I went with a 22” barrel and it’s a tack driver. This video gave me a lot of information as for barrel length. This is the mechanical engineering persons scientific research….I’m liking these videos a lot
I have sawnoff rossi from 18 to around 10" with silencer which makes is as long as it was from factory and i dont see any drift or something like that at around 100yards which i tested it...but with subsonics you propably hear neighbour 3 next 3houses from you hiting nails with hammer than this toy :D
I read an article years ago that said the engineers at Anschutz conducted a similar test and had determined the optimal distance of travel down the bore for a .22 rimfire bullet was 17.5 inches.
I've got a Remington 511 Score Master with a 26" barrel, shooting CCI standard velocity at 1060fps (measured with magneto speed) is soo quiet. You don't need ear pro
@@nativewarrior5052 I believe it! I have a 24" rimfire and even with high vels it's fine out in the field. I can only imagine what a barrel twice as long with subs would be like
Very interesting. When looking at the barrel lengths where the velocity peaks appear, it's interesting to note that the intervals are 10" apart. The initial push at 16". A second push at 26" & a 3rd at 36" with the last smaller push at about 43". Since there is only one charge which produces one pressure event, it appears that the subsequent spikes must be reflections of the initial pressure event which are reflected off the base of the projectile, travel back to the breach then, reflect back to the bullet again. Great video & test guys. Really appreciate the effort & expense.
Yes, I think your reasoning is correct however, I've seen two other lots of testing done whereby they progressively shorten the barrel &, similar results were measured. I've also looked at the number of overall samples & I think that the sample number is adequate to achieve a roughly stable enough SD to support a very generalized conclusion. Although I wouldn't bet my house on the reflecting wave hypothesis, I feel that combined with the other tests I've seen, there is a reasonable argument to support continued testing.@@elonquemattheson6151
I read an article in a gun magazine 25-ish years ago where the same thing was done. They too concluded that max velocity, depending on ammunition used, was achieved between 16" to 20". The .22 LR just doesn't pack enough powder to sustain combustion beyond the 16" (approximate) point. Without sustained combustion, peak pressure falls off rapidly, as does velocity.
4:54 that 30 inch barrel group is pretty impressive. I have a Savage bolt action rifle with a 19 inch barrel and Savage semiauto with a 20 inch barrel that are really accurate. It's more me and my mindset, and the ammo used, plus a clean rifle, that make the difference. Both rifles are capable of consistent, very close groups. Great video. The information in it is priceless. Very well done. What this video proves is that the rifle makers know what they are doing. You don't need a thirty inch barrel rifle to be accurate. I have to admit. Every time they cut the barrel, I winced. Because that was a very high quality rifle barrel. But research required the sacrifice.
The SD didn't really change that much. Your averages are still a flat line through the middle of the noise. The 10x per cut were still a relatively small sample size, but I get not wanting to shoot 50x per cut. I think the most impressive thing is the barrel quality was very good and the bullet was just coasting out and not getting squibbed.
2:00 For one thing you're allowing the cartridge to have full burn. I wouldn't be surprised if you chopped that thing down about a foot that you see an increase in velocity.
I went with a 26" Bartlein benchrest barrel on my Vudoo for looks alone. Love the looks of a 26". 👍 But it does happen to balance perfectly as an added bonus.
@@samw2768 Take it up with Vudoo then as they told me it was a Bartlein benchrest barrel. All I wanted was a 26" barrel regardless of the type or brand; it shoots great is the bottom line for me. My favorite barrel is a Benchmark but they didn't stock it at the time.
@Sagittariustoo you take it up with them. I'm not the one that lied 😅. Bartlein barrels are not used in benchrest they are cut rifled and we use button barrels in benchrest. Wither shilen,muller,benchmark, or hart and they are all buttoned. Ask them why they lied to sell you a gun
@@samw2768 At this point I don't care as I'm pleased with the way it shoots but I might contact Bartlein and ask if they make 22 rimfire benchrest barrels. If I do, I will let you know what they say. Or, do you believe Bartlein will lie also?
Very cool and informative video - thank you! To summarize, 22 LR ammo will typically expend its burnt powder in 20” barrel lengths, and achieve max velocity at the muzzle. So anything longer than 20” is likely attributed to added bullet stabilization over longer ranges shot to achieve the desired accuracy (which varies over distance) at pre-determined yardage shot.
Very interesting. I wonder how harmonics played in the length of the barrel.. It would have been nice to see the shift in the groups as you trimmed the barrel…
Great work. I have a couple of wacky rifle ideas, not expecting anyone to try it just some things i thought of while watching this video. 1 Rifled smoothbore barrel combo. Basically, the first part of the barrel is rifled to provide the spin, followed by an extra section of smoothbore. My theory is that there would be enough rotational energy in the bullet part way down the barrel and the extra section would facilitate additional acceleration of the projectile. 2 Pre-spun smoothbore. Here an electric motor would spin the cartridge before firing through a smoothbore rifle. Without rifling more of the energy would be used to accelerate the bullet which already has the necessary spin for stability.
