@@Loafman-k5m Its not physical gold, but that which transmutes the self, which has an incalculable value. Physicality changes all the time, knowledge isn't going anywhere and retains its value. Why care about the leak when you are the well? Why worry about what you cannot change? Improve yourself and life will improve for you, let alone for everyone in your proximity, and its multiplicative. Stay the coarse, the wilderness is your mind, and your will the axe and your body, use it well and you might have a nice bit of firewood come winter time. Have a good day sir!
And I went about studying Engineering in college, if I had known that this is what philosophy was all about ... Amazing concepts! And this gentleman, such a marvelous orator!
I think its good that you studied engineering before you got into philosophy. You were able to better grasp the true form of the good having a background in real scientific/mathematical truth.
remember that education is a life-long pursuit. You being here now, listening to philosophy lectures, reading Plato and other greats for yourself, thinking and developing your mind, is as much a philosophy education as you could get in any university program. It is far better to have engineers who know philosophy than only philosophers who know philosophy.
Good choice actually. As an engineer you can support yourself using reason and honesty. As a philosopher you need to get hired by an university (which is only for the very few), get payed through think tank sophistry or by constantly grabbing attention through social media.
13:18 Mathematics 15:54 The Bridge to Fixed, Permanent, Reality, Natural Law. 20:30 Realms/Forms of Truth Forms of Beauty 22:28 Dialectic - Figure things out by talking together 23:40 The Myth of The Cave, The Shadows - (False) Reality, What we can sense The Sun - True Reality, What makes being possible 26:17 The Journey is Asymptotic
Wow! 5:52 Yes! "The real corruption comes from the people themselves in EVERY city; IGNORANCE is the source of all corruption and evil." Thank you again, Dr. Sugrue...I could've used this profound acknowledgement decades ago as part of my arsenal of "intellectual self defense" (a term I first heard from Noam Chomsky) against our broken society. My lack of understanding of the source of corruption and evil cost me so much energy and heartache over the years due to the confusion that this lack of understanding creates.
I generally agree but knowledge is not inherently a virtue. Knowledge can be used diabolically and for selfish means. And I don’t think we can say that Ignorance is a hindrance. Being ignorant of our death is a coping mechanism that humans developed to limit our stress levels. I would say both knowledge and ignorance can be a virtue and a vice depending on the situation.
45:22 Bravo! Yes! It IS up to us as individuals. We DO have power both during and after this life seemingly dominated by individual helplessness/powerlessness. Upon spiritual transformation (ie: awakening/becoming conscious of every moment in this life, as well as upon death) we have the opportunity of respons-ibility (Response-ability).
I’m rewatching these old videos and hoping the insights that the late Professor had on The Republic will be shared at some point. I am ever intrigued by Plato’s Republic and interested in the unique reading that Dr Sugrue claimed he would share with us. Many thanks for sharing these videos and keeping them available
In addition to the many superb quotes already cited here in the comments: "When I first read this, I didn't know books could do stuff like that." "When I found this out, it just made my weekend." Right on. To extrapolate all the crucial themes of this work and make them accessible without compromising their complexity and sophistication is a remarkable achievement. I appreciate your work, Dr. Sugrue.
I agree! Most philosophy videos I find on TH-cam are British English, if English, and while I typically prefer that accent as opposed to American (I’m American) some of those videos have such boring voices it’s so hard to pay attention. But this guy is just fantastic at communicating these ideas, I feel like anyone would like these videos not just us philosophy buffs
I love this. I hope you continue uploading this lecture series. I also have to thank Michael Sugrue for attracting me to stoicism after I saw his rockstar lecture on stoicism and Marcus Aurelius. Reading Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius has had a very real and beneficial impact on my life. I do have a question. I read the republic in high school, not for class I was just pretentious. It always struck me as very similar to brave new world, and in other ways 1984, in that he creates something he calls a perfect city but that would be in practice a hell. I also find that Socrates has conversations where he will use a chain of logic to come to conclusions that I in someway know is incorrect but can’t quite place my finger on where in the chain that I agreed with there is a mistake. Cheers!
There is a fun (fictional) dialogue between fat tony and Socrates in the book Antifraglie by Nasim Taleb which I think touches on the same thing as you are feeling. Socrates doesn’t allow for things to be a bit ambiguous but life often is.
@Owen Jones "he will use a chain of logic to come to conclusions that I in someway know is incorrect but can’t quite place my finger on where in the chain that I agreed with there is a mistake". I feel the same way when I started. It seems to me, sometimes Socrates would use analogies/comparisons with false equivalency to prove his point. For example, an apple is a fruit and it a red. An orange too, is a fruit. Therefore it is red. I highly suspect though, that I have mistaken or misunderstood. I have just finished reading The Republic for the first time. In order for me to have a useful understanding of it, I think I would need to read it a few more times. Supplement those readings with lectures like Prof. Sugrue's and perhaps have some discussions on it.
I thought the same with brave new world, especially the part where Plato's kind of "caste system" is justified by saying that gold people are derived from gold, while silver people are derived from silver and bronze people from bronze. In brave new world this is actually realized scientifically by messing with the developmental processes of fetuses so that people of specific castes are quite literally "suited for purpose". Not to mention the disappearance of the family unit in both works... Honestly I'd be surprised if Huxley didn't read The Republic. "It always struck me as very similar [...] in that he creates something he calls a perfect city but that would be in practice a hell." I think that is the point of the dystopian genre which Plato pioneered. That we might build a society with the best of our intentions and even think that we have reached perfection, without realising it is a hellish kind of perfection.
you're focusing too much on the chain of reasoning; this is obviously debatable but imagine I said that poor people should be killed because they're a drain on society. while this is a logical solution it's clearly unethical - and if ethics (or whatever else) have any place in philosophy then socratic reasoning only tells one part of a whole. in short, socrates is a utilitarian
@@strafeist3545 except that your statement is likely to collapse the moment you put the slightest Socratic strain on it starting with what constitutes a “drain on Society”? also this assumes that ethics is founded on a set of unprovable presuppositions which epistemologically speaking borders dogmatism.
