As a musician and audio producer.... The beat starts on 1 on the play... No pickup note. 65bpm 'half time'.... Taking Tim's history into account his music usually makes your head bob the time signature... Good example. Jay Z's Dirt off ya shoulder
@@StudioSensei the down beat anyone who thinks different is mad 😭 and its 131 bpm then go listen to one in a million thats in the 60s. But same tempo its how u bounce to it.
I've been thinking about this for days and it's been driving me crazy!! The original Afro-Cuban sample, it clearly starts on beat 1 - no argument there. But, in the Timbaland/Ludacris version, despite my best efforts, I definitely hear it starting on a pickup because: - V-I motion in the melodic line, as you mentioned - When counted at 131 bpm starting on beat 1, bars 2 and 4 have no bass drum on the downbeat. However, when the first note is counted as a pickup, bars 2 and 4 DO get bass drum on the downbeats so it feels more secure. Lots of people have mentioned the snare placement on beat 2 vs. 3 but to me, the (lack of) bass drum on an expected beat is more key to me feeling this track one way vs. the other. This isn't to say every bar needs a bass drum downbeat, just that the absence of it makes things tricky in this case because beat 1 doesn't have the same stability as normally expected. - Ludacris's vocal delivery lands so strongly on the second syllable that it bends my ear into hearing pickup-downbeat (4-1), instead of 1-2. I hear it more as twin-GLOCK vs. TWIN-glock, etc., where I only hear the emphasis on the first note/syllable in the original sample. - I had hoped that at 65.5 bpm, I'd hear the Ludacris version like the original sample, but the aforementioned elements just make this into a trick mirror for my brain and I can't help it! I'll take my psychopath diagnosis and show myself out :)
🤣, to be fair I’m not officially a doctor, so my diagnosis may not hold up.. But thanks for weighing in.. I appreciate the breakdown... Though I will say that there are many more instances of the snare hitting on the 3 of music like this (bounce counted in double time) than a kick on the 2 and 4.. So I think the actual 1 and the 3 are more reliable indicators than the more rare 2 and 4 down beats. But yeah the V-I motion def makes sense if that’s how you’re listening to it.. I just think considering the genre there’s more precedence to consider the song start and drums in priority.
Bass drums almost never hit on 2 and 4 in pop/hip hop music. Listening only to the bass drum strongly implies studio sensei’s interpretation because it hits on 1 and 3 of the half time feel
@@MarcillaSmith Again, this is correct with in it's own context.. But the context here is not a composer sitting down in front of a piano or a drum kit but a hip hop producer sitting in front of a sampler.
I came across this and I’m at the end of my ear training/sight reading course. I take dictation exams with pick ups allllll the time and that’s how I interpreted it. The psychopath way lol ok my guy
The only way ear training would be important to this is so that you hear the 5 -> 1 happening on 4 -> 1 as a resolution, which I don't think was the point you wanted to make
The way you describe it with the drums vs. the sample is exactly what I was thinking the moment I heard about this debate. I believe the drum beat inherently (especially in hiphop) carries the beat of the phrase. So the 1 would be the start of the song with the initial kick. Snares on 3 (or 2 & 4 depending how you count it) are standard in hiphop.
I thought it was Tiger and Crane Fist. Which I only know exists because of Kung Pow: Enter the Fist. I kept waiting for Evil Betty with his iron claws. (They hurt like crap man)
I hear it the "psychopath" way, likely due to the horns/vocals. When you play the drum beat alone, I hear it "your" way (though I'm curious how it would sound if you put the crashes on your '2'), but as soon as the horns come in, I can't hear it that way. I can count 1-2-3-4, but I have to consciously force myself not to put the emphasis on the 2 and treat the 1 like a pickup note. Also, the high hat 16th's (or 32nd's depending on tempo) that happen every 4 or 8 bars feel like a fill that leads into beat 1, not a thing on beat 1, but that's probably influenced by how it feels to me. Would be interesting to hear just the drum beat. And I played it for my wife, who has no musical training whatsoever and sometimes can't even recognize a bass part in a three piece band, and asked her to count 1-2-3-4, and she also picked the "wrong" way and found it weird that anyone could hear it your way. So whatever the reasons, they're based solely on feel (probably from what styles of music you listened to growing up) and likely have very little to do with music knowledge. My guess is that Timbaland made a sweet 65bpm beat, hit the horn sample on beat 1, and after that it felt like the 1 was in a different place, so they went with that.
I think am indicator being overlooked here is the fact that all the loops start on that 1.. the chorus parts like the arpeggiator start on the 1 and end accordingly before the verse section starts again.. In loop based music like this that’s highly indicative of the intended one (or at least where the 1 is on timbalands gear) being where I said. Yes, musically it could be interpreted differently but if we are just talking about how Timbaland likely created and intended the 1 of the beat, that factor would commonly point to the 1 being as described.
@@StudioSensei When working on loop based music with a pickup you have to work around that so I don't think thats really an argument for your interpretation at all, because if he intended it to be a pickup beat you'd end up with exactly the same situation, as he'd be basically forced to start each loop on the pickup
@@ClikcerProductions Regarding Timbaland’s intentions, I can’t say with 100% certainty either side, but FWIW I’d bet money he didn’t know what a pick up note was when he made this track (I’d also bet he still doesn’t). And I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing either. I’m just mentioning it because for this genre of music the 1 of the loop often holds more precedent than any that factors influenced by traditional (18th century based) music theory. It’s certainly more informative to consider it that way if we are to learn from what Hip Hop has to teach, which I think is important. It’s highly likely that Timbaland’s start is the 1 of the loop.. again when you consider all other precedence from the genre. But all that aside, here’s some more evidence of the song start being the 1 of the song. • Here Luda performs with a band where they accentuate the downbeat 1. Notice how the drummer hits crashes on the first downbeat throughout the performance (much like the drums only example in my video (th-cam.com/video/weAmMgSD7ro/w-d-xo.html): Example 1: th-cam.com/video/FKGeB9FyrAY/w-d-xo.html | Example 2: th-cam.com/video/FLUyd0T94GE/w-d-xo.html (there's more of these out there too) • Here's an example where the DJ holds the 1 (a bit sloppily at first though it's clear the intention of where it's falling with the lyrics) as they drop out for an a cappella outdo of the "biznass" section: th-cam.com/video/SlkOHso87u8/w-d-xo.html • Here's a transition from "What's Your Fantasy" to "Roll Out" following the downbeat 1 th-cam.com/video/W8Pf9Ug0I-0/w-d-xo.html & th-cam.com/video/jSSUjAKlINM/w-d-xo.html • Additionally, there are a bunch of other examples with DJs where the fader work (cutting in and out) supports the downbeat one through out the song. here's the most blatant of those examples: th-cam.com/video/nJONlTt9ZXg/w-d-xo.html • Here's one of a few remixes that support the downbeat 1 (for you "alt oners" that are having a hard time hearing past the V-I resolve): th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html • And as a bonus here's Alcorn State Marching Band performing a version of this (notice the conductor count in the 1 on the downbeat): th-cam.com/video/OU5NG_-5kU0/w-d-xo.html
@@StudioSensei I doubt he knows the name pickup note but he definitely knows what one is and how it feels, I mean one of the most iconic hip hop tracks ever uses a pickup heavily (California Love). That being said I do think the most likely thing is that he started with a half time drum beat and added a sample he liked to it because doing the snare just on 2 is weird, I just don't think how it loops is a good argument for why he probably did that. I've actually seen a lot of that stuff before with the bands clearly feeling the first beat as 1 but there are also clips where Luda is dancing like he feels the second beat as one so really I think it just comes down to personal perception, do you give the snare precedence or the melody and kick in terms of feel, it's a really cool song
@@ClikcerProductions in this genre the back beat snare more often gives precedence.. I can’t think of an instance where it doesn’t. In most examples the snare is either on the 2 & 4 or on songs like this, the 3. I think it’s clear he started with the sample first btw, and built the drums around it.. to remake this beat the trigger of that salsa sample would also hit on the downbeat 1.. he more than likely did that first and then worked drums around it. Loops, particular what the drums are doing, in this genre are a great indicator of how many hip hop producers intend a 1.. Even California Love, yes pick up note, but the dominant 1 is still where that beat comes in.
I think I mostly described it in the video.. but tbh, if you just hear music playing, I say keep it that way.. This debate is of no real consequence to the enjoyment of music, focusing on it can take away from that. Either way, I'd be happy to further explain if you really want to get into it!
Same thing I was thinking I’m like it starts on the 1 and if you’re a music person it shouldn’t be an issue but I guess because I’ve been doing music for years and it’s just ingrained in me and those ppl need to just tap out lol
YEEEESSSS. came to comment the same thing. I've always wanted to be able to read music, keep (count, i guess) time / bpm, and find/match note... ...but as soon as i start really getting into, at some point, after finding 1&2&3&4& - then you overlay info on that --- i feel like i just start trailing off somewhere else - like a friggin zombie or something! idk, i consider myself intelligent, but music, in a technic sense, is muchore complex than my brain can comprehend! ***however, as far as this video's explanation, ive never heard an explanation that at least HAD MY FULL ATTENTION all the way to the end - until this one. So, just saying, Sensei, you're an excellent speaker on the topic, but comprehension is beyond me --- rn, anyway. its not impossible
Great video! I've been working on a thing about this as well, I'll be sure to shout you out. Personally, I hear the snare on 2, for sort of the reason you described but not quite: For me it comes down to vocal delivery. I can get myself to hear it on 3 when it's just the horns, but when he's actually _singing_ the line, the way he phrases it lands really hard on the root, which makes it hard to not hear that as the downbeat. So it's not directly the melody, it's the way Luda interprets that melody that makes that version feel more natural to me.
Awesome, look forward to hearing your take on it and seeing the video! I also feel like there lyrics enforce “my 1” but hey by now I’m already convinced on the polarizing effect of the track. 🙏🏽💜 thanks for the impending mention too! - DiViNCi of studiosensei.com
@@StudioSensei Right off the bat, I could tell you were going to go the percussion route - I am a percussionist, myself. However, I'm also a vocalist, and a horn-player. Perhaps most influential, I grew up on Mister Mixx. The thing is this: I feel where you and others are coming from with "the snare usually goes here... " etc. The operative here, I think, is _usually._ [EDIT: I went back and listened, and disregard what I say here about the snare] Dirty South rhythms and percussion has always been about experimenting [EDIT: _"has_ always, as in "from the beginning," as opposed to _"is" always," meaning "every time"]. At the end of the day, the core of any piece of music is the melody. In _Roll Out,_ the melody is not the vocals or the percussion, it's the horns. Therefore, the meter is based on the horns. [EDIT: the _melodic_ vocals match the horns. There is also the vocal _sample_ ("roll out!"), but this is a loop, not part of the vocal melodic line] Yes, I can make myself hear the downbeat on the first note, or on the first vocal, and if Timbaland wrote it out, maybe he would even put it there [EDIT: re-listening, I'd be surprised if he did]. None of that changes the fact that it would be - to put it one way - a non-standard way of notating the music. In the percussion only piece you made, yes, I hear the downbeat where you put it. Respectfully, that doesn't change what we're talking about with _Roll Out._ The first note is the pick up note (or anacrusis, if you want to get fancy). The second note - in any standard notation - would be the first note of the first full measure - the downbeat. You don't even have to get as technical as picking out the key or the tonic. Just listen to the way the horns - the melody - is being played. The first note drives to the second note, before notes three and four begin to diminish the energy, and then notes five and six act as a kind of echo in the second measure (I'm counting at 65 bpm [EDIT: I meant 131, sorry]) before beat four of the second measure acts as the pick up into the repeat. For the record, I make no claims of being a great musician. In this case, though, I feel highly confident in my reasoning
@@MarcillaSmith @@MarcillaSmith This is by far my favorite response from an "Alt oner" because you wholly and sensibly state the case and supporting elements. Here's where I agree: • From a melodic perspective alone you are absolutely right and your breakdown of the harmonic movement is mostly spot on. Though I may disagree with the choice to count at 65 bpm in context of the song, especially starting on the alt one.. because that makes the beat that much more unlikely. • You also make a strong case for how this would be traditionally notated and again, I don't disagree with that if we are to leave out the context of the song/genre. Here's where I think some other consideration is in order: • "Dirty South rhythms and percussion has always been about experimenting" This statement isn't specifically true, again mostly because of the inaccurate use of words like "always". Hip Hop music/rap in general is a very experimental genre by nature. Certainly in it's roots. It itself bucks the traditions of much of the music that came before, especially the classical forms. But dirty south rhythms aren't too far of a throw from the conventions that define the overall genre. If it has any defining characteristics, it would be its tempo and bounce. I in no way mean to downplay the experimental nature of the music that raised me or pigeon hole it or imply it's lack of sophistication in any way. In fact, I'm doing the opposite by respecting its common rules. And to count this song by anything other than its own rules, in it's context, is to among other things, miss an opportunity to understand it with any sense of depth. and that's why I wouldn't discount "usually" here.. it has significance. (read on below for some reason it was giving me problem posting all in one response)
@@MarcillaSmith (continued) • Furthermore, if you take this song elsewhere without maintaining it's core characteristics it will lose it's power.. For example, have a DJ try to blend this song into another using the alt one, it breaks apart. Try to do a remix, on the alt one and you misalign Luda's incredible phrasing (here's one of many examples of it being done correctly: th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html), try to play this from alt one and you simply run risk of missing the intended brilliance it has to teach (here's another example of proper interpretation th-cam.com/video/OU5NG_-5kU0/w-d-xo.html). After all, to use your point, what good is being "experimental" or successfully breaking conventions, if we don't treat it as such.. We are no longer in the classical era of music, but in a largely pop music (using this term very generally as defined as being "non-classical"). That is not to say that modern staff notation and its rules aren't useful to these forms of music but there have been other advancements since then that have changed and arguably elevated or created new rules. Definitely beneficial to consider. All in all, I love your considerate and careful response. Mostly because it's one of the first ones that doesn't trigger me to just list indicators of the likelihood of the downbeat 1 (which I've written ad nauseam here ha).. But what you are addressing here is really the core of the discrepancy in this debate. And I thank you for staying on the root of the topic.. To end.. I want to quote my very brilliant friend (who also happens to be one of the most musically intelligent people I know) on this subject after reading some of the comments. "These people don’t understand what beats are in US pop music-beats in a bar have roles/identities. 2&4 are the backbeats-where the snare goes in rap music. 1 is the downbeat, where you start counting-it’s the tonic of time if that metaphor makes sense. Based on everything we know about where snares/kicks/sections of songs “should” fall, it’s obvious where the one (the tonic) is here. Use the snare to find 2&4, which are pretty much in the same place in US pop songs and reverse engineer the one. There is only one option. We can listen to any song in C major and call it B Locrian and sure the notes match, but that’s not really what’s happening, and you won’t learn much about the song analyzing it that way. If you want to understand this song with any depth-how and why it works so well/what tradition it comes from and how that informs it-you have to accept that the song starts on the downbeat. The point of breaking this down should be to learn more about the it, which you’re not going to do counting from the "right" place. Basically-it’s rap music. Thinking the snare isn’t on two and four here is failing to understand the conventions of the genre."
