Another point worth addressing is that it is possible to experience some of the symptoms associated with overtraining (tiredness, poor sleep, cognitive fatigue etc.) without seeing declines in performance / muscle growth. In this case, it is advisable to reduce training load in some capacity (reduce volume and/or intensity) to alleviate these issues 👍
I experienced burnout in my last track season because I really wanted to focus on perfecting my body but also running fast. I was going to the gym 5/6 times a week and practiced sprinting 3 times a week. At one point in the season I felt like crap, and got injured. After I returned from injury (about 3 weeks of light practice and light lifting) I saw the best performance streak in my life, constantly PBing and feeling super fast on the track. And this was before I knew the concept of deloading and peaking, so I was so surprised by my uptake in performance. This video explains why my performance saw a boost really well. This season I will plan to peak at the end of July, when my most important race is happening by completely shutting down my lifts two-three weeks prior to the competition. All in all, good video.
Must take into consideration each muscle group heals at different rates. Some muscles will heal in 1 day while others may take 3 days. Listen to your body 💪
@@TheDubass soreness, weakness, trial, and error. Every workout should be viewed as a trial in an experiment until you figure it out and can hit autopilot.
overtraining is real, and if your someone like me who takes most of your sets to failure and are in the gym for over 2 hours doing a push pull leg split, you know how it feels. that is why deloads are so important.
Going at a high intensity for 3 consecutive days certainly hits my mood, so I have to back off even if I'm getting stronger. It's just not worth it and affects all other areas of life. I get so miserable. I enjoy the intensity, but I have to watch it.
I’m not a medical expert and therefore unable to argue on a scientific level over that topic. However, I’m constantly at the edge of overtraining / systemic fatigue!! I’m in my 40s and have over 18 years training experience (resistance training). I’ve tried most available and known training plans and concepts. However, the past 3 years have been a massive challenge in terms of sliding in-and-out of strong fatigue, joint pain, significant reduced performance, sleep problems etc. Once I stop working out for a week or 10 days, my strength is back at baseline. The problem is, it takes only 3 to 4 weeks to get to the point of reduced performance again!!! In those 3 years, I varied load, frequency, remain from technical failure, optimized my diet etc. It seems like my body has simply shut down. I volunteer for any study on that subject matter. I’m based in Michigan. Reach out to me if needed.
Very interesting. This is also beyond my understanding and could be related to other conditions too. Overtraining is not a very well understood concept 🤔
I've been struggling with the same thing at 35. In addition to the other symptoms, I start getting sick all the time as well as my immune system nosedives, which obviously just compounds the issue. As soon as I back off the heavy lifting, I start to feel better.
It’s not singularly load, volume, or frequency that is responsible for overtraining its the cumulative affect of all three together that will contribute to overtraining. So studies that isolate just one of these variables are useless in this regard. High frequency is not a problem if volume and intensity are kept low, likewise high volume is fine if load and frequency are kept lower and the same goes for load with respect to frequency and volume. Volume and intensity in a workout both contribute towards fatigue and recovery time, frequency however is the allotted amount of time for those muscles to recover. Ideally your frequency should land your next workout during the peak of super-compensation, overtraining occurs when you consistently program workouts before the super-compensation phase is even reached. The question is not whether or not overtraining exists but how can we accurately gauge our recovery Time to optimize our programming.
Overtraining in my experience comes down to 3 things. Rest, diet and rotation. If you're working a full shift and hitting the gym morning and night you're going to suffer and burnout. Injuries, fatigue and crankiness as well as shame to follow. Diet, lack of, poorly understood or poorly applied will also kill gains. Keto bros do carbs. They time them for exercise and can eat a lot of them due to higher intake. People often have the worst understanding of macros and nutrients and hurt themselves. Eating enough and ensuring your carbs are used for activity and proteins between will save you no end of grief. Poor diet leads to sickness or glycogen wipe out. A fat person eating 1.5k kals when they need 3.6k will end up sore for days, overeating after and feeling shame. The rotation is simple. Don't hit the same muscles every single day. Especially if you're not that fit or out of shape. All 3 cause injury, fatigue, feeling like you're not capable, shame cycles and so on. Fuel yourself, time your carbs, make room for sleep and never work a muscle more than 2 days in a row.
As someone with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, I can say first hand training too much is no beuno for those of us with autoimmune diseases. Training too hard is a definite trigger for me, along with mental stress and poor sleep, obviously.
@@FlowHighPerformance1 excuse me but where are your credentials listed? i checked your website but there's no 'about us' section. there seem to be no faces attached to either your youtube platform, website, facebook, or instagram page. am i missing something?
*Bueno*. I do hope you’ve found your stride with the workouts. I felt the same when I was placed on Steroids(Prednisone) to help the swelling in my lungs it stopped my autoimmune system and I could barely even do the jogging portion of my workout
Have you always had Hashimoto’s? I went to the doctor not too long ago and I had high T4 levels and after a couple months from blood tests, it normalized. Asking since I’m unsure if it is something you acquire or born with.
I'm literally taking notes lol ✍️✍️✍️ Anyway though I'm not sure whether my motivation for watching these videos is entirely healthy, I do really appreciate having this rigorous information accessible and presented in such an understandable way. A side effect of using scientific studies to design my personal training plan is that I train in a safe way, and don't blindly burn myself out in the gym hoping to gain muscle ASAP. Helps me to train in a safe and healthy way. So thanks a ton for that 🙏
I don't know, from your conclusion I might be a rare case, although I got some useful insights for my case. In my case I've been lifting for 5 months, and the jump I did after the first month from 3 times a week to 5 times a week maintaining the same volume per day was too much for me. Maybe it was the sudden jump you explained in your video. After 3 months going for the same volume (in sets/reps) each week I started to feel fatigue everyday and just felt so tired even though I slept and ate well. It was hidering my ability to lift and also to be consistent, because I ended up going 4 times instead of 5 because I felt so much fatigue, the last weeks also pain in my joints/tendons. So 2 weeks ago I decided to drop my volume by 25%. In just a week my fatigue went out, and I feel great! I still do 50% more volume than going 3 times a week but I don't feel like trash, so it's a win for me. For those curious, I was doing 24 sets per muscle group per week and now I'm doing 18. I now plan on keep going with 18 until I feel like I could do more without feeling so fatigued. If you feel like I felt before just know a small change like going from 24 to 18 might save you and you'll still make a lot of gains!
I think ultimately we should listen to our own subjective feelings and adjust training accordingly. If you feel fatigued, try reducing workload and see what happens. Thanks for sharing 👍
I worked out 3 times a day at some points and Fucked my CNS up due to not putting enough calories back in the system. Developed a eating disorder, slept for 4-5 hours a night , mood issues and terrible concentration. Mental health issues as well.... Overtraining is real
It exists and you'll know without a doubt you're going too hard. If you're unsure and still have the motivation and physical ability to keep training consistently, you're not overtraining.
Overtraining is real. I've been working out 5/6 times a week for several months with really high volumes and everything was okay until the last two months; I started sporadically having some bad nights of sleep, but it wasn't bothering me too much. Weeks after, things started to get gradually more serious and I was getting two bad nights of sleep per week; eventually I came to a point where basically every day I was struggling to fall asleep or I was waking up in the middle of the night without being able to fall back asleep. This stuff became unmanageable to the point where I was getting depressed, totally crazy, overstressed and no more able to train; I had to take a deload. During the deload, I had the best sleep ever, I've been able to sleep for like 8-9 hours without ever waking up. Unfortunately, I was so severely overtrained that after the first few days that I got back to training my insomnia immediatly kicked in again. After doing a lot of research, I understood how dangerously high my cortisol levels were and that one week of deload wasn't enough; I need a whole month off because I'm so hormonally f*cked up that my body seriously need to chill out for a lot of time.
Yes, it's certainly possible. If you feel symptoms like what you described, definitely consider reducing training workload, or potentially taking some time off
I think overtraining is very difficult when it comes to hypertrophy exercise alone, provided you train to true failure. Few have the toughness to push themselves through the pain and burn SO far they get overworked over weeks and months with weights alone. One-sided training or joint overload are, as mentioned, the more typical problems. However, execive cardio in combination with weight training can get you in a chronic feedback loop of underrecovering. Leading to bad compounding effects of bad and short sleep, chronic irritation in mood and concentration, high and chronic systemic fatigue and overworked joints. Especially if you are natural. It happened to me when i exercised close to four hours a day, 5-6 times a week for over a year and not a single week off. That would have been impossible with weights alone. But a combo of weights, walking, jogging, intervall sprints, yoga and martial arts? Absolutely. So don't go all crazy on the work-load. Especially while being in a caloric deficit and natty. And get your protein, especially around/during training.
Yes, it is definitely more of a risk when combining multiple training modalities - and even more so when you are in a calorie deficit. Thanks for sharing 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 Exactly. I think the better term for true overtraining is chronic, sytemic under-recovering which keeps you katabolic for weeks and months and months. As with diet and training, a bad day or two doesn't matter much in the big picture. Maybe you come back even stronger after over-reaching, if you take time off. But going in the wrong direction over months, let alone years? That's going to mess you up for sure. For sure.
