The Five Point Faulty Foundation (Why Evangelical Marriage Advice Backfires)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2025
- In our research looking at marital and sexual satisfaction among evangelicals, we’ve found that over and over again our best-selling books, and our megachurch pastors, teach things that are shown to lead to worse outcomes. Why? What’s going on? In today’s podcast we share the faulty premise that is at the heart of evangelical marriage advice, and the four toxic teachings that flow from that false premise. But when we fix that first premise-then our advice can finally get healthy (and Jesus-centered!)
53:30 this is exactly what I've been saying! "Getting a divorce" just means your voiding the piece of paper that the government uses to validate your marriage; the REAL divorce is when your spouse refuses to uphold their end of the marriage (i.e. abusing their spouse). "Getting a divorce" is absolutely just calling the time of death on a marriage that has already ended.
Even when the mysogynists talk about how bad women are, the live to quote the statistics "80% of divorces are *FILED* by women". Duh! Because often the men is checked out of the marriage and/or refuses to change and she finally realizes and makes it official
“Getting a divorce” is just calling time of death… GIRL YES!
Love your work. I always feel like you're telling my story. At 20 years, I tried to leave my abusive marriage. I finally left at 24. (Luckily i had the support of my church and family.) I had prayed for years to not care about my treatment. Then my prayers turned for God to let me die. He didn't answer either of those. Instead i heard him say leave, that my kids needed me to continue to be their parent. I heard all of these messages and they are all so harmful. Keep up the good work.
I'm so glad you're free now!
You said they are teaching that men and women have to love each other differently but I think it actually leads to men not loving their wives at all in many marriages. If he doesn’t respect her he can’t love her. These books give men permission not to respect their wife and therefore not love either. They hold women accountable to their end but no accountability for men doing loving things for their wife. That’s been my experience.
@@jrbontje2415 Absolutely! I have always felt that love and respect are linked. Can you truly love someone you don't respect. Ok, maybe you could argue that love your enemy falls in that category, but your spouse shouldn't be your enemy?!?!
@@jrbontje2415 that's partly because they let men define what it means to "love" their wives, which often includes no input from the wife on what she needs to feel love. "Obey your husband" is a straightforward command, just do whatever he wants. "Love your wife" can mean whatever the man wants it to mean, and since his wife is considered to be overemotional and illogical and can't correct him, he gets to do whatever he wants and claim he's doing it out of love.
So “Christian marriage teachers” are saying it’s idolatry to go to anyone but God to meet our needs, and yet condemn women and and berate women and demand of women to meet their husbands needs like sex?
I think that's what's so convenient. They define women's needs as things that can be met by God (affection, connection, intimacy) but they define men's needs as things that can't be met by God (sex, housework).
Evil.
When I was newly married I read You and Me Forever by the Chans and loved it. I was especially impacted by the story about Lisa's grandmother, because it sounds correct. Yes, my job is just to love my spouse! That's the Christlike thing. After a few years of marriage I reflected on that story and my view had completely changed. Enabling isn't love. Back then how could her grandma easily and safely leave her husband? She probably couldn't. I'm glad you brought this story up because I haven't heard anyone else talk about it and it is a really damaging story with a terrible takeaway.
That's so interesting that that story stood out to you too! It stood out to Joanna as well who pulled this clip for us to use in this podcast because it worried her so much, even all these years later!
@@SheilaWrayGregoire Yeah, it's definitely burned in my brain. Something else that stands out to me about it - I would now gently push back on Lisa that it's a good witness to the world. I work in missions, and the number one thing we have consistently noticed that is a real positive witness is how my husband treats me. People (especially women, but honestly sometimes men too!) are always shocked about how kind and caring and sacrificial my husband is. They come from cultures where the woman stays no matter what, and the husband usually mistreats her, and that's the marriage. It's actually...not at all countercultural to much of the world to stay in a bad marriage and do nothing to improve it. But having a marriage where a man demonstrates dying to self? That is a huge witness to a lot of the world. How much of a witness can you really be if you're spending all your time and mental energy staying with someone abusive who has no motivation or desire to change?
Thank you for this! It was alternately triggering and validating. This time 20 years ago as we began the 20th year of our marriage my husband had an adulterous affair. I sought advice from my pastors and read every book I could find. Many of the same books and teachings that you point out were books that I read and saw the same things. This advice and teaching made my life and the lives of my children worse. It postponed my choice to leave. I stacked up all the unhelpful books and took them to a Pastor who could see what was really going on. Post divorce I can say that divorce is really awful, but it was the following of these teachings during the years of my marriage that made our marriage worse. Sadly teachers and leaders are still believing and teaching these things and making it more difficult for women in troubled marriages and those who find themselves divorced.
I'm so sorry! I'm glad you're free and safe now, but I'm sorry the church made it worse. Sorry, but not surprised. I get message upon message like this everyday. It's awful. The church needs to wake up, because right now in too many ways it's hindering the work of Christ!