@@StudioSensei After consideration of what you've written, I went back and actually listened to the song again, and re-reading what I wrote, I made some errors, which I went back and corrected. Having done so, we agree on the bpm and the melodic phrasing (at least on the horns - I'm unclear where you stand on the vocals). As far as I can tell, this leaves just the percussive phrasing, and whether percussive or melodic phrasing is primary in determining overall musical phrasing. I suppose we also disagree as to whether or not this has something to do with "classical" versus "pop," and how best to remix, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that so we can focus on the core question. Further, let me drop even the question of whether melody or percussion should determine meter. I think even just analyzing the percussion, we will see it agrees with the melody. Your quoted friend and I agree on the "2 and 4" matter. The roots of hip hop in R&B, Soul, Rock, Jazz, etc. tend to use a syncopated rhythm, punctuating the "off beat" (your friend calls this the "back beat"). Conversely, a march would punctuate the "on beats" (1 and 3). This gives a march its rigid, driving feel, as opposed to the looser, more laid back feel of hip hop (even at a "bouncy" 120+ bpm). I sort of think we all agree on this? The question remains for me, because counting it melodically (with the downbeat after a pick up), I hear snare on 2 (dropped on 4). Counting from the first beat, I hear snare on 3, which seems to be at odds with the rest of your argument? Perhaps I have misunderstood. Regardless, though, this is what I would propose in settling the percussive phrasing... I'm hearing 1, 2, 4, 8, and 16 measure phrasing. 1 measure capitulates with "(4) & | 1." 2 measures capitulate with "(3) & 4 | 1." 4 with "(3) and uh 4 | 1." 8 measure phrases end with a half measure capitulation which I'm not going to try to count out here. Then the 16 measure phrase ends with a capitulation that is at least a full measure. Sophisticated, indeed! As I see it, this phrasing only works if the first beat is a pick up. If the first beat is counted as the downbeat, all of this becomes overly complicated with capitulations running into the first beat of the next phrase, ending on 2. As we seem to agree on, there's always different ways of notating the same thing, but also simplifying to the extent possible is to be preferred. If there's a way to hear the phrasing that preserves the downbeat on the first beat, I'm all ears (pardon the pun), but I can't make it work in my head
I'm so glad i missed this whole debate 😆 but I gotta say, this is THE reason why, when you're watching a hip hop performance on TV, all the people in the audience clap at the wrong times. It's technically "on beat", but it's the completely wrong count for hip hop and it just sounds ridiculous
hahaha.. Though there's deeper more historic reasons why different cultures of people clap on the "wrong" ends of the beat, but yeah I wouldn't disagree that some of that is at play here.
🤣 I think they are mostly locked in to the other way from a tonal influence.. It's just that in this context the drums (and all the other indicators) take precedence. The weird part is just that they don't consider that this being hip hop and all.
meanwhile, i have always played non-percussion instruments and i cannot hear it with the start of the song on 1 at all. even when i deliberately count every beat i never feel it the way you are able to
@@aislingoda6026 May I ask what style of music you play? I’m beginning to think that this comes down to a difference in how people learn to perceive rhythm. In your way, 4 is such a strong beat... and so is 2... for someone who has spent most of their life listening to “mainstream” music (pop and rock based music) where 1 is almost always the strongest beat, like me, your view is just absolutely incomprehensible. but I suspect that people who have spent a lot of time listening to other types of music like Latin, African, or other more “worldly” music, may have a very different understanding of rhythm than I do. So I’m wondering if that’s true about you.
@@lzepln i think i agree with you, it's the music that we listen to that dictates how we end up feeling rhythms in songs like this i would say if you took genres of the stuff i listen to most often, you're going to get drum&bass, prog, math rock, and when i grew up i listened to a lot of jazz, bossa nova, and melodeath too i got rock and hiphop in the background a lot from my family, but it's not something i listen to too much
@@lzepln i just realised you ask what i play though, and in that case the answer is i play jazz and write what can really only be called video-game music i guess. everyone says the stuff i write sounds like zelda more often than not
I am a guitarist and I am listening to the beat. I agree with you where the 1 is but also I don't really understand why people are worried about the root being on 2? It's like. We need to move away from the idea that Western classical music conventions from 250 years ago are the only way to do things. btw I think the reason I'm hearing it that way is because that's where the 'riff' starts, regardless of the key. [edit] I think I understand. People are focused on 'Roll out' which to me is the _background_ vocals, the 'twin glock forties' is the main delivery. They're hearing 'out' as the resolution. I'm hearing 'roll out' as bridging the bars.
YES! exactly.. all those points.. Roll out is the chant.. the twin Glocks are the main.. and yeah, this is hip hop.. it's not crazy that the root would be on the 2..
i disagree with what you've said here because it implies that we're consciously deciding that the start is where the tonic lands. i'm also a guitarist, but my best instruments are clarinet and vocals and nowadays i mainly play keys. it's not a decision, and no matter what i do i cannot hear it any other way than that 'roll out' is on beats 3 and 4. i feel there are a couple of things weighing into why i feel it this way. there's the melodic/implied harmonic motion (i hear it as a bar of Dm, then half a bar of Gm resolving to an A). i feel like this is the crux of it. almost every melody i hear as having an 'implied harmony' even when it's not there. and then this is backed up by what i hear as stress on the words (GLOCK for-TIES, so MUCH mo-NEY) landing on he strong beats of what i hear as 1 and 3, and the melodic motion from the b6 to the 5 (marking that A chord) happening just before the second half of the second bar (so it sounds like an anticipation). i don't know if i'm explaining this very well, so TLDR, it's not a conscious decision, I just can't feel the harmony moving any other way
@@aislingoda6026 I'm referring more to the arguments people have made saying that the tonic being on 'glock' means it's actually the downbeat, not saying that anyone's sitting there consciously making that decision as they're listening. It's an idea rooted in a sort of European classical elitism, even if it's not conscious. I'm not saying that people who hear the downbeat there are 'elitist', I'm saying that that particular argument is. I'm starting to think more of the idea that people who hear the offbeat version are focused on the chant though, even if subconscious, especially since I've heard off-beat arguments saying that 'twin' is the 2 OR the 4. That would make the beat either "ROLL OUT 3 4" or "1 2 ROLL OUT" but that's not how I'm hearing it because it feels like that would be insane from a bar-by-bar beat standpoint in reference to the horn melody, because it would split at least one of the horn phrases and leave a tail hanging into the next bar. Not that that's NEVER done but it just 'feels' off to me.
@@SavageGreywolf The chanting doesn't come in until a few bars in in the track, though. People still hear the 5 > 1 movement as a pickup way back at the start of the song. I think it's gotta be mostly harmonic (some people hear the A going to D as an invisible chord change) and rhythmic (some people hear a fast tempo, not a half-time tempo, and so they hear the snare hit on the first backbeat, not on the 3).
the more i listen to it, the more i think timbaland is doing the same thing meshuggah did in combustion... he put the drums an eighth note behind the rest of the song to create an effect
This video is what helped me finally hear the snare on the 3, and it definitely sounds better that way, thank you. I wonder if in some mirror dimension people have had the same debate about Prince's "I Would Die 4 U".
That’s awesome! glad the video helped. I’d be interested to know if that debate exists too btw.. Though imo that song is a bit more easily designated as just skipping the snare on the 4 during every other bar in the chorus & every bar in the verse.
I hear it the "wrong way" and it's totally because of the tonal motion from V - I. I couldn't even count it your way until you put your drums on top of it. So now I can finally hear it both ways. Edit to add: my husband hears it your way and thinks I'm a maniac. "how would you even dance with the down beat there?". But I'll be damned if "roll out" isn't 3 4
@@SavageGreywolf sure it's the background. I hear glock as the one since he hits it so much more emphatically than the word twin. HOWEVER. Every drummer who has replied hears it the "right way" as a half time beat, so I think it was probably designed that way, not the way I hear it.
I don't hear it as a real V - I motion. I hear an arpeggiated D-Minor chord that is voiced a,d,f,a that is outlining the melody. (It is not a pure second-inversion). For me the melody starting with an a is not sufficient to imply a V - I tonal motion. If I had to harmonize that melody I wouldn't use an A-minor or A-major chord for this sole a.
@@JonasCVogt oh! Fair point. I agree. Harmonizing that note of the melody with an a chord would sound crazy. Maybe saying V-I tonal motion is an overstatement of just hearing the A in the melody as a pickup note. As I previously stated, I'm pretty convinced that I'm hearing it the "wrong way" and that Timbaland intended it the "right way", but that can't stop my ear from being convinced that "Glock" is the downbeat and "roll out" is a call back on 3 4.
@@emmysings Well, I find it really fascinating that this song can be perceived in two different ways - I tried hard to hear it the other way, but my brain just won't let me do it. :-) I think the musical background might have something to do with it - I think the perception is shifted towards other song elements. Maybe "hearing" a V - I movement instead of an arpeggiated chord might have something to do with this?
Love this dissection. To answer your question at the end, this song is built around the beat, I hear it the way you do, and I honestly don't get how someone could hear it another way but maybe it IS because of the root note. But my musical base as a child was percussive from the start, maybe that's why. Stumbled across this vid from 12tone's video, but found you long ago from your work with beautiful chorus. You are awesome, my dude!
Aye! Thank you!.. Yeah, it's crazy a lot of people can't escape the magnetism of the tonic. I've also seen drummers pretty split on the issue too though? 🤷🏽♂️ btw, you ever check out Alex from BC and my side project Chakra Khan? I think you may dig it and of course we've been in Solillaquists of Sound together for the last 18 years as well.
@@Superstarprinceaziz Yeah, he def was.. but I think since he bequeathed the 1 teachings on to Bootsy, and Bootsy is still around, he’s the next best one to talk to about the one. On another note though.. I’d be interested to see if classic funk one would conflict with modern hip hop one.. I doubt it but just a thought.
California Love is a Classic Hip Hop banger that begins with a pickup. It is impossible to groove to otherwise. I think what makes Timbaland so rhythmically gifted is his ability to weave rhythms that are reliant on the space between to catch our ear. Shock Value is full of examples (two man show with Elton John really hangs in hard with the suspensions) but the fact that this hip hop song from 20 years ago is causing a debate in with music theorists is something I would not have imagined when I was in university studying classical music.
I agree with you on the fact that Timbaland is rhythmically gifted and knows how to engineer great rhythmic and tonally unique rubs. California Love is a very different example from this song. The "pick up" is a lead in to the one that drops on the downbeat.. but this song starts. on the downbeat, it only has a tonal pick up not a rhythmic one, and is supported by every subsequent section end and start point through out the rest of the song. But yeah, I also agree that this is a fascinating debate to spring up so many years later.. hence why I felt compelled to make the video. It's wild.
Hahah SAME I heard the pick up right away but I’m also in my finals week for my ear training/sight reading course and there’s always pick ups in my dictation exams
@@nicnac5101 right, melodically it could be interpreted as a pickup if it were in a different context, but we’re not discussing the 1 of the scale we’re discussing “the one” of the loop/song.
I love that this really shows how different musical backgrounds change your interpretations. I see a lot of people who are primarily vocalists hearing it the insane way, myself included
Yeah, I'm fascinated by polarized perceptions on a common subject.. It's crazy... but it also depends on what type of vocals you are talking about.. I have yet to talk to an MC that counts it on the Tonic 1 (the crazy way).
I hear it the same way as you and I'm a music teacher. But many other music teachers I saw discussing it hear the D (1st scale degree) as the down beat.
