Thru Axles on a 90's Bike - Converting the Frame for Thru Axles
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- I recently converted my old 90's Gary Fisher mountain bike to thru axles. In this video, I show you what I did to adapt that steel frame to use thru-axle wheels. This is a more detailed video which uses some original footage from the Gravel Bike build. If you haven't seen that video, I've added a card at the beginning of this one. I hope you enjoy.
- กีฬา
Bob Ross of bikes
this and oldshovel
This is the dream! So many good old frames out there that could be updated using this technique, price and time spent notwithstanding!
This opens up so many possibilities for these older frames
Steel frames only unfortunately. But yeah
@@AK-oz4ew Nowadays, many 135 hubs have the same internal axle diameter (12 or 15 mm), because its cheaper for machinery. You just need to purchase the correct end cap and then find a short 12 or 15 mm thru axle bolt. You could essentially make this without welding, using just a large hole and a nut. Tightening it to 11 to 13 Nm would be perfect for lateral forces. I considered doing this with mine, as I have a 135 hub with a 15 mm axle and interchangeable caps. However, it's not really worth it since a thru axle doesn't offer significant benefits for horizontal and most vertical forces. It only makes a real difference in more extreme cases like MTB downhill.
@@AK-oz4ew Why wouldnt this work with alluminum frames? I know that he said that in the video, but I am curious
@@jurekgadzinowski2895 because aluminum cracks when bent.
you could just use 10x135 thru bolts they fit into those drop outs and are much better than the quick release skewers
Yup
Could you elaborate? How would you secure them? Would you still need a nut welded to the exterior of the dropout?
Doing the disc brakes right is the more important part. People have folded frames when the tubing collapses from the disc brake forces that they weren't designed to handle, which is not a fun time to say the least. You really need to know what you're doing to make that modification safely.
Impressive stuff. I think I'd just have opted for a wheelset with DT hubs and swapped the endcaps.
Holy crap, incredible job! The thought process and execution were perfect. Finally, I really really loved the paint scheme you came up with. So much better than repainting the whole frame, very cool.
Thank you very much!
one of the best to ever do it robert
Thank you.
Why to bend the frame if body of 142 hubs same as 135 hub, you can just buy thru axle 135x10 hub, or simply cut caps of 142 hub
To be fair you can just buy converter caps or inserts for like $20 and use the original Thru Alxes. But wheres the fun in that? LOL
@@chris1275cc You can't convert any hub just with caps and convert it , especially to 135x10 thru axle standard.
@@AlexKrasii
His reason for this conversion is because he wants to use modern 12 (or 15mm) TA wheels not 135x10.
And yes you absolutly can convert most TA hubs with just end caps to 135 QA, they are shorter face to face than the TA end caps and just slot in, done it many times.
@@chris1275cc Exactly, and he could just buy ready modern 135x10 thru axle (I am not talking about qr 135x10). You can't convert most of the hubs by changing caps. There are lot of brands beside hope, dt etc. Lot of mid level like Shimano, novatec, formula, quando etc are not convertible.
@@AlexKrasii Yes with most modern wheels you CAN I dont know why you are insiting you can't. DT-Swiss and Novetec sell all the caps for all thier wheels. As do HUNT, MICHE, Campag', Bitex, HOPE, PRIME, Roval, Fulcrum, MAVIC, ZIPP, Bontrager, CADEX, Elite, Alex, Funn, FSA, Selcof, ENVE, Koozer, Salsa, SPANK, Vision, WTB. Shimano are an exeption because they insist on using Cup and Cone. Formula seem to an expetion too but its one of the few hubs Im not familiar with so I dont know why.
Great video, very entertaining! I’m very envious of your workshop and your skills! Greetings from Switzerland!
Great job, but holy cow! It would’ve been waaaaaaaay easier to just use an angle grinder to cut off the rear triangle (seatstays and chainstays) and just rebuild the rear triangle. Way way faster too.
Even easier would be to build new wheels with existing QR hubs, no?
@@repo4That’s what I kept thinking, if it’s about wheel compatibility, surely it’s easier to relace a compatible hub?🤷♂️
@@repo4 You don't even need to go that far, most wheel manufactures do converter caps to run QR and there are plenty aftermarket caps/inserts for those that don't.
I had to stop watching. I felt a bit queasy.