Truth. None of these books give tools for how to make the marriage better, only how to sweep problems under the rug until the hump in the rug gets so big you inevitably trip and fall.
Y’all are doing the Lord’s work.
What an incredible podcast! You just put in words my feelings. And by the way, I'm so sorry for Lisa. Her expressions showed they she don't even believe her advice. 😕
Thank you, Keith! (You too, Sheila for platforming your husband. I love, love, love when the two of you speak individually and yet with one voice. I think that was the God's intention for marriage).
Keith: "I don't think we should be dividing up Christian virtue into men and women. The Bible doesn't say men have these fruits of the Spirit and women have these fruits of the Spirit."
Exactly. No one can show me where courage is meant for men only. Miriam. Ruth. Esther. Hulduh. Duh.
Okay, I just have to comment on Voddie Baucham saying marriage wasn't meant to fulfill you and that your fulfillment is found only in God. This is the dude who said that middle aged men long for attention from younger women, but instead of having affairs with those younger women they should - what? Turn to God for fulfillment? No! Look to their daughters for admiration and attention! He's either a sicko or he just opens his mouth and lets vaguely churchy sounds fall out without thinking about what he's actually saying.
Yep. I remember that quotation (I did a fixed it for you of it!). It was disgusting.
Frequent and honored speaker at homeschool conventions. He is a very charismatic speaker. But my gut twisted into knots listening to him until I couldn't listen anymore.
I went to a southern baptist university in the early 2000’s and Voddie Baucham was a common speaker at our chapels. The man was idolized for what he taught and I got some red flags from him. The main theme was that for Christian women, it was our job and duty to get married and have babies.
They are supporting and preaching enablement of sin. This is not what God calls us to, we are called to speak Truth with love and hold people accountable and call them to repentance.
Ultimately, this is misogyny …women should not have a voice and don’t have value as created in the image of God per these teachers. Christ and the Apostles would have a lot to say about this false teaching.
37:29 so woman are told theymust obey, submit to husbands and that is ok because in return husband love them as Jesus love bride. And they must trust husband wants what is best for wife. But when the they want husband to love the way Jesus loves somehow it is too much to expect from males. Does it mean that expecting wife to obey and submit is too much?
The “he needs a physically attractive wife” message really annoys me because it’s so the opposite to Christ. What if she is in an accident that burns her face, she shouldn’t expect her husband to love her anymore?
Or a women born with a deformity of some kind, shouldn’t expect to meet a partner in her life.
It’s so childish of these men.
It is! And it shows they have no idea about intimacy at all.
Sorry - Grandma is enjoying heaven because she put up with an alcoholic husband and his behaviour? So if grandma didn't do that are this couple suggesting she wouldn't be in heaven? Or just getting a poor cottage rather than a mansion in heaven?
Woman at the well with many past husbands - we are told nothing more than that. We can infer that going to the well midday rather then when the other villagers gathered there meant avoiding the other women, or feeling judged by them. That is all the text can tell us.
We can wonder about why - but need to admit we are just wondering. Maybe she was divorced because she was infertile? (one of the reasons men could sent away a wife in divorce); maybe some husbands died? a lot of illnesses in the past that didn't have antibiotics etc; or work accidents.... Maybe she did have expectations of the men - but the man can divorce her for not pleasing him.... And maybe after a divorce her future options were more limited than if she were a young virgin; after several divorces what were her options if limited ability to live and work outside of being in a marriage? But all this is wondering - a useful pattern of reflection on the Bible, but can't be claimed as 'the Bible says'
A few years ago, I heard my preacher say in a sermon: "if you don't submit to your husband? You are directly inviting satan into your house."
Steve gaines. He loves God, and Im staying at the church. But this is an issue that causes disagreements frequently. Because we do have a faction of egalitarians, but we're willing to keep the peace. With the gospel the priority. But this area definitely is an opening for satan to work. Local lawyers are also aware of an effect of "Bellevue dads" who are very abusive. I'm praying for God to be moving to close this gap in the wall.
I'm sure there are a lot of "Bellevue dads"! I hope the church wakes up, because it isn't okay to hurt women like this.
This is so good and liberating. Thank you!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
One way I've heard this (getting all needs met by God) nuanced in a helpful way is to say:
"God is our source and people can be our resource."
He provided us for community, right? And Paul is constantly instructing on how to "one another" well... why do that if we should all expect suffering and it is almost sinful to expect or desire more?
I love that!
Aside from the harm it does to the spouse and children, how exactly is letting a bad spouse get away with bad behavior helping them? Let's say Mrs. Chan's grandfather wasn't an abusive drunk. How did her grandmother putting up with his alcoholism help him? Being like Jesus does not mean we put up with people's bad behavior and suffer. Jesus lovingly let people know when what they were doing was wrong and hurtful.
