I am sensing a theme with a lot of recent shoes. They are better for bigger runners. I was suggested the Kinvara Pro as a semi stability race day shoe. I love them for that. I am a bigger runner getting in shape and find that the firmer foams that lots of reviewers who are smaller don’t like are the ones that work for me. Great review as always!
I really like the Kinvara Pro, especially for long runs. It's got the Powerun PB on the top layer of the midsole, with a nice Powerun+ insole. It took awhile for the chunk of plain Powerun on the bottom layer to soften up and feel less clunky. If Saucony asked me, I'd make the following suggestions to make the shoe better: first, replace the bottom Powerun layer with Powerun+, same as the insole, and you'll get more bounce. Second, reduce the overall stack height by just 2 mm, and put a thin layer of rubber in high-wear areas only. Third, replace the carbon fiber plate with a carbon-infused nylon plate to make the shoe a bit less stiff. Fourth, just a little less padding in the tongue and heel counter would reduce the weight a bit. Perfect shoe with the bounce of the Powerun PB, but still no "bottoming out" like the Endorphin Speed series on long runs. For reference, I'm 5'10",150 pounds, at 62 years old, a runner since I was 16, and earned a D1 track and cross country scholarship as a young man.
I am a 210 lbs 6’ 1” runner, got the speed 4s at launch. I was dealing with nagging shin splints before , and they were one of the few shoes that did not aggravate my shins . They did very well for slow running , but also when I did my 200 yards intervals at mid to low 6 minute pace , they still felt very good , in fact I use them over my old speed shoe for speed days ( takumi sen 9 ) due to the wider more stable base . Btw , if you like the stability of the kinvara pro, give the tempus a shot , it’s even more stable without being too intrusive , still got a bunch of powerun pb foam, and it’s at 10.1 oz in a mens us 11.
The geometry of the shoe is interesting. The way we perceive the rocker is a function of the geometry of the rocker but also how the foam compresses under our foot strike and whether and what type of plate/rods are there. For a heel striker, you may also experience it differently depending on the total heel to toe geometry of the shoe. A lot of people really liked the Speed 4 but, apparently, it's just not a good fit for your mechanics.
Thank you for the mention! Now this might sound weird to some, but for my Kinvara pros ive taken out the powerun plus insole and replaced it with the insole from an old pair of speed 3s. I didnt really appreciate the kinvsro pro becoming softer. For me, removing the powerun insole reduced softness but also cuts weight and makes the shoe feel a little snappier. Worth a try if anyone is struggling with it.
Saucony Endorphin Speed 3 is a pretty good shoe.Why would they mess up a successful model?They had to just add a more gripping outsole for wet surface and keep everything else the same.
Ran in a pair of endorphin speed 4 for 2 miles at a saucony trial event. 7:10 pace, 6' 2" 165-170 lbs. First time ever running in any of the speed series. Only other Saucony shoe ive tried is the tempus. Maybe it was because i did 7.5 miles the day before in the Ghost Max, but the speed 4 felt like a lot more than 8mm drop. Also felt a bit flat. Less pop that even the Tempus. I run a lot around the 8:30-9min pace in the Glycerin 21 and the speed 4 felt more akin to that drop than the tepus. RunRepeat has a fantastic resource where they cut the shoes in half and measure stacks/drop acording to world athletic guidelines and they have the Ghost max at 9.5mm drop (Manufacturer spec 6mm), the speed 4 at 8.7 (8.0), glycerin 21 at 10.7 (10.0), and tempus at 8.5 (8.0). Really interesting how much factory listed spec differs from measurements at World Athletic guidelines
never thought i'd try the kinvara pro, but this makes me want to. I have endorphin speed 3s and like them a lot. I'm also 6'2 and about 200lbs so maybe the kinvara pro's stability would be helpful for me
I found the speed4 to have a very comfortable upper. At 60kg you don't need to be heavy to flatten out that squishy foam, all you need is some hilly terrain and you'll smash up your heels in no time at all, it needs a different foam like Lightstrike pro so when it bottoms out it's still squishy.