Nice video, and great analysis. FWIW, I hear it exactly as you do. But in a very small sample size, people that I know who primarily respond to music through dance ALL hear it the other way. I really wonder if there's something to that. My wife tried to do a salsa step to the song and was completely unable to do it with "our" hearing
Dance count is a whole other can of worms.. and salsa? forget about it.. that debate is as old as the genre.. which since this song is sampled from salsa most certainly plays a part in the multiple interpretations.
It's not just that the tonic is on the second beat, it's that the second beat is articulated to make it sound like the down beat. That's why I hear the crazy version.
@@StudioSensei My guess would be the kick drum always lands on the one that way, Luda's emphasis always seems the land on the one "I got my twin GLOCK" is clearly how he says it, and then adding the 5-1 resolution making no melodic sense if it's beat 1 and 2 and it's definitely articulated in a way to emphasise beat 2 in the way you hear it
@@ClikcerProductions his emphasis is even, and simply matches the melody of the horn sample.. I’d argue the V-I resolution in his vocals is influencing your designation of the 1 and has nothing to do with any other articulation because Luda is king of accenting beats all over the measure.. he doesn’t emphasize any one beat consistently throughout the song. For instance if I wanted to point out 1 emphasis I could point to the biznass vamp where he pauses after “my” and drops “business” on the downbeat 1.. “and it’s my……. BUIS’ness my biznaaasss”… as far as rapping goes that would make no sense to drop that “my” on the 3 and “ness” on the 1.. it makes all the sense to drop the my on 4 though… But ultimately cherry picking examples in Ludacris’ cadence isn’t as solid as an indicator as other factors.. But if you wanted to look at the dominant bar structure he uses on the chorus, vamp, and verses.. his bars either start on the downbeat 1 or have a 4 or a 4AND lead in to that 1..
@@StudioSensei His emphasis isn't even at all because of the fact it follows the horn sample, which has a strong emphasis on the second note not just because of the 5 ->1 but in volume, you can't say his emphasis is even and then that he follows the emphasis of the sample, you're just contradicting yourself there
@@ClikcerProductions I might be contradicting myself if I said that he matches the emphasis of the sample, but that’s not what I said. You swapped “emphasis” for “melody” and I don’t consider those interchangeable. Again, I wonder if your understanding of melodic content is influencing your perception of emphasis.. additionally, when it comes to the chorus, I can’t perceive a difference in volume between any of the words landing on what I’m saying is the 1 and the 2 (twin & glock included). As far as power in volume (+ artiuclation) is concerned, Ludacris is like a lyrical Oscar Peterson in this regard, super even. The differences in emphasis I did mention are more about attitude (for lack of a better word) & rhythm (like the business part).. But to go back to the volume vs. melody thing here.. I just searched for a live version of this song and clicked on the first one that popped up and in it Luda is forgoing any melodic following and rapping along with the chorus in a monotone way.. You can hear in this example that when melody is taken out of the equation the emphasis, volume and otherwise, is even. th-cam.com/video/90jqb3Fy7fM/w-d-xo.html One could argue that there’s a difference in energy being of influence here, but again regardless of energy Luda’s voice is consistent. It’s one of his many strengths as an MC. Either way, I mentioned a whole lot more than this in that and my other replies.. Zeroing in on “even” and not considering the context or not addressing the whole of my explanation makes me think you’re trying to catch me on something here rather than trying to gain understanding. Which is fine, just thought I’d try to bring some attention back to the point of learning, which is my focus in any back and forth.
It’s not a pick up.. a pickup is a lead in to the downbeat.. If you listen to the melody alone, sure, but in the context of the song it doesn’t fit. Harmonic Analysis is not the right tool for identifying the beats of Hip Hop music at least not the one that takes precedence and there are so many other indicators here that reinforce the downbeat 1.
@@DiViNCi Hearing it as a pickup you get a kick drum on every 1, the emphasis Luda puts on things makes sense "I got my twin GLOCK", and the snare is still on the back beat. Plus Luda dances to the psychopath style when performing so it would seem he hears it how us psychopaths do
I do. And if this song and every subsequent section of this song (and it's respective accompaniment) didn't start on the same strong downbeat as well as all the vocal phrasing, I might consider that this song starts with a pickup note. It's wild to me though that people are so magnetized to the tonic of d minor in this song that they ignore the very common template of hip hop bounce. After all, the fifth and first notes of a scale are often interchangeable, and if we really have to go there (which we don't) who's to say that this song isn't in A Locrian or A Phrygian? But even if you just look at the vocals, Luda leads in to or starts right on "My one" in every section. If a pickup note is a lead in to the strongest downbeat of a phrase, the real question is why is the second beat of this loop so strong for people that they ignore Luda & Timbo’s common indicators? And what indicators do people have that the second beat is the strongest besides it being the tonic of the d minor (which IMO isn’t enough)?
@Some Dead Channel haha.. But really, what there is no wrong or right answer to is how you feel it.. I know people that feel it both ways that feel it just the same and some that don't.. But when it comes to actually understanding how the count works in this genre it's less subjective.. The main reason I'm going to bat in this video and the comments is because I think it's useful to understand what newer genres can teach us.. not everything has to adhere to older rules..
I've never listened to an intelligence/art form discussion not knowing a damn thing, yet having the feeling like i did - in all my life - til this video. and, damn, i wish i knew what the hell he was sayin!
Studio Sensei gets this right in 60 secs. It's definitely the 131 BPM.... even though it's easier to hear it like it's in the halftime. But I know he's right because if we make the assumption (which let's be honest, everybody is making a lot of assumptions here) that Ludacris is rapping in 16 bars before the chorus, *THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER*. It starts on the one.... why haven't I seen this point made in any of these comments??????
yeah def the 131.. though the tempo is of little consequence to where the 1 is.. the 16 bar defense is a great point for 131 though. I just think more people are debating the start of the count to focus on the part of the debate.
@@DiViNCi I hear you. To be more clear I'm saying that once you understand Luda's interpretation of what makes up a bar, then work backwards, the one can only be in one place. The song starts on the one.
@@edypenn7532 Yeah I def agree.. the problem is some people are convinced that luda hear’s it the same strange way they do.. 🤷🏽♂️ I don’t know how exactly.. but yeah..
I'm just curious if this is only a weird thing in hip hop? I listen to rap but I also listen to metal and some of those bands count really weird (meshuggah) which isn't weird anymore. I can hear it both ways in the luda song but the 131bpm or 65.5 seems more natural.. although the alternate also works if you count on the vocals or maybe the horn section?
the only weird part is the split in perception.. the count itself, either way, isn’t weird per se. It’s just the fact that people are consistently hearing the same thing differently.
the original sample from Africando is a clear 3-2 clave, however Timbaland flipped the sample, and it became 2-3. So that's how I'm hearing it. Look how modern cuban bassists outline the clave in their playing: th-cam.com/video/jaZpfT6blnY/w-d-xo.html They hit the one and then play two more notes outlining the 2 side. This song is also in 2-3. It's the same here. Hell, they even throw a snare on the 3 (which so happens to be the second strike of the 2-side of the clave!).
The salsa in the background just threw off my interpretation of the drums in the rollout track. Would love to see it visualized in Serato and see it that way. Also, does it line up with a traditional start on 1 track in Serato then. Like Deck 1 rollout, deck 2 normal start on one track and see how it lines up after beathmatching?
Very good explanation. In addition to what you said, these guys that wrote the music are not Collegiately taught how to write musical notation. So IMO i don't think think a "pickup" note is something that's really in their arsenal. Not throwing shade, just not culturally normal for the genre.
how tf did this even became a topic? can timbaland just come out and say that the way you are counting is the only natural way to count it? lmao while the tonic being on the 2nd beat could be an argument, nobody listens to music like this, i mean, what about modes? ppl just lose count or what?
I hear the one in the first audible beat (where the kick drum lies). I will say this, I OFTEN experiment intentionally and in intentionally with unconventional rhythms and ways of counting a pattern. And I believe myself to be heavily influenced by Timbaland’s production. Hearing the “one” on the second beat feels like a groove variation that I would bob my head to or use in a beat. So if Timbaland actually did create it where the 1 starts on the “2nd beat” I would not be surprised. And I would be surprised if Ludacris changed the vibe Timbaland originally had in mind because he didn’t hear the beat that way. That’s happened to me multiple times
I'm blown away, I've been hearing it the wrong way the whole time. I think the strongest reason I heard it that way is because those first 2 notes sound so strongly like resolution to the root note, a V-I cadence. I buy it that there's a cultural difference here, since in my case the harmony spells out where I hear the downbeat.
@@DiViNCi not sure what you mean, but the psychopath way described in the vid: 131 bpm with the snare on 2 only. That's the only way the drum fills make sense to me.
@@bunsenk414 Ok gotcha.. I also described another situation where the snare can land on the 2 in the first 65.5 BPM example (with the 1 on the first downbeat). So was making sure I understood of which of those you meant.
If it helps the isolated drum beat I play in the video is the same drum pattern as the one in the original beat.. That can def help you find the snare.
Your drum pattern is fairly similar (I suppose I’m not missing the loud cymbal crashes but that you just added them?), and I definitely hear the snare there of course, but it sounds nothing like that in the original to me. I can clearly hear the güiro for example but the snare is not just there. There’s the hi-hat following the horns, but otherwise nothing snare-like on the third (in your count). Am I the only one struggling with this?
@@Simon-ts9fu yeah the crash is there for 1 emphasis.. but the kick and snare are the same as the first two bars of the original.. the snare is in the original.. it's just a very chunky snare so it kind of blends in..
I think I can hear it now. But I really need to listen for it and focus on where it should be and try to separate it out. It doesn’t come out naturally for me. Though I am definitely no drummer and probably rather insensitive to its sounds. Maybe this is another factor in why people hear it differently. Your drum pattern does indeed suggest your way of counting but if you remove the snare and hear the drums as I hear them, then the psycho way of counting the drums is not as wrong anymore. And I think your argument about the horn melody explains most of the psychos, myself included who am most sensitive to harmonic changes. Another thing that strengthens your way of counting is that even if the psychos hear the horns starting on four, it is still the first beat in the phrase. It’s seems a rare theoretical interpretation these days but one can definitely imagine a meter where the first beat is not the strongest one. For each rhythmic pattern has both an alternation of strong and weak beats, as well as a frame of where it starts and ends. For example [1234] and [4|123] are not conceived of the same way even though both would be notated the exactly the same. But the horns’ harmonic one on your two ruins this for me. It’s just too strong. It would work if there were other contrasting rhythms, but this is the only one off.
@@DiViNCi thanks for sharing that man, it's so weird feeling the flow that way, i guess the way it was meant to be felt. i cannot hear it like that at all in the original so this is just... really brain bending
For your example to make sense you need to shift your beat over one beat... They hear the one on the second beat, but the first beat would be a pickup on beat 4.
That wouldn’t make sense because the beat I made had the same kick and snare pattern from the original. I’m counting in relation to the beat the same as the people who think the 1 is on the 2. If I moved the beat over for the second count it wouldn’t reflect how people are counting it differently.
I mean I joke about it being “wrong” in a subtitle. But to talk about musical interpretation as 2 dimensionally right or wrong isn’t as useful in a lot of situations and not my intention here. The point of this video is to point out the most useful approach considering the context of the music. And a “traditional” approach doesn’t service the genre or the song as much. Is what you said “100% correct”? Maybe, but according to what context? In a Hip Hop context the approach I champion here is more fitting.
@@StudioSensei No, I agree. I don't actually believe in right/wrong when it comes to music. I would only argue that the downbeat is wherever people feel it (as opposed to where it is technically supposed to be). But the fact that it's even debatable here is a testament to the songs composition.
@@mosswatsonAgain per the context, a definitive downbeat can be absolutely important. In the context of how one feels it though, not so much. But say I was Luda’s MD, or DJ, or teaching how to count Hip Hop music in general, or we were in the band playing this for a show. In those situations, it really does help to understand the intended 1. Also, curious what you mean by the debatability of this is a testament to the composition.. I might agree with parts of that but was wondering if you could clarify all of why you meant by that. Here’s a bunch of examples that reinforce the 1 I’m talking about btw: • Here Luda performs with a band where they accentuate the downbeat 1. Notice how the drummer hits crashes on the first downbeat throughout the performance (much like the drums only example in my video (th-cam.com/video/weAmMgSD7ro/w-d-xo.html): Example 1: th-cam.com/video/FKGeB9FyrAY/w-d-xo.html | Example 2: th-cam.com/video/FLUyd0T94GE/w-d-xo.html (there's more of these out there too) • Here's an example where the DJ holds the 1 (a bit sloppily at first though it's clear the intention of where it's falling with the lyrics) as they drop out for an a cappella outdo of the "biznass" section: th-cam.com/video/SlkOHso87u8/w-d-xo.html • Here's a transition from "What's Your Fantasy" to "Roll Out" following the downbeat 1 th-cam.com/video/W8Pf9Ug0I-0/w-d-xo.html & th-cam.com/video/jSSUjAKlINM/w-d-xo.html • Additionally, there are a bunch of other examples with DJs where the fader work (cutting in and out) supports the downbeat one through out the song. here's the most blatant of those examples: th-cam.com/video/nJONlTt9ZXg/w-d-xo.html • Here's one of a few remixes that support the downbeat 1 (for you "alt oners" that are having a hard time hearing past the V-I resolve): th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html • And as a bonus here's Alcorn State Marching Band performing a version of this (notice the conductor count in the 1 on the downbeat): th-cam.com/video/OU5NG_-5kU0/w-d-xo.html
@@StudioSensei re: "debatablility" i just meant its very cool that timbaland could create a beat that a) grooves this hard, and b) has less than 100% consensus on where the downbeat is. That's a rare thing to achieve! I'll check those links. Thanks!