I get good sleep, good amount of protein and take creatine, I was overtraining and then structured a better training plan it was hard at first but I’ve worked into it along with two sports but if your body needs rest badly then take that day off as it will lead to better growth
My issue hasnt been with muscle growth. Its been with dealing with tendon issues. My tendons simply dont restore as fast as my muscle tissue. But I am a lot older than probably most of your lifters and have had a few service related traumas. I know most people who lift do so to either get big or to get strong. But I have always felt, even when I was in high school eons ago that the focus only on the muscle. Joint, tendon and ligament health and repair need to be considered when any training is done.
Very true. Also, I think that training with strict form, using loads you can safely handle with appropriate exercises, can help to alleviate joint & connective tissue stress 👍
Interesting, overtraining does in fact exists. I have been into fitness since I was 9 years old. I am now over 55. As a former athlete (football, wrestling, powerlifting, and track)who has training and exercising as part of my lifestyle, I have learned to adjust my volume of training as I have gotten older. I only weight train (full body) 2 days ( including a 3rd day of calisthenics) per week. Overall I workout 3 days a week, which includes cardio. I know everyone is different but I can't understand why people would workout 5 or 6 times a week? I need adequate recovery time, especially after getting over 50.
I have experienced more muscle growth in last 3 months since I stopped playing sport 3 days per week in between lifting 3 times per week. I have been calling that previous regime “overtraining.” Although, about the same time, I went from being slightly hypocaloric to being slightly hypercaloric. Surely both have had impact.
My best Evidence-based training youtube channel! I Just have an important note, @ 3:38, the systematic review effect estimate CIs includes the null (EE: 0.22, 95%CI: -0.11 to 0.55, p=0.152); thus, intrepretation would be like: training to failure "doesn't" seem superior to non-failure training in muscle hypertrohy, as evidence is inconclusive! More studies being published and included in the forestplot will increase the precision of the CIs and generate a definitive answer.
Yes, you are exactly right. This wasn't considered a statistically significant finding. For this video I just wanted to show that training to failure doesn't seem to INHIBIT muscle growth 👍
A lot of the performance isn’t about the muscle. It’s about the Central Nervous System which controls the muscle, which connects directly to the brain. Which will obviously affect you mentally.
I don't know if somebody have experience the same thing as I did, but for me I workout more in isometrics holds with proper resistance, let's say 30-40% 1RM. And let me tell you, when you do about near 1h of time under tension in one session, for me I felt exhausted to the point I couldn't even function right. I wasn't sore at all, just fatigue as hell for near a week till full recovery. My CNS (central nervous system) was so used for a prologation of time that I was feeling a pressure in the back of my occiput (back of the head). I really don't know if that sensation is like ''hypertrophy'' for my cerebellum or was it my neck muscles, I really don't know, but still since I had experienced it like 2-3 times with the same effects I stopped doing that. I now don't do more than 3 sets for a max total of 3min holds per muscle per exercise. I found out that more is pretty much useless and even can be negative so... If someone can relate to my story or can help me understand if I'm worng or correct, let me know please.
too much too soon. extimulus to fatigue ratio seems to be the cause, over doing a only one move is gonna fatigue you for sure, example: max jump until you can't jump more, without training gradually 3 weeks prior and a good warm up, WILL get you knee problems if you have some imbalances as I have experience, even training 3 months prior seems I was at the verge of injuries and boom, heavy monday jumping, weekend knee pain and stiffness to chronic patella tendon issues for over 2 years F in the chat, tho I getting the hand of recovery and load managent
@@navi1372 Yeah, maybe it's that too. My body/or CNS is maybe not well trained enough to support this high amount of volume, that's why I'm doing less by now, I know what my body can recover. I used to do karate and train with high level athletes, sure not black belt, but still. Maybe my return of 10 years of doing nothing need more time to re-learn just of ''how to be in shape'' mode. Thank you for your point of view, I appreciate.
@@samuelleblanc4294 You seem really open minded, that's one what of the best traits to have (if done in balance 😂 I had a phase that went to the extreme of sucking everyone opinions), good luck
@@navi1372 It's sure I have to be aware of the information I'm getting, but nowhere I've seen anyone experience this so, basically I'm more convince with logic and facts. When you got too much information and you're having mental hurdles, fundamentals should be what to focus on. Often it's just all just about fundamentals. Thank you.
One thing this video did not go into was how important diet is while training. If you only eat 2-3 meals a day and work out as a pro athlete, workouts will begin to hurt after awhile because the body is running out of an energy source to run and repair itself on.
Brigatto's study of volume only lasted 8 weeks, that's like a common bodybuilding mesocicle. If lasted more, the high volume group would have seen their performance decreased due to overtraining. Bodybuilders know that volume is the main driver fot hypertrophy, so they try to maximize it by adding sets week after week, also closer and closer to failure until they reach the overtraining, then deload and start again.
I didn't watch the video but the title screen has me thinking. Did you under train before you worked out? I train and exercise amazingly correct behaviors and so on for life!
@@FlowHighPerformance1 just found your channel a few days ago. I've been watching Athlean X for more than 10 years, renaissance periodization, Jeff Nippard, etc. Love your channel, one of the most informative and information dense at just the right level. Thanks!
Excellent video and it corroborated what I thought was the case. I have a 3/week resistance routine that at times (after gradual buildup of sets, many to failure) becomes a very challenging 90-minute effort. I absolutely get results. However, I have found that after having been ramped up to that long/intense 90-minute level for say a month, I start to dread it (i.e., the psychological fatigue you described). I can still force my way through it, but really detest doing it even if I have the free time. So, I've concluded not to maintain this level for more than a month at a time, then take a break, go back to a lower set 45-min routine and gradually work up again. If I tried to maintain the 90-minute intense routine indefinitely I'd eventually be hating life
this video came out at exactly the right time been running the most brutal 5 day a week full body program for a month and a half and yeah, even though i saw instant results, became a lot leaner and stronger within this time frame, but i completely collapsed by the end of it and couldn't even do my job properly gonna run an upper-lower-upper-lower-upper for a little, to deload
16 sets a week is the sweet spot for hypertrophy anything more then that is theoretically looks good but practically not sustainable.. The concept of overtraining is if u r not progressing in the gym (progressively overlaoding) in the 3-4weeks times span If ur lifts are not going up then you are doing too much volume that means ur not recovering well... Given the fact that ur diet ,sleep is on point that means ur overtraining according to u own body .. Mechanical failure and Progress is what matters if ur lifts are not going up over the time then ur over training off course soreness is also an indicator that the muscle has not been yet recovered fully..
Another question could be: Would those lifters see a greater increase or the same increase in strength/muscle growth if they trained slightly less, or if they took more time to recover
Can u explain on how to combine hypertrophy training and strength training, the advantages and the weakness of combining it vs do it separately, thanks 🙏
I have made a vide on this topic already, which you can watch here th-cam.com/video/FTYmYS-rL7g/w-d-xo.html I make may an updated video on this topic at some point 👍
Idk if Mike Mentzer is respected here, but speaking of that experiment in which bicep wouldn't grow after a high-frequency training, Mike said that throughout his trainer career he found out that both arm and leg bicep overtrain extremely easily, so maybe it really was overtraining and not some statistical error or a byproduct of a poorly structured research
I'd would like to say sometimes you just a break for 1 day . Cuz usually is the mind the first sign of overtraining. I can tell it by experience and cuz my sport wants 7/7 training a day to be in the nationals.
Maybe undereating could be a problem too? I do 20 min of moderate cycling or walking after resistance training 5-6 times a week, I trained 4 times a week before and hit a plateau. I already eat a lot but my metabolism is insane and my bodyweight barely changes.
I dont see why it the exercise selection would be flawed? This study found similar results using up to 45 sets for quads per week pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30153194/
I'm currently planning a 4-day split focusing on chest, shoulders, triceps, back, and biceps, omitting lower body exercises. Given that my Day 2 and Day 4 workouts seem relatively short, with only three exercises each, I'm contemplating a different approach for several reasons: 1. Training Duration: On Days 2 and 4, each session, considering 2 minutes per set, totals a maximum of about 30 minutes. This seems quite brief for a day's workout.
2. Recovery Time: Since muscle recovery and building can last up to 48 hours post-exercise, I’m considering restructuring my workouts into three upper-body sessions per week, in total, potentially 50% above the Maximum Adaptive Volume. Do you think it's feasible to increase volume this way, assuming Minimum Volume and Maximum Recoverable Volume could indeed increase by 50%? 3. Increased Frequency: Based on the same 48-hour recovery principle, could there be potential benefits or drawbacks in moving to a 6-day upper-body split, allowing for more frequent stimulation of each muscle group? Could you provide guidance on whether these adjustments might enhance the effectiveness of my training regimen, or if there are alternative strategies I should consider?
