The Wegstr CNC prototyping mill
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2020
- How is it at making printed circuit boards? This is my first try, and it's not that bad. Here are some answers to the obvious questions:
* wegstr.com
* Did I say "speed vs time"?! I meant "quality vs time". Or maybe "price vs time". As they say, "Price, quality, time: choose two."
* Yes, I know about Othermill/Bantam. I wanted to try this one. Also, apparently Bantam doesn't do multi-point levelling.
* If you chemically etch, you deal with nasty chemicals. And even if you're fine with that, you're prone to over-etch, and then you still have to drill. This can "etch", and drill, and cut slots and various board shapes.
* It seems like it can do 8 mil trace-and-space but I wouldn't go lower than a space of 10 mil.
* I have no idea how long the bits last.
* I was conservative because I didn't know if the bits would break.
* The whole process is highly error-prone.
* It could take a day to make one board, as opposed to about a week for five from China. You can do solder mask. This is for one-off prototypes and tests. For anything more, go to China.
* I haven't done a double-sided board with it. I'm not sure how to fixture it for alignment. One video from wegstr shows that they milled out a negative for the board in the XY table, pop it in, and engrave out the bottom side. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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As many have observed, these machines are quite expensive for what you get. They’re aiming the product at folks that want a fairly trouble free straight-from-the-box experience. The wegstr TH-cam channel, regardless, is well worth the time. I find their videos very relaxing, and if you’re trying to figure out what’s involved in making your own circuit boards, quite informative.
I was about to say pretty much the same thing. It's a pretty standard cnc engraving machine, it isn't worth anywhere near 4000 USD. It seams sturdy, but you can get the same thing for about a tenth of that. Some people watch their videos and just want whatever they're using to achieve the same results out of the box.
Totally with you. I think its way to expensive too but the way how they make uv solder masks with it is pretty cool
YOU GOT IT!!! Happy for you!
Look forward to your next learning video... double sided....solder mask... silkscreen ... tinning.... maintaining sanity....
Nice video, Robert. what's the frame made of? Can you share the parameters you used for engraving and cutting the pcb? Thanks in advance.
. . . and THAT is how you pack sensitive equipment for overseas shipping!
"...and you call them PCBs despite the fact that they're obviously milled."
Should the call them, MCBs?
Good call haha. Guys I ordered a cheap mill. What's the best kind of spindle to get. I plan on replacing all the electronics and such and making a custom controller with the tmc5160 Bob boards and a teensy 4.1
Thank you very much for this video.
Was there ever an update on what happened to the LMARV-1 RISC-V computer? The last video was a year ago
This is NOT a rip-off, as this is an extremely precise, high quality machine. I have 3018 PRO mill from China, and I cannot get under 0.5mm (20 mil) traces and 0.7mm spaces as the play and vibrations are so high that finer traces are eaten away by mill bit. And V-bit is impossible to use as the auto-leveling of free software does not work (I have to find such software yet, and I have tried many), so my only option is to use c-bit. I am a freelance electronics engineer, and I often need to quickly make some test pcb, some converter or adapter, and also to check if components fit their places in mechanics and housing. I cannot wait for 1-2 weeks every time I want to check that things fit. When I save up enough money, I will definitely buy exactly this model. That being said, I am a professional, milling a prototype pcb even several times a week, so this investment pays for itself rather quickly. Of course, for hobbyists who need only a couple of PCBs per year, this is an overkill.
Hi Andris, I use the same CNC machine (CNC 3018) and I can get 0.1mm precision as I use a flex shaft motor , so all the vibrations are gone. My only problem is the noise from this 200W, 20,000 rpm flex shaft motor.
These used to be under Euros 600 in 2015. For some reason the units are now euro 3600. I guess that's why you only see wegstr posted videos. They could have been the prusa of the cnc world. but now there are other more affordable options.