The rhythm of the second guys voice under “roll out” plus the drum fills that actually go 1-2 feel like 4-1, and they give the latín off beat feel. Any people used to leading the downbeat not accenting the down lock in that feel... it is all up beat. But at the end the guy saying “business” over and over... that is weird. So tell your friends to jump to that end part first, then lock the word “out” as down beat. Honestly the tune accents the down beat too much after you hear it the Latin way. The tresillos accent (3-3-2) locks in “out” as count 4 and it feels like an accent like that. But “out” is down beat.
Yeah, the salsa sample is definitely a culprit in the obscuring of the downbeat.. that’s why I suggest people to listen to remixes of this song to get a more clear picture.
I agree with your friend. If you're sticking with your traditional beat count, your way is correct. But this is hip-hop, when you count it in the second fashion you FEEL the beat more. That's hip-hop.
That's the exact opposite claim that many other people are making. That the "traditional" count would be my friend's way and the more hip hop count would be my way.. And I agree the second way is the least hip hop way to count of the two.
When you count the eight notes you are still counting at the same fast tempo keeping the snare on the 3, not the half time that puts the snare on the 2 & 4. Count the half time with a pick up note, see how that lines up.
I purposely didn’t demonstrate a count from the “alt one” at 65.5 BPM because of all the counts that is the least likely scenario putting the snare on the “and” between the 1 and the 2. As far as the first part of your comment I demonstrated both BPMs from the downbeat 1 starting at 0:51
@@StudioSensei I caught that up beat snare as well. I was going to try see if the snare hits were actually on the up beats, would the open hi hats hit on the down beats? Then I got side tracked. Interesting video. Thanks for the reply.
I hear a legit accent, both in the unpitched percussion and the vocals on the tonic. The first note sounds like "sol-do". It's a pick up. I asked my professor today and she heard it your way so...idk.
Yeah the truth is it could be counted either way.. but when it comes down to it, I’m arguing the likelihood of the intended one (or how it lines up in Timbaland’s sequencer) and my money is on the first downbeat.
@@nicnac5101 I think @Mavrick is calling the ALT ONErs interpretation the offbeat mess.. It’s easy to keep up with the ALT one, it just doesn’t make sense given all the other indicators.. But yeah Timbaland is very skilled.. that’s not in question here..
I consider myself to be a drummer above any other instrument, but I hear the "psychopath" way (snare on 2, with a pickup). For me, it's the fills - they seem to reinforce my belief by "landing" on what I think is the 1. But maybe I am being taken in by the tonic, who knows. Based on everything I've seen and read, I totally accept your argument and think that if Timbaland ever weighs in, he's going to be on your side - I'm gonna just really struggle to hear it as he intended it.
Thanks for sharing.. I think Tim would too.. And the tonic being on the 2 is the only thing that makes sense for the other interpretation to me.. Check this remix out.. may help to hear the other way th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html
Something that isn't being brought up is where Luda jumps in on the hook also playing a factor. His cadence fucks up a lot of the listener's timing cuz the hook is so erratic timing wise.
Right, which is the theory I proposed at the end.. But what this has brought to light is just how many people don’t understand the rhythmic one nor the nature of backbeat in Hip Hop music.
I'm hearing the way DiVINCi does. For me first part of the horn phrase is an outlined voicing of D-Minor. If I played a second inversion arpeggio of a d-minor chord on a piano, I also wouldn't hear the A - D as a V - I movement. Even if in counterpoint theory a fourth between A (lowest note) and D might be considered dissonant, that melodic movenment doesn't always imply a V - I resolution. I find it strange that people interpret that as a pickup-note, since you'd have that particular pick-up or lead-in all the way through the track from start to finish. Having the snare hit solely on 2 would also be very atypical for hip-hop beats. The original sampled phrase might have had a pick-up note, but for me the way it is integrated in the beat changes that.
I posted some additional links that provide evidence that the first note is actually the 1 in the description.. lmk your thoughts or if that changes anything for you.
im in the 'weird' pile and for me the emphasis is on the second note of the melody. the song in my head starts with the first note of the melody being the 4 as kind of a lead in. 4 *1* 2 3 4
Do you hear this as a lead in for just the start of the song or for every subsequent section of the song? What I mean is most lead ins intro the song and then the count resumes as normal from there. Do you agree that that is what's happening here or is the lead in part of the loop and leads in ever chorus and verse that follows?
No mention of the salsa origin of the sampled tune? Even though you played it in the background the whole time? I’m a musician and I lived in Central America for three years. Pickup notes are a thing, and to assume that Timbaland only knows how to start a beat on one is short-sighted. I appreciate that others can hear it different ways, but I’ve played too much Latin music in my life to make up stories about why that’s not just a pickup note. Listen to the drum fills also. It’s all very simple to follow.
Who’s assuming that Timbo only knows how to start a beat on one? I definitely am not, nor did I imply or state that in the video. I do think however, with this song, there’s a likelihood of the 1 being at the start of the song. Not because it’s the start of the song so much as what the drum pattern, vox, and synth/song section beginning and end points imply. Also, based on the genre of this music; Hip Hop. I purposely stayed away from the huge can of worms that salsa is when it comes to the “where the one is” conversation, because I simply don’t have any authority to discuss it and frankly although it incorporates a salsa sample this song is not salsa. Though I do think that does play a part in the mixed interpretations which partly why I made a nod to it by including it as the background music. Also people keep mentioning the drum fills but the fills make more sense with the downbeat 1 to me. If someone could explain otherwise, I’m all ears/eyes.
what's confusing is that anyone is confused. typical 130 (i prefer 65) bpm beat , snare on the 3. super hard downbeat. goofy music nerds don't get it. would love to watch these people dance lol
Can hear both ways and imo the snare on 3 version makes more sense. Seems like drum guys go with the half time feel and melody guys go with the pickup (i play drums, piano and guitar). I really think its more interesting to hear the opinions of those who easily hear both ways and not stuck on one of them.
Yeah, again.. whether half time or double.. it's pretty much the same the real weird thing is where some choose to count the 1.. not so much the tempo.
@@DiViNCi in my comment "half time feel" means hearing the first note of the melody as one and "pickup" means hearing the second note of the melody as one. Sorry for the confusing terminology.
interesting, since i'm a drummer that's way more rhythmically inclined than melodically, and i hear the pickup. any other way seems insane to me. but it seems to me like the song is doing a similar thing as combustion by meshuggah - if you listen closely, it's like the drums are an eighth note behind
@@alonedownthere47 ...with so many other similar drum patterns in the genre (of bounce/hip hop) giving precedence, it's hard to believe that this beat was intended to break form or do anything as atypically rhythmic as "combustion". Given the start of every section, the typical kick and snare pattern, it really does lean more toward the half time snare on 3 intention.
You Can’t count the percussion 🥁 it’s sample based he used a machine that loops melody 🎶 What most hear as the first beat more than likely is at the end of the loop
At 4:45 when he demonstrates the "wrong" counting he's not giving it a fair chance because he's counting off beat from the drum beat. A better way to give a fair demo would be to start the drum beat again with the horn line starting as a pickup.
At 6:34 when he plays the pitches of the horn line along with the metronome, he should be putting the whole drum beat on like that and let us hear it that way.
The drum beat I made is the same kick and snare pattern as the original track. I'm counting both interpretations of the 1 against the original drum pattern relative to how it is in the original track.. It would be a completely different beat if I moved the start of the drums to the tonic of the scale because that's not how it is in the original, which again is the very evidence of the 1 where I'm suggesting it. Does that make sense?
i tried warping "roll out" in ableton live a year or so ago. it took me a little longer than usual do decide "the 1" and bpm but i agree with you. putting the one on an other beat would not as well for mixing tracks together. at least hiphop or dance tracks.
Oh yeah that's a good one.. But I got the 1 on the oddly placed clap.. followed by no kick until the next clap on the four.. then the second bar is a four on the floor kick pattern until the clap on the four again..
Thanks for making a great video on this!
Hey, Thanks for starting that thread!
Here because of 12tone. Love the research my guy
🙏🏽💜
I’d love to hear Timbaland respond about this...
As a musician and audio producer.... The beat starts on 1 on the play... No pickup note. 65bpm 'half time'.... Taking Tim's history into account his music usually makes your head bob the time signature... Good example. Jay Z's Dirt off ya shoulder
Try dj the theory you are trying to imply 😂😂😂 yes it will be beatmatched but not on the ONE.
It's just one of those things that get created simply by loving it and don't know how but it just is....
@@godsson7787 u talking bout the downbeat one or the alt one (psychopath)?
@@StudioSensei the down beat anyone who thinks different is mad 😭 and its 131 bpm then go listen to one in a million thats in the 60s. But same tempo its how u bounce to it.
I've been thinking about this for days and it's been driving me crazy!!
The original Afro-Cuban sample, it clearly starts on beat 1 - no argument there. But, in the Timbaland/Ludacris version, despite my best efforts, I definitely hear it starting on a pickup because:
- V-I motion in the melodic line, as you mentioned
- When counted at 131 bpm starting on beat 1, bars 2 and 4 have no bass drum on the downbeat. However, when the first note is counted as a pickup, bars 2 and 4 DO get bass drum on the downbeats so it feels more secure. Lots of people have mentioned the snare placement on beat 2 vs. 3 but to me, the (lack of) bass drum on an expected beat is more key to me feeling this track one way vs. the other. This isn't to say every bar needs a bass drum downbeat, just that the absence of it makes things tricky in this case because beat 1 doesn't have the same stability as normally expected.
- Ludacris's vocal delivery lands so strongly on the second syllable that it bends my ear into hearing pickup-downbeat (4-1), instead of 1-2. I hear it more as twin-GLOCK vs. TWIN-glock, etc., where I only hear the emphasis on the first note/syllable in the original sample.
- I had hoped that at 65.5 bpm, I'd hear the Ludacris version like the original sample, but the aforementioned elements just make this into a trick mirror for my brain and I can't help it! I'll take my psychopath diagnosis and show myself out :)
🤣, to be fair I’m not officially a doctor, so my diagnosis may not hold up.. But thanks for weighing in.. I appreciate the breakdown... Though I will say that there are many more instances of the snare hitting on the 3 of music like this (bounce counted in double time) than a kick on the 2 and 4.. So I think the actual 1 and the 3 are more reliable indicators than the more rare 2 and 4 down beats. But yeah the V-I motion def makes sense if that’s how you’re listening to it.. I just think considering the genre there’s more precedence to consider the song start and drums in priority.
Bass drums almost never hit on 2 and 4 in pop/hip hop music. Listening only to the bass drum strongly implies studio sensei’s interpretation because it hits on 1 and 3 of the half time feel
Margaret, you are correct. There's a reason why when composers sit down to write music, they're more often at a piano than a drum kit
@@MarcillaSmith Again, this is correct with in it's own context.. But the context here is not a composer sitting down in front of a piano or a drum kit but a hip hop producer sitting in front of a sampler.
Lmaooo @ your timbaland impression. Legit made me laugh out loud
🤣🤣🤣 How perfect that my water bottle was close by (it always is, but came in handy here).
The best part is the head wobble during the timberland impression!
🤣🤣 my fav comments are the ones that bypass the debate completely and talk about the Timbo impression.. I feel like y’all get me..
How could I have missed this channel??? This is great! Won't miss it anymore! Thanks 12tone.
Yeah huge shouts to 12tone for the mention.. and thank you! Welcome!
This is why,EAR TRAINING IS SO IMPORTANT!
I came across this and I’m at the end of my ear training/sight reading course. I take dictation exams with pick ups allllll the time and that’s how I interpreted it. The psychopath way lol ok my guy
What does this have to do with ear training?
The only way ear training would be important to this is so that you hear the 5 -> 1 happening on 4 -> 1 as a resolution, which I don't think was the point you wanted to make
The way you describe it with the drums vs. the sample is exactly what I was thinking the moment I heard about this debate. I believe the drum beat inherently (especially in hiphop) carries the beat of the phrase. So the 1 would be the start of the song with the initial kick. Snares on 3 (or 2 & 4 depending how you count it) are standard in hiphop.
Definitely.. It's Standard..
Thank you 12tone for putting me on a golden channel
🙏🏽💜
Shaolin Master Killer in the background a.k.a 36 Chambers of Shaolin. You a cool dude. Great video
The one and only.. def one of my fav kung fu movies... the whole thing is a training montage.. thanks btw 🙏🏽💜
I thought it was Tiger and Crane Fist. Which I only know exists because of Kung Pow: Enter the Fist. I kept waiting for Evil Betty with his iron claws. (They hurt like crap man)
@@MrKyltpzyxm haha.. that’s a good one too
I hear it the "psychopath" way, likely due to the horns/vocals. When you play the drum beat alone, I hear it "your" way (though I'm curious how it would sound if you put the crashes on your '2'), but as soon as the horns come in, I can't hear it that way. I can count 1-2-3-4, but I have to consciously force myself not to put the emphasis on the 2 and treat the 1 like a pickup note.
Also, the high hat 16th's (or 32nd's depending on tempo) that happen every 4 or 8 bars feel like a fill that leads into beat 1, not a thing on beat 1, but that's probably influenced by how it feels to me. Would be interesting to hear just the drum beat.
