It would be Awesome to see this same style of testing on the 400 sbc engine!! I bet it would surprise people as well as showing how much of an advantage of having more cubes as your always proving Richard!! Thanks for all you do for US the viewers!!!
This is kind of a cool test, I thought the smaller engine with more boost might have more spunk. I'm an engineer, and the concept makes sense. More air=more power.
A more telling measurement would be post-blower intake temps. I bet the 383 would be a little over half the temp of the 350. Efficiency is the name of the game!
Now that test was full of useful information. Mild blown 350 vs zooted up 383. That 177 OLD School Roots ain't the modern centrifugal, but it got with the program. The mild 350 could nibble on what the 177 was dishing out. The 383 could gobble it up no problem. I have been considering building both combos, now I know I am on the right track. NO computers, no special blow thru carbs, no EFI, dirt simple.
@@xmo552 mY 99 vortec 350 is finally ready for assembly, the day after the Super Bowl, I tried to order a weiand 177 blower.....THE WHOLE LINE OF BLOWERS ARE DISCONTINUED. I decided to jump over to the Edelbrock blower, it goes from available to unavailable every other day. Nobody makes an Eaton style for GEN1, only LS. This calls for a rethink of what to do next. Dam it!
@@mikef-gi2dg Weiand killed off the blowers mid 2023 I think. I was in the same situation last year. A 142 came up for sale 100% complete on my local Craigslist for 3k, but I didn't get it. This was like a week or two ago. The ad said if it didn't sell locally it was going up on eBay. I just checked, it's not there either at the moment. You may just have to get a used piece. B&M.. I didn't think about.
@@xmo552 I have been looking at The Blower Shop 192 blower. It is the main reason ( besides life just getting in the way) I have delayed pulling the trigger. It is plenty beefy, excellent robust drive system, and it's current. It's rated at 10 lbs max, which is perfect, I don't need more. The price is about the same. Been dying to do a roots blower and it's smaller than a BDS 6-71, my next choice.
So you put in all that time and travel all that distance for free ? Does someone have a gun to your head ? Why would you do that it doesn't make any sense.. there must be some incentive program in the midst of all the this .. what Is the method to your madness?? Are you just on the verge of the channel taking off and then you'll make money but at the moment it's only supporting itself ? I was wondering why you were getting so skinny ! Lol
Best engine tech channel on TH-cam. Not theory. Hands on real life results. I remember his 5.0 Notch in Hot Rod magazine when I was a college Freshman.
I actually learned something new today. on yellow bullet racing forum I was reading about all these guys having problems with builds just like the 383 in the video with supercharger not helping high compression build. Even with ten psi wheel and they were realy having problems on race track the 10 psi wheel was melting the tefon blades getting to hot . Never heard that one before And have to give the Wiend blowers credit for that they dont have tefon blades Though actually replacable their expensive As far as timing being maximized with air fuel racio you question about my 12 degrees its a great place for longevity with spring weights coming in on top of that then vac is pretty good If we were going for a world record Id tell you without sacrifice of maybe a 1 shot wonder Id say go for it and if it blows wel start from scratch. But Id rather sacrifice a engine Than my prize Huffer three engines and 200 thousand miles on 4000 dollar supercharger and not a hicup from it yet
WE CALL THAT SPECULATION-IT'S EVEN SPELLED DIFFERENTLY THAN DATA! IF YOU WANT TO SEE HOW TURBOS AND BLOWERS COMPARE AT THE SAME BOOST AND AF AND TMING ON THE SAME MOTOR-SEE THE MOD FORD VIDEO
@@richardholdener1727 it is 100% speculation, but it is calculated speculation. If you "follow the formula", you will double the power at 14.7psi. Here's my math. 550 hp on the 383. Add 6psi and you see 644hp. 6psi of boost is .408 bar. Multiply 550 x 1.408 (follow the formula) and you get 774hp. That's theorietical on the same engine that would make 550hp NA at 6psi. The engine actually made 644hp at 6psi. . 774 speculated hp - 644 measured hp = 130hp less than "the formula". It's either heat or belt drag or untuned runner length that killed the potential power. It's not always the same amount, but I feel that I'm not too far off here. I am analyzing the data that I see and trying to form a conclusion. I.e. speculating. I did the same math for the smaller 350. I'm not trying to discount your actual testing.. I'm just a math guy and don't have access to a dyno or parts like this. .. so speculation is my primary option. I look at patterns of actual data and try to find patterns. You are the source of my data in this case. I know the supercharger intake has short runners that are not tuned the same as the dual plane (or single plane).