So often, in these books, they conflate forgiveness with trust. We are commanded to forgive, but we are never commanded (nor advised) to trust a man/human. We are to forgive as the Father forgives, and people pair that with the "as far as the east is from the west" verse- suggesting that God gets amnesia when He forgives. But in the narrative accounts in the Bible, we see He never gets amnesia and people often experience consequences or discipline. He forgave Davud but his son still doed. If he withheld consequences it was not because he forgot, it was an intentional choice. I think him "forgetting" our sins is more tied to salvation and final judgement.
That's all to say, God never commands us to forget sin and trust someone. We may find a way to forgive someone who assaulted our child (sorry, using an extreme example), but none of us would trust them to babysit our child again. We are to be gentle as a dove, wise as serpent- why be told to be wise is we cannot apply that wisdom somehow?
So God made men and women with completely separate needs which they are somehow supposed to fulfill in each other even though they actually don’t feel what their supposed to give to the other so they can be fulfilled?…. Got it. 😂
Sometimes I think why does God allow a couple to divorce if one partner is cheating, without addressing issues of abusive relationships and divorce?
54:00 - Shocking! Francis and Lisa Chan suggesting that her grandma wouldn't have gotten rewards in heaven if she had left and divorced her abusive alcoholic husband. That's just evil, Francis. Shame on you.
It is truly horrific! I don't think people know this about their marriage teaching.
@@SheilaWrayGregoire And what makes it worse is how HAPPY they are 54:15 about the horrific suffering and how this automatically gave her extra brownie points with God.
Ok, there are several logical flaws in the God alone fulfills you argument. First of all, God, in the person of Jesus, IS human, he is sinless. You are married to a sinful human, but that doesn’t mean you’re meant to accept the sin, you are meant to grow together in holiness, it’s not holy to ignore and accept the sin. Also, God created us as social creatures, so the idea that God was wrong in creating us with a social nature and that we don’t need others, and only need God is rejecting God’s creation and God’s will.
Ok somebody please check on Lisa Chan because if she believes all that crap, is she safe? 🤷🏼♀️
I think that about so many of the wives of big name marriage pastors and authors. I do worry.
@ I worry about some local pastors wives as well.
Concerning husbands having authority over their wives, the argument that keeps being presented to me is the relationship between the church & Messiah. That's the shadow picture, & we're supposed to be the shadow picture. Does the church submit to Messiah, or does the church tell Messiah what to do? Do Messiah & the church talk through decisions?
Now I have my answers, but I would love to read orhers answers to this argument.
The thing is that that assumes that the point of the analogy of Christ to the church is authority and decision-making. But Christ has tons of attributes that husbands don't. Christ saves us. Are we saying that means husbands save us? Christ is our creator. Does that mean husbands are our creator? Just because Christ does something does not mean that the relationship between husbands and wives is the same in every area. The point of the analogy, in context, is not about authority but UNITY. That's what's missing.
@SheilaWrayGregoire thank you! I do absolutely see that in Scripture.
@@SheilaWrayGregoire such a great way to put it. I love how this reading of Ephesians 5 as primarily being about unity expands and deepens our view of this passage instead of narrowing it to simply mean authority, and nothing else. I feel like it helps me see and understand Ephesians in a way I never used to be able to see it before. So good, thank you :)
@@alyssa_trulytree You're so welcome!
Another thing to consider when thinking about Messiah as our Husband is, in Revelation 20:4-6, is said that His Bride will rule WITH Him. That seems to directly contradict the theology of complementarianism.
I agree with your premise about bad advice in Christian marriage books. However, all of your examples are strawmen, uncharitable reading of them, or will ignorance to push your agenda.
For instance, male headship isn't about male and female differences. It's an effect of the fall. Also, men and women are different. The differences are on a spectrum and not necessarily polar opposites. You are performing a very crafty sleight of hand.
The reason she presents it this way is because that's how the books present it. Yes, men and women are different. But these books make it sound like they're a completely different species. And in the opinions of these authors of these books, they assume that it's a man's "calling" to lead a woman because men and women are different, rather than the accurate view that's a symptom of the fall.
I find it ineffective marriage advice to teach "differences" of men and women when it comes to our inner being. Marriage consists of two people who will share similarities and also have differences depending on the couple. Your spouse is not a representative of one's gender. Success often comes down to good communication, getting to know each other and asking instead of assuming. This gender based advice tries to offer a shortcut that doesn't exist. However, educating yourself on the common shared experiences of other groups is helpful but the bible isn't a reliable source for that.
Hello! So, they actually made a video about whether or not they were strawmanning complementarianism. They've actually made several vidoes on complementarianism vs egalitarianism and what the Bible says which go in depth. However the one about whether they are making a strawman of complementarianism is a good place to start.
Would you be interested in checking it out? I'll link it just in case
th-cam.com/video/IhtWcF3e0Q4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_52qzTNmZ_U00YTx the strawman complementarianism video