And I played it for my wife, who has no musical training whatsoever and sometimes can't even recognize a bass part in a three piece band, and asked her to count 1-2-3-4, and she also picked the "wrong" way and found it weird that anyone could hear it your way. So whatever the reasons, they're based solely on feel (probably from what styles of music you listened to growing up) and likely have very little to do with music knowledge.
My guess is that Timbaland made a sweet 65bpm beat, hit the horn sample on beat 1, and after that it felt like the 1 was in a different place, so they went with that.
I think am indicator being overlooked here is the fact that all the loops start on that 1.. the chorus parts like the arpeggiator start on the 1 and end accordingly before the verse section starts again.. In loop based music like this that’s highly indicative of the intended one (or at least where the 1 is on timbalands gear) being where I said. Yes, musically it could be interpreted differently but if we are just talking about how Timbaland likely created and intended the 1 of the beat, that factor would commonly point to the 1 being as described.
@@StudioSensei When working on loop based music with a pickup you have to work around that so I don't think thats really an argument for your interpretation at all, because if he intended it to be a pickup beat you'd end up with exactly the same situation, as he'd be basically forced to start each loop on the pickup
@@ClikcerProductions Regarding Timbaland’s intentions, I can’t say with 100% certainty either side, but FWIW I’d bet money he didn’t know what a pick up note was when he made this track (I’d also bet he still doesn’t). And I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing either. I’m just mentioning it because for this genre of music the 1 of the loop often holds more precedent than any that factors influenced by traditional (18th century based) music theory. It’s certainly more informative to consider it that way if we are to learn from what Hip Hop has to teach, which I think is important. It’s highly likely that Timbaland’s start is the 1 of the loop.. again when you consider all other precedence from the genre. But all that aside, here’s some more evidence of the song start being the 1 of the song.
• Here Luda performs with a band where they accentuate the downbeat 1. Notice how the drummer hits crashes on the first downbeat throughout the performance (much like the drums only example in my video (th-cam.com/video/weAmMgSD7ro/w-d-xo.html): Example 1: th-cam.com/video/FKGeB9FyrAY/w-d-xo.html | Example 2: th-cam.com/video/FLUyd0T94GE/w-d-xo.html (there's more of these out there too)
• Here's an example where the DJ holds the 1 (a bit sloppily at first though it's clear the intention of where it's falling with the lyrics) as they drop out for an a cappella outdo of the "biznass" section: th-cam.com/video/SlkOHso87u8/w-d-xo.html
• Here's a transition from "What's Your Fantasy" to "Roll Out" following the downbeat 1 th-cam.com/video/W8Pf9Ug0I-0/w-d-xo.html & th-cam.com/video/jSSUjAKlINM/w-d-xo.html
• Additionally, there are a bunch of other examples with DJs where the fader work (cutting in and out) supports the downbeat one through out the song. here's the most blatant of those examples: th-cam.com/video/nJONlTt9ZXg/w-d-xo.html
• Here's one of a few remixes that support the downbeat 1 (for you "alt oners" that are having a hard time hearing past the V-I resolve): th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html
• And as a bonus here's Alcorn State Marching Band performing a version of this (notice the conductor count in the 1 on the downbeat): th-cam.com/video/OU5NG_-5kU0/w-d-xo.html
@@StudioSensei I doubt he knows the name pickup note but he definitely knows what one is and how it feels, I mean one of the most iconic hip hop tracks ever uses a pickup heavily (California Love). That being said I do think the most likely thing is that he started with a half time drum beat and added a sample he liked to it because doing the snare just on 2 is weird, I just don't think how it loops is a good argument for why he probably did that. I've actually seen a lot of that stuff before with the bands clearly feeling the first beat as 1 but there are also clips where Luda is dancing like he feels the second beat as one so really I think it just comes down to personal perception, do you give the snare precedence or the melody and kick in terms of feel, it's a really cool song
@@ClikcerProductions in this genre the back beat snare more often gives precedence.. I can’t think of an instance where it doesn’t. In most examples the snare is either on the 2 & 4 or on songs like this, the 3. I think it’s clear he started with the sample first btw, and built the drums around it.. to remake this beat the trigger of that salsa sample would also hit on the downbeat 1.. he more than likely did that first and then worked drums around it. Loops, particular what the drums are doing, in this genre are a great indicator of how many hip hop producers intend a 1.. Even California Love, yes pick up note, but the dominant 1 is still where that beat comes in.
I don't understand what's being debated at all. Lmao. Someone explain
I just hear music playing. Lol
I think I mostly described it in the video.. but tbh, if you just hear music playing, I say keep it that way.. This debate is of no real consequence to the enjoyment of music, focusing on it can take away from that. Either way, I'd be happy to further explain if you really want to get into it!
Same thing I was thinking I’m like it starts on the 1 and if you’re a music person it shouldn’t be an issue but I guess because I’ve been doing music for years and it’s just ingrained in me and those ppl need to just tap out lol
@@lightsoutmedia7370 It's just crazy how many "music people" are split on this though.
nerds with heads so far up their ass they can't hear a pop song the correct way
YEEEESSSS. came to comment the same thing. I've always wanted to be able to read music, keep (count, i guess) time / bpm, and find/match note...
...but as soon as i start really getting into, at some point, after finding 1&2&3&4& - then you overlay info on that --- i feel like i just start trailing off somewhere else - like a friggin zombie or something!
idk, i consider myself intelligent, but music, in a technic sense, is muchore complex than my brain can comprehend!
***however, as far as this video's explanation, ive never heard an explanation that at least HAD MY FULL ATTENTION all the way to the end - until this one. So, just saying, Sensei, you're an excellent speaker on the topic, but comprehension is beyond me --- rn, anyway. its not impossible
Great video! I've been working on a thing about this as well, I'll be sure to shout you out. Personally, I hear the snare on 2, for sort of the reason you described but not quite: For me it comes down to vocal delivery. I can get myself to hear it on 3 when it's just the horns, but when he's actually _singing_ the line, the way he phrases it lands really hard on the root, which makes it hard to not hear that as the downbeat. So it's not directly the melody, it's the way Luda interprets that melody that makes that version feel more natural to me.
Awesome, look forward to hearing your take on it and seeing the video! I also feel like there lyrics enforce “my 1” but hey by now I’m already convinced on the polarizing effect of the track. 🙏🏽💜 thanks for the impending mention too! - DiViNCi of studiosensei.com
@@StudioSensei Right off the bat, I could tell you were going to go the percussion route - I am a percussionist, myself.
However, I'm also a vocalist, and a horn-player. Perhaps most influential, I grew up on Mister Mixx.
The thing is this: I feel where you and others are coming from with "the snare usually goes here... " etc. The operative here, I think, is _usually._ [EDIT: I went back and listened, and disregard what I say here about the snare]
Dirty South rhythms and percussion has always been about experimenting [EDIT: _"has_ always, as in "from the beginning," as opposed to _"is" always," meaning "every time"]. At the end of the day, the core of any piece of music is the melody. In _Roll Out,_ the melody is not the vocals or the percussion, it's the horns. Therefore, the meter is based on the horns. [EDIT: the _melodic_ vocals match the horns. There is also the vocal _sample_ ("roll out!"), but this is a loop, not part of the vocal melodic line]
Yes, I can make myself hear the downbeat on the first note, or on the first vocal, and if Timbaland wrote it out, maybe he would even put it there [EDIT: re-listening, I'd be surprised if he did]. None of that changes the fact that it would be - to put it one way - a non-standard way of notating the music.
In the percussion only piece you made, yes, I hear the downbeat where you put it. Respectfully, that doesn't change what we're talking about with _Roll Out._
The first note is the pick up note (or anacrusis, if you want to get fancy). The second note - in any standard notation - would be the first note of the first full measure - the downbeat.
You don't even have to get as technical as picking out the key or the tonic. Just listen to the way the horns - the melody - is being played. The first note drives to the second note, before notes three and four begin to diminish the energy, and then notes five and six act as a kind of echo in the second measure (I'm counting at 65 bpm [EDIT: I meant 131, sorry]) before beat four of the second measure acts as the pick up into the repeat.
For the record, I make no claims of being a great musician. In this case, though, I feel highly confident in my reasoning
@@MarcillaSmith @@MarcillaSmith This is by far my favorite response from an "Alt oner" because you wholly and sensibly state the case and supporting elements.
Here's where I agree:
• From a melodic perspective alone you are absolutely right and your breakdown of the harmonic movement is mostly spot on. Though I may disagree with the choice to count at 65 bpm in context of the song, especially starting on the alt one.. because that makes the beat that much more unlikely.
• You also make a strong case for how this would be traditionally notated and again, I don't disagree with that if we are to leave out the context of the song/genre.
Here's where I think some other consideration is in order:
• "Dirty South rhythms and percussion has always been about experimenting" This statement isn't specifically true, again mostly because of the inaccurate use of words like "always". Hip Hop music/rap in general is a very experimental genre by nature. Certainly in it's roots. It itself bucks the traditions of much of the music that came before, especially the classical forms. But dirty south rhythms aren't too far of a throw from the conventions that define the overall genre. If it has any defining characteristics, it would be its tempo and bounce. I in no way mean to downplay the experimental nature of the music that raised me or pigeon hole it or imply it's lack of sophistication in any way. In fact, I'm doing the opposite by respecting its common rules. And to count this song by anything other than its own rules, in it's context, is to among other things, miss an opportunity to understand it with any sense of depth. and that's why I wouldn't discount "usually" here.. it has significance.
(read on below for some reason it was giving me problem posting all in one response)
@@MarcillaSmith (continued)
• Furthermore, if you take this song elsewhere without maintaining it's core characteristics it will lose it's power.. For example, have a DJ try to blend this song into another using the alt one, it breaks apart. Try to do a remix, on the alt one and you misalign Luda's incredible phrasing (here's one of many examples of it being done correctly: th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html), try to play this from alt one and you simply run risk of missing the intended brilliance it has to teach (here's another example of proper interpretation th-cam.com/video/OU5NG_-5kU0/w-d-xo.html). After all, to use your point, what good is being "experimental" or successfully breaking conventions, if we don't treat it as such..
We are no longer in the classical era of music, but in a largely pop music (using this term very generally as defined as being "non-classical"). That is not to say that modern staff notation and its rules aren't useful to these forms of music but there have been other advancements since then that have changed and arguably elevated or created new rules. Definitely beneficial to consider. All in all, I love your considerate and careful response. Mostly because it's one of the first ones that doesn't trigger me to just list indicators of the likelihood of the downbeat 1 (which I've written ad nauseam here ha).. But what you are addressing here is really the core of the discrepancy in this debate. And I thank you for staying on the root of the topic.. To end.. I want to quote my very brilliant friend (who also happens to be one of the most musically intelligent people I know) on this subject after reading some of the comments.
"These people don’t understand what beats are in US pop music-beats in a bar have roles/identities. 2&4 are the backbeats-where the snare goes in rap music. 1 is the downbeat, where you start counting-it’s the tonic of time if that metaphor makes sense. Based on everything we know about where snares/kicks/sections of songs “should” fall, it’s obvious where the one (the tonic) is here. Use the snare to find 2&4, which are pretty much in the same place in US pop songs and reverse engineer the one. There is only one option.
We can listen to any song in C major and call it B Locrian and sure the notes match, but that’s not really what’s happening, and you won’t learn much about the song analyzing it that way. If you want to understand this song with any depth-how and why it works so well/what tradition it comes from and how that informs it-you have to accept that the song starts on the downbeat. The point of breaking this down should be to learn more about the it, which you’re not going to do counting from the "right" place.
Basically-it’s rap music. Thinking the snare isn’t on two and four here is failing to understand the conventions of the genre."
@@StudioSensei After consideration of what you've written, I went back and actually listened to the song again, and re-reading what I wrote, I made some errors, which I went back and corrected.
Having done so, we agree on the bpm and the melodic phrasing (at least on the horns - I'm unclear where you stand on the vocals). As far as I can tell, this leaves just the percussive phrasing, and whether percussive or melodic phrasing is primary in determining overall musical phrasing. I suppose we also disagree as to whether or not this has something to do with "classical" versus "pop," and how best to remix, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that so we can focus on the core question.
Further, let me drop even the question of whether melody or percussion should determine meter. I think even just analyzing the percussion, we will see it agrees with the melody.
Your quoted friend and I agree on the "2 and 4" matter. The roots of hip hop in R&B, Soul, Rock, Jazz, etc. tend to use a syncopated rhythm, punctuating the "off beat" (your friend calls this the "back beat"). Conversely, a march would punctuate the "on beats" (1 and 3). This gives a march its rigid, driving feel, as opposed to the looser, more laid back feel of hip hop (even at a "bouncy" 120+ bpm).
I sort of think we all agree on this? The question remains for me, because counting it melodically (with the downbeat after a pick up), I hear snare on 2 (dropped on 4). Counting from the first beat, I hear snare on 3, which seems to be at odds with the rest of your argument? Perhaps I have misunderstood.
Regardless, though, this is what I would propose in settling the percussive phrasing... I'm hearing 1, 2, 4, 8, and 16 measure phrasing. 1 measure capitulates with "(4) & | 1." 2 measures capitulate with "(3) & 4 | 1." 4 with "(3) and uh 4 | 1." 8 measure phrases end with a half measure capitulation which I'm not going to try to count out here. Then the 16 measure phrase ends with a capitulation that is at least a full measure. Sophisticated, indeed!
