Love you work Robert your technical detail and explanation is outstanding, based on fact not hear say. I think the seat belt alert switching of is brilliant. When working on the land you are in off road mode. It is so frustrating when you are constantly getting in and out of the vehicle, opening and closing stock gates or collecting tools and equipment at the end of the day, what a god send The other interesting thing is HDI can tell you run hours, just like tractors. On the land distance travelled is not always hours of use, hence why serves intervals are based on operating hours. Glad to see a manufacture has thought about those who use the vehicle as a practical tool not just for recreational use
Great video Robert! Absolutely on point your driving recommendations for the Grenadier. Winch rope is short and you can only use 10-11 meters of it, not more.
Looking forward to getting our new Ineos and making it the long range tourer with Aussie tested mods, suspension lift, adjustable shocks, camp lights, fridge, RTT with solar and required BCDC charger with Lithium battery and a very needed extended under body fuel tank.
I run an ARB zero 69L dual zone fridge/freezer for 3 days off the batteries with no issues. I started off using the 12V cig. Plug, but have since switched to a hard wired Ando plug to the Aux battery. Yes it draws down the state of charge after a few days, but I feel it’s sufficient for fridges, aux lights, and winch power needs. Not about to run a coffee machine or induction cooker any day soon, but that stuff is blasphemy anyways… Thanks for taking the time to make these videos. They’ve been very nice to hear. And I learned today that 4L is usable without the CDL. Thanks!!
@@L2SFBC 😂 A Nespresso machine in an outback 4x4 as opposed to a Billy or Jetboil to heat water and pour over fresh coffee grounds in my opinion… is blasphemous. Only because the time we take to go out to the bush to enjoy the finer things should also involve taking the time to prepare the highest quality of beverage possible. I’ve drank my fair share of Nespresso pods at work, and they’re great for that environment. Quick, easy, pick me up. But when I’m not at work, I appreciate the inconvenience of having to sit an extra 3 minutes to boil my water and make a fresh cuppa.
@@leftcoastoverland8750 Yeah, look I take Coffee Bags (Robert Timms with condensed milk) and that’s barely passable - I really can’t really abide instant coffee. We use our Nespresso Vertuo machine (Nespresso Classic is rubbish) while camping etc. What I Don’t take is a TV/Projector or Play Movies/Blast Music like many do when camping. The noise stays at home (Actually we don’t do that at home either).
The seat belt alarm is annoying. My Jimny will bong at you if you don’t wear your belt. Green laning in the UK is low speed and we often have many gates in short distances to open and close. So you are in and out of the vehicle a lot and don’t really need your belt on. A shame the Brake Traction Control is so far behind market leaders. Lockers are fine, but optional and buying used you may not have them. Plus I like to retain steering for most of my use.
This threw me for a loop as well. Seat belt bongs are the main reason to hit that button. Winching, rock crawling, getting out to spot and so on its a blessing to turn that off.
Would still love to hear the philosophy of the dual battery system, and how it actually operates. Regarding how the aux battery is charged, how aux battery load/discharge affects the starter battery. Or more clearly, can I connect my fridge to the aux battery for overnight camping (via DIY wiring to an Anderson plug), without draining my starter battery?
There's a base layer of information on how the dual battery system works within the CTEK manual for the Smartpass. The Smartpass fitted to the Grenadier very much looks like the retail version (mine actually came with the retail box in the back of the vehicle) but confirmation from Ineos that it's not a bespoke version would be good to have (it's been asked but never answered!). A 2nd layer of information is available to anyone who lifts the rear seats and just follows the physical wiring. It's pretty clear that the auxiliary battery serves no load other than that via the Smartpass. I've fitted a Victron Smartpass to the auxiliary so I can see what's coming out and when. The issue seems to be more around the charging strategy and if Ineos have adopted in full that of the BMW intelligent alternator or altered it to suit the different charging/load requirements of a 4x4/overlander vehicle. Have a search for "Aftersales Training - Product Information. Intelligent alternator control IGR as a starter for ten.
