I am extremely grateful how my mom taught me about modesty. There is a balance that has to be used. Its important for us to be realistic and well as not shame.
Wow! This is so, so good! Thank you so much for this! My husband and I are the youth leaders at my church. I grew up in purity culture but he did not. There is so much I am learning about the youth and how to go about teaching them. If they ever decide to come to my husband and I about a sexual assault or something of a similar nature, I would never want them to feel like they are guilty for what someone else has done. When I was a teenager I realized that I had been molested as a child and my pastors wife and youth pastors wife never helped me the way I needed it. They just wanted to be sure I was going to heaven. Thank you so much for all of the work you do! I have SO many books to read, and I do plan on re-reading the not so good ones (Love&Respect, For Women Only, etc. 🤢🤣) to know what not to teach and to know what many are teaching and to sift the truth from lies that I always believed. All of you ladies are super!! God bless! Keep up the good work!
I would love to see you guys do a flipside book called "he deserves better"❤ talking about how the messages from church, create major difficulties, and guys and husbands!
I once played in a band, and we we're told not to wear short skirts because the audience would be able to see up our skirts. The person who told us this didn't say that the audience would look up our skirts, just that because if you're on stage and the audience is below you, they just will be able to see up your skirt. I was glad they told us that because who wants to have someone unintentionally see up your skirt because you're standing higher up than they are?
You may be interested in Judith Herman's new book, "Trauma and Repair". She discusses the social structures that lead to community responses, and it's really relevant to your own research and writing.
I really wish I had heard this 15 years ago. Also, I did not realize that paper doll and flower metaphors where a thing beyond my crazy Christian tradition.
The book The Story of John G. Paton or Thirty Years Among South Sea Cannibals records John G. Patton’s work as a missionary in the New Hebrides Islands, a violent civilisation where everyone, both men and woman, wore little or no clothing. John Paton wrote about a native man and woman on those islands who became Christians. They requested he marry them but feared they would die because a few men wanted to marry the woman: In a few seconds, Yakin entered and if Nelwang’s bearing and appearance were rather inconsistent with the feeling of worship (he was wearing a shirt, kilt and tommahawk, John G. Paton felt it inappropriate to wear an emblem of violence to church)- and what on earth was I to do when the figure and costume of Yakin began to reveal itself marching in? The first visible difference betwixt a Heathen and a Christian is that the Christian wears some clothing, the Heathen wears none. Yakin had determined to show the extent of her Christianity by the amount of clothing she could carry upon her person. Being a Chief’s widow before she became Nelwang’s bride, she had some idea of state occasions and appeared dressed in every article of European apparel, mostly portions of male attire, that she could beg or borrow from about the premises! Her bridal gown was a man’s drab-coloured great-coat, put on above her native grass skirts and sweeping down to her heels, buttoned tight. Over this she had hung on a vest and above that, again, most amazing of all, she had superinduced a pair of men's trousers, planting the body of them on her neck and shoulders and leaving her head and face looking out from between the legs - a leg from either side streaming over her bosom, arid, dangling down absurdly in front! Fastened to the one shoulder also there was a red shirt and to the other a striped shirt waving about her like wings as she sailed along. Around her head, a red shirt had been twisted like a turban, and her notions of art demanded that a sleeve thereof should have a loft over each of her ears! She seemed to be a moving monster-loaded with a mass of rags. The day was excessively hot, and the perspiration poured over her face in streams. She, too, sat as near to me as she could get on the woman’s side of the church. Nelwang looked at me and then at her smiling quietly, as if to say, “You never saw in all your white world, a bride so grandly dressed!” I little thought what I was bringing on myself when I urged them to come to church. The sight of that poor creature sweltering before me constrained me for once to make the service very short - perhaps the shortest I ever conducted in all my life! The day ended in peace. The two souls were extremely happy, and I praised God that what might have been a scene of bloodshed had closed thus, even though it were in a kind of wild grotesquerie!