Thank you for a creative and most interesting video of the 22 caliber. There are 4 points that I am calling "nodes" or high points. They occur at 43", 36", 26" & 16". One would expect an increase in speed as the barrel gets longer rather than shorter but that is not what you found. The highest node occurs at 16". Am disappointed because I am saving my nickels and dimes for a 26" Vudoo which would only yield about 1060 fps. I had hoped for the most accurate shooting at 26" but that did not happen. Anyhow, again, thank you for sharing. Still saving my nickels and dimes and will probably go with the 16" barrel. Have to wonder what would have happened if you had gone in the opposite direction, starting with a 12" barrel then longer and longer. That, however, would have required a LOT of barrels. Please continue your research.
If you watch "Smarter Every Day" video with the transparent suppressors, you can see a point where the pressure "sloshes" back and forth. I wonder if that is happening inside the barrel, and the velocities are affected by the wave sloshing forward or backward..
Did you guys do any kind of break in before the video. The velocity will change as the bore gets coated with the lube on the bullets and that takes more shots the longer the barrel is.
It all depends on the ammunition. Try powder coated bullets, they are far slipperier than normal wax or grease coated bullets. Also try using slower powder. 22lr powders vary some. I use Hodgdon HS 6. But if I were to develop a cartridge for a 40" barrel I would obviously go with a slower powder.
Interesting that there's a spike at around 26" because the Anschütz Olympic target rifles barrel length options are 25.9" and 27.1". It's interesting that there's only a difference of 20 feet per second between 30" and 18". A difference like that you don't really need to worry about. The barrel length can therefore be chosen to suit whatever style of shooting you intend to do. A longer heavy barrel is going to dampen vibrations and micro movements coming from the shooter like the stabilising rod on an Olympic bow. Sight radius is massively important for Olympic and other no-scope competitions. Along barrel will however increase the action time but only 1 millisecond per 12". With so many considerations it all depends on your intended use for that gun.
They list barrel length as 660mm and 690mm not sure if that is the actual length or just rounded. 660mm is 25.984" so not sure if the 25.9" you listed is actual. Would be interesting to know why they settled on these 2 barrel lengths.
I am pretty shocked by these test results, after seeing the results with 308, I would have thought the velocity would increase like it did with the 308. Really interesting stuff. I love the tests you guys do.
@@ceoelektronika8604 Yeah, for sure powder selection will make a difference. I have doubts that it would be enough of a difference to explain the polar opposite results we are seeing here compared to 308. It would be a cool thing to test though.
.22lr is loaded with a relatively fast burning powder much like a pistol/shotgun powder that after about 16 inches you will start to see velocity drop by about 32 inches their is hardly any gases behind the bullet and you get a suppressor effect.
I love these tests. Please test a 22-284 starting with a 52" barrel and cutting an inch each time. I think this being a pretty big overbore 22 centerfire may yield some interesting data as there is so much powder to burn for such a small 0.224 bore diameter. I like that you cleaned up the crown and threads after each cut on this test. I had read somewhere that 16" barrels were optimum for the 22LR so that part of the data was not surprising, I was surprised it maintained as much velocity as it did with all the extra length.
It all depends on the rate of burn for the gunpowder you're using. A hotter gunpowder can be efficient with a shorter barrel, but you have to be very careful not to overpressure the breach, or have too much powder which is wasted in the form of a large muzzle blast (fireball).
As some other viewers have commented, I would really like to see this done with a variety of ammunition. I would recommend using hypervelocity like stingers as well as ammo designed for short barrels like the federal punch.
I think what might be the way to go is what I did. On my ar22 I ended up with a 16.5" barrel. The balance sucked so put a 7" extension on it. Doesn't make it shoot any different that I can tell, but it balances right in front of the magazine now. And 16" for close to optimal length.
You better take an insight look by those who are producing .22 lr sportrifles for olympic shooters for centuries like Anschütz, Walther, Steyr and Feinwerkbau
I tend to be between 12-16 inches when all said and done (balasted to ballance) lock time becomes the main factor integrating the human ellement in the system, especially in multiposition stressful comps.
Barrel time for the projectile can be an important consideration from the standpoint of accuracy. Small bore 3P shooters will run a shorter barrel with a “bloop tube” to minimize the effects of barrel movements(all disciplines)on bullet release but still retains sight radius(specific to 3P shooting). These disciplines are different animals but something to consider if your not shooting from a rock solid position.