Sounds like the Ineos's DBC is similar to the Traxide DBC, which tests the starting battery and allows some usage of starting battery power, while ensuring there is still enough charge to start the vehicle. This means a fridge connected to the second battery can also draw on some of the surplus charge in the starting battery.
I wrote a more detailed comment about this on reddit, but as an owner, my biggest frustration with the Ineos' electrics is that they rely too much on sensor confirmation rather than indications of what was commanded. E.g. locker light waits for sensor confirmation, rather than just telling you it is unlocked. Air conditioning seems to rely on sensors to tell you what temperature is like in the cab rather than just commanding full cool, etc. its a weird model for a system that shouldn't have too many different states.
What you forgot to mention: Rear veiw camera is also disabled in off-road mode. I would have been interested why Ineos made that decission (in particular with the relaively large turning circle the rear camera would be handy also in off-road mode).
If you select reverse, then hit the offroad button it works. Or you can do it via the Temperature screen ; tap the 3 bars top right and toggle to Camera on option. Or if you install a clip on reverse camera (I have dual cameras as I'm towing) that's another option!
I have said the daul battery system is a parallel system, doubling your capacity. The whole purpose if the second battery is to top off starter battery. Also the ctek is there to max alternator charging since the Grenadier has a 250amp alternator. The ctek pulls 120 to maximize charging.
A second battery for starting is not normally fitted to a 4x4 which can start off one battery. "Dual battery" means, in 4x4 terms, another battery for non-starter use.
From the CTEK Smartpass manual it's very much NOT a parallel system; however, it does sense when the main battery is under voltage for cranking the starter and will switch the batteries into a parallel mode to aid starting. Another indicator of it not being parallel, is the ability of the Smartpass to automatically trickle charge the stater from the auxiliary within a certain voltage threshold. If it was true parallel this wouldn't be necessary or indeed possible.
@stevegreen101 agree with everything you said. The only hurdle is the battery system set up has created a situation where the aux battery is constantly trickle charging the main battery. The example is the individuals with aux battery going days without driving. Only to find a flat battery in starter and aux. They require a jump pack to get them going. The cut off wired by Ineos is not working as attended.
@@peopleschamp7258 The Smartpass has a voltage cutoff when trickle charging (11.5v from memory). I can't see anything wired in that would suggest Ineos have a separate cutoff. If the battery assist is failing to start engines, then I think this is more down to the general condition of the batteries. I suspect that these vehicles are early models that spent many months after build being shuttled around the factory holding/rework areas and never having a chance to a actually build any charge back into them. Ineos effectively degraded them prior to delivery to their owners. There's certainly been too many reports of them being changed out under warranty for just normal manufacturing issues.
@@L2SFBC My dual battery system used a deep cycle cold cranking battery in the ome position for running everything and a second battery just for starting if the OEM battery position battery was flat as I was more concerned about not being able to start the car if the interior car light was left on because the door was ad-jar or I left the radio on for too long. I was told by the Auto Electrician this was a very unusual setup, but it worked for me and gave me piece of mind.
the dual battery setup is (i believe) explained by the term auxilary battery. Its only the diff lock light that needs the speed differential isnt it. ?The lockers have already disengaged?
You are correct: the front and rear diffs lock and unlock almost immediately. It's the sensors which signal locked/unlocked via flashing/ still lights which lag in response. I.e. you don't have to "wait". The Tech Manager's response confirmed this😉
I think the key issue with this locker disengagement implementation is although the lockers are disengaged the computer still requires this extra confirmation from the wheel speed sensors, and this can take a while, and during this time certain vehicle functionalities are disabled until this confirmation happens. An example would be you climb a hillside using lockers and once you reach the top you need to immediately descend the other side of the hill. If you unlock the lockers at the top, it will prevent you from using hill descent control because it has not yet been able to get the confirmation that the lockers are disengaged as you are unable to drive far enough for the speed sensors to report back before the hill descent control is required.
Problem is, until the car has "proof" (by detecting a speed difference) that the diffs are unlocked you won't be able to engage the lockers. Quickly disenganging and enganging axle lockers often times does not work in a Grenadier and you end up with an unlocked diff and blinking lights with no chance to engange the lockers immediately
An excellent point, QuiltedQuiver! An edge case maybe, but certainly one well within possibility. Essentially, you press a button and the locker should be IN NOW, press again, OUT NOW. No messing around, because delays are somewhere between irritating and dangerous - yes, dangerous.