1. yes, that's short, but that's not a bad thing. It can be good to get in and out of the gym in 30 minutes and get on with the rest of your day. That being said, it does provide an opportunity to add volume if you ever want to 2. yes, I think you certainly could train upper body 3x / week with 50% more volume. You will probably see better growth from it 3. I wouldn't worry too much about frequency. Focus on the total weekly volume and split it up however you find to be most practical for you. Your body will likely adapt to whatever routine you put it through Check out this video th-cam.com/video/qUxQxlEcHoY/w-d-xo.html
I overtrained so much for my Ironman Triathlon, my testosterone levels dropped. There is such things as over training, especially with brick sessions. Get your blood work gentlemen.
yes, but it is certainly more prevalent with endurance training compared with lifting. Also, there are confounding factors which can contribute to the symptoms seen with overtraining such as low-energy availability and maintaining a very low body fat 👍
This is the best video I've come across on this subject, and much needed! I just started working out in a serious consistent manner this year as a new years resolution (still going strong!) and have seen such incredible progress I just want to keep going, increasing frequency and volume, etc. I see so many contradictory statements from different channels on here it is hard to know if what I'm doing is right. I was worried I may be going too hard from what some folks say... In a way the conclusion seems to be the most simple: Listen to your body! It'll tell you if you are good on the gas or to step on the brakes
Yes, your conclusions are pretty much how I would practically go about things. If you are experiencing negative symptoms, then it may be worth backing off. However, you are unlikely to be training to the point where muscle growth is inhibited 👍
I am over 70. How does age affect muscle growth? For example I swim 1500 yds 3x per week after 48 hrs rest between sessions. Your advice seems to not include age factors.
Havent looked into the topic of how age influences muscle growth in too much detail. I'd assume the principles of muscle growth are exactly the same, just your rate of growth might be little slower
Until I started working out (and I’ve been doing High volume like 15-20 set Per muscle since I started) I was really weak even though I’m 6’2 and broad shoulders naturally. I went from 50 kg pr on bench to 100 kg in 6 months. Is it possible that the reason I was so weak prior was because my body can take a lot of volume and therefore I had to really get into putting a lot of stress on my muscles before they started growing? Unlike other folk who dont work out and were stronger than I was before I started, maybe they need very little stress on their muscles and therefore Got stronger from just doing chores and stuff.
Its also come into play like with my upper Chest. I didn’t find out upper Chest was like below the neck until a few months ago and at that point I had already hit 225 on flat bench but when I tried incline I could take very little. Same with lower Chest I could do 225 on flat but only do like a few dips. It was almost as if only my mid Chest really grew from flat bench even though the upper and lower Chest are hit by flat bench too. Again could this be because my muscles have a high stress threshold.
@@FlowHighPerformance1 Its not an indication of t-levels is it? I still grow muscle very fast, just need high stimulis and then they grow like a motherfucker. I recover very fast, I rarely get very sore unless I havent trained a muscle for a while. Its just that I need to hit every part of the muscle as if it was its own muscle because otherwise its only the ones fully activated that grow with any signifance. Like with my bench I went from 50 to 100 kg on flat bench but I couldn’t do any dips until a few months ago when I started actually doing dips. Essentially my lower Chest only grows if I hit it directly. I do 6-12 sets per part of the muscle, and its been going great aside from how long each session is, but that’s not a big issue. I just had a little thought i had anything to do with T-Levels. I’m tall, deep voice, overall big dude etc and my muscles grow fast as long as I am giving them high stimulis. Which is why I Think I was weak before I started working out because my body just needs high stimulis before it wants to grow. I’ve assumed its basically a good thing because it means my body is just really robust, and can take a lot of punishment. So like a lot of endurance. And it makes it easier to isolate all parts of the body.
@@FlowHighPerformance1 so did each participant train only a specific muscle group? Because, for example, in the column A(rout) for G32, there are 5 exercises listed. So that is only the total pool of exercises and not each person's full Monday plan?
I have most of the symptoms. But I've already been going to the gym less and less, so idk if I'm actually doing too much or if it's other reasons for my symptoms and I'm doing too little. Man idk anymore.
I'm 21, and have been doing this ridiculously long workout for a month now and have been having a great time with it, and a lot of muscles are getting great growth from it. I'm kind of afraid of hitting overtraining, but I'm not sore (like not more than you should) and as long as I'm well caffeinated (I wasn't today lmao) it's just fun to get through. Should I worry?
@@FlowHighPerformance1 In the video you show a study where 32 sets for most muscle groups is vastly superior to less. I'm doing 12 sets of lats 3 times a week, is that all good as long as I'm not getting injuries etc, but just in terms of muscle growth it's not gonna cause muscle loss or slower growth. I have 2-3 days between the different sessions so plenty of recovery
I dont know if im overtraining but recently my motivation or discipline for training is a lot worse, I train everyday but its all at home and I train 12 sets of different pushup variatons every other day and when im not doing pushups im training biceps, pullups and squats. So its basically 7 days a week but even though on my all time training ive had positive results, now my wrist cramp up when im doing curls and im starting to do less pushups. My bicep strength has not decreased just the pushups, so should I rest for like 3-4 days then start again or just push through. Also im 15 and trying to be in a calorie deficit.
Unlikely that you are truly 'overtraining'. Although it may be worth doing half the number of sets you normally do for all exercises for 1-2 weeks and see how you feel 👍
Hi You've said that the definition of overtraining for athletes doesn't apply for hypertrophy because we are after structural adaptation not performance outcome. Does that mean that we should continue to train even if we are seeing a reduction in peformance from week to week and months?
I'd say you'd probably want to reduce training workload in that case. However, seeing performance declines doesn't necessarily mean that you are losing muscle. Although it may prevent you from promoting a sufficient hypertrophy stimulus 🤔
So why do you think that the concept of deloading is very common in bodybuilding and it is known that if you miss the deload week you might stop seeing gains?
@Flow High Performance Although I always hear about overtraining and the benefits of deload, I've never felt the difference of before and after deload. 🤷🏻♂️
@@Logan-he6qs I have definitely noticed a benefit during periods where my focus was on strength. Although I dont see much of a benefit for hypertrophy training 👍
Tendons are always the limiting factor in my training, espeically on isolations. One time I wanted to see how many sets I could perform in a single session on a triceps pushdown before my muscles give in. I lost count but it was more than 15 sets without lowering the weight by more than 1 plate. The next day, what do you know, muscle soreness and tendon pain. You say that it's possible to build up to that in the video. How would you do it? Every 3 weeks add 1 set to the count?
Yes, I think you can adapt to it, but it won't be able to increase volume infinitely. Yes, I think adding 1 set every few weeks is a good strategy. Then if you start experiencing joint pain, back off a little and repeat. Eventually you will find what volume you can tolerate and stay healthy 👍
Hey FHP i love your videos.i have to ask what do you think of 'counting reps only when it hurts by Muhammad Ali?' do you think itll lead to injury or is it a good intention/philosophy to live by when working out? is there any studies for this? and what is your take on it?
I think it is good to take each set close to failure, although you want to feel the tension on the muscle - not the joints. If you strive to chase the stimulus, this can be good. If you strive to just lift more weight/reps for the sake of it, you are setting yourself up for injury and burnout 👍
If we want to assess the athletes of other sports then, will the parameters of measuring be the same or will they change accordingly, like let's talk about endurance athletes how should we look at that?
Good question. For endurance training, you would use performance as a measure of overtraining (in addition to the other symptoms). It is much more objective in other sports because we simply use performance of that event (running times, load lifted, etc.). It just becomes difficult for hypertrophy training because it is not a performance sport, it is a structural adaptation 👍
I would say overtraining definately excist. I many people say "oh just eat enough and there is no limit to how much training you can do. Problem is not overtraining, just undereating" 😵 Well I think is easy to overtrain. Go to the gym and do 2 hours with deadlifts everyday. And dont forget to run hard long intervalls on the evening everyday of course. Wonder how that person would feel after 2 weeks. Performance would suffer also.
Yes, I the whole 'undereating - not overtraining' concept doesn't make any sense to me either. Although I do wonder if someone slowly worked up to that amount of training - would they be able to manage it?
@@FlowHighPerformance1 it's an interesting question. I dont think anyone would "manage" it, because the load and intensity would be too hard for the body to handle. Basically no time for recovery. I would think most people would feel sick if trying to do this. I just think there is a limit to how much the body can handle even though you increase load slowly. However, what you do this with someone completely untrained? Lets replace running with some brutal daily intervals on a stationary bike or eliptical to avoid injury and brutal full body strength 3 hours per day but with exercises chosen to reduce injury risk. Ok, if they even managed to do this for 2 weeks without injuring themselves, would they increase their performance after those 2 insane week? Maybe actually. But I would imagine they would feel horrible at the same time. Would they then be considered overtrained? I would say yes, because with a normal program they would probably have better development in performance. There must be some heart rate test? Variability? Stress hormones? Testosterone? Blood tests? That at least combined can show overtraining? No?
Btw we had a professional cross country skier in our country that increased the hard endurance days per week from 2-3(which is the standard) to 9-12 per week. It ended very badly.
Btw it was a research team that was "behind" this training. They had found out that vo2 max sessions had a great effect on vo2 max and vo2 max was strongly correlated with performance. So why the hell haven't we already done vo2 max sessions daily? Well, I think they forgot something called recovery that the body for some reason need after a hard training session.
Mmm... after watching this, actually got me thinking about what might be the reasons for catabolism (probably using more weight that advise + poor diet, but not sure)... and exactly what is Junk volume?, since soooo many content creators reference it
How the heck does one 24 sets a week for a muscle when a muscle needs at least 48 hours to recuperate? Who's going to do 12 sets per session for a single muscle(group)?
