Off Meta VS Troll Pick - What's The Difference? | League Of Legends
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 พ.ค. 2023
- Lately there's been a lot of discussion over what the difference is between a genius off meta strategy and a blatant intent feeding troll pick. Today I wanted to give my own thoughts on what distinguishes the two!
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#LoL #Meta #OffMeta - เกม
How appropriate this dropped less than an hour after Baus posted an AP Irelia video
I mean after watching that video, that build actually works. But it’s pretty reliant on getting early Cs leads and winning lane
@@thiccerthanthiccsilver4045 Irelia is so broken she can build support items and do crazy damage.
Babus is a troll, stop worshiping him.
@@thiccerthanthiccsilver4045Every build works when you have a CS lead and win lane
The problem Is not the build honestly, Riot even had to nerf It because It was too powerful... It's babus's playstile that doesn't fit AP irelia at all
@@alecoppeac his play-style is so strong that he basically climbed to challenger with it on multiple different characters. He could probably get challenger ap irelia kinda easily.
The difference is that you have more fun than the enemy team when you pick off meta, bc they don't now how to respond. Whereas when you troll pick, you have more fun than your tean
I'm a little saddened by the lack of mention of how Mathematically Correct Sett and AP Shyvana both made the transition from "Off Meta" to to getting to the point that if you _didn't_ use those builds you were considered to be soft-inting.
As the cyle goes....
That's probably because it's not nearly their most used builds and I don't think it's their best builds either
@@zsomborszigeti6797AP shyvana was pretty much her exclusive build for the better part of a year until Riot nerfed it. And it took quite a while to catch on before that.
I hate how they turned one of my favourite bruisers into yet another fucking burst mage
This is why you should just play blind pick where you have better chances on tank nami jungle than on a normal pick.
Problem with blind pick is that you can end up with two top laners and no bot leaving support to 1v2 bot lane or forcing jungle to play adc (this happened to me just yesterday)
@@takimotochi Back in the day, some champs like Maokai could easily hold a lane by themselves against 2 people. All they need is range, some level of wave-clear and sustatin. OG Maokai had that.
I once had a tank Nami jungle in like season 6 and they carried the game. Probably had like a 90% bubble rate
@@Prince_Smugarina Yeah but it's unfun if that wasn't how you expected to be playing
@Dominic Guye I mean it was pretty funny seeing the exasperated texts from Pantheon and Ezreal who were my lane opponents. Maokai's saplings were better than Shaco's Jack's XD
Off meta makes the game more fun tbh. I like seeing if something works or not.
I feel like most people like the concept of off meta picks. However there are some, like this video suggest, different interpretations of what is seen as 'meta' is in the eye of the beholder. A lot of people just copy pro play and believe THAT is the meta that should be followed religiously. However I think some of the most fun pro teams to watch are the ones who play their own style and pocket pick champs to play their own style. Remember g2 flexing pyke in all lanes? Super awesome to see that innovation
Honestly.
@@onetakehoovie5955 there is also another thing: some people do not like it when others hold them back for the sake of experimenting with a build that may or may not work. your opponents might be caught off guard by an off meta strategy, but so will your team unless they know you. league is a team game, and refusing to play with the team is a reportable offense. in other word, only go off meta if your team knows it and consents to it
I too enjoy getting railed for 5 games in a row just to get carried and pretend it was the offmeta pick that worked.
@@Underworlder5 while it is a team game you have to remember the other part of that. It’s a game, as long as they are taking part and doing something to help push to a winning state whatever they play or build is irrelevant. If it’s not rank it should be expected to have fun and just wanna play the game, rather then out just want to win. It’s like play uno vs poker.
Difference between off-meta and troll pick:
If you play yuumi jungle and win, it's off-meta.
If you play yuumi jungle and feed, it's troll pick.
I would like a "The Most Meta champs" vid, where you explore the champions who have been Meta a lot of times since they were released/updated
I mean... we have "Why everyone plays" which does this exactly for champs that are overall played a lot or even meta for longer periods of time
He did "Always Strong Champions" which might be what you're looking for
Thats "why everyone plays"
EZREAL EZREAL EZREAL EZREAL
*every ADC nervously sweating*
I think Shaco is a troll pick since the only thing he does is being a troll. (and he is pretty good at it)
yeah, when I started playing I am absolutely terrified by him. But once I solokilled a Shaco with Zyra support I started to see how weak he actually is, so yeah, he is weak and can only play with your mind to get ahead.
@@duongle1606 low elo try to kill the real shaco and ignore the clone challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Trundle in shambles
He and Temo are the main reason for Radar existing, because otherwise you can easily feed them into ultimate killers. Honestly, I'm planning to start playing Shaco to learn how to stealth properly, because most of my Jungles are either tanks or Warrior on driving a car to enemies face.
I'll just say what I tell my friends whenever they get spooked by whatever latest nonsense I was cooking in Champion Select: "There is a method to my madness."
Granted I almost exclusively play Top Lane and Support, which IMO are the roles that grant the most potential for pushing against the boundaries of what can or cannot work:
Support because there it largely boils down to "How well can this Champion play around having an ally and two enemies around?" and "How well can you do with them without having minions or monsters for Gold income?"
Top Lane because it's Top Lane.
mid lane is a things too play around team play supp as mid is crazy fun with friends or some caster unexpected like jhin or jax
As someone who currently sits at 220 LP Master playing only full support Ivern mid. People overestimates how much the meta matters.