Let’s say 1050 fps . That is 12600 inch per second On 18 inch barrel . Barrel time = 0.00143 second On 26 inch barrel . Barrel time = 0.00206 second A difference of 0.0006 second Your eye lid would not even travel 1/4 way in 0.0006 seconds
Longer barrels have more time to push the lead than short barrels do but yes they add more drag so I'm interested in what you find as a good length. Thanks
I think one factor that would affect the efficiency of the burn, the rate of expansion of the gas and how it builds/progresses (within the cartridge vs in the barrel) would come from the fact that .22 is a straight-walled cartridge and .308 is necked down. I would love to see some error bars on the initial plot of velocity as a function of barrel length rather than just having a second plot with the std dev. Also wondering what the instrumental uncertainty is on the chrono. At first I though the wave(s) might just be noise, but think there is definitely a trend. Would be nice to improve the robustness of your experiments. I think there is a lot of potential for taking things from interest/conjecture to real science!
I know you cannot keep cutting up barrels for every brand and type of .22 LR out there, but I would love to see the results of length versus velocity with the faster .22 LR offerings, such as the CCI Stinger, Aguila SuperMaximum, and the CCI Copper 22 21 gr. HV round. It would be interesting to see if the length versus velocity graph seen with standard velocity cartridges would be similar for the HV cartidges.
FWIW, when I shot big timey 22 BR, my smith (Gordon Eck) would choose barrel length based on where the tightest portion of the bore was. Among other things
You'd be 100% correct. We also use button rifled barrels not cut rifled. This test proved absolute nothing except looking stupid as hell and wasting ammo.
This would be cool to revisit the data and use some basic stats test to determine statistical significance for the barrel lengths. Theres some online tools that are useful
I wonder if the results might be different with higher power loads that advertise speeds between 1400 and 1700fps. Maybe consider trying the test again with subsonic, standard, and hyper velocity loads.
I don't see a microphone attached to your labradar so that means you're most likely using the doppler function to capture the speeds. This is the least accurate way to use the labradar and could have affected your results. Neat test in any case. I would have predicted a much more significant speed loss.
If you have a longer barrel, you need larger cordite grains. Otherwise, your pressure rise is wasted by peaking too soon in the combustion cycle/bullet travel. .50BMG doesn't have slower powder because it's wider. It has slower powder because the barrel is longer. For those who don't believe or know this, try some fast-burning pistol powder in someone else's .50BMG-chambered rifle. From a distance. See how your m.v. is.
Anschutz discovered this decades ago, it's why the 27.5" barrel exists, and to improved harmonics of any length you fit a barrel tuner to tighten up your groups to the harmonic sweet spot between your chosen ammunition and your barrel.
How much of the velocity loss is comming from bearing surface friction as apposed to any sort of vacuum being pulled behind the bullet as its traveling down the barrel or is there not enough of a tight fit in the chamber to provide a vauum fit
Interesting video ! There are so many variables and personal needs it can be mind boggling ! What are you going to use it for and how accurate and effective do you need it to be would be my first question !
With 4ft barrel 22lr propably may not even leave it :D basicly 22lr dont need anything more than 10", there is just not enought powder to use it. If 223rem with same bore volume dont gain anything after 22-24in what the point of using 22lr with such long barrel. Its basicly goes down to mechanical sight. Its totaly different if You use scope.
I didnt hear distances that this barrel was shot at these lengths. I have a Remington 572 with a 23.5" barrel and I can tell you its accuracy at 50 yds sucks but at 100 it kicks ass. I also have a Ruger precision rimfire with a 20" Shaw barrel that is very accurate at 50 but drops off at 100. Now I wasnt running high dollar ammo through them. I used CCI SV in both. Anybody know why?
All sorts of things could be happening in this case, it is hard to tell for just this information. Also, its a pump action rather then a bolt action which we are familiar with. Ammo could also be playing a factor like you mentioned.
@@MDTTAC A pump locks up solid like a bolt action. A bolt is the better for shooting competition IMHO. I will say that the pump has always been that way at 100yds. Its not near as ammo sensitive as what I see with bolts. What I have come to realize is you can throw a ton of money at these bolt actions, only to be at the mercy of the ones that load the bullets. With me it comes down to it being more work and not much fun because of it.
That tells me, and I have a theory, that the powder is actually burning erratic. I think all powder does, and my theory is due to graphite coating thickness variance on modern treated powder. It would be interesting to see non-flash-deadening powders.
You need 4.5 inches of barrel to stabilise a .22LR and 16.5 inches to get optimum velocity it’s suprised me to see the velocity slowing down past 17 inches
Personally I think if the junction of the 2 barrels didn`t create a problem then more than likely the crowning of the rifle each time wasn`t done correctly however was the purpose of this experiment to see when the velocity changed or when the accuracy decreased because it sounds to me like you are just worried about the speed of the bullet and not how true the bullet flies.
i feel blue balled i really wanted to see the figures for shorter then 12, still cool though espeshily the data about barrel droop, really goes to show why leveling your rifle before the shot is so important, so it droops in the same plane as the rifle is zero'd. i wonder how much tempeture affects barrel droop even on cold bore shots at those lenghts.