Thanks for the detailed follow-up. Loved the original video, a really slick build
I’m doing this to an old Giant Mountain bike right now. Super helpful to see your great work for inspiration.
Thats incredibly awesome. You did an amazing job. I dont have all of this equipment to perform wjat you did. I would just build a modern wheel that has a quick release hub. The only thing I would have to worry about is the rear dropout spacing. There are plenty of 135mm and 142mm hubs that come as quick release.
nice work man! that's some clever machining and welding, big fan of this build!
The space inbetween the dropouts is 135mm for both QR and 142mm frames but for 142mm thru axle frames there is 3.5mm removed from the inside of each dropout to locate the wheel in the frame. So there is no need to stretch the frame but you do need to machine 3.5mm cutouts on each side to locate the wheel. The cutouts account for the 7mm extra length of the wheel hub. Anyway it's excellent work.
Sooo what im hearing is it’s possible to convert most frames to a through axle?
Anytime the subject of welding on a bike frame comes up online, theres always a comment that emphasizes the need for post-weld heat treat. What is your thought on it?
bloody hell and I never thought it was possible.... 😂😂😂😂😂
Great video, thanks for sharing!
First I was confused, I thought 135 mm QR and 142 mm TA were actually the same inner spacing, just that thru axle measurement was the outer spacing including the dropouts... So I looked it up again and it seams like I misunderstood it completely. Correct me if I'm wrong but there exists 2 spacings standards (non including Boost, obviously), both measuring the inner spacing of the dropouts: 135 mm, of which there exists QR and TA versions, and 142 mm, which only exists in TA version ; the latter having been developed so as to introduce a standard dropout shape that can hold the wheel hub in place which screwing the axle.
Anyway, and if my understanding is good, why did you bother widening the dropout spacing? Wouldn't it have been easier to just weld the 12 mm nut without frame modification and fit in a 12x135 bolt with a corresponding wheel hub?
About widening the dropouts, did you have any method for controlling that the seat stays bend an equal amount? There certainly is a slight difference in bending stiffness of each seat stay. The risk being that your wheel ends up sitting on a plane shifted from the center plane of the bike, hence inducing a lateral torque. Also the chainline would be randomly shifted. Or maybe you did take that into consideration but the shift uncertainty was minimal?
Thanks for your feedback and again, great work!
As a mechanical designer, I see the problems caused by welding, shrinkage and distortion on a daily basis.
I personally still ride a mtb with quick release AND disc brakes and have no problems with them.
I would get a wheelset with a quick release and avoid welding.
thru axles are generally for wide axles in carbon frames, so they stay rigid, old Alu frames do not need thru axles ;)
All of my factory-made thru-axle bikes are aluminum with carbon forks. I couldn't do this mod to an aluminum frame, though. I don't have the skillset or equipment to weld aluminum. But on steel, it was an easy one.
@@RobertAdairWorkshop sorry I thought You repaired alu, and steel - yes easier. I did repaired alu frame with carbon tape and epoxy 284. 2nd iteration with more tape and alu sheet
Since it's really just holding the nut in place for the axle, would jb weld be sufficient for the nut placement
Show more detail on how you installed the hangar👍👍
Cool project, but I'm not sure how necessary it is for the frame. My gravel bike has a QR in the rear, and a through axle in the front. I think it really helps for the stiffness in the fork, but with all the triangles in the rear, I'm not sure there would be a big difference.
Very cool idea, but wouldn't it be easier to buy quick release hubs and build a new wheel instead? I don't have the capability of doing any of what you did and I also doubt any of the bikemechanics in my area could do this. Building a new wheel set seems much easier and also cheaper.
This is a very cool modification, but throughout the video you just made what I would call sideways references that this was a steel frame with steel forks. In fact, this was the NUMBER ONE REQUIREMENT in order to do these modifications. I'm just afraid that there are many folks who won't realize that you can't do this to an aluminum or carbon fiber bike.
Any reason why you opted to install the thru axles from the right side of the frame/fork rather than the left side, as is the convention?
See 9:12
@@RobertAdairWorkshop That makes sense! I mean, without having that QR lever you can come in from either side.
Would this be possible with titanium though? There are a lot of those that are more valuable and durable then steel or aluminium, so the usecase is more logical there…
I have thru axles on my 1970s roadbike, (stock)
wow, disc brake caliper mounts in a spraycan! cheers. thanks for sharing.