$4,000 for a handful of linear rails, a few NEMA 17 stepper motors, and a low-grade spindle without an ER 11 collet is absolutely bonkers.
funny ,but 3018 CNC from ebay with ER11 collet and bigger spindle for 300$ can do even more than that :)
@@goodwill7643 tell me about it! I started with a 3018. You need to upgrade kind of a lot to get it to compete against this, but that is primarily due to the linear rails as opposed to linear rods. The 3018 has a lot of play in the z axis.
However, for this price, you could buy the best 3d printer on the market, a cheap aluminum extrusion cnc, upgrade it with linear rails, use ball screws if you want, and limit switches, and you'd still have $2800
@@goodwill7643 I mean by comparison, for this price, you could get a servo controlled grizzly which can cut pcbs all the way up to steel. For this price you could buy a tormach. Its crazy what they are charging for this.
@@honkhonk165 I have 3018 and I do PCB milling and front panel cutouts without any upgrades.
About price I completely agree, for that it is pure marketing.
USA Pocket NC 5 axis CNC just USD 6000. China 5 axis CNC just USD 3000. This 3 axis is not a good deal
Hi Robert,
Can you please post a video regarding file conversion from gerber to toolpaths in cut2d desktop. If you use other method please post a video regarding that.
Thanks in advance.
thanks for posting this!!!
The spindle sounds terrible, was that the audio or does it sound like a lot of chatter in person? How big was that cutout bit, looked like 1/8"? Also it looks like the Z uses a regular fine pitched all thread and not a lead screw. Are the other 2 axis like this? How are they constrained? It doesn't look like it has linear rails.
Some good questions there! I think! Since it probes the surface, a regular threaded screw is probably ok, it only cuts a fraction of a mm when making a pcb and for cutting the pcb out of the panel the leadscrew is probably nor necessary, a nicely cut threaded rod is probably ok. Would struggle to get a fine pitch trapezoidal thread anyway.
Comments here are so Informative . Great tips.
seems cool but for the price i'd go with chemical etching boards. much cheaper to do and on anything but the smallest of boards like what you just did, I think etching say a 2 inch x 2 inch board would be much faster.
Hi Robert, It's a shame they didn't use a collet in the spindle. A grub screw in the spindle seems like a bad idea but that's just me. 1 mil of runout isn't bad, though. 4K is a bit too rich for me even though I'd love to have one. Thanks for the vid!
1 thou runout on a pcb milling machine is bad, on a $4k machine it’s terrible. Just checked my box store Dremel, less than 0.5 thou. Add a cheap collet and it’s up to about 1 thou on the bit shank. I totally agree that a grub screw is a shame. As a package, software, integrated touch probe, overall presentation seems quite a nice pcb making tool. For it’s intended purpose I suppose the grub screw is good enough, just don’t buy 3mm bits by mistake.
@@klave8511 0.5 thou on a dremel ? Ok then ... you should have bought a lottery ticket in the same store.
At any rate, there is a good reason for the grub screw. Mounting a spring tensioned bit in the holder for Soldermask milling. You can view the method on their channel. Why use a collet anyway when you have a machine that is only supposed to use 3.175 mm shank bits?
As for the price, yes, a big shame I agree.
When drilling holes, what stops the drill damaging the platform. Is there a sacrificial board under the PCB, or is the PCB supported so there is a space below it?
Yes, there is a sacrificial layer underneath.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
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@@weiaungweiaung there are some advantages of supporting the PCB at its edges, thus doing away for the need to have a sacrifice board underneath. The disadvantage is the risk that the PCB will flex, degrading the accuracy of the drilling and cutting. With thick PCBs it is possible to use an unsupported board, particularly if the edges are well clamped.
Ideally we either need a self healing sacrifice board, or low cost sacrifice boards that are already flat. The material for such boards, should minimise the damage to drill bits.
when are new RISV LMEARV-1 videos coming?
Hi guys. And I already wanted to order this cnc router. Many thanks to the author of the video and everyone who commented on this video, very helpful.
Who can recommend a machine that is cheaper with same quality or better for the same price? Perhaps someone has real experience. Thank You
I use a Genmitsu PROVer v2 for this purpose. Quality is a function of the feed rate mostly. The auto-levelling can be done with Candle Grbl sender.