I won't lie, as an artist myself, I was initially a bit disturbed by Socrates' view on poets/artists being imitators who don't offer much real value towards a common good, in particular, they typically further deception, which in many cases may be true. But I must say, the last few minutes of this lecture really made me feel better about the path I've chosen haha. It makes me as an artist really crave knowledge and understanding of things I don't know, which is why I'm enjoying these philosophy lectures as I work! I've always wanted my art and stories to represent ideals, virtues, reasoning and sober thought, and to be useful to others to learn about something they're not familiar with or reflect on their own view of the world, ultimately in search of truth (as is the function of many stories or mythos) so learning about this has actually encouraged me to pursue this even more. I still have so much more to learn. Dr. Sugrue, your lecture style really brings these topics to life in a way that lets someone like me absorb and meditate on these ideas. Your channel is amazing.
Plato could never imagine the Beatles, Dylan, Prince, Michael, shaping society in the U.S. Ask 100 random folks on the street who Brian Green or Alan Guth are. The arts replaced rational thought with the emotional. The Homeric heroes are sports stars like Brady. The Platonists lost...
@@aaronaragon7838 To say those artists shaped society in the US is an overstatement, and is it a war anyhow? The only one who has "lost" is the one who gives in to vice, and willingly goes against their own conscience. Emotion directed toward the common good is good, and discipline is required for any craft. The creative and the rational are necessary, and not at all at war. The more congruence the better!
Every one of your lectures is amazing. I hope you continue to publish all of them. Thank you for doing this, I spent a great deal of time and effort attempting to find more of your work after hearing the lecture on Marcus Aurelius. I know it's unlikely but I wish you would do an educational podcast.
You're lectures remind me a lot of Rick Roderick - it's probably the format, and more likely the extremely clear language and talent for explicating these complex and interesting philosophers.
Having just read The Republic for the first time this year, this was a fabulous series of lectures. I need to do a re-read, because as was mentioned, a lot of the symbolism and the parallels in comparing the men and the city, are easily missed with reading it only one time. I can say I learned a lot reading through Republic, but I definitely learned a lot from these lectures as well. Thank you Dr. Sugrue!
I have been trying to work out in my mind my fundamental objections to Plato’s Republics, and this was an excellent tool. Thank you for this remarkable video!
When listening set your playback speed at 0.75. That is a much more conversational speed to listen to this fine speaker who gives an excellent presentation of Plato.
After studying engineering in college and reading and rereading the republic and plato in general for a few years, i feel i can finally understand the real gravity of the material after hearing these lectures.
Really really enjoying this series. Never gave Plato (and what the Greeks did for us generally) the respect he (and they) so obviously deserve(s), due to my own ignorance and prejudice. Having focused a bit of time on ancient Far Eastern philosophy and politics these last few years, and with my own background being firmly formed within a Christian context, all of this has helped me see more clearly how the whole of the human umwelt is tied together. Thank you professor Michael, you are a true philosopher and a king. I wish you many years of happiness and peace. Choice quotes: "Justice is to the soul what health is to the body" "They are great souls with bad education" "Ignorance is the source of all corruption and evil" (Paul speaks about the "willingly ignorant", which lately I have come to see as intensely arrogant, subjective and ironic given how Christians have behaved over the millennia, but still it hold true within a limited framework of those who are sincerely trying to overcome their own ignorance and prejudice as Paul seemed to have been doing). I believe that the reason we can account for the relative absoluteness of math compared to ethics is due to the 9dea that there are bubbles or unwelts of meaning. The Jews had three clear levels of inspiration. Christians were less clear but the same plays out. In the OT or Tanakh you have the Torah, Nevim and Ketuvim. In the NT you have the Gospels (Memoirs as Justin calls them, which includes the Acts), the Pauline epistles and the Catholic epistles. Lately I am seeing all of reality as falling into categories of more or less certainty. Interesting that you say a philosopher long can only become after age 50. I always remember Leonard Ravenhill saying that a man should not try to wrote aboom until he turns 50. I dou t he knew mub about about Plato, but it seems that no matter what, intellect and wisdom acrue incrementally. So while society is very different today, Id say that an individual human should remain in the learning phase until at least 30. Then in the practical stage from around 30 to 50, then in the teaching stage from 50 until death.
Plato's idea of the tyrannical political systems might owe something to how it was conceived of before his time. While the Homeric epics are clearly concerned with the problem of political authority and ruling elites, as seen between Agamemnon and Achilles, their composition predates the introduction of the word tyrannos into the Greek language. The word ‘tyrant’ is derived from tyrannos, which in turn has a pre-Greek origin, likely of Phrygian or Lydian origin, probably derived from Lydian tûran, “lord”, and simply means “sole ruler”. The oldest known use of the word tyrannos is associated with king Gyges of Lydia. Gyges, whom Plato uses as a disparaging example of moral depravity and wickedness (Republic 359a-360d), was the first to be known to the Greeks as a tyrant and the one who introduced the institution of tyranny to the Greeks. The Greeks understood the word tyrannos as having the meaning of military leader, specifically of leader of hoplite troops. It was Gyges who made the first use of hoplites; the hoplite bodyguard was one of the particular features of Lydian kingship. That Gyges owed his power to mercenaries is certain: Herodotos relates that the Lydians resented the murder of their king and took up arms against Gyges, but Gyges was able to force the revolting Lydians into submission with his “partisans” or mercenary hoplites (Herodotus, Histories, 1.13). The Greek terminology applying to rulers reveals that archagetes (‘the first leader’, ‘founder’, but also a word that stresses the concept of leadership especially in war, a title used of the kings of Sparta) is the word nearest in meaning to tyrannos. Archagetes has the meaning of “furtherer” and is applied both to divinities and to military leaders. In its second use it can be compared with words such as strategetes (military general, army leader) or strategos (military commander, the official title of Sicilian tyrants). The idea behind the word tyrannos is that of leading some militarily organized formation of people. In other words, the tyrant was a person who had managed to become commander of a body of mercenary troops owing allegiance to him personally and which he could use as a military/police force to control the state politically, using the state itself to collect the money with which to buy his soldiers. For example, Peisistratus, tyrant of Athens, was supported by a very considerable part of the growing population of Athens. Though forced from power, he returned to Athens again by gaining the support of foreign assistance, maintaining power with a mercenary bodyguard.