Not surprised that velocity went up as the barrel got shorter, but it's not all about speed. I would have liked to see a larger number of shots with SDs as the barrel was cut shorter. As long as the velocity spread is low, long range performance will not change much even if there is a slight velocity change. I would even argue that velocity spread is more important than average speed. On the other hand, it likely will have the most consistent velocity at the length with the highest velocity.... But we missed the opportunity to prove it. Maybe next time guys.
@L.V-Rider Saying it and proving it is two different things. I'm not saying you're wrong and I tend to agree, but it can be difficult to prove factually given the variables involved.
Interesting that you used subsonic. Why not hivel ?. I have Brno model 4 with 26 1/2" barrel. Standard velocity of advertised 1255 of most brand ammo. I am getting 1280+/- 10 depending on brand. Interesting fun though.😎
had the same question as you... would have like to have seen the results with high velocity rounds... If your gonna wack up a 300 dollar barrel at least run 300 dollars of ammo through it
Boss i have a question if we put custom barrel on cz 600 can it produce 20 shot accuracy in 5 minus shooting ? I hope you understand im sorry for my english
Bore volume on longer barrels doesn’t seem like it’s significant enough to reduce pressure enough to have friction overcome pressure. Don’t know what bore pressure is when the bullet is 1” from muzzle on an 18” barrel, but let’s say it’s 8k psi. It’s been a while since I used quickload, but I remember center fire pressures being 10-20kpsi when the bullet has almost exited. Assuming 22lr is lower pressure. 2.5x longer barrel = 2.5x less pressure, which is still 3k psi, which I believe is the pressure high end air guns operate under.
Yeah, 22 LR has a maximum pressure of 24,000 PSI which is pretty low for a rifle. Also, 22 LR is a tiny bullet. It therefore has a larger surface area to volume ratio compared to other calibers and should slow down more easily. Also, the bullet diameter is tiny and so is the area the gasses are pushing on. At 3,000 PSI we are only talking about 114 lbs of force being generated by the propellant gasses.
You need to match your cordite to your barrel length. Long barrels need a slower burn. It's why artillery has cordite that looks like quarter-rolls of pennies in size. The key is to match your burn to the length of the barrel.
I will subscribe to see if you do a video on .243 I would like to know if 16inch barrel is too short for .243 and if so what exactly is lost velocity accuracy etc.
I went with a 22” barrel and it’s a tack driver. This video gave me a lot of information as for barrel length. This is the mechanical engineering persons scientific research….I’m liking these videos a lot
Thank you!
I have sawnoff rossi from 18 to around 10" with silencer which makes is as long as it was from factory and i dont see any drift or something like that at around 100yards which i tested it...but with subsonics you propably hear neighbour 3 next 3houses from you hiting nails with hammer than this toy :D
I read an article years ago that said the engineers at Anschutz conducted a similar test and had determined the optimal distance of travel down the bore for a .22 rimfire bullet was 17.5 inches.
But 14 inches for a subsonic
Man, it would've been awesome to get a sound meter in there. I'd bet anything past 30" probably starts to sound like it was suppressed. Great test
I've got a Remington 511 Score Master with a 26" barrel, shooting CCI standard velocity at 1060fps (measured with magneto speed) is soo quiet. You don't need ear pro
@@nativewarrior5052 I believe it! I have a 24" rimfire and even with high vels it's fine out in the field. I can only imagine what a barrel twice as long with subs would be like
True, even a 22 inch sounds almost as quiet as suppressed
28 inch bull barrel with cci standard makes less noise than a suppressed pistol.
Very interesting.
When looking at the barrel lengths where the velocity peaks appear, it's interesting to note that the intervals are 10" apart.
The initial push at 16". A second push at 26" & a 3rd at 36" with the last smaller push at about 43".
Since there is only one charge which produces one pressure event, it appears that the subsequent spikes must be reflections of the initial pressure event which are reflected off the base of the projectile, travel back to the breach then, reflect back to the bullet again.
Great video & test guys. Really appreciate the effort & expense.
Those "peaks" are so small that they could be explained away as artefacts from the ammo. Remember that the standard deviation is 8 fps on these.
Yes, I think your reasoning is correct however, I've seen two other lots of testing done whereby they progressively shorten the barrel &, similar results were measured. I've also looked at the number of overall samples & I think that the sample number is adequate to achieve a roughly stable enough SD to support a very generalized conclusion.
Although I wouldn't bet my house on the reflecting wave hypothesis, I feel that combined with the other tests I've seen, there is a reasonable argument to support continued testing.@@elonquemattheson6151
I read an article in a gun magazine 25-ish years ago where the same thing was done. They too concluded that max velocity, depending on ammunition used, was achieved between 16" to 20".
The .22 LR just doesn't pack enough powder to sustain combustion beyond the 16" (approximate) point. Without sustained combustion, peak pressure falls off rapidly, as does velocity.
This test just showed that velocity doesn’t fall off rapidly.. atleast not in this barrel.
The groupings are also a factor of "barrel whip," the tendency of a barrel to resonate as the projectile passes through it.
