How Do We Decipher Forgotten Languages?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มี.ค. 2021
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Writing is awesome, but it's only really useful while we still know how to read a particular writing system, so when we forget how to read a script, how do we re-learn with no one to teach us?
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📖 SOURCES:
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Imagine the future generations are trying to decipher Latin alphabet. Especially if you consider the likes of English, German, French, Spanish and Turkish have different phonology for the same letter.
Language buff here. I find the Turkish form of the Latin alphabet to be one of the smartest writing systems ever devised. Unlike English, you have one letter per sound--simple.
Same with Cyrillic
@@DarDarBinks1986 Except thats not true. Although many languages might seemingly seem to have the 1 sound=1 symbol rule, it is often broken. Using Turkish as an example, the "e" symbol can represent both the /æ/ and /e/ phonetic sound, as in the difference between the e's in the word "erker". "g" can represent both /g/ and /ɟ/, in gam vs in gerçek as an example. "k" can represent /k/ and /c/ (kabak vs şekil). "l" can be /l/ or /ɫ/ (bilinç vs kulak). "n" can be /n/, /ɲ/ or /ŋ/ (nense vs eNgin vs yaNgın). "v" can represent /v/ and /β/ (çivi vs vücut). And finally, "ğ" can represent /j/ like in "düğün" or be silent. So obviously its not as big of a thing as in English, but it still exists.
I think the Latin alphabet is the least probable to fall out of use.
@@olbiomoiros and why do you think that?
Anyone else pissed off at the graffiti on the ancient ruins.
ikr
people have been graffiti'ing ruins since ancient times lmao
they want to be part of history
@@parmaxolotl
Yep, vandalism is as old as humanity!
To be (slightly) fair this was the Witch‘s Castle in Forest Part in Portland. I really wish there wasn‘t graffiti on it, but it‘s not really an ancient ruin, it‘s literally just an unfinished public restroom from the 30‘s or 40‘s
actually in ancient egypt they would write recipes on the walls of tombs for the dead person to follow in the afterlife, so finding a "recipe for corndogs" wouldn't be that weird (like obviously they didn't have corndogs but you get what I'm saying)
source
@@goShinigami phil
It'd be pretty neat if Linear A or Linear B were fully transcribed cuz then we'd know more about Mycenaean Greece aka Ancient Greece's edgy first draft
Michael Ventris deciphered Linear B. It’s Greek. Read John Chadwick's The Deciphering of Linear B, it’s a short and very entertaining read. Ventris was a unique genius.
@@patmorris9692 yes but linear B has still not been fully deciphered. Almost 1/3 of the characters remain a mystery
@@georgios_5342 still better than linear A's situation
Linear A is Minoan
@@kyrav.6920 Putatively. It remains undeciphered but is probably Indo-European.
What if these "ancient languages" is just the old timers trolling future people
thanks for the idea
well the first "Your mom" joke is from ancient times so thats possible
I love seeing you out on location! Not so sure about the hat change tho :)
That ad transition.
Lmao
Loved the archelogy look!
@@andrewromine1909 that is just the inner Loyd every one has coming out (Lindy Beige)
@@sirBrouwer god i love that guy
@@BigBoss-sm9xj g8
I do cryptography (in the mathematical/computer science sense) and it's pretty similar to de"crypting" different alphabets/writing systems (in fact, before computers could check billions of things per second, making up your own alphabet and leaving out spaces was a fairly good way to make a quick and dirty encryption)
Context clues are always important and can give you a base to build upon. Like the example of Darius's father not having a certain title; once you break in, everything cascades out.
"Big Iron KhAnubis isn't real, he cant hurt you"
Big Iron KhAnubis:
Awesome video!! It'd be great if you could also make a video in the future about how people managed to communicate with cultures they just met (as in, say, the Portuguese with the Japanese)
Yes this would be so great
Ooh yes, that would be interesting! Like first contact, but of the pre-sci fi kind!
Indeed!! Keep it up man 💪
It would mostly go back to the more old style of talking with hand and foot. and pointing at things.
YES, YES, PLEASE! (screaming like a little girl)
Great video! One small point, KhAnubis provides the native pronunciations for Darius and Hystatpes, but gives the Greek names for the other Persians he mentions. If anyone's curious, Xerxes was Khshayarsha, Cyrus was Kurus, and Cambyses was Kabujiya.
By the way, if anyone's interested in learning more the briefly mentioned decipherment of Hieroglyphs, I have a series about the subject on my channel!
Is Kabujiya related to Kamboja?
@@FirstLast-hz8ut Possibly! A connection has been proposed, but we can't be entirely sure since the etymology of Kamboja isn't recorded anywhere.
Interesting why did he do this😠
@@Amharizz You mean why did KhAnubis only give the Greek versions of those names? Probably just for time.