I just discovered this channel a few days ago after searching for lectures on Meditations. Been binge watching 2 lectures a night ever since. Thank you so much for this amazing teaching!
I mean algorithms weren’t created yesterday(expression). I listen to a bunch of stuff on TH-cam and just found this. Seems like a 💎. Just wondering where these TYPE of videos been hiding for so long.
1. Real world is maya, illusion... Realm of sadow 2. Mathematics is real knowledge... about space and time... realm of the form 3. Man of honor, sometime not virtue, ex: Achilles Grateful ❤
The point about minding your own business is very much reminiscent of Voltaire's injunction at the end of Candide about tending your own garden. For a long time I struggled to fathom what Voltaire meant by that. Now I know.
9:17 "Remember that [Plato] doesn't have modern natural science, and the technological and logical triumphs to make him feel comfortable with the world of the senses. He lives in a world where we don't have an accurate, or adequate, or satisfactory theory of the world of space and time, and for that reason he thinks it's uncertain." I don't think that this holds as an explanation: If you were to explain to Plato that we can explain the refraction of light with formulas in physics, that are expressed mathematically, then in Plato's mind that would just prove that true knowledge of the forms is what makes it possible to interpret fundamentally faulty sense perception in the first place. This would be doubly true if you were to explain to him one of the many interpretations of modern scientific theories, like quantum physics, which state that, fundamentally, the world of space and time is *based on* uncertainty, and probability, rather than absolute truth. This should open up a very obvious question from a Platonic perspective: Is it absolutely the case that the world of space and time is based on probability, or is it only probabilistically the case? If the first, then there needs to be some explanation for absolute certainty in a world of fundamental uncertainty, and our capacities to understand it. If it is only probabilistically the case, then it follows that within the remainder probability, it must be absolutely the case that the world of space and time is *not* based on probability in the remainder.
Modern science isn't truth. We take two steps forward and one back. Look to Nikola tesla and Steinmetz and the true nature of things as well as magnetism will become apparent. Safe travels!
Dad said, This is an intelligent thought, but Plato regards Truth as absolute certainty, independent of space and time. The inductive logic of natural science cannot yield certainty regardless of the mathematical formalization of our current experience.
It is one interpretation, not true or false. Don Quixote does not EQUAL to Nietzsche nor does Sancho to Plato, but there are certain similarities that, if taken together, can give you certain insights about both. The analogy is not, however, exclusive nor direct.
Thank you so much for this wonderful lecture Dr. Sugrue. It makes me wonder what Plato would think of radical transhumanist philosophy. Is the architecture of reality a Symposium a noumenal or phenomenal phenomena, and why does the architecture of reality exist at all. Why does absolute certainty need to exist at all. Is pure logic just logicism. Is an object of knowledge, or is it knowledge because it's knowledge, mereotopologically speaking. What if math isn't true knowledge according to impossible world semantics. Do triangles exist as a bundle of sense-data, or as immaculate Platonic objects. If something exists outside of spacetime, can there exist objects outside the outsideness of spacetime as well --- and can it be a Platonic Form. Why is perception heterogeneous to begin with --- and why. Is an abstract object a Form of ultimate Being, and does the realm of Beings overlap with a dialectic of philosopher king/queen Hegelianism. Do immaterial objects possess the Form of Senses. Did Plato consider the bridge between noumenal and phenomenal a spaceless and timeless phenomena. Is the Form of the Good a synthetic a priori existence. Can noumenal existence be harmonic. Can an abstract Form possess properties of a philosopher king/queen. Finally, does geometry exist within the timelessness and spacelessness of Quarkinos and Higgsinos according to a QCD interpretation overlap of Wittgenstein/Plato.
I have heard Dr. Sugrue's three lectures on Plato's republic and the lecture on Stoicism. The Republic speaks of arranging a society and Stoicism speaks of arranging an individual mind and body. However, both leave me with a question - how do these methods account for or deal with aspirations - social and individual? Or does it mean that aspiration is a bronze virtue - the corrupting influence of Athens - that the philosopher King saves the society/individual from themselves?
@@dr.michaelsugrue Yes of course. BTW I'm vastly enjoying re-reading the classics using your lectures as foundation. Even Hegel looks approachable now!
@@jj1985vid Apollonius of Tyana, writing as Hermes Trismegistos, said, ‘That which is above is that which is below.’ By this, he meant to tell us that our universe is a hologram, but he lacked the term.
@@_PanchoVillaIf this world is a simulation then you would have no mechanism for knowing it. Your conclusion would only be a physical effect of previous physical causes.