4:54 that 30 inch barrel group is pretty impressive. I have a Savage bolt action rifle with a 19 inch barrel and Savage semiauto with a 20 inch barrel that are really accurate. It's more me and my mindset, and the ammo used, plus a clean rifle, that make the difference. Both rifles are capable of consistent, very close groups. Great video. The information in it is priceless. Very well done. What this video proves is that the rifle makers know what they are doing. You don't need a thirty inch barrel rifle to be accurate. I have to admit. Every time they cut the barrel, I winced. Because that was a very high quality rifle barrel. But research required the sacrifice.
The SD didn't really change that much. Your averages are still a flat line through the middle of the noise. The 10x per cut were still a relatively small sample size, but I get not wanting to shoot 50x per cut.
I think the most impressive thing is the barrel quality was very good and the bullet was just coasting out and not getting squibbed.
2:00 For one thing you're allowing the cartridge to have full burn.
I wouldn't be surprised if you chopped that thing down about a foot that you see an increase in velocity.
I went with a 26" Bartlein benchrest barrel on my Vudoo for looks alone.
Love the looks of a 26". 👍
But it does happen to balance perfectly as an added bonus.
My Remington 511 Score Master has a factory 26" barrel, it's a tack driver and handles so well
Bartlein are not 22 benchrest barrels. We don't use cut rifling in benchrest. The top barrels are button rifled and taper lapped
@@samw2768 Take it up with Vudoo then as they told me it was a Bartlein benchrest barrel.
All I wanted was a 26" barrel regardless of the type or brand; it shoots great is the bottom line for me.
My favorite barrel is a Benchmark but they didn't stock it at the time.
@Sagittariustoo you take it up with them. I'm not the one that lied 😅. Bartlein barrels are not used in benchrest they are cut rifled and we use button barrels in benchrest. Wither shilen,muller,benchmark, or hart and they are all buttoned. Ask them why they lied to sell you a gun
@@samw2768 At this point I don't care as I'm pleased with the way it shoots but I might contact Bartlein and ask if they make 22 rimfire benchrest barrels. If I do, I will let you know what they say. Or, do you believe Bartlein will lie also?
Very cool and informative video - thank you! To summarize, 22 LR ammo will typically expend its burnt powder in 20” barrel lengths, and achieve max velocity at the muzzle. So anything longer than 20” is likely attributed to added bullet stabilization over longer ranges shot to achieve the desired accuracy (which varies over distance) at pre-determined yardage shot.
Very interesting. I wonder how harmonics played in the length of the barrel.. It would have been nice to see the shift in the groups as you trimmed the barrel…
Great work. I have a couple of wacky rifle ideas, not expecting anyone to try it just some things i thought of while watching this video.
1 Rifled smoothbore barrel combo. Basically, the first part of the barrel is rifled to provide the spin, followed by an extra section of smoothbore. My theory is that there would be enough rotational energy in the bullet part way down the barrel and the extra section would facilitate additional acceleration of the projectile.
2 Pre-spun smoothbore. Here an electric motor would spin the cartridge before firing through a smoothbore rifle. Without rifling more of the energy would be used to accelerate the bullet which already has the necessary spin for stability.
Thank you for a creative and most interesting video of the 22 caliber. There are 4 points that I am calling "nodes" or high points. They occur at 43", 36", 26" & 16". One would expect an increase in speed as the barrel gets longer rather than shorter but that is not what you found. The highest node occurs at 16". Am disappointed because I am saving my nickels and dimes for a 26" Vudoo which would only yield about 1060 fps. I had hoped for the most accurate shooting at 26" but that did not happen. Anyhow, again, thank you for sharing. Still saving my nickels and dimes and will probably go with the 16" barrel. Have to wonder what would have happened if you had gone in the opposite direction, starting with a 12" barrel then longer and longer. That, however, would have required a LOT of barrels. Please continue your research.
Love these tests. Keep them up 👍🏾
Very interesting video, it certainly gives a shooter perspective on how much barrel lengths matter, or don’t!
If you watch "Smarter Every Day" video with the transparent suppressors, you can see a point where the pressure "sloshes" back and forth. I wonder if that is happening inside the barrel, and the velocities are affected by the wave sloshing forward or backward..
I too, am very surprised by the results of this great test.
Thanks for all your work in doing this and showing us the results.
Great content. Would be intersting to see the results with different ammo types, fast vs slower ammo.
really wish you would have tested more variety of 22 lr ammo. still a very cool test!
Did you guys do any kind of break in before the video. The velocity will change as the bore gets coated with the lube on the bullets and that takes more shots the longer the barrel is.
My uploaded 22 chrono test series showed quite clearly that modern 22 ammunition is optimized for 16 inch barrel
Mind blowing . Great idea and test. My next chassis will be MDT just to support your time . Thanks again.
Great technical insights, exactly what I was looking for, thanks 👍
It all depends on the ammunition. Try powder coated bullets, they are far slipperier than normal wax or grease coated bullets. Also try using slower powder. 22lr powders vary some. I use Hodgdon HS 6. But if I were to develop a cartridge for a 40" barrel I would obviously go with a slower powder.