They didn't even try with Xerxes. Feels like they just tried to translate the Shayarsh part and left kh and a out.
That's some quality unicode rendering @ 3:41
I will also throw out Classical Mayan Heiroglyphs, the are almost fully deciphered but there are still many unknown glyphs that have yet to be deciphered. Just to add another layer of complexity, many ancient and forgotten languages are halfway/partially deciphered
I've became obsessed with studying kanji writing through the historical etymologies of each symbol after i realized that they're basically "stick figure drawings" portraits of complex descriptions of things, instead of meaningless random combination of strokes according to popular Japanese belief.
Got your back. Statistical analysis of Japanese and Chinese has determined their order of development and the same dev. Chain sequence (4-3-2) for Japanese which gets you Koi (the colourful fish) is in Chinese a number of possibilities including Hua (flower) meaning they are dialect variations of an older common language and Koi and Hua (4-3-2) refers to colour, possibly even the same colour.
4-3-2 (Unknown Cult.)
= Colour
____________|___________
| |
Koi (Jap.) Hua (Chi.)
= Koi Fish = Flower
Love how the quality is always getting better! Keep doing you !
Always look forward to these videos!
3:40 I'm honoured that my language's scripts were used in one of your videos!
Very informative video, love your work as always
Thanks for another great video!
Informative and humorous, my favorite!
Well done. I find the subject of linguistics and old writing systems to be very interesting and I think you covered the topic very well. I learned a lot as well.
Love your self effacing humour.
And that you are such a smart cookie
Once again: congratulations on another amazing video.
this video is great quality storytelling nice one👌
This channel is so cool. Reinstated my childhood love of archeology. Thank you I'm beginning to learn multiple languages and plan to study anthropology. Education ROCKS
Your videos are always great!
Thanks
Extremely interesting topic!
Really great video! However, regarding the claim that cuneiform is the longest used writing system in human history, I just wanted to mention Mayan logographs have been attested for a longer period of time, 3000BCE-1500CE (since this family is often forgotten about!) :)
The ad scenes are always golden.
Dont know what this was doing in my recomendations but I'm not complaining!
This is interesting information, and useful
Perfect thank you
I recommend looking at Desset's recent work on Linear Elamite. I haven't yet read the official publication, but it seems that he may have deciphered it.
Awesome video! New subscriber!!
The great thing about languages now is that they will be stored and archived on the internet in many languages to be able to be deciphered in the future. I am aware languages change over time but this will always theoretically keep updating this as long as people learn it in future writing systems and languages. It also will become a lot easier to find these translations with it being stored and archived, and that doesn’t even count things like it being passed down throughout generations and books.
Imagine future historians deciphering random graffiti, then assuming theyre very tricky as Voynich manuscripts.
Something interesting to do is to compare the ancient Indus Valley script symbols with the Easter Island Rongorongo script symbols and you will see that they are almost an exact match. What is even more interesting is that Easter Island is exactly opposite from the Indus Valley on the globe.
Ancient languages are pretty cool. Especially when they have connections to one another.
This is a great video
Awesome video! :-3
Ksatra definitely makes me think of Shattrath in WoW and how the Naaru HQ on Outland is there!
So basically, find a translation from rocks, stones, pots and vases 😅
I loved your video
nice video i like the drawings too!
E
Very interesting!
Well Done 🎓🎓🏆🏆
Your humor makes the ads palatable...
This is very interesting.
I just realized how much KhAnubis sounds like Cannabis.
0:34 I'm just looking at this page of old text, wondering what it says but then I notice phrases like ''bo tobe samemu'', ''Boże'' and ''na tweho'' - that has to some kind of medieval Czech
not necessarily czech, that can be bassicaly most of the slavic laungages. boze means god and bo tobie samemu is something along the lines of "to you". and im not even czech
@@TheTH-camCrusader01 It is an actual czech from around 16-17th century. You can find some czech exclusive letters such as Ř or Ě
Ad scene at the end made me chuckle. Great integration! :D
Cool video too I guess.
I don't know why "abugidas" are always left out when talking about language script...
Because, for the purposes of classifying an undeciphered script, an abugida is a syllabary the syllabograms of which have a particular relationship among each other. No one ever talks about "featural alphabets," which are to alphabets as abugidas are to syllabaries. Unless, of course, one is talking about the Korean script (the one real-world example) or a random conscript (the vast majority of conscripts are featural, if only because it's easier to a conlanger to make them up).
@@wtrmute hmm
Its my first time looking to your hair, because generally you wear that Egyptian Pharaoh kinda hat.
Looking AT your hair.