@@angel_machariel Volume refers to total number of sets - not sets x reps (that is called volume load). You can achieve this by performing 24 sets in a single workout, 12 sets across 2x workouts / week, 8 sets across 3x workouts / week, 6 sets across 4x workouts / week etc. You don't necessarily need 48 hours to recover either. Check out this video for more detail th-cam.com/video/qUxQxlEcHoY/w-d-xo.html
Systemic fatigue is often overblown I'd agree with your latter summary tbh it's like psychological especially in RT people and the evidence is in tbe first study
Mike mentzer would hate this video. 32 sets per muscle group!?! There s no way your training hard enough if you can get 32 sets! After about 8 sets per muscle group I realize the effect of diminishing returns every set after and therefore wasting my time.
Mentzer was always searching for the least amount of work needed to stimulate growth. It’s shown that while you can still see some growth with minimalist training, it’s just not optimal at least for naturals. Near the end of his life he would advocate training around 1 time a week and only one body part per week, with only one set. He spoke well and was very charismatic however he is more of a fitness charlatan.
an example from real life - a friend that does calisthenics mostly said to me that he felt he cant grow anymore because, in his words, he probably reached his genetic potential after training for 10 years (he is 23, haha).. and thats funny to me because i see his workouts and they take over 1.5h to complete, lots of rest, lots of volume.. he feels the pump but cant grow, would you not call that 'overtraining'? in a way it certainly is not because there are none of the after-effects you mention in the video but there is also no growth because he does so much junk volume. is he undertraining then? again.. not in my opinion because he tires out his muscles, just in the wrong way. another point of view i have is this - from the point of view of science 'overtraining' should be the end result but thats impossible in reality because of body recovery and adaptation.. therefore its still training, a process.. that has no end result unless an injury or your own decision halts the process. so at the core of it is recovery isnt it? its not frequency, not volume..and the most overlooked thing about recovery is it starts at the same time as you begin your workout, and, throughout the day for that matter even if you arent training because its a constant. already mentioned junk volume above but doing the opposite - do more intense work than necessary would lead to longer recovery time and it stacks up over time. if you train harder than you should and have planned 3 sessions per week for the same muscle group then over time you will experience mental fatigue and ultimately its your brain that operates your muscles, they are not autonomous.. thats what happened to me
I’d say your friend isn’t growing because he either isn’t eating enough to grow, or isn’t progressively overloading on his lifts, which is very likely due to only training with calisthenics.
@@FlowHighPerformance1Well obviously not all overtraining can be reported as ''bros'' across the world are not part of a research :) What I tried to point to was the limitations of various studies, not having adequate duration, not having an adjusted diet standard, not establishing a whole global training regiment to asses and those that are close to this level are rare. I mean a real world scenario needs to be done for weeks months.
I do full body routine with one day apart. 2 sets*12 reps each exercise for each session. Weekly it gets 6 0r 8 sets, but is it good enough? I do train hard even with 2 sets of each exercises
I think the definition of overtaining is vague because of evolution. Humans are the only animal on the planet that exercises for recreational reasons. In the wild, these stimulations are a result of responding to danger, or obtaining food source. If you made a cat run on a treadmill everyday, it would eventually die from stress because it's body is in a constant state of fight or flight. With that said, I think natural selection is in the works here. Some people can train better than others and respond to stress better than others. In the wild, these people will better fit the environment that's causes these stressors but since we're all people and living in the world, we'd just feel tired or fatigued.
Never thought of it in this way before, but it makes sense. I definitely think evolution plays a role in this concept as it does with all other human physiology too 👍
I did ppl upper low 5 day split but I have changed to 3 days full body because I felt tired. Feel a lot stronger now but worry case I am under training! What do you think? What split would you recommend? I am skinny lean looking to build muscle. Thanks
@@FlowHighPerformance1 In order to be productive, exercise must be INTENSE BRIEF AND INFREQUENT if you're not making progress, either you're violating First Second or all principles of THE ONE AND ONLY VALID SCIENTIFIC APPROACH TO BODYBUILDING
6:37 The 7% difference between groups in bicep growth is a statistical error, yet the 1% difference in quad and lat growth isn’t? That is a very strange interpretation of that study. Biceps are exerted during every upper-body exercise. Name a single upper body exercise in which biceps don’t play a significant role in stability. This was certainly compounded by that particular routine followed in The study! I have no doubt that you can train using an aggressive, high volume program, but you must realize that most studies focus on young people with less than 6 months of training background. Of course these people will have a tougher time overtraining! It is almost impossible for newbies to perform too much volume Even the experienced power lifter case you mentioned consisted of three guys, (statistically useless,) and had no control group. I know there ain’t a lot of research on this topic, but you’re really grasping at straws. What is my point? I don’t know. Sorry if I was kind of mean during this comment. I honestly regret writing it.
Yeah this comment fucking sucks. You’re just doing your best man. I refuse to claim that I know more than you. Even though I have some shitty ACE certification doesn’t mean I actually understand the literature. I just memorized what u had to pass the test. You have clearly put the time into comprehending the research.
that's okay, I understand your frustration. It may certainly have been due to the biceps being trained too much to recover from. Although based on the totality of all the evidence, I just don't think that most people are going to see losses in muscle thickness if they train on consecutive days. And yes, we are grasping at straws here, because there simply isn't all that much high-quality evidence for hypertrophy training. Until more research come out, this is what we are relying on - in addition to anecdotes & observations in the real world 👍
Are you overtraining? Almost certainly not. Are you lazy and looking for excuses? Are you not eating right? Are you not sleeping/recovering? One of these is far and away more likely than “overtraining.” That word gets thrown around way too much in internet fitness land
@@FlowHighPerformance1 I agree it is a myth for resistance training but it is not for people like long distance runners and people who are doing stuff like basket ball because you can do those things much longer with better preformince compared to resistance training.
Psychological thing is definitely real, early on I had a massive jump in my deadlift over the previous week most likely form working on my mind-muscle connection in my legs and building up my confidence to attempt a lift well above what I had previously been topping out at. The muscle was there just needed the CNS to finally activate it effectively.
Another point worth addressing is that it is possible to experience some of the symptoms associated with overtraining (tiredness, poor sleep, cognitive fatigue etc.) without seeing declines in performance / muscle growth. In this case, it is advisable to reduce training load in some capacity (reduce volume and/or intensity) to alleviate these issues 👍
😊😊😊😊😊
I experienced burnout in my last track season because I really wanted to focus on perfecting my body but also running fast. I was going to the gym 5/6 times a week and practiced sprinting 3 times a week. At one point in the season I felt like crap, and got injured. After I returned from injury (about 3 weeks of light practice and light lifting) I saw the best performance streak in my life, constantly PBing and feeling super fast on the track. And this was before I knew the concept of deloading and peaking, so I was so surprised by my uptake in performance. This video explains why my performance saw a boost really well.
This season I will plan to peak at the end of July, when my most important race is happening by completely shutting down my lifts two-three weeks prior to the competition.
All in all, good video.
Yes, sounds like overreaching to me. You can use this to your advantage to peak for competition 👍
Must take into consideration each muscle group heals at different rates. Some muscles will heal in 1 day while others may take 3 days. Listen to your body 💪
But how? The body doesn't speak any understandable language. It barely even hints basic problems aka hunger or sleepiness.
@@TheDubass depends on load, compound movements push the nervous system and fatigue more
@@TheDubass soreness, weakness, trial, and error. Every workout should be viewed as a trial in an experiment until you figure it out and can hit autopilot.
@@TheDubass
That's sounds like a YOU problem, not a me problem
Smh 😔😔😔 smh
That is absolutely not true
overtraining is real, and if your someone like me who takes most of your sets to failure and are in the gym for over 2 hours doing a push pull leg split, you know how it feels. that is why deloads are so important.
Going at a high intensity for 3 consecutive days certainly hits my mood, so I have to back off even if I'm getting stronger. It's just not worth it and affects all other areas of life. I get so miserable. I enjoy the intensity, but I have to watch it.
Yes, if you are experiencing negative mood states due to excessive training, its probably a good idea to back off 👍
I’m not a medical expert and therefore unable to argue on a scientific level over that topic.
However, I’m constantly at the edge of overtraining / systemic fatigue!! I’m in my 40s and have over 18 years training experience (resistance training).
I’ve tried most available and known training plans and concepts. However, the past 3 years have been a massive challenge in terms of sliding in-and-out of strong fatigue, joint pain, significant reduced performance, sleep problems etc. Once I stop working out for a week or 10 days, my strength is back at baseline. The problem is, it takes only 3 to 4 weeks to get to the point of reduced performance again!!!
In those 3 years, I varied load, frequency, remain from technical failure, optimized my diet etc.
It seems like my body has simply shut down.
I volunteer for any study on that subject matter.
I’m based in Michigan. Reach out to me if needed.
Very interesting. This is also beyond my understanding and could be related to other conditions too. Overtraining is not a very well understood concept 🤔
I've been struggling with the same thing at 35. In addition to the other symptoms, I start getting sick all the time as well as my immune system nosedives, which obviously just compounds the issue. As soon as I back off the heavy lifting, I start to feel better.
It’s not singularly load, volume, or frequency that is responsible for overtraining its the cumulative affect of all three together that will contribute to overtraining. So studies that isolate just one of these variables are useless in this regard. High frequency is not a problem if volume and intensity are kept low, likewise high volume is fine if load and frequency are kept lower and the same goes for load with respect to frequency and volume.