Interesting that there's a spike at around 26" because the Anschütz Olympic target rifles barrel length options are 25.9" and 27.1". It's interesting that there's only a difference of 20 feet per second between 30" and 18". A difference like that you don't really need to worry about. The barrel length can therefore be chosen to suit whatever style of shooting you intend to do. A longer heavy barrel is going to dampen vibrations and micro movements coming from the shooter like the stabilising rod on an Olympic bow. Sight radius is massively important for Olympic and other no-scope competitions. Along barrel will however increase the action time but only 1 millisecond per 12".
With so many considerations it all depends on your intended use for that gun.
They list barrel length as 660mm and 690mm not sure if that is the actual length or just rounded. 660mm is 25.984" so not sure if the 25.9" you listed is actual. Would be interesting to know why they settled on these 2 barrel lengths.
I am pretty shocked by these test results, after seeing the results with 308, I would have thought the velocity would increase like it did with the 308. Really interesting stuff. I love the tests you guys do.
A) Compare the volume of powder with the volume of barrel
B) Is the cordite sized for a longer barrel, or is it formulated to burn more slowly?
@@ceoelektronika8604 Yeah, for sure powder selection will make a difference. I have doubts that it would be enough of a difference to explain the polar opposite results we are seeing here compared to 308. It would be a cool thing to test though.
@@ceoelektronika8604we haven't used cordite in nearly a century. .22lr powder is close to a few different kinds of smokeless shotgun/pistol powder.
@@ceoelektronika8604cordite? It’s called smokeless powder nobody has used cordite since the 1960’s.
.22lr is loaded with a relatively fast burning powder much like a pistol/shotgun powder that after about 16 inches you will start to see velocity drop by about 32 inches their is hardly any gases behind the bullet and you get a suppressor effect.
I love these tests.
Please test a 22-284 starting with a 52" barrel and cutting an inch each time. I think this being a pretty big overbore 22 centerfire may yield some interesting data as there is so much powder to burn for such a small 0.224 bore diameter.
I like that you cleaned up the crown and threads after each cut on this test.
I had read somewhere that 16" barrels were optimum for the 22LR so that part of the data was not surprising, I was surprised it maintained as much velocity as it did with all the extra length.
I would be interested in seeing the crowning process and tooling.. more 22lr content please!.
It all depends on the rate of burn for the gunpowder you're using. A hotter gunpowder can be efficient with a shorter barrel, but you have to be very careful not to overpressure the breach, or have too much powder which is wasted in the form of a large muzzle blast (fireball).
Only need I have for a long barrel is it is more ideal for peep sights, giving me finer sight adjustment value and easier focus on front sight.
I couldn't help but wonder if you guys felt this was a waste of time. But it wasn't. This was exactly what I needed to see, well done.
Thank you
As some other viewers have commented, I would really like to see this done with a variety of ammunition. I would recommend using hypervelocity like stingers as well as ammo designed for short barrels like the federal punch.
I think what might be the way to go is what I did.
On my ar22 I ended up with a 16.5" barrel. The balance sucked so put a 7" extension on it. Doesn't make it shoot any different that I can tell, but it balances right in front of the magazine now. And 16" for close to optimal length.
You better take an insight look by those who are producing .22 lr sportrifles for olympic shooters for centuries like Anschütz, Walther, Steyr and Feinwerkbau
Speed is fine however accuracy is the point for all rifles
I tend to be between 12-16 inches when all said and done (balasted to ballance) lock time becomes the main factor integrating the human ellement in the system, especially in multiposition stressful comps.
Greetings from the sunny south Okanagan, thanks for the very interesting video! The results were not what I'd expected to see for sure. Stay well.
Barrel time for the projectile can be an important consideration from the standpoint of accuracy. Small bore 3P shooters will run a shorter barrel with a “bloop tube” to minimize the effects of barrel movements(all disciplines)on bullet release but still retains sight radius(specific to 3P shooting). These disciplines are different animals but something to consider if your not shooting from a rock solid position.
Let’s say 1050 fps .
That is 12600 inch per second
On 18 inch barrel . Barrel time = 0.00143 second
On 26 inch barrel . Barrel time = 0.00206 second
A difference of 0.0006 second
Your eye lid would not even travel 1/4 way in 0.0006 seconds
I would be interested in seeing the crowning process and tooling.
Longer barrels have more time to push the lead than short barrels do but yes they add more drag so I'm interested in what you find as a good length.
Thanks
Good testing! Got you another subscriber!