TO?? Sounds a bit odd
There is also a series of ancient Arabian inscriptions called Thamudic A-F. Some of which have been deciphered (like Hismaic from Thamudic E and Taymanitic from Thamudic A)
I have a question: What is the oldest decipherable writing, and what year does it date from?
2:11 cuneiform
@@shadowseeker97 There must be other ancient inscriptions that predate cuneiform.
@@rickriffel6246 Nothing we have deciphered yet.
Dude, did you film those clips at Eagle Falls in Washington?? I swear I recognize those rocks
Actually it was Forest Park in Portland
9:21 "But I don't know how."
"See you fucking idiot, now fuck off" just spits on the floor
Is the location for the first bit the WItch's Hut near Portland Oregon?
And if you imagine how much different languages we have today on this earth, who is that one who can deciphered it after only a thousand years but not hundred of thousand... but this show us that the world lives much longer then our imagination can catch up with those times in a such long back distance...and also shows us that every each civilization has her own culture language and schools...and whats more I believe that we are not the smartest civilization ever on this earth...
Some interesting guesses
About the intro and passing the info through centuries: there was that Polish manuscript (or Czech? doesn't really matter) and I actually catched myself reading it just like that, in 2022. Writing is some powerful shit.
Can anyone tell me where I can find the translations of each of the Hittite cuneiform symbols in order to be able to read a sentence. I know it hasn't an alphabet as such and it is read from left to right, but how can one put a sentence together if one doesn't know what each cuneiform means.
The difficulty with writing is: books and scrolls are very delicate materials using parchment to write on. And great care must be used to keep them from disrepair. Especially today with the "electronic" word and computers and hard drives. They too can be corrupted and reased. Which does happen intentionally at times usually after a people have been conquered.
Writing is so cool.
That spotty boy is very clever
Rongorongo stands a much better chance of being deciphered than the Harrapan text.
At least we have blocks of text for Rongorongo - for the Harappan text all there is what they'd call cartouches, if they were in Egypt - just a few symbols on tiles or tokens, possibly people's names. But possibly not.
Never loose hope, have you seen that linear Elamite, undeciphered for a century, has just been deciphered by a team led by french archeologist François DESSET ? more to come on the academic level this year i hope to validate this
lol I understand the text at 0:33 perfectly fine. I am a deciphering genius :D
How we forgot cuneiform has always puzzled me!
Who knows how English will change/be forgotten?
Or be replaced with something else
Cuneiform is a writing system. People stopped writing in cuneiform, and started using other symbols.
English is a language. That's a different thing - language and writing system are independent of each other. English could theoretically die out, as well, of course, but that works not in the same way as a writing system.
A lot of languages were deliberately stamped out when there was a change of religion. When the Roman empire adopted Christianity, infidels were forbidden to teach and the Church was given the power to destroy forbidden literature. By then, Etruscan, Egyptian and Babylonian were mainly used by the superseded religions, so they could no longer be taught. That happened to the Easter Island script in the 19th century: missionaries forbade its use, and the elites who could read it were taken off to other islands as slaves.
Even today, once missionaries ban the old songs and stories, the old language loses much of its relevance. The state boarding schools for natives of Canada and Australia eradicated language as well as culture and religion.
The Linear B records we have are principally accounts kept by store-keepers. They suggest that at the end of their use the island was facing defeat by invaders. Many societies at that time did without writing, and it seems the conquerors did not re-employ the old scribes.
The Indus Valley script seems to have gone out of use without any incursion from outside. One theory is that there was a change of religion, since the short inscriptions usually came with a drawing of some sort of animal or human, which could have been a totem or god.
@@faithlesshound5621 "When the Roman empire adopted Christianity, infidels were forbidden to teach and the Church was given the power to destroy forbidden literature. By then, Etruscan, Egyptian and Babylonian were mainly used by the superseded religions, so they could no longer be taught."
Sorry, that's so very much not true.
In the western half of the Roman Empire, Latin had already mostly supplanted the local languages in the cities by the time Christianity gained any traction there. In rural areas, languages like Punic and Gaulish survived until well after the fall of the Empire.
In Egypt, Egyptian (in its "modern" form Coptic) even became the language of the Egyptian church, and is still used for ceremonial purposes today.
Etruscan was basically dead in the 1st century CE. Christianity had absolutely nothing to do with that.
Babylonian (i.e. Akkadian) fell out of use even earlier, in pre-Christian times, and was replaced by Aramaic. It lingered on as a literary language into the 1st century CE, and knowledge of it among some scholars _maybe_ into the 3rd, but that's already pushing it. When Rome "adopted Christianity" (when exactly?), it had been dead already for centuries.
Not to mention the fact that Mesopotamia wasn't even _in_ the Roman Empire.
And that thing about "forbidden to teach" is not true, either. Certainly not on the level of learning a language. Neither Rome nor "the Church" (there are several...) was a modern nation-state that cares about suppressing languages.