Hi Michael. I forgot to mention something to you. I note your interest in Shakespeare. Here is one of certain mathematical conundrums set up by the man. This is from The Tempest. "Full fathom five thy father lies," Now five fathoms is 30 feet which is equal to 360 inches. You will be well aware of this number's mystical associations in the past. One in particular is not publicly known. It will change the history of mathematics. It is truly remarkable. Anyway, that's why the depth is 5 fathoms. Cheers.
Great Video. I have enjoyed it very much. Thumbs up. Stay connected Please continue to produce more. I am looking forward to your next video. "Like" #40
I have been reading republic and gorgias, I had feeling that not only socrate is questioning his interlocutor, but also the reader, and I'm getting push back and forth answering yes and no. And although I'm not from religious famliy, but i feel like, at least in these two dialogues, the books remind me of bible, and socrate is saying something like "Sell all you have and follow me", get rid of these appearance and pursue the true good.
great lecture. now with first time hearing i certainly didnt understand everything correctly so i will rewatch. english not my motherlanguage. now is somebody willing to explain me why plato isnt the master of strohmanning and goalpost shifting. thats the expression i got right now. im new to philosophy and find it very intresting. if theres additional lectures to help understand where platos ideas comes from please refere them to me. would be grateful.
Dr. Sugrue it would be cool if you did a book by book analysis of the republic. I just finished book 7 and your videos have helped a lot so far to lock in what I read. I'd be interested in your take on the finer details if you ever feel up to it. Thanks and I appreciate you and your work.
I'm always looking for new interesting lectures on Psychology/Philosophy, please let me know if you guys have any recommendations, would be highly appreciated
Dr. Daniel Bonevac has lectures on TH-cam that are really good. Also, Philosophize This! is a podcast found here as well, but has its own website if that suits you
Smart question. It depends on what you mean by "exist". For Plato, the empirical spatiotemporal works cab be deduced from the eternal essential forms, but not the other way round. This is more Parmenides than Empedocles.
Excellent! Your reply reminds me of a wonderful brief interview of Nobel Prize physicist Richard Feynman discussing the framework/criterion of "Why".@@dr.michaelsugrue th-cam.com/video/36GT2zI8lVA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=DNw957J0FX8oYu83
When Plato talks about educating someone to be a philosopher king that know the realm of the form whose in the end will become a leader of the city, isn't he essentially talks about creating prophets?
Yes. Among other things, Plato is inventing rational monotheism, with a gold class quasi hereditary ascetic priesthood and a high priest/priestess that connects with the Form of the Good, which is YHWH without a personality. I think Platonic monotheism owes more Akhenaten and Zoroaster than Moses.
This man is the form of the professor
Underrated comment
He is pure professorness
Rest in peace professor, you will be missed! Michael Sugrue's passion for Plato and specifically 'the Republic', will not be forgotten. Thank you 🙏
my heart sinks every time I realize he is gone forever, we will never see another like him.
Now…
@@VisibleTroublewhen he says Now you know he’s about to drop an absolute banger. RIP
@@Mustard_Tiger710 I find myself using it all the time. So cool. RIP, Sugrue.
This channel is like finding a pile of gold in the wilderness...how will I ever spend it all when I get out?
What are you to do when the gold turns to lead upon exit of the wilderness is a better question in my opinion
@@Loafman-k5m Its not physical gold, but that which transmutes the self, which has an incalculable value. Physicality changes all the time, knowledge isn't going anywhere and retains its value. Why care about the leak when you are the well? Why worry about what you cannot change? Improve yourself and life will improve for you, let alone for everyone in your proximity, and its multiplicative. Stay the coarse, the wilderness is your mind, and your will the axe and your body, use it well and you might have a nice bit of firewood come winter time. Have a good day sir!
im sure you will figure it out 😎😎😎
@@Chase-vq6eq average Berserk reader W
If you get out
And I went about studying Engineering in college, if I had known that this is what philosophy was all about ... Amazing concepts!
And this gentleman, such a marvelous orator!
I think its good that you studied engineering before you got into philosophy.
You were able to better grasp the true form of the good having a background in real scientific/mathematical truth.
Sounds time to refine yourself up to gold, sibling!
The intellectuals of that time were multitalented, not just philosophers
remember that education is a life-long pursuit. You being here now, listening to philosophy lectures, reading Plato and other greats for yourself, thinking and developing your mind, is as much a philosophy education as you could get in any university program. It is far better to have engineers who know philosophy than only philosophers who know philosophy.
Good choice actually. As an engineer you can support yourself using reason and honesty.
As a philosopher you need to get hired by an university (which is only for the very few), get payed through think tank sophistry or by constantly grabbing attention through social media.
This professor had such clear passion for his subject. It's a joy to watch him teach. Lucky students who had the chance to take his live classes.
13:18 Mathematics
15:54 The Bridge to Fixed, Permanent, Reality, Natural Law.
20:30 Realms/Forms of Truth
Forms of Beauty
22:28 Dialectic - Figure things out by talking together
23:40 The Myth of The Cave,
The Shadows - (False) Reality, What we can sense
The Sun - True Reality, What makes being possible
26:17 The Journey is Asymptotic
Mr Sugrue one of the highest calibers lecturers of the modern day. Thank you sir.
Wow! 5:52 Yes! "The real corruption comes from the people themselves in EVERY city; IGNORANCE is the source of all corruption and evil." Thank you again, Dr. Sugrue...I could've used this profound acknowledgement decades ago as part of my arsenal of "intellectual self defense" (a term I first heard from Noam Chomsky) against our broken society. My lack of understanding of the source of corruption and evil cost me so much energy and heartache over the years due to the confusion that this lack of understanding creates.
"All knowledge is virtue, and all ignorance is vice - so all our vices are, really, ignorance."
I profoundly believe that.
