He only wrote it to shut Steve up. That's why when the interviewer pushed him and asks do agree he co created it Stan wouldn't even just on the video at a super old age with millions of dollars and fans say "you know what it really was 50/50. I wrote the stories and ditko drew them. He draw something and I'd write off his idea, then I'd write an idea and he'd draw it. Spiderman wouldn't exist without me and him nor would the Marvel brand exist without all the artists that helped me 50/50, look at you Kirby". He never said that ever. To hear any interview he gave the company, that was going bankrupt under his writing, wouldn't be where it's at today without his writing. He was a narcissist, but just a kind one who loved the fans and the medium. Guess if people kept telling me I was the man and the other teammates were all gone I might let it go to my head too.
@@gorsching But knowing how the Marvel Method works, did Stan really write anything? Stan The Conman did not do any storylines, he let Ditko do the stories with his panels and he filled in the word balloons with words. The Marvel Method, as Stan himself admits in his book The Origin Of Marvel Comics. Also, it was Joe Simon who came up with the name Spiderman years before and Jack Kirby brought this up to Stan The Conman, Stan didn't even come up with the name! And in the last panel in Amazing Stories, the debute of Spiderman, Stan wrote the now famous line "With great power comes great responsibility" which he plagiarised from a speech Winston Churhill had made. Stan was a great editor, and some said a great boss as he gave his artists free creative range over their stories, but I call him Stan The Conman because he took credit for their work. Now if you want to call this 50/50 colaboration, so be it, I don't. However, Martin Goodman the publisher for then Marvel comics was even worse.
@@wiseguymaybe How is taking a certain line from Winston Churchill's speech considered plagiarism? By that logic, Churchill plagiarized the "with great power" line from Voltaire, the one who first coined the phrase, and George Lucas plagiarized George W. Bush when he had Anakin say, "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy." Plus, just because Stan Lee didn't originally coined the name "Spider-Man" doesn't mean he plagiarized the name either, there are many examples of characters in a comic publisher that share the same name of another character from another comic publisher, plus the name "Spider-Man" wasn't used for "The Fly" character anyways.
@@SpFlash1523 You may have a point on the plagiarism I don't think anyone is going to get sued over that, my example is how unoriginal Stan is, as for the name of Spiderman, it was Jack Kirby that came to Stan with that name, but really let's get away from that old arguement, and talk about Marvels first family The Fantastic Four, where Stan tells a real whooper for years about how he was going to get out of comics and write meaningful stories. not just comics, and his wife told him that he should write stories he wants to tell in the comic stories, and what did he have to lose, he was going to quite anyway. Sooo came the Fantastic Four, according to Stan. Chris Tolworthy a writer who has studied Jack Kirby and knows his style well, believes, for good reason that Jack not only illustrate the FF but wrote the story and created the FF by himself. Why does he say that? Because of The Challengers Of The Unknow who Kirby had wrote and drew for DC comics. He says that the origin of the Challengers is the same to the FF's origin, to similiar and to much Kirby style, plus in issue 3 of The Challengers Of The Unknown Rocky. one of The Challengers is sent into space and comes back with super powers, being able to flame on, turn invisible, have super strength and grow large or small. This is long before FF. Plus Chis's dissecting of FF issue one, he sees the four character's personality of the early Challengers and of the FF to similiar. Even the first panel of the FF #1 is almost exact to a monster comic Kirby had done in the past. After Jack left to go work for Marvel. those characters of Challengers Of The Unknown became more 2 dimensional and the stories more boring so the comic faded out eveintually. But those early issues with Jack Kirby behind the stories are something you should look into, just in case you don't believe Chris Tolworthy. You should look into Chris's books they are very interesting. I doubt very much Stan was worried about writing more meaningful stories, as publisher Martin Goodman was about to stop publishing comics all together as they were doing poor in sale and concentrate on his men's magazine, which would have left Stan The Man in the cold and without a job. When Kirby returned there was a lot of excitement to have the old comic book pro back. The sales of the FF is what saved the comic book department, and it's amazing how Stan leaves that out of his stories of the origin of the FF. Never heard him say, "I saved Marvel Comics. "
Through it all, I still love Stan Lee. I just believe that Ditko deserves just as much credit given he physically brought the character to life while Lee was the writer and author of comics.
It's arguable that Lee was the writer and author. Ditko and even Kirby had input on the initial ideas on the character. However, all credit to Lee for scripting and refining. But much of this could have been avoided if Lee gave credit proactively instead of reactively.
Lee would basically give them a prompt and a concept for the character and then the artists would basically do everything then he would look over it after they were done and edit some lines. Dude was a scumbag for basically taking credit for sole creating it.
Stan hired his artists to make the characters he envisioned. It's no different than the Winklevoss Twins hiring Mark Zuckerberg to make their social network.
@@petermj1098 the twins got a settlement if I recall. Stan had an idea that others expanded. It was a collaboration effort. All involved deserved credit.
@@georgesalgado8783 Yes Stan is a co-creator with the other artists he worked with, I'm just tired of people hating on Stan like he stole all credit and didn't write the characters at all. Kirby and Ditko were hired for freelance. They always got credit but Marvel always had ownership of the characters. It was their mistake for not negotiating real ownserhip in the first place. Kirby and Ditko also had creative differences. Ditko was more interested in making Ayn Rand Objectivist characters. Kirby was more interested in making cosmic/God-related characters. Stan was interested in making humans with personal struggles while being superheroes.
@@petermj1098 oh don't get me wrong I adore Stan Lee. He was essential as were the rest. What you say about negotiating ownership is 100% true. It reminds me of what happened to Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster with Superman but publishing companies back then didn't budge on such things.
Whatever the debate,Steve's costume design is still a masterpiece.when I first saw Spider-Man costume in cartoon I was surprised as who would have created these design?because it was so unique,different and special.Glad I get to know the name behind this genius work
My understanding is that Jack Kirby designed Spider-man's costume. Stan gave Jack the character first, and when Jack's drawings came back with the character looking too powerful Stan gave it to Steve instead so Spider-man would look more "everyman". You can find Jack's original drawing online.
A minute into this video and I have already found the flaw in Stan’s logic. He says; “the person who came up with the idea first is the creator” but that is not really the whole truth. If that were the case, then by his own admission Stan Lee would not have created Thor for example. The Scandinavian’s would have creator credit because they “came up with the idea first”! My belief is that both Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created Spider-Man. There is no “I” involved. Both men were doing half of one person’s job.
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 But that does not make him the sole “creator” of Spider-Man. Co-creator definitely but not “The creator”. If you go around saying you’re the creator of something then people will assume you did 100% of the job bringing that idea into existence and you overshadow other’s people’s work, such as Steve Ditko’s.
@@redzO9 I'm making a reference of what you said...if Stan Lee says, "the person who came up with the idea first is the creator" if that were the case then Jack Kirby is the creator of Spider-Man because he had the idea first.
And can be said about Doctor strange, where it was did go that pitched the idea of Doctor strange. Stan only just adjusted the name from Mr strange to doctor
Stan lee fucked kids and stole credit and betrayed the real creators. He’s a lieing minipulating piece of fucking shit and I’m glad he’s burning in hell.
@@programmer4690 in the abstract, Dr. Strange is a case where I could actually see the artist’s name come before the writer’s. But simply put this is print media and the convention is that the writer/editor is credited first. The Marvel Method was a frankly unprecedented form of storytelling, which I think Stan did his best to acknowledge through the variety of credit descriptors as the titles progressed, those were always changing, the first D.Strange was “Story: Stan Lee Art: Steve Ditko Lettering: Terry Szenics” Then for a few issues it was “Written by... Drawn by... Lettered by...” Then ‘drawn’ became ‘illustrated’ and with his seventh issue (Strange Tales #118, I happen to have my Omnibus on me😘), we begin the tradition of adding flourish to the credits: “Written by Magical Stan Lee Drawn by Mystical Steve Ditko Lettered by Mysterious S. Rosen.” Which soon becomes things like “Story conjured up by: Illustrated by the strange sorcery of: Lettered at midnight by: ...” “Though there be many writers, none but *Stan Lee* could have penned this tale! Though there be many artists, none but *Steve Ditko* could have drawn this tale! Though there be many letterers, none but *Artie Simek* was available when we needed him!” “Strange is this script by: Stan Lee! Awesome is this art by: Steve Ditko Lilting is this lettering by: S. Rosen!” “Written by Marvel’s own living legend, Stan Lee Illustrated by Marvel’s unsung genius, Steve Ditko Lettered by Marvel’s own beaming pixie, Artie Simek” Notice any patterns? The first two are hyped up (in the style of the Strange scripts) and then the third position is humorously denigrated for his doing relatively menial labor in this most creative of processes. You can tell it’s three guys made this comic each time, and it’s basically no secret how it’s done. Moreover you can feel it, you can recognize Lee’s hilariously articulate/overly direct/unmistakably verbose voice a mile away, Ditko’s art is absolutely untouched in my eyes, I could not possibly lavish enough praise on this man. He deserved statues, museums, ships named in his honor. But isn’t that obvious from reading it? Isn’t it clear that both creators had a hand on the wheel? But you get to a certain point in Strange where it doesn’t matter what synopsis Lee is giving Ditko if any, the “story” as it were rests in the visual dimension. At which point, when we meet Eternity, the credits finally introduce the keyword ‘plot,’ becoming “Written and Edited with amazing acumen by: *Stan Lee* Plotted and Illustrated with Artistic Aplomb by: *Steve Ditko* Lettered and bordered with Ruler and Pen by: Artie Simek” But even then it keeps changing, they are trying to describe or get right what the roles are here but like I said it’s new territory in printing. There weren’t credits of _any kind_ when Ditko was at Charlton! He had to scrawl his name in the corner! So isn’t it perfectly fair when his comic, the pincer duel with Dormammu, now reads “Script: Stan Lee Art: Steve Ditko Lettering: S. Rosen (What more could you ask for?)” Or the next even more aggressively favorable division in the very next issue “Dialogue and Captions: Stan Lee Plot and Artwork: Steve Ditko Lettering and More Lettering: Artie Simek” Lee begins to move out of the writer’s role “Eerily Edited by... Stan Lee Spookily Scripted by... Dennis O’Neil Demonically Drawn by... Steve Ditko Laconically Lettered by... Artie Simek” And for _The End-- At Last!_ you get your wish, he’s ahead of the scriptor, but alas, not the editor... “Edited by the Enchanter-- Stan Lee Penciled & Inked by the Prestidigitator-- Steve Ditko Scripted by the Sorcerer-- Dennis O’Neil Lettered by the Letterer-- Artie Simek” This has been a presentation of the changes in authorship-credit format at Marvel from 1963-1966. I hope I have shown the spirit with which Lee and Ditko _split and shared_ credit for the ongoing creation of Doctor Strange. They tried to get across to the readers who was responsible for what, and I think they succeeded wonderfully. Stan Lee, that is-as it was him who *wrote* the credits after all, wasn’t it? 😏
Okay Stan Lee may had the idea and that (that deserve a lot of credit itself, that it's true) but the real problem is that Steve Ditko die really poor and in a very deplorable condition, he was a real genius that wasn't recompensate fairly
Ditko became poor for a lot more reasons than just not getting enough credit for spider-man. It was a lot of his OWN decisions that lead to that. He began hating people in general and had no contacts or friends, and quit marvel by himself. We can't even know the date of his death because no one notice until DAYS after it happened. His poverty is solely his fault considering the talent he had and the jobs he could've accepted.
@@jokx4409 He had a lot of contact with his immediate family. But this information didn't come out until after his death when his relatives revealed this to the public.
Say what you want about Stan getting all the credit but at least he wasn't bob Kane. Dude legitimately denied batman co creator bill finger from getting all credits and recognition even after the guy died. At the very least Stan admitted credit to Steve
Stan Lee took WAY too much credit for characters that were either co created by him or truthfully were overwhelmly down to others. He was positioned as the face of Marvel but the truth is Marvel, DC and other companies have been making millions out of characters while their original creators have been paid ZERO. They KNOW FULL WELL they're rewriting and stealing royalities that should be someone else's.
So many things have come and gone through the years, these characters could have easily died out if there weren’t new people revitalising them constantly especially in recent years, it is past comic writers and artists now and much bigger than it ever was due to people revitalising these characters. The people who created the characters shouldn’t just get royalties for a different product. That’s like saying I made and featured on a song on someone’s album so I should get royalties for every album they make now
Everyone's missing one thing: By his own admission, Stan confirms that Ditko was right in saying Stan was hedging symantically on giving credit! Ditko was an absolutist, and BS word-parsing insulted him! That's exactly what Stan Lee did. Nothing's worse than it you feel like you earned something, and it's given to you like it was placating, insincere charity. "Okay, if it'll make you feel better, here's your paycheck." Really? Ditko nailed it, and Stan never fessed up completely. Our loss.
It seems clear that Dr. Strange was more Steve Ditko's creation, he came up with the lion's share of the world, the different dimensions of the strip. He didn't invent the idea of the 'astral plane' obvs but the specific visuals of it in Dr. Strange, pure Ditko!
