Are Magnepan Quasi-Ribbon Speakers worth owning? The Good, Bad, and Ugly of Magnepan.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Adrian, Vilip, and Angus discuss the good, bad, and ugly of Magnepan. Magnepan carries a line of quasi-ribbon loudspeakers such as the LRS, 0.7, 1.7, and more. The AudioExcellence crew goes over their experience with these speakers!
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Audio Excellence Inc. is a high end audio/video store in Markham, Ontario, Canada, a suburb of Toronto. We've been in business since 1991.
Check out our interviews with designers and audio luminaries like Daryl Wilson of Wilson Audio, Paul McGowan of PS Audio, Paolo Tezzon of Sonus faber, Wendell Diller of Magnepan, John Atkinson of Stereophile, Dan D'Agostino of D'Agostino Master Audio Systems, Nelson Pass of Pass Labs and others.
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As a Magnepan owner (MG 1.4) I do agree with Adrian. They do image, but in a different way than my KEF LS50 Metas. The soundstage on the other hand, my Maggies provide, is amazing, the best I have ever heard. Vilip goes "Yoda" regarding some cone speakers ... ha! ha! nice one! 🤣
I have the LRS model, after two months of daily use, I got me a GR-Research x-over kit and braided speaker cable. Now my friends do a chef’s kiss when they listen to them.
With subwoofers?
@@FilipinaVegana yeah an svs sub for the party and off when I do critical listening as the bass lags behind.
I picked up my LRS's from AE in July 2020 ("dirty" grey with cherry edges). I love the sound, yet all the opinions in the video are valid. I build my own stand from solid cherry wood that raises the speakers up by 8 inches and tilts them to be vertical. This certainly improves the sound quality in my room. From my seating position, my ears are now centred vertically on the speakers. I also happen to have a good amplifier giving me 300 watts per channel at 4 ohms with lots of current. I am a very happy listener.
Good for you!
I own a pair of Magnepan LRS powered by an Apt Amp1 by Tomlinson Holman. The speakers are AMAZING. Great job Magnepan!
Great insight! Thanks! I used to wonder about all the hype of maggies, then I brought the 3.6r and understood really quick after listening to them the first time! I don't know man, I'm no audio expert, but I know what I like, the impression left within me when I first heard them has never to this day been duplicated! So yes I'm a huge fan!
Thank You very much. Pleasant to hear you converse. I'd say the most Maggie info in one sitting I've come across. Honest, real life experience accumulated over time.
Adrian of AE sold me on the 1.6QR in 2003. I still have them some 19 years later & love them. Thank you Adrian! They are powered by an Audio Research SP16L tube preamp & a VTL ST-150 tube power amp and accompanied by a Martin Logan Grotto i subwoofer. My 1.6QR's are off-white and as such are not too imposing in the room. I had no trouble integrating the subwoofer, the ML being a fast, made for music sub, keeps up with the 1.6's fast panel without any problem. I only hear the sub bass separately if I put my ear to it! The addition of the sub certainly made the 1.6's more dynamic. The Maggies are placed in the open (away from the back wall) for critical listening. I love their open, airy, live music sound & the way they energize the room. You cannot tell the sound is coming from the panel even though the panel is staring down at you. The soundstage is huge & imaging is good - perhaps not quite pin point imaging as a dynamic speaker but then you don't get the big sound effect of the panels either. I prefer the sound not be directed at me the way box speakers do. They play plenty loud - the volume never exceeding 1/4 of the way. Even box speakers have their limits as to how loud they play without compressing the sound. Of course ultra expensive speakers such as Wilson's take this to a whole other level.
As far as value for money, we have to give Magnepan credit for keeping these speakers affordable. Dollar for dollar the 1.7's cost today is almost the same what I paid for the1.6's almost 20 years ago. Over the years I have tried box speakers in my system to see if I was missing anything but I always go back to the Magnepan panels.
Hi David! Glad you are enjoying your system!
Me too, I recently got back to my MG 1.4s. I do have an analogue system with tube preamplification and a Stellar S300 power amp. The Maggies are amazing for my taste. Apart from imaging not pin point they blow away any box speaker I have heard, regardless of price. I sewed new socks for them in french royal blue. They look beautiful and the WAF is quite high. From a certain distance off the back wall they really come to life. Love them. Btw. great discussion.
Really interesting and informative video, thanks. The first rime I heard Maggies was in 1988. MG III's driven by Levinson 20.5 mono blocks. I think the speakers were about $1200 and amps $10K. It was an awesome combo and played loud!
Tympani T1-Ds are the only speakers i have ever owned that regularly induced goosebumps and brought tears to my eyes. I had the pair I three different homes. In two they were the best speakers I have ever had. In the third I could never get them to reproduce the same magic.....
I had them for 3 years ,I sold them because size was just to much for my new interior.
So now I have a lrs ...I have to say the lrs tweeters are a step up from the Tympani. The actual size of the soundfield.
Not much out there that matches a Tympani .
You are on point about everything regarding the Magnepan LRS. 👏🏼👌🏼👍🏼
Thanks for going that into depth. Ive been very curios about these for sometime.
On the topic of pairing subwoofers with Magnaplaners, after 20 years with my 2.5's I decided to try a REL sub as an experiment. Adding a T9i took some time to integrate with my speakers but with substantial tweeking I was able to get the sub to match up beautifully with the panels. The speed of the REL pairs nicely with the 2.5's and adds more dimension and space to the system especially in the mid-bass and of course much more in the lower registers. With this setup I cannot tell there is a sub in the system.
Over the years, I have heard that rel subs are one of the few and best at pairing with Maggie's. I'm assuming your using the high pass to match the amps bass with the subs bass?
@@brandonburr4900 Yes, I am using the high level input as recommended by REL and the deal where I purchased the speakers and subwoofer.
Being a Maggie fan for over 20 years (LRS,1.6, 1.7, 1.7i), this is the most comprehensive discussion I've ever heard about Maggies. Very honest guys but with big intellect. Listen up, future Maggie owners!