Volume and intensity in a workout both contribute towards fatigue and recovery time, frequency however is the allotted amount of time for those muscles to recover. Ideally your frequency should land your next workout during the peak of super-compensation, overtraining occurs when you consistently program workouts before the super-compensation phase is even reached.
The question is not whether or not overtraining exists but how can we accurately gauge our recovery Time to optimize our programming.
I love this guy! He puts everything in such a concise way
glad to hear it 👍
i like the timing ,its perfect
Overtraining in my experience comes down to 3 things. Rest, diet and rotation.
If you're working a full shift and hitting the gym morning and night you're going to suffer and burnout. Injuries, fatigue and crankiness as well as shame to follow.
Diet, lack of, poorly understood or poorly applied will also kill gains. Keto bros do carbs. They time them for exercise and can eat a lot of them due to higher intake. People often have the worst understanding of macros and nutrients and hurt themselves. Eating enough and ensuring your carbs are used for activity and proteins between will save you no end of grief. Poor diet leads to sickness or glycogen wipe out. A fat person eating 1.5k kals when they need 3.6k will end up sore for days, overeating after and feeling shame.
The rotation is simple. Don't hit the same muscles every single day. Especially if you're not that fit or out of shape.
All 3 cause injury, fatigue, feeling like you're not capable, shame cycles and so on. Fuel yourself, time your carbs, make room for sleep and never work a muscle more than 2 days in a row.
I'm going through this right now. Working on increasing my vertical and after 12 weeks of training I feel less driven to train.
As someone with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, I can say first hand training too much is no beuno for those of us with autoimmune diseases. Training too hard is a definite trigger for me, along with mental stress and poor sleep, obviously.
Yes, certain conditions may further impact recovery and fatigue 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 excuse me but where are your credentials listed? i checked your website but there's no 'about us' section. there seem to be no faces attached to either your youtube platform, website, facebook, or instagram page. am i missing something?
*Bueno*. I do hope you’ve found your stride with the workouts. I felt the same when I was placed on Steroids(Prednisone) to help the swelling in my lungs it stopped my autoimmune system and I could barely even do the jogging portion of my workout
Have you always had Hashimoto’s? I went to the doctor not too long ago and I had high T4 levels and after a couple months from blood tests, it normalized. Asking since I’m unsure if it is something you acquire or born with.
Do you eat soy everyday?
I'm literally taking notes lol ✍️✍️✍️
Anyway though I'm not sure whether my motivation for watching these videos is entirely healthy, I do really appreciate having this rigorous information accessible and presented in such an understandable way. A side effect of using scientific studies to design my personal training plan is that I train in a safe way, and don't blindly burn myself out in the gym hoping to gain muscle ASAP. Helps me to train in a safe and healthy way. So thanks a ton for that 🙏
Glad the videos are helpful 👍
Wtf, Literally need this video now. Asking the same question myself,
the timing is so perfect
I don't know, from your conclusion I might be a rare case, although I got some useful insights for my case. In my case I've been lifting for 5 months, and the jump I did after the first month from 3 times a week to 5 times a week maintaining the same volume per day was too much for me. Maybe it was the sudden jump you explained in your video. After 3 months going for the same volume (in sets/reps) each week I started to feel fatigue everyday and just felt so tired even though I slept and ate well. It was hidering my ability to lift and also to be consistent, because I ended up going 4 times instead of 5 because I felt so much fatigue, the last weeks also pain in my joints/tendons. So 2 weeks ago I decided to drop my volume by 25%. In just a week my fatigue went out, and I feel great! I still do 50% more volume than going 3 times a week but I don't feel like trash, so it's a win for me. For those curious, I was doing 24 sets per muscle group per week and now I'm doing 18. I now plan on keep going with 18 until I feel like I could do more without feeling so fatigued. If you feel like I felt before just know a small change like going from 24 to 18 might save you and you'll still make a lot of gains!
I think ultimately we should listen to our own subjective feelings and adjust training accordingly. If you feel fatigued, try reducing workload and see what happens. Thanks for sharing 👍
I worked out 3 times a day at some points and Fucked my CNS up due to not putting enough calories back in the system. Developed a eating disorder, slept for 4-5 hours a night , mood issues and terrible concentration. Mental health issues as well.... Overtraining is real
Yes, these symptoms of overtraining are definitely real. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that muscle growth is inhibited 🤔
I meant muscle growth to my full potential if i was eating right sleeping training the right way@@FlowHighPerformance1
It exists and you'll know without a doubt you're going too hard. If you're unsure and still have the motivation and physical ability to keep training consistently, you're not overtraining.
Exactly right. Well said 👏
Overtraining is real. I've been working out 5/6 times a week for several months with really high volumes and everything was okay until the last two months; I started sporadically having some bad nights of sleep, but it wasn't bothering me too much. Weeks after, things started to get gradually more serious and I was getting two bad nights of sleep per week; eventually I came to a point where basically every day I was struggling to fall asleep or I was waking up in the middle of the night without being able to fall back asleep. This stuff became unmanageable to the point where I was getting depressed, totally crazy, overstressed and no more able to train; I had to take a deload. During the deload, I had the best sleep ever, I've been able to sleep for like 8-9 hours without ever waking up. Unfortunately, I was so severely overtrained that after the first few days that I got back to training my insomnia immediatly kicked in again. After doing a lot of research, I understood how dangerously high my cortisol levels were and that one week of deload wasn't enough; I need a whole month off because I'm so hormonally f*cked up that my body seriously need to chill out for a lot of time.
Yes, it's certainly possible. If you feel symptoms like what you described, definitely consider reducing training workload, or potentially taking some time off
I think overtraining is very difficult when it comes to hypertrophy exercise alone, provided you train to true failure. Few have the toughness to push themselves through the pain and burn SO far they get overworked over weeks and months with weights alone. One-sided training or joint overload are, as mentioned, the more typical problems.
However, execive cardio in combination with weight training can get you in a chronic feedback loop of underrecovering. Leading to bad compounding effects of bad and short sleep, chronic irritation in mood and concentration, high and chronic systemic fatigue and overworked joints. Especially if you are natural.
It happened to me when i exercised close to four hours a day, 5-6 times a week for over a year and not a single week off. That would have been impossible with weights alone. But a combo of weights, walking, jogging, intervall sprints, yoga and martial arts? Absolutely.
So don't go all crazy on the work-load. Especially while being in a caloric deficit and natty. And get your protein, especially around/during training.
Yes, it is definitely more of a risk when combining multiple training modalities - and even more so when you are in a calorie deficit. Thanks for sharing 👍
Don't forget to sleep 🗣🗣🗣
Totally agree.
@@FlowHighPerformance1 Exactly. I think the better term for true overtraining is chronic, sytemic under-recovering which keeps you katabolic for weeks and months and months. As with diet and training, a bad day or two doesn't matter much in the big picture. Maybe you come back even stronger after over-reaching, if you take time off. But going in the wrong direction over months, let alone years? That's going to mess you up for sure. For sure.
@@Gambit-YT too much too soon, I relate to you
I get good sleep, good amount of protein and take creatine, I was overtraining and then structured a better training plan it was hard at first but I’ve worked into it along with two sports but if your body needs rest badly then take that day off as it will lead to better growth
Best fitness education channel on youtube for sure💪🏼
Close, but i Think House of Hypertrophy edges the win
Renaissance periodization
My issue hasnt been with muscle growth. Its been with dealing with tendon issues. My tendons simply dont restore as fast as my muscle tissue. But I am a lot older than probably most of your lifters and have had a few service related traumas.
I know most people who lift do so to either get big or to get strong. But I have always felt, even when I was in high school eons ago that the focus only on the muscle. Joint, tendon and ligament health and repair need to be considered when any training is done.
Very true. Also, I think that training with strict form, using loads you can safely handle with appropriate exercises, can help to alleviate joint & connective tissue stress 👍
Interesting, overtraining does in fact exists. I have been into fitness since I was 9 years old. I am now over 55. As a former athlete (football, wrestling, powerlifting, and track)who has training and exercising as part of my lifestyle, I have learned to adjust my volume of training as I have gotten older. I only weight train (full body) 2 days ( including a 3rd day of calisthenics) per week. Overall I workout 3 days a week, which includes cardio. I know everyone is different but I can't understand why people would workout 5 or 6 times a week? I need adequate recovery time, especially after getting over 50.
Insane efforts. I really benefit a lot from your videos. Keep up the hard work, bud.
Cheers, glad to hear it 👍
I have experienced more muscle growth in last 3 months since I stopped playing sport 3 days per week in between lifting 3 times per week. I have been calling that previous regime “overtraining.”
Although, about the same time, I went from being slightly hypocaloric to being slightly hypercaloric.
Surely both have had impact.
My best Evidence-based training youtube channel!
I Just have an important note, @ 3:38, the systematic review effect estimate CIs includes the null (EE: 0.22, 95%CI: -0.11 to 0.55, p=0.152); thus, intrepretation would be like: training to failure "doesn't" seem superior to non-failure training in muscle hypertrohy, as evidence is inconclusive!
More studies being published and included in the forestplot will increase the precision of the CIs and generate a definitive answer.
Yes, you are exactly right. This wasn't considered a statistically significant finding. For this video I just wanted to show that training to failure doesn't seem to INHIBIT muscle growth 👍
If only there was a way to get CEUs from these videos. Your channel is such a great resource for exercise science!
Bro read three articles and is now an expert
who claimed to be an expert?