Probably should clarify that Centre Diff Lock Always on hills - to always on low traction hills. Hills on the highway - never. And a high traction surface like rocks, possibly not. You also mention engaging lockers on rocks in your chart - well only if loose rocks. Many rock climbs are solid rocks and are a high traction surface where you will break things with lockers on. Sorry I know the info has been said about not locking on high traction surfaces but you should clarify some comments as they sound contradictory - especially the always on hills comment, because it’s not always on hills.
OK, to clarify: - bitumen, highway hills - no CDL. That is covered by unlock mode on bitumen. - offroad on rocks etc - YES LOCK THE CDL, hills or no. There is no "possibly". Lock it on rocks. - axle lockers on rocks - use them. That's actually one of the best use cases for axle lockers, you'll be able to crawl up high-traction, high-flex rocks with ease.
@@L2SFBC Cheers for that. It’ll keep the numpties from locking their CDL on the bitumen hills cos by having said Always on hills there are people that would turn it back on again when they hear that said. I drive for a living and there are many fools out there. See I personally don’t have an unlock mode (or lock) with a computer controlled coupling Permanent 4WD Land Rover - it applies as much to the other axle as needed when needed and (even before needed) as is preemptive not just reactive as are all modern LRs.
Thanks, Robert and INEOS - the message to the world is grand!!
Love you work Robert your technical detail and explanation is outstanding, based on fact not hear say. I think the seat belt alert switching of is brilliant. When working on the land you are in off road mode. It is so frustrating when you are constantly getting in and out of the vehicle, opening and closing stock gates or collecting tools and equipment at the end of the day, what a god send
The other interesting thing is HDI can tell you run hours, just like tractors. On the land distance travelled is not always hours of use, hence why serves intervals are based on operating hours. Glad to see a manufacture has thought about those who use the vehicle as a practical tool not just for recreational use
Thank you! Yes noted the hours when I did the Grenadier review, very helpful.
Great video Robert!
Absolutely on point your driving recommendations for the Grenadier.
Winch rope is short and you can only use 10-11 meters of it, not more.
Thanks, yes I think there's 15 on drum, 12m usuable
Looking forward to getting our new Ineos and making it the long range tourer with Aussie tested mods, suspension lift, adjustable shocks, camp lights, fridge, RTT with solar and required BCDC charger with Lithium battery and a very needed extended under body fuel tank.
I run an ARB zero 69L dual zone fridge/freezer for 3 days off the batteries with no issues. I started off using the 12V cig. Plug, but have since switched to a hard wired Ando plug to the Aux battery. Yes it draws down the state of charge after a few days, but I feel it’s sufficient for fridges, aux lights, and winch power needs. Not about to run a coffee machine or induction cooker any day soon, but that stuff is blasphemy anyways…
Thanks for taking the time to make these videos. They’ve been very nice to hear. And I learned today that 4L is usable without the CDL. Thanks!!
Haha. I run a 3kW Inverter with induction cooker, Air Fryer and Coffee Machine (not simultaneously) so I disagree with your comments lol.
coffee makers are WHAT?
@@L2SFBC 😂 A Nespresso machine in an outback 4x4 as opposed to a Billy or Jetboil to heat water and pour over fresh coffee grounds in my opinion… is blasphemous. Only because the time we take to go out to the bush to enjoy the finer things should also involve taking the time to prepare the highest quality of beverage possible.
I’ve drank my fair share of Nespresso pods at work, and they’re great for that environment. Quick, easy, pick me up.
But when I’m not at work, I appreciate the inconvenience of having to sit an extra 3 minutes to boil my water and make a fresh cuppa.
I hear you, I like a coffee as well but taking an actual coffee machine seems like overkill so I just use sachets :-)
@@leftcoastoverland8750 Yeah, look I take Coffee Bags (Robert Timms with condensed milk) and that’s barely passable - I really can’t really abide instant coffee.