I totally agree with Adrian when he says he dislikes the lack of soundstage height on a lot of point-source speakers. When many years ago I listened to the vaunted Vandersteen 5, with its soundstage barely taller than the speaker itself, I was very disappointed and could never forget it. I remember loving the original Eggleston Andra, a relatively short and home-friendly speaker, because it could throw a soundstage as high as the ceiling if the recording allowed it. This is also the case of the DeVore Orangutan O/96, a speaker that is less than a meter tall but whose soundstage has good height. The smaller Wilsons do that too, also the small Neat speakers (Iota, Xplorer), and most recently the FinkTeam KIM. I'm sure there are others.
I was one of the lucky ones that got LRS's from you (black/cherry). I'm enjoying them, although there is a long break in period. Not only for your speaker, but for you as well. The way these produce sound, especially bass is totally different than any cone speaker I've had and that does take a while to get used to. I have mine matched with a REL T5i sub and it's almost fast enough to keep up. Most times it will blend well but certain tracks will show the weakness . I'm curious to try a second or a new T5X ? Anyone tried one with the LRS ? Great video guys. Thanks. I enjoyed it.
Their smaller wall-mount models on stands for 2.1 are really terrific. They also don't require as much amplification (though still 4 ohm is best), yet yield the same Maggie experience. Good for smaller rooms, imo.
I've owned several speakers in my audio life. The one that I miss the most is the Acoustat 1+1 Medallion mod. It did have it's limitations, the reason for me selling them many years ago to get Von Schweikert VR4's, but I do miss their "presentation" of sound.
A friend had at the time Maggie MG2B's. They were nice, but not Acoustats. Sad that the company no longer exists.
I went and heard the large Acoustats once. They were truly amazing. I don't think speakers that utilize a woofer for the low end, like the Martin Logans can come close to matching them. But you need a VERY large panel to any any bass out of them at all. I expect doubling them up, side by side, killing the highs in one pair, would have made them.
And nothing is an electrostatic speaker except an eletrostatic speaker. The best sound I've ever heard was my Signet TK33 headphones, which were electrets (same thing but the stators are not externally powered). They sounded basically like you 'were there', and you could listen to them basically all day long, even at high levels, and still they were totally non fatiguing.
The 2Bs are a LONG way from the Maggies of today. Now they have ribbon conductors, rather than wires, and a true ribbon line source for the tweeter. The panels are also larger, what was the tweeter before and plays midrange now is about twice the area. The tweeters were really puny in the high end before, not so these, still pretty much full up at 40 khz, which doesn't matter so much, but the older tweeters were basically gone at 14 khz, which very much does. If you haven't heard any of the modern mid to high end Maggies, go take a listen. They are light years beyond the 2Bs, which I've also owned, and the SMGs, and originally, an MG1 system. I don't mean a little difference in sound, but a MAJOR difference in sound. It is not something you have to have any kind of 'golden ears' to hear the difference.
@@MrJdsenior I certainly would hope that the improvement in sound over the MG 2B's would be major. I was comparing from that era and comparing it to what I considered the speaker system that I missed the most. The 2B's at the time were driven by all Bryston system. It was replaced by the Acoustat's, which he later went with the Martin Logan CLS of that day and Audio Research gear.
I stayed with the Acoustat's and all Counterpoint gear. I liked the sound with the VPI HW19, Koestsu Black Goldline cart.
I am retired now, moved from NYC to Poland, and had to downsize. So while I know there is better gear than I have now, I am content with the sound and enjoy what I am listening to. But still miss the Acoustat's.
As a former owner of a pair of Maggie 1.7i, I agree with all that was discussed except for one thing: subwoofers. A lot of Maggie owners are in denial about or just don’t know what they are missing when it comes to bass. Magnepans do not provide adequate sub bass. They do not have any percussion to their bass and no bass slam. I added a pair of REL T/9i subs to my pair of 1.7i. It wasn’t hard to integrate them contrary to what Vilip said, and they made a HUGE positive difference in my system. It was massive. IMO Maggies should *always* be paired with subs. The other thing is that Maggies should be considered a foundation upon which to make substantial improvements. The subs are one essential improvement. The other is replacing the jumper and fuse with for instance the Mike Powell silver upgrade which replaces the stock lousy fuse and the stock steel plate jumper with a silver tube (not fuse) and silver jumper. In my system this upgrade increased definition and the highs. Having good aftermarket bases also helps. It’s a platform for improvements and tweaks.
REL and Sonus faber subs which are connected to the amplifier output are two of the few subs that can integrate ok with Maggies. IMHO, subs are optional. And tight seamless integration will always be a challenge. With Maggies, I always hear the crossover to the sub.
Hi Vilip and Adrian, previously posted my comments earlier on one of your other videos in error. Love your videos. Seen so many interesting comments on this topic. I have been enjoying my Maggies 1.4s since the late 80s and driven by Classe 30 pre and 70 power amps. Power amp has high current capability. Great match, really enjoyable sound. No subs required as the bass can go down quite low. Plays all music genres quite comfortably via vinyl, cds and digital .
Hi Melvin!
I owned them for a few months. They were amazing for some things and the imaging is no joke. Ultimately I sold them because they had terrible dynamics and the sound would change so much with even the slightest turn of the head. I was listening more to the speaker than the music. Listening to my favorite tracks they just sucked all the joy out of them.
I have a pair, and they're magnificent.
Totally agree with the guy that explains the imaging with height and space instead of pin point. I think I prefer that as well. Maggies are starting to win for me.
Hey guys thanks for reviewing
Magnepans. I am running an
Audiolab 6000a with a Node 2I
with the Magnepan SMG a.
I have plenty of base I stopped using my Sub. So you do not
need alot of power just the right
combination / synergy and
placement . I have mine 4 ft from wall 6 feet apart and sit
6 feet away.
How do you measure the distance between them?
