This Age and the Age to Come: Understanding Eschatology with Matt Waymeyer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 พ.ย. 2022
- How should we understand this age and the age to come? In this episode, we talk about what is probably the best argument for Amillennialism. Matt Waymeyer walks us through the eschatological framework employed by the amillennialist, focusing on the argument that the two ages, this age and the age to come, make an intermediate kingdom impossible. We talk about how premillennialism best accounts for the Old Testament prophecies and allows Revelation 20 to be interpreted in a straightforward manner.
Get Matt Waymeyer's book: www.amazon.com/Amillennialism...
#eschatology
#premillennialism
#amillennialism
#theology
#prophecy
#twoage
#Zechariah14
#revelation
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"Exegetically derived and systematically expressed." That's gold.
An important principle to live by.
Interesting discussion. The comments section as well.
For me personally, I found Ironside suggestion on these matters very helpful. Namely, we can only fully understand these matters when we embrace the angelic realm as well.
Very briefly, the angles watch diligently into the salvation of man.
They were present when God spoke the material world into existence. Job 38:7.
The angels will witness the millennium period with Satan bound a thousand years, yet the consequence of sin will still take its toll.
So if we realise that this material universe was created to destroy evil; a better understanding of God's plan of salvation is achieved.
Helpful analysis, thank you. I think there is often more to the issues than we first realize.
Thanks for this discussion. I've been looking into amill vs premil off and on for a couple years now and have leaned amill throughout that time. Ive been wrestling with some things myself which has lead me to strongly consider premil again in my own eschatological study journey and discussions such as yhis help a lot.
I really appreciate you sharing that. I'm always thankful to hear when God uses our resources to help people think through the Bible. I pray the Lord uses these resources to help others like you. Blessings!
If I recall correctly, it was Waymeyer that i heard discussing his decision on where to go to seminary with Trevor Craigen, and asking if he had to decide on his eschatological position. Craigen told him that if he was to teach the whole counsel of God, he would need to make that decision!
I haven't read his book yet, but wonder what emphasis he would place on the "mediatorial kingdom"? I found that expression from Alva McClain very helpful since the millennial kingdom means that God's original purpose for a man to rule this world is fulfilled in a literal, earthly, political kingdom. Likewise the language of Psalm 2 and Daniel 2, etc.
Although I can't always speak for Matt on these issues, I do know he would be okay with using the term mediatorial kingdom, and very much appreciates McClain's work! Both Waymeyer and Vlach are influenced by McClain (and I am too through Waymeyer and Vlach).
Very helpful. Including common idioms that amillennialists use would also be helpful. I live in an area where amillennialism is prolific but attend a church holding to premill. The schools and community at-large is filled with amill thinking. I also have Waymeyer's book but have only read over it. This motivates me to read it in full.
Good stuff.
Thanks for watching. Glad the Lord could use it!
Just bought the book based on this interview.
Maybe you can help me to expand my learning in certain areas. What would you say is a good book to help with understanding and practicing exegesis?
And would you recommend another work that addresses post-mill, especially from a dispensational perspective?
Great John! One of my favorite books on understanding and practicing exegesis is Grasping Gods Word by Duval and Hays. Also, Abner Chou’s book on the apostolic hermeneutic is good (but a little more advanced that Grasping Gods Word).
Sadly there has not been a postmill critique in awhile! Part of the reason is because it was essentially dead for 40 years. It is a recent resurgence. Perhaps one older work you might appreciate was The End Times Controversy by Lahaye and Ice. A cheaper alternative critique from earlier would be James Hall Brookes Till He Comes (shorter but still helpful).
I have Matt's "Age" book, and this interview helped clarify a few things.
Very glad to hear that!
I am struggling to reconcile the idea that we don’t allow our system of theology to interpret the text and then using a hermeneutic to be able to understand the text.
Surely our theological system is born out of our hermeneutic and therefore we have to apply a theological framework to understand what the scripture is teaching.
I can’t see the difference. It’s simply you have the correct hermeneutic or you don’t.
Which is problematic to begin with. There are theological doctrines that exist that an average person reading the book with the naked eye, guided by the Holy Spirit would never see or agree to these doctrines. Yet the further mulling over it solidifies these, pumping them through seminaries and then bringing forth to the pulpits. It doesn’t bode well for the reality of a relationship with the creator and the created which is the crux of Word from an old or New Testament perspective. Outside of the Holy Spirit (that cannot be contained in a box), it is impossible to interpret the Word as intended. Some of what is written in the scripture, I thoroughly believe was not meant to be unraveled until greater spiritual understanding abounded. Furthermore though, I am weary of Westerners interpreting an Eastern book when they can’t even agree or admit to the Messiah’s phenotype. Nonetheless, the scripture should interpret itself and where that isn’t obvious or easily connected; should lay on the One who leads us into all truth- the Holy Spirit.
Outstanding!
As a presuppositionalist, I see the same problem, Daniel. In other words, there is no neutrality as we come to the text. We all come with our lenses firmly in place and it is nigh unto impossible to hold a neutral stance despite what many may say.
I thought the age to come was the messianic Kingdom?
Thank you. It explains a lot. I have not read your book yet. Is there a verse/passage that a-/post-mills use to explain why Jesus will be ruling with a rod of iron if we go into the eternal state where there will be no sin?
That's a good question, Karole. I'm not sure how amil would explain that. Postmill would explain it as a current situation where Jesus is currently ruling with a rod of iron, but they use the "already/not-yet" classification to explain that Jesus hasn't really reached the point where He is ruling with a rod of iron yet. They also think we are already on the new heavens and new earth, but same explanation--it is the already/not-yet which basically means "already, but not really."