We use our Nespresso Vertuo machine (Nespresso Classic is rubbish) while camping etc.
What I Don’t take is a TV/Projector or Play Movies/Blast Music like many do when camping. The noise stays at home (Actually we don’t do that at home either).
Final message = good luck and happy landings!
The seat belt alarm is annoying. My Jimny will bong at you if you don’t wear your belt. Green laning in the UK is low speed and we often have many gates in short distances to open and close. So you are in and out of the vehicle a lot and don’t really need your belt on. A shame the Brake Traction Control is so far behind market leaders. Lockers are fine, but optional and buying used you may not have them. Plus I like to retain steering for most of my use.
Good points
This threw me for a loop as well. Seat belt bongs are the main reason to hit that button. Winching, rock crawling, getting out to spot and so on its a blessing to turn that off.
Green laning in the UK is subject to the same laws as the normal roads, so seat belts should be worn.
Cheers; an excellent logical summary & DIY guide!
Glad it was helpful!
Would still love to hear the philosophy of the dual battery system, and how it actually operates. Regarding how the aux battery is charged, how aux battery load/discharge affects the starter battery. Or more clearly, can I connect my fridge to the aux battery for overnight camping (via DIY wiring to an Anderson plug), without draining my starter battery?
I cannot say, that's all I got.
There's a base layer of information on how the dual battery system works within the CTEK manual for the Smartpass. The Smartpass fitted to the Grenadier very much looks like the retail version (mine actually came with the retail box in the back of the vehicle) but confirmation from Ineos that it's not a bespoke version would be good to have (it's been asked but never answered!).
A 2nd layer of information is available to anyone who lifts the rear seats and just follows the physical wiring. It's pretty clear that the auxiliary battery serves no load other than that via the Smartpass. I've fitted a Victron Smartpass to the auxiliary so I can see what's coming out and when.
The issue seems to be more around the charging strategy and if Ineos have adopted in full that of the BMW intelligent alternator or altered it to suit the different charging/load requirements of a 4x4/overlander vehicle. Have a search for "Aftersales Training - Product Information. Intelligent alternator control IGR as a starter for ten.
Sounds like the Ineos's DBC is similar to the Traxide DBC, which tests the starting battery and allows some usage of starting battery power, while ensuring there is still enough charge to start the vehicle. This means a fridge connected to the second battery can also draw on some of the surplus charge in the starting battery.
Could be. Who knows? I don't like to guess these things and it should be clearly documented how it works.
That would run very much counter to the way a standard CTEK Smartpass is setup.
I wrote a more detailed comment about this on reddit, but as an owner, my biggest frustration with the Ineos' electrics is that they rely too much on sensor confirmation rather than indications of what was commanded. E.g. locker light waits for sensor confirmation, rather than just telling you it is unlocked. Air conditioning seems to rely on sensors to tell you what temperature is like in the cab rather than just commanding full cool, etc. its a weird model for a system that shouldn't have too many different states.
I think that's a good point and a good principle to consider.
What you forgot to mention: Rear veiw camera is also disabled in off-road mode. I would have been interested why Ineos made that decission (in particular with the relaively large turning circle the rear camera would be handy also in off-road mode).
If you select reverse, then hit the offroad button it works.
Or you can do it via the Temperature screen ; tap the 3 bars top right and toggle to Camera on option.
Or if you install a clip on reverse camera (I have dual cameras as I'm towing) that's another option!
Handy tips thanks Paul!
I have said the daul battery system is a parallel system, doubling your capacity. The whole purpose if the second battery is to top off starter battery.
Also the ctek is there to max alternator charging since the Grenadier has a 250amp alternator. The ctek pulls 120 to maximize charging.
A second battery for starting is not normally fitted to a 4x4 which can start off one battery. "Dual battery" means, in 4x4 terms, another battery for non-starter use.
From the CTEK Smartpass manual it's very much NOT a parallel system; however, it does sense when the main battery is under voltage for cranking the starter and will switch the batteries into a parallel mode to aid starting.