It would be very interesting to find out about the origins/proof of the idea that men are wired as "lookers" and therefore can't help it; therfore women have to tailor themselves accordingly. Is this a thought that comes from the "world/satan" rather than the Word of God? In my mind this problem has always existed since the fall of man and continued to be engraved in cultural/societal norms and values until today. Could you cover a topic like that in one of your podasts please? Maybe even have stats? ❤ I believe it would be very helpful for men to hear that they are not made that way and relieve them from these age-old lies😢
I think this ties into Gen 3:16 where God foretells that man will rule over woman due to the fall. It's about blaming women (just as Adam did) and ruling over them (by telling them what they can and cannot wear) and about an obsession with power (poor me, God made me like this, but I am a man, so you must adjust to me). They are delusional.
Women who have been abused or raped in any way should always know that God really loves them no matter what and I think we need to come alongside women who have been raped because all women are priceless than they are made in the image of God. assault and being abused should not be the norm and I pray for those who are abusing that they would repent and come to know Jesus and I pray for those women who have been raped to know that God loves them no matter what.
I got into trouble because my 1 mm of my bra strap ACCIDENTLY showed. I thought if 1 mm of your bra strap can make a man behave badly, imagine how they behave when you are butt naked. If a man marries, he will be alone with his wife, at nighttime, while she is butt naked. He's not allowed to just obliterate her. He has to have self-control even when there is no one around, at nighttime when his wife is butt naked. So, I thought extreme modesty teaching is harmful.
Those men were wrong. You are allowed to be beautiful, and to celebrate that! There is something or several somethings wrong with those men and where they get their information from, and what they believe. How simple and stupid they are. They don't know how to treat you. They don't understand what is important.
Lol they are so stupid aren't they. Arrogant, self-absorbed, think they have the right to rule over women. Even funnier, there so no such teaching in the Bible, meaning, that women aren't allowed to use cosmetics, etc. This is man-made religion, not Jesus.
Hello, Thanks for this podcast. It is time that these things be talked about. One thing I wanted to mention, that I could have misunderstood. I understood the guest in this episode to allude to the concept of soul not being a Biblical concept. That is not accurate. In the old testament the world for soul is nephesh. It means soul, life, neck or throat. It is encompassing of the whole person in the Old Testament. Our way of thinking about soul does not encompass what the writes of the Old Testament mean. But it is very much a Biblical concept that us as modern day Christians do not understand. It is also a concept in the New Testament and the world is psuche - and again it is the idea of the whole person.
No, she said the concpet of soul ties is not a biblical concept: the idea that if you have sex with someone else, your soul is "tied" spiritually to that person for the rest of your life, unless there is some sort of exorcism. This was widely taught in purity culture! It's part of the Passport to Purity curriculum by FamilyLife, for instance, and was widely taught in books aimed at teen girls. It's why girls felt they had to marry their rapists; they were already "tied" to them.
@@SheilaWrayGregoire oh, well I disagree. Soul ties can be broken. We just need to teach in a much better way. This guest experienced judgment, not compassion. I'm also wondering if you can parse out the modesty message, meaning what do you mean when you address this. Because the Bible is specific about modesty related to the culture Paul was in. It seems that modesty was around women and how they present theirselves. Without the exegetical work related to what it means in the Biblical context, to make a blanket statement about modesty is just as erroneous as hitting women over the head with the responsibility to make sure the men in their lives don't lust.
I always wondered, why would God make men so out of control when they see a woman? Why didn't God make men with more self-control. Doesn't God care about girls? Why didnt' God protect girls by making men less visually aroused and better at self-control.
God did not make men like this. They act like this due to sin, more so a hard heart. It's not that they are "more sexual" or "more visual" than women, it's just that they take the right to themselves to argue that they simply "were made like this", and at the same time prohibit women to behave in the same way. In short, it's the same as a thief who argues that he simply needs and wants to have something and claims God made him like that but others are not like him, so he alone has the right to want to steal things. It's sinful and an issue of the heart and they do not take responsibility and start working on understanding to change their viewpoints.
I am extremely grateful how my mom taught me about modesty. There is a balance that has to be used. Its important for us to be realistic and well as not shame.
Wow! This is so, so good! Thank you so much for this! My husband and I are the youth leaders at my church. I grew up in purity culture but he did not. There is so much I am learning about the youth and how to go about teaching them. If they ever decide to come to my husband and I about a sexual assault or something of a similar nature, I would never want them to feel like they are guilty for what someone else has done. When I was a teenager I realized that I had been molested as a child and my pastors wife and youth pastors wife never helped me the way I needed it. They just wanted to be sure I was going to heaven.