This is the most aggressive I've seen Stan Lee get. It reminds me of when Bob Kane was on Lee's program Comic Book Greats and they started talking about Jerry Robinson. Any wonder why Lee & Kane were such good friends.
Apparently even Stan was embarrassed of Bob Kane. When the two went out for dinner, he would always get embarrassed when Bob went out of his way to tell everyone in the room that he created Batman.
@@Eviyl it was only when Bob when Bob told everyone he created Batman and offered the waiters an illustration that Stan was embarrassed by Bob. Outside of that the two were great friends, Bob took stan on limousine rides to see the Batman movies, and Stan was saddened by the fact that Bob didn't live long enough to do the same for Bob with the Spider-Man movies.
I agree with Stan here. Think of Isao Takahata for instance. He doesn’t do anything part from having ideas and telling other people what to do and he still is the creator. That’s what an artist do. Comes up with artistic ideas.
I watched this documentary six years ago. It was so eye opening, steve ditko, while not treated as unjustly as Bill Finger, still got a poor deal. They both led tragic lives after giving the world two of the greatest super heroes known to man.
Kirby, Ditko, et al probably had more of a problem with the fact that Stan Lee was a company man. He worked for Marvel, or was involved with Marvel, pretty much his entire life. All his answers to the creation of characters take into consideration that he was defending Marvel's legal stance, as well as the stance he must take as a condition of the contract(s) he had with Marvel over the decades.
Which is weird because Allen Moore actually fully knows this yet still gripes about it. Like he fully knows that Stan is doing the legally viable yet considerate thing and still goes "but he won't fully say it". People gotta let go of their hang ups
@@PrincessNine Of course not. Alan Moore doesn’t value the company image the way that somebody like Stan does. He’s an artist, not a businessman. He worked for the big publishers and they screwed him out of his work. Do you really expect him to respect Lee for toeing the line? Moore is interested in the moral dilemma. If you were to ask him, I have no doubt that he would acknowledge that there was a legal imperative for Stan to maintain the company’s official version of events. I also imagine he would consider it a cowardly justification for bending the truth. It’s ultimately a difference of worldview.
Love both of them, both pretty hardheaded but they both have valid, understadnable points/perspectives, I think they both were and should be recognized as co-creators of the character.
This is similar to the debate of who is more important, the person who creates an idea or the person who has the vision to market it to the masses. Consider Apple computer. Steve Wozniak designed and built the first Apple computer for his own benefit in his garage and when Steve Jobs saw it, he had a vision of everyone having a personal computer at home. So who should get more credit? The answer, IMO, is they deserve equal credit. You can't have one without the other. So credit to Stan Lee for his idea of a Spider-Man character and credit to Steve Ditko for bringing that idea to life. Team effort!!
The proof of Stan's disingenuousness is right there in his words. He repeatedly says "Steve thinks he created it because he DREW it". But that's a conscious effort to minimize Steve's role in having DESIGNED the character. Steve didn't merely draw a thing that Stan invented all by himself. Stan didn't design the costume. Reportedly Stan also didn't create the powers either besides maybe "he can stick to walls". Other reports indicate that originally Stan had Jack Kirby working on it and Jack had basically retooled his character The Fly and Peter Parker was a kid with a magic ring that would transform him into an adult hero wearing a very Captain America-like outfit with a gun that shot webs. Comparing that with what Ditko did pretty much shows where the holes in Stan's "creation" were. Even the name "Spider-Man" is attributed to Jack as one he'd tried to sell to the Archie Comics publisher years earlier but they rejected it and went with The Fly instead. To me, the final nail in the coffin of Stan's supposed creative genius is the simple fact that somehow, even though Stan started in comics in the early 1940's, his only major creative streak was when he was working with Steve and Jack. He has no characters to speak of either before or after Jack was involved, unless you consider Striperella to be worth mentioning. Meanwhile, both Jack and Steve continued to produce innovative character concepts for decades after their stint with Stan.
Stan created Matt Murdock/Daredevil, Karen Page, Foggy Nelson, Wilson Fisk/Kingpin, Mary Jane Watson, Robbie Robertson, Sam Wilson/The Falcon, Purple Man, Hawkeye, Groot, She Hulk, Mar-Vell, Black Knight, without Kirby or Ditko. It seems people hating Stan simply because he isn’t a artist more than anything. Kirby’s sole creations more about god and cosmic beings as Ditko were more darker characters. When they worked with Stan they made human characters that were more upbeat. I really don’t how see Stan didn’t write the stories when they worked for him.
Stan doesn't get criticized for not being an artist, he gets criticized for overstating his contribution and acting like he is being magnanimous by allowing the artists a co-creator credit. You're right, Stan "created" all those other characters without Jack and Steve, he "created" them with other artists and they are clearly vastly inferior concepts compared with what he did with Jack and Steve, which reinforces my point. But you're right, Stan gave the characters their personalities through the dialog he wrote. That is definitely true. I would never say that Jack and Steve could've created the Marvel universe as we know it without Stan's involvement. it's a question of degrees. If you can't see how Stan didn't write those stories, I guess it depends on your definition of "writing". Stan has said himself that the way the books were done is he would have a plot meeting with the artist and together they'd hash out the main story points for the next issue, resulting in a few sentences worth of information. (I've seen interviews with artists who stated that these meetings sometimes consisted of Stan staring at them until they came up with a plot on their own) Then the artist would go back to his studio and work out how those few lines of notes from the meeting would become a story as they drew the pages. Then Stan would take those pages, and using the rough dialog provided by the artist as a guide, he would fill in the dialog. (Clearly improving it vastly if you compare with the dialog Jack and Steve wrote themselves later in their careers) This is why after the first few issues of Spider-Man, Ditko started receiving a credit for plotting (which he demanded Stan give him) and with the Fantastic Four you'll notice that there were no art/writing credits at all, it was just noted as having been created by Stan and Jack (which Jack agreed to after bristling at Stan giving himself a solo writing credit). Wally Wood famously quit working at Marvel specifically because he felt he was being ripped off by Stan due to Stan giving himself writing credit (and pay!) for stories that Wally had essentially written except for the final dialog.
@@stevewik2280 Yeah Zuckerberg programmed Facebook but he wouldn’t have programmed it without the Winklevoss Twins and Divya Narendra hiring him to make THEIR idea of a social network. Yeah Ditko and Kirby designed the characters but they wouldn’t have designed it without Stan hiring them to make HIS idea of for superheroes. It seems to me - for example, Stan basically told Ditko “I want to make a superhero who is a teen and dresses like a Spider. Make a design for him.” And Ditko would keep making draft after draft until we get the Spider-Man look Stan liked the most - which is the Spider-Man look we know today. Same goes with other characters he did with Ditko and Kirby. Obviously Kirby came up with Galactus’s iconic head and design but Stan is the one who told him to make a god-like planet eating villain in the first place inspiring him to make the look. Just because Stan didn’t exactly have every characters LOOKS in mind doesn’t mean he didn’t have their CHARACTER in mind. Him having their CHARACTER in mind from the start gives himself the right to be called a creator. Stan never stripped away Kirby’s and Ditko’s name as a creator unlike Bob Kane stripped Bill Finger’s name as a creator of Batman for years - which is literally taking credit for writing.
Stan would have a better argument if he wrote out the script, but he didn't. Just by the nature of how these were created, it was a collaborative process and both can rightfully consider themselves creators of the character.
Just came from an Alan Moore video talking about this interview. While Stan Lee had some questionable practices, I feel like Moore really misrepresented this interview. I also agree with Stan that since he thought it up, Spider-Man was his creation, although Steve should also get credit since he fleshed it out, much like how Bill Finger did with Batman after Bob Kane thought him up.
@@joshuacaceres9960 please tell me, show me where he denies his involvement? Lol hes even credited with Lee during the movie intro lol, grow up lil kids 🤣
Give it to anybody to draw it ? Really ? No wonder Stan Lee and Bob Kane were such good friends . Stan isn't around now but I always thought he was a little off if you know what I mean . When I saw him on the cartoon shows as a kid I thought something ain't right with this one . People who don't give credit to someone else's work and hog all the credit for themselves is pretty deplorable to say the least . Sure Stan had the idea but without the costume there's not much to look at .
Stan Lee had not the idea. The idea came from Jack Kirby. Not only that, Jack Kirby and Joe Simon created a similar character called "The Fly" for Archie Publications 3 years before Spider-Man was created. "The Fly" is the story of an orphan teen who lives with his uncles and transforms into a super heroe with the ability to walk up walls. The most shocking thing is Stan Lee always said that he came with the idea of Spider-Man when he saw a fly on the wall of his office..... Yeah right! It seems Stan saw "The Fly" of Jack Kirby in his office. 😄
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 Thanks for the information , here's something you may want to watch . th-cam.com/video/ST5WwIFo1TM/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=NerdSync
@@bryandonahue5446 Thanks I watched the video and I already knew about the SpiderMan costume created by the company Ben Cooper. That proves that the Spider-Man name existed even before Spider-Man. Also..Did you know that ."The Fly" character that I mentioned created in 1959 by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby is a reworked idea of Silver Spider? "Silver Spider" is a concept created in 1954 by Captain America creator Joe Simon. The concept was rejected by the company Harvey Comics.⁸
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 No I didn't know these things , just stumbled on all this information recently . ( I have been aware of Bill Finger being basically ripped off for quite awhile ) Back to Spider- Man I think the Ben Cooper design is just too similar to be coincidence . The behind the scenes stories I been watching lately would make a good movie especially since we are being bombarded with comic book movies as of late . I'll be looking into ' The Fly " next . Thanks again for the info , you certainly know your stuff .
@@PauloJrchannel Did he actually said that or was that taken out of context? Cause Jack drew a very early version for the character that wasn't named like that yet.
@@Venom96930 It was a spider themed kid that shot webs from a gun, it's essentially a proto Spiderman, Stan only allegedly came up with the sticking to walls part, and Ditko gave him the iconic aesthetic that made him popular
The comics industry wouldn't be where it is without him...I just wish he elevated his co-creators more often. A lot of those ideas were ideas that were workshopped and changed and morphed throughout the years by different people. Spider-Man went through a few phases (possibly with some ideas from Kirby) before Ditko and Lee got on it and fine-tuned it. It wasn't just one man having a spark and creating gold. Additionally, a lot of these ideas were very rough until other creators reworked and revamped them into what we know today (Steranko on Nick Fury, with influence from Jack Kirby; Len Wein, Dave Cockrum, Chris Claremont, and John Byrne on the X-Men; Wally Wood's art on Daredevil, etc). Even Jack Kirby and Joe Simon had to contend with the idea that the Shield and other patriotic heroes debuted before Captain America, but what they did with the character is what made Cap stand out. Lee was a great editor, in that he took ideas and refined them, but most accounts say he wasn't the progenitor of many of these ideas. Though, again, this doesn't take away for how he avocated for comics or take away from possibly improving the initial ideas. It's just a reminder that he should've spent more time emphasizing the collaborative part of comics making (which to be fair, he did in some interviews, and, comparatively, he did far more than Bob Kane ever did).
Stan Lee had such an ego he could never admit that anyone other than himself had been the Marvel genius that was responsible for ALL the early comic success.
I always tell everyone. Look at Stan Lee before Kirby. Look at Stan Lee after Kirby. Now Look at Kirby before Stan Lee and Look at Kirby after Stan Lee. Steve Ditko wasn't a slouch either just the argument about who did what is even more tipped towards Kirby than what Ditko gets. It's just Stan Lee had a huge voice being the editor for yrs and when Kirby died Ditko stayed away. That left Lee being the only one to say what he did and no one could say no. And no one wanted to because he was an old man who was extremely charismatic and passionate about the comic book medium
I think steve def shouldve gotten more credit because Spiderman is obviously a very popular character and that is not just because of the story but his looks. Its important to make someone unique, stand out and recogonizable immediately so that it can be popular character. The ones who dont even watch marvel or read Marvel still recognise spidey almost immediately because steve gave him such a unique look. And these are the ppl who dont rly know spidey'story.
I do think Steve should have gotten much, much more credit since he's the one who brought the Spider-Man characters to life and was the one who designed them. I also do think that it's perfectly normal for one person doing the writing of a comic book/graphic novel and the other doing the illustrations, same with certain children books too, so I think Stan and Steve both had their parts in the Spider-Man books. In my opinion, I think both the writer and artist are the ones who create a certain idea, not just one or the other, because one person comes up with the characters, settings, backstories, etc. while the artist is the one who brings those characters and settings to life, so both Lee and Ditko are amazing creators and do their parts in making a comic book the way it is. Again, that's just my personal opinion.
Guys, Stan is just a man, he's not a all-fair and just superhuman. He has flaws of his own, flaws like jealousy and pride like any other man. But he's also tried to fix his mistakes and admits when he's wrong. Just because he was a little bit prideful over his co-creations doesn't make him a horrible person.