My comment on this review is that it is almost entirely a review on Magnepan LRS or .7s. I have to point out that you are not discussing the best of the Magnepan models. Also the larger Magnepans have good base. My 20.1s are rated down to 25 Hz. I do have two McIntosh MC402s in mono mode driving them, but they have plenty of bass down to pretty low frequencies. I would also say the larger maggies may have better imaging with the true ribbon tweeters. So I would like to hear this review re-done but based on the 3.7i and the 20.7. Even the 30.7s. You are selling electronics that are plenty expensive and you should be willing to have the big maggies reviewed with those electronics. By the way with the maggies binding posts if you use a ball driver they are easy to loosen and tighten.
With Maggies, the specification does not tell the entire story. Your 20.1 may be rated to 25 Hz and yet the panel will still only move so much and are still SPL limited. For real bass, the visceral and slam cannot be missing.
@@vilipmak3973 I don't know what the SPL limit is because I have never found it, and played louder than I am comfortable with. As for bass slam, what you said is true, but the bass extension is there, and the bass is good.
A line source tweeter can deliver superb pinpoint imaging. Haven't you guys ever heard a well set up pair of Quad ESL 57s?
That's not a line source tweeter. It has a large central tweeter panel that occupies the entire middle of the speaker. The 63 in fact introduces a delay circuit spiraling into the center of the speaker to mimic a point source. The Quad 63 as a result images.
@@vilipmak3973 Agreed, I've used them for over 30 years. What I'm saying is that it's not even remotely close to a point source. yet it still provides state of the art imaging. A true line source like a Magneplanar's long ribbon can also deliver excellent imaging. Imaging is determined primarily by the amplitude and phase relationship between the left and right speakers. Comb filtering caused the difference in arrival time between the center of the ribbon, and the extreme top and bottom of the driver, causes a long line source to behave increasingly like a point source at higher frequencies.
I experience the same imaging focus and precision from Magnepan 1.6 as I have had with Martin Logan Theos and even Totem Rainmakers previously - all of which have been enjoyed in the same dedicated listening environment.
As a litmus test, mono content will appear as a very thin strip. The difference? When set up very well, the Magnepans present life size scale for me. Instruments which do appear as "little dots" are perceived as either small and close or large and far. Any speaker position adjustments which move them away from "well set up" seem to immediately break the illusion and smear everything into a large and hazy version as noted in this video. This seems to be true of panel speakers in general and is frustratingly obvious when listening midfield or nearfield.
A very tall line source is also capable of presenting well defined "pinpoint" imaging despite being the polar opposite of a point source.
Actually Mono is not a good litmus test for imaging in the stereo sense. Any time differential that arises from being off-centered is not encoded in mono tracks. However, mono can and does place the performer or the performance in the middle of your room even if you have only one speaker. A stereo recording should primarily encode the "space" where the recording took place like certain classical recordings where you can hear the underground train passing by beneath the concert hall. That you get "imaging" within the "space" is really an added extra!
@@vilipmak3973 Good point. To be more clear it just seems that when switching a DAC's rendering or preamp to present a recording as mono, the width of that center image never seems wide or tall with Magnepan. Until the speakers are very well positioned the image as mono tends to be massively smeared with them.
Thanks for a great commentary. I really appreciate your dialog in these videos.
Yes I have found position to be critical. A few inches, twist a few degrees, .... can move or destroy system frequency response and imaging. But once the spots are found! e.g. I find if the sound field seems too close to the ground, one panel is not toed in the same as the other and a couple of degrees of twist will raise or lower the image. Because they block doors when in the right spots, I have to move mine out to play them. Since the wife won't let me put marks on the new carpeting.... it takes a few songs to get them set up when I am going to listen. But I am learning what to do when it sounds like this or that.
@@glenncurry3041 Thanks for sharing! Listening to panels as close as I do has been both amazing and a major source of frustration. Do you find that even as things settle, such as speakers sinking into the carpet in their new locations, the vertical positioning or center image will slowly shift?
@@AdrianJFabre Mine literally do not stay in their listening positions for more than 3-4 hours. Then get moved back so we can get into the bedroom or garage! And they get moved a good bit for at least one to two record sides. Not enough time for much settling.
I had even found different positions for different records at times. Moving closer of further from the wall affect low end and some records are tight and some loser. So I can tighten or loosen the low end by moving them forward and back. e.g. YES Concert Rock likes the extra boom when further out. While some nice jazz likes the tightness of being closer. But that does get way too OCD!
I have had a pair of 1.7is for a number of years. Currently driving them with a PSAudio S300, certainly a cost-effective option. I mainly listen to acoustic music, classical, guitar, etc., so transparency and the natural sound of the instruments is more important to me than a thumping base. In my experience, the limiting factor determining the quality of the sound coming from the system is the quality of the source and source material. Upgrading to a high quality DAC made a huge difference. Also the quality of the recording. Pure DSD recordings (SACDs) have a three dimensional quality that most non-DSD recordings lack.
just to note here: i am always there until the end. nice would be a shorter intro and the gained time as content, because i enjoy every second, thanks
Thanks Sammy!
Hello, I know this is an older review but I just went through auditioning LRS+'s and couldn't get them to sound right to save my life. I was using an older, Emotiva A/B 200wpc and a newer Nilai Hypex. They sounded smooth but were missing micro details (triangles, bells) that I know are in my reference tracks that are clearly audible on apogee ribbons (which I unfortunately sold several years ago) and my Custom Salk /ESS speaker (full size 12lb. Heils). Even putting my ear up to the panel I still could hear the mssing details. When I ran a Dirac there wasn't any thing obvious other than the top roll off. At any rate any recommendations for Speakers under 6K that have the resolution of the Apgee's? Am I missing something? Thanks!
MAGNEPAN is the top selling hifi speaker brand of all time. I have the .7s with dual SVS SB-16 Ultra subwoofers.
I have been a Maggie user for over 30 years now. I now live in a small condo and had to settle for MGMC2s. I had a pair of MGMC1s prior to the MGMC2s and they were surprisingly good. REL sub-woofers match well with the MGMC1 and MGMC2. I currently use a T9i with my MGMC2s.