A lot of the performance isn’t about the muscle. It’s about the Central Nervous System which controls the muscle, which connects directly to the brain. Which will obviously affect you mentally.
Yes, these would result in some of the symptoms of overtraining, but might not necessarily inhibit muscle growth 🤔
It's lack of sleep guys, thats it. When you don't get enough rest you are risking getting hurt more. Saved you 16 minutes
Sleep is definitely important 💤
I don't know if somebody have experience the same thing as I did, but for me I workout more in isometrics holds with proper resistance, let's say 30-40% 1RM. And let me tell you, when you do about near 1h of time under tension in one session, for me I felt exhausted to the point I couldn't even function right. I wasn't sore at all, just fatigue as hell for near a week till full recovery. My CNS (central nervous system) was so used for a prologation of time that I was feeling a pressure in the back of my occiput (back of the head). I really don't know if that sensation is like ''hypertrophy'' for my cerebellum or was it my neck muscles, I really don't know, but still since I had experienced it like 2-3 times with the same effects I stopped doing that.
I now don't do more than 3 sets for a max total of 3min holds per muscle per exercise. I found out that more is pretty much useless and even can be negative so...
If someone can relate to my story or can help me understand if I'm worng or correct, let me know please.
too much too soon.
extimulus to fatigue ratio seems to be the cause, over doing a only one move is gonna fatigue you for sure, example: max jump until you can't jump more, without training gradually 3 weeks prior and a good warm up, WILL get you knee problems if you have some imbalances as I have experience, even training 3 months prior seems I was at the verge of injuries and boom, heavy monday jumping, weekend knee pain and stiffness to chronic patella tendon issues for over 2 years F in the chat, tho I getting the hand of recovery and load managent
@@navi1372 Yeah, maybe it's that too. My body/or CNS is maybe not well trained enough to support this high amount of volume, that's why I'm doing less by now, I know what my body can recover. I used to do karate and train with high level athletes, sure not black belt, but still. Maybe my return of 10 years of doing nothing need more time to re-learn just of ''how to be in shape'' mode.
Thank you for your point of view, I appreciate.
@@samuelleblanc4294 You seem really open minded, that's one what of the best traits to have (if done in balance 😂 I had a phase that went to the extreme of sucking everyone opinions), good luck
@@navi1372 It's sure I have to be aware of the information I'm getting, but nowhere I've seen anyone experience this so, basically I'm more convince with logic and facts.
When you got too much information and you're having mental hurdles, fundamentals should be what to focus on. Often it's just all just about fundamentals.
Thank you.
Nice, good night
One thing this video did not go into was how important diet is while training. If you only eat 2-3 meals a day and work out as a pro athlete, workouts will begin to hurt after awhile because the body is running out of an energy source to run and repair itself on.
That would be a separate topic itself. I guess this video assumes you are eating at maintenance at a reasonable healthy body fat range
You're nutrition plays a huge role in recovery
True. Especially energy balance and what current body fat you are at 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 15% trying to go lower but also trying to add mass so the progress is slow 🐌
Brigatto's study of volume only lasted 8 weeks, that's like a common bodybuilding mesocicle. If lasted more, the high volume group would have seen their performance decreased due to overtraining. Bodybuilders know that volume is the main driver fot hypertrophy, so they try to maximize it by adding sets week after week, also closer and closer to failure until they reach the overtraining, then deload and start again.
This is possible. Although I would like to see more long-term research on this 👍
This one came at such a good time. Great video as always. Thank you.
No problem 👍
Its like i was thinking at this very same thing while at the gym tonight
I didn't watch the video but the title screen has me thinking. Did you under train before you worked out? I train and exercise amazingly correct behaviors and so on for life!
Great education love the content
glad to hear it 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 just found your channel a few days ago. I've been watching Athlean X for more than 10 years, renaissance periodization, Jeff Nippard, etc. Love your channel, one of the most informative and information dense at just the right level. Thanks!
Its what i requested, thanks!
No problem 👍
Excellent video and it corroborated what I thought was the case. I have a 3/week resistance routine that at times (after gradual buildup of sets, many to failure) becomes a very challenging 90-minute effort. I absolutely get results. However, I have found that after having been ramped up to that long/intense 90-minute level for say a month, I start to dread it (i.e., the psychological fatigue you described). I can still force my way through it, but really detest doing it even if I have the free time. So, I've concluded not to maintain this level for more than a month at a time, then take a break, go back to a lower set 45-min routine and gradually work up again. If I tried to maintain the 90-minute intense routine indefinitely I'd eventually be hating life
I've experienced this too. Gains are good, but dreading going to the gym 🤣
this video came out at exactly the right time
been running the most brutal 5 day a week full body program for a month and a half and yeah, even though i saw instant results, became a lot leaner and stronger within this time frame, but i completely collapsed by the end of it and couldn't even do my job properly
gonna run an upper-lower-upper-lower-upper for a little, to deload
Good idea 👍
could u hmu with that full day split 😂
When it comes to natural’s training for strength and size “less is more” no need to train more than 3 days a week unless you’re enhanced.
@@steelphantom9105stay a whimp then
@@EpsilonCobra I guess some people who aren’t natural just can’t handle the truth.
I'm having overtraining right now. It started when I added BJJ in the days between my Madcow 5x5. Before that I was fine, for years.
Yes, adding additional training modalities can certainly increase the risk of it 👍
16 sets a week is the sweet spot for hypertrophy anything more then that is theoretically looks good but practically not sustainable..
The concept of overtraining is if u r not progressing in the gym (progressively overlaoding) in the 3-4weeks times span
If ur lifts are not going up then you are doing too much volume that means ur not recovering well...
Given the fact that ur diet ,sleep is on point that means ur overtraining according to u own body ..
Mechanical failure and Progress is what matters if ur lifts are not going up over the time then ur over training off course soreness is also an indicator that the muscle has not been yet recovered fully..
That difference of growth between 16, 24 and 32 sets / week is insane. 2x the volume for 3x - 5x results?! what the heck?
Yes, it is quite crazy. I would like to see some more similar studies to see if these findings are replicated 🤔
Another question could be: Would those lifters see a greater increase or the same increase in strength/muscle growth if they trained slightly less, or if they took more time to recover
Yes, this is a great question. I may make a future video on this topic 👍
Really good work once again. Thx
No problem 👍
Can u explain on how to combine hypertrophy training and strength training, the advantages and the weakness of combining it vs do it separately, thanks 🙏
I have made a vide on this topic already, which you can watch here th-cam.com/video/FTYmYS-rL7g/w-d-xo.html
I make may an updated video on this topic at some point 👍
Idk if Mike Mentzer is respected here, but speaking of that experiment in which bicep wouldn't grow after a high-frequency training, Mike said that throughout his trainer career he found out that both arm and leg bicep overtrain extremely easily, so maybe it really was overtraining and not some statistical error or a byproduct of a poorly structured research
It is possible 🤷
I'd would like to say sometimes you just a break for 1 day . Cuz usually is the mind the first sign of overtraining.
I can tell it by experience and cuz my sport wants 7/7 training a day to be in the nationals.
Maybe undereating could be a problem too?
I do 20 min of moderate cycling or walking after resistance training 5-6 times a week, I trained 4 times a week before and hit a plateau.
I already eat a lot but my metabolism is insane and my bodyweight barely changes.
Yes, undereating may contribute too 👍
Comparing 2-4 reps and the 8-12 is almost apples and oranges from HTMU 5/6 reps is well over 80% load.
Yes, they are different loads
Would you not consider the exercise selection somewhat flawed in the volume study? It's not really been replicated that up to 32 sets
I dont see why it the exercise selection would be flawed?
This study found similar results using up to 45 sets for quads per week
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30153194/
I'm currently planning a 4-day split focusing on chest, shoulders, triceps, back, and biceps, omitting lower body exercises. Given that my Day 2 and Day 4 workouts seem relatively short, with only three exercises each, I'm contemplating a different approach for several reasons:
1. Training Duration: On Days 2 and 4, each session, considering 2 minutes per set, totals a maximum of about 30 minutes. This seems quite brief for a day's workout.
2. Recovery Time: Since muscle recovery and building can last up to 48 hours post-exercise, I’m considering restructuring my workouts into three upper-body sessions per week, in total, potentially 50% above the Maximum Adaptive Volume. Do you think it's feasible to increase volume this way, assuming Minimum Volume and Maximum Recoverable Volume could indeed increase by 50%?
3. Increased Frequency: Based on the same 48-hour recovery principle, could there be potential benefits or drawbacks in moving to a 6-day upper-body split, allowing for more frequent stimulation of each muscle group?
Could you provide guidance on whether these adjustments might enhance the effectiveness of my training regimen, or if there are alternative strategies I should consider?
1. yes, that's short, but that's not a bad thing. It can be good to get in and out of the gym in 30 minutes and get on with the rest of your day. That being said, it does provide an opportunity to add volume if you ever want to
2. yes, I think you certainly could train upper body 3x / week with 50% more volume. You will probably see better growth from it
3. I wouldn't worry too much about frequency. Focus on the total weekly volume and split it up however you find to be most practical for you. Your body will likely adapt to whatever routine you put it through
Check out this video th-cam.com/video/qUxQxlEcHoY/w-d-xo.html
There are also cases where there are over training to an extent of dissolving muscles and intoxicated blood?
there is rhabdomyolysis
If progressive overload is the objective, isn't over training simply the opposite of that? Week over week, meso over meso, block over block?