@@thebiblesojournerI first came across the concept of "the already/not yet" many years ago in Ladd's books, historic premill. I do hear the expression used much more now. Are you saying that it is being used by postmill teachers?
@@dbsrwilson Good question. Almost everyone now uses the concept of already/not yet. And I think it is a good concept to communicate there are already aspects of Christ's new creation work that are in play and ongoing. However, there are still aspects of that are not yet completed or even initiated in some aspects. This is not limited to amil, postmill, or premill (all use this language). My comment above is specifically in reference to the component of Christ's rule "with a rod of iron." Postmills HAVE to (as part of their system) say it is an already/not yet issue. Amill and premill could both say it is completely not yet (or they could also both say already/not yet depending on what they think). I personally think we don't see anything of this yet, but will see it in the future. Hope that helps!
THE LORD WILL RULE WITH A ROD OF IRON IN THE MILLENIUM.
HE HAS NO NEED TO IN THE ETERNAL STATE.
Seems accurate to me.
Christ ruling and reigning on earth is all through the old testament. And there is rebellion that is dealt with as his kingdom spreads
Seems pretty straightforward if you let the Old Testament have some input in the discussion!
I think you are both too congenial. A child ( or plowboy) hearing amillennial or post-- millennial rendering ( dismissal) of these passages, just says " these people are rejecting Gods clear teaching on His future fulfillment of his word. It feels irreverent and aloof.
Well, it is certainly good to be passionate about these things! And I’m sure some amills and postmills would label Matt and I crazies bordering on heretical! But I think it important to apply Paul’s instructions at the end of 2 Tim 2… we must correct in a spirit of gentleness. They still are our brothers and sisters.
PleaseI hear you, but I don't believe in biblical scriptures, if it makes you feel better, then OK I understand that, in a world that always being violently troubled, it's certainly, seems like a lifeline to cling too, if you have faith, I know myself this world is filled with lies and discerptions, everyone lies directly or indirectly their no trust in the world, sin brings with it guilt, oh how that's strangled the world.
Almighty God isn't in this physical Universe, no matter what the scriptures tell us, so if that so why?
Almighty God exists in the higher celestial realms, if he stepped into this lowly universe, Almighty God being a celestial Almighty God would be in conflict with the lower physical laws, I can't say for sure at this point, so I speculate it would be like a positive terminal contacting and a negative terminal, the celestial laws and the physical laws can't be disregarded, at this point it's unknown by me; Almighty God could easily rewrite the celestial and physical laws, to overcome this temporal mismatch of realms, it's important to understand Almighty God tests us, the greatest wisdom Is in Almighty God.
What might happen, you call Almighty God Yahweh, there's Elohim, Yahovah, Hasham, Hashem, Jehovah, then there's the Havas Yeshuah, Ishuwah, the name 'Jesus' is incorrect, it's a modern adopted substitution, 'Christmas', people at one point really believed Jesus was born then, well I know you can't believe that simply because its again not accurate or true, all religions are written not by the hand of Almighty God, but from corrupt people, just because its old doesn't mean it's true.
Teachers lie, Lawyers lie, Dr's Lie, Prophet's lie, children instinctively lie, who amongst us always tell the truth, in that itself we know the answer, parents lie, relationships tell lies, businesses and companies lie, loved one's lie to each other, do I make my valid point, so it's easy to understand why individuals hold tight to the many religions, but don't live them in every aspect, is that not a discerption; in itself, please think about it, from second to second mere men entertain the idea of lying to friends, loved one's children, why is that? Guilt is the whip the churches capture the people with, isn't it through actual guilt people are driven into the arms of the many religions, tell me it's not so then!
I never said I didn't know the false scriptures I've read the Torah and Talmud the New Testament, the book of Mormon, Karran, it troubles me to know these things are followed in faith alone, faith is very powerful collectively mountains can be moved by faith, known wisdom is separate from faith they don't walk hand in hand; enlightenment is so far removed from organised religions, there simply not compatible sadly, these things can't be denied by any religious authorities.
Wars motivated in the past by religions, how many lives killed in the name of Christianity, Muslims, Jews, and so on, why is that, surely the heart of mere men should be united in love and harmony in balance with this beautiful earth, sadly it's not, factories poison the atmosphere along with petrol and diesel vehicles, mostly everything that manufactured today, brings distress to the earth, plastic have poisoned our sea's sadly.
Ask yourself Tom does the churches offer more than just lip service!
I agree we are all the children of an Almighty God; we are all having a personal experience here on earth, as lowly mere human's, this is an admonishment, and a place of learning and being challenged, addressing the fragilities of being mere human.
I tell you the truth as I see it only, it's not written in any scriptures, if I'm mad then the madness is mine alone.
Warmest regards to all who read this, I know it's not for everybody.
"Almighty God is real, however Almighty God dwells in the higher celestial realms only" this Universe is physical, set aside to accommodate corruption, where it maybe admonished and steered to higher cognitive awareness leading ultimately to celestial enlightenment. consider,
Hey! I really appreciate you taking the time to give some deep thoughts on how you process things. My only response would be to ask a question-how do you know what’s true if you reject the God of the Bible? It strikes me that you suddenly can’t be sure about anything. We are probably living in the Matrix right? You have no way of knowing anything for sure… everything is now just an opinion and not linked to any foundational reality.
Weak, weak, weak. Your PreMil doesn’t hold water. Look to Jesus’ words for Eschatology. Mathew, Mark, Luke,and John.
You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. But, to say Waymeyer's argument is "weak" demonstrates quite a bit of ignorance on your part. Waymeyer's book provides over 300 pages of academic quality. I know you have not read his work, so I am sympathetic to the ignorance. But I would just challenge you to read it before you claim the arguments are weak.
You're weak