I tried out the Kinvara Pro a few months ago, but as a lighter runner, they felt like I was running on bricks - or tanks! They felt really big and clunky in a way that didn't allow me to pick up the pace like the ASICS Superblast does even though that's also a bigger shoe, albeit lighter than the Kinvara Pro.
The Speed 4 is made for forefoot striking. I’m 6’, 150 lbs and this shoe performs well at MP or better. I use it for 20 mile long runs no problem. I believe the engineers are focused on proper form. It did take at least 100 miles to get worked in though. Heel clunking is not allowed 😂😂😂 Just kidding…kind of 😂
Did you know plenty of elites land rearfoot? (Check out Seth James senior Boston marathon form breakdown from a few years back) It's a myth that forefoot striking is the proper way to run
@@supwell I didn’t say proper way and I certainly respect all forms of running but I think shoes are designed from the metatarsal backwards. At least that kind of makes sense from a design perspective. All I said is that you hate it but I am setting PBs in it. Supwell certified is penalizing a shoe millions of people love and use daily because it definitely is not a slow pace or heel strike shoe. I offered a different perspective and get a lecture? While you are correct vis a vis the statistics, overall heel striking significantly adds to breaking forces on every step. You are young and can handle it. I used to heel strike and picked up injuries. Just a different older hobby jogger perspective that’s all. Peace ✌️
@@supwell …and I your unique perspective among the TH-cam entertainment community. Hobby Jogging…with a purpose is my motto! 100 Kms trail race tomorrow here in 🇨🇦💪 The 1080s saved my legs and got me here feeling fresh and strong. My shoe of the year so far. Hoping the Cielo X1 tops it 🤞
I have the Endorphin Speed 3 and for the life of me can’t figure out what all the hype is about? It’s a fine shoe but nothing special. The Pro 3 does what the Speed 3 should do. Just picked them up at a discount.
Just got the Pro 4 to run my first fully trained marathon in September, usually I run my half marathons (4 now) in the vaporfly 2. Is there a reason to get the speed 4 to pair with the pro 4? Or can I get speed work done in the triumph 20/vomero 17? Thanks for all the great videos and advice!
Thanks man! And I wouldn't get the speed 4 if you already have the pro 4 - you can do any speed work in the pro and it's fairly durable so will hold up well for training use before the race. And Vomero/triumph are great for daily and can also be used for workouts depending on your paces/preferences. But that's a great rotation! You're covered for sure
I would love to know how the Kinvara Pro feels and performs on dirt. Flat dirt, of course, but dirt/crushed stone/gravel. My hunch is they could be wonderful for a dirt road/path ultra. My Kinvara 14s are amazing on flat crushed stone/dirt, absolutely perfect foam for that surface. Thinking ahead to next year when I repeat a flat dirt backyard ultra looking for some redemption (GI stuff knocked me out this year) and once again logic is bringing me back to the Pro... hmm. Hopefully they plummet in price in the not-so-distant future.
interesting I got the Kinvara pro and indeed they are weird hehehe, and I got the Pro 4 and I love them, got the speed 3 instead of the 4s due to the same comments I can see here: everywhere I saw: they improved the pros from 3 to 4, but they screwed things up with the speed from 3 to 4. :-S
I am sensing a theme with a lot of recent shoes. They are better for bigger runners. I was suggested the Kinvara Pro as a semi stability race day shoe. I love them for that. I am a bigger runner getting in shape and find that the firmer foams that lots of reviewers who are smaller don’t like are the ones that work for me. Great review as always!