Thanks for watching and we will make sure to keep the content coming
I think one factor that would affect the efficiency of the burn, the rate of expansion of the gas and how it builds/progresses (within the cartridge vs in the barrel) would come from the fact that .22 is a straight-walled cartridge and .308 is necked down. I would love to see some error bars on the initial plot of velocity as a function of barrel length rather than just having a second plot with the std dev. Also wondering what the instrumental uncertainty is on the chrono. At first I though the wave(s) might just be noise, but think there is definitely a trend. Would be nice to improve the robustness of your experiments. I think there is a lot of potential for taking things from interest/conjecture to real science!
i was hoping 600 fps too. Amazing.
20 .inch has always been best for me. And after watching your video I see why. Great video
great tests, keep them coming.
Inconclusive results. My favorite.
Maybe it is the quality of the ammo.
Det or def wave may have had first or second harmonic at that length, really worth remembering
I enjoyed this video. I'd like to see another with the 22 WMR CCI 40 grain SG load.
Just stumbled onto your channel, got a new subscriber here, nice test!
I know you cannot keep cutting up barrels for every brand and type of .22 LR out there, but I would love to see the results of length versus velocity with the faster .22 LR offerings, such as the CCI Stinger, Aguila SuperMaximum, and the CCI Copper 22 21 gr. HV round. It would be interesting to see if the length versus velocity graph seen with standard velocity cartridges would be similar for the HV cartidges.
FWIW, when I shot big timey 22 BR, my smith (Gordon Eck) would choose barrel length based on where the tightest portion of the bore was. Among other things
You'd be 100% correct. We also use button rifled barrels not cut rifled. This test proved absolute nothing except looking stupid as hell and wasting ammo.
Should have tested also high and hyper velocities
Seems crazy to go through all that and only test standard velocity. I would bet HV 22LR's would see velocity gains at longer barrel lengths.
Always love these testing videos you guys do! This one leaves me scratching my head on what’s ideal now.🤣🤣🤣
This would be cool to revisit the data and use some basic stats test to determine statistical significance for the barrel lengths. Theres some online tools that are useful
I always love these videos! I can't wait to see the one for 5.56!!
I wonder if the results might be different with higher power loads that advertise speeds between 1400 and 1700fps. Maybe consider trying the test again with subsonic, standard, and hyper velocity loads.
Right now have a 17" for my 22. Looking for a 20" one right now.
wish you would have tested it with hyper velocity ammo as well- Velocitor or stinger
These scientific test are great videos! Real fun to see and learn!
Thanks MDT!
I don't see a microphone attached to your labradar so that means you're most likely using the doppler function to capture the speeds. This is the least accurate way to use the labradar and could have affected your results. Neat test in any case. I would have predicted a much more significant speed loss.
4:30 those squirrels don't stand a chance
If you have a longer barrel, you need larger cordite grains.
Otherwise, your pressure rise is wasted by peaking too soon in the combustion cycle/bullet travel.
.50BMG doesn't have slower powder because it's wider. It has slower powder because the barrel is longer.
For those who don't believe or know this, try some fast-burning pistol powder in someone else's .50BMG-chambered rifle. From a distance. See how your m.v. is.
Nice.
Appropriate powder burn for the length of bore travel.
Would be nice to see that 4-in barrel with a slower burning powder.
Doing this with Aguila SuperMax ammo that runs closer to 1800fps would be interesting!
Anschutz discovered this decades ago, it's why the 27.5" barrel exists, and to improved harmonics of any length you fit a barrel tuner to tighten up your groups to the harmonic sweet spot between your chosen ammunition and your barrel.
Its actually a very well known fact in the br world that long 22lr barrels help lower sd/es due to friction.
How much of the velocity loss is comming from bearing surface friction as apposed to any sort of vacuum being pulled behind the bullet as its traveling down the barrel or is there not enough of a tight fit in the chamber to provide a vauum fit
such a cool test bench of barrel. never seen anything like that
I've known for a long time 16" is the sweet spot because all the powder in sub sonic is burned up at 14" and 16" for high velocity loadings.
That's a neat test!
Depends on the burn rate of your powder. still pushing along the entire length of barrel
Interesting video ! There are so many variables and personal needs it can be mind boggling !
What are you going to use it for and how accurate and effective do you need it to be would be my first question !
Very important questions to ask first
With 4ft barrel 22lr propably may not even leave it :D basicly 22lr dont need anything more than 10", there is just not enought powder to use it. If 223rem with same bore volume dont gain anything after 22-24in what the point of using 22lr with such long barrel. Its basicly goes down to mechanical sight. Its totaly different if You use scope.
How quiet was the extra long barrel? I had read that extra long (28"+) .22lrs are almost suppressor quiet when fired with subsonic ammo.
Great Test, Can we Please see the same test for the 22 Magnum. P.S. Pretty Please
We will have to see, I will pass it onto the team
would be interesting to do in 22 Win Mag or 17HMR again... =)
So what is the best barrel for accuracy?
For Rimfire, it is the 20 to 22" length
@MDTTAC thank you so much!
I didnt hear distances that this barrel was shot at these lengths. I have a Remington 572 with a 23.5" barrel and I can tell you its accuracy at 50 yds sucks but at 100 it kicks ass. I also have a Ruger precision rimfire with a 20" Shaw barrel that is very accurate at 50 but drops off at 100. Now I wasnt running high dollar ammo through them. I used CCI SV in both. Anybody know why?