Is there are market to provide custom PCBs quickly in the USA? I just got my batch of PCBs from China, took two weeks and the design changed 3 times since then.
I just ordered another batch of 50 of the latest design, and now I wait another two weeks. The first batch just goes into the trash. I use toner transfer and etch, and while this works good..I have to print multiples to get a good one off the laser printer and hope I don't screw it up with the iron. I've seen lot of videos people making cnc circuit boards, and their results are about as hit-and-miss. It can't really do small smt components reliable like the production machines can do. I think you still need to etch which can do molecule level work.
Hallo Robert,
? 4000 $? WOOWWwww
Sorry, but that is a LOT of money for such a CNC machine!
it may take a little more effort to get the same -
but give me my Techlifer 3018 cnc for 150 €
I am a beginner but believe it can be done with that too.
Healthy and Friendly Greetings from the Netherlands!
Rob
Interesting, thanks for the review.
Question, what are they using for linear movement? Those don't look like normal rails.
Looks like threaded rod, aluminum, and nylon or teflon. Nothing fancy. Maybe a preloaded nut for eliminating backlash.
Thanks. Given the looks and checking this CNC price I was wondering if it was something super fancy.
@@RobertBaruch Dear Mr. Baruch - I'm quite impressed with what you do - I'm a tech enthusiast and I want to learn certain things from you - of course I'm ready to pay remuneration if it is within my budget. Please share your email id. Alternatively, I can share mine. Please let me know ...
@@RobertBaruch Is there anything holding the bed down to the extrusions other than just the lead screw/nut? Maybe the upward forces are not strong?
@@RobertBaruch Is there anything holding the bed down to the extrusions other than just the lead screw/nut?
Hi Good evening, Im kalai. 3:58 in this timeline I noticed that the leadscrew of X and Y axis. Is they covered using aluminum tubes? Under the BED is there any slots ? How did they make motion on X and Y axis. Can you explain if you have a time?. Thanks and regards, KALAI
It's a very nice looking machine, but for the price, the tool mount (grub screw) is very, very disappointing.
There is actually a good reason for that ... Milling soldermask (after it is applied to the whole board) is done by mounting the engraving bit loose in the tool mount (with a spring at the top pushing the engraving bit down). The grub screw serves as a stop then to prevent the tool from falling out (not to actually fix the tool in place). This way the engraving tool can mill the soldermask off the copper without milling away the copper using the spring to put just the right amount of down force on the bit.
Doing this with any other tool mount option would be hard. In reality given that all tools used by this machine will have 1/8th (or 3.175mm) shanks the grub screw is quite ok.
@@xConundrumx he is mounting the MILLING TOOL with the grub screw. I don't care that it supports a spring loaded tool. It needs to be able to grab the tools properly, and a grub screw is absolutely terrible.
@@zaprodk Alright, no need to yell.
For the price it should at least have a better spindle with ER collets. And idk for $4000 Id build my own that would out class this.
Actually the collet makes sense. You don't see it in this video but one thing you can do with this collet mechanism is is spring load the tool. What this means is that the tool is able to move up and down in the collet (which you cannot do with ER collets). Why would you want this, well best go look at their youtube channel for an example but with the engraver spring loaded in the collet you can 'scrape' off UV photo resist solder mask from the pads. Essentially you put some UV hardening solder mask over the entire board (with a silk screen or such to get it nice and even), harden it out, then remove the mask from the pads where you need solder to go. Thanks to the spring loaded tool you can do that without scraping of the copper underneath.
But you are right about the price. It is alas a bit on the high side. And for that cost you can indeed get better bang for your buck. Personally I would go with one of those blue anodized 1310 CNC's (as they have real linear rails) and an S4225 24k or higher BLDC spindle (ER8 collet with low runout). Would have smaller work area but in my case that would be enough for PCB prototypes. For solder mask you can always use dry film solder mask and a mask for the solder pads while UV curing that (pretty tricky to do right with solder mask from a tube).
absolutely.
my diy 200 dollar cnc almost out class this
@@TnInventor I would say a video is in order then.
