and dummy drill. I’ve been trying to figure out how I can get faster and not move the gun when I hit a snap cap. Thanks to you sharing some wisdom, I will shift my focus away from avoiding movement to analyzing the kind of input and the results.
Yeah here is the smarter way, accept that the gun is moving the whole time because youre alive…. Do your best to stabilize the gun, stable doesnt mean perfectly still, its just stabile. Manipulate the trigger as fast and smoothly as needed to not disturb your stable pistol, rinse and repeat until the desired effect on target is achieved. People complicate pistols so much that it makes me want to throw up.
Hi Ben. A way to train it instead of snap caps. Load the weapon remove the magazine, shoot 2 quick. check what happens on the second firing. When you don't pull left down low but lay still, let the magazine sit so it pops on the second shot. You trick the brain that way. A suggestion if you know what I mean.
I've always divided snatch between 'pre-emptive' versus 'sympathetic'. Pre-emptive is the bad one, where you move the gun before or during trigger press. Sympathetic is the harmless one, where you move the gun after the shot to return it to target, as you point out. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't know the difference and pronounce any movement on a dummy round as bad.
i agree with you, using the context of an already-proficient shooter. however, i also personally think that learning how to stack holes together every time you touch the gun is the more important skill to learn first, which is what snap caps help with. once you’re proficient with that, then its just learning how to do it faster and faster. at that point the snap caps dont help anymore, like you said
Love this dichotomy. Inductive training vs. "let me reveal something you're doing that's normal that you don't know about to justify me being your instructor"
The problem with gun movement isn't movement after the shot. Bullet is gone, accuracy was archieved (or not, lol), now your problem is recoil. The actual problem is movement before the shot. Because that is how you miss low and left.
The amount of input needed is smaller than would be needed to return the gun from its highest point of recoil. The slide returning to battery and suddenly stopping will knock the muzzle back down most of the way.
I always thought the biggest problem with snap caps was accidentally leaving one in the chamber after dry firing and then ejecting it onto the ground in front of the RO during your make-ready.
One shot return has been key trying to wrap my head around returning the gun, I still don’t understand it but if I have the right grip pressures and stare at a specific spot the gun returns
Like many things, they are not training tools. They are fault identifiers. Using snap caps to fix a push is like using an air pressure gauge to fix a tire.
exactly. when shooting live ammo you get in a cadence where anticipation to level out the gun makes perfect sense. the dud round breaks that cadence and actually speaks nothing of you being a bad shot.
Very good point! so what is the best way to train to move from target no reaction to post input without developing pre input habits! 40 years ago I was a long range pistol silhouette competitor kind of the ultimate no reaction game!
Thank you for saying this out loud. It’s 100 % fact. There is a far easier way to tell if you’re anticipating recoil: you have a properly zeroed handgun and you hit what you aim. No cheating like adjusting the sights or aimimg a little off. If you hit what you aim, a snap cap in between tells you nothing of value. A random snap cap or a few in the mags can help you initiate a tap-rack clearance. On the topic of dynamic shooters doing something different compared to target folks: we also reset during recoil. Once you’re back on target, the trigger should be ready to go for your next shot. Some instructors have you do nothing during recoil. Slowly descend back on target, slowly reset after having your sight back on target… Great for one thing but not IPSC/USPSA or I Don’t Practice Anymore. (Just kidding, IDPA is a good sport and I find the scoring system better.) In my mind, I kind of air-rack the gun against the recoil, and the trigger reset is not so much the trigger moving forward but the gun moving back and leaving the trigger behind. Not literally, but kind of. Shooting with your eyes closed is a great way to really get a feeling for the active part of recoil management. Aim, close eyes, shoot twice, and open eyes. If your follow-up shot was higher, do something differently but do it by feel, not by aiming. Another thing I practiced was a really quick reset and taking up the slack as the gun was coming down. Make sure it’s safe to shoot at an upward angle because it will happen when finding the limit. Practicing how to manage recoil by feel and resetting during recoil improved both my speed and accuracy when I was unlearning my old ways of target shooting.
Wonder if that negates the live fire training with a Mantis X. It’s looking for minimal movement during live fire. Either way, there’s a skill level ceiling with that device once you understand the input, throughput, and output of pulling the trigger.
It would help with mashing the trigger to see what grip and trigger finger placement works best. I look at that stuff like toys with no real benefit compared to free dry fire.