Another indicator of it not being parallel, is the ability of the Smartpass to automatically trickle charge the stater from the auxiliary within a certain voltage threshold. If it was true parallel this wouldn't be necessary or indeed possible.
@stevegreen101 agree with everything you said. The only hurdle is the battery system set up has created a situation where the aux battery is constantly trickle charging the main battery. The example is the individuals with aux battery going days without driving. Only to find a flat battery in starter and aux. They require a jump pack to get them going. The cut off wired by Ineos is not working as attended.
@@peopleschamp7258 The Smartpass has a voltage cutoff when trickle charging (11.5v from memory). I can't see anything wired in that would suggest Ineos have a separate cutoff.
If the battery assist is failing to start engines, then I think this is more down to the general condition of the batteries. I suspect that these vehicles are early models that spent many months after build being shuttled around the factory holding/rework areas and never having a chance to a actually build any charge back into them. Ineos effectively degraded them prior to delivery to their owners. There's certainly been too many reports of them being changed out under warranty for just normal manufacturing issues.
@@L2SFBC My dual battery system used a deep cycle cold cranking battery in the ome position for running everything and a second battery just for starting if the OEM battery position battery was flat as I was more concerned about not being able to start the car if the interior car light was left on because the door was ad-jar or I left the radio on for too long. I was told by the Auto Electrician this was a very unusual setup, but it worked for me and gave me piece of mind.
the dual battery setup is (i believe) explained by the term auxilary battery. Its only the diff lock light that needs the speed differential isnt it. ?The lockers have already disengaged?
You are correct: the front and rear diffs lock and unlock almost immediately. It's the sensors which signal locked/unlocked via flashing/ still lights which lag in response. I.e. you don't have to "wait". The Tech Manager's response confirmed this😉
Yes correct
I think the key issue with this locker disengagement implementation is although the lockers are disengaged the computer still requires this extra confirmation from the wheel speed sensors, and this can take a while, and during this time certain vehicle functionalities are disabled until this confirmation happens. An example would be you climb a hillside using lockers and once you reach the top you need to immediately descend the other side of the hill. If you unlock the lockers at the top, it will prevent you from using hill descent control because it has not yet been able to get the confirmation that the lockers are disengaged as you are unable to drive far enough for the speed sensors to report back before the hill descent control is required.
Problem is, until the car has "proof" (by detecting a speed difference) that the diffs are unlocked you won't be able to engage the lockers. Quickly disenganging and enganging axle lockers often times does not work in a Grenadier and you end up with an unlocked diff and blinking lights with no chance to engange the lockers immediately
An excellent point, QuiltedQuiver! An edge case maybe, but certainly one well within possibility. Essentially, you press a button and the locker should be IN NOW, press again, OUT NOW. No messing around, because delays are somewhere between irritating and dangerous - yes, dangerous.
Probably should clarify that Centre Diff Lock Always on hills - to always on low traction hills.
Hills on the highway - never. And a high traction surface like rocks, possibly not.
You also mention engaging lockers on rocks in your chart - well only if loose rocks. Many rock climbs are solid rocks and are a high traction surface where you will break things with lockers on.
Sorry I know the info has been said about not locking on high traction surfaces but you should clarify some comments as they sound contradictory - especially the always on hills comment, because it’s not always on hills.
OK, to clarify:
- bitumen, highway hills - no CDL. That is covered by unlock mode on bitumen.
- offroad on rocks etc - YES LOCK THE CDL, hills or no. There is no "possibly". Lock it on rocks.
- axle lockers on rocks - use them. That's actually one of the best use cases for axle lockers, you'll be able to crawl up high-traction, high-flex rocks with ease.
@@L2SFBC Cheers for that. It’ll keep the numpties from locking their CDL on the bitumen hills cos by having said Always on hills there are people that would turn it back on again when they hear that said.
I drive for a living and there are many fools out there.
See I personally don’t have an unlock mode (or lock) with a computer controlled coupling Permanent 4WD Land Rover - it applies as much to the other axle as needed when needed and (even before needed) as is preemptive not just reactive as are all modern LRs.
@@jerrymyahzcatHow is the LR preemptive? I thought it relied on sensors reacting to slip to lock up clutch packs?