I have a friend that has been trying to sell me his 3.7is for over 2 years now. I wish I had space for them.
Good video. Once you experience Maggie's you likely will be sold. If you appreciate the sound field they can throw. Take care North of the border.
I keep hearing that the LRS (and Magnepans in general) are difficult to pair with a sub. I had some Tympani 1Ds back in the 90s so I'm pretty familiar with the Magnepan sound. After being without them for about 25 years, I recently bought a pair of LRS and they pair fantastically with the 2X8" Emotiva SE8 subs I already had. The way I have them set up, they add just a touch of low end, sort of a scaffolding for what's coming from the mains, but I don't perceive the presence of the subs... I obviously know they are there but I don't "notice" them, in other words, they pair just fine in my room and to my ear. Guys, thanks for this review! I love how you articulate the differences between sound stage and imaging and I completely agree with it in terms of what I hear coming from mine. In fact, I watch so many reviews of current box speakers and what they do, I recently hooked up my Rega ELAs and have been listening to them to sort of compare box vs. panel. Next, I'm going to hook up the DCM QEDs I was listening to right before I got the LRS and I'm again looking forward to comparing and contrasting panel > box. And, I'm even thinking of getting something newer, maybe LS50 or Elac or ?? for further comparison. Thanks again for all your reviews!
Thanks Dan
All speakers have their limitations, things they do well and not so well. I've owned a pair of ADS 1230s for over 39 years because they seem to reproduce all kinds of music well. From Rock to Bach to Coltrane, these guys can do it all. I've owned Ohms and Quad 57s and also a pair of ADS 810s which I sold for the Ohms. BIG MISTAKE. After selling the Ohms only weeks after purchasing them, I bought the 1230s in '83 and never looked back. More accurately, I looked but didn't change. Since '83, I've heard the Quad 2905, plus products from Bowers and Wilkins, Monitor Audio, Magnepan, Wilson Audio, Klipsch, Polk and Focal. All good stuff but none of these speakers wowed me enough to part with my 1230s. There's a lot to be said for finally being content with what you've got, whatever the vintage.
As a former owner, one of the (3.7’s) issues for me was fussy positioning. I also found them lacking in dynamics for home theater applications (but part of that could have been due to an underpowered amp). They were excellent for pop music however.
Wonderful discussion but I certainly achieved a great match with my JL Audio Fathom 112v2 subwoofer. Seamless sound. The sub adds just that extra bit of punch and depth when called upon but you can’t even tell it’s there.
The JL can do it. That's for sure.
i am waiting for my open baffle subwoofer from rythmik tp match my LRSés with replaced crossovers from GR research. a major upgrade for the lrs.
Is an Adcom GFA 555 mark one good enough for them?
I personally have scary, beautiful imaging and soundstage?
Will Maggie 1.7i's sound good in a very large room: 26 x 22 x 15ft high? I can place them on the long wall, about 3-4 ft into the room, 8-10 ft apart. Nice 9-10 ft equilateral triangle on a rug surrounded by air on both sides and above. Can anybody answer this question? (Like Adrian, I want floor to ceiling soundstage height.) Thanks.
Anyone have thoughts on the triangle speakers, the cello etc? I head their bookshelf model and I was intrigued.
Is it best to mount acoustical treatment panels on the walls behind these speakers?
If so, what type of treatments would be a good starting point to help the speakers sound their best?
Thanks
"You owe to yourself to have a pair of Magnepans in your life at some point..."
Funny, I say the same thing about the Porsche 911 for car guys.
Anyway, I agree on the Maggies. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with my modified 1.6s, but I can't say I'll go back. Ultimately, pinpoint imaging and dynamics were too important for me.
Am I missing something? First off the title is Quasi-Ribbon speakers but I'm 5 minutes in and you're only talking about ribbon speakers (LRS)?
Second, you have a guy saying he doesn't like them, but he owns a pair, but they're still in the box? So he says they aren't good speakers but doesn't listen to them?
I think the Embraer Legacy 500 isn't a good business jet, even though I've never been on one.
Of COURSE you can get a LR imaging or sound stage, or whatever you want to call it, with a line source driver. And there IS NOT vertical imaging in a set of stereo speakers, whether anyone thinks there is, or not. Not unless you mic vertically and have the drivers in a vertical orientation with multiple channels, vertically. Simple test. Take two microphones and play a relatively point source instrument, like say a trumpet. Move it across the sound stage laterally, and see if the listener can accurately point to the direction the horn is coming from. They will be able to do an OK job, either with planer speakers or with any other type, horns, direct radiators, whatever. Now, with that same source move around in the vertical plane, including overhead and behind and see how accurately they can point in the direction of the source, they will suck at getting it right. Now do it with a good binaural recording made at the same time, wearing headphones to listen, obviously. This time the listener will get MUCH closer to pointing in the direction of the source, in all directions.
Audiophiles always want to blab on about ultra speaker cables and the like giving them more spatial definition. BULL, run the test and see if you do better with your new "super cables". Good luck with that. You won't do better.
And the panels on a Maggie will get louder right up until the point that they flap against the stops, probably not linearly though, as the magnetic field tends to decrease on the non magnetic side of the panel, with increased excursion. In the lower bass end that is not particularly loud, though, I will admit. I run them crossed with a Velodyne F1500 servo sub, and yes, there are times you can hear some raggedy things going on in the crossover region. I expect if I moved to a digital crossover from the source, some of that would probably improve. Passive crossovers SUCK. I expect the true ribbon tweeters are about as linear as anything on the planet, though. The Maggie so called pseudo ribbons would be more linear with magnets on both sides, and you could back the spacing off considerably, to allow more. I think that calling them anything with ribbon in the name is pushing it, especially since about every aspect of the way they operate is different than a true ribbon. The stretched panels, the wires, the one sided magnets, basically, everything. Most ribbons aren't even flat, they are z folded. I guess the form factor was what qualified them to be 'pseudo ribbons'. I would have just called them planar magnetic drivers, or something similar, but then I didn't design them, so I didn't get to name them. And pseudo ribbon sounds cooler, I guess.