Yeah couldn’t agree more you have to have some kind of input on the gun it’s just what you have to do to return the gun back to the same spot. It would be so slow otherwise
Very good analysis. What are your thoughts on using rimfire upper halves as a training aid, like the CZ Kadet? I think it can really help someone better understand the nuances of a particular trigger, but not much beyond that.
You recently put out a video on pushing the gun left (or, more precisely, to your non-dominant side). For some reason, I tend to push my shots to the right as a right-handed shooter (i.e., to my dominant side). I can reproduce this issue very well in dry fire when smashing the trigger in response to an auditory stimulus. It seems to be due to a transient "squeezing" of the gun with my right hand--i.e., due to me suddenly "flexing" my right hand as I pull the trigger. It seems to happen randomly (every three shots or so), and I cannot figure out how to remedy it. Many thanks.
Just my 2 cents: Look at the end of the backstrap and make small changes to where it sits in your hand. Try squeezing and hard pulls one handed and see what changes. The other might be that your grip falls apart after a few shots and you try to fix it with the right hand. Film what is happening.
@onpsxmember It actually seems to get worse when I use the medium back strap versus the large (recently switched from large to medium back strap on G47 to accommodate the reach of the Glock performance trigger). It definitely doesn't get worse during longer strings of fire, so I don't think that my grip is falling apart. Super frustrating.
I like making my own snap caps from press rejects for weighted mags. I fill the primer pocket with silicone and practice my reloads in dryfire. The flinching eventually works itself out from practice.
You missed the point of the video. A good shooter is going to have "flinch" when live firing. The difference between a good and bad shooter is if the flinch happens before the guns striker hits the primer or if it's after because you're doing recoil control. Now in dryfire yes, there shouldn't be flinch and you shouldn't be trying to do recoil control but in live fire you most certainly should be.😊
So another way of thinking about it would be the goal of dry fire is to achieve the absolute minimum input to break the trigger as consistently as possible? And, the input to manage recoil is a subconscious learned response? Or am I supposed to practice that?
this is why Im against pulling the trigger during dry fire, you might as well pretend to ride a bike by just sitting in the seat and just revving the engine in neutral. its silly. dryfire is for draws, magazine changes, movement, transitions and grip pressure
My snap caps are collecting dust. They don’t help. The only dummy rounds I actually use are real weight so my dryfire reloads, draw, transitions, etc are more like the real thing.
How do I teach a new shooter to not shoot "low left?" She is very clearly pushing the gun down and left before recoil and before the trigger breaks, but I have run out of ideas on how to help her understand what she is doing and correct it during live fire. She has no problem in dry fire, she understands the concept that I am explaining and why it is occuring, but when it gets to live fire, she seems to totally forget everything. Suggestions or drills that might help? I have tried loading dummy rounds like this, but it becomes one of those things where she becomes unconcerned with other aspects of shooting and instead is waiting for the gun to go click instead of bang.
@Strandberg6 I dont quite understand your original comment. If I understand it, you chamber a round and remove the mag so it fires on the first but is dry on the second pull of the trigger, correct? I have tried this, but again, for someone who knows what is coming and/or is afraid of the recoil going off, it doesnt really help a whole hell of a lot. Unless you mean something different by what you were trying to convey?
Trigger control at speed is a great drill to start with. Focus on grip tension and vision and pressing the trigger aggressively without disturbing the sights. During live fire, consciously feel how it felt when you dry fired the drill. Really pay attention to your grip tensions in your firing hand and support hand. Like Ben says "put your brain on your hands" and mimic the same motion as in dry fire. That is what really helped with me.
Try giving her a job to do with the gun. My girlfriend was much the same way and what I did was set her up at a dueling tree with some smallish (4") plates and told her to start flipping them. Suddenly she went from big 8"+ plus groups to consistently hitting plates half that size. The rationale being that it gets her mind off of the gun going off and gets her to focus on the target and the task at hand and will be too focused on that to be anticipating recoil
@@alexanderluster402 certainly not the worst idea. I have tried small movement drills with cardboard and she seems to do better, but still manages to drop rounds on follow up shots
How do I bridge the gap between live and dry fire times? Also, if there isn't a small spot on the target to focus on (a fresh steel plate for exsample) do I try to find the center and focus on that?
I commonly hear the opinion that Glocks are inherently harder to shoot well than other guns. Do you think this is true and if so, is there value in training on a "harder" gun to shoot because it will expose your deficiencies more readily?
Interesting, thank you. If I'm not firing fast, is no input still the best idea for accuracy? Or should I be throwing a little push in after the trigger is pulled every time while dry firing and try picking up the pace during practice?