@@varana Spoken languages are difficult to ban, but the teaching of scripts certainly can be forbidden, along with unapproved subjects like the "seven forbidden arts."
Etruscan may still have been in use by priests, who were in competition with the Christians in Italy. Although the tongue fell out of daily use, we know that the emperor Claudius wrote several works on Etruscan subjects, none of which have survived.
While Coptic survived, knowledge of Egyptian hieroglyphics did not. By then the hieroglyphic script had become immensely complicated, so prolonged study would have been necessary: I would imagine the teaching would have been accompanied by study of religious texts and done by priests.
Babylonian and Assyrian may have been in use in temples in Syria as well as Mesopotamia. Syria became part of the Roman empire. Mesopotamia would have gone through a Christian phase before the rise of Islam.
The ban on teaching began under Constantine and was reimposed on pain of death by Justinian, who closed down all pagan higher learning, including the schools of Athens and Alexandria. When he promulgated his new codes of law he also ordered the destruction of older legal texts, but we know some of those survived. The Ten Tables did not.
Destroying old books and killing scholars was not unique to Christian rulers: the Yellow Emperor did the same.
Therapist: Cowboy KhAnubis can't hurt you, they're not real
*Cowboy KhAnubis:*
4:05 not really, more of that it doesn’t have as much relation to the way it sounds. The character shui for example has roots in being related to the shape of a river, while Huo with fire. Since it is a logographic writing system, it’s natural writing had at least some relation to the idea/word it’s representing.
so cool
The publicity at the end was hella funny
is that the Witches Castle I see?
Hello from Portland
5:03 rongo(?) rongo reminds me of the Nazca Lines and the shapes
Maybe it's time to create some sort of contemporary rosetta stone? with google translator, raspberry pi and some clay-compatible 3d printer it shouldn't be too hard :)
Also quite creative self-made ad for skill share :)
I noted that 1960s Civil Air Patrol cadet shirt right off! Is it from someone you know?
Letter in archeological art with concept
nice video
9:08
The Voynich Manuscript I believe could have been written by a dyslexic person. It certainly would make sense, as older languages written by those kinds of people would be damn near indecipherable to our modern views.
Can hardly wait to see what future archeologists make of the poop emoji
Omg its the stone house in forest park
I’ve been watching history and linguistic videos on TH-cam for years and years and just found this channel. How. Why. Bad TH-cam algorithm bad.
Eyy! The Witch's Castle!
The font you're using makes me read "t" as "ł" (polish variation of "l")
For the tablets that were dug up illegally, removing the knowledge of their historical context, it might be possible to identify this context by having chemists analyze the mineral composition that the clay that they are made of and comparing it to the mineral composition of tablets for whom the historical context is known. Tablets with the same mineral composition would belong to the same historical context.
Is it possible to buy a hardcopy of the voynich manuscript?
No one has ever deciphered another language without a Rosetta Stone/equivalent or without a remnant of people still kind of speaking the language.
“Buy KhAnubis Merch”. Lmao! Will do, sir!
Ut-napishtim is the character's Akkadian name. In the Sumerian version, he is called Ziusudra.
Another important point is linguistic relatives. The Iberian script has been "deciphered" in the sense that we can read it...but we don't have any idea what it says.
We're not even sure what would be it's closest relative today or if it has any relatives at all.
Despite having over a thousand inscriptions the Iberian language remains very much a mistery
I haven't watched the video yet and pardon me if my question was answered already; how do we know how the words were pronounced?
wait hold on i think ive been to the place in the intro. is it in portland? In the city park thingy
The Witch's Castle in Forest Park (at least the grafitti-free parts of it I could find)
Nerdgasm overload!!
I see that we should make a big rock with some simple inscription in as many scripts and languages as possible and bury it somewhere for the future archeologists.
Nice
Ah yes, the renown corn dog recipe from the tomb of Oscar Meyer
I am just wandering, How did, for example Portugasse comunicated with Japanesse when they first arrived to do Trading ?
Portuguese traders had already had contact with China. Chinese was the lingua franca in East Asia. The Portuguese had been in India for a few decades before contact with Japan and had had plenty of time to absorb Chinese.
@@jeffreyestahl Nice, thanks 😀
Wait I wanna hear more about this precursor to the noah's arc story...
Might I also factor in abugidas(Devanagari) and logo-syllabaries(Egyptian hieroglyphs)? Also, I think logo-alphabets, logo-abjads, and logo-abigidas might exist.
Isn't Egyptian an abjad?
@@dizzydaisy909 A fact that, apparently, UsefulCharts, who I got it from, got wrong. Did anyone correct him on his video about the Latin alphabet's origins?
What the script at 0:20 called?