He shows remorse over how the situation was handled while admitting he should have given Ditko a bit more credit than he did, even if he still considers himself the main creator. I think that's the best you can really ask for, and it's unrealistic to expect Stan to be some perfect embodiment of humanity. He still comes off as a nice, down-to-earth guy, that doesn't mean he's without flaws.
Fanboys don't wanna see it. You love the PERSONA of Stan. But he didn't even write. Shooter recently admitted he plotted the Sixties Silver Surfer series. Come on.
Yeah, every time I've tried to criticise stan fan boys get so angry, one even said to me that he's dead so I shouldn't criticise him... but how he handled most things was awful... I've even heard that the whole spider man thing damaged Steve Ditko's mental health as he got older
Stan Lee originally went to Jack Kirby to draw Spider-Man but wasn't keen on the art ideas Jack presented, so he gave Steve Ditko a chance at it,. and preferred his design. And Steve Ditko did contribute plot ideas. That said, Ditko presented plot ideas because he had an obsession with pushing his Objectivist political/social views through his comic book work whenever possible. He quickly lost interest in projects where he wasn't allowed to push his agenda through the mouthpieces of his characters. He left Spider-Man because Stan Lee's dialog often contradicted the ideas Ditko was trying to push through his art, so he got frustrated by not being able to push Ayn Rand's dreck, and left in a huff. He also often refused to cash checks for work he felt didn't match what he wanted to have put out, as a form of masochistic silent protest. Ditko's Objectivist philosophy, with its emphasis on materialism and capitalism, also informed his notion that the person with the idea is worthless, while the person who manufactures the product is all-important. Of course, he ignored that Stan Lee wrote the words, and that people inked, colored, and lettered the pages other than himself. But since comics are a mixture of art and text, it was stupid and hypocritical of Ditko to discount Stan Lee as a 'worthless' idea man and himself as the 'creator' of the comic pages. Without Stan Lee, with Ditko scripting, Peter Parker would have come across as a cold, pro-industrialist, right-wing moral absolutist with no self-awareness or self-doubt, like *all* the hero characters Steve Ditko *wrote dialog for* as opposed to just drawing art for.
Ditko's ideology is so much embeded in materialism and capitalism that he shows greed and the want for profit as a huge flaw in his work. All I read here is someone not liking a man's idea and making it something it's not. Ditko was "pro industrial" even tho he clearly shows Jameson as Evil for the reason he doesn't hesitate to stomp on other people to get higher in his industry, hating Spider-Man because he shows him how wrong he was.
Ditko didn't just do the comic for a few months/issues or even just a year, he did for over 3 years. I think Objectivism very much values both ideas and manufacturing, love both Lee and Ditko a shame that they increasingly didn't get along but their joint product was great.
Jack Kirby entered Marvel with six completed pages featuring a Spider-Man who, as a boy with a magic ring, transformed into an adult Spider-Man equipped with a web gun. His costume bore similarities to Captain America. Both Steve and Jack reconstructed this from memory. Stan deemed the character too reminiscent of The Fly by Simon & Kirby and sought Steve Ditko’s assistance in reshaping the character into the familiar version we know today. Jack was only compensated as the cover artist for the iconic cover of Amazing #15. While Jack conceived it, Stan and Steve heavily revised it. Steve claims credit for the version that came to life, now acknowledged as a co-creator of Spider-Man alongside Stan. Jack is the one being excluded from the credit. Stan’s anecdote about witnessing a spider climbing a wall and saying, ‘Wouldn’t it be groovy to have a superhero who can climb up a wall?’ appears to be a fabricated story, lacking genuine inspiration.
Uh.. you know it's still disputed about this day and Mark Ditko (Steve's nephew) has talked about it and how he believes both Jack and Steve helped with the visual creation?
Jack Kirby retreaded The Fly and mixed it with Captain Marvel/Shazam (boy becomes adult hero via magic). What Stan Lee came up with (a guilt-ridden teenager who only learns to take social responsibility for the potential of his power to do good or allow evil after a personal tragedy) bears no resemblance to Kirby's idea other than that the webs come from a device instead of being an inherent ability. And Ditko would never have come up with a hero with feet of clay, because he expressly hated those and believed someone was either all-good or all-evil, with no gray areas. He did come up with a more compelling visual design for Spider-Man, but he hated everything about Stan Lee's ideas for Peter Parker, which is why he quit doing Spider-Man related work.
@@FilmFire96 there are many works of history that were researched and published in various books, using eyewitness testimony from former marvel staffers, who were witnesses to these events. It was either in the Steranko works or The Comics Journal library if I had to guess where I read this.
One of my friendships ended, partly because we worked on a project together. I reached out to him recently and we'll hopefully patch things up. It won't be the same, but at least there can be less animosity between us.
Ditko seems to have spent his life avoiding fame and publicity. If you do that, it's not fair to then complain that you didn't get enough fame and publicity.
Stan Lee is beyond wreckage. He is suffering to give credit to Kirby,Ditko which they truly deserves(even a lot more than him). "Cap America, Wolverine, Fantastic Four, Iron Man" where he is not creator, writer, penciller or anything, except publisher.. but give credit more to himself, "we" "we" "we did it". He is reason Kirby(The King), Ditko, and many left marvel. I really wish these legends living long and creating many more loved characters, but deep down I sense a pinch of relief that they are resting in peace, without seeing the atrocities done by Stan Lee, in the recent years, After they passed-on, he stole the whole credit, calling himself the sole creator of marvel, now saying "I" "I" "I did it". To the people who defend him by saying, 'he is a marketing/businessman type of guy." But you have to understand the difference btw "Selling the comic Vs. Selling away his co-workers/friends". He did the latter.
Stan lee was an asshole to those two guys... he should have gave them more credit, is just a scumbag way of doing things.. not that long ago i didint even know about Kirby and Ditko... is sad.
@AV Spider-man movies are made by sony/marvel is the sony and the movie directors like Sam Raimi who gave credit to Steve Ditko, and not Stan lee.. how can you be so stupid? Stan Lee always took all the credit for himself, like he made it all, and what he was really doing is basically editing some text on comics..
Sounds like, based in Stan's own words, that Steve created Spider-Man except the name, and Stan created the idea of having a character called Spider-Man.
Man's writes, my Spidey sense is tingling and gets all the credit lol. While drawers draw for days on end weeks on end and months on end. Just like any face or promotor usually the guy who has fuck all tallent gets all the credit.
Stan had a big ego and he believed the person that had the idea was the creator. That's arguable and most disagree. But it's his opinion. Steve Ditko had every right to whatever money and credit from Marvel he deserved as Spider-Man's co-creator but it really shouldn't have been important to him whether Stan considered him that. Stan was never going to see it his way.
I have an idea of a spaceship that travels to other universes. Does it mean I created it ? The answer is NO. The word, " considered" doesn't mean it's the co-cteator.
Stan Lee wrote Spider Man. Steve Ditko did the art. When I was growing up in the 90s, thoogh I never heard of Mr. Ditko, Stan alway refered himself as the co-creator. That's why I never believed the rumors because there all hear say or they're was a falling out and people reacted because of hurt feelings. In the end, it's all just talk
Stan was very generous about giving credit to his artists and he knew how important they were to sales of the Marvel magazines, but Stan Lee conceived of Spiderman and then hired Steve Ditko to do the artwork. Ditko's creativity contributed much to the character's popularity but Stan created Spiderman, and a lot of other successful characters too. Ditko could not come up with a hit character by himself. Ditko could have continued on Spiderman but he didn't want to and quit in a vindictive way that he hoped would hurt the magazine, but Stan made Spiderman even more successful with artist John Romita. Ditko was a difficult, misanthropic, resentful guy who couldn't handle his professional duties. Other than a few good things he did for Warren Ditko didn't have much success after that. He died in obscurity in a tiny apartment in NYC. Frustrated losers who feel cheated by life have made him their patron saint.
Love both Lee and Ditko (also love Romita), for something as visual as comics concept/writer and drawer are both hugely important and should be both recognized and appreciated.
This is the big difference between Stan Lee and Bob Kane (co creator of Batman) who took all the credit and never recognised or give Bill Finger credit for his batman sketches and the Joker creation. Stan lee knew Spiderman was gonna be a big thing in comics and yet gave credit where is credit is due.
The fact of the matter is Stan Lee was notorious for taking credit for things he didn't create especially Captain America in terms of Spider-Man he didn't come up with the idea They were so many other comic book writers as well as artist that came up with Spider-Man or variations of that character The one who made the character that we all know and love was Steve ditko slice it up however you want but a lot of people don't know that during this interview Stan Lee was supposed to have his lawyer with him why for the exact same reasons he would not go forth and use different language to give Steve ditko any type of legal leverage to have co-ownership because marvel wanted to have exclusive rights over the character Stanley is not a saint and he is not a just person He's a businessman and we should stop idolizing the businesses and corporations who own the characters and start championing the creators who get demonized by these corporations fans are so delusional but I guess it fits the character to live and delusion as long as it's blissful
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul
@@thegoddamnedbatman2138 You are WRONG ! Jack Kirby and Joe Simon created the character "The Fly" for Archie Comics 3 years before the creation of Spider-Man. "The Fly" is the story of an orphan teenager who lives with his uncles and with a magic ring he transforms into an adult super hero with the ability to walk up walls. Wait a minute, Stan Lee always said that he came with the idea of Spider-Man when he saw a fly on the wall of his office. Very weird isn't? Maybe he meant he saw "The Fly" in his office when Jack Kirby told him about the character that he created with Joe Simon 3 years before for Archie Comics.
Stan loves to say that without bringing up in some cases he didn't even have the idea for the story. The artists had to create plots and he would revise/ add the suggested dialogues later. Wally Wood quit from Daredevil after he saw he had done the whole story, Stan Lee came after the fact, changed two words and for credits as writer. And that was not a single example. There are several well known stories where Stan's involvement is minimal and on an editorial level not as a creative contributor. Famously Stan merely throw to Jack Kirby "make the Fantastic Four fight god". Kirby then created the whole story, the Watcher showing up, the first appearance of the Silver Surfer, the Galactus, everything, delivered the pages and Stan was "who is the surfer guy?" Kirby had to explain the whole story for him because he didn't have a clue what he was looking at. Stan could be a great editor, a great eye to what made stories work and sell, a great proselytizer of the medium and really pushed the stories to be adapted to other mediums. We wouldn't have the MCU today without him but he used to do this of getting credits he didn't deserve.
Stan Lee is not allowed to have his own opinion on his own character. Even when he gave Steve Ditko as much credit as he could in creating the look of Spiderman, it wasn't enough for Ditko or Stan Lee's critics. They wanted Stan Lee to Believe that Ditko had "cocreated the character along with him", and that just wasn't the case. Lee was not allowed to have his own memory and opinion of his own creation. Even Alan Moore fell into that camp; which is unfair.
I don't think it's entirely fair to judge Stan Lee with a 21st century understanding of who gets credit when society has changed so much since the 1960s. And Stan Lee was one of the people who advanced the idea that artist deserved more credit. In literature, editors do a hell of a lot to form stories and contribute ideas but are not given writing credit or copyright credit. Songwriters get credit, not instrumentalists, for music. These are the legal backgrounds that existed for the comics industry from the 1920s to 1960s. In this context, the writer and person who has the idea gets all the credit. The fact that the comics industry now recognizes artists the way it does is huge progress, but it isn't grounds to demonize the early days.
Except that's all bullshit. Superman was the very first Superhero ever created, in 1938. It has always been credited as a co-creation between the writer and the artist, right from Action Comics #1 and on. So, the concept co-creation in the comic book medium did not _just_ come about in the 21st century.
@@dandelion40k87 Uhh... you do realize you're just a pedantic little touch hole, right? But you are correct, of course. The Greek God Zeus was _actually_ the first superhero ever created! You're right about that, and I was technically wrong about Superman. And yet, nothing has changed. Because you do realize that whether or not you consider the pulp heroes that predate Superman -- such as The Phantom or The Shadow -- to be the very first superheroes ever created, it has nothing to do with the actual point I was making here at all anyway, right? Right. Superman _is_ the seminal character that kicked off the Golden Age of comics and the American superhero genre, and is the prototypical archetype that all the other subsequent superhero characters followed. Point is Superman predates Spider-Man, and his creation has always been acknowledged and credited as a co-creation. So, the concept of co-creation isn't something we _just_ came up with in the 21st century.
The question nowadays is, who is Spider-Man? I dig Miles Morales and a few of the other incarnations but, being on the south side of 40 years old, Peter Parker bit by a radioactive spider will always be Spider-Man to me. I understand Marvel is a business, owned by another business, owned by another business and profit is the order of the day but, let's take it easy on the overexposure of the "Spider-verse" pleeeease!!
Well, to be fair, Stan Lee started the creation even before Steve Dikto was involved, so Spider Man would exist even without Steve, however, Steve did help with the creation, so in a way, they are both right
@@TIMMUT17 yes, that's right. I'm just saying I understand what Stan Lee ment when he sometimes he said the person that has the idea is the real creator.
@@SuperSonicSquad you don't know that. Maybe it would, and even if it wasn't a success, does not change the fact that Stan Lee created it the character.