I guess that's one way to look at it 🤔
I overtrained so much for my Ironman Triathlon, my testosterone levels dropped.
There is such things as over training, especially with brick sessions.
Get your blood work gentlemen.
yes, but it is certainly more prevalent with endurance training compared with lifting. Also, there are confounding factors which can contribute to the symptoms seen with overtraining such as low-energy availability and maintaining a very low body fat 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 yea, I was single digit in my body fat. Lipids DO make steroids/hormones within the body. I can understand that.
Could you do a video about hypertrophy programming with all of the exercises performed to failure (RPE of 10 / RIR of 0)
maybe at some point 👍
This is the best video I've come across on this subject, and much needed! I just started working out in a serious consistent manner this year as a new years resolution (still going strong!) and have seen such incredible progress I just want to keep going, increasing frequency and volume, etc. I see so many contradictory statements from different channels on here it is hard to know if what I'm doing is right. I was worried I may be going too hard from what some folks say... In a way the conclusion seems to be the most simple: Listen to your body! It'll tell you if you are good on the gas or to step on the brakes
Yes, your conclusions are pretty much how I would practically go about things. If you are experiencing negative symptoms, then it may be worth backing off. However, you are unlikely to be training to the point where muscle growth is inhibited 👍
I am over 70. How does age affect muscle growth? For example I swim 1500 yds 3x per week after 48 hrs rest between sessions. Your advice seems to not include age factors.
Havent looked into the topic of how age influences muscle growth in too much detail. I'd assume the principles of muscle growth are exactly the same, just your rate of growth might be little slower
Until I started working out (and I’ve been doing High volume like 15-20 set Per muscle since I started) I was really weak even though I’m 6’2 and broad shoulders naturally. I went from 50 kg pr on bench to 100 kg in 6 months. Is it possible that the reason I was so weak prior was because my body can take a lot of volume and therefore I had to really get into putting a lot of stress on my muscles before they started growing? Unlike other folk who dont work out and were stronger than I was before I started, maybe they need very little stress on their muscles and therefore Got stronger from just doing chores and stuff.
Its also come into play like with my upper Chest. I didn’t find out upper Chest was like below the neck until a few months ago and at that point I had already hit 225 on flat bench but when I tried incline I could take very little. Same with lower Chest I could do 225 on flat but only do like a few dips. It was almost as if only my mid Chest really grew from flat bench even though the upper and lower Chest are hit by flat bench too. Again could this be because my muscles have a high stress threshold.
yes, some people respond better to more stimulus
@@FlowHighPerformance1 Its not an indication of t-levels is it? I still grow muscle very fast, just need high stimulis and then they grow like a motherfucker. I recover very fast, I rarely get very sore unless I havent trained a muscle for a while. Its just that I need to hit every part of the muscle as if it was its own muscle because otherwise its only the ones fully activated that grow with any signifance. Like with my bench I went from 50 to 100 kg on flat bench but I couldn’t do any dips until a few months ago when I started actually doing dips. Essentially my lower Chest only grows if I hit it directly.
I do 6-12 sets per part of the muscle, and its been going great aside from how long each session is, but that’s not a big issue.
I just had a little thought i had anything to do with T-Levels. I’m tall, deep voice, overall big dude etc and my muscles grow fast as long as I am giving them high stimulis. Which is why I Think I was weak before I started working out because my body just needs high stimulis before it wants to grow. I’ve assumed its basically a good thing because it means my body is just really robust, and can take a lot of punishment. So like a lot of endurance. And it makes it easier to isolate all parts of the body.
4:46 wait how on earth were people doing 40 sets PER DAY on the 32 set plan? did I miss something?
It is 32 sets per muscle group per week, not per session 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 so did each participant train only a specific muscle group? Because, for example, in the column A(rout) for G32, there are 5 exercises listed. So that is only the total pool of exercises and not each person's full Monday plan?
I have most of the symptoms. But I've already been going to the gym less and less, so idk if I'm actually doing too much or if it's other reasons for my symptoms and I'm doing too little. Man idk anymore.
A good test is to do 1 set of each exercise for 1 week. If your symptoms don't improve, it probably isn't training related 👍
I'm 21, and have been doing this ridiculously long workout for a month now and have been having a great time with it, and a lot of muscles are getting great growth from it. I'm kind of afraid of hitting overtraining, but I'm not sore (like not more than you should) and as long as I'm well caffeinated (I wasn't today lmao) it's just fun to get through. Should I worry?
Nope. If you feel fine, you can keep going 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 In the video you show a study where 32 sets for most muscle groups is vastly superior to less. I'm doing 12 sets of lats 3 times a week, is that all good as long as I'm not getting injuries etc, but just in terms of muscle growth it's not gonna cause muscle loss or slower growth. I have 2-3 days between the different sessions so plenty of recovery
HIT is best, one set to failure. In and out if the gym in < 1/2 hr. Unless you like spending time in the gym with the boys, it’s the way to go.
I dont know if im overtraining but recently my motivation or discipline for training is a lot worse, I train everyday but its all at home and I train 12 sets of different pushup variatons every other day and when im not doing pushups im training biceps, pullups and squats. So its basically 7 days a week but even though on my all time training ive had positive results, now my wrist cramp up when im doing curls and im starting to do less pushups. My bicep strength has not decreased just the pushups, so should I rest for like 3-4 days then start again or just push through. Also im 15 and trying to be in a calorie deficit.
Unlikely that you are truly 'overtraining'. Although it may be worth doing half the number of sets you normally do for all exercises for 1-2 weeks and see how you feel 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 thanks im going to try something like that
Hi
You've said that the definition of overtraining for athletes doesn't apply for hypertrophy because we are after structural adaptation not performance outcome.
Does that mean that we should continue to train even if we are seeing a reduction in peformance from week to week and months?
I'd say you'd probably want to reduce training workload in that case. However, seeing performance declines doesn't necessarily mean that you are losing muscle. Although it may prevent you from promoting a sufficient hypertrophy stimulus 🤔
So why do you think that the concept of deloading is very common in bodybuilding and it is known that if you miss the deload week you might stop seeing gains?
I would say deloading is more common in powerlifting and other sports - and less common for bodybuilders. Just my perception, I could be wrong 🤔
@Flow High Performance Although I always hear about overtraining and the benefits of deload, I've never felt the difference of before and after deload. 🤷🏻♂️
@@Logan-he6qs I have definitely noticed a benefit during periods where my focus was on strength. Although I dont see much of a benefit for hypertrophy training 👍
Yes, I work out for hypertrophy
Tendons are always the limiting factor in my training, espeically on isolations. One time I wanted to see how many sets I could perform in a single session on a triceps pushdown before my muscles give in. I lost count but it was more than 15 sets without lowering the weight by more than 1 plate. The next day, what do you know, muscle soreness and tendon pain.
You say that it's possible to build up to that in the video. How would you do it? Every 3 weeks add 1 set to the count?
Yes, I think you can adapt to it, but it won't be able to increase volume infinitely. Yes, I think adding 1 set every few weeks is a good strategy. Then if you start experiencing joint pain, back off a little and repeat. Eventually you will find what volume you can tolerate and stay healthy 👍
Hey FHP
i love your videos.i have to ask what do you think of 'counting reps only when it hurts by Muhammad Ali?' do you think itll lead to injury or is it a good intention/philosophy to live by when working out? is there any studies for this? and what is your take on it?
I think it is good to take each set close to failure, although you want to feel the tension on the muscle - not the joints. If you strive to chase the stimulus, this can be good. If you strive to just lift more weight/reps for the sake of it, you are setting yourself up for injury and burnout 👍
What is the name of this sound ?
Not sure what the name of the background music is
If we want to assess the athletes of other sports then, will the parameters of measuring be the same or will they change accordingly, like let's talk about endurance athletes how should we look at that?
Good question. For endurance training, you would use performance as a measure of overtraining (in addition to the other symptoms). It is much more objective in other sports because we simply use performance of that event (running times, load lifted, etc.). It just becomes difficult for hypertrophy training because it is not a performance sport, it is a structural adaptation 👍
I would say overtraining definately excist. I many people say "oh just eat enough and there is no limit to how much training you can do. Problem is not overtraining, just undereating" 😵
Well I think is easy to overtrain. Go to the gym and do 2 hours with deadlifts everyday. And dont forget to run hard long intervalls on the evening everyday of course. Wonder how that person would feel after 2 weeks. Performance would suffer also.
Yes, I the whole 'undereating - not overtraining' concept doesn't make any sense to me either. Although I do wonder if someone slowly worked up to that amount of training - would they be able to manage it?
@@FlowHighPerformance1 it's an interesting question. I dont think anyone would "manage" it, because the load and intensity would be too hard for the body to handle. Basically no time for recovery. I would think most people would feel sick if trying to do this. I just think there is a limit to how much the body can handle even though you increase load slowly. However, what you do this with someone completely untrained? Lets replace running with some brutal daily intervals on a stationary bike or eliptical to avoid injury and brutal full body strength 3 hours per day but with exercises chosen to reduce injury risk. Ok, if they even managed to do this for 2 weeks without injuring themselves, would they increase their performance after those 2 insane week? Maybe actually. But I would imagine they would feel horrible at the same time. Would they then be considered overtrained? I would say yes, because with a normal program they would probably have better development in performance. There must be some heart rate test? Variability? Stress hormones? Testosterone? Blood tests? That at least combined can show overtraining? No?