All sorts of things could be happening in this case, it is hard to tell for just this information. Also, its a pump action rather then a bolt action which we are familiar with. Ammo could also be playing a factor like you mentioned.
@@MDTTAC A pump locks up solid like a bolt action. A bolt is the better for shooting competition IMHO. I will say that the pump has always been that way at 100yds. Its not near as ammo sensitive as what I see with bolts. What I have come to realize is you can throw a ton of money at these bolt actions, only to be at the mercy of the ones that load the bullets. With me it comes down to it being more work and not much fun because of it.
That tells me, and I have a theory, that the powder is actually burning erratic. I think all powder does, and my theory is due to graphite coating thickness variance on modern treated powder. It would be interesting to see non-flash-deadening powders.
What ammunition was used? It didn’t seem consistent to me on it’s speed.
You need 4.5 inches of barrel to stabilise a .22LR and 16.5 inches to get optimum velocity it’s suprised me to see the velocity slowing down past 17 inches
have yall done videos like this for the other common calibers?.308, 5.56, .270??
The longer the barrel the more speed it produce or?
Which ammunition did you use? FPS/grains, etc.
So 16 to 20" are best for velocity. Have a 16, 17 & 20" for my 10/22.
Personally I think if the junction of the 2 barrels didn`t create a problem then more than likely the crowning of the rifle each time wasn`t done correctly however was the purpose of this experiment to see when the velocity changed or when the accuracy decreased because it sounds to me like you are just worried about the speed of the bullet and not how true the bullet flies.
Have a 17" on mine. Does great, thinking of the 12" one.
i feel blue balled i really wanted to see the figures for shorter then 12, still cool though espeshily the data about barrel droop, really goes to show why leveling your rifle before the shot is so important, so it droops in the same plane as the rifle is zero'd.
i wonder how much tempeture affects barrel droop even on cold bore shots at those lenghts.
Not surprised that velocity went up as the barrel got shorter, but it's not all about speed. I would have liked to see a larger number of shots with SDs as the barrel was cut shorter. As long as the velocity spread is low, long range performance will not change much even if there is a slight velocity change. I would even argue that velocity spread is more important than average speed. On the other hand, it likely will have the most consistent velocity at the length with the highest velocity.... But we missed the opportunity to prove it. Maybe next time guys.
@L.V-Rider Saying it and proving it is two different things. I'm not saying you're wrong and I tend to agree, but it can be difficult to prove factually given the variables involved.
Interesting that you used subsonic.
Why not hivel ?. I have Brno model 4 with 26 1/2" barrel. Standard velocity of advertised 1255 of most brand ammo. I am getting 1280+/- 10 depending on brand.
Interesting fun though.😎
had the same question as you... would have like to have seen the results with high velocity rounds... If your gonna wack up a 300 dollar barrel at least run 300 dollars of ammo through it
Short barrel and heavy steel suppressor is the way to go. Use the Ase Utra.
May be you should do something like this cal by cal.
Very cool...but why did it slightly gain speed @26 inches?
Can you talk about the sound profile?
Boss i have a question if we put custom barrel on cz 600 can it produce 20 shot accuracy in 5 minus shooting ? I hope you understand im sorry for my english
It would be best to ask an barrel manufacturer on that one.
@@MDTTAC thanks ❤️
Awesome video.
Bore volume on longer barrels doesn’t seem like it’s significant enough to reduce pressure enough to have friction overcome pressure.
Don’t know what bore pressure is when the bullet is 1” from muzzle on an 18” barrel, but let’s say it’s 8k psi. It’s been a while since I used quickload, but I remember center fire pressures being 10-20kpsi when the bullet has almost exited. Assuming 22lr is lower pressure.
2.5x longer barrel = 2.5x less pressure, which is still 3k psi, which I believe is the pressure high end air guns operate under.
Yeah, 22 LR has a maximum pressure of 24,000 PSI which is pretty low for a rifle. Also, 22 LR is a tiny bullet. It therefore has a larger surface area to volume ratio compared to other calibers and should slow down more easily. Also, the bullet diameter is tiny and so is the area the gasses are pushing on. At 3,000 PSI we are only talking about 114 lbs of force being generated by the propellant gasses.
You need to match your cordite to your barrel length. Long barrels need a slower burn. It's why artillery has cordite that looks like quarter-rolls of pennies in size. The key is to match your burn to the length of the barrel.
I will subscribe to see if you do a video on .243 I would like to know if 16inch barrel is too short for .243 and if so what exactly is lost velocity accuracy etc.
Wish you would have used a 1250 fps or faster ammo too.
Id be more interested in seeing the effects on SD when cutting the barrel.
It’s in there at the 4:35 mark.
@Nicholas N thanks. I gotta look back and see if it's in the .308 video