The most important part of climbing and getting better is to know your champion. I see people switching champions because they feel as if their champion is bad in the meta. But even if that’s true, it will not make you a better player if you go and learn a new champion. You won’t get higher rank just because you play a meta pick
Video/Series suggestion:
Compare Champions(and maybe also items) to their Wild Rift version if there are any differences,then give your opinion on which version is better (or if a mixture between both would be better and what would that mixture be?)
I feel like this would be very interesting as some champions (and items) are VERY different in Wild Rift like Karma,while some others have just a few changes but those changes are already really significant like Vi.
(Btw i suggest not analyzing champions like Zeri or Aurelion Sol in this series since their Wild Rift version is their Pc version pre-rework)
How would you judge betterness across these very different games?
@@xdkillfor34akathetroll30 By analyzing the champion’s weaknesses and seeing which version of the champion addresses those champions the best?
Vi has a hard time staying on top of enemies after her initial engage,Wild Rift fixes that issue by giving her a rewarding shield + speed up mechanic.
Im a only wr player but i still love and enjoy vars content, the comperision between the games would definitly be interesting, like the vi, teemo, lee sin diffrences.
To me the line between Off Meta and Troll is simple.
For it to be not trolling the pick must have a gameplan or strategy to succeed. I love going Yorick Jungle for example because he has high objective damage allowing him to solo baron, being the jungler gives him a lot of flexibility on where to push towers and he provides good utility in a gank. Other junglers are stronger earlier and have less conditional DPS than Yorick but Yorick has certain attributes to make him competitive.
NAh. The difference is mostly flex que vs solo que. People will tell you to die no matter WHAT you pick if its not what they want you to pick and then they will int all game long. Makes games unplayable no matter HOW good you or the build is. Its really stupid and toxic and destroys the game balance.
Sure it would be NICE if you could go double cc tanks bot with sunfires and such and crush the senna+samira bot lane by just unaliving them through cc. But your top WILL lock in ashe vs a malphite, your mid WILL never roam bot, and your jg will lose rift and dragons BECAUSE your top and mid are bad/losers and you cannot carry through that.
The fact is. People will legit download poro fessor just so it can tell them that they are gonna lose because off meta etc. It will tilt them so hard now that its a popular app. Its gonna base its math on the 30 people in the world who went locked fizz, and lost, and be like, yeah your gonna lose, its fizz fault, flame him run it down etc. Even if for some reason rito buffs fizz passive to give 10% heal and shield power for every 100 ap and made his E a stun on anyone under R. They would STILL find a way to complain.
Forgot to mention that a secondary, almost parasitic category is the counter-meta. Where there's the objective meta, which is the most generally effective/efficient.
And then the counter-meta is what works best to counter that meta, despite not generally being as strong.
i think this is the definition of meta no ? beeing efficient in most case ?
@@choika5027 Well, it depends on how you define "efficient."
Yuumi mid might be an OP counterpick but is it worth it learning Yuumi mod for one matchup?
@choika5027 in one sense you could consider it part of that, but I think it's separate as it's only meta if it's faced with the meta pick, as if you pick the counter first then the enemy team fails to pick the meta pick... its no longer meta
@@the_last_ballad You are confusing "meta" and "good in this particular game".
And unless that one matchup that yuumi mid counters is exceptionally popular, yuumi mid almost certainly wouldn't tend to be the go-to counter pick, let alone be part of the counter meta.
But, if the meta leans incredibly hard into physical damage, with AP carries (rightly or wrongly) being seen as troll picks, then you will see a bunch of rammus and malphites, even before what they counter are picked, because they counter what is seen as the best choices - thus even just forcing some of them to not pick those best choices is a win.
That's a type of thing that is meant by counter meta.
Ornn Support main here, I'm glad off-meta is a thing within the community. These players are often the players that figure out new tricks within the game which then become the meta. Many of the things that people can do like a cheater recall or a fake flash once started as a weird thing to do. Now they are the sickest plays you can pull off and are ways to gain advantages within your game.
I randomly decided to do support shen and my team was so confused. We won our lane and did really well. But my team fed the lead away at the end of the game. But the support shen worked.
The question is not if it works but if it works better than the competition and in what circumstances.
In low elo where players make a ton of spacing errors and the enemy support also doesn't properly respond a ornn or shen support can absolutely work, it also won't matter if a pyke/rell/leona/naut etc. would have been better because it works "well enough".
But in higher elo? Questionable.
wait what's a fake flash
@@k9tirion927 you say this, but in higher elo people have much better matchup knowledge about meta picks, but lack just as much knowledge about off-meta ones as a silver player does. they do play thousands of games versus meta picks after all. in low elo, experience is spotty when it comes to matchup knowledge, so trying to use off-meta to circumvent the matchup knowledge is less effective against silver players than, say, a diamond single role.
take illaoi top as an example - every top laner worth their salt knows that illaoi's main trading tool is her E. she gets dumpstered by other melees top lane if she whiffs it.
but taric top? even high elo players lack experience in this matchup, as they literally never get to play against it until just now. taric Q + passive can duel a surprising amount of people until he's out of mana, but will a high elo player abuse this? a low elo player won't care, won't adjust their strategy to the matchup, but a high elo player climbed BECAUSE of having that matchup knowledge.
@@k9tirion927I totally disagree, there is a YT channel where you can find examples of a lot ofplayers that hVe climbed to master, grandmaster or Challenger with off-meta picks, some of them like Jhin top being tremendously good, or Alistar top having an impressive level 2 compared to the actual top laners, also remember you that Tank Ekko used to be the meta build some time ago, also the off-meta Blue build for Ezreal used to dominate the competitive scene and was a random build from a gold player.