"I have always considered...", said Stan Lee in the letter. I mean no disrespect, but that seemed like a personal opinion, not a fact. It sould have been "Steve Ditko IS Spider- Man's co-creator". Of course, that's just semantics. But then again, language is responsible of how we perceive an idea... and the people who are behind it.
Watching this video, I can't help but wonder if Stan just told Ditko "make a comic about a Spider-Man", and if Ditko did all the hard work in Amazing Fantasy #15.
Stan is the creator The idea is the most important thing . Literly anything even scientific facts and knowlegde are based on ideas I am not insulting dirko but If you have the idea you can get the artist from everywhere
This situation and comic book creation is a bit more complex. Just Like in movies there are more than 1 people involved in the creation of something, more than 1 chef in the kitchen if you will! Also Ditko was the one who actually made the stories inside spiderman, where as stan lee only filled in the dialogue bubbles after ditko had already drawn the visual story. Ditko is officially and rightfully the co creator.
Originally, Jack Kirby claimed that he came up with the name Spider-man, while he was at MLJ Comics, while creating a new Superhero with Joe Simon. The Superhero name was later changed to The Fly, and later in 1960's, The Flyman!
At least Stan Lee owned up to his mistakes and was willing to be receptive of Steve Ditko's criticism. Unlike that dick Bob Kane who refused to acknowledge Bill Finger's contribution to Batman even after his death.
Not to anyone because it is only in the way Ditko drew it that it was successful. I think it would have been much more honorable for Ditko to be credited as the one who realized the idea. The public knows that in a creative process a superficial idea is just an input.🙂
@@Picuasco We absolutely cannot know if Ditko's art was the only factor in Spiderman's success. It is impossible to tell. But what we do know is the story of Spidey has stuck around much longer than the art, which most would consider outdated.
*Both* Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created Spider-Man. However, Stan Lee's role in the creation of the character is inarguably the most important, because without his role there wouldn't be a Spider-Man.
@SaintFort False. How much do you know about Steve Ditko? How much do you know about Spider-Man? Ditko wasn't just an artist, he was a writer too. He plotted the Spider-Man title by himself, with no input from Stan Lee, for almost the last half of their run, partly because Stan stopped talking to him when Ditko demanded writing credit. Up until that point they'd have story conferences where they'd flesh out the plot TOGETHER! He didn't just draw Spider-Man, nah, he was also deeply involved in building his mythology. Spider-Man wasn't created solely by Stan Lee, Steve Ditko or anyone else. Joe Simon originally conceptualized the idea for a character who would later become Spider-Man. Jack Kirby was involved in that process as well. Spider-Man wasn't created by any one person and came about through a collaborative effort that reshaped old ideas (Joe Simon's, Stan Lee's,) into entirely new ones (Steve Ditko). None of these characters would be who they are, who we know them to be, without the contributions of people like Steve Dikto, Joe Simon, Jack Kirby and others. Marvel wouldn't be the brand that it is without all of the stones that its legacy is built on. Stan Lee couldn't have accomplished it on his own. What good is an idea if you lack the imagination and creativity to bring it to fruition?! Lee needed the Marvel Method. To discount the importance of the role of Dikto, Kirby, etc in the creative process of these characters is criminal.
The idea for Spiderman was Jack Kirby's, the only aspect that was allegedly invented by Stan was the sticking to walls thing, the web shooting and the spider theme was Jack Kirby
@@SaintFort False. To say there would be a Spider-Man looking different makes it clear he wouldn't be Spider-Man anymore, because what he looks like defines, among other stuff, what he is. And the same can be said for all of those iconic characters. You CAN'T separate one from the other.
I don't think Ditko realizes he's the CO-creator. Co is the prefix for together. Meaning he's the second creator. It's not like Stan Lee's above him. Stan Lee looked at them as both creators. They both made the idea, both worked their "Merry Marvel Magic" and created the most famous character in the world.
Call me crazy but I think in order for this problem to be solved this situation that arises in the creative industry like comics a comic book should be done by one person. One person dreams up a character draws the character and does the lettering thus gets credit for every aspect of their creation. Does all the work that is needed in creating a comic book. Simple as that perhaps comic giants such as Marvel or DC should change their business tactics and everyone who is hired is a soul creator of their individual characters from illustrations to writing. In a sense McFarlane did this and he is a success story to this day all because he had a character named Spawn. The Marvel and DC executives don't do anything in terms of creative content. They handle the business selling the Marvel brand selling the DC brand. And the creators get all credit for their content under the umbrella of Marvel or DC. Their problem solved there won't be anymore feuds. Just my opinion.
Lee and Ditko are Both The Creators of Spider-Man. Ditko DEFINITELY Deserves More Credit, though. Both are Vital yet One was clearly Neglected in Credit and That’s not Okay.
So Stan Lee created it then, lol. its common sense, whoever comes up with the idea is the creator. Stan told Ditko and He drew up something and Stan was like yeah thats it or no, thats not quite it. its the same thing a producer does or a writer. Its George Lucas and Spielberg. It was an idea someone was going to have to draw anyway because Stan was lead editor, so someone was going to have to draw it , Kirby or Ditko or whomever and it showed up to Stan's satisfaction then u have a winner.
Stan Lee died an unrepentant credit thief all he did was spit out vague concepts while his artists did the rest of the work. the man believed he did enough work, just to spit out small concepts while everyone wrote and drew everything. I will respect Stan Lee as a marketer and a businessman. BUT NEVER AS A CREATOR
He seems genuine to me in thinking that the basic concept from himself was most important and yet also willing to see something in the other side, to think co-creator term is also fair.
Sorry Steve but this is what happens when you become publicity shy, don't give interviews or put yourself or word out there, nobody is going to know of your existence and thus your credit or contribution will go unoticed. Love to see how he would've faired nowadays in getting his work known.
The only reason the discussion is still going is because Spider-Man was successful. Stan said it best, he dreamed Spider-Man up and handed it off to be drawn, could have by anyone but it happened to be Steve and it happened to be successful. If it hadn't been successful, then he would have been the creator of something unsuccessful and the artist would never have been mentioned. Fair is fair, but times were different back then and Stan could have been an ass and said go suck on it but he didn't.
I can kind of understand Stan’s point of view to a degree even if I dont agree with him. If someone wrote a book and then someone drew one of the characters in the book based on how he had described them they wouldn’t then be considered the cocreator of that character. But I get it. Comics are different.
Ditko did waaay more than just draw Spidey. He plotted the stories, too!!! Visual storytelling is a far greater skill and contribution to the comic book genre, than merely scripting dialogue on a typewriter after seeing the whole story drawn out on paper...
Bro they both did only due to the thoughts process so like say Stan Lee was mediating and thought about hero's and lee and Steve actually were picking up on stuff that already exists so everything you ever thought had already exists either in mind and memories so like Spiderman and other hero's actually are a reality for some that travel and research our history even pass the bible you'll find the bible was made up from old text that originally came from a different star system, since our milkyway ain't even ours😂 it's eating another smaller one, anyway so even tho Stan Lee is a legend and even gave credit but due to today we only have videos of Stan that lift us up and have an impact even to this day, though his been gone for a while now his work lives on in others and now we can talk about multiverse stuff 😅
Also, Lee once stated in a interview on the Syfy Channel that he saw a fly crawling up a window, and that's where he got the idea for Spider-man. He later said he didn't remember saying this! ALSO, he claimed to have based Spider-man on a old pulp Superhero called The Spider: Master of Men. He wrote this In his book Origins of Marvel Comics. Go figure?!😂😄
1. He May forgot about it, i mean he was an old guy... 2. He May based him on the character not get the idea itself, for example if i had an idea to make a super hero that can fly and then inspire my own character from him
His mediocracy is showing all over the place no matter how much his hubris ego tries to hide. Shame on all his devils advocates.Thats why theyre called freaky geeks and fanboys.
Stan lee isnt describing it as it is, Ditko did not just draw it, he bassicaly came up with the entire concept Stan lee just came up with the name, lee also wrote spiderman stories which is important but he still steals credit a lot
Ditko outright said he doesn’t believe in flawed heroes. Does Ditko know the entire reason Spider-Man is loved is because he is a flawed hero? Stan Lee is the reason Spider-Man was a flawed person with a flawed life. Ditko hates grey characters yet ironically writes Mr A who is essentially an anti hero. Ditko was tone deaf on writing.
@@petermj1098 How is Mr. A an Anti-Hero? I'm reading it and never he comes across as Anti-Hero, unless you feel yourself uncomfortable with the idea that you might be one of the "grey area" ones. Spider-Man's sucess wasn't his flaw, it was the idea that out of the common he became exceptionnal and grew as a person from a boy to a man, Lee wanted Spidey to keep being a "kid" (leading to all those status quo BS we got for decades afterward and the "clownification" of the character alltogether) while Ditko understood that shall you become a man, you cannot go back to a boy and call it an evolution, a choice must be made consciously.
So by Stan’s logic, Steve Ditko is the creator of Dr. Strange.
Exactly !
Later in the credits of Doctor Strange...
Created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko.
Stan was a piece of s....
Actually he mentioned saying Doctor Strange was Steve ditko's idea but then he stole the credit by saying he was inspired by Chandu The Magician
@@programmer4690 You're an antisemitic piece of
@@AliFareedMC And you're just a lie spreading arab
@@programmer4690 You're an idiot
So Stan Lee had the concept and Ditko laid down the designs. Sounds like a co-creator to me.
Thats why stan lee wrote the letter in which he states that steve ditko is the co-creator
He only wrote it to shut Steve up. That's why when the interviewer pushed him and asks do agree he co created it Stan wouldn't even just on the video at a super old age with millions of dollars and fans say
"you know what it really was 50/50. I wrote the stories and ditko drew them. He draw something and I'd write off his idea, then I'd write an idea and he'd draw it. Spiderman wouldn't exist without me and him nor would the Marvel brand exist without all the artists that helped me 50/50, look at you Kirby".
He never said that ever. To hear any interview he gave the company, that was going bankrupt under his writing, wouldn't be where it's at today without his writing. He was a narcissist, but just a kind one who loved the fans and the medium. Guess if people kept telling me I was the man and the other teammates were all gone I might let it go to my head too.
@@gorsching But knowing how the Marvel Method works, did Stan really write anything? Stan The Conman did not do any storylines, he let Ditko do the stories with his panels and he filled in the word balloons with words. The Marvel Method, as Stan himself admits in his book The Origin Of Marvel Comics.
Also, it was Joe Simon who came up with the name Spiderman years before and Jack Kirby brought this up to Stan The Conman, Stan didn't even come up with the name! And in the last panel in Amazing Stories, the debute of Spiderman, Stan wrote the now famous line "With great power comes great responsibility" which he plagiarised from a speech Winston Churhill had made.
Stan was a great editor, and some said a great boss as he gave his artists free creative range over their stories, but I call him Stan The Conman because he took credit for their work.
Now if you want to call this 50/50 colaboration, so be it, I don't. However, Martin Goodman the publisher for then Marvel comics was even worse.
@@wiseguymaybe How is taking a certain line from Winston Churchill's speech considered plagiarism? By that logic, Churchill plagiarized the "with great power" line from Voltaire, the one who first coined the phrase, and George Lucas plagiarized George W. Bush when he had Anakin say, "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy." Plus, just because Stan Lee didn't originally coined the name "Spider-Man" doesn't mean he plagiarized the name either, there are many examples of characters in a comic publisher that share the same name of another character from another comic publisher, plus the name "Spider-Man" wasn't used for "The Fly" character anyways.
@@SpFlash1523 You may have a point on the plagiarism I don't think anyone is going to get sued over that, my example is how unoriginal Stan is, as for the name of Spiderman, it was Jack Kirby that came to Stan with that name, but really let's get away from that old arguement, and talk about Marvels first family The Fantastic Four, where Stan tells a real whooper for years about how he was going to get out of comics and write meaningful stories. not just comics, and his wife told him that he should write stories he wants to tell in the comic stories, and what did he have to lose, he was going to quite anyway. Sooo came the Fantastic Four, according to Stan.
Chris Tolworthy a writer who has studied Jack Kirby and knows his style well, believes, for good reason that Jack not only illustrate the FF but wrote the story and created the FF by himself. Why does he say that? Because of The Challengers Of The Unknow who Kirby had wrote and drew for DC comics. He says that the origin of the Challengers is the same to the FF's origin, to similiar and to much Kirby style, plus in issue 3 of The Challengers Of The Unknown Rocky. one of The Challengers is sent into space and comes back with super powers, being able to flame on, turn invisible, have super strength and grow large or small. This is long before FF. Plus Chis's dissecting of FF issue one, he sees the four character's personality of the early Challengers and of the FF to similiar. Even the first panel of the FF #1 is almost exact to a monster comic Kirby had done in the past.
After Jack left to go work for Marvel. those characters of Challengers Of The Unknown became more 2 dimensional and the stories more boring so the comic faded out eveintually. But those early issues with Jack Kirby behind the stories are something you should look into, just in case you don't believe Chris Tolworthy.