Regarding the horrord binding posts, you can upgrade the crossover with GR Research which incorporates their tube connectors, so does away with the originals.
Would they work well with the British NVA mono blocks or Hegel 590 Integrated amplifier. I have the 1.7I model.
I use a Hegel H190 with my 1.7i. The H590 would be spectacular with those speakers.
I use the Hegel 390 with the 1.7i's and its amazing . The difference from the 390 with 590 you can check on this channel also , they made a video about it.
@@DamonRellik The H590 would be more exquisite and the H390 a bit warmer.
@@vilipmak3973 i forgot , accoring to hegel the 390 has better digital inputs and as for the magnepans; the stock fuses are also a "bad" imo. If you upgrade to silver fuses is like lifting a haze from the sound or unplugging your ears.
How does the LRS compare to Martin Logan ESL? Do you carry the ESL in your store?
Just saw this. Enjoyed it enormously. How well do you think the LRS will match the Primaluna Evo 400 pre and Power? Or any other tube based amplifiers? Thanks.
It will they are very linear impedance wise, they are just low sensetivity.. which requires somewhat more power (clean power) as you up the volume knob more than you think.
Tubes I bet sound stellar
Would a Rogue Audio Sphinx v3 be enough power for the LRS's?
Ok. So I own a couple pair of Maggies. The LRS is one of them, so I'll focus on that. I didn't watch this for a long time because I don't like hearing Vilip's take on them. His comments about Magnepans having no imaging is infuriating. I've actually stopped watching your channel largely because of that. But here I am and I'll explain why Vilip is incorrect.
Do Magnepans have inferior imaging to cone speakers? Yes. But comments like "no imaging" are just obnoxious, and that's why I've tuned you out over the last year or so. Never, in any of your videos do you discuss the elephant in the room. The science of sound and what a line source is, and what it does. Magnepan discusses this on their site, and it's fairly obvious to anyone that has the speaker that the tweeter acts as something very akin to a line source. That means horizontally, you will have excellent imaging. Vertically, you won't have any to speak of... just a sense of height and space. So about half of your imaging is removed. But arguably, the half that matters less. You have good horizontal imaging across a wide sound field. This is very impressive. So you don't have pinpoint imaging. This is different than "no imaging" so please stop saying that.
Angus at least brought up the fact that this is kind of an advantage with vocals, as the vocals aren't pinpointed to Yoda height. Vocals on a maggie feel more planted and "there" than most box speakers due to the combination of amazing transparency, tone, strong horizontal (center) imaging, and the smeared height feels full-sized. This is an advantage. So thank you Angus for mentioning this.
Sorry to unload on Vilip. I just find his take on them frustrating. I consider the lack of dynamics a relatively big minus for Maggies, but I also own a pair of 3.5r, and it should be clearly mentioned that as they get bigger, their excursion and the overall amount of air they move gets bigger. The larger maggies have no issues with dynamics unless you're just a horn person.
I like what the Little Maggies do. However, what they don't do is large scale , ass kicking , chest slamming dynamics! Don't like horns? Listen to the opening sequence of Gladiator on CD on a pair of Avantgarde Trios! then tell me what you think of the Maggies!!! It's Herculean sounding on the world class horn system!
When you say that these are not fast enough, to have subwoofers to accompany them, do you mean that at the bare minimum you would always need to get Rel subs with high level connection?
Yes - Sort of… Mostly.
I have been experimenting with PA woofers
Isobaric
And the good news is that if you are patient enough you ( like me) can get the speakers from a church that is upgrading their system and then you simply need a piece of plywood to mount each pair solo Baric . Then try a pair next to each Magnepan at the exact same plane and see what I am saying.🎶✌️
Unfortunately there are no production Open Baffle sub woofers. I have paired 3 different Maggies (MMG, .7, 2.7) with a pair of GR Research dual 12" OB subs. They mate perfectly, seamlessly.
I appreciate your comment about the 3' musicians with a typical dynamic point source speaker. I recently went to a high end HiFi store specifically to hear imaging. They had one system which imaged like crazy. But as I was telling the salesperson they sounded like they were below me and I was looking down on them.
Are you guys going to the Florida Audio Expo next weekend? If so I'll see you there.
great video thx guys !! what amp /intergrated unit would u recommend for klipsch La Scalas ?
The highest quality low wattage tube amp you can afford.
What is your experience of soundstage and image of Focal Kanta with beryllium tweeters. Can you hear violin from one sideand horns from the other side?
The Kanta is a fine speaker. Soundstages well and has enough forward edge detail to sometimes become etchy and sharp despite somewhat exquisite pinpoint imaging. That said, the Kanta has always surprised me as I have always expected undue brightness but I have heard it with Naim amplification and it was very smooth
Someone here in the comments mentioned a tool 🔧to tighten & loosen the speaker cable binding post that works better than the cheap/flimsy tool that the manufacturer provides ( a ball something or other)
Does anyone know what it's called?
I imagine any hardware store will have them.
Thanks
Ball head Allen key. SAE spec (inch)
This is a good discussion on Magnepans but it seems so weird to have a dealer seeming dumping on them? I tried the LRS many years ago but didn't wasn't impressed as it sound thin and bright. Probably didn't have a good amp and needed more burn-in.
I love that they sell the product but still provide their honest perspectives on the downsides.
Why don't you guys design the perfect speaker and let us hear it? Can't wait!
Magnepan's are great, we have a 3.6R
i dropped by in the summer to preview a pair of 1.7s. Very musical speaker and for the price I was almost sold. Problem is when listening to a non-audiophile recordings such as Metallica or AC/DC (which I requested Lewis to play) they lost their acoustic dimensions. By comparison, they sounded lack lustre and dull. in all fairness, many speaker brands suffer from this condition; inclusive with very expensive amplifiers. Keeping on topic, I believe Maggies are best suited for individuals that profile specific genres of music at subtle volume levels. If they require high current amplification which far exceeds the price point of these speakers, I really question there role in audio, or at least the audio within my walls. My golden rule I told a a vendor at Toronto Audio Fest: Your system only sounds as good as the worst recording played!