As an AP kaisa one trick i appreciate this subject very much Vars. The stigma related to anything off meta being troll by default causes my champ to be banned alot. If i dont go 10/0 im usually the cause for anything that goes wrong. "Dont play kaisa mid youre not faker" is a big one
Im fairly profficient at the pick, and rarely lose lane. My late game is stellar, and i know which matchups not to pick her into. It would however just be nice to play a few games without needng to defend my selection/mute teamates.
@Ryan Kern I've been thinking of using ap kaisa, so I'm curious what picks is bad against?
Same i played her top a lot, carrying most of my games yet people are always spamming ff coz they want a brainless frontliner
@@aries6546 some hard matchups i wont pick her into are yone, and viktor/ori because she cant lane vz them. I play kassadin into mages, renekton into yone, and ban yas. Ashe mid is good vs malzahar too. As for build, look up Snipyoce, hes higher elo than i am. :)
Off meta builds and playstyles are probably the sole reason I haven't quit League many years ago. There is just something magical about being able to successfully theory craft new working builds, picks and playstyles. I feel like my raw knowledge of how different champs, items and runes work and interact got me into a far higher rank than where I should reasonably be based on my mechanical skill and in-game knowledge. In some cases, this lead to me actively abusing op strats that wouldn't become meta until months, in the case of the Manamune ADC meta, until years later. The interesting thing about low and mid elos is that you can easily mop the floor with someone who's much better than you, if you play something which you know better than the back of your hand, but your opponent barely has an idea how to play as or against.
This was the case for most of S11-12 and what I feel was the reason behind the success of all the mages building enchanter to climb. People would one-trick moonstone lillia, zyra, kayle, twitch or morg into masters just off the knowledge that their sustain would be able to match a regular enchanter’s, while their kit’s base stats could still deal considerable damage.
manamune got rework that why it can be build on adc that also why it was useless to build it before waste of mony on the role who need the most
@@choika5027 The manamune ADC meta was at it's hottest in 2020 spring-summer, before the item overhaul during the pre-season in November.
@@Aguardiente man I miss moonstone Lillia even when I usually build liandry's for faster clearing/splitpush(I usually play Lillia if I don't get support)
While you can do rylai's + helia + font of line rune, it is not as good as you need 2 items and your teamates need to hit the enemies and you need to take font of line
One of my favorite off meta builds I ever used was Jungle Syndra with Spirit of the Spectral Wraith (a looooooong time ago). I discovered it by accident after a miscommunication caused our team to have two mids and no jungle. All of her abilities do AOE damage and it turns out that a level 3 Syndra with double buff coming out of the brush kills literally any top laner.
There are no troll picks. Just troll players!
this
I agree, i also think that every champion can work in 97% of situations if the player knows how to USE the build.
This is one of the reasons I generally prefer 1v1 games over team games (Still love team games, though). Thing is, team based games are inherently hostile to experimentation: you're not only gambling your own wins on an unproven idea, but your entire team's wins as well. Your team is probably not interested in the results of the experiment you've forced them into and would rather you downloaded your build off the internet like everybody else. In something like a fighting game I can lab it out, figure out *why* what I'm doing doesn't work without breaking the game's social contract, not so much in League.
And that's why Co-Op vs AI is pretty nice. Even though it's easy, you can still get an idea of whether a build works well or poorly, all while you don't have to worry about being flamed. Most people find it boring though.
@@Pteriidae It's too bad that Riot, the small indie company it is, doesn't have the budget to figure out how to make a bot jungle.
@@kevingriffith6011 The company? They can, bots jungle in Wild Rift. Currently pulling bots through the jungle on PC is possible but naturally, they do not jungle. There are news of Riot wanting to improve AI for game modes so fingers crossed that they will improve Co-Op bots once that happens.
@@Pteriidae Yeah. It's pretty jarring that in the most accessible game mode for new players the bots still play 2-1-2, so right off the bat they're teaching players wrong. Riot is pushing for the strictest adherence to the meta roles everywhere else.
Hell, having a bot jungler would mean that it might actually be worth warding in vs AI, so that's a double win for teaching new players the way the game is meant to be played.
@@kevingriffith6011 Even before that right off the bat League doesn't teach new players... any of the basics, really. I won't even get started on the tutorial to the game itself and from then on you're thrown into the game, expected to, what, learn everything on your own? It is a shame, really, from game fundamentals to skin showcases, it almost feels like they rely on outside sources to do that job for them. The fact that the client itself doesn't have the information you have to search for on a _fan_ wiki is bizarre.
DUDE it’s so hype seeing marss react to your smash content! Your doing great stuff man keep it up!!
3:16 the change to supports wasn't about an ally nearby (that was far longer the case, longer than I play lol), but about objective bounties being worth less with more than one support item in a team and cs value reduction
Yeah, I was wondering about that. That makes sense because, I remember when this was changed but not that other one (playing since mid-2021).
the question is why this reaction from riot ? ok it break the way they design top lane why don't adapte around the way comunity play ? why changes should only come from then ?
@@choika5027 because it is not interesting for one of the players and shows how bad toplane actually was. I guess they could've changed objectives on toplane and make it worth laning, but this was an easier fix
Love the video, ever since the new item changes were revealed I’ve been thinking about trying attack speed neeko again and while my own skill needs to improve, it’s good to know that it at least checks a few boxes in terms of being off meta, but not troll! Plus I tried it on pbe and it’s quite fun
Crit neeko is a very good build into the right match ups -a neeko main
I think it should work completely fine! with all the ap ratios, you can buff your abilities and autos equally, and while finding the balance of ap and ad/on hit items might take time, the different on hit items with ap scalings means good build diversity and thus flexibility.