I really like the Kinvara Pro, especially for long runs. It's got the Powerun PB on the top layer of the midsole, with a nice Powerun+ insole. It took awhile for the chunk of plain Powerun on the bottom layer to soften up and feel less clunky. If Saucony asked me, I'd make the following suggestions to make the shoe better: first, replace the bottom Powerun layer with Powerun+, same as the insole, and you'll get more bounce. Second, reduce the overall stack height by just 2 mm, and put a thin layer of rubber in high-wear areas only. Third, replace the carbon fiber plate with a carbon-infused nylon plate to make the shoe a bit less stiff. Fourth, just a little less padding in the tongue and heel counter would reduce the weight a bit. Perfect shoe with the bounce of the Powerun PB, but still no "bottoming out" like the Endorphin Speed series on long runs. For reference, I'm 5'10",150 pounds, at 62 years old, a runner since I was 16, and earned a D1 track and cross country scholarship as a young man.
I am a 210 lbs 6’ 1” runner, got the speed 4s at launch. I was dealing with nagging shin splints before , and they were one of the few shoes that did not aggravate my shins . They did very well for slow running , but also when I did my 200 yards intervals at mid to low 6 minute pace , they still felt very good , in fact I use them over my old speed shoe for speed days ( takumi sen 9 ) due to the wider more stable base . Btw , if you like the stability of the kinvara pro, give the tempus a shot , it’s even more stable without being too intrusive , still got a bunch of powerun pb foam, and it’s at 10.1 oz in a mens us 11.
I absolutely love my Kinvara pros. 6’, 195lb and these feel great underfoot. Feels like I can really move in them too.
The geometry of the shoe is interesting. The way we perceive the rocker is a function of the geometry of the rocker but also how the foam compresses under our foot strike and whether and what type of plate/rods are there. For a heel striker, you may also experience it differently depending on the total heel to toe geometry of the shoe. A lot of people really liked the Speed 4 but, apparently, it's just not a good fit for your mechanics.
Thank you for the mention! Now this might sound weird to some, but for my Kinvara pros ive taken out the powerun plus insole and replaced it with the insole from an old pair of speed 3s. I didnt really appreciate the kinvsro pro becoming softer. For me, removing the powerun insole reduced softness but also cuts weight and makes the shoe feel a little snappier. Worth a try if anyone is struggling with it.
Saucony Endorphin Speed 3 is a pretty good shoe.Why would they mess up a successful model?They had to just add a more gripping outsole for wet surface and keep everything else the same.
Not everyone enjoyed the Speed 3.
Ran in a pair of endorphin speed 4 for 2 miles at a saucony trial event. 7:10 pace, 6' 2" 165-170 lbs. First time ever running in any of the speed series. Only other Saucony shoe ive tried is the tempus. Maybe it was because i did 7.5 miles the day before in the Ghost Max, but the speed 4 felt like a lot more than 8mm drop. Also felt a bit flat. Less pop that even the Tempus. I run a lot around the 8:30-9min pace in the Glycerin 21 and the speed 4 felt more akin to that drop than the tepus.
RunRepeat has a fantastic resource where they cut the shoes in half and measure stacks/drop acording to world athletic guidelines and they have the Ghost max at 9.5mm drop (Manufacturer spec 6mm), the speed 4 at 8.7 (8.0), glycerin 21 at 10.7 (10.0), and tempus at 8.5 (8.0). Really interesting how much factory listed spec differs from measurements at World Athletic guidelines
never thought i'd try the kinvara pro, but this makes me want to. I have endorphin speed 3s and like them a lot. I'm also 6'2 and about 200lbs so maybe the kinvara pro's stability would be helpful for me
I found the speed4 to have a very comfortable upper.
At 60kg you don't need to be heavy to flatten out that squishy foam, all you need is some hilly terrain and you'll smash up your heels in no time at all, it needs a different foam like Lightstrike pro so when it bottoms out it's still squishy.
thx for mentioning Boston 12. yeah I like Boston 12 more than most Saucony
Man, making me regret picking the speeds over the Kinvara pros. Great beverage choice 👍
I tried out the Kinvara Pro a few months ago, but as a lighter runner, they felt like I was running on bricks - or tanks! They felt really big and clunky in a way that didn't allow me to pick up the pace like the ASICS Superblast does even though that's also a bigger shoe, albeit lighter than the Kinvara Pro.