I generally agree but knowledge is not inherently a virtue. Knowledge can be used diabolically and for selfish means. And I don’t think we can say that Ignorance is a hindrance. Being ignorant of our death is a coping mechanism that humans developed to limit our stress levels. I would say both knowledge and ignorance can be a virtue and a vice depending on the situation.
Pedro; Were you going for a syllogism here? Cuz it doesn’t work.
@@hoosierbaddy3052 Are you attempting to seem intelligent?
Because, it is working.
45:22 Bravo! Yes! It IS up to us as individuals. We DO have power both during and after this life seemingly dominated by individual helplessness/powerlessness. Upon spiritual transformation (ie: awakening/becoming conscious of every moment in this life, as well as upon death) we have the opportunity of respons-ibility (Response-ability).
I am so happy and grateful to have found these videos. Thank you.
Sugrue your lectures are thought provoking and dynamic, thank you so much for masterfully introducing me to my love of wisdom , best
Thanks!
I’m rewatching these old videos and hoping the insights that the late Professor had on The Republic will be shared at some point. I am ever intrigued by Plato’s Republic and interested in the unique reading that Dr Sugrue claimed he would share with us. Many thanks for sharing these videos and keeping them available
In addition to the many superb quotes already cited here in the comments:
"When I first read this, I didn't know books could do stuff like that."
"When I found this out, it just made my weekend."
Right on.
To extrapolate all the crucial themes of this work and make them accessible without compromising their complexity and sophistication is a remarkable achievement. I appreciate your work, Dr. Sugrue.
This is refreshing because it’s in American english. He’s a fantastic lecturer. One of the best l have ever heard, on any subject.
I agree! Most philosophy videos I find on TH-cam are British English, if English, and while I typically prefer that accent as opposed to American (I’m American) some of those videos have such boring voices it’s so hard to pay attention. But this guy is just fantastic at communicating these ideas, I feel like anyone would like these videos not just us philosophy buffs
I love this. I hope you continue uploading this lecture series. I also have to thank Michael Sugrue for attracting me to stoicism after I saw his rockstar lecture on stoicism and Marcus Aurelius. Reading Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius has had a very real and beneficial impact on my life.
I do have a question.
I read the republic in high school, not for class I was just pretentious. It always struck me as very similar to brave new world, and in other ways 1984, in that he creates something he calls a perfect city but that would be in practice a hell. I also find that Socrates has conversations where he will use a chain of logic to come to conclusions that I in someway know is incorrect but can’t quite place my finger on where in the chain that I agreed with there is a mistake.
Cheers!
There is a fun (fictional) dialogue between fat tony and Socrates in the book Antifraglie by Nasim Taleb which I think touches on the same thing as you are feeling. Socrates doesn’t allow for things to be a bit ambiguous but life often is.
@Owen Jones "he will use a chain of logic to come to conclusions that I in someway know is incorrect but can’t quite place my finger on where in the chain that I agreed with there is a mistake".
I feel the same way when I started. It seems to me, sometimes Socrates would use analogies/comparisons with false equivalency to prove his point. For example, an apple is a fruit and it a red. An orange too, is a fruit. Therefore it is red. I highly suspect though, that I have mistaken or misunderstood. I have just finished reading The Republic for the first time. In order for me to have a useful understanding of it, I think I would need to read it a few more times. Supplement those readings with lectures like Prof. Sugrue's and perhaps have some discussions on it.
I thought the same with brave new world, especially the part where Plato's kind of "caste system" is justified by saying that gold people are derived from gold, while silver people are derived from silver and bronze people from bronze. In brave new world this is actually realized scientifically by messing with the developmental processes of fetuses so that people of specific castes are quite literally "suited for purpose". Not to mention the disappearance of the family unit in both works... Honestly I'd be surprised if Huxley didn't read The Republic.
"It always struck me as very similar [...] in that he creates something he calls a perfect city but that would be in practice a hell." I think that is the point of the dystopian genre which Plato pioneered. That we might build a society with the best of our intentions and even think that we have reached perfection, without realising it is a hellish kind of perfection.
you're focusing too much on the chain of reasoning; this is obviously debatable but imagine I said that poor people should be killed because they're a drain on society. while this is a logical solution it's clearly unethical - and if ethics (or whatever else) have any place in philosophy then socratic reasoning only tells one part of a whole. in short, socrates is a utilitarian
@@strafeist3545 except that your statement is likely to collapse the moment you put the slightest Socratic strain on it starting with what constitutes a “drain on Society”? also this assumes that ethics is founded on a set of unprovable presuppositions which epistemologically speaking borders dogmatism.
It’s like getting a mind infusion. You feel your intellect elevated tremendously. I love The Republic which is so brilliant.
This is a really energetic and deeply healthy interpretation of Plato. Greetings from Serbia
I won't lie, as an artist myself, I was initially a bit disturbed by Socrates' view on poets/artists being imitators who don't offer much real value towards a common good, in particular, they typically further deception, which in many cases may be true. But I must say, the last few minutes of this lecture really made me feel better about the path I've chosen haha. It makes me as an artist really crave knowledge and understanding of things I don't know, which is why I'm enjoying these philosophy lectures as I work! I've always wanted my art and stories to represent ideals, virtues, reasoning and sober thought, and to be useful to others to learn about something they're not familiar with or reflect on their own view of the world, ultimately in search of truth (as is the function of many stories or mythos) so learning about this has actually encouraged me to pursue this even more. I still have so much more to learn.
Dr. Sugrue, your lecture style really brings these topics to life in a way that lets someone like me absorb and meditate on these ideas. Your channel is amazing.
Don't let anyone make you feel bad for your craft, even if it's the founder of western philosophy haha
Keep in mind that the very works in which these philosophers make their arguments against art...are themselves works of art.