As I see it, this phrasing only works if the first beat is a pick up. If the first beat is counted as the downbeat, all of this becomes overly complicated with capitulations running into the first beat of the next phrase, ending on 2. As we seem to agree on, there's always different ways of notating the same thing, but also simplifying to the extent possible is to be preferred.
If there's a way to hear the phrasing that preserves the downbeat on the first beat, I'm all ears (pardon the pun), but I can't make it work in my head
this is big music nerd hours and I'm here for it
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This was dope and I with you 100%
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I'm so glad i missed this whole debate 😆 but I gotta say, this is THE reason why, when you're watching a hip hop performance on TV, all the people in the audience clap at the wrong times. It's technically "on beat", but it's the completely wrong count for hip hop and it just sounds ridiculous
hahaha.. Though there's deeper more historic reasons why different cultures of people clap on the "wrong" ends of the beat, but yeah I wouldn't disagree that some of that is at play here.
I completely agree with you. I can't figure out what these other people are talking about.
🤣 I think they are mostly locked in to the other way from a tonal influence.. It's just that in this context the drums (and all the other indicators) take precedence. The weird part is just that they don't consider that this being hip hop and all.
@@DiViNCi I think that's the key they're missing.
I hear it your way. Been a drummer and musician my whole life. As much as I try, I CANNOT hear it the other way. Just seems completely insane to me...
yeah, same.
meanwhile, i have always played non-percussion instruments and i cannot hear it with the start of the song on 1 at all. even when i deliberately count every beat i never feel it the way you are able to
@@aislingoda6026 May I ask what style of music you play? I’m beginning to think that this comes down to a difference in how people learn to perceive rhythm. In your way, 4 is such a strong beat... and so is 2... for someone who has spent most of their life listening to “mainstream” music (pop and rock based music) where 1 is almost always the strongest beat, like me, your view is just absolutely incomprehensible. but I suspect that people who have spent a lot of time listening to other types of music like Latin, African, or other more “worldly” music, may have a very different understanding of rhythm than I do. So I’m wondering if that’s true about you.
@@lzepln i think i agree with you, it's the music that we listen to that dictates how we end up feeling rhythms in songs like this
i would say if you took genres of the stuff i listen to most often, you're going to get drum&bass, prog, math rock, and when i grew up i listened to a lot of jazz, bossa nova, and melodeath too
i got rock and hiphop in the background a lot from my family, but it's not something i listen to too much
@@lzepln i just realised you ask what i play though, and in that case the answer is i play jazz and write what can really only be called video-game music i guess. everyone says the stuff i write sounds like zelda more often than not
I am a guitarist and I am listening to the beat. I agree with you where the 1 is but also I don't really understand why people are worried about the root being on 2? It's like. We need to move away from the idea that Western classical music conventions from 250 years ago are the only way to do things.
btw I think the reason I'm hearing it that way is because that's where the 'riff' starts, regardless of the key.
[edit] I think I understand. People are focused on 'Roll out' which to me is the _background_ vocals, the 'twin glock forties' is the main delivery. They're hearing 'out' as the resolution. I'm hearing 'roll out' as bridging the bars.
YES! exactly.. all those points.. Roll out is the chant.. the twin Glocks are the main.. and yeah, this is hip hop.. it's not crazy that the root would be on the 2..
i disagree with what you've said here because it implies that we're consciously deciding that the start is where the tonic lands. i'm also a guitarist, but my best instruments are clarinet and vocals and nowadays i mainly play keys. it's not a decision, and no matter what i do i cannot hear it any other way than that 'roll out' is on beats 3 and 4. i feel there are a couple of things weighing into why i feel it this way. there's the melodic/implied harmonic motion (i hear it as a bar of Dm, then half a bar of Gm resolving to an A). i feel like this is the crux of it. almost every melody i hear as having an 'implied harmony' even when it's not there. and then this is backed up by what i hear as stress on the words (GLOCK for-TIES, so MUCH mo-NEY) landing on he strong beats of what i hear as 1 and 3, and the melodic motion from the b6 to the 5 (marking that A chord) happening just before the second half of the second bar (so it sounds like an anticipation).
i don't know if i'm explaining this very well, so TLDR, it's not a conscious decision, I just can't feel the harmony moving any other way
@@aislingoda6026 I'm referring more to the arguments people have made saying that the tonic being on 'glock' means it's actually the downbeat, not saying that anyone's sitting there consciously making that decision as they're listening. It's an idea rooted in a sort of European classical elitism, even if it's not conscious. I'm not saying that people who hear the downbeat there are 'elitist', I'm saying that that particular argument is.
I'm starting to think more of the idea that people who hear the offbeat version are focused on the chant though, even if subconscious, especially since I've heard off-beat arguments saying that 'twin' is the 2 OR the 4. That would make the beat either "ROLL OUT 3 4" or "1 2 ROLL OUT" but that's not how I'm hearing it because it feels like that would be insane from a bar-by-bar beat standpoint in reference to the horn melody, because it would split at least one of the horn phrases and leave a tail hanging into the next bar. Not that that's NEVER done but it just 'feels' off to me.
@@SavageGreywolf The chanting doesn't come in until a few bars in in the track, though. People still hear the 5 > 1 movement as a pickup way back at the start of the song. I think it's gotta be mostly harmonic (some people hear the A going to D as an invisible chord change) and rhythmic (some people hear a fast tempo, not a half-time tempo, and so they hear the snare hit on the first backbeat, not on the 3).
the more i listen to it, the more i think timbaland is doing the same thing meshuggah did in combustion... he put the drums an eighth note behind the rest of the song to create an effect
I like it all
This video is what helped me finally hear the snare on the 3, and it definitely sounds better that way, thank you. I wonder if in some mirror dimension people have had the same debate about Prince's "I Would Die 4 U".
That’s awesome! glad the video helped. I’d be interested to know if that debate exists too btw.. Though imo that song is a bit more easily designated as just skipping the snare on the 4 during every other bar in the chorus & every bar in the verse.
I hear it the "wrong way" and it's totally because of the tonal motion from V - I. I couldn't even count it your way until you put your drums on top of it. So now I can finally hear it both ways.
Edit to add: my husband hears it your way and thinks I'm a maniac. "how would you even dance with the down beat there?". But I'll be damned if "roll out" isn't 3 4
I hear Out is the 1, but 'roll out' is also the _background._ The chorus lyric that hits on the 1 is 'twin' in 'twin glock forties'.
@@SavageGreywolf sure it's the background. I hear glock as the one since he hits it so much more emphatically than the word twin. HOWEVER. Every drummer who has replied hears it the "right way" as a half time beat, so I think it was probably designed that way, not the way I hear it.
I don't hear it as a real V - I motion. I hear an arpeggiated D-Minor chord that is voiced a,d,f,a that is outlining the melody. (It is not a pure second-inversion). For me the melody starting with an a is not sufficient to imply a V - I tonal motion. If I had to harmonize that melody I wouldn't use an A-minor or A-major chord for this sole a.
@@JonasCVogt oh! Fair point. I agree. Harmonizing that note of the melody with an a chord would sound crazy. Maybe saying V-I tonal motion is an overstatement of just hearing the A in the melody as a pickup note. As I previously stated, I'm pretty convinced that I'm hearing it the "wrong way" and that Timbaland intended it the "right way", but that can't stop my ear from being convinced that "Glock" is the downbeat and "roll out" is a call back on 3 4.
@@emmysings Well, I find it really fascinating that this song can be perceived in two different ways - I tried hard to hear it the other way, but my brain just won't let me do it. :-)
I think the musical background might have something to do with it - I think the perception is shifted towards other song elements. Maybe "hearing" a V - I movement instead of an arpeggiated chord might have something to do with this?
Love this dissection. To answer your question at the end, this song is built around the beat, I hear it the way you do, and I honestly don't get how someone could hear it another way but maybe it IS because of the root note. But my musical base as a child was percussive from the start, maybe that's why. Stumbled across this vid from 12tone's video, but found you long ago from your work with beautiful chorus. You are awesome, my dude!
Aye! Thank you!.. Yeah, it's crazy a lot of people can't escape the magnetism of the tonic. I've also seen drummers pretty split on the issue too though? 🤷🏽♂️ btw, you ever check out Alex from BC and my side project Chakra Khan? I think you may dig it and of course we've been in Solillaquists of Sound together for the last 18 years as well.
Yep, the beat starts on the one. straight up ATL. Bounce
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Bottom Line "TIMBO DA KING!!!"...💯💯💯
👆🏽Undisputed!
Better ask Bootsy. He's the King of the 1. Actually both ways sound right to me but what do I know.
I actually totally plan to.. Bootsy, and his stories with JB, is/are the first thing I think about when "the 1" comes up.
James Brown the King of the 1 my boy.
@@Superstarprinceaziz Yeah, he def was.. but I think since he bequeathed the 1 teachings on to Bootsy, and Bootsy is still around, he’s the next best one to talk to about the one. On another note though.. I’d be interested to see if classic funk one would conflict with modern hip hop one.. I doubt it but just a thought.
California Love is a Classic Hip Hop banger that begins with a pickup. It is impossible to groove to otherwise. I think what makes Timbaland so rhythmically gifted is his ability to weave rhythms that are reliant on the space between to catch our ear. Shock Value is full of examples (two man show with Elton John really hangs in hard with the suspensions) but the fact that this hip hop song from 20 years ago is causing a debate in with music theorists is something I would not have imagined when I was in university studying classical music.
I agree with you on the fact that Timbaland is rhythmically gifted and knows how to engineer great rhythmic and tonally unique rubs. California Love is a very different example from this song. The "pick up" is a lead in to the one that drops on the downbeat.. but this song starts. on the downbeat, it only has a tonal pick up not a rhythmic one, and is supported by every subsequent section end and start point through out the rest of the song. But yeah, I also agree that this is a fascinating debate to spring up so many years later.. hence why I felt compelled to make the video. It's wild.
what's hilarious is I always heard it with the pickup, aka the "wrong way" haha
🤷🏽♂️ haha.. this whole debate has been fascinating to me.. I had no idea this mixed interpretation was going on with this song this whole time.
Hahah SAME I heard the pick up right away but I’m also in my finals week for my ear training/sight reading course and there’s always pick ups in my dictation exams
@@nicnac5101 right, melodically it could be interpreted as a pickup if it were in a different context, but we’re not discussing the 1 of the scale we’re discussing “the one” of the loop/song.
I love that this really shows how different musical backgrounds change your interpretations. I see a lot of people who are primarily vocalists hearing it the insane way, myself included
Yeah, I'm fascinated by polarized perceptions on a common subject.. It's crazy... but it also depends on what type of vocals you are talking about.. I have yet to talk to an MC that counts it on the Tonic 1 (the crazy way).
@Courtney Voltz That song like this one also has the 1 on the first downbeat.. so that first kick that comes in is the 1.
The 1 hits on the “OUT”
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I hear it the same way as you and I'm a music teacher. But many other music teachers I saw discussing it hear the D (1st scale degree) as the down beat.
Yeah, crazy how split the music community is on this.
Nice video, and great analysis. FWIW, I hear it exactly as you do. But in a very small sample size, people that I know who primarily respond to music through dance ALL hear it the other way. I really wonder if there's something to that. My wife tried to do a salsa step to the song and was completely unable to do it with "our" hearing
Dance count is a whole other can of worms.. and salsa? forget about it.. that debate is as old as the genre.. which since this song is sampled from salsa most certainly plays a part in the multiple interpretations.
All I’m gonna say is people been using salt and pepper on their music and just discovered spices
Great musical theory breakdown. Also I'm digging the 36 chambers starring Gordon Lui in the background.💯
🙏🏽💜 one of the best martial arts films of the era for sure!
@@StudioSensei yes indeed.
It's not just that the tonic is on the second beat, it's that the second beat is articulated to make it sound like the down beat. That's why I hear the crazy version.
What indicators accent the second beat to you?
@@StudioSensei My guess would be the kick drum always lands on the one that way, Luda's emphasis always seems the land on the one "I got my twin GLOCK" is clearly how he says it, and then adding the 5-1 resolution making no melodic sense if it's beat 1 and 2 and it's definitely articulated in a way to emphasise beat 2 in the way you hear it
@@ClikcerProductions his emphasis is even, and simply matches the melody of the horn sample.. I’d argue the V-I resolution in his vocals is influencing your designation of the 1 and has nothing to do with any other articulation because Luda is king of accenting beats all over the measure.. he doesn’t emphasize any one beat consistently throughout the song. For instance if I wanted to point out 1 emphasis I could point to the biznass vamp where he pauses after “my” and drops “business” on the downbeat 1.. “and it’s my……. BUIS’ness my biznaaasss”… as far as rapping goes that would make no sense to drop that “my” on the 3 and “ness” on the 1.. it makes all the sense to drop the my on 4 though… But ultimately cherry picking examples in Ludacris’ cadence isn’t as solid as an indicator as other factors.. But if you wanted to look at the dominant bar structure he uses on the chorus, vamp, and verses.. his bars either start on the downbeat 1 or have a 4 or a 4AND lead in to that 1..