Excellent conversation. I had a pair of LRS paired with a Vincent SP-331 and it was a nice combo. I think I would have kept them really long term but someone offered me more than list for them due to the wait time....So, off they went.
Got a set from you lads just over a year ago and found an interesting arrangement accidentally. Try this if you can.
Have a 20 by 20 room with tv in one corner and lazyboy in opposite corner. With speakers mid point in room facing chair about 8 feet apart had a 3d sound that is much like headphones. Pinpoint accuracy actually through your head. Something to do with the reflection off walls and criss-crossing at listening position. It's damn freaky. Only way I listen to them. Try it if you have a square room!
Bad point, do not get above 90dbs at peak, so dynamically not up to snuff using naim supernait 2. Big bass track's heat up the supernait too much too.
If you can 45° them in your room give it a try, just passing on my experience.
Cool! Thanks for sharing
I stoped caring what other people think a LONG time ago. I get what I want.
Man I got a pair of vintage Acoustats 6600 with a tnt power amp that KILLS Maggies and they image very good!!
I had Acoustat Model 4s, beautiful . . . until you moved your head one inch.
Hmm "they're so good that you can't match them with a subwoofer"
Strange view of point. I understand that probably the limited experience of different technical solutions.
If you are only listening to box speakers then yes that maybe is the case.
But if you have experienced of other "enclosures" then no. And probably there is the problem.. when that requires two home made OB and is not of the shelf complete assembly that we can listen to.
So a OB is also a dipole. It also lack a box and don't get box resonances/coloration. It has no back pressure as a sealed box has (spring suspension) so it will be faster. And so on..
But you need to build it by yourself and optimize it ideally with a DSP to your Maggies and your room dimensions then you have a full range speakers. Problem solved with a fun project.
Another tip is like the guys say if you stand up all highs are gone. It is actually worse than that.. when LRS is sitting on the floor your ear level is ~ ⅓ from the top of the whole driver length you get better SQ if you have your ear level at the middle of the driver length. (It is easy to determine by removing the chair and sit up on your knees that is approximately the hight of when you are sitting in a chair. Then lower your self by sitting down on your heals like those Judo guys. Then your ears are more in the middle of the driver length.
If/when you hear a improvement you realize quickly that you need to rise your Maggies to obtain that SQ and height while sitting in your chair.
There is risers on the market or do it yourself and as the guys say make sure that the end result will be a vertical position when the risers are mounted.
Good video, and thanks for your tips!👍
I really really appreciated your overview of Maggie’s. I’ve never owned a pair, and have only heard lrs’s in a terrible setting. I own 2 systems, but they are almost identical in their approach to music, b/c they are from the same manufacturer. I own Linn Klimax 350’s (2016), and Linn Akurate 530’s. Very neutral, good for audiophiles, fast, great imaging. But i have been toying with a 3rd system that does NOT sound like either of these two. Something a bit warmer. I’ve considered Maggie’s for vocals, in the same room as the 350’s. Perhaps driven by a Mac integrated. Alternatively, a tube system, with either elekta amators, or perhaps Devore 0/86. I’d love to hear you do some kind of overview of SF speakers, similar to how you approached Maggie’s.
When you go to a real concert, there is no "imaging"... no such thing as soundstage unless a player is far off to one side or the other.
Maybe not in an arena. But there sure is in a small venue like a jazz club.
Relaminating a set of old Maggies is nothing compared to reconeing conventional speakers. Pull the sock and spray some adhesive from Home Depot.
Match it up with Ripole subwoofer it will integrate.
I think the ultimate compromise on binding posts would be the electra cable tube connectors offered by Danny at GR Research. I think this improvement would jive well with the Magnepan high value, high current equation and make a lot of us enthusiasts very happy.
You guys make Magnepans sound like, if they were an average girl, they'd swipe left significantly more times than right on a certain app when looking for an amplifier to, uh, hook up to. Art imitating life. What's not to like? Apogee (loudspeakers, not digital hardware) user here, by the way. Great discussion!
Swiping? What's that?
Apogees were the most realistic speakers for piano that I ever encountered. Lucky you!
Sound like constructive and destructive phase from the dipoles tricking you into a perception of depth.
Perhaps, and likely so, but WHAT A DEPTH! lol
Maggies Not imaging? instruments can not be individually distinguished? perhaps you havent paired them with the proper equipment. I just happened to reach this video, and I cant trust someone with an attitude who says what is /isnt audiophile, and uses Mc Intosh and horn tweeters.
200hz high pass on the LRS. And GR Research open baffle subs from 200hz on down. Done.
And miss most of the magic of the LRS down to 50Hz.
34 four years.... isn't it good...?
Those fuses and integrated stands are not the greatest. Purchased both pairs of Maggie’s from Adrian. Was a experience owning them but won’t purchase them again.
"If you can't play with the BIG DOGS, stay on the porch" 20.7's, Coda 16.0
Nice!
Classify "Audiophile"...
"Point source sound' is an artificial localization of depth that doesn't reproduce the original depth or position. The artificial depth of point source speakers squeezes the performance into your room... whereas Maggies transport you to the venue. I don't involuntarily vomit when I listen to ordinary speakers, but I don't smile as much either.
Highly disagree.... If you (& everyone in your room ) don't swear that piano & vocalist are behind those panels,...your setup is way off & just needs more trials to dial in....My T-1d's with inside cross-fired tweeters just sound perfect with Scary realism without any subs & you're keeping a check on windows for shatter !! ....if your room lights Aren't noticeably dimming on musical bass hits, you Need more current juiced amplifier !!
18:08 Dude trying to say he likes the way Maggy panels look.....just stop, they are hideous. How is it possibly they have not figured out a way to make these speakers look decent.