Plato could never imagine the Beatles, Dylan, Prince, Michael, shaping society in the U.S. Ask 100 random folks on the street who Brian Green or Alan Guth are.
The arts replaced rational thought with the emotional. The Homeric heroes are sports stars like Brady.
The Platonists lost...
@@aaronaragon7838 To say those artists shaped society in the US is an overstatement, and is it a war anyhow? The only one who has "lost" is the one who gives in to vice, and willingly goes against their own conscience. Emotion directed toward the common good is good, and discipline is required for any craft. The creative and the rational are necessary, and not at all at war. The more congruence the better!
Let's remember that language is the greatest of our crafts, and plato, as a writer, was an artist himself!
Thanks Dr. Sugrue! Mad props to the camera people who captured your style meticulously!
Dr. Michael Sugrue in his prime was a phenomenal orator and educator!
Dr Sugrue, your lectures are amazingly profound in the philosophical sense. It is very encouraging to discover a passionate lecturer of philosophy.
Rest in peace professor.
Every one of your lectures is amazing. I hope you continue to publish all of them. Thank you for doing this, I spent a great deal of time and effort attempting to find more of your work after hearing the lecture on Marcus Aurelius. I know it's unlikely but I wish you would do an educational podcast.
someone said about a podcast called " the idea store"
Big Respect for this man. He knows the material so good, he can explain it as if he is the philosopher himself. Very impressive
I am rereading The Republic because of these lectures. What profound insight.
You're lectures remind me a lot of Rick Roderick - it's probably the format, and more likely the extremely clear language and talent for explicating these complex and interesting philosophers.
it’s the same organization that produced both of those series
@@GayTier1Operator Which organization?
@@sirbuster223 The Teaching Company
I thought u meant dude from diary of a wimpy kid lol
@@nayrzednem4554 Lol.. I haven't actually read that book, but not I'm aware of the similarity.
Having just read The Republic for the first time this year, this was a fabulous series of lectures. I need to do a re-read, because as was mentioned, a lot of the symbolism and the parallels in comparing the men and the city, are easily missed with reading it only one time. I can say I learned a lot reading through Republic, but I definitely learned a lot from these lectures as well. Thank you Dr. Sugrue!
I have been trying to work out in my mind my fundamental objections to Plato’s Republics, and this was an excellent tool. Thank you for this remarkable video!
When listening set your playback speed at 0.75. That is a much more conversational speed to listen to this fine speaker who gives an excellent presentation of Plato.
After studying engineering in college and reading and rereading the republic and plato in general for a few years, i feel i can finally understand the real gravity of the material after hearing these lectures.
So elegantly and clearly explained! Very enjoyable to follow.
This is absolutely brilliant
Really really enjoying this series. Never gave Plato (and what the Greeks did for us generally) the respect he (and they) so obviously deserve(s), due to my own ignorance and prejudice. Having focused a bit of time on ancient Far Eastern philosophy and politics these last few years, and with my own background being firmly formed within a Christian context, all of this has helped me see more clearly how the whole of the human umwelt is tied together. Thank you professor Michael, you are a true philosopher and a king. I wish you many years of happiness and peace.
Choice quotes:
"Justice is to the soul what health is to the body"
"They are great souls with bad education"
"Ignorance is the source of all corruption and evil" (Paul speaks about the "willingly ignorant", which lately I have come to see as intensely arrogant, subjective and ironic given how Christians have behaved over the millennia, but still it hold true within a limited framework of those who are sincerely trying to overcome their own ignorance and prejudice as Paul seemed to have been doing).
I believe that the reason we can account for the relative absoluteness of math compared to ethics is due to the 9dea that there are bubbles or unwelts of meaning. The Jews had three clear levels of inspiration. Christians were less clear but the same plays out. In the OT or Tanakh you have the Torah, Nevim and Ketuvim. In the NT you have the Gospels (Memoirs as Justin calls them, which includes the Acts), the Pauline epistles and the Catholic epistles. Lately I am seeing all of reality as falling into categories of more or less certainty.
Interesting that you say a philosopher long can only become after age 50. I always remember Leonard Ravenhill saying that a man should not try to wrote aboom until he turns 50. I dou t he knew mub about about Plato, but it seems that no matter what, intellect and wisdom acrue incrementally. So while society is very different today, Id say that an individual human should remain in the learning phase until at least 30. Then in the practical stage from around 30 to 50, then in the teaching stage from 50 until death.
I'm on round two of your lectures and we are going deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole. Amazing 😍
Plato's idea of the tyrannical political systems might owe something to how it was conceived of before his time. While the Homeric epics are clearly concerned with the problem of political authority and ruling elites, as seen between Agamemnon and Achilles, their composition predates the introduction of the word tyrannos into the Greek language. The word ‘tyrant’ is derived from tyrannos, which in turn has a pre-Greek origin, likely of Phrygian or Lydian origin, probably derived from Lydian tûran, “lord”, and simply means “sole ruler”.
The oldest known use of the word tyrannos is associated with king Gyges of Lydia. Gyges, whom Plato uses as a disparaging example of moral depravity and wickedness (Republic 359a-360d), was the first to be known to the Greeks as a tyrant and the one who introduced the institution of tyranny to the Greeks. The Greeks understood the word tyrannos as having the meaning of military leader, specifically of leader of hoplite troops. It was Gyges who made the first use of hoplites; the hoplite bodyguard was one of the particular features of Lydian kingship. That Gyges owed his power to mercenaries is certain: Herodotos relates that the Lydians resented the murder of their king and took up arms against Gyges, but Gyges was able to force the revolting Lydians into submission with his “partisans” or mercenary hoplites (Herodotus, Histories, 1.13). The Greek terminology applying to rulers reveals that archagetes (‘the first leader’, ‘founder’, but also a word that stresses the concept of leadership especially in war, a title used of the kings of Sparta) is the word nearest in meaning to tyrannos. Archagetes has the meaning of “furtherer” and is applied both to divinities and to military leaders. In its second use it can be compared with words such as strategetes (military general, army leader) or strategos (military commander, the official title of Sicilian tyrants). The idea behind the word tyrannos is that of leading some militarily organized formation of people. In other words, the tyrant was a person who had managed to become commander of a body of mercenary troops owing allegiance to him personally and which he could use as a military/police force to control the state politically, using the state itself to collect the money with which to buy his soldiers. For example, Peisistratus, tyrant of Athens, was supported by a very considerable part of the growing population of Athens. Though forced from power, he returned to Athens again by gaining the support of foreign assistance, maintaining power with a mercenary bodyguard.