Really love the breakdown, also great shoutout to Chimes
Old AP Pantheon or Old AD Viktor were my premiere Off Meta strats, especially Pantheon.
Just remembering oneshotting people on spawn with the ultimate, brings a smile to my face.
good thing that they were reworked, that sounds disgusting
first off meta strats back in 2015 blitz full ap + nauti bruiser both farming of course
Hey Vars! Been a fan for a long time. Question: what are your thoughts on wild rift as a game? I play smash competitively as well, and explaining it to my friends, I say that PC league is "Melee" and Wild Rift is "Ultimate" (when it comes to mechanics and depth)
I love taking sups and put them in carry roles. The satisfaction of a ap on hit thresh soloing two actual carrys. Priceless
I'd like to give Riot a bit of credit for this. Off-meta picks are one of the things that make League such a fun game, and they are only possible because Riot allows them. AP Ezreal is a personal favorite of mine, completely changing his play-style from a spammy mobile poker with good dps, to a high-burst nuker. If Ez had no AP ratios, this would obviously not be possible.
The issue arises when an "off-meta" build becomes more effective than the "normal" build. For example, Varus' "normal" build would be on-hit ADC build, but recently, he's been outclassed by both his lethality and AP builds recently, the first because poking you for half your health from 8 screens away is pretty strong, and the second because why would I on-hit someone if I can just root them and one-shot them? If you didn't notice, I dislike (current) AP Varus because it's always been a fun and rare gimmick of his, which was historically effective into tank-heavy teams, but was utterly outclassed by his other builds against conventional/not especially tanky teams. I've recently seen AP Varus played into squishy teams, but be far more effective than either of his other builds could even hope to be, because he is able to delete anyone from the map in one combo with Nashor's Tooth + Riftmaker. The same idea applies to when an item is so broken that it outperforms all other items even on champions who it, by all rights, shouldn't be good on. Blue Kayn with Goredrinker, Talon with Goredrinker, and Irelia with ... also Goredrinker come to mind. Fortunately, when an item is too strong, just nerfing the item generally suffices. When an off-meta build becomes oppressive, it's not as simple, because any direct nerf to the champion would also nerf their other builds, and buffing other parts of the kit to counteract the nerf to the oppressive off-meta build may render the champion too strong.
Regarding thebausffs, I don't think you've brought attention to why his strategy works. If you watch his stream, he does the 'inting sion' strategy on a whole suite of champions. He will intentionally head toplane with 20% hp on rammus to die, or rush behind enemy lines on quinn to proxy only to get hunted down by the enemy jungler. Both strategies work because in both cases he is winning economically (levels, gold, cs etc). In the first, he denies the enemy platings and he has a faster way to get to lane (tp, Powerball, etc) while in the latter giving 300 gold and a solokill of experience to the enemy jungler isn't as impactful as screwing over their tempo by forcing them to chase you for a minute. Not to mention that he gains gold and experience from minions which rival or surpass that gold gained by the enemy. My point is that thebausffs's strategy shows that league is far from solved, and that a viable method of playing is focusing on resource management . The moment you exclusively fixate on k/d, broken champions or items, or anything else you fail to grasp the complexity of league as a whole.
Ornn jungle is sleeper amazing. You can get soooooo many unique timings by never having to back to buy items. Very fun.
I dont know how things are on PC, but in wild rift there are lot of player in chalenger who in premade teams. Because of it the tank and enchanter builds from the top players may not be the best for soloQ. The youtuber Broken Suport makes lots of videos explaning it.
I'm a support main, and I love experimenting. If something has cc, I see if it can work as support. It's more fun than playing the same 5 supports for every game. Sure I suck and lose a lot, but then I get games where somehow Evelyn support wins lane.
I think there's a master Evelynn support player who carry games by roaming after 6.
I mainly play support too because I can't cs(it is so stressful, especially when you have to watch out for enemies too).
But I dislike playing(and suck at) most meta supports, (not comfortable with most enchanters' skillshots, while finding hook engage supports frustrating to play(and play against, to me their design is unhealthy and sometimes there are just unwinnable matchups) ).
Used to main Tahm and Yuumi but they got reworked :(
Recently I have been playing Jhin, Teemo and off-meta supports like them. I especially enjoy laying traps everywhere.
However I still have some problems, especially with jhin sup. People assume me to be wanting adc or trolling when I show jhin supp, but due to the stupid auto rune, I have to lock in jhin 20s before start to set runes, which I can't decide on the best one.
And I don't seen to play very well.
I love ADC lb (especially with statikk shiv again soon™) It's not the best as you don't have as much raw damage buffs such as onhits/attack speed, but you're incredibly mobile, chain (or multiple) for setting up kills, the W charges up your energized ridiculously fast (if you walk away from your W position and aa for proc and aa+blink back, both your attacks will proc energized for extra healing, damage, and safe trades/bursts and catches people off guard), attacks from poking also is a lot faster/more reliable than your usual AP build and scales far better in longer games due to the fact that LB loses games she can't close, the main struggle is very early game against waveclear and reliable poke but snowballs much harder than adcs IMO
Teemo support is easily my favorite one and so many people think it's troll but like:
1. You can blind the majority of ADCs and completely nullify their main damage output for a few seconds
2. Still have a solid amount of damage pressure
3. Cheap build, get Liandry's to function and it's all nice bonuses from there.
4. Teemo is a champion who by merely existing on the map takes a ton of focus. Either because the enemy team is dumb and tiltable and will focus you over the ADC, but also things like forcing an enemy to get 4 oracles, making their vision weaker only to take out a fraction of your vision and traps.