What do you think about dry fire with a coin on the front sight to train trigger manipulation? Ultimately, hitting the target is the true tell. Not a dip, a muscle movement, or a coin falling. I used to just focus on trigger presses with no looking at the sights or anything else. I dunno if it worked, but seems like if you isolate one part of the process, that’s how you can improve it.
Cause they train with what they carry and some do not have a choice but the job decides. No external safety manipulation needed besides the dingus. Too light of a trigger is often considered a safety issue. Having some safety margi in butt clenching moments is often a good idea. Decisions have to work for 1000s+ people including the most 'gifted'.
"When you're shooting at a high level", I think this is the key here. Snap caps are great for beginners to give them that "ah-ha!" moment that they're flinching. High level shooters already understand this and can discern the difference between flinching and post-shot input, beginners have no clue.
Often when shooting doubles I pull my first shot and then my second shot is dead nuts on. It happens so frequently and I'm pretty frustrated about it. Do I just need more rounds/more doubles? Or is there something specific you can diagnose that would help me? I do dry fire a lot, and sometimes dry firing in the middle of a live fire session can help the problem, but it seems like I always slide back into it.
Snap caps are just a tool. If you are flinching due to recoil anticipation, then you are putting too much anticipation into the gun. Mixing in snap caps should help expose that. Ben makes the point that some movement is normal and acceptable, but it is the type and magnitude of the input that has to be managed. I know that my shooting buddy and i are fairly novice and struggle with recoil anticipation and it feels like a snap cap drill could help. I will just make sure not to emphasize zero movement after the shot. I just need to mix in bill drills as well. But ammo is soo expensive 😫
How do you know if that movement is pre ignition, anticipation or a flinch. I mean I know I have this movement but how do I know if it’s good kind or bad kind and if it’s the bad kind how do I fix it??
Is it helpful to put your focus on input (or the intention of it) during dry fire or is it only something you can practice during live fire exercises (like one shot - return)?
Read the manual. Some cant. If hammer fired you can use a fitting, bright color o-ring to dampen the hammer fall. Look at his videos, follow up shots can be simulated.
The snap cap is to help beginners understand what's happening. They are far from reading their shots or watching the dot to see what they are doing. Maybe people should learn group shooting first before rapid fire.
When it comes to training this post fire input, should I try first train out the preemptive flinch then try bringing that back as input after or is it more about trying to focus on delaying that flinch?
Not the same thing. There should be no anticipation, just accept recoil, noise, flash. There are videos specifically on how eyes on target make the pistol return.
I believed him because the ball and dummy drill seemed to not do much for me, and the other drill where you remove the mag with a round in the chamber was moreso useful training how to clear jams and not getting rid of my flitch.
We did that at Tactical response when I took a class there just practice malfunction drills because we had Glocks and they really wouldn’t malfunction much
"People wonder if I'm working hard, or hardly working, but what they don't know, is that I'm hard WHILE working" - Steggler
Cool video but I'm still going to comment "nice flinch" on every single instagram video I can find
Hi Hop
As one does
Especially funny because you did a video on the same subject.
Cringe
@Hoplopfheil Turkeys Opinion shoots some hot stuff and I don't recall seeing him flinch on a click
I dry fire with snap caps because it makes the noise quieter so that my wife doesn’t get annoyed with me
This guy gets it
Ikr. My wife acts like 9mm is the loudest thing ever. Babe go back to sleep
Goofy!
Same here
If you put a random live round among the snap caps, you can tell if you anticipate a click.
Never thought I'd see Ben doing a redux of a Hop video. The difference between pre-ignition push and post ignition push is very hard to tell with ball and dummy drills, especially if you're not running at a super high level.
Actually in the early 60's, Jeff Cooper mentions this in at least one publication, The Complete Book of Shooting, I believe. He calls it post-ignition push, PIP. He differentiates between flinch, movement during the fall of the hammer or forward movement of the striker and that input of returning the sights to the target.
I've heard Ben talk about this before as well, but this is the first time to my knowledge he's elaborated to this extent.
I don’t what you call it. HOW DO YOU FIX IT????😂
@Supernova73178 What Ben's talking about isn't an issue that needs to be fixed.
If you want to ask a question about flinching or jerking your shots he said we can put it in the comments.