The quality of the conectors is horrible, made with a cheap metal.
This dude gets lost in bull. Live concerts doesn't image to you in the audience. Bottom line is does a speaker give you great sonic performance and sound like a live concert. I thought that is what audiophiles were chasing.
Ugh!
Magnapans: Why buy "also ran" speakers that have astounding resolution but sucky dynamics. They are the direct opposite of horns speakers, that have no resolution but thump your chest with amazing waves. Both of these are total miscreants when it comes to phase coherency. Never understood their appeal, furthermore as dynamic cone speakers will ultimately be a compromise but at least won't be soo awfully disappointed.
Very inefficient, terrible footing, no bass, unstable design just an awkward speaker all around.
This guy is deaf....or making an overall statement about Magnepan speakers ( does not "image" ???!) that is absolutely not true to the higher end of the line ( 3.7 i ) ....and above....
The most realistic sound I ever personally produced was using Cornwall IV's playing Eric Clapton unplugged. That literally sounded like they performance was in my living room. The scale, dynamics, vocals couldn't have gotten better to my ear. As great as those speakers are, they also have significant flaws. The horn did make itself known at times with certain tracks in the mid. Also, the finish was absolutely horrible for speakers at this price range. They didn't sound stage as good as typical speaker either but what they did well, they did exceptionally well.
Nice summary of the pros and cons of Magnepans. I purchased LRS and 1.7's from Audio Excellence a year ago when stock was available for a short time. The soundstage is definitely a strong point. I attended a lot of live concerts pre-pandemic and the concert hall sound is very close to the Maggies. if you prefer an up close analytical sound like in a recording studio they wouldn't be a good choice. I have assorted active and passive LS50's that I can use for that.
For me at least, the Magnepan 1.7i with the Hegel H190 has become my favourite system of all the audio gear I've owned over the past 50 years.
Many thanks to Adrian and the Audio Excellence crew for your great service and these informative videos.😇
Thanks very much!
You guys pretty much nailed it, thumbs up from me - line source presentation (Magnepan) vs a dynamic driver point source presentation - - they both can do certain things much better than the other - - ya want ya chest caved in with hyper imagining, impress ya buddies, better stay with dynamic driver point source, ya want boxless, transparent, coherent, awesome sound staging with real world height and more than adequate 3D imagining, better off with the maggies. The differences? Well, welcome to the real world of audiophile gear - - - btw, the big head thing that Vilip has complained about in earlier talks is something I've never noticed, that is, compared to the size of the other images within the sound stage, I've listened for that after Villip brought it up. Although I can't speak to the LRS's, the center image or head size of vocalists running 3.7i's of course varies, as one would expect, with the music source - not always, but generally scaled to the rest of the presentation - if you guys should decide to do more on Magnepans, would be cool to hear your takes on some of the higher end models too. Thanks!
The big head thing is especially noticeable with panels like Martin Logans.
@@vilipmak3973 Thanks Vilip, so cool that you took a moment to respond - - course this could easily turn into a "beating a dead horse thing" - - generally, I'm on point with you to put that on the table first - so, I don't doubt you're hearing what you describe - - I have a background in playing music, still have my union card and such, and having said that, quite a bit of recording experience, both armature and studio - we both know engineers will work on the spotlighted vocal - without going into details of what I mean, could that be what you're hearing? And yes, certainly part of this messing around does indeed make for a "larger" than life center image, singers want that - - so - - speaking about maggies in particular (I have no personal experience with the M.Logans) - - If I listen to an old early stereo recording, you know, recorded in two channels, but making the third or middle channel by combining the two outside channels, yes, that center image can come across as more pronounced - it's basically 2 channels combined - but, I can listen carefully to a ride cymbal coming from just one of those outer channels, and if one listens very closely to the actual image size of that cymbal, I find that cymbal size (I'm a drummer) isn't much different than the actual image size in the center although of course it's usually up in db level - - so I can't help but wonder if what you're talking about isn't, in reality, the speaker giving you what's actually there - - anyway, don't get me wrong - I never intended or care about going off the deep end about this issue, except that it made enough of an impression on me that, as you can tell, I explored it further - my system is reference in the sense of the gear itself, who the hell knows what reference really is - I'd hate to see a real world frequency graph of my room, so ya get me, I'm into music first, but I'm well over the 100k mark mostly because I'm into vinyl - so, having mentioned that - decades with the MGIIIa's (crazy modified by the end) and now probably heading into 4 years or so with the 3.7i's which yeah, I've begun messing with them too. And yes, along the way I've had considerable experience with dynamic coned point source too, I doubt in my lifetime we'll get to where one can have the outstanding features of both (maybe the maggie condos?) - but I just can't get by the box thing - over long periods, I've got to have panels and so I'll give up that wonderful visceral thing that a nice set of Focals or Wilsons will give ya. Thanks man, love what you guys do on your channel - Later, Skip
Vilip needs to try vinyl so detail actually exists! When I demo my 1.7i to people, I promise them to have the artist standing in front of them! Exactly like Adrian says, performers are in a SPACE, not a point/ line 3ft off the ground. You can see the entire face. A piano spreads across the sound field as an object. Not a thin line. Objects exist in a 3d space. Not a 2d line.
But they take extreme placement adjustments. I find a twist of just a couple degrees can move the sound field up and down. Distance between them develops the over all system frequency response. At times I even find nulls that destroy the response curve. You have to think of them as drivers and the room is the cabinet.
After not having Maggies for decades when I first got my 1.7i my oldest son, also an audiophile, after 10 seconds of listening he said he now knows what is wrong with every other (cone) speaker he has ever heard.
Same with owning electrostatics. Every cone speaker sounds distorted by comparison.