Thank you so much for all of the work you do! I have SO many books to read, and I do plan on re-reading the not so good ones (Love&Respect, For Women Only, etc. 🤢🤣) to know what not to teach and to know what many are teaching and to sift the truth from lies that I always believed.
All of you ladies are super!! God bless! Keep up the good work!
Thank you Sheila for speaking up about such important topics like this God bless you and your ministry
Another fantastic episode! A huge thank you to all of you!❤
I would love to see you guys do a flipside book called "he deserves better"❤ talking about how the messages from church, create major difficulties, and guys and husbands!
Great idea!
Duuuuuuuuuuuuude this podcast just about had me in tears
I once played in a band, and we we're told not to wear short skirts because the audience would be able to see up our skirts. The person who told us this didn't say that the audience would look up our skirts, just that because if you're on stage and the audience is below you, they just will be able to see up your skirt. I was glad they told us that because who wants to have someone unintentionally see up your skirt because you're standing higher up than they are?
You may be interested in Judith Herman's new book, "Trauma and Repair". She discusses the social structures that lead to community responses, and it's really relevant to your own research and writing.
I really wish I had heard this 15 years ago. Also, I did not realize that paper doll and flower metaphors where a thing beyond my crazy Christian tradition.
The book The Story of John G. Paton or Thirty Years Among South Sea Cannibals records John G. Patton’s work as a missionary in the New Hebrides Islands, a violent civilisation where everyone, both men and woman, wore little or no clothing. John Paton wrote about a native man and woman on those islands who became Christians. They requested he marry them but feared they would die because a few men wanted to marry the woman:
In a few seconds, Yakin entered and if Nelwang’s bearing and appearance were rather inconsistent with the feeling of worship (he was wearing a shirt, kilt and tommahawk, John G. Paton felt it inappropriate to wear an emblem of violence to church)- and what on earth was I to do when the figure and costume of Yakin began to reveal itself marching in?
The first visible difference betwixt a Heathen and a Christian is that the Christian wears some clothing, the Heathen wears none. Yakin had determined to show the extent of her Christianity by the amount of clothing she could carry upon her person. Being a Chief’s widow before she became Nelwang’s bride, she had some idea of state occasions and appeared dressed in every article of European apparel, mostly portions of male attire, that she could beg or borrow from about the premises!
Her bridal gown was a man’s drab-coloured great-coat, put on above her native grass skirts and sweeping down to her heels, buttoned tight. Over this she had hung on a vest and above that, again, most amazing of all, she had superinduced a pair of men's trousers, planting the body of them on her neck and shoulders and leaving her head and face looking out from between the legs - a leg from either side streaming over her bosom, arid, dangling down absurdly in front! Fastened to the one shoulder also there was a red shirt and to the other a striped shirt waving about her like wings as she sailed along. Around her head, a red shirt had been twisted like a turban, and her notions of art demanded that a sleeve thereof should have a loft over each of her ears! She seemed to be a moving monster-loaded with a mass of rags.
The day was excessively hot, and the perspiration poured over her face in streams. She, too, sat as near to me as she could get on the woman’s side of the church. Nelwang looked at me and then at her smiling quietly, as if to say, “You never saw in all your white world, a bride so grandly dressed!”
I little thought what I was bringing on myself when I urged them to come to church. The sight of that poor creature sweltering before me constrained me for once to make the service very short - perhaps the shortest I ever conducted in all my life! The day ended in peace. The two souls were extremely happy, and I praised God that what might have been a scene of bloodshed had closed thus, even though it were in a kind of wild grotesquerie!
It would be very interesting to find out about the origins/proof of the idea that men are wired as "lookers" and therefore can't help it; therfore women have to tailor themselves accordingly. Is this a thought that comes from the "world/satan" rather than the Word of God?
In my mind this problem has always existed since the fall of man and continued to be engraved in cultural/societal norms and values until today.
Could you cover a topic like that in one of your podasts please? Maybe even have stats? ❤ I believe it would be very helpful for men to hear that they are not made that way and relieve them from these age-old lies😢
Interestingly, if you read Song of Solomon, you find that both men and women are both visual and verbal.