The problem is a blower eats hp to make hp. Compressing air takes power to do so if making 14.7 psi doubles your power but takes 100hp to do (just using these numbers for example idk what the true number is) then you will be 100 hp lower than the math. It's closer on a turbo setup bc of less parasitic losses.
More displacement + longer valve duration + better heads = less time to build boost. The 383 is too efficient relative to the 350 to maintain the same psi. Hotrodding is the funnest science.
good tests. I feel that you're everyday backyard builder would build something similar to these so this is a good reference point. that being said the 383 is still way more motor than the 350, the supporting mods used in the 383 like heads cam and bigger carb definitely show on the dyno graphs. the 350 seemed to have better results with the blower than the 383 did even though it made less than the 383. almost as if the 383 could have seen more of a gain with maybe a bigger or different blower. looking at the hp/trq cross they both seem to have the same cross points at the same rpms but different levels.
Please explain what boost pressure is. Explain why valve and intake size increases restriction and increase boost pressure Please. Why flow is more important than boost. Carl banks explained this on diesel applications. Gassers may find this interesting.
Gail Banks? If you make the na motor more efficient (by almost any means), the motor will make more power at any given boost level (starts with more power and ends with more power)
When do you start worrying about crank deflection from the blower? I would like one blown motor in my life but thought they needed much more work and maintenance ..I have experience from .4hp - 4000hp. The only blower motors I know are Donovan's running 90-100% nitro..in a more docile set up maybe not as many issues? Ring selection? Not for gas mileage I'm sure.
If you want to do a Killer test on this platform, I'd love to see same camshaft lift and duration numbers BUT 1 cut on a 99 to 102 lsa. The others on people's thought of the 'must be' 114 to 118 lsa. I call bs. My time on a dyno for my applications I'd never run anything wider than 106. It's be SO awsome if you could work this test in some day. Expec on these small blocks and small blowers where it's going to be a street strip combo fir sure any way. Cylinder pressure makes torque, add boost wonderful things happen. E85 of course, prob will want 3 to 4 ° less timing
Yep would be interesting to see. Though going down to 102 allways seemed a bit desperate, trying to get power from a small lobe. Out at 106 seemed a good compromise, though not if you have a single seater with the right gear ratios
And after thinking about it for months it finally clicked. THE 355 HAD VALVE FLOAT AT 6000 RPM . anti pump up crain lifters and procomp 400 pound blower valve springs would wake it right up. And on the wild engine its only getting half the boost or so . You say the na cam works good but the boost is being lost through the overlap between the intake and exaust valves during the cycle. not so much the 2 pumps fighting each other like I guessed the first time. its simply blowing the boost right out the exaust during overlap . and thats why your boost levels drop to almost nill. Its a big cam making it show way more than on stock cam. I like to see the big blower cam results compared to the Na cam...
I like the test but would be curious to see results with bigger blowers 671-871 on e 85. I am planning my next build and have a zz3 crate motor that I already upgraded to flat tops. I am thinking of afr 220s and a blow thru turbo or a roots or twin screw carb e85 set up. I have sprayed about 250hp on the zz3 with the flat tops and it runs great but want more power and tired of nos
oh yah and as per b&m we built our blowers bigger than what they needed and under drived them to keep a cooler charge meaning more horsepower and tork than competiters and capabuility to exeed our ratings especially at high rpm. and that is why superchargers are not allowed in built engine racing because its not a even playing feild End of blower 101 THATS WHY GOD GAVE US THE NHRA LOL
Is it commonplace to only make ~10HP/psi with these 177 Weiands? I realize the 350 was a basic truck type motor, but that seems like more what I’ve seen from the smaller 142’s. Actually, with a 6” lower and 3.05 upper I’ve seen a 142 kit make more power per psi so I just thought the 177 would be more efficient.
@@TheBdubya24 A 174 on a BB I imagine would be struggling from damn near idle lol. Well maybe not with some peanut ports or something but with any type of good head and a decent cam on a BBC I don’t even know why you would use anything that size personally. Maybe a bone stock head/mild can/stock displacement street setup would be about the only situation I would run a blower of that air volume on a BB. The 174s are well sized for like mild 302/305 type of combinations honestly, that’s more what it’s able to supply decent airflow to support.