@@Supernova73178 You see, that's the thing. It's not really a negative issue. I think for years people have been misreading it as a flinch when doing the snap cap training. As Ben demonstrates, a flinch takes place during the hammer or striker fall, post ignition post occurs after. If the shooter can self diagnose or an instructor properly identify it, no problem. I think most very experienced and accomplished shooters have had the embarrassing moment demonstrating going about using snap caps only to exhibit what looks like a flinch that really isn't. Good on Ben for bringing it up!
@ I get that part of it but obviously if the movement occurs pre ignition that is a bad thing. It will obviously affect accuracy. my question is how do I determine whether that movement occurs pre-or post ignition and if it’s pre-ignition how do I mitigate it?
I use this drill a lot as an instructor when working with beginners. What it does for me is expose that anticipations or sympathetic squeezes are happening at all, and help the client feel that extra input they don't realize they are putting in. I don't use this for advanced shooting, only for tuning up trigger control on cases where they don't notice the input because of the recoil.
How do you know if that movement is pre ignition, anticipation or a flinch. I mean I know I have this movement but how do I know if it’s good kind or bad kind and if it’s the bad kind how do I fix it??
@@Supernova73178, pay attention to when in your shooting cycle the movement happens. If you’re doing dry fire, it’s super easy to see because there’s no recoil so any movement in the gun is caused by the shooter. If the movement happens either before or as you’re pulling the trigger, that’s a flinch (bad). If the movement is a distinct thing that happens after the trigger is pulled and the sights return to where you want them, that’s recoil control (not bad).
@@joshuastegman7332 thank you!
I struggle with the 3 grip methods…
No flinch, click, bang, passive grip, wait for sight picture to come back on it’s own.
No flinch, click, bang, semi active grip, help sight picture come back a little.
No flinch, click, bang, active grip, drive sight picture back as fast as possible.
I got good at the 3rd one and then over time it deteriorated to:
Flinch!, click, bang, over active too early drive gun to sight picture. Shot stacking suffered.
I went back to the 2nd semi active grip and practiced/monitored my flinch away and i’m back.
My tendency sometimes is to want to shoot so fast that i anticipate driving the gun down too early before the click, bang and it turns into a flinch.
THANK YOU! I started writing a diatribe about this after the “stop shooting left” video (it started getting long so I just deleted the draft), I had an ammo related malfunction during my last match, caught it on camera, I dipped the barrel straight down after the hammer went click, I believed it was normal in reaction to the forthcoming recoil.
So one could say it’s a “timing issue” when people are talking about flinches, recoil anticipation, etc
And finesse. Time it perfectly with the right amount of force.
I think flinching is in anticipation of recoil, he's talking about proper recoil control. Which to the untrained eye looks like a flinch.
Proper recoil control is anticipation of recoil as well. That's the point. Human reaction time to a touch stimulus is about 150ms; which is not compatible with "responding" to the recoil in order to get back on target in a timely fashion for competitive shooting.
Man, talk about a refreshing video presentation. Straight to the point, on topic throughout and without any of the typical "TH-cam wank". I know what the like button is. I know what subscribing is. I don't need constant reminders wasting my time. This is high quality content.
Exactomundo. Do we watch the news where the host says, "Make sure you purchase the products in the commercials- it helps support the show."
Yep! I finally figured that out. Pre ignition or post ignition. Big difference. One is not wanted and the other can be a good thing. Just not too much.
Snap caps training is good for the new shooter cuz you can diagnose some flinch but as you said once shooting at a higher level it’s nearly totally irrelevant, BUT it still can help perform a baseline test if you’re helping someone you’ve never seen shoot and you’re seeing how they group
I've just become convinced that the ball-and-dummy drill is mostly pointless. Diagnostically, you see a pre-ignition push on the target (low/left typically for RH shooter). Running the drill with someone who knows they're suffering from a pre-ignition push just confirms that - which is exactly what you're already seeing on the target. The pre-ignition push, like the post-ignition push, is subconscious; it's not useful just to tell someone "don't do that". Wear good hearing protection, double-up if necessary, shoot outdoors, don't overtrain, get used to the timing and get inoculated to the sensations of the firearm doing its job.
Right! So it's all about the timing. Great point!
You raise interesting points. Thanks for the video.
key point at 3:00 - cadence. You should be applying force after the trigger pull, its just that it needs to be after the bullet has left the barrel. Nothing you do will effect the trajectory after the bullet has left the muzzle. obviously
Ben, do you have any advice for picking small spots during target transitions? This is quite easy when there is a salient feature (e.g., black paster), but very difficult when the target is relatively plain. I notice that my performance is much better when I have an aiming reference, but this is a luxury only afforded in training and is not generally reproducible in matches. Thanks for the great content.