The Speed 4 is made for forefoot striking. I’m 6’, 150 lbs and this shoe performs well at MP or better. I use it for 20 mile long runs no problem. I believe the engineers are focused on proper form. It did take at least 100 miles to get worked in though.
Heel clunking is not allowed 😂😂😂 Just kidding…kind of 😂
Did you know plenty of elites land rearfoot? (Check out Seth James senior Boston marathon form breakdown from a few years back) It's a myth that forefoot striking is the proper way to run
@@supwell I didn’t say proper way and I certainly respect all forms of running but I think shoes are designed from the metatarsal backwards. At least that kind of makes sense from a design perspective. All I said is that you hate it but I am setting PBs in it. Supwell certified is penalizing a shoe millions of people love and use daily because it definitely is not a slow pace or heel strike shoe. I offered a different perspective and get a lecture? While you are correct vis a vis the statistics, overall heel striking significantly adds to breaking forces on every step. You are young and can handle it. I used to heel strike and picked up injuries. Just a different older hobby jogger perspective that’s all. Peace ✌️
@@ianwarner1429sorry man I didn't mean to offend. I appreciate the alternate perspective
@@supwell …and I your unique perspective among the TH-cam entertainment community. Hobby Jogging…with a purpose is my motto! 100 Kms trail race tomorrow here in 🇨🇦💪 The 1080s saved my legs and got me here feeling fresh and strong. My shoe of the year so far. Hoping the Cielo X1 tops it 🤞
Does the kinvara pro outsole even last? Makes me think of early Hokas that are toast after 150-200 miles
Speed 4 is still a very good shoe
I have the Endorphin Speed 3 and for the life of me can’t figure out what all the hype is about? It’s a fine shoe but nothing special. The Pro 3 does what the Speed 3 should do. Just picked them up at a discount.
Hoping you get the mizuno neo vistas. I’m probably going to get either that or the Skyward X next.
Yes will be getting that as soon as it's available!
Just got the Pro 4 to run my first fully trained marathon in September, usually I run my half marathons (4 now) in the vaporfly 2. Is there a reason to get the speed 4 to pair with the pro 4? Or can I get speed work done in the triumph 20/vomero 17? Thanks for all the great videos and advice!
Thanks man! And I wouldn't get the speed 4 if you already have the pro 4 - you can do any speed work in the pro and it's fairly durable so will hold up well for training use before the race. And Vomero/triumph are great for daily and can also be used for workouts depending on your paces/preferences. But that's a great rotation! You're covered for sure
please Hyperion Max vs Superblast !
Where on Earth did you get that Speed 4 colorway? It's beautiful and I need it immediately lol.
REI Co-op collab!
I would love to know how the Kinvara Pro feels and performs on dirt. Flat dirt, of course, but dirt/crushed stone/gravel. My hunch is they could be wonderful for a dirt road/path ultra. My Kinvara 14s are amazing on flat crushed stone/dirt, absolutely perfect foam for that surface. Thinking ahead to next year when I repeat a flat dirt backyard ultra looking for some redemption (GI stuff knocked me out this year) and once again logic is bringing me back to the Pro... hmm. Hopefully they plummet in price in the not-so-distant future.
They are good on dirt/gravel and decent in the wet. In gravel the tread can pick up the odd stone but I’ve only noticed at the end of my run
Could you do a comparison between the kinvara pro vs s/lab spectur vs sc trainer v2
hell yeah lucki is fire
When are you going to make more Hobby Jogger hats?
they will be landing this summer! stay tuned
interesting I got the Kinvara pro and indeed they are weird hehehe, and I got the Pro 4 and I love them, got the speed 3 instead of the 4s due to the same comments I can see here: everywhere I saw: they improved the pros from 3 to 4, but they screwed things up with the speed from 3 to 4. :-S
Speed 4 shoe of the year for me. I dont understand the criticism at all.
👍
What no “One more thing”😡😂😂😂😂
Hahaha that's beauty of one more thing - sometimes I don't have one more thing to say 😂