@@StudioSensei His emphasis isn't even at all because of the fact it follows the horn sample, which has a strong emphasis on the second note not just because of the 5 ->1 but in volume, you can't say his emphasis is even and then that he follows the emphasis of the sample, you're just contradicting yourself there
@@ClikcerProductions I might be contradicting myself if I said that he matches the emphasis of the sample, but that’s not what I said. You swapped “emphasis” for “melody” and I don’t consider those interchangeable. Again, I wonder if your understanding of melodic content is influencing your perception of emphasis.. additionally, when it comes to the chorus, I can’t perceive a difference in volume between any of the words landing on what I’m saying is the 1 and the 2 (twin & glock included). As far as power in volume (+ artiuclation) is concerned, Ludacris is like a lyrical Oscar Peterson in this regard, super even. The differences in emphasis I did mention are more about attitude (for lack of a better word) & rhythm (like the business part)..
But to go back to the volume vs. melody thing here.. I just searched for a live version of this song and clicked on the first one that popped up and in it Luda is forgoing any melodic following and rapping along with the chorus in a monotone way.. You can hear in this example that when melody is taken out of the equation the emphasis, volume and otherwise, is even. th-cam.com/video/90jqb3Fy7fM/w-d-xo.html One could argue that there’s a difference in energy being of influence here, but again regardless of energy Luda’s voice is consistent. It’s one of his many strengths as an MC.
Either way, I mentioned a whole lot more than this in that and my other replies.. Zeroing in on “even” and not considering the context or not addressing the whole of my explanation makes me think you’re trying to catch me on something here rather than trying to gain understanding. Which is fine, just thought I’d try to bring some attention back to the point of learning, which is my focus in any back and forth.
Homie it’s a pick up. We psychopaths have been traumatized in ear training classes 🤣🤣
It’s not a pick up.. a pickup is a lead in to the downbeat.. If you listen to the melody alone, sure, but in the context of the song it doesn’t fit. Harmonic Analysis is not the right tool for identifying the beats of Hip Hop music at least not the one that takes precedence and there are so many other indicators here that reinforce the downbeat 1.
@@DiViNCi Hearing it as a pickup you get a kick drum on every 1, the emphasis Luda puts on things makes sense "I got my twin GLOCK", and the snare is still on the back beat. Plus Luda dances to the psychopath style when performing so it would seem he hears it how us psychopaths do
Do you know what a “pickup note” is in musical tablature?
I do. And if this song and every subsequent section of this song (and it's respective accompaniment) didn't start on the same strong downbeat as well as all the vocal phrasing, I might consider that this song starts with a pickup note. It's wild to me though that people are so magnetized to the tonic of d minor in this song that they ignore the very common template of hip hop bounce. After all, the fifth and first notes of a scale are often interchangeable, and if we really have to go there (which we don't) who's to say that this song isn't in A Locrian or A Phrygian? But even if you just look at the vocals, Luda leads in to or starts right on "My one" in every section.
If a pickup note is a lead in to the strongest downbeat of a phrase, the real question is why is the second beat of this loop so strong for people that they ignore Luda & Timbo’s common indicators? And what indicators do people have that the second beat is the strongest besides it being the tonic of the d minor (which IMO isn’t enough)?
That's why it's called magic bro 👊👊
😁
im with you. i dont understand how anyone would hear it with the snare it the psychopath way
🤷🏽♂️ yeah it’s strange
@Some Dead Channel 🤷🏽♂️there’s worse ways to be strange..
@Some Dead Channel I mean, the “alt one” is still wrong, I’m just saying it’s ok to be wrong. There’s worse things to be wrong about. 😁
@Some Dead Channel haha.. But really, what there is no wrong or right answer to is how you feel it.. I know people that feel it both ways that feel it just the same and some that don't.. But when it comes to actually understanding how the count works in this genre it's less subjective.. The main reason I'm going to bat in this video and the comments is because I think it's useful to understand what newer genres can teach us.. not everything has to adhere to older rules..
Roll
1 2 👏 4
1 2 👏 4
Out 2 👏 roll
Out 2 👏 roll
Out 2 👏 4
1 2 👏 4
👆🏽This guy gets it.
Lol some people weren’t blessed with rhythm 😂 you’re right
I've never listened to an intelligence/art form discussion not knowing a damn thing, yet having the feeling like i did - in all my life - til this video.
and, damn, i wish i knew what the hell he was sayin!
Ha! 😁 Always down to answer any questions.
I count the one where you are for sure!
Okay I just watched this and the 12 Tone video and if you hear this on the second then you probably pour your milk before your cereal 😂
@@lucasadams3514 ha!!!
Studio Sensei gets this right in 60 secs. It's definitely the 131 BPM.... even though it's easier to hear it like it's in the halftime. But I know he's right because if we make the assumption (which let's be honest, everybody is making a lot of assumptions here) that Ludacris is rapping in 16 bars before the chorus, *THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER*. It starts on the one.... why haven't I seen this point made in any of these comments??????
yeah def the 131.. though the tempo is of little consequence to where the 1 is.. the 16 bar defense is a great point for 131 though. I just think more people are debating the start of the count to focus on the part of the debate.
@@DiViNCi I hear you. To be more clear I'm saying that once you understand Luda's interpretation of what makes up a bar, then work backwards, the one can only be in one place. The song starts on the one.
@@edypenn7532 Yeah I def agree.. the problem is some people are convinced that luda hear’s it the same strange way they do.. 🤷🏽♂️ I don’t know how exactly.. but yeah..
@@DiViNCi 🤦🏾 why... What's wrong with these ppl???? 😂🤣😂🤣😂
@@edypenn7532 🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️!
I'm just curious if this is only a weird thing in hip hop? I listen to rap but I also listen to metal and some of those bands count really weird (meshuggah) which isn't weird anymore. I can hear it both ways in the luda song but the 131bpm or 65.5 seems more natural.. although the alternate also works if you count on the vocals or maybe the horn section?
the only weird part is the split in perception.. the count itself, either way, isn’t weird per se. It’s just the fact that people are consistently hearing the same thing differently.
Love it dude! But I can hear it both ways! But I understand your point. Depending on the way you hear the whole vibe changes! It’s so friggin bad.
Crazy right?!
Are you playing the song he sampled in the background? What is it called?
Yes, that’s the song that was sampled.. it’s called “Yay Boy” by Africando.
@@StudioSensei thank you!!
@@courtneywitherspoon8584 absolutely!
Not gonna lie, good Timbaland impression. 2:49. I agree 100%.
🤣 thanks!
to me the right way is with the snare on 2 and 4
But if you hear it in the way where there's a snare at 2 there's no snare at 4...
Whats the music in the background?
Africando “Yay Boy”.. It’s what Timbaland sampled to make this beat.
the original sample from Africando is a clear 3-2 clave, however Timbaland flipped the sample, and it became 2-3. So that's how I'm hearing it. Look how modern cuban bassists outline the clave in their playing: th-cam.com/video/jaZpfT6blnY/w-d-xo.html
They hit the one and then play two more notes outlining the 2 side. This song is also in 2-3. It's the same here. Hell, they even throw a snare on the 3 (which so happens to be the second strike of the 2-side of the clave!).
yeah, and I suspect that the many debates in the salsa arena lend to why there may be discrepancy in this song.
Some ppl will never understand hip hop and I’m okay with that
📠
The salsa in the background just threw off my interpretation of the drums in the rollout track. Would love to see it visualized in Serato and see it that way. Also, does it line up with a traditional start on 1 track in Serato then. Like Deck 1 rollout, deck 2 normal start on one track and see how it lines up after beathmatching?
Not sure what you mean by “normal start on one track”.. can you elaborate?
What’s the movie in the background?
Master Killer! th-cam.com/video/dx43uPkFwTY/w-d-xo.html
@ 2:11 - That is how you’re supposed to count on! That’s how I count it! 😂
But I can see it your way too lol
haha.. I just think it very unlikely as it goes against any other hip hop precedence. and of course all of the indicators in this song itself.
Very good explanation. In addition to what you said, these guys that wrote the music are not Collegiately taught how to write musical notation. So IMO i don't think think a "pickup" note is something that's really in their arsenal. Not throwing shade, just not culturally normal for the genre.
🙏🏽💜 and yeah, they were for sure not thinking of pickup notes.. I’m glad too
how tf did this even became a topic? can timbaland just come out and say that the way you are counting is the only natural way to count it? lmao while the tonic being on the 2nd beat could be an argument, nobody listens to music like this, i mean, what about modes? ppl just lose count or what?
As obvious as all that seems is as weird to me as people who are hearing this other one.
Where has this conversation been happening, all I can find is your video and 12tones video????
It was on twitter a week or so ago... try searching the #ludagate tag
It was difficult to concentrate on your dialogue with the salsa filling up *allll the space. Just sayin... (great video tho :)
💃🤷🏽♂️ 🙏🏽💜
Agreed
😂😂😂😂😂😂 he calls them psychopaths this guy is the shit
I calls 'em how I sees 'em..🤣🤷🏽♂️
starts with the pickup on beat 4
That would mean that every other section (chorus, verse and “business” vamp) also starts on the 4.. Isn’t it much more likely that that’s not the 1?
2:53 is correct.
👆🏽💜
it starts at 1
PREACH 🙌🏽!
I hear the one in the first audible beat (where the kick drum lies). I will say this, I OFTEN experiment intentionally and in intentionally with unconventional rhythms and ways of counting a pattern. And I believe myself to be heavily influenced by Timbaland’s production. Hearing the “one” on the second beat feels like a groove variation that I would bob my head to or use in a beat. So if Timbaland actually did create it where the 1 starts on the “2nd beat” I would not be surprised. And I would be surprised if Ludacris changed the vibe Timbaland originally had in mind because he didn’t hear the beat that way. That’s happened to me multiple times
🙌🏽👊🏽
I'm blown away, I've been hearing it the wrong way the whole time. I think the strongest reason I heard it that way is because those first 2 notes sound so strongly like resolution to the root note, a V-I cadence. I buy it that there's a cultural difference here, since in my case the harmony spells out where I hear the downbeat.
Yeah that V-I is a strong influencer for some. This whole split perspective phenomenon has been super interesting.
@Some Dead Channel Hey who knows there may be a correlation between political affiliation and where you think the one is.. 🤔
I hear the snare on 2 only, because of the drum fills from one part of the song to another.
the halftime 2 or the slower tempo 2?
@@DiViNCi not sure what you mean, but the psychopath way described in the vid: 131 bpm with the snare on 2 only. That's the only way the drum fills make sense to me.
@@bunsenk414 Ok gotcha.. I also described another situation where the snare can land on the 2 in the first 65.5 BPM example (with the 1 on the first downbeat). So was making sure I understood of which of those you meant.
I can’t even hear the snare at all (in the original). If anything is crazy about this for me, it’s this. What am I missing?
If it helps the isolated drum beat I play in the video is the same drum pattern as the one in the original beat.. That can def help you find the snare.
Your drum pattern is fairly similar (I suppose I’m not missing the loud cymbal crashes but that you just added them?), and I definitely hear the snare there of course, but it sounds nothing like that in the original to me. I can clearly hear the güiro for example but the snare is not just there. There’s the hi-hat following the horns, but otherwise nothing snare-like on the third (in your count).
Am I the only one struggling with this?
@@Simon-ts9fu yeah the crash is there for 1 emphasis.. but the kick and snare are the same as the first two bars of the original.. the snare is in the original.. it's just a very chunky snare so it kind of blends in..
I think I can hear it now. But I really need to listen for it and focus on where it should be and try to separate it out. It doesn’t come out naturally for me. Though I am definitely no drummer and probably rather insensitive to its sounds.
Maybe this is another factor in why people hear it differently. Your drum pattern does indeed suggest your way of counting but if you remove the snare and hear the drums as I hear them, then the psycho way of counting the drums is not as wrong anymore. And I think your argument about the horn melody explains most of the psychos, myself included who am most sensitive to harmonic changes.
Another thing that strengthens your way of counting is that even if the psychos hear the horns starting on four, it is still the first beat in the phrase. It’s seems a rare theoretical interpretation these days but one can definitely imagine a meter where the first beat is not the strongest one. For each rhythmic pattern has both an alternation of strong and weak beats, as well as a frame of where it starts and ends. For example [1234] and [4|123] are not conceived of the same way even though both would be notated the exactly the same.
But the horns’ harmonic one on your two ruins this for me. It’s just too strong. It would work if there were other contrasting rhythms, but this is the only one off.
Definitely 131 bpm with the snare on 3. Every other opinion is wrong.
I’m sayin’ 😄
True
No? Yeeeess!! I've been counting that since it was launched!! Am I crazy?? The one makes sense in the 2nd beat!! The song starts in the - 1
What do you hear with this remix? th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html
@@DiViNCi thanks for sharing that man, it's so weird feeling the flow that way, i guess the way it was meant to be felt. i cannot hear it like that at all in the original so this is just... really brain bending
@@aislingoda6026 yeah, I'm fascinated by such mass polarized perceptions.
For your example to make sense you need to shift your beat over one beat... They hear the one on the second beat, but the first beat would be a pickup on beat 4.
That wouldn’t make sense because the beat I made had the same kick and snare pattern from the original. I’m counting in relation to the beat the same as the people who think the 1 is on the 2. If I moved the beat over for the second count it wouldn’t reflect how people are counting it differently.
The way of counting he calls “wrong” is 100% correct.
I mean I joke about it being “wrong” in a subtitle. But to talk about musical interpretation as 2 dimensionally right or wrong isn’t as useful in a lot of situations and not my intention here. The point of this video is to point out the most useful approach considering the context of the music. And a “traditional” approach doesn’t service the genre or the song as much. Is what you said “100% correct”? Maybe, but according to what context? In a Hip Hop context the approach I champion here is more fitting.