You should look into Chris's books they are very interesting. I doubt very much Stan was worried about writing more meaningful stories, as publisher Martin Goodman was about to stop publishing comics all together as they were doing poor in sale and concentrate on his men's magazine, which would have left Stan The Man in the cold and without a job. When Kirby returned there was a lot of excitement to have the old comic book pro back. The sales of the FF is what saved the comic book department, and it's amazing how Stan leaves that out of his stories of the origin of the FF. Never heard him say, "I saved Marvel Comics. "
Through it all, I still love Stan Lee. I just believe that Ditko deserves just as much credit given he physically brought the character to life while Lee was the writer and author of comics.
Yeah, exactly! Finally found someone knowing the job Ditko did but not hating Stan Lee in the comments.
It's arguable that Lee was the writer and author. Ditko and even Kirby had input on the initial ideas on the character. However, all credit to Lee for scripting and refining. But much of this could have been avoided if Lee gave credit proactively instead of reactively.
I used to as well but most of my respect for his is gone same with Albert Einstein that guy was a well known plagiarist in his time
And if you read the old Ditko/Lee spider-man comics, Lee's writing was god awful. Ditko really carried.
Lee would basically give them a prompt and a concept for the character and then the artists would basically do everything then he would look over it after they were done and edit some lines. Dude was a scumbag for basically taking credit for sole creating it.
If you have an idea but can't put it into practice and someone helps you make it a reality....guess what? They are equally responsible for it.
Stan hired his artists to make the characters he envisioned. It's no different than the Winklevoss Twins hiring Mark Zuckerberg to make their social network.
@@petermj1098 the twins got a settlement if I recall. Stan had an idea that others expanded. It was a collaboration effort. All involved deserved credit.
@@georgesalgado8783 Yes Stan is a co-creator with the other artists he worked with, I'm just tired of people hating on Stan like he stole all credit and didn't write the characters at all. Kirby and Ditko were hired for freelance. They always got credit but Marvel always had ownership of the characters. It was their mistake for not negotiating real ownserhip in the first place. Kirby and Ditko also had creative differences. Ditko was more interested in making Ayn Rand Objectivist characters. Kirby was more interested in making cosmic/God-related characters. Stan was interested in making humans with personal struggles while being superheroes.
@@petermj1098 oh don't get me wrong I adore Stan Lee. He was essential as were the rest. What you say about negotiating ownership is 100% true. It reminds me of what happened to Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster with Superman but publishing companies back then didn't budge on such things.
Kind of a Marxist viewpoint if you ask me.
Stan Lee = Steve Jobs
Steve Ditko = Steve Wozniak
Stan = Steve
Steve = Steve
2:24 This long silence speaks volumes.
He's choosing his words very wisely
@@pats3212 Because it would have legal repercussions
Whatever the debate,Steve's costume design is still a masterpiece.when I first saw Spider-Man costume in cartoon I was surprised as who would have created these design?because it was so unique,different and special.Glad I get to know the name behind this genius work
My understanding is that Jack Kirby designed Spider-man's costume. Stan gave Jack the character first, and when Jack's drawings came back with the character looking too powerful Stan gave it to Steve instead so Spider-man would look more "everyman". You can find Jack's original drawing online.
Stan was acting like Norman Osborn in this interview
A minute into this video and I have already found the flaw in Stan’s logic. He says; “the person who came up with the idea first is the creator” but that is not really the whole truth. If that were the case, then by his own admission Stan Lee would not have created Thor for example. The Scandinavian’s would have creator credit because they “came up with the idea first”! My belief is that both Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created Spider-Man. There is no “I” involved. Both men were doing half of one person’s job.
The idea of Spider-Man came from Kirby.
He pitched the idea to Stan Lee.
Even Steve Ditko confirmed that.
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 But that does not make him the sole “creator” of Spider-Man. Co-creator definitely but not “The creator”. If you go around saying you’re the creator of something then people will assume you did 100% of the job bringing that idea into existence and you overshadow other’s people’s work, such as Steve Ditko’s.
@@redzO9 I'm making a reference of what you said...if Stan Lee says, "the person who came up with the idea first is the creator" if that were the case then Jack Kirby is the creator of Spider-Man because he had the idea first.
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 Sorry, I misread.
And can be said about Doctor strange, where it was did go that pitched the idea of Doctor strange. Stan only just adjusted the name from Mr strange to doctor
so by this logic stan lee didn't create doctor strange. i wonder if he would be okay with admitting that
Exactly!
The worse part is that in the credits of Doctor Strange Stan Lee's name appears before Steve Ditko.😥
Stan lee fucked kids and stole credit and betrayed the real creators. He’s a lieing minipulating piece of fucking shit and I’m glad he’s burning in hell.
@@programmer4690 in the abstract, Dr. Strange is a case where I could actually see the artist’s name come before the writer’s. But simply put this is print media and the convention is that the writer/editor is credited first. The Marvel Method was a frankly unprecedented form of storytelling, which I think Stan did his best to acknowledge through the variety of credit descriptors as the titles progressed, those were always changing, the first D.Strange was
“Story: Stan Lee
Art: Steve Ditko
Lettering: Terry Szenics”
Then for a few issues it was
“Written by...
Drawn by...
Lettered by...”
Then ‘drawn’ became ‘illustrated’ and with his seventh issue (Strange Tales #118, I happen to have my Omnibus on me😘), we begin the tradition of adding flourish to the credits:
“Written by Magical Stan Lee
Drawn by Mystical Steve Ditko
Lettered by Mysterious S. Rosen.”
Which soon becomes things like
“Story conjured up by:
Illustrated by the strange sorcery of:
Lettered at midnight by: ...”
“Though there be many writers, none but
*Stan Lee* could have penned this tale!
Though there be many artists, none but
*Steve Ditko* could have drawn this tale!
Though there be many letterers, none but
*Artie Simek* was available when we needed him!”
“Strange is this script by: Stan Lee!
Awesome is this art by: Steve Ditko
Lilting is this lettering by: S. Rosen!”
“Written by Marvel’s
own living legend,
Stan Lee
Illustrated by Marvel’s
unsung genius,
Steve Ditko
Lettered by Marvel’s
own beaming pixie,
Artie Simek”
Notice any patterns? The first two are hyped up (in the style of the Strange scripts) and then the third position is humorously denigrated for his doing relatively menial labor in this most creative of processes. You can tell it’s three guys made this comic each time, and it’s basically no secret how it’s done. Moreover you can feel it, you can recognize Lee’s hilariously articulate/overly direct/unmistakably verbose voice a mile away, Ditko’s art is absolutely untouched in my eyes, I could not possibly lavish enough praise on this man. He deserved statues, museums, ships named in his honor. But isn’t that obvious from reading it? Isn’t it clear that both creators had a hand on the wheel? But you get to a certain point in Strange where it doesn’t matter what synopsis Lee is giving Ditko if any, the “story” as it were rests in the visual dimension. At which point, when we meet Eternity, the credits finally introduce the keyword ‘plot,’ becoming
“Written and Edited
with amazing acumen by:
*Stan Lee*
Plotted and Illustrated
with Artistic Aplomb by:
*Steve Ditko*
Lettered and bordered
with Ruler and Pen by:
Artie Simek”
But even then it keeps changing, they are trying to describe or get right what the roles are here but like I said it’s new territory in printing. There weren’t credits of _any kind_ when Ditko was at Charlton! He had to scrawl his name in the corner! So isn’t it perfectly fair when his comic, the pincer duel with Dormammu, now reads
“Script: Stan Lee
Art: Steve Ditko
Lettering: S. Rosen
(What more could you ask for?)”
Or the next even more aggressively favorable division in the very next issue
“Dialogue and Captions: Stan Lee
Plot and Artwork: Steve Ditko
Lettering and More Lettering: Artie Simek”
Lee begins to move out of the writer’s role
“Eerily Edited by... Stan Lee
Spookily Scripted by... Dennis O’Neil
Demonically Drawn by... Steve Ditko
Laconically Lettered by... Artie Simek”
And for _The End-- At Last!_ you get your wish, he’s ahead of the scriptor, but alas, not the editor...
“Edited by the
Enchanter--
Stan Lee
Penciled & Inked by the
Prestidigitator--
Steve Ditko
Scripted by the
Sorcerer--
Dennis O’Neil
Lettered by the
Letterer--
Artie Simek”
This has been a presentation of the changes in authorship-credit format at Marvel from 1963-1966. I hope I have shown the spirit with which Lee and Ditko _split and shared_ credit for the ongoing creation of Doctor Strange. They tried to get across to the readers who was responsible for what, and I think they succeeded wonderfully. Stan Lee, that is-as it was him who *wrote* the credits after all, wasn’t it? 😏
Okay Stan Lee may had the idea and that (that deserve a lot of credit itself, that it's true) but the real problem is that Steve Ditko die really poor and in a very deplorable condition, he was a real genius that wasn't recompensate fairly
Stan Lee having the idea of Spider-Man is very debatable.
Evidence points to another man....
Jack Kirby.
Ditko became poor for a lot more reasons than just not getting enough credit for spider-man. It was a lot of his OWN decisions that lead to that. He began hating people in general and had no contacts or friends, and quit marvel by himself. We can't even know the date of his death because no one notice until DAYS after it happened. His poverty is solely his fault considering the talent he had and the jobs he could've accepted.
@jokx4409 exactly. Ditko quit and published some comics on his own which werent big hits. He also purposefully hid his identity
@@jokx4409 He had a lot of contact with his immediate family. But this information didn't come out until after his death when his relatives revealed this to the public.
Remember it was all a team effort, the ideas shared, dialogue, the art and then the execution from all sides shared.
Say what you want about Stan getting all the credit but at least he wasn't bob Kane. Dude legitimately denied batman co creator bill finger from getting all credits and recognition even after the guy died. At the very least Stan admitted credit to Steve
AND, Batman was a blatant ripoff of The Shadow.
Stan Lee took WAY too much credit for characters that were either co created by him or truthfully were overwhelmly down to others.
He was positioned as the face of Marvel but the truth is Marvel, DC and other companies have been making millions out of characters while their original creators have been paid ZERO.
They KNOW FULL WELL they're rewriting and stealing royalities that should be someone else's.
So many things have come and gone through the years, these characters could have easily died out if there weren’t new people revitalising them constantly especially in recent years, it is past comic writers and artists now and much bigger than it ever was due to people revitalising these characters. The people who created the characters shouldn’t just get royalties for a different product. That’s like saying I made and featured on a song on someone’s album so I should get royalties for every album they make now
Everyone's missing one thing: By his own admission, Stan confirms that Ditko was right in saying Stan was hedging symantically on giving credit! Ditko was an absolutist, and BS word-parsing insulted him! That's exactly what Stan Lee did. Nothing's worse than it you feel like you earned something, and it's given to you like it was placating, insincere charity. "Okay, if it'll make you feel better, here's your paycheck." Really? Ditko nailed it, and Stan never fessed up completely. Our loss.
It seems clear that Dr. Strange was more Steve Ditko's creation, he came up with the lion's share of the world, the different dimensions of the strip. He didn't invent the idea of the 'astral plane' obvs but the specific visuals of it in Dr. Strange, pure Ditko!
This is the most aggressive I've seen Stan Lee get. It reminds me of when Bob Kane was on Lee's program Comic Book Greats and they started talking about Jerry Robinson. Any wonder why Lee & Kane were such good friends.
Really took me aback to see him drop the nice old man persona and act a bit more aggressive.
@@dericmederos1514 same here.
Apparently even Stan was embarrassed of Bob Kane. When the two went out for dinner, he would always get embarrassed when Bob went out of his way to tell everyone in the room that he created Batman.
@@Eviyl it was only when Bob when Bob told everyone he created Batman and offered the waiters an illustration that Stan was embarrassed by Bob. Outside of that the two were great friends, Bob took stan on limousine rides to see the Batman movies, and Stan was saddened by the fact that Bob didn't live long enough to do the same for Bob with the Spider-Man movies.
@@Eviyl liars of a feather flock together
I agree with Stan here. Think of Isao Takahata for instance. He doesn’t do anything part from having ideas and telling other people what to do and he still is the creator. That’s what an artist do. Comes up with artistic ideas.
Same dude
Stan’s idea for the character changed comics, and Steve’s costume design goes unrivaled all these years later. I believe they deserve equal praise.
I watched this documentary six years ago. It was so eye opening, steve ditko, while not treated as unjustly as Bill Finger, still got a poor deal. They both led tragic lives after giving the world two of the greatest super heroes known to man.
Stan Lee is about as honest a "creator" as Bob Kane... Lee just had a very slightly, guiltier conscious in hindsight.
Kirby, Ditko, et al probably had more of a problem with the fact that Stan Lee was a company man. He worked for Marvel, or was involved with Marvel, pretty much his entire life. All his answers to the creation of characters take into consideration that he was defending Marvel's legal stance, as well as the stance he must take as a condition of the contract(s) he had with Marvel over the decades.