That was super helpful, most conventional firearms training will advocate for zero input. Nice to know that the reality is there is some input in practical shooting, the key is putting in an appropriate amount of input at the right time.
Great explination, so many look for any movement.
This is a great lesson. Thanks Ben
I completely agree. I hate when instructors overuse drills like the Ball and Dummy drill.
Great discussion. Thanks for improving the firearms training knowledge base.
I am only use snap caps to train people on how to rapidly identify and clear a malfunction.
Bingo.
I only use snap caps to train for malfunction clearing. I've found it to be one of the best and quickest ways to teach recognition of a failure to fire, or other malfunction.
I have always wondered why the gun isn't supposed to move when you hit the snap cap if you are trained to return the gun to the target after recoil. Thanks for making it make sense.
Mind blown. Every so called trainer seems to promote the ball and dummy drill. I’ve been trying to figure out how I can get faster and not move the gun when I hit a snap cap. Thanks to you sharing some wisdom, I will shift my focus away from avoiding movement to analyzing the kind of input and the results.
Yeah here is the smarter way, accept that the gun is moving the whole time because youre alive…. Do your best to stabilize the gun, stable doesnt mean perfectly still, its just stabile. Manipulate the trigger as fast and smoothly as needed to not disturb your stable pistol, rinse and repeat until the desired effect on target is achieved. People complicate pistols so much that it makes me want to throw up.
This is so spot on it hurts
Gun Jesus back out here slaying every day brands
I never thought about that before, that's funny 😂😂 and true.
Gun Jesus is Ian McCollum from Forgotten Weapons. Dude, what a shame.
@@hammer911tube His long lost cousin then, on his mother's side, 3 times removed. With 300% more pessimism.
Ian is gun Jesus. I believe you just made Ben into… Gun Brian.
Reminds me of the phrase it’s ok to flinch just after the shot
This makes sense and I’ve been doing snap cap thing for a long time…
Hi Ben.
A way to train it instead of snap caps.
Load the weapon remove the magazine, shoot 2 quick. check what happens on the second firing.
When you don't pull left down low but lay still, let the magazine sit so it pops on the second shot.
You trick the brain that way. A suggestion if you know what I mean.
🇺🇸
Holy cow.... my OCD is killing me. Can I please clean the dot lens for you?!
I've always divided snatch between 'pre-emptive' versus 'sympathetic'. Pre-emptive is the bad one, where you move the gun before or during trigger press. Sympathetic is the harmless one, where you move the gun after the shot to return it to target, as you point out. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't know the difference and pronounce any movement on a dummy round as bad.
*in sequence counter force* vs out of sequence, which would be pre-ignition push.
Your lecturing me on pre vs post ignition push was one of the biggest things that helped me shoot handguns better.
@@Hoplopfheil i am humbled sir
@@philosophyofcarry
Is that based on a comment of yours, a video or in person?
i agree with you, using the context of an already-proficient shooter. however, i also personally think that learning how to stack holes together every time you touch the gun is the more important skill to learn first, which is what snap caps help with. once you’re proficient with that, then its just learning how to do it faster and faster. at that point the snap caps dont help anymore, like you said
Love this dichotomy. Inductive training vs. "let me reveal something you're doing that's normal that you don't know about to justify me being your instructor"
The problem with gun movement isn't movement after the shot. Bullet is gone, accuracy was archieved (or not, lol), now your problem is recoil.
The actual problem is movement before the shot. Because that is how you miss low and left.
Exactly.
And you can tell that by the misses.
If the hits are at the point of aim, there’s no flinch (or it’s of the sort that doesn’t matter).
The amount of input needed is smaller than would be needed to return the gun from its highest point of recoil. The slide returning to battery and suddenly stopping will knock the muzzle back down most of the way.
well said. I can not pull the trigger without any movement.
I always thought the biggest problem with snap caps was accidentally leaving one in the chamber after dry firing and then ejecting it onto the ground in front of the RO during your make-ready.
Did that once! 🙄
I had my buddy load some dummy ammo to practice clearing and to see if I'm flinching which will be very obvious regardless of 'some input.'
One shot return has been key trying to wrap my head around returning the gun,
I still don’t understand it but if I have the right grip pressures and stare at a specific spot the gun returns
Like many things, they are not training tools. They are fault identifiers. Using snap caps to fix a push is like using an air pressure gauge to fix a tire.