5. My personal biggest reason: The zone control your mushrooms offer go from being a rather self-focused defensive tool (mostly discouraging top ganks which hardly happen anyway) to being a valuable early game objective control tool that helps dissuade the enemy jungle from ganking the much more popular botlane and control the dragon pit, which as you go into the game (especially building CDR) offers you significantly more vision control than the enemy team.
6. Teemo can also stall a game for a long ass time, being one of few supports who can dissuade multiple waves of minions crashing into your base in the scenario you're a lone survivor, a situation most supports do not function well in. This stalling ability and ability to viably sell your support item without sacrificing vision control means you can quickly catch up in budget with your other teammates, giving you 5 fully-budgeted champions.
Next time the enemy ADC locks in Vayne, supports, I encourage you, go CDR Teemo support and perma-blind her. The resulting ragequits are priceless.
Yes teemo support is really a fun pick. Since you don't have to worry about cs you can use a your time to shrooms the jungles. And don't need to put level on E since you are not the damage dealer, allowing longer blind and shoter cd on Q, and more ms with W.
You even get to build build full cdr!
One problem is that in early laning phase, even if the eneny adc is blind, if they are burst adc + engage support they can still oneshot.
Tried the Assinn Vi after watching the vid on happychimes channel, is real fun. I'm not good at it. far to reckless but im having a blast with it. along with the new neeko ( its fun turning into a caster minion, ganking a bot lane and R+E+Q suprise attack
Yuumi jungle got me to bronze 4 so im pretty sure its a genius strategy. Also started playing league about a week ago.
It really aint, its just everyone in bronze are morons, also best to switch champs since learning the game with yuumi is like learning how to walk without kneecaps.
The imagery of AP Darius looks hilarious
I hope this opens the eyes of some people who just hate on any off meta build especially when it can make sense
the world of league still isnt ready for the terror that is on hit ivern
There was also the cases of AP Kai’Sa mid (which got her W AP scaling nuked from 70% to 45%) and on-hit rage-blade in the top lane.
12:46 little did he know singed mid is regularly played by singed mains in all skill levels, heck even faker drops some ap singed mid games every once in a while
AP Rengar is THE perfect example of an off-meta pick imo. Traditionally, he's an AD assassin who deals practically all of his damage on one target with an empowered auto-attack. With AP Rengar however, you trade off the crazy single-target damage (and any semblance of DPS) for far superior AOE damage and waveclear. You're still playing the same champion, but you're essentially choosing to opt into different stats to get a different experience, almost as if you were creating a character in an MMORPG.
11:19 oml this just reawakened this repressed memory from half a season or a full year ago where I encountered a yone jg in low silver lmao. Mans powerfarmed the entire time with shitty clear speed and no kiting whatsoever and expected the rest of us to just be okay playing 4v5
Ever since I’ve started watching riste playing Garen mid in high elo, I’ve been chasing that dream of getting just as good with my old favorite 😊
Depends on how well the pick works, like the Jayce support I had yesterday, it was as a very INTeresting choice.
I had a Jayce support me as an adc he and he did so well that the game thought that HE was the adc and I was the bot laner :/ .
Humiliating
petition to add "u" after r in Vars's name
One thing I've noticed about HappyChimeNoises' videos is that the players he talks about usually have years of experience playing those certain champs/builds before they reach higher ranks. Like one of his more recent videos covered Pink Ward's AD Shaco, a champ PW has been very proficient with for longer than most of us have been playing the game.
If AP Sion ever gets buffed, I'll bet Chime makes a video about Tilterella because Tillt used to do it LONG before it was effective, and climbs with that experience.
i can't wait to run that new guinsoos rageblade on illaoi real soon
For me, the big thing is what does the Off Meta offer that the original does not? Some may build something full AP despite having one scaling that AD does jsut as well. But at that point, why build the AP? If the items dont offer ebough otherwise, its now a troll pick.
AP Twitch is a good example of an off meta that works for unique reasons. Normal Twitch uses his passive to help with his E damage, his q is to help position, and ult to help shred in team fights from afar. AP twitch uses their Passive and E as a burst tool, Q is there FOR the passive and to reposition, and ult is to help continue to apply passive. The mentality is classic, consistent ADC vs Bursty APC.
Another one is Bruiser Voli vs AP attack speed Voli. Bruiser is meant to dive into the enemy and be disruptive, with just enough sustain to be hard to deal with, his E is meant to give a shield and help control a zone or catch a foe, Q helps CC and engage, and W is mainly his sustain. His passive is there as a neat bonus for engaging. AP makes more use, and benefits more, from the passive, E and ult, but makes his Q entirely utility based and W more if a passive stacking tool and minor heal. Its about the raw, fast damage over the sustained, drawn out frontline he normally does.
I've played probably more off-meta stuff than meta stuff over the years, and probably half the time something I did became meta or at least well known after the fact. In season 3 I was playing AP Lulu mid and getting flamed for it, yet not too long after pros were playing that shit so ridiculously they not only get her nerfed but they permanently got Lich Bane's AP ratio lowered because of how busted it became on her. I was playing Nocturne in lane plenty for awhile, and then that shit became popular a few years ago. I played Nautilus mid well before Doinb made that pick famous.