Very lucid explanation of the book!
I love your lectures, I really wish to be there and listen to them all. Thanks for sharing them.
where I could find a biography of Michael Sugrue. Thank you very much !
_it will come to you in a flash_
Listen to the audience Q&As on his podcast “the idea store”. He answers some questions about his background. That’s probably as close as you’ll get
I just discovered this channel a few days ago after searching for lectures on Meditations. Been binge watching 2 lectures a night ever since. Thank you so much for this amazing teaching!
I appreciate the passion you have it helping us to understand.
Thank you sir for sharing these lectures. Thank youuu
What a guy Plato was.
Absolutely amazing. Thank you
Thank you very very very much!
It's simply awesome..thanks for the lecture...again.
35:40 a slip of the tongue: Adeimantus is the oligarchic man, not Glaucon
The whole lecture is great btw, Thank you for such an amazing content!!
This is actually pretty good and helps me put other things together
This just made my weekend.
I mean algorithms weren’t created yesterday(expression). I listen to a bunch of stuff on TH-cam and just found this. Seems like a 💎. Just wondering where these TYPE of videos been hiding for so long.
Thank you for another lecture and video upload. The explanation of the Cave is brilliant.
Congratulations on +100K subs!!
Fantastic 3 part lecture on The Republic, thank you so much for the uploads.
Another great lecture thank you
1. Real world is maya, illusion... Realm of sadow
2. Mathematics is real knowledge... about space and time... realm of the form
3. Man of honor, sometime not virtue, ex: Achilles
Grateful ❤
RIP dear😢😢😢
Fantastic presentation
This is a great lecture
...an excellent lecturer
Top Flight
Godsend
I'm only smart enough to recognize intelligence when confronted with it.
Great presentation Prof
I am still stuck and meditating on the "I went down into the Piraeus" line 😆
Mathematics is God’s gift to Platonists.
The point about minding your own business is very much reminiscent of Voltaire's injunction at the end of Candide about tending your own garden. For a long time I struggled to fathom what Voltaire meant by that. Now I know.
This is changing my life…
9:17 "Remember that [Plato] doesn't have modern natural science, and the technological and logical triumphs to make him feel comfortable with the world of the senses. He lives in a world where we don't have an accurate, or adequate, or satisfactory theory of the world of space and time, and for that reason he thinks it's uncertain."
I don't think that this holds as an explanation: If you were to explain to Plato that we can explain the refraction of light with formulas in physics, that are expressed mathematically, then in Plato's mind that would just prove that true knowledge of the forms is what makes it possible to interpret fundamentally faulty sense perception in the first place.
This would be doubly true if you were to explain to him one of the many interpretations of modern scientific theories, like quantum physics, which state that, fundamentally, the world of space and time is *based on* uncertainty, and probability, rather than absolute truth.
This should open up a very obvious question from a Platonic perspective: Is it absolutely the case that the world of space and time is based on probability, or is it only probabilistically the case? If the first, then there needs to be some explanation for absolute certainty in a world of fundamental uncertainty, and our capacities to understand it. If it is only probabilistically the case, then it follows that within the remainder probability, it must be absolutely the case that the world of space and time is *not* based on probability in the remainder.
Modern science isn't truth. We take two steps forward and one back. Look to Nikola tesla and Steinmetz and the true nature of things as well as magnetism will become apparent. Safe travels!
Dad said, This is an intelligent thought, but Plato regards Truth as absolute certainty, independent of space and time. The inductive logic of natural science cannot yield certainty regardless of the mathematical formalization of our current experience.
@@dr.michaelsugrue I can't believe the good professor took the time to reply to a comment through his daughter. That is kind of him and amazing!
Oh boy, this is quite scary. I wish we didn't lose Michael so soon, our democracy needs him now.
the great thing about phiolsophy is that because plato is the goat, to the extent that this lecture is about plato, it doesnt go out of date
The sword logic will carve the world of forms, this is the realization of the final shape
How true is this?
Nietzsche:Quixote::Plato:Sancho
I love these lectures, thank you for uploading!
So true sir!
It is one interpretation, not true or false. Don Quixote does not EQUAL to Nietzsche nor does Sancho to Plato, but there are certain similarities that, if taken together, can give you certain insights about both. The analogy is not, however, exclusive nor direct.
Thank you again!!!
Thank you so much for this wonderful lecture Dr. Sugrue. It makes me wonder what Plato would think of radical transhumanist philosophy. Is the architecture of reality a Symposium a noumenal or phenomenal phenomena, and why does the architecture of reality exist at all. Why does absolute certainty need to exist at all. Is pure logic just logicism. Is an object of knowledge, or is it knowledge because it's knowledge, mereotopologically speaking.
What if math isn't true knowledge according to impossible world semantics. Do triangles exist as a bundle of sense-data, or as immaculate Platonic objects. If something exists outside of spacetime, can there exist objects outside the outsideness of spacetime as well --- and can it be a Platonic Form. Why is perception heterogeneous to begin with --- and why. Is an abstract object a Form of ultimate Being, and does the realm of Beings overlap with a dialectic of philosopher king/queen Hegelianism. Do immaterial objects possess the Form of Senses.