Huge light bulbs light up in your subscribers' heads. Thanks for that Ben!
exactly. when shooting live ammo you get in a cadence where anticipation to level out the gun makes perfect sense. the dud round breaks that cadence and actually speaks nothing of you being a bad shot.
Very good point! so what is the best way to train to move from target no reaction to post input without developing pre input habits! 40 years ago I was a long range pistol silhouette competitor kind of the ultimate no reaction game!
Thank you for saying this out loud. It’s 100 % fact.
There is a far easier way to tell if you’re anticipating recoil: you have a properly zeroed handgun and you hit what you aim. No cheating like adjusting the sights or aimimg a little off. If you hit what you aim, a snap cap in between tells you nothing of value.
A random snap cap or a few in the mags can help you initiate a tap-rack clearance.
On the topic of dynamic shooters doing something different compared to target folks: we also reset during recoil. Once you’re back on target, the trigger should be ready to go for your next shot.
Some instructors have you do nothing during recoil. Slowly descend back on target, slowly reset after having your sight back on target… Great for one thing but not IPSC/USPSA or I Don’t Practice Anymore. (Just kidding, IDPA is a good sport and I find the scoring system better.)
In my mind, I kind of air-rack the gun against the recoil, and the trigger reset is not so much the trigger moving forward but the gun moving back and leaving the trigger behind. Not literally, but kind of.
Shooting with your eyes closed is a great way to really get a feeling for the active part of recoil management. Aim, close eyes, shoot twice, and open eyes. If your follow-up shot was higher, do something differently but do it by feel, not by aiming.
Another thing I practiced was a really quick reset and taking up the slack as the gun was coming down. Make sure it’s safe to shoot at an upward angle because it will happen when finding the limit.
Practicing how to manage recoil by feel and resetting during recoil improved both my speed and accuracy when I was unlearning my old ways of target shooting.
Wonder if that negates the live fire training with a Mantis X. It’s looking for minimal movement during live fire. Either way, there’s a skill level ceiling with that device once you understand the input, throughput, and output of pulling the trigger.
The only thing it might help with is motivation/consistency pushh to do dry fire.
It would help with mashing the trigger to see what grip and trigger finger placement works best. I look at that stuff like toys with no real benefit compared to free dry fire.
I already miss the katana….
Yeah couldn’t agree more you have to have some kind of input on the gun it’s just what you have to do to return the gun back to the same spot. It would be so slow otherwise
Very good analysis. What are your thoughts on using rimfire upper halves as a training aid, like the CZ Kadet? I think it can really help someone better understand the nuances of a particular trigger, but not much beyond that.
I've tried explaining this to several different persons on many different ocasions. Feels like only a few understood what my point was.
You recently put out a video on pushing the gun left (or, more precisely, to your non-dominant side). For some reason, I tend to push my shots to the right as a right-handed shooter (i.e., to my dominant side). I can reproduce this issue very well in dry fire when smashing the trigger in response to an auditory stimulus. It seems to be due to a transient "squeezing" of the gun with my right hand--i.e., due to me suddenly "flexing" my right hand as I pull the trigger. It seems to happen randomly (every three shots or so), and I cannot figure out how to remedy it. Many thanks.
Just my 2 cents:
Look at the end of the backstrap and make small changes to where it sits in your hand.
Try squeezing and hard pulls one handed and see what changes.
The other might be that your grip falls apart after a few shots and you try to fix it with the right hand. Film what is happening.
@onpsxmember It actually seems to get worse when I use the medium back strap versus the large (recently switched from large to medium back strap on G47 to accommodate the reach of the Glock performance trigger). It definitely doesn't get worse during longer strings of fire, so I don't think that my grip is falling apart. Super frustrating.
I like making my own snap caps from press rejects for weighted mags. I fill the primer pocket with silicone and practice my reloads in dryfire. The flinching eventually works itself out from practice.
You missed the point of the video. A good shooter is going to have "flinch" when live firing. The difference between a good and bad shooter is if the flinch happens before the guns striker hits the primer or if it's after because you're doing recoil control.
Now in dryfire yes, there shouldn't be flinch and you shouldn't be trying to do recoil control but in live fire you most certainly should be.😊
Big fan your minutia videos, to be honest.
I dry fire with snap caps because if there's a snap cap in the chamber, I can reasonably deduce there's no live rounds in the chamber.
You should get into the habit of knowing the status of the chamber of the weapon when you pick it up. Then you can train with it without the snap cap.