I think this ties into Gen 3:16 where God foretells that man will rule over woman due to the fall. It's about blaming women (just as Adam did) and ruling over them (by telling them what they can and cannot wear) and about an obsession with power (poor me, God made me like this, but I am a man, so you must adjust to me). They are delusional.
Speaking of “oh, you’ve had sex, now you’re ‘married to him,’ what happens if a married woman is raped? Does she now have two husbands? 🤦♀️
THAT IS SUCH A GOOD POINT! 🎉
Women who have been abused or raped in any way should always know that God really loves them no matter what and I think we need to come alongside women who have been raped because all women are priceless than they are made in the image of God. assault and being abused should not be the norm and I pray for those who are abusing that they would repent and come to know Jesus and I pray for those women who have been raped to know that God loves them no matter what.
I got into trouble because my 1 mm of my bra strap ACCIDENTLY showed. I thought if 1 mm of your bra strap can make a man behave badly, imagine how they behave when you are butt naked. If a man marries, he will be alone with his wife, at nighttime, while she is butt naked. He's not allowed to just obliterate her. He has to have self-control even when there is no one around, at nighttime when his wife is butt naked. So, I thought extreme modesty teaching is harmful.
In all the land were found no women so beautiful as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them an inheritance among their brothers - Job 42:15
I have been angrily confronted by Christian men for wearing the colour red, a hair clip and nail polish.
Those men were wrong. You are allowed to be beautiful, and to celebrate that! There is something or several somethings wrong with those men and where they get their information from, and what they believe. How simple and stupid they are. They don't know how to treat you. They don't understand what is important.
Lol they are so stupid aren't they. Arrogant, self-absorbed, think they have the right to rule over women. Even funnier, there so no such teaching in the Bible, meaning, that women aren't allowed to use cosmetics, etc. This is man-made religion, not Jesus.
Hello, Thanks for this podcast. It is time that these things be talked about. One thing I wanted to mention, that I could have misunderstood. I understood the guest in this episode to allude to the concept of soul not being a Biblical concept. That is not accurate. In the old testament the world for soul is nephesh. It means soul, life, neck or throat. It is encompassing of the whole person in the Old Testament. Our way of thinking about soul does not encompass what the writes of the Old Testament mean. But it is very much a Biblical concept that us as modern day Christians do not understand. It is also a concept in the New Testament and the world is psuche - and again it is the idea of the whole person.
No, she said the concpet of soul ties is not a biblical concept: the idea that if you have sex with someone else, your soul is "tied" spiritually to that person for the rest of your life, unless there is some sort of exorcism. This was widely taught in purity culture! It's part of the Passport to Purity curriculum by FamilyLife, for instance, and was widely taught in books aimed at teen girls. It's why girls felt they had to marry their rapists; they were already "tied" to them.
@@SheilaWrayGregoire oh, well I disagree. Soul ties can be broken. We just need to teach in a much better way. This guest experienced judgment, not compassion. I'm also wondering if you can parse out the modesty message, meaning what do you mean when you address this. Because the Bible is specific about modesty related to the culture Paul was in. It seems that modesty was around women and how they present theirselves. Without the exegetical work related to what it means in the Biblical context, to make a blanket statement about modesty is just as erroneous as hitting women over the head with the responsibility to make sure the men in their lives don't lust.
I always wondered, why would God make men so out of control when they see a woman? Why didn't God make men with more self-control. Doesn't God care about girls? Why didnt' God protect girls by making men less visually aroused and better at self-control.
God did not make men like this. They act like this due to sin, more so a hard heart. It's not that they are "more sexual" or "more visual" than women, it's just that they take the right to themselves to argue that they simply "were made like this", and at the same time prohibit women to behave in the same way. In short, it's the same as a thief who argues that he simply needs and wants to have something and claims God made him like that but others are not like him, so he alone has the right to want to steal things. It's sinful and an issue of the heart and they do not take responsibility and start working on understanding to change their viewpoints.
✅✅
I can easily out talk most women
But not that 🕸️ Tom Holland 🕷️
❤
What type of cult were you guys in?