The thing about off-meta stuff is you have this annoying burden of backing it up. Teammates don't know how to play around you as well because they're used to what a pick does in its main role, and people are so quick to lose faith in you if something goes wrong despite things going wrong being expected. It sucks because off-meta is just a more fun way to play the game for some of us, yet people will insist on making that experience less fun for you solely because they're frightened by the unfamiliar.
syill remeber my one of the best off meta strategy pick:
split push tristana top
she had good push and destous turrets fast while having resorses how to run away from enemy :P (I rarely play this bcs it's range top)
off meta for me is when u pick a champ u know more then most in a role they will not be played normally in to give u advantages in draft (bates them into picking mid vs ziggs when ziggs was apc or sup) or in lane (u know the matchups they dont) but still needs to give u what u want from that role (like top being able to split and sup having vision control and or cc) or it does what other "meta" picks in that lane but offers other disadvantages and advantages
like ziggs support (not to off meta but it gets my point across) he is like vel'koz he has range and great neutral but at the cost of true damage and super high burst he gets higher up time and higher dps with turret damage and global ultimate
and other picks are picks that give u fully new tools but does not loss much has long has u are really good at both the role and champion and items/rune options (zoe sup TF sup and lissandra sup/top being my favourite picks)
And it will be really interesting how the meta changes will patch 12.10 and the next pre season in which, at least, Riot will change fighters and magues items.
Back in season 3, I played support and thought Naut would be good in that role. I looked around on TH-cam and found an off meta video of him being played and tried it myself. He became one of my three rotating supports the other two being Thresh and Leona
That feel when you're so old that support Naut was considered strange. But then I'm right there with you. I remember buying the astronaut Teemo skin to do 'space lane' with my friend.
My most iconic build is a healer Kindred build. I'm a support main who likes playing off-meta supports, but this particular build came about from me looking at Kindred's kit - an AoE area denial, a slow, a self heal, a way of getting out of danger, and quite possibly the best support ultimate in the game - and I realised she actually has a number of factors that would make her a decent support. I decided to double down on this by building moonstone renewer, redemption, and ardent censer as her main items.
Moonstone allowed me to heal allies consistently by just hitting enemies with an attack or ability, meaning I could sit back and use my W to get heals without ever being in danger, or I could be dealing damage and healing simultaniously.
Redemption just stacks onto that with additional heals (you can take Heal instead of ignite to double down on that).
Then finally ardent actually has a pretty wild effect: it can trigger to buff both you and an ally to deal more damage for 6 seconds when you heal them. Moonstone has a cooldown of only 2 seconds. That means that if you're consistently doing damage, and thus constantly proccing moonstone, both you and an ally can have effectively permanent ardent buff.
This turned Kindred from a marksman jungler into a hybrid damage and heal character. Admittedly it wasn't incredibly strong and the AP from the items goes to waste, but it certainly wasn't as much of a troll pick as it first sounds. Unfortunately with the new moonstone changes it'll no longer be possible.
Rip old moonstone builds
I've always wanted to make jungle split push zigs work. My logic is that you could shove towers down all around the map after helping laners shove in and have a semi global ulti for a pseudo gank
And for random wave clear on ult if you really want to lol
Video suggestion : Do you think we should add something like talents or a system like the Aghanim's Scepter into LoL as a pre-season change?
expand the map, add a talent tree and league becomes so stupid fun. I love the slower paced, big matches from dota.
Well I think the answer is no, judging by the way game goes is basically asking for a mile to make it, remember how bad talent was when they introduce back in 7.00, or it's need like 7 years to get everyone aghanim scepter even then most of them are just filler for the patch .
I think league in general don't need adding extra Hussle for this kinda stuff because how heavy focus game for micro strategy, but for something like dota who focusing on macro is such a nice way to adding extra layer of it.
Now what is the good way to league well make split push worth to do or, make new objective to contest, I think one of unexplored design is gold digger from vainglory which if you take enemy gold digger their gpm will decrease from 3/s to 1,5/s.
League issue right now is that the map is simply too small, neekos rework proves that the game can be waaaay more than what it is right now, it's literally held back by the devs not wanting to push for actual new stuff.
Just like how they refuse to do actual balancing because they would need to rework the whole champion stat system from the ground.
divine sundere on yone is his best mythic item, change my mind, I’ve been building it on him since forever, it just makes sense
Makes tons of sense for 2 years+ until 13.10, where DS got nerfed into oblivion and galeforce start scaling crit
And then 1 or 2 patchs later, galeforce no longer scales crit
Vars I absolutely love your content, and hope you never leave us. But I'll have you know I'm an otp pantheon sup, and he is still a VERY viable support pick.
Funny thing is that my 3 favorite picks are off meta. My favorite, which is kassadin, but with warmog’s armor last. My second and third, which is crit pantheon adc and crit renekton top, are also off meta, since I build as an adc in those picks. I actually perform better as these picks than the normal meta builds and play styles for those champions
Just wondering but if crit pantheon adc works, on-hit pantheon adc will also be nice? His empowered W empower attack to apply on-hit thrice.
Or is it because of the crit items like navori quickblade/galeforce being good on him?
@@marixsunnyotp3142 I guess onhit also works, just that crit usually does more damage, especially since emp w gives 3 lethal tempo stacks, so you can almost always outtrade the adc
I think the game is in such a strict champion and item defined era that the meta is a large reason why the game is less fun and more toxic
The reason it's often frustrating when an off meta strategy hits mainstream is that then you encounter a bunch of people in your own games trying to replicate it without having the knowledge or skill or make it work. Right now Kayn top lane has become a thing, but a lot of the time it doesn't go very well because the players trying to replicate the strategy won't have much knowledge of Kayn as a champion, might not have the macro knowledge of the game to know what to do at what time, and might not understand the ins and outs of top lane leading to them getting crushed. This is very frustrating when it's your teammate.
yeah, I think the thing is the person who pioneered the strategy probably also fed some during his trial period but it was one person so it wasn't that bad. but when it goes "mainstream" you've got hundred of people fumbling around with it.