Which is weird because Allen Moore actually fully knows this yet still gripes about it. Like he fully knows that Stan is doing the legally viable yet considerate thing and still goes "but he won't fully say it". People gotta let go of their hang ups
@@PrincessNine Of course not. Alan Moore doesn’t value the company image the way that somebody like Stan does. He’s an artist, not a businessman. He worked for the big publishers and they screwed him out of his work. Do you really expect him to respect Lee for toeing the line?
Moore is interested in the moral dilemma. If you were to ask him, I have no doubt that he would acknowledge that there was a legal imperative for Stan to maintain the company’s official version of events. I also imagine he would consider it a cowardly justification for bending the truth.
It’s ultimately a difference of worldview.
Love both of them, both pretty hardheaded but they both have valid, understadnable points/perspectives, I think they both were and should be recognized as co-creators of the character.
This is similar to the debate of who is more important, the person who creates an idea or the person who has the vision to market it to the masses. Consider Apple computer. Steve Wozniak designed and built the first Apple computer for his own benefit in his garage and when Steve Jobs saw it, he had a vision of everyone having a personal computer at home. So who should get more credit? The answer, IMO, is they deserve equal credit. You can't have one without the other. So credit to Stan Lee for his idea of a Spider-Man character and credit to Steve Ditko for bringing that idea to life. Team effort!!
The proof of Stan's disingenuousness is right there in his words. He repeatedly says "Steve thinks he created it because he DREW it". But that's a conscious effort to minimize Steve's role in having DESIGNED the character. Steve didn't merely draw a thing that Stan invented all by himself. Stan didn't design the costume. Reportedly Stan also didn't create the powers either besides maybe "he can stick to walls". Other reports indicate that originally Stan had Jack Kirby working on it and Jack had basically retooled his character The Fly and Peter Parker was a kid with a magic ring that would transform him into an adult hero wearing a very Captain America-like outfit with a gun that shot webs. Comparing that with what Ditko did pretty much shows where the holes in Stan's "creation" were.
Even the name "Spider-Man" is attributed to Jack as one he'd tried to sell to the Archie Comics publisher years earlier but they rejected it and went with The Fly instead. To me, the final nail in the coffin of Stan's supposed creative genius is the simple fact that somehow, even though Stan started in comics in the early 1940's, his only major creative streak was when he was working with Steve and Jack. He has no characters to speak of either before or after Jack was involved, unless you consider Striperella to be worth mentioning. Meanwhile, both Jack and Steve continued to produce innovative character concepts for decades after their stint with Stan.
Stan created Matt Murdock/Daredevil, Karen Page, Foggy Nelson, Wilson Fisk/Kingpin, Mary Jane Watson, Robbie Robertson, Sam Wilson/The Falcon, Purple Man, Hawkeye, Groot, She Hulk, Mar-Vell, Black Knight, without Kirby or Ditko.
It seems people hating Stan simply because he isn’t a artist more than anything. Kirby’s sole creations more about god and cosmic beings as Ditko were more darker characters. When they worked with Stan they made human characters that were more upbeat. I really don’t how see Stan didn’t write the stories when they worked for him.
Stan doesn't get criticized for not being an artist, he gets criticized for overstating his contribution and acting like he is being magnanimous by allowing the artists a co-creator credit. You're right, Stan "created" all those other characters without Jack and Steve, he "created" them with other artists and they are clearly vastly inferior concepts compared with what he did with Jack and Steve, which reinforces my point. But you're right, Stan gave the characters their personalities through the dialog he wrote. That is definitely true. I would never say that Jack and Steve could've created the Marvel universe as we know it without Stan's involvement. it's a question of degrees.
If you can't see how Stan didn't write those stories, I guess it depends on your definition of "writing". Stan has said himself that the way the books were done is he would have a plot meeting with the artist and together they'd hash out the main story points for the next issue, resulting in a few sentences worth of information. (I've seen interviews with artists who stated that these meetings sometimes consisted of Stan staring at them until they came up with a plot on their own) Then the artist would go back to his studio and work out how those few lines of notes from the meeting would become a story as they drew the pages.
Then Stan would take those pages, and using the rough dialog provided by the artist as a guide, he would fill in the dialog. (Clearly improving it vastly if you compare with the dialog Jack and Steve wrote themselves later in their careers) This is why after the first few issues of Spider-Man, Ditko started receiving a credit for plotting (which he demanded Stan give him) and with the Fantastic Four you'll notice that there were no art/writing credits at all, it was just noted as having been created by Stan and Jack (which Jack agreed to after bristling at Stan giving himself a solo writing credit). Wally Wood famously quit working at Marvel specifically because he felt he was being ripped off by Stan due to Stan giving himself writing credit (and pay!) for stories that Wally had essentially written except for the final dialog.
@@stevewik2280 Yeah Zuckerberg programmed Facebook but he wouldn’t have programmed it without the Winklevoss Twins and Divya Narendra hiring him to make THEIR idea of a social network. Yeah Ditko and Kirby designed the characters but they wouldn’t have designed it without Stan hiring them to make HIS idea of for superheroes.
It seems to me - for example, Stan basically told Ditko “I want to make a superhero who is a teen and dresses like a Spider. Make a design for him.” And Ditko would keep making draft after draft until we get the Spider-Man look Stan liked the most - which is the Spider-Man look we know today. Same goes with other characters he did with Ditko and Kirby. Obviously Kirby came up with Galactus’s iconic head and design but Stan is the one who told him to make a god-like planet eating villain in the first place inspiring him to make the look.
Just because Stan didn’t exactly have every characters LOOKS in mind doesn’t mean he didn’t have their CHARACTER in mind. Him having their CHARACTER in mind from the start gives himself the right to be called a creator.
Stan never stripped away Kirby’s and Ditko’s name as a creator unlike Bob Kane stripped Bill Finger’s name as a creator of Batman for years - which is literally taking credit for writing.
@@petermj1098Exactly
Stan would have a better argument if he wrote out the script, but he didn't. Just by the nature of how these were created, it was a collaborative process and both can rightfully consider themselves creators of the character.
Just came from an Alan Moore video talking about this interview. While Stan Lee had some questionable practices, I feel like Moore really misrepresented this interview. I also agree with Stan that since he thought it up, Spider-Man was his creation, although Steve should also get credit since he fleshed it out, much like how Bill Finger did with Batman after Bob Kane thought him up.
And that's why I love Stan Lee, he just doesn't take the credit and run with it, he lets you know there was a story behind it and these are the people
Now he does, back then it wasn't the case.
@@georgeliquor1236 Yes it was
unlike bob kane
Ut he did haha what are you talking about?
@@joshuacaceres9960 please tell me, show me where he denies his involvement? Lol hes even credited with Lee during the movie intro lol, grow up lil kids 🤣
Give it to anybody to draw it ? Really ? No wonder Stan Lee and Bob Kane were such good friends . Stan isn't around now but I always thought he was a little off if you know what I mean . When I saw him on the cartoon shows as a kid I thought something ain't right with this one . People who don't give credit to someone else's work and hog all the credit for themselves is pretty deplorable to say the least . Sure Stan had the idea but without the costume there's not much to look at .
Stan Lee had not the idea.
The idea came from Jack Kirby.
Not only that, Jack Kirby and Joe Simon created a similar character called "The Fly" for Archie Publications 3 years before Spider-Man was created.
"The Fly" is the story of an orphan teen who lives with his uncles and transforms into a super heroe with the ability to walk up walls.
The most shocking thing is Stan Lee always said that he came with the idea of Spider-Man when he saw a fly on the wall of his office.....
Yeah right!
It seems Stan saw "The Fly" of Jack Kirby in his office. 😄
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 Thanks for the information , here's something you may want to watch . th-cam.com/video/ST5WwIFo1TM/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=NerdSync
@@bryandonahue5446 Thanks I watched the video and I already knew about the SpiderMan costume created by the company Ben Cooper.
That proves that the Spider-Man name existed even before Spider-Man.
Also..Did you know that ."The Fly" character that I mentioned created in 1959 by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby is a reworked idea of Silver Spider?
"Silver Spider" is a concept created in 1954 by Captain America creator Joe Simon.
The concept was rejected by the company Harvey Comics.⁸
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 No I didn't know these things , just stumbled on all this information recently . ( I have been aware of Bill Finger being basically ripped off for quite awhile ) Back to Spider- Man I think the Ben Cooper design is just too similar to be coincidence . The behind the scenes stories I been watching lately would make a good movie especially since we are being bombarded with comic book movies as of late . I'll be looking into ' The Fly " next . Thanks again for the info , you certainly know your stuff .
Stan did give credit though! Every single spider man movie, cartoon, etc has Steve Ditkos name on it.
The basic idea and name came from Jack Kirby's the SilverSpider/Spiderman, which Stan Lee took to Steve Ditko to develop.
No, different character with different powers....
"I still don't know whose idea was Spider-Man."-Steve Ditko.
@@PauloJrchannel Did he actually said that or was that taken out of context? Cause Jack drew a very early version for the character that wasn't named like that yet.
@@al112v4 Source: Strange and Stranger: The World of Steve Ditko (2008)
Whether it was out of context or not, I can't tell.
@@Venom96930 It was a spider themed kid that shot webs from a gun, it's essentially a proto Spiderman, Stan only allegedly came up with the sticking to walls part, and Ditko gave him the iconic aesthetic that made him popular
Come on, Stan. I can’t be a ‘true believer’ of this bs.
The comics industry wouldn't be where it is without him...I just wish he elevated his co-creators more often.
A lot of those ideas were ideas that were workshopped and changed and morphed throughout the years by different people. Spider-Man went through a few phases (possibly with some ideas from Kirby) before Ditko and Lee got on it and fine-tuned it. It wasn't just one man having a spark and creating gold. Additionally, a lot of these ideas were very rough until other creators reworked and revamped them into what we know today (Steranko on Nick Fury, with influence from Jack Kirby; Len Wein, Dave Cockrum, Chris Claremont, and John Byrne on the X-Men; Wally Wood's art on Daredevil, etc).
Even Jack Kirby and Joe Simon had to contend with the idea that the Shield and other patriotic heroes debuted before Captain America, but what they did with the character is what made Cap stand out.
Lee was a great editor, in that he took ideas and refined them, but most accounts say he wasn't the progenitor of many of these ideas. Though, again, this doesn't take away for how he avocated for comics or take away from possibly improving the initial ideas. It's just a reminder that he should've spent more time emphasizing the collaborative part of comics making (which to be fair, he did in some interviews, and, comparatively, he did far more than Bob Kane ever did).
You're antisemitic
God Bless these amazing minds!
It’s like a song. Someone creates the music and the other writes the lyrics.
Stan Lee had such an ego he could never admit that anyone other than himself had been the Marvel genius that was responsible for ALL the early comic success.
I always tell everyone. Look at Stan Lee before Kirby. Look at Stan Lee after Kirby. Now Look at Kirby before Stan Lee and Look at Kirby after Stan Lee. Steve Ditko wasn't a slouch either just the argument about who did what is even more tipped towards Kirby than what Ditko gets. It's just Stan Lee had a huge voice being the editor for yrs and when Kirby died Ditko stayed away. That left Lee being the only one to say what he did and no one could say no. And no one wanted to because he was an old man who was extremely charismatic and passionate about the comic book medium
I think steve def shouldve gotten more credit because Spiderman is obviously a very popular character and that is not just because of the story but his looks.
Its important to make someone unique, stand out and recogonizable immediately so that it can be popular character. The ones who dont even watch marvel or read Marvel still recognise spidey almost immediately because steve gave him such a unique look. And these are the ppl who dont rly know spidey'story.
I do think Steve should have gotten much, much more credit since he's the one who brought the Spider-Man characters to life and was the one who designed them. I also do think that it's perfectly normal for one person doing the writing of a comic book/graphic novel and the other doing the illustrations, same with certain children books too, so I think Stan and Steve both had their parts in the Spider-Man books.
In my opinion, I think both the writer and artist are the ones who create a certain idea, not just one or the other, because one person comes up with the characters, settings, backstories, etc. while the artist is the one who brings those characters and settings to life, so both Lee and Ditko are amazing creators and do their parts in making a comic book the way it is. Again, that's just my personal opinion.
I think mangaka have solved this problem
Guys, Stan is just a man, he's not a all-fair and just superhuman. He has flaws of his own, flaws like jealousy and pride like any other man. But he's also tried to fix his mistakes and admits when he's wrong. Just because he was a little bit prideful over his co-creations doesn't make him a horrible person.
A little bit prideful it's a masive understatement, almost as big as stan's ego
@@Y2M4444 Not even close
@@Y2M4444 atleast he's not in the level of Bob Kane,
Which isn't really a compliment Now that I think about it🤣
He shows remorse over how the situation was handled while admitting he should have given Ditko a bit more credit than he did, even if he still considers himself the main creator. I think that's the best you can really ask for, and it's unrealistic to expect Stan to be some perfect embodiment of humanity. He still comes off as a nice, down-to-earth guy, that doesn't mean he's without flaws.
@@Y2M4444 never
That was a struggle to get through haha.
Fanboys don't wanna see it. You love the PERSONA of Stan. But he didn't even write. Shooter recently admitted he plotted the Sixties Silver Surfer series. Come on.