Hey awesome video. I have some questions for you for a blown 355 sbc. i am using the low low rpm approach and want to make immense torque at low rpm without revving past 4500 rpm. Its for a 2nd gen camaro with tall gears. XR252HR or smaller cam. i want to spin the blower fast and up to 4500 or lower engine rpm and 4800 max. with a big blower and maybe significant boost and drive in a low rpm band with really tighter than stock antiballoon plate lock up torque converter.. i want big boost off idle with a bleed valve. target idle is 400 rpm. 6.125" H beams with 1.165" MAHLE blower piston 0.045" headgasket. Any CC chamber piston and head. Looking at trickflow super 23 175cc? Or jegs #5140000 heads 180cc? The tires are big radials on 15x12 wheels. A close ratio TH350 or 400. Cruiser not a race car. maybe a dart block with large bore same stroke or less.
Thanks for this vid! What im gathering from this and the 5.0 vid is a good flowing engine will make more HP with less boost! i want to put one one my 10:1CR, 355 SBC soooooo bad and with my current set up of Edelbrock E210 heads and Thumper cam and all the mods that go with it i should be able to run the smaller pullies and only make up to 3psi and not destroy my hypereutectic pistons! LOL maybe......
@@jasonhaley5737 yes but you can't fill up with that at the station though. A lot of Midwest guys can get E85 no problem I guess if you're racing it won't matter
Sorry sorry sorry sorry LOL I dont think its all volumetric efficency . Because the belt system on the single carb superchargers the belt is designed to slip as pop off valve under detonation to rescue the supercharger it will let the blower turn backwards. And your running enough unchecked tork to spin tires inside of rims. I think your crossing that line. By unchecked I mean no drive train drag on it. I think thats 60-80 horsepower and tork that is not going to show on lower torkband. probably 60 on 350 and 80 on 383 the tork is just not going to hit that belt so hard with drive train behind it. And I keep seeing in my head a race car spec decked block with piston coming all the way to top of block and a small cc chamber head on that super mouse saying 13 to 1 another variable? Under another thought the supercharger and turbo under the load of vehicle. and your boost graph starts at 4000 rpm their going to pack the cylinders better. Your turbo dynos are going to be weird too. Because your not controlling the spool valve are you? Even though it doesent have a belt to slip. I Hope this is a more well thought out Explanation
@@richardholdener1727 Along with my little triangle pop off valve with 2 little thin springs I took off lol Afraid I was loosing boost and cranked down lol I should probably replace The belt tensioner springs on B&M and WIEND Id think are designed just heavy enough to hold
@@richardholdener1727 I actually ran big industrial superchargers on pto trucks that unloads tanker trailors full of cement and other materials like dietamacous earth to filter wine I blow it up pipes into cylos they only put out 15 psi got stainless steel rotors You can shoot them down the street and make them think their in a hurricane like a jet engine ; we could drive line it into crank pipe it into carb of 383 see if we could make 50,000 horse power.lol we could show those mad max ausie how to build a Rat Rod with the smallblock from hell Ive got my owners manuel catalog service manuel and directions for the 144 B&M catalog covers all B&M superchargers with dyno graphs and such I could shoot them to you over phone if you want
Conclusion: Don't put a blower on a weak combination unless you just want that blower look and sound, and don't mess with these baby blowers on decent combinations, they will only disappoint compared to a more appropriate sized blower. Not mentioned was the air temps, especially with the faster drive ratio. Comparing an old blower design like the 144 with Edelbrock's latest SBC kit, they both need more drive ratio to make decent boost, and while the 144 gets hot pretty quickly, the Edelbrock would be barely above ambient temperature, even after a few pulls.
Why not an 8-71 on a low rpm 350 sbc. 400-450 rpm idle, XR252HR or smaller roller cam. Tighter than stock blower converter maybe even a low rpm lock up. High boost at low rpm. Blower spins up fast on the cog. Forged crank, Hbeams and MAHlE custom pistons. Shall it work?
@@TheBdubya24 I have that firebird 305 tpi in a 54 cadillac and it will annihilate the tires and its hard to keep the u joints together. Also