Hi Robert, the reason a through axle is installed from the non drive side is that when we look at the rotation from that side the outer race of the bearing turns CCW as does the ball forcing the inner race to have a CW turning moment. Similar to the action on pedals. You may want to put a lock tab on your through axle so it doesn't undo its self.
Wow, this is a really awesome video! I do a lot of fabricating. I never would’ve thought of doing it. That way. That was a really good idea.
wow I really love the production quality here.
you dont need tempering after welding or how is that called in english ?
Very detailed explanation, thank you.
"152." 😂😂😂😂I laughed in sympathy
thru axles are just expensive solid axles
What about spring back?
Cool take on a restomod, for looks I like the allens on the drive side, but there's probably a reason such as they might tend to loosen on the disc side... Just a thought, are you using Italian threads... ?!>...
I'd make sure you do some alignment before and after welding, the dropouts will flare as you stretch the spacing and modern hubs won't like the lack of parralell surfaces. Tightening torque is a fraction of traditional wheelnuts. You could always mill a face rather than tweak them I suppose...
I'm going to bet you'd really like to add a torsion brace on that disc brake mount to the chainstay... ;)
I'm going to add this to my frame builds I should get on with list... I'm inspired, not quite in a Bob Ross way! Are you familiar with @paulbrodie
I say this because I remove screws by hand often just by wobbling them in circles against the thread as if I'm gong around the direction of the threading in direction of rotation. This is the exact oscilation going through your disc side axle at a guess, BSA!
Such a great idea! I bet you've already thought of this, next time if you mill your own inserts from scratch consider creating a land for the axles. This could mitigate the alignment issues you mentioned towards the end of this video 😊
I was thinking about this too. I'm not sure how I'd add the land. Maybe make the adapter fit around the dropout like a clamshell, and slightly over-spread the dropouts? It's a good idea to add them.
It's impressive.
I hope your next video will be how to slack head tube angle 70 degree to 66 one.
works component angle headset if that's important to you.
Why I love overengineered videos like this? Modifying a 40€ frame with 400-1400€ish equipment is satisfying.
It's fun, right! The whole project was really to see if I could and to capture what it would take so others could do it. I used the GF frame because it was a cheap one to screw up.
It looks like you welded disc brake mounts onto a rim brake frame and fork. I'm not sure this is safe. Forks and frames are beefed up (vs their rim brake counterparts) to withstand the forces of a disc brake. That's why disc brakes end up being about a 1kg weight penalty over rim brakes.
I did the engineering work to determine it was safe on the frame. Fork was already a disc fork. I'll bet you haven't seen that one. Take a look if you're interested: th-cam.com/video/e0UhOou45IU/w-d-xo.html
Well done!
why not just use 9mm converters and leave the frame alone
that's what I did to use 12mm tax on my 2004 9mm
This was more fun. And made an interesting video.
Very nice. Did you check the alignment of the dropouts after widening? Though it shouldnt matter after welding the nuts in place
Hi, knitterfest. I did check it, yeah. Included a note on it in the build video but didn't think to do it here.
A small tip for next time: remove all paint, even the paint behind the nut. The reason is any paint captured between nut and frame will outgas as you weld, thus contaminating/weakening your weld. You seem like someone who appreciates doing a job well.
Appreciate it.
Cool idea
Great problem solving, presentation.
Tom Byrne
Thank you, Tom.
By chance, would you make the nuts commercially available like on a website, I'm very interested cause I don't like the Modern gravel design, I prefer the older mtb's converted to dropbar gravels instead.
If you’re in the US, email me at the address on my about page and I’ll make a one-off pair and send them to you.
SUB ❤👌
If we used metal epoxy, could we attach the the modified nuts to the drop outs after boring them out without welding
I don't see a reason it wouldn't work but I really don't know for sure. It'd be interesting to try and see how it holds up.
May I ask you didn't cut a thread directly into the dropouts for the frame?
I didn't have the correct tap on hand when I started. The tap would be a good way to go if you could keep the threads concentric to the other-side dropout so the axle didn't bind when threading it in.
Super cool!
This is awesome and the paint job turned out great!
I did something similar to my girlfriend's 89 Rock Hopper. Only did the discs tho, didn't really consider converting to thru axles. I opted to buy rims and build an appropriate wheel set from qr hubs.