@@xConundrumx i am already on it
What material used in housing body. Is it alluminium ??
What is the mill that you are using?
What if that autolevel contintuity check fails? (crocodile clip comes loose) Is there any safety or it will bang on the material?
It will not lower more than 10mm. But also, it detects the increased current in the motor and stops. But at that point, you've ruined your bit and your material.
@@RobertBaruch Great thanks! Looking forward to see more vids on how this fits into your workflow. ;)
@@marios2liquid it should be absolutely possible to combine the autolevelling principle in the new Creality Ender 3D printer with this machine. Putting the complete spindle motor onto a strain gauge and measuring the impact force should allow for an immediate feedback on the fly...
what kind of rails and rails protection are these? never seen those
I am more curious about the the stepper how it moving thins because no threaded rod or timing belt is shown can anybody tell me about this confusion ?
Is this grbl compatible?
I mean, who doesn't want to have a CNC router... but I will stick with toner-transfer for my quick-n-dirty pcbs. Much less dust, faster, cleaner, ...
I just wonder why they could not have done the auto-level directly through the motor spindle without that awkward crocodile clip. The tool and spindle are conductive and the spindle is definitely going through a metal ball bearing, hence it should be conductive all the way.
Many people have a cnc router like this.... a 3D printer. Attach a low grade motor with drill holder and you're there.
Judging by Wegstr's youtube videos I thought it would make better PCBs than my homemade cnc mill. I see now that's not the case. It has the same results as mine along with the problems mine has as well as a price tag about 5 times what mine cost.
I'm looking for a similar result with a price under 3k$ USD... Do you have any clue or example? I just want to be able to do 8-10mil, QFP and 0603 SMD.
@@GhostRaider38 Well, I just have a cheap Chinese CNC mill I bought a couple of years ago. I've changed a good bit of the electronics parts and added some limit switches but the frame is pretty much stock. I think I paid ~$900 US for it, but I'm sure they're cheaper now. It doesn't have perfect runout but I was able to get it pretty accurate. Really the biggest thing I've noticed that helped was getting higher quality bits. I was originally using some cheap 30 degree v-bit engraving bits, which are incredibly fragile, dull easily, and seem to tear through the copper foil more than cut it. Using a fluted v-bit has helped a lot.
Factory machines are becoming personal machines
can you do wood as well on the cnc mill
th-cam.com/video/9D_1yoU9ncw/w-d-xo.html
Who is their target audience? I don't know how anyone could justify the price.
Pcb engineers
Saves them a ton of not only money but time waiting on a prototype pcb to be manufactured and shipped only to realize there was an error, which means another round of payments and waiting on shipping. This allows a pcb designer to get all the bugs and issues out of the way so there is less chance you will have problems with your first run prototypes from a pro manufacturer. Look at the cost of pro grade 3D printers, same idea
Universities perhaps also. Or startups with fast turnaround time...
@@estoniaman you could do the exact same job with a 200$ machine. 500 max (to not be rough around the edges). The price is plain CRAZY
Yes exactly! The audience who could use this is hobbyists, who can't justify the price, with the professionals not even giving it a second look, so who is buying it? Schools? Can this thing even do qfn or bga, which seems to be becoming the new standard? Good luck doing a 6mill trace with this lol. Amazing but worthless machine.
$4000 is way too much. I got a used 3020t from ebay for $300. Use emc2 with eagle pcb software. There is the surface calibration for it and works like a champ. Spent another $100 on limit switches, pcb boards, specialized drill bit. My only grief is that one of the driver died and ended up ordering a whole set of drivers from alibaba but now I got spares.
I'm building one this week and putting all custom electronics and controller on it. What do you use. I'd rather a simple option than build a custom controller. Any help is appreciated
@Sang Kang cool thank you. I was thinking long term that I might make one out of a teensy 4.1 and 5160 Bob boards. I have a bunch just sitting on my hoarde of components we all have hahaha
For that money you could have a lifetime supply of one off prototypes made in China. And, a lot less work.
I read a lot of comments about these machines being expensive. Our latest one arrives in a few weeks for a cool £130,000. (and I get to break it :)
where can I get myself a rob robot?