Also league in general has become less conducive to off meta stuff as a higher percentage of people play only the best of the best meta stuff. I remember 10 years ago people played all kinds of crap but it didn't matter as much because the meta wasn't as set.
@@j.asmrgaming1228 its especially worse in the current meta where you physically have to go meta or you can't even kill tanks or ADC's, and any character that can do both rn is S+
I used to main hybrid kai'sa jungle, before the item rework, around 2019. I would rush bloodrazor --> beserkers--> gunblade-->hurricane-->zhonyas-->dcap. I had everything strategized out, if i was blue side start redbuff level 2 invade blast plant over q --> w finihs with autos and steal their jg run mid or bot. It was so fun people would be like dodge we lose blah blah blah. It's what got me to diamond unironically with a 76%wr and I was silver the season before. I quit playing her after the item rework and gunblade was removed tho, I honestly think it was sleep and kaisa was just OP but she always is so. RIP my gunblade kaisa :(
(p.s. you could sneak drag with bloodrazor and beserkers level 5-6 really easily)
I play a lot of heartsteel sona top. It pretty much always beat my opponent. The problem with it is, since i have no save clear. My opponent usually gets to sit on my tower until its gone. And after tower is gone i can hardly handle the 1v1 if i dont have at least 2 items to fight with.
My favourite off meta used to be jungle singed.
That was some seasons ago xD
Rest in Peace Pyke Mid.
Well let me tell you I started playing off meta mostly because I couldnt always get an S with my favorite champions so I would take them outside their roles, all of them are M7 now lol
is the background music on this the blue archive ost?
That being said while off-meta builds are a thing people do and why some believe them to be trollpicks all boils down to perspective and whether or not it's found disruptive by members of that player(s)'s team. This is what determines whether or not they're trolling, soft inting, intentionally feeding, or attempting to throw by doing virtually nothing.
The thing is, if you constantly do an off-meta pick with a playstyle your team doesn't like, it's clear it bothers them enough to be disruptive to their gameplay. I can understand from theBauss's perspective that he's trying to win the game and he isn't trying to commit to any gameplay-disruptive behavior, but yet from the perspective of his teammates, I fully understand why it would be viewed that way and warrant a possible ban, mind you not a confirmed or total ban, just one that can possibly happen.
But how to define "bothering"?
For example, can I say that "this teamate is bothering me because he plays vayne top, he needs to be banned". Is it fair?
How about a seraphine adc that wrecks enemy team and only picks her when the team already has hypercarry?
On the other hand, will a player that plays "normal pick" but never tries to set up for gank, then throws and blames everyone when no one ganks? Isn't that less justified and more bothering?
Or even in extreme cases, a max W max cdr Anivia with the sole goal of disrupting you? Can they even be considered the same thing?
reminds me of when i was playing with my dad and he was arguing that its ok for him to play Kindred and Lee Sin support because arguing what a "real support is" is semantics and doesnt matter. Even if we won the games, lane was just insanely horrible. You can barely justify those support picks
There is a healer kindred support in this video's comment section.
For Lee Sin, wards from support item allows lee sin to save money from buying control wards to W onto and allows hin to get wardstone if that's not enough wards. It also solves the problem of Lee Sin jg clearing slowly.
As Lee is an ad fighter/assassin, he can take umbral glaive for vision.
He can poke with Q.
His W is a mana-free shield which is rather big(if upgraded or has ap, compared to lux W). It can also allow him to proc Echoes of Helia(sadly due to not having mana, Lee Sin loses some ap from the passive).
His E has slow, the slow is strong IF you level up E.
At level 6 enemy adc is free kill with R flash. Lee Sin's R is also good for protecting your adc by kicking enemy bruiser/assassin away.
I just play to have fun, so I guess its a little bit of both off meta and troll pick for me. Im a support main and I do stupid stuff like Shurelya supp/tank J4, Moonstone supp Twitch, Shield spam iron solari Lee Sin and more other stuff. I just make sure i play with friends so they don't get mad at me, we're all having fun here.
Echoes of helia lee sin let's go!
l ove off meta picks, kayn/thresh top, urgot/aatrox jng, its fun playing a champ you like in a different role.
Ultimate bravery....how that brings back memories
Will never understand why people complain so much about people playing off meta. I have to listen to my teammates whine about it constantly. The biggest reason why it irritates me is because I can't get teammates that know how to play META correctly, so what does it matter if I play meta or not. People care way too much about playing meta without actually knowing how to play the game correctly in the first place which is extremely silly. Improve at the game before you start caring about meta.
I was so shook when I saw the acronym
Then I saw it was a backromym and was calmed again
I been playing a lot of off meta mid lane these days. Cait, Zyra, gragas, AP kog and jhin.
back in my old days, before Soraka gets her rework
my friends used to troll me by sending ME into the jungle
so I would troll them by picking whatever I felt was worth a try
And one day I played Old Soraka jungler
Because her q was spammable aoe and she could replenish her own health
My Soraka ganks were like this :
ally : Please, I need a nurse !
Me : Coming !
give health and mana and off to the jungle
We obviously lost that game but it was very funny 🤣
When I do it, it's "off meta",
when my teammates do it, it's "troll pick",
when my enemies do it, it's "god tier one trick pick".
Doesn't "Meta" come from "Metagame", as in "the game you play about the game, usimg data and patterns, in order to solve it outside of its intended eviorment"?
that is where it comes from. honestly, "most effective tactic available" is a bit of misnomer. it discourages experimenting, since it implies this is the definitive best way to do things
As an off-meta enjoyer I feel following the meta to be extremely boring and needlessly stressful. I just want to play the game and have fun, and I find the most fun in using the champions and re-learning in ways that dont put me under any stress, and surprise, so far I have over a 70% winrate. This proves that, at least in my case, the mental state have a way better impact on the game compared to any tier lists.