Robert Adair just became a bicycle legend. This man just did a huge feat and made it look easy. You need a bike shop man. you could refurbish a bunch of the same models of bikes but just switch up the paint job from time to time. same model so its step by step same process. This red and black with the gold accents looks super clean. Where can I find those RS wheel sets.
did i miss the dropout realigning?
It’s in the original build video at 3:44. th-cam.com/video/WDkYQHh_scU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ExkgX7nvOLiGTtPV&t=224
bro is a genius. I was thinking the same thing, but completely over complicated everything. Will take inspiration.
What is it about frame straightening as such. I could use some advice. Please show how that frame is perfect?
awesome thank you for this tech insight . you are 100% right when you say its getting hard to find qr wheels . now i dont have to stress about getting a " modern frame anylonger and just upgrade the wheel set i will be using this idea with the long john cargo bike frame i'm currently building . Steel is Real 🤩
. such a huge $$$$$$ saver , greetings from Cape Town South Africa
2:40 you could use a round file, it doesn't take much.
Good idea.
Dobra robota (good job)
Very good video, can you convert this bike into folding bike next 😂
Very interesting and a well done job. You say it can only be done with a steel frame, what would limite aluminum? I have a 2014 Cannondale which could use that upgrade.
Aluminum would be more difficult. The rear dropout spacing would need to be expanded to 142mm whch, on aluminum, would require heating and bending instead of cold-setting (to prevent cracking). The adapters would need to be made from aluminum, which isn't a big deal. But then they'd need to be welded in which could be difficult to do. Someone with more skillset than I have, could do it though. Not impossible.
@@RobertAdairWorkshopSo next to impossible for me having zero skills and tools. I didn't know aluminum would be much more difficult to work with. Thank you for your detailed answer.
Wow!....Must be something to be such a craftsman👍🏻
I do think there are adapters for Through Axle wheels to work with Quickrelease axles.
There are for a few frames but those frames were designed from the onset to use both. Take a look at Poseidon frames. They are slick.
@@RobertAdairWorkshop He's not talking about frame adapters there are inserts that slide into the hubs to convert them to QR and/or end cap adapters. I think you would still have to cold set the rear as (whith a few exeptions) most disc TA rear wheels are 142.
I have a slightly different idea. I would expand the frame and fork a bit less(so that outer faces measurement gives 142mm) and open up the dropouts with grinder or file to act like "lands" for hubs, and then weld the nuts outside.
That way you would have fixed an issue mentioned in 9.25.
Either way, great job
That actually sounds like a much better way than what I did.
@@RobertAdairWorkshop maybe it's an idea for Kona? 😁
@@gabrys187 Absolutely!
Great project and video. Subscribed.
how if i do the same and just weld the bolts without making the notch ? Is it gonna be safe
Should be in if your welds are good. Notch is only there for alignment so the axle is square when welded.
@@RobertAdairWorkshop thanks for your reply man 🙏🙏
Great job wish you’d do this to my bridge club
Could you not simply “fill” the dropouts with weld, then re drill to the desired size and tap threads?
Yeah, that would work too.
The principle worked for converting a normal frame to horizontal dropouts for a fixie. Used an angle grinder to cut new slots….. don’t know what engineering integrity it had, but seemed to work ok 👍🏼
Amazing. i might have to try this on an old bike sometime
This thing ended up looking amazing, good job
I was pondering how to this just two days ago!
Wow! Always a joy to see your diy vids! Good job there!
This is great!
Thank you
hyould you choose thru axle over the quick release ?
I talk about that at 8:50.
@@RobertAdairWorkshop yeepp....
Enjoyed this, thanks 🙏
Why am I having this strong feeling that I have watched this great-job video few weeks ago?😂
If you did, thanks, that’s awesome.
You got the Skills 👏
Terrific job and an inspired decision for the paintwork. When you opened out the QR slots on the mill how did you ensure the slots were cut in the right place for the wheels to a) line up with each other and b) sit perpendicular to the frame please?