Yeah, every time I've tried to criticise stan fan boys get so angry, one even said to me that he's dead so I shouldn't criticise him... but how he handled most things was awful... I've even heard that the whole spider man thing damaged Steve Ditko's mental health as he got older
Stan Lee originally went to Jack Kirby to draw Spider-Man but wasn't keen on the art ideas Jack presented, so he gave Steve Ditko a chance at it,. and preferred his design. And Steve Ditko did contribute plot ideas.
That said, Ditko presented plot ideas because he had an obsession with pushing his Objectivist political/social views through his comic book work whenever possible. He quickly lost interest in projects where he wasn't allowed to push his agenda through the mouthpieces of his characters. He left Spider-Man because Stan Lee's dialog often contradicted the ideas Ditko was trying to push through his art, so he got frustrated by not being able to push Ayn Rand's dreck, and left in a huff. He also often refused to cash checks for work he felt didn't match what he wanted to have put out, as a form of masochistic silent protest.
Ditko's Objectivist philosophy, with its emphasis on materialism and capitalism, also informed his notion that the person with the idea is worthless, while the person who manufactures the product is all-important. Of course, he ignored that Stan Lee wrote the words, and that people inked, colored, and lettered the pages other than himself. But since comics are a mixture of art and text, it was stupid and hypocritical of Ditko to discount Stan Lee as a 'worthless' idea man and himself as the 'creator' of the comic pages. Without Stan Lee, with Ditko scripting, Peter Parker would have come across as a cold, pro-industrialist, right-wing moral absolutist with no self-awareness or self-doubt, like *all* the hero characters Steve Ditko *wrote dialog for* as opposed to just drawing art for.
This was insightful. Ayn Rand did so much damage.
Ditko's ideology is so much embeded in materialism and capitalism that he shows greed and the want for profit as a huge flaw in his work. All I read here is someone not liking a man's idea and making it something it's not. Ditko was "pro industrial" even tho he clearly shows Jameson as Evil for the reason he doesn't hesitate to stomp on other people to get higher in his industry, hating Spider-Man because he shows him how wrong he was.
Ditko didn't just do the comic for a few months/issues or even just a year, he did for over 3 years. I think Objectivism very much values both ideas and manufacturing, love both Lee and Ditko a shame that they increasingly didn't get along but their joint product was great.
Jack Kirby entered Marvel with six completed pages featuring a Spider-Man who, as a boy with a magic ring, transformed into an adult Spider-Man equipped with a web gun. His costume bore similarities to Captain America. Both Steve and Jack reconstructed this from memory. Stan deemed the character too reminiscent of The Fly by Simon & Kirby and sought Steve Ditko’s assistance in reshaping the character into the familiar version we know today. Jack was only compensated as the cover artist for the iconic cover of Amazing #15. While Jack conceived it, Stan and Steve heavily revised it. Steve claims credit for the version that came to life, now acknowledged as a co-creator of Spider-Man alongside Stan. Jack is the one being excluded from the credit. Stan’s anecdote about witnessing a spider climbing a wall and saying, ‘Wouldn’t it be groovy to have a superhero who can climb up a wall?’ appears to be a fabricated story, lacking genuine inspiration.
What's your source on this?
Uh.. you know it's still disputed about this day and Mark Ditko (Steve's nephew) has talked about it and how he believes both Jack and Steve helped with the visual creation?
Jack Kirby retreaded The Fly and mixed it with Captain Marvel/Shazam (boy becomes adult hero via magic). What Stan Lee came up with (a guilt-ridden teenager who only learns to take social responsibility for the potential of his power to do good or allow evil after a personal tragedy) bears no resemblance to Kirby's idea other than that the webs come from a device instead of being an inherent ability. And Ditko would never have come up with a hero with feet of clay, because he expressly hated those and believed someone was either all-good or all-evil, with no gray areas. He did come up with a more compelling visual design for Spider-Man, but he hated everything about Stan Lee's ideas for Peter Parker, which is why he quit doing Spider-Man related work.
@@FilmFire96 there are many works of history that were researched and published in various books, using eyewitness testimony from former marvel staffers, who were witnesses to these events. It was either in the Steranko works or The Comics Journal library if I had to guess where I read this.
ok here's my two cents to me it doesn't matter who created it cuz creating a story is a team effort stan had the idea and stve put that idea on paper
It sucks when money is involve friendships get torn apart
One of my friendships ended, partly because we worked on a project together. I reached out to him recently and we'll hopefully patch things up. It won't be the same, but at least there can be less animosity between us.
Ditko seems to have spent his life avoiding fame and publicity. If you do that, it's not fair to then complain that you didn't get enough fame and publicity.
Stan Lee's hedging on giving Ditko co creator credit and being patronizing in this interview shows why Kirby and Ditko hated this guy with a passion.
Stan Lee is beyond wreckage. He is suffering to give credit to Kirby,Ditko which they truly deserves(even a lot more than him).
"Cap America, Wolverine, Fantastic Four, Iron Man" where he is not creator, writer, penciller or anything, except publisher.. but give credit more to himself, "we" "we" "we did it". He is reason Kirby(The King), Ditko, and many left marvel. I really wish these legends living long and creating many more loved characters, but deep down I sense a pinch of relief that they are resting in peace, without seeing the atrocities done by Stan Lee, in the recent years, After they passed-on, he stole the whole credit, calling himself the sole creator of marvel, now saying "I" "I" "I did it".
To the people who defend him by saying, 'he is a marketing/businessman type of guy." But you have to understand the difference btw "Selling the comic Vs. Selling away his co-workers/friends". He did the latter.
Cool stan we’ll always be my fav hero
@The Creature did that actually happen
So basically Stan screw them both
Stan lee was an asshole to those two guys... he should have gave them more credit, is just a scumbag way of doing things.. not that long ago i didint even know about Kirby and Ditko... is sad.
@AV Spider-man movies are made by sony/marvel is the sony and the movie directors like Sam Raimi who gave credit to Steve Ditko, and not Stan lee.. how can you be so stupid? Stan Lee always took all the credit for himself, like he made it all, and what he was really doing is basically editing some text on comics..
Sounds like, based in Stan's own words, that Steve created Spider-Man except the name, and Stan created the idea of having a character called Spider-Man.
Man's writes, my Spidey sense is tingling and gets all the credit lol. While drawers draw for days on end weeks on end and months on end. Just like any face or promotor usually the guy who has fuck all tallent gets all the credit.
Stan had a big ego and he believed the person that had the idea was the creator. That's arguable and most disagree. But it's his opinion. Steve Ditko had every right to whatever money and credit from Marvel he deserved as Spider-Man's co-creator but it really shouldn't have been important to him whether Stan considered him that. Stan was never going to see it his way.
I have an idea of a spaceship that travels to other universes.
Does it mean I created it ?
The answer is NO.
The word, " considered" doesn't mean it's the co-cteator.
Stan Lee wrote Spider Man. Steve Ditko did the art.
When I was growing up in the 90s, thoogh I never heard of Mr. Ditko, Stan alway refered himself as the co-creator. That's why I never believed the rumors because there all hear say or they're was a falling out and people reacted because of hurt feelings. In the end, it's all just talk
Steve Ditko also wrote that comic.
In fact there was a time when Ditko wrote alone the Spider-Man comics and Stan Lee only edited the dialogs.
Stan was very generous about giving credit to his artists and he knew how important they were to sales of the Marvel magazines, but Stan Lee conceived of Spiderman and then hired Steve Ditko to do the artwork. Ditko's creativity contributed much to the character's popularity but Stan created Spiderman, and a lot of other successful characters too. Ditko could not come up with a hit character by himself. Ditko could have continued on Spiderman but he didn't want to and quit in a vindictive way that he hoped would hurt the magazine, but Stan made Spiderman even more successful with artist John Romita. Ditko was a difficult, misanthropic, resentful guy who couldn't handle his professional duties. Other than a few good things he did for Warren Ditko didn't have much success after that. He died in obscurity in a tiny apartment in NYC. Frustrated losers who feel cheated by life have made him their patron saint.
Love both Lee and Ditko (also love Romita), for something as visual as comics concept/writer and drawer are both hugely important and should be both recognized and appreciated.
This is the big difference between Stan Lee and Bob Kane (co creator of Batman) who took all the credit and never recognised or give Bill Finger credit for his batman sketches and the Joker creation. Stan lee knew Spiderman was gonna be a big thing in comics and yet gave credit where is credit is due.
no difference
they were both frauds who only bent to the anger of the people they screwed over
Stan had to much of an ego I think they both deserve credit
He definitely obviously has a lot of ego and yet was also willing to give/share credit.
@@suarezguy yeah he was an odd fellow
The fact of the matter is Stan Lee was notorious for taking credit for things he didn't create especially Captain America in terms of Spider-Man he didn't come up with the idea They were so many other comic book writers as well as artist that came up with Spider-Man or variations of that character The one who made the character that we all know and love was Steve ditko slice it up however you want but a lot of people don't know that during this interview Stan Lee was supposed to have his lawyer with him why for the exact same reasons he would not go forth and use different language to give Steve ditko any type of legal leverage to have co-ownership because marvel wanted to have exclusive rights over the character Stanley is not a saint and he is not a just person He's a businessman and we should stop idolizing the businesses and corporations who own the characters and start championing the creators who get demonized by these corporations fans are so delusional but I guess it fits the character to live and delusion as long as it's blissful
Well he is Whoish what did you expect? They've been doing that for thousands of years.
And Marvel just announced a documentary on Stan Lee in Disney+. None of the fanfare for Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko
@@mikethaison432 what is a Whoish?
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul
Uh okay so Stans idea. His character. But really it is both their character cause they were partners... Right?...
No, Jack Kirby's idea for the Silverspider/Spiderman which Stan took to Steve Ditko who developed him.
You are totally WRONG!
The idea came from Jack Kirby.
He pitched the idea to Stan Lee.
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 no it didn’t Stan came up with The idea behind Spiderman and Steve Ditko helped him bring him to the comics
@@thegoddamnedbatman2138 You are WRONG !
Jack Kirby and Joe Simon created the character "The Fly" for Archie Comics 3 years before the creation of Spider-Man.
"The Fly" is the story of an orphan teenager who lives with his uncles and with a magic ring he transforms into an adult super hero with the ability to walk up walls.
Wait a minute, Stan Lee always said that he came with the idea of Spider-Man when he saw a fly on the wall of his office.
Very weird isn't?
Maybe he meant he saw "The Fly" in his office when Jack Kirby told him about the character that he created with Joe Simon 3 years before for Archie Comics.
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 that’s two totally different characters moron
Stan loves to say that without bringing up in some cases he didn't even have the idea for the story.
The artists had to create plots and he would revise/ add the suggested dialogues later. Wally Wood quit from Daredevil after he saw he had done the whole story, Stan Lee came after the fact, changed two words and for credits as writer.
And that was not a single example.
There are several well known stories where Stan's involvement is minimal and on an editorial level not as a creative contributor.
Famously Stan merely throw to Jack Kirby "make the Fantastic Four fight god". Kirby then created the whole story, the Watcher showing up, the first appearance of the Silver Surfer, the Galactus, everything, delivered the pages and Stan was "who is the surfer guy?" Kirby had to explain the whole story for him because he didn't have a clue what he was looking at.
Stan could be a great editor, a great eye to what made stories work and sell, a great proselytizer of the medium and really pushed the stories to be adapted to other mediums. We wouldn't have the MCU today without him but he used to do this of getting credits he didn't deserve.
Stan Lee is not allowed to have his own opinion on his own character. Even when he gave Steve Ditko as much credit as he could in creating the look of Spiderman, it wasn't enough for Ditko or Stan Lee's critics. They wanted Stan Lee to Believe that Ditko had "cocreated the character along with him", and that just wasn't the case. Lee was not allowed to have his own memory and opinion of his own creation. Even Alan Moore fell into that camp; which is unfair.
Stan claimed others work often. Kirby and many others had similar issues with the thief
If it weren't for Stan as a frontman no one would want Marvel.
In a visual medium, the look of a character is as important as the idea. Dikto is without a doubt the co-creator of Spider-Man.
An idea is very important. Stan Lee is right. The other guy was the co-creator.
I don't think it's entirely fair to judge Stan Lee with a 21st century understanding of who gets credit when society has changed so much since the 1960s. And Stan Lee was one of the people who advanced the idea that artist deserved more credit.
In literature, editors do a hell of a lot to form stories and contribute ideas but are not given writing credit or copyright credit. Songwriters get credit, not instrumentalists, for music. These are the legal backgrounds that existed for the comics industry from the 1920s to 1960s. In this context, the writer and person who has the idea gets all the credit.
The fact that the comics industry now recognizes artists the way it does is huge progress, but it isn't grounds to demonize the early days.
Except that's all bullshit. Superman was the very first Superhero ever created, in 1938. It has always been credited as a co-creation between the writer and the artist, right from Action Comics #1 and on. So, the concept co-creation in the comic book medium did not _just_ come about in the 21st century.