Did Plato consider the bridge between noumenal and phenomenal a spaceless and timeless phenomena. Is the Form of the Good a synthetic a priori existence. Can noumenal existence be harmonic. Can an abstract Form possess properties of a philosopher king/queen. Finally, does geometry exist within the timelessness and spacelessness of Quarkinos and Higgsinos according to a QCD interpretation overlap of Wittgenstein/Plato.
The framed map - a map of America by John Speed.
Thank you , I was wondering .
RIP professor
I have heard Dr. Sugrue's three lectures on Plato's republic and the lecture on Stoicism. The Republic speaks of arranging a society and Stoicism speaks of arranging an individual mind and body.
However, both leave me with a question - how do these methods account for or deal with aspirations - social and individual?
Or does it mean that aspiration is a bronze virtue - the corrupting influence of Athens - that the philosopher King saves the society/individual from themselves?
Sugrue is the Philosopher King.
That is flattering but false. Far from it. I wouldn't be able even to recognize a PK if he walked up and shook my hand.
@@dr.michaelsugrue Yes of course.
BTW I'm vastly enjoying re-reading the classics using your lectures as foundation. Even Hegel looks approachable now!
Plato knew this world is a simulation from the beginning
...and Keanu gets all the credit from "The Matrix" 😆
@@jj1985vid Apollonius of Tyana, writing as Hermes Trismegistos, said, ‘That which is above is that which is below.’ By this, he meant to tell us that our universe is a hologram, but he lacked the term.
@@_PanchoVillaIf this world is a simulation then you would have no mechanism for knowing it. Your conclusion would only be a physical effect of previous physical causes.
Hi Michael. I forgot to mention something to you. I note your interest in Shakespeare. Here is one of certain mathematical conundrums set up by the man. This is from The Tempest.
"Full fathom five thy father lies,"
Now five fathoms is 30 feet which is equal to 360 inches. You will be well aware of this number's mystical associations in the past. One in particular is not publicly known. It will change the history of mathematics. It is truly remarkable. Anyway, that's why the depth is 5 fathoms. Cheers.
Great Video.
I have enjoyed it very much.
Thumbs up. Stay connected
Please continue to produce more.
I am looking forward to your next video.
"Like" #40
I have been reading republic and gorgias, I had feeling that not only socrate is questioning his interlocutor, but also the reader, and I'm getting push back and forth answering yes and no. And although I'm not from religious famliy, but i feel like, at least in these two dialogues, the books remind me of bible, and socrate is saying something like "Sell all you have and follow me", get rid of these appearance and pursue the true good.
great lecture. now with first time hearing i certainly didnt understand everything correctly so i will rewatch. english not my motherlanguage. now is somebody willing to explain me why plato isnt the master of strohmanning and goalpost shifting. thats the expression i got right now.
im new to philosophy and find it very intresting. if theres additional lectures to help understand where platos ideas comes from please refere them to me. would be grateful.
great enthusiasm
I feel smarter just for clicking on this
When was this recorded? Looks like 1994 based on the style, trying to judge that a prof has less sense of A La Mode.
Subscribed - perfect channel
Up we go! :D
😄 yes!
good work
Am I the only one who sees the soul of a dionysiokolax here behind the elegantly talking body?
Dr. Sugrue it would be cool if you did a book by book analysis of the republic. I just finished book 7 and your videos have helped a lot so far to lock in what I read. I'd be interested in your take on the finer details if you ever feel up to it. Thanks and I appreciate you and your work.
Where is Parts 2,3 and 4?
brilliant!
Have you ever read the book “The Fourth Turning”? Or are you familiar with the Roman concept of the Saecleum?
I'm always looking for new interesting lectures on Psychology/Philosophy, please let me know if you guys have any recommendations, would be highly appreciated
Dr. Daniel Bonevac has lectures on TH-cam that are really good. Also, Philosophize This! is a podcast found here as well, but has its own website if that suits you
I reommend Dr. Pierre Grimes. He has some great lectures from the Philosophical Research Society.
There is a TH-cam channel named Eternalised. He goes over many very influential thinkers in an engaging way.
Womderful!
My favorite kind of people are the kind of people whose weekends are made better by some “landslide of information”
Nice.
How did Plato know that metaphysical entities exist? Isn't this an induction from the physical world?
Smart question. It depends on what you mean by "exist". For Plato, the empirical spatiotemporal works cab be deduced from the eternal essential forms, but not the other way round. This is more Parmenides than Empedocles.
Excellent! Your reply reminds me of a wonderful brief interview of Nobel Prize physicist Richard Feynman discussing the framework/criterion of "Why".@@dr.michaelsugrue th-cam.com/video/36GT2zI8lVA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=DNw957J0FX8oYu83
When Plato talks about educating someone to be a philosopher king that know the realm of the form whose in the end will become a leader of the city, isn't he essentially talks about creating prophets?
Yes. Among other things, Plato is inventing rational monotheism, with a gold class quasi hereditary ascetic priesthood and a high priest/priestess that connects with the Form of the Good, which is YHWH without a personality. I think Platonic monotheism owes more Akhenaten and Zoroaster than Moses.
30:20 and BOOM! Ladies and gentlemen, THAT's the reason we have the mess of society we have today. 😊
Me who believes that society is a mess because people aren't self interested enough: 👁👄👁
Philosophers: If the world dosen't reflect my Ideas there must be something wrong with the universe, not me. 😂
I am officially Micheal Sugrue fanboy.
I wish to engage in a dialectic with you someday if I'm lucky!