I clamped the frame to the table using three t-slot camps to hold it stationary in X and Y axes. I used an angle finder, zeroed to the mill table, on the face of the dropout and adjusted the clamps until I had 0.00 degrees on both the X and Y axes. That ensured the dropouts were parallel to the table and 90.00 degrees to the drill bit. I found the middle of the existing 10mm dropout hole using the DRO on the mill and a bit of math and locked the table at that location. I then drilled the frame at a rate of 0.1mm per second while watching X and Y positions to ensure they stayed at 0 (did not move). The drill was 11.92mm. Because of wobble and the slotted dropout, the hole varied in diameter from 11.94mm to 11.98mm. I then used a 12mm ream in the mill with the frame position still at 0X and 0Y and reamed it out to 12mm. To check that the two holes were in line with each other, I used a 12mm ground rod and inserted it through the new axle holes and checked its position with the centerline of the frame. A string pulled straight down the center of the downtube aligned in middle of that rod. I checked that it was square to the string with a machinist square. Everything checked out.
Nicely done.
Do this to my frame 🤩
Amazing.
Muito bom, ótimo trabalho 👏 👏
nice work!
Very nice!
Beautiful
Can this be done on a titanium bike? I have a Titanium cross bike with quick release drop and hydraulic brakes (super rare) I have a wheelset but it will be hard finding new wheels for it if required.
I don’t have any experience with titanium. I know it can crack if stress risers exist at the weld site. Dropouts are probably thick though. I think you’d want to tig an adapter and use one made from titanium. Depending on the shape of the dropouts, though, you might get away with non-welded adapters.
@@RobertAdairWorkshop yeah… I’d need to find a welder who can do titanium, steel is common titanium not so much, maybe for said reason. (Think I’ll go with adapter if required. (Looking forward seeing how you solve hydraulic brake mounts, since the frame isn’t made to handle such forces…)
Wouldn’t it be easier to use the hubs you have and re lace with your preference of wheel rim?🤷♂️
There is no need to convert the frame just buy QR adapters for Thru Axle they are like $20 and get whatever wheels you want. HALO make good ones.
@@chris1275cc thnx! I knew they existed, didn’t know any brands. Much appreciated.
I have to say it. Yout videos are awesome. Keep it up man!
Thanks! Will do!
Very cool! Just subscribed.
Thanks for the sub!
❤❤❤
very cool dude
Hey, Thank you.
I will only support this if you promise to ever, never, ever, never bring this into a real bike shop. You know its crooked, you know the wheel doesn't fit right. Please don't ever subject any shop to having to pretend this is okay. They will do some basic repair and realize..."holy fuck.. what the fuck?... " while they try to google this frame even existing, and get frustrated. Don't ever tell someone to do this who will ever take their bike into a reputable shop. Promise?
Why the hell would I take it to a bike shop? I’m an engineer. I build everything I own. And that wheel is dead straight. You really read your own insecurity into the video, didn’t you!?
Front fork needs to be thru axle, I've used qr on hydraulic brake and qr wasn't strong enough to hold axle in place, it shift as I brake strong and threw out the front wheel position
I’ve owned several QR disc brake bikes and never had a problem with them. I still have four of them right now: Fuji Sportif, Fuji Cross, Felt Z75 and Marin Gestalt. Problem might be with your specific bike.
@@RobertAdairWorkshop dunno but I use rigid carbon fork. 2 bikes and all of them shifted down slightly under heavy braking, enough to make disc rubbed
Too much work.
Think of how much work you have to do at your job to buy a modern bicycle
Too much complaining 😊
@@thesohnly also if its a passion project, then it's not really work
Why bother?
Same reason I put disc tabs on my 2001 Schwinn wallmart bike: its fun
Steel is real and why add to the waste culture?
Because you can, duh😂❤😂
I’m not saying waste the bike and never use it. But surely the bike was fine the way it was. Loads of bikes don’t have a through axle…was it necessary to add it?
@@heywoodjablowme8120 no need to be rude
Your artisery I beheld
But right away I knew
I could never, never weld.
I thought perhaps a mind meld
Might help, but that to do
Wouldn't be fair to you:
I've no brains to pass through,
I'm sure to be expelled.
Just saying even from my very untalented, unskilled level, I can tell you are amazing. Thank you for achieving high expertise, doing great things with it, and sharing with everyone. I think this is highly useful and constructive. You have paved the way for those that have the skill to do what another commenter @epicprojectschris7050 rightly said, "opens up so many possibilities for these older frames." Thanks again. All the best.
Great video, you've got the same calm and considered approach to explaining your work as @paulbrodie
That’s a big-deal compliment. I have a lot of respect for Paul. Thank you.