@ompenarnie Hmmmmm. Interesting.
@@mlazarus5388 if you know there's a cap in it then you know the status of the chamber.
Would be nice to hear your thoughts on mantis. I’m pretty skeptical.
So another way of thinking about it would be the goal of dry fire is to achieve the absolute minimum input to break the trigger as consistently as possible?
And, the input to manage recoil is a subconscious learned response? Or am I supposed to practice that?
Red Shirt Trigger Warning Button -->
this is why Im against pulling the trigger during dry fire, you might as well pretend to ride a bike by just sitting in the seat and just revving the engine in neutral. its silly. dryfire is for draws, magazine changes, movement, transitions and grip pressure
My snap caps are collecting dust. They don’t help. The only dummy rounds I actually use are real weight so my dryfire reloads, draw, transitions, etc are more like the real thing.
Where is your TTI combat video after shooting it?
Not necessarily related, but what is your take on Mantis devices for handguns?
How or what can I work on to shoot a major caliber like 45acp as aggressively as a 9mm? Pushing it the same way is not pretty at the moment
I feel less recoil in my G21 vs my G17
Woohoo! Finally! I'm NOT doing something wrong. :) Thanks!
The problem with snap caps in shotguns is that they can get stuck and you have to take it to the weaponsmith.
How do I teach a new shooter to not shoot "low left?" She is very clearly pushing the gun down and left before recoil and before the trigger breaks, but I have run out of ideas on how to help her understand what she is doing and correct it during live fire. She has no problem in dry fire, she understands the concept that I am explaining and why it is occuring, but when it gets to live fire, she seems to totally forget everything. Suggestions or drills that might help? I have tried loading dummy rounds like this, but it becomes one of those things where she becomes unconcerned with other aspects of shooting and instead is waiting for the gun to go click instead of bang.
Hello.
see my reply to ben a bit up. it can help.
@Strandberg6 I dont quite understand your original comment. If I understand it, you chamber a round and remove the mag so it fires on the first but is dry on the second pull of the trigger, correct? I have tried this, but again, for someone who knows what is coming and/or is afraid of the recoil going off, it doesnt really help a whole hell of a lot. Unless you mean something different by what you were trying to convey?
Trigger control at speed is a great drill to start with. Focus on grip tension and vision and pressing the trigger aggressively without disturbing the sights. During live fire, consciously feel how it felt when you dry fired the drill. Really pay attention to your grip tensions in your firing hand and support hand. Like Ben says "put your brain on your hands" and mimic the same motion as in dry fire. That is what really helped with me.
Try giving her a job to do with the gun. My girlfriend was much the same way and what I did was set her up at a dueling tree with some smallish (4") plates and told her to start flipping them. Suddenly she went from big 8"+ plus groups to consistently hitting plates half that size. The rationale being that it gets her mind off of the gun going off and gets her to focus on the target and the task at hand and will be too focused on that to be anticipating recoil
@@alexanderluster402 certainly not the worst idea. I have tried small movement drills with cardboard and she seems to do better, but still manages to drop rounds on follow up shots
Ben, you mentioned a while back that you were rewriting one of your books. Which one? How long before you publish it?
How do I bridge the gap between live and dry fire times?
Also, if there isn't a small spot on the target to focus on (a fresh steel plate for exsample) do I try to find the center and focus on that?
I commonly hear the opinion that Glocks are inherently harder to shoot well than other guns. Do you think this is true and if so, is there value in training on a "harder" gun to shoot because it will expose your deficiencies more readily?
I rarely shoot my glock and can still hit a 6" plate at 40 yards pretty regularly. I'm just not a fan of strikerfire.
Interesting, thank you. If I'm not firing fast, is no input still the best idea for accuracy? Or should I be throwing a little push in after the trigger is pulled every time while dry firing and try picking up the pace during practice?
If you're in the range and doing live life, the target and timer are already giving you the feedback you need
Thoughts on the AimPoint COA
I just use snapcaps to test feed and extraction.
there is time to time when u clean your optic glass..should be in manual if you didn't trash it
Nah, it's free occlusion. ^^
At what point do you clean your optic?
What do you think about dry fire with a coin on the front sight to train trigger manipulation?
Ultimately, hitting the target is the true tell. Not a dip, a muscle movement, or a coin falling.