Very interesting and informative review gentlemen. I enjoyed the discussion between yourselves immensly, Thank you all for making this availalble. Personally I have owned a pair of Magnepan MG12 QR,s in off white since 2003 and I just love them, I have listen to a range of Quad ESL63's , Martin Logans and a variety of very high quality box speakers but, for my ears, the Maggies have it. I do listen to a reasonably wide variety of music, as well as spoken word although not a great deal of orchestral and thrash rock 😉Of course; The Maganepans won't necessarily suite all music lovers tastes but, we are all different in our expectations and perceptions. I say; Long live the Maggies👍
Have owned both 2.6R and 3.6R Magnepans and had a great experience with both. Totally agree with Vilip regarding amplification. I originally powered them using Sonic Frontiers Power 3 SE monos but switched to Pass Labs X600.5 monos and there was a big leap forward in performance. The Magnepans love current....lots of it. 😎
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt I used to think that also. But what you have to realize is that most other speakers, because they are not as close to flat resistance across the spectrum, have impedance swings all over the place. The Maggie would sit at 4 ohms like a dummy load demanding current across the spectrum. While convention speakers might have some low spot, rated load impedance, the impedance is often as high as 30ohms at some frequencies! And because of "True Power", reduced actual power consumption due to phase shifts between E and I which Maggies don't have as much of, ... So the amp is not forced to drive a 4 ohm load across the spectrum. Just at a few short spots across the band.
The way I have my 1.7i maggies setup, driven by a mytek brooklyn bridge and parasound jc 5, they have very good layering and separation, if not pin point imaging. I setup using the sumiko method modified by Ron Burrell’s LOTS method. Once I get that close I use the wilson audio concept of voweling to do final placement. Maggies rock, especially if you gain stage according to Benchmark audio published methodology.
I have the 1.7i's and they're driving me crazy, terribly muffled in the upper mid bass region for some reason. I keep trying and failing to make them sound good and I'm not sure where I'm going wrong. I have decided it must be my room, but I've not heard of that placement method so I'll give that a go. Thanks.
Would you say, if a standard sub is difficult to integrate with the LRS, what about a Open Baffle servo sub would they fair better ? ( like the ones from GR Research )
When the 1.5R came out (yes, it had the true ribbon tweeter, not the "quasi-ribbon" tweeter currently used in the less expensive models) I bought a pair. Loved many things about the sound but finally had to admit to myself that my listening room was too small for them. These large panels have many strengths, but they have demands too.
When you set Maggie's up with real electronics and setup properly they image amazingly. Hagel electronics will never get you there. I have Rel subs integrated perfectly with .7's. It can be done if you know what you're doing.
Totally agree. I’ve got a pair of 1.7i and JL Audio Fathom 112 sub with a Rogue RP7 tube preamp and Moon 760A solid state power amp… absolute sonic nirvana! I would confidently say my system would hold up against other speakers costing 4x or more.
Vilip is correct about the LRS. My LRS have a great sound stage but poor imaging. My LS50’s on the other hand have great imaging but a so-so sound stage. My JBLs are somewhere in between.
I agree. I Love my LS-50s for what they do, but the lack of a reasonably sized soundstage seems to rob music of much of its context. So then I hook up my MMGs with raised & properly angled stands. Ultimately I think I favor staging over image specificity, or rather I miss staging more than I miss pinpont imaging. But I'm keeping both.
Great review. I bought the 1.6’s in 2004 from AE and later the 1.7’s. I like them because they don’t sound like a speaker in a box which I also own. For my ears it’s night and day difference. Regarding the downside of Magnepans needing/liking high powered amps, the opposite is true. One can spend more money on the amplification and then save money buying the Maggies rather than box speakers to get great sound. A lot of the cost goes to designing & building the box that doesn’t resonate which is why Maggies are less expensive. The speakers in a box that I like are out of my snack bracket. I use 45 watt tube amplifier and they sound fine to me. Always wondered if I should try a hi power solid state amp fed by my tube preamp. I don’t miss a subwoofer but that’s just me. For me imaging is good, but then I don’t listen to much orchestral music. Layering has good depth front to back. Adrian is right, voices & instruments are high in the soundstage and behind the speakers. Not the greatest speaker for low level listening. They sound best, i.e. project well when played louder. Low on the WAF but if you buy off white they tend to blend in with the curtains. Worst downside is if you have cats they are giant scratching posts for them. I made guards to wrap around to protect them. Not the best choice if you have young children with messy fingers touching the grill cloth. Cat guards work there too.
Excellent feedback Bruce thanks!
I have 1.7s having owned others in the past. What power amplification have you had success with? Thx.
@@stephengordon1752 I’ve only ever used them with a Primaluna Prologue 5 with KT88’s, about 45 WPC. KT120’s sound a bit bolder, bigger but maybe not as sweet. Of course tube amp power numbers are not the same as SS. A lot of reviews recommend a high power SS amp and particularly fed from tube preamps. I prefer the sound of a tube amp. It’s personal choice and the type of music one listens to. I was curious whether my amp power was too low for these current hungry speakers. But when the sales rep played the Maggies the sound was stunningly more open, great on vocals compared to speakers in a box in this price range. You already familiar with their sound. Used Maggies are rarely for sale, often by owners who are upgrading, and they don’t stay on the market for long. What amp are you using?
@@TuffyAndBetty A NAD 275BEE was purchased at the same time as the Maggies to get me up and going. It is surprisingly good. I'm a bit stuck because I really can't be sure that an investment in a different (more expensive) amp is necessarily going to yield a noticeable difference. I listen at low'ish levels - and so a tube power amp may well be more practical in my case than for most. Thx for replying.
I have the 1.7s and for the longest time paired them with a Denon X series receiver and was happy to a point. Upgraded the 2 channel amp for the Maggie’s to a Moon 340i from Simaudio based on a recommendation from my dealer. Never thought an amp could have such a profound impact on the quality of audio but it’s like I purchased a brand new set of speakers and am hearing them for the first time. The Moon 340i is stunning with these speakers. FWIW I asked about, but didn’t listen to, pairing the Maggie’s with a Hegal 120 or 3x .. was told the Moon would pair better. I haven’t tried the Hegal to compare but the Moon certainly does wonders for them. Best of all, wife loves the Maggie’s too and everyone always comments about how cool and different they look.