@@AgentMorgan2010 Uhh… you do realize that Superman was not the first superhero in history right?
@@dandelion40k87 Uhh... you do realize you're just a pedantic little touch hole, right? But you are correct, of course. The Greek God Zeus was _actually_ the first superhero ever created! You're right about that, and I was technically wrong about Superman. And yet, nothing has changed.
Because you do realize that whether or not you consider the pulp heroes that predate Superman -- such as The Phantom or The Shadow -- to be the very first superheroes ever created, it has nothing to do with the actual point I was making here at all anyway, right?
Right.
Superman _is_ the seminal character that kicked off the Golden Age of comics and the American superhero genre, and is the prototypical archetype that all the other subsequent superhero characters followed.
Point is Superman predates Spider-Man, and his creation has always been acknowledged and credited as a co-creation. So, the concept of co-creation isn't something we _just_ came up with in the 21st century.
@@AgentMorgan2010 whatever mommy.
Only two people know who "created" Spider Man.
Both of them are dead, so we'll probably never know.
The question nowadays is, who is Spider-Man? I dig Miles Morales and a few of the other incarnations but, being on the south side of 40 years old, Peter Parker bit by a radioactive spider will always be Spider-Man to me. I understand Marvel is a business, owned by another business, owned by another business and profit is the order of the day but, let's take it easy on the overexposure of the "Spider-verse" pleeeease!!
@@jeff0247598 I agree
Steve Ditko will always be the real Creator of Spider-Man!!
Well, to be fair, Stan Lee started the creation even before Steve Dikto was involved, so Spider Man would exist even without Steve, however, Steve did help with the creation, so in a way, they are both right
So you're saying Stan started the creation, and then Ditko finished the creation. So they both created it. So Stan isn't right.
@@TIMMUT17 yes, that's right.
I'm just saying I understand what Stan Lee ment when he sometimes he said the person that has the idea is the real creator.
Without steve no one would give a fuck about spiderman, all of the other designs by other artists looked like shit
@@SuperSonicSquad you don't know that. Maybe it would, and even if it wasn't a success, does not change the fact that Stan Lee created it the character.
@@Luizanimado Yes, we do know that, because none of Stan Lee's other character came even close to Spider-Man's success.
"I have always considered...", said Stan Lee in the letter. I mean no disrespect, but that seemed like a personal opinion, not a fact. It sould have been "Steve Ditko IS Spider- Man's co-creator". Of course, that's just semantics. But then again, language is responsible of how we perceive an idea... and the people who are behind it.
Without the costume it wouldn’t have worked
The fact that Stan can talk about it and acknowledge those points is what makes/made him a swell guy.
Watching this video, I can't help but wonder if Stan just told Ditko "make a comic about a Spider-Man", and if Ditko did all the hard work in Amazing Fantasy #15.
Stan is the creator
The idea is the most important thing . Literly anything even scientific facts and knowlegde are based on ideas
I am not insulting dirko but
If you have the idea you can get the artist from everywhere
This situation and comic book creation is a bit more complex. Just Like in movies there are more than 1 people involved in the creation of something, more than 1 chef in the kitchen if you will! Also Ditko was the one who actually made the stories inside spiderman, where as stan lee only filled in the dialogue bubbles after ditko had already drawn the visual story. Ditko is officially and rightfully the co creator.
on stan's basis of creation, bill finger was not a co-creator of batman
Originally, Jack Kirby claimed that he came up with the name Spider-man, while he was at MLJ Comics, while creating a new Superhero with Joe Simon. The Superhero name was later changed to The Fly, and later in 1960's, The Flyman!
Damn both Js claiming the work of Ditko. I thought Kirby was one of the good ones too.
Notice how Kirby isn’t in this position cause lee specifically wanted ditko. His input deserves co created title
At least Stan Lee owned up to his mistakes and was willing to be receptive of Steve Ditko's criticism. Unlike that dick Bob Kane who refused to acknowledge Bill Finger's contribution to Batman even after his death.
R.I.P Stan Lee.
Jack kirby and Steve dikto too R.I.P.
@@russellmachan3861 Yeah rip them all
RIP a nasty fart on Stan Lee's grave
I'm on Stan's side. He could have gone to anybody to draw it.
Not to anyone because it is only in the way Ditko drew it that it was successful.
I think it would have been much more honorable for Ditko to be credited as the one who realized the idea.
The public knows that in a creative process a superficial idea is just an input.🙂
@@Picuasco We absolutely cannot know if Ditko's art was the only factor in Spiderman's success. It is impossible to tell.
But what we do know is the story of Spidey has stuck around much longer than the art, which most would consider outdated.
Steve lived in poverty. Who cares when stan lee give him credit, he needs money
*Both* Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created Spider-Man. However, Stan Lee's role in the creation of the character is inarguably the most important, because without his role there wouldn't be a Spider-Man.
Without Steve Ditko there wouldn't be a Spider-Man either.
@@sniperwolve False. There'd still be _a_ Spider-Man without Steve Ditko; he'd simply look different.
@SaintFort False. How much do you know about Steve Ditko? How much do you know about Spider-Man? Ditko wasn't just an artist, he was a writer too. He plotted the Spider-Man title by himself, with no input from Stan Lee, for almost the last half of their run, partly because Stan stopped talking to him when Ditko demanded writing credit. Up until that point they'd have story conferences where they'd flesh out the plot TOGETHER! He didn't just draw Spider-Man, nah, he was also deeply involved in building his mythology.
Spider-Man wasn't created solely by Stan Lee, Steve Ditko or anyone else. Joe Simon originally conceptualized the idea for a character who would later become Spider-Man. Jack Kirby was involved in that process as well. Spider-Man wasn't created by any one person and came about through a collaborative effort that reshaped old ideas (Joe Simon's, Stan Lee's,) into entirely new ones (Steve Ditko). None of these characters would be who they are, who we know them to be, without the contributions of people like Steve Dikto, Joe Simon, Jack Kirby and others. Marvel wouldn't be the brand that it is without all of the stones that its legacy is built on. Stan Lee couldn't have accomplished it on his own. What good is an idea if you lack the imagination and creativity to bring it to fruition?! Lee needed the Marvel Method. To discount the importance of the role of Dikto, Kirby, etc in the creative process of these characters is criminal.
The idea for Spiderman was Jack Kirby's, the only aspect that was allegedly invented by Stan was the sticking to walls thing, the web shooting and the spider theme was Jack Kirby
@@SaintFort False. To say there would be a Spider-Man looking different makes it clear he wouldn't be Spider-Man anymore, because what he looks like defines, among other stuff, what he is. And the same can be said for all of those iconic characters. You CAN'T separate one from the other.
I don't think Ditko realizes he's the CO-creator. Co is the prefix for together. Meaning he's the second creator. It's not like Stan Lee's above him. Stan Lee looked at them as both creators. They both made the idea, both worked their "Merry Marvel Magic" and created the most famous character in the world.
Ditko/ kirby deserves more credit than Mr.Lee
R.I.P Stan Lee
Call me crazy but I think in order for this problem to be solved this situation that arises in the creative industry like comics a comic book should be done by one person. One person dreams up a character draws the character and does the lettering thus gets credit for every aspect of their creation. Does all the work that is needed in creating a comic book. Simple as that perhaps comic giants such as Marvel or DC should change their business tactics and everyone who is hired is a soul creator of their individual characters from illustrations to writing. In a sense McFarlane did this and he is a success story to this day all because he had a character named Spawn. The Marvel and DC executives don't do anything in terms of creative content. They handle the business selling the Marvel brand selling the DC brand. And the creators get all credit for their content under the umbrella of Marvel or DC. Their problem solved there won't be anymore feuds. Just my opinion.
Lee and Ditko are Both The Creators of Spider-Man. Ditko DEFINITELY Deserves More Credit, though. Both are Vital yet One was clearly Neglected in Credit and That’s not Okay.
So Stan Lee created it then, lol. its common sense, whoever comes up with the idea is the creator. Stan told Ditko and He drew up something and Stan was like yeah thats it or no, thats not quite it. its the same thing a producer does or a writer. Its George Lucas and Spielberg. It was an idea someone was going to have to draw anyway because Stan was lead editor, so someone was going to have to draw it , Kirby or Ditko or whomever and it showed up to Stan's satisfaction then u have a winner.
Nice so he said that after the real creator was dead and poor?
No this was filmed while ditko was still alive
Stan Lee died an unrepentant credit thief
all he did was spit out vague concepts while his artists did the rest of the work.
the man believed he did enough work, just to spit out small concepts while everyone wrote and drew everything.
I will respect Stan Lee as a marketer and a businessman. BUT NEVER AS A CREATOR
Stab Lee on giving credit for work: no, I'm a "genius".
Stan lets the mask slip a bit.
Stan Lee pretending to give credit to Steve Drink for this interview.Shocking.
He seems genuine to me in thinking that the basic concept from himself was most important and yet also willing to see something in the other side, to think co-creator term is also fair.
Sorry Steve but this is what happens when you become publicity shy, don't give interviews or put yourself or word out there, nobody is going to know of your existence and thus your credit or contribution will go unoticed. Love to see how he would've faired nowadays in getting his work known.
steve ditco created Dr strange and iconic final chapter of spider man.
i just saw the documentary and its brilliant
The only reason the discussion is still going is because Spider-Man was successful. Stan said it best, he dreamed Spider-Man up and handed it off to be drawn, could have by anyone but it happened to be Steve and it happened to be successful. If it hadn't been successful, then he would have been the creator of something unsuccessful and the artist would never have been mentioned. Fair is fair, but times were different back then and Stan could have been an ass and said go suck on it but he didn't.
I can kind of understand Stan’s point of view to a degree even if I dont agree with him. If someone wrote a book and then someone drew one of the characters in the book based on how he had described them they wouldn’t then be considered the cocreator of that character. But I get it. Comics are different.
Ditko did waaay more than just draw Spidey. He plotted the stories, too!!! Visual storytelling is a far greater skill and contribution to the comic book genre, than merely scripting dialogue on a typewriter after seeing the whole story drawn out on paper...
Bro they both did only due to the thoughts process so like say Stan Lee was mediating and thought about hero's and lee and Steve actually were picking up on stuff that already exists so everything you ever thought had already exists either in mind and memories so like Spiderman and other hero's actually are a reality for some that travel and research our history even pass the bible you'll find the bible was made up from old text that originally came from a different star system, since our milkyway ain't even ours😂 it's eating another smaller one, anyway so even tho Stan Lee is a legend and even gave credit but due to today we only have videos of Stan that lift us up and have an impact even to this day, though his been gone for a while now his work lives on in others and now we can talk about multiverse stuff 😅
Also, Lee once stated in a interview on the Syfy Channel that he saw a fly crawling up a window, and that's where he got the idea for Spider-man. He later said he didn't remember saying this! ALSO, he claimed to have based Spider-man on a old pulp Superhero called The Spider: Master of Men. He wrote this In his book Origins of Marvel Comics. Go figure?!😂😄
1. He May forgot about it, i mean he was an old guy...
2. He May based him on the character not get the idea itself, for example if i had an idea to make a super hero that can fly and then inspire my own character from him
He was old. Almost 100 of course he would forget some details.
His mediocracy is showing all over the place no matter how much his hubris ego tries to hide.
Shame on all his devils advocates.Thats why theyre called freaky geeks and fanboys.
Stan lee isnt describing it as it is, Ditko did not just draw it, he bassicaly came up with the entire concept
Stan lee just came up with the name, lee also wrote spiderman stories which is important but he still steals credit a lot
Ditko outright said he doesn’t believe in flawed heroes. Does Ditko know the entire reason Spider-Man is loved is because he is a flawed hero? Stan Lee is the reason Spider-Man was a flawed person with a flawed life.
Ditko hates grey characters yet ironically writes Mr A who is essentially an anti hero. Ditko was tone deaf on writing.
@@petermj1098 How is Mr. A an Anti-Hero? I'm reading it and never he comes across as Anti-Hero, unless you feel yourself uncomfortable with the idea that you might be one of the "grey area" ones. Spider-Man's sucess wasn't his flaw, it was the idea that out of the common he became exceptionnal and grew as a person from a boy to a man, Lee wanted Spidey to keep being a "kid" (leading to all those status quo BS we got for decades afterward and the "clownification" of the character alltogether) while Ditko understood that shall you become a man, you cannot go back to a boy and call it an evolution, a choice must be made consciously.
See, Stan Lee was and is a GLORY HOG! STEVE DITKO WAS AND IS STILL THE CREATOR OF SPIDER-MAN!
You realize that it was a combined effort from the two and secondly don't slander a dead man's name
@@henryemily375 Yes, I see. My bad. Stan’s part was his idea and suggestions. Thanks.
@@henryemily375 Postscript: IMHO, Steve Ditko’s true contribution was actually designing and drawing Spider-Man. See? So, please don’t get pushy.
@@paul329869 you realize that people had to discuss and agree on what Peter Parker would look like
agree to disagree
What's this documentary called?
Stan Lee: Liar and traitor.
😂
In search of steve Ditko. Its excellent and here on you tube
stan what a cad.