I used to just focus on trigger presses with no looking at the sights or anything else. I dunno if it worked, but seems like if you isolate one part of the process, that’s how you can improve it.
it only works if you put on a shock collar and give yourself a zap if the coin falls
@@MannElite😂
You don't need a coin or toys, the sights tell you everything you need to know about where the shot would have gone.
A dot will tell you everything you need to know about the inputs you're putting into the gun. So will irons, just not so obviously.
Look up "Ben Stoeger Trigger Control at Speed Drill." That will help you a lot more than a coin on the front sight or whatever.
If the snap cap exercise is simply to diagnose improper trigger input, what is it doing that dry firing isnt?
It should initiate clearing a malfunction if you ask me.
how do you account for this when doing trigger control at speed?
An honest question.
Why do people use Glock or other striker-fired guns instead of a single action gun?
Cause they train with what they carry and some do not have a choice but the job decides.
No external safety manipulation needed besides the dingus. Too light of a trigger is often considered a safety issue. Having some safety margi in butt clenching moments is often a good idea. Decisions have to work for 1000s+ people including the most 'gifted'.
@onpsxmember you do understand that competition and everyday carry are different things?
@@hammer911tube Not really. There are a lot of factory EDC pistols I would compete with.
@@hammer911tube
Tell that to the Staccato cops.
Be more specific asking questions.
Forgive my ignorance ; is your recoil spring lighter than normal / stock ?
"When you're shooting at a high level", I think this is the key here. Snap caps are great for beginners to give them that "ah-ha!" moment that they're flinching. High level shooters already understand this and can discern the difference between flinching and post-shot input, beginners have no clue.
Often when shooting doubles I pull my first shot and then my second shot is dead nuts on. It happens so frequently and I'm pretty frustrated about it. Do I just need more rounds/more doubles? Or is there something specific you can diagnose that would help me? I do dry fire a lot, and sometimes dry firing in the middle of a live fire session can help the problem, but it seems like I always slide back into it.
How do you feel about laser cartridges? I dry fire with them and a targets on the wall.
Snap caps are just a tool. If you are flinching due to recoil anticipation, then you are putting too much anticipation into the gun. Mixing in snap caps should help expose that. Ben makes the point that some movement is normal and acceptable, but it is the type and magnitude of the input that has to be managed. I know that my shooting buddy and i are fairly novice and struggle with recoil anticipation and it feels like a snap cap drill could help. I will just make sure not to emphasize zero movement after the shot. I just need to mix in bill drills as well. But ammo is soo expensive 😫
It helps the shooter condition themselves. No need for an external source.
How do you know if that movement is pre ignition, anticipation or a flinch. I mean I know I have this movement but how do I know if it’s good kind or bad kind and if it’s the bad kind how do I fix it??
Is it helpful to put your focus on input (or the intention of it) during dry fire or is it only something you can practice during live fire exercises (like one shot - return)?
I am throwing on a ski mask and stealing this one.
Are snap caps necessary for a dry fire practice or can I just drive Fire with an empty gun?
Most modern guns can be dry fired safely without snap caps. Notably, many CZs can't be; it gradually destroys the firing pin retaining pin
Read the manual. Some cant. If hammer fired you can use a fitting, bright color o-ring to dampen the hammer fall. Look at his videos, follow up shots can be simulated.
The snap cap is to help beginners understand what's happening. They are far from reading their shots or watching the dot to see what they are doing. Maybe people should learn group shooting first before rapid fire.
When it comes to training this post fire input, should I try first train out the preemptive flinch then try bringing that back as input after or is it more about trying to focus on delaying that flinch?
Not the same thing. There should be no anticipation, just accept recoil, noise, flash.
There are videos specifically on how eyes on target make the pistol return.
Hop made this video 3mo ago, and no one believed him.
How the turns have tabled.
How the turn tables have…….. turned.
Michael Scott
Because Ben is credible.
Low level shooter makes YT video, no one listens. So surprising.
I believed him because the ball and dummy drill seemed to not do much for me, and the other drill where you remove the mag with a round in the chamber was moreso useful training how to clear jams and not getting rid of my flitch.
Probably cause nobody cares about either of you low level hacks 😂
Thank you, Ben, we are not worthy! Lol
I can't take you seriously without that suit on.
Also use a Mantis if not poor
👍🏾
I think Ben looks like gene wilder here
Watch a Paul Harrel video and see if he moves on a click.
You use snap caps to pretend flinch us important. I use snap caps to give them a flase hope. We are not the same. 😂
We did that at Tactical response when I took a class there just practice malfunction drills because we had Glocks and they really wouldn’t malfunction much