Btw we had a professional cross country skier in our country that increased the hard endurance days per week from 2-3(which is the standard) to 9-12 per week. It ended very badly.
Btw it was a research team that was "behind" this training. They had found out that vo2 max sessions had a great effect on vo2 max and vo2 max was strongly correlated with performance. So why the hell haven't we already done vo2 max sessions daily? Well, I think they forgot something called recovery that the body for some reason need after a hard training session.
Mmm... after watching this, actually got me thinking about what might be the reasons for catabolism (probably using more weight that advise + poor diet, but not sure)... and exactly what is Junk volume?, since soooo many content creators reference it
Check out this video on junk volume th-cam.com/video/HaOwEn6R82k/w-d-xo.html
How the heck does one 24 sets a week for a muscle when a muscle needs at least 48 hours to recuperate? Who's going to do 12 sets per session for a single muscle(group)?
there are studies where subjects train with up to 52 sets / week for a single muscle group
@@FlowHighPerformance1 That's amazing, yet not my question. Sets times reps with respect to rest days. How do they do it?
@@angel_machariel Volume refers to total number of sets - not sets x reps (that is called volume load). You can achieve this by performing 24 sets in a single workout, 12 sets across 2x workouts / week, 8 sets across 3x workouts / week, 6 sets across 4x workouts / week etc. You don't necessarily need 48 hours to recover either. Check out this video for more detail th-cam.com/video/qUxQxlEcHoY/w-d-xo.html
Systemic fatigue is often overblown I'd agree with your latter summary tbh it's like psychological especially in RT people and the evidence is in tbe first study
Mike mentzer would hate this video. 32 sets per muscle group!?! There s no way your training hard enough if you can get 32 sets! After about 8 sets per muscle group I realize the effect of diminishing returns every set after and therefore wasting my time.
Mentzer was always searching for the least amount of work needed to stimulate growth.
It’s shown that while you can still see some growth with minimalist training, it’s just not optimal at least for naturals.
Near the end of his life he would advocate training around 1 time a week and only one body part per week, with only one set.
He spoke well and was very charismatic however he is more of a fitness charlatan.
I'll leave the conclusions up to you 👍
Turns out I knew all this anyway. Nice.
an example from real life - a friend that does calisthenics mostly said to me that he felt he cant grow anymore because, in his words, he probably reached his genetic potential after training for 10 years (he is 23, haha).. and thats funny to me because i see his workouts and they take over 1.5h to complete, lots of rest, lots of volume.. he feels the pump but cant grow, would you not call that 'overtraining'? in a way it certainly is not because there are none of the after-effects you mention in the video but there is also no growth because he does so much junk volume. is he undertraining then? again.. not in my opinion because he tires out his muscles, just in the wrong way.
another point of view i have is this - from the point of view of science 'overtraining' should be the end result but thats impossible in reality because of body recovery and adaptation.. therefore its still training, a process.. that has no end result unless an injury or your own decision halts the process. so at the core of it is recovery isnt it? its not frequency, not volume..and the most overlooked thing about recovery is it starts at the same time as you begin your workout, and, throughout the day for that matter even if you arent training because its a constant. already mentioned junk volume above but doing the opposite - do more intense work than necessary would lead to longer recovery time and it stacks up over time. if you train harder than you should and have planned 3 sessions per week for the same muscle group then over time you will experience mental fatigue and ultimately its your brain that operates your muscles, they are not autonomous.. thats what happened to me
I’d say your friend isn’t growing because he either isn’t eating enough to grow, or isn’t progressively overloading on his lifts, which is very likely due to only training with calisthenics.
studies are limited hence results are as such 2:30
Yes, not all cases of overtraining are reported in research
@@FlowHighPerformance1Well obviously not all overtraining can be reported as ''bros'' across the world are not part of a research :)
What I tried to point to was the limitations of various studies, not having adequate duration, not having an adjusted diet standard, not establishing a whole global training regiment to asses and those that are close to this level are rare.
I mean a real world scenario needs to be done for weeks months.
13:47 I, too, like to put on my PARTIPANTS from time to time
🤣
I do full body routine with one day apart. 2 sets*12 reps each exercise for each session. Weekly it gets 6 0r 8 sets, but is it good enough? I do train hard even with 2 sets of each exercises
It is likely sufficient. However, you may see a faster rate of muscle growth by performing more weekly sets 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 Thankyou for your reply. Your videos are simply the best.
Varies by individual
I think the definition of overtaining is vague because of evolution. Humans are the only animal on the planet that exercises for recreational reasons. In the wild, these stimulations are a result of responding to danger, or obtaining food source. If you made a cat run on a treadmill everyday, it would eventually die from stress because it's body is in a constant state of fight or flight. With that said, I think natural selection is in the works here. Some people can train better than others and respond to stress better than others. In the wild, these people will better fit the environment that's causes these stressors but since we're all people and living in the world, we'd just feel tired or fatigued.
Never thought of it in this way before, but it makes sense. I definitely think evolution plays a role in this concept as it does with all other human physiology too 👍
I don't think so because you have got to push pass limitations.
I did ppl upper low 5 day split but I have changed to 3 days full body because I felt tired. Feel a lot stronger now but worry case I am under training! What do you think? What split would you recommend? I am skinny lean looking to build muscle. Thanks
Stick with the 3 day program for now. Once you feel that you have the time/energy to do more, try adding an extra session per week 👍
Mike Mentzer told Us,Biceps of Arms and Biceps of Legs are OVERTRAINED EXTREMELY EASY
Mike was wrong on just about everything.
@@gregd4391 You Can ignore the reality, but you cant ignore the consequences of ignoring the reality!
Not sure of the logic behind this 🤔
@@FlowHighPerformance1 In order to be productive, exercise must be INTENSE BRIEF AND INFREQUENT
if you're not making progress, either you're violating First Second or all principles of THE ONE AND ONLY VALID SCIENTIFIC APPROACH TO BODYBUILDING
Before asking that question, you have to train first
correct
I think the culprit is simply the lack of proper recovery
Possibly 🤔
thank you for this
No problem 👍
No such thing as over training. Just under recovering👍
6:37 The 7% difference between groups in bicep growth is a statistical error, yet the 1% difference in quad and lat growth isn’t? That is a very strange interpretation of that study.
Biceps are exerted during every upper-body exercise. Name a single upper body exercise in which biceps don’t play a significant role in stability. This was certainly compounded by that particular routine followed in The study!
I have no doubt that you can train using an aggressive, high volume program, but you must realize that most studies focus on young people with less than 6 months of training background. Of course these people will have a tougher time overtraining! It is almost impossible for newbies to perform too much volume
Even the experienced power lifter case you mentioned consisted of three guys, (statistically useless,) and had no control group. I know there ain’t a lot of research on this topic, but you’re really grasping at straws.
What is my point? I don’t know. Sorry if I was kind of mean during this comment. I honestly regret writing it.
Yeah this comment fucking sucks. You’re just doing your best man. I refuse to claim that I know more than you. Even though I have some shitty ACE certification doesn’t mean I actually understand the literature. I just memorized what u had to pass the test. You have clearly put the time into comprehending the research.
that's okay, I understand your frustration. It may certainly have been due to the biceps being trained too much to recover from. Although based on the totality of all the evidence, I just don't think that most people are going to see losses in muscle thickness if they train on consecutive days. And yes, we are grasping at straws here, because there simply isn't all that much high-quality evidence for hypertrophy training. Until more research come out, this is what we are relying on - in addition to anecdotes & observations in the real world 👍
6:55
If you are watching this video , you are mot overtraining. Put the phone down and start lifting.
Most people probably aren't overtraining 👍
FUN FACT:
99% of gym bros are UNDERtraining, not overtraining
most likely 👍
Are you overtraining? Almost certainly not.
Are you lazy and looking for excuses? Are you not eating right? Are you not sleeping/recovering? One of these is far and away more likely than “overtraining.”
That word gets thrown around way too much in internet fitness land
Yes, true overtraining is extremely unlikely for lifters
As a BJJ / wrestler / Boxing student, I swear I write this comment with the energy of a vegetable lol
Yes, training for multiple sports/activities probably increases the risk of overtraining 👍
Basically different horses for different courses.
Majority of people are undereating
I would disagree
took a break from the gym for like a week cause of work i kept getting slightly bigger and stronger everyday then eventually it went back down
Sounds like you were dissipating fatigue for a few days which is what allowed a temporary improvement in performance 👍
Over training is a myth.
I wouldn't say it's a myth, but it is very unlikely for most people performing only resistance training
@@FlowHighPerformance1 I agree it is a myth for resistance training but it is not for people like long distance runners and people who are doing stuff like basket ball because you can do those things much longer with better preformince compared to resistance training.
When they say resistance training,do they mean free weights? I'm not sure @@Liam_bridgham
Psychological thing is definitely real, early on I had a massive jump in my deadlift over the previous week most likely form working on my mind-muscle connection in my legs and building up my confidence to attempt a lift well above what I had previously been topping out at. The muscle was there just needed the CNS to finally activate it effectively.