@@StudioSensei No, I agree. I don't actually believe in right/wrong when it comes to music. I would only argue that the downbeat is wherever people feel it (as opposed to where it is technically supposed to be). But the fact that it's even debatable here is a testament to the songs composition.
@@mosswatsonAgain per the context, a definitive downbeat can be absolutely important. In the context of how one feels it though, not so much. But say I was Luda’s MD, or DJ, or teaching how to count Hip Hop music in general, or we were in the band playing this for a show. In those situations, it really does help to understand the intended 1.
Also, curious what you mean by the debatability of this is a testament to the composition.. I might agree with parts of that but was wondering if you could clarify all of why you meant by that.
Here’s a bunch of examples that reinforce the 1 I’m talking about btw:
• Here Luda performs with a band where they accentuate the downbeat 1. Notice how the drummer hits crashes on the first downbeat throughout the performance (much like the drums only example in my video (th-cam.com/video/weAmMgSD7ro/w-d-xo.html): Example 1: th-cam.com/video/FKGeB9FyrAY/w-d-xo.html | Example 2: th-cam.com/video/FLUyd0T94GE/w-d-xo.html (there's more of these out there too)
• Here's an example where the DJ holds the 1 (a bit sloppily at first though it's clear the intention of where it's falling with the lyrics) as they drop out for an a cappella outdo of the "biznass" section: th-cam.com/video/SlkOHso87u8/w-d-xo.html
• Here's a transition from "What's Your Fantasy" to "Roll Out" following the downbeat 1 th-cam.com/video/W8Pf9Ug0I-0/w-d-xo.html & th-cam.com/video/jSSUjAKlINM/w-d-xo.html
• Additionally, there are a bunch of other examples with DJs where the fader work (cutting in and out) supports the downbeat one through out the song. here's the most blatant of those examples: th-cam.com/video/nJONlTt9ZXg/w-d-xo.html
• Here's one of a few remixes that support the downbeat 1 (for you "alt oners" that are having a hard time hearing past the V-I resolve): th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html
• And as a bonus here's Alcorn State Marching Band performing a version of this (notice the conductor count in the 1 on the downbeat): th-cam.com/video/OU5NG_-5kU0/w-d-xo.html
@@StudioSensei re: "debatablility" i just meant its very cool that timbaland could create a beat that a) grooves this hard, and b) has less than 100% consensus on where the downbeat is. That's a rare thing to achieve!
I'll check those links. Thanks!
@@mosswatson yeah he’s a rare beast for sure. 🙌🏽
The rhythm of the second guys voice under “roll out” plus the drum fills that actually go 1-2 feel like 4-1, and they give the latín off beat feel. Any people used to leading the downbeat not accenting the down lock in that feel... it is all up beat. But at the end the guy saying “business” over and over... that is weird. So tell your friends to jump to that end part first, then lock the word “out” as down beat. Honestly the tune accents the down beat too much after you hear it the Latin way. The tresillos accent (3-3-2) locks in “out” as count 4 and it feels like an accent like that. But “out” is down beat.
Yeah, the salsa sample is definitely a culprit in the obscuring of the downbeat.. that’s why I suggest people to listen to remixes of this song to get a more clear picture.
I agree with your friend.
If you're sticking with your traditional beat count, your way is correct.
But this is hip-hop, when you count it in the second fashion you FEEL the beat more. That's hip-hop.
That's the exact opposite claim that many other people are making. That the "traditional" count would be my friend's way and the more hip hop count would be my way.. And I agree the second way is the least hip hop way to count of the two.
When you count the eight notes you are still counting at the same fast tempo keeping the snare on the 3, not the half time that puts the snare on the 2 & 4. Count the half time with a pick up note, see how that lines up.
I purposely didn’t demonstrate a count from the “alt one” at 65.5 BPM because of all the counts that is the least likely scenario putting the snare on the “and” between the 1 and the 2. As far as the first part of your comment I demonstrated both BPMs from the downbeat 1 starting at 0:51
@@StudioSensei I caught that up beat snare as well. I was going to try see if the snare hits were actually on the up beats, would the open hi hats hit on the down beats? Then I got side tracked. Interesting video. Thanks for the reply.
@@nateross73 Thank you! And yeah, while anything can be counted a bunch of different ways, I thought that way was too much a stretch to include.
I hear a legit accent, both in the unpitched percussion and the vocals on the tonic. The first note sounds like "sol-do". It's a pick up. I asked my professor today and she heard it your way so...idk.
Yeah the truth is it could be counted either way.. but when it comes down to it, I’m arguing the likelihood of the intended one (or how it lines up in Timbaland’s sequencer) and my money is on the first downbeat.
Bro! These ppl are savages!! 😂😂 That offbeat mess not for hip hop
right?!
You wrong. Timberland is a skillllllled craftsman. Just bc you can’t keep up don’t mean it don’t work well, and obviously this is a banger 🤣🤣
@@nicnac5101 I think @Mavrick is calling the ALT ONErs interpretation the offbeat mess.. It’s easy to keep up with the ALT one, it just doesn’t make sense given all the other indicators.. But yeah Timbaland is very skilled.. that’s not in question here..
I consider myself to be a drummer above any other instrument, but I hear the "psychopath" way (snare on 2, with a pickup). For me, it's the fills - they seem to reinforce my belief by "landing" on what I think is the 1. But maybe I am being taken in by the tonic, who knows. Based on everything I've seen and read, I totally accept your argument and think that if Timbaland ever weighs in, he's going to be on your side - I'm gonna just really struggle to hear it as he intended it.
Thanks for sharing.. I think Tim would too.. And the tonic being on the 2 is the only thing that makes sense for the other interpretation to me.. Check this remix out.. may help to hear the other way th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html
@@DiViNCi it would certainly be cool to get a stem of the drums and still see if I hear it the same way.
@@potkettle The generic beat I made follows the kick and snare pattern of the original.. that's why I made it to fake an isolation of the drums.
Wow I’ve been hearing it like a weirdo but I’ve also played music and made beats for many years.
Was it the harmonic anchor keeping you from hearing it the other way?
@@DiViNCi I think so!
@@weezalicious There are few common threads for the ALT ONERS but that seems to be the most common one.
Something that isn't being brought up is where Luda jumps in on the hook also playing a factor. His cadence fucks up a lot of the listener's timing cuz the hook is so erratic timing wise.
That’s exactly where the problem is IMO.
They count it like that because of the supposed lead-in/pick-up variation of thinking. Not every song start on a 1.
Right, which is the theory I proposed at the end.. But what this has brought to light is just how many people don’t understand the rhythmic one nor the nature of backbeat in Hip Hop music.
I'm hearing the way DiVINCi does. For me first part of the horn phrase is an outlined voicing of D-Minor. If I played a second inversion arpeggio of a d-minor chord on a piano, I also wouldn't hear the A - D as a V - I movement. Even if in counterpoint theory a fourth between A (lowest note) and D might be considered dissonant, that melodic movenment doesn't always imply a V - I resolution. I find it strange that people interpret that as a pickup-note, since you'd have that particular pick-up or lead-in all the way through the track from start to finish. Having the snare hit solely on 2 would also be very atypical for hip-hop beats. The original sampled phrase might have had a pick-up note, but for me the way it is integrated in the beat changes that.
@@JonasCVogt SPOT ON! Every one of your points.
The first note is a pickup note.
I posted some additional links that provide evidence that the first note is actually the 1 in the description.. lmk your thoughts or if that changes anything for you.
Me when I count the weird way 👁👄👁
Do you start counting from 1 you gotta remember 0 is a number also where you start from dictate the pace you kinda getting it tho
🤣🤣🤣
im in the 'weird' pile and for me the emphasis is on the second note of the melody. the song in my head starts with the first note of the melody being the 4 as kind of a lead in. 4 *1* 2 3 4
Do you hear this as a lead in for just the start of the song or for every subsequent section of the song? What I mean is most lead ins intro the song and then the count resumes as normal from there. Do you agree that that is what's happening here or is the lead in part of the loop and leads in ever chorus and verse that follows?
No mention of the salsa origin of the sampled tune? Even though you played it in the background the whole time? I’m a musician and I lived in Central America for three years. Pickup notes are a thing, and to assume that Timbaland only knows how to start a beat on one is short-sighted. I appreciate that others can hear it different ways, but I’ve played too much Latin music in my life to make up stories about why that’s not just a pickup note. Listen to the drum fills also. It’s all very simple to follow.
Who’s assuming that Timbo only knows how to start a beat on one? I definitely am not, nor did I imply or state that in the video. I do think however, with this song, there’s a likelihood of the 1 being at the start of the song. Not because it’s the start of the song so much as what the drum pattern, vox, and synth/song section beginning and end points imply. Also, based on the genre of this music; Hip Hop. I purposely stayed away from the huge can of worms that salsa is when it comes to the “where the one is” conversation, because I simply don’t have any authority to discuss it and frankly although it incorporates a salsa sample this song is not salsa. Though I do think that does play a part in the mixed interpretations which partly why I made a nod to it by including it as the background music.
Also people keep mentioning the drum fills but the fills make more sense with the downbeat 1 to me. If someone could explain otherwise, I’m all ears/eyes.
Why can I hear it both ways!?
🤷🏽♂️ it’s possible to count/hear anything a variety of ways. which way makes most sense to you?
@@StudioSensei it all depends on what I'm focusing on.
If its drums, I hear it one way
And if it's the hook, I hear it another way.
@@ikonyk4370 interesting. what do you hear with this? th-cam.com/video/Zl3WZ_YmFZU/w-d-xo.html
@@StudioSensei I hear it the "normal" way until the hook. Then I hear the "roll out" part on 3 and 4.
@@ikonyk4370 interesting 🤔
what's confusing is that anyone is confused. typical 130 (i prefer 65) bpm beat , snare on the 3. super hard downbeat. goofy music nerds don't get it. would love to watch these people dance lol
Yeah that’s def the confusing part to me. But for the most part it’s people’s different musical upbringing creating the disconnect.
Can hear both ways and imo the snare on 3 version makes more sense. Seems like drum guys go with the half time feel and melody guys go with the pickup (i play drums, piano and guitar).
I really think its more interesting to hear the opinions of those who easily hear both ways and not stuck on one of them.
Yeah, again.. whether half time or double.. it's pretty much the same the real weird thing is where some choose to count the 1.. not so much the tempo.
@@DiViNCi in my comment "half time feel" means hearing the first note of the melody as one and "pickup" means hearing the second note of the melody as one. Sorry for the confusing terminology.
interesting, since i'm a drummer that's way more rhythmically inclined than melodically, and i hear the pickup. any other way seems insane to me. but it seems to me like the song is doing a similar thing as combustion by meshuggah - if you listen closely, it's like the drums are an eighth note behind
@@alonedownthere47 Yeah, I think I've encountered an equal number of drummers on either side of this argument so far.. very interesting.
@@alonedownthere47 ...with so many other similar drum patterns in the genre (of bounce/hip hop) giving precedence, it's hard to believe that this beat was intended to break form or do anything as atypically rhythmic as "combustion". Given the start of every section, the typical kick and snare pattern, it really does lean more toward the half time snare on 3 intention.
Never mind that. The real question is man, tell me who's yo' house keeper, what you keep in yo' house?
👆🏽 This guy gets it... “it” being me.
You Can’t count the percussion 🥁 it’s sample based he used a machine that loops melody 🎶 What most hear as the first beat more than likely is at the end of the loop
I haven’t seen anyone make mention of counting the percussion, unless your are talking about the drums themselves..
Blue note bro
??
At 4:45 when he demonstrates the "wrong" counting he's not giving it a fair chance because he's counting off beat from the drum beat. A better way to give a fair demo would be to start the drum beat again with the horn line starting as a pickup.
At 6:34 when he plays the pitches of the horn line along with the metronome, he should be putting the whole drum beat on like that and let us hear it that way.
The drum beat I made is the same kick and snare pattern as the original track. I'm counting both interpretations of the 1 against the original drum pattern relative to how it is in the original track.. It would be a completely different beat if I moved the start of the drums to the tonic of the scale because that's not how it is in the original, which again is the very evidence of the 1 where I'm suggesting it. Does that make sense?
i tried warping "roll out" in ableton live a year or so ago. it took me a little longer than usual do decide "the 1" and bpm but i agree with you. putting the one on an other beat would not as well for mixing tracks together. at least hiphop or dance tracks.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense and a good indicator of where the logical one is.
Hearing you count the second time made me physically uncomfortable
same.. it took a couple takes to count that way successfully..
The sensei is correct. Y’all are just crazy
👊🏽🙏🏽💜
It's the high hats. They are (not sure the term) one count over.
🤔 seem pretty on the main count to me
I agree with you completely. But if you want a real head scratcher listen to ‘Infatuated’ by Latrelle produced by The Neptunes 🧠 😖
Oh yeah that's a good one.. But I got the 1 on the oddly placed clap.. followed by no kick until the next clap on the four.. then the second bar is a four on the floor kick pattern until the clap on the four again..
you got to prove you can dance to your version before you start to weigh in, y'all that have no rhythm are out
I second this..
I'm in what you call the "psychopath" camp. But I'm waiting for Matt Steffanina or someone like that to choreograph it before I decide for sure.
ha! I'd like to see that too.. the dance videos I did see for this aren't that great.