If there’s one thing that isn’t that bad about having dementia, it’s that I can watch some of my favorite videos over and over, mostly Vars!
2:24 this sound shredded my ears
Thank you for acknowledging that the idea of "M.E.T.A." is a backronym, it's been a pet peeve of mine for so long!
I haven't watched the video yet, so this is my opinion before hearing yours. The differences between off-meta picks and troll picks are personal experience and time. For example, someone who wins a match with AD Janna on their team would have a more positive opinion of the abnormal pick than if the opposite happened. In addition, the more times a person sees an off-meta pick, regardless of experience, the more likely they are to believe there is some merit to the strategy. Essentially, there is no difference besides personal opinion.
The biggest Off-Meta into Meta strat was the AP Mage Sup.
Back in S3 Sups were slaves to the ADC. You picked a tank with high CC or an Enchanter, one gold gen item, boots and all wards you could possibly have, and that's it. If for some reason you got a kill, maybe a second sup item.
But then people realized some supports could use the mana regen from their kit and their high base damage to be quite threatening in the early game as mages. Thus, Annie Sup was born and she was scary. AoE instant stun on her ult, making her an amazing catcher, a target stun on her Q or her W for AoE stun if the ult wasn't available. Regardless of the method, her full combo could 100-0 an ADC and their Sup, and that meant you still had a another ADC with their entire kill to unload and Tibers as a tank, as well as she should be half-through ther next stun. Then Vel'Koz came around with true damage on his passive scaling with level, and more range than anyone else in the botlane (as well as a poke that could hit two people at once with ease). This lead to several changes to both champions as well as other mages who were starting to see play as sups in order to buff their mid-lane playstyles and directly nerf their support playstyles, yet Riot never managed to beat this off-meta strat (this thing survived the ardent meta), even today we see plenty of mages as S tier picks in the sup role and are particularly strong in SoloQ as poorly coordinated teams usually have a hard time dealing with it.
In wild rift I basically exclusively played Thresh Mid for a while, and I honestly had so much more fun playing the game when I was playing him in mid
Akali has in the past 2 and a half seasons, swapped mythics or some items to AD ones. As an example, early 11 she used to play ravenous every game, then at some point I don't remember why. Stride breaker became popular in high elo, then in season 12 we had a solid 3 months of chemtank cause it randomly was better than protobelt, then in season 13 we used static shiv cause it had busted wave clear.
All with vastly different runes, conq or electrocute, blue, green, yellow subset. With pom, without pom, with first strike, with demat, with the healing one in yellow etc.
Without mentioning the before season 11 stories.
All for the ADC that is getting shit on to spam ping me why you build sunderer versus 3 tanks or conq. I swear I am playing with people that came in the game yesterday.
In a game based on team work with multiple choices and decisions to make. Playing off meta is literally trolling. Every role has defined goals and expectations. When you deviate from it too much you will be grinded up by the harsh realities of Summoner's Rift. It's survival of the fittest.
(While Riot may not be the best at communicating how to play, and terrible at enforcing community standards. The game is still balanced around the meta that was establishedsince the game's inception).
I love playing off meta, I enjoy play sej and shen both in jg and support
The weird thing is "off meta" doesn't nessesarily mean not developer intended. Tom Kench support is condiered off-meta, for example. Picking a character in a non traditional role might be better sometimes than picking a character in thier intended role when they're just super weak at the time.
I think the most important factor of if something is off meta or just trolling is if the person who picks it actually thinks it is good and tries to do well with it, or if they are intending to do badly.
i kinda miss Pyke mid and Sett / Pantheon support
I started league right before s11 so I feel it.
great video
My favorite off meta pick right now has to be the reworked ASol in the Jungle. Fast scaling, REALLY good Ganks with his W, insane damage and he is an infinite scaler. Also his E delays everything, when it gets big, because the zoning potential is just great on his champ
I played Janna top just for the fun of it. Went pretty well in low elo (silver). Never tried it higher though because I was scared to be flamed and banned for trolling^^
not gonna lie, i literally been playin pyke mid on several accounts since the day he was released. And that early on, people would threaten to report me and dodge simply because i locked in pyke mid. Now its meta
This is actually less a state of the game’s community and moreso a symptom of how the game was designed in the first place.
The problem here is the game design behind itemization. If the game did not feature items as a system, this would not happen.
For example, HotS had a talent system instead, where you got character based upgrades as you levelled up. These would still drastically alter the playstyle between talent trees but was not only easier to balance but also didn’t feature “troll builds” because there was no troll build. No matter what unless you picked nothing, it was very hard to pick a wrong choice. With the only thing being that in some cases there would be a few trees that would work well together.
This was something that they also alleviated though and would have continued to do if the game continued to recieve updates. Instead of having specific things all tied to one particular set in some cases if build diversity was low they would turn talent trees into particular levels focusing on a type of upgrade with the player moreso choosing how they wanted to execute that.
Dont mind me going on about how Heroes was actually very well designed and people don’t give it enough creditz
Chime videos be like "heres a great off meta pick! Its only used by one guy though.
Who is a massive one trick pony since the fall of Rome and already knows the ins and outs, but its a good pick I swear!"
AD leblanc is one of the wierd actually good builds with 0 AD ratios only because of the surviveability
Off-meta picks make the game fun, it's just a shame sometimes people run you down for it x)
I am a huge kled player and play him support with great success.