I am assuming that mils is US for Millions of an inch?
Because mils is also another word for Millimetres.
It's an unfortunate US term, for a milli-inch (0.001 inches)
@@RobertBaruch Thank you for clearing that up for me.
Price?
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Love from India❤️❤️
It comes very well packed... Costs 3000euros....😳😳😱.
yeah, is an expensive machine but is an affordable machine for those can't or doesn't know how to build a good cnc for pcb, to me is very expensive for what you get.
For a business or self-employed individual, that's a justifyable price.
Sure... if it was actually in any way usefull to anyone but a hobyist who isnt doing high density designs lol
for that money you can buy a 20W fiber laser, it will zap copper from the board optically
you could have saved me 12 min of my life and stated the $4000 price first.
you can buy similar machines on aliexpress for a couple hundred.
search 3018 engraver.
make sure to get spiral engraving bits, the regular ones constantly break.
for bits search "spiral engraving bit 0.1mm"
@@LittleRainGamesAliexpress machines are not suitable tp make sad pcbs like this machine
@@LittleRainGames As someone with a stupid amount of experience in making PCBs using various techniques AND has perfected their own PCB fabrication line at home (from photoresist lamination to through-hole plated), I can tell you that the ONLY thing that makes this machine special is the bit. You are right that a cheap Chinese CNC is able to do work to this quality, BUT if your engraving bit is cheap, the resultant work is rough and completely unusable. If you want these results, its worth buying the Wegstr engraving bit....
Was that an 8 mil trace and 1 mil run-out?
The smallest trace ended up at around 4 mil. The key limiting factor is the space, which came out at 10 mil or so. I'm not making RF boards here, so the actual sizes don't matter, as long as I can get the paths accurate enough, there should be no broken traces. And yeah, 1 mil runout. Of course, I have no idea how inaccurate it is when you add the vibration of the machine, but it seems to have worked out okay.
It must have some run-out because normally those square pinheaders fit snugly in 0,9mm holes.
@@zaprodk I measured the holes at around 0.94mm. The pins are 0.64mm on a side, so 0.90mm diagonal. That isn't a snug fit for sure, but I'll take it.
@@RobertBaruch what I meant is that when I drill a 0.8 hole it's too small and when I drill a 0.9mm hole it's a nice snug fit.
@@zaprodk Oh, I see. I didn't mention it in the video, but I later changed the 0.8mm holes to 0.9mm holes. Yes, the pins didn't fit in the 0.8mm holes, which is why I had to change it!
11:50 lol
That thing is insanely expensive
Gastei 30 dolares em pcbs e fui taxado em 200 reais, imagine uma dessas, daria pra comprar uma casa aqui nessa dsgrç de brasil
Why didn't you buy a vacuum cleaner . I know that the manufacturer has it.
I can do all this with my $200 3018 cnc
You can't find an engraving cnc that has
Well, thanks for exposing it...that machine is pretty meh...
For less money you can have a OB c-beam or the minimill with a 60000 rpm spindle ( much better finishing ) stronger stepper motors( faster ), ballscrew and maybe even linear rails ( precision ). Much faster, stronger and really good finishing for less money. Swap the spindle on said machine and you can also do some aluminum.
too expensive for PCB
its damn to expensive...~3600Euros, wtf!!
this machine is ridiculous expensive. it takes a lot of time to make a pcb, is messy, fiberglass all over the place (i would not like that dust to go in to my lungs).
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Jeez that thing is expensive! For a fraction of that money you could very easily self build something many many times better. Look at those weedy motors! Nope, sorry but that machine is a rip off.
asahahahahhahahAHAHAHAHAHH 3000€ A TOY! THE INTERNET END ...
Not worth the money though
China CNC costs 200$, and knows even more. Why pay 6000$ here?
Those Chinese machines on eBay and Amazon don’t work at all unless you have a degree in electrical engineering. They also have absolutely no support at all. Not worth all the stress and aggravation. It’s worth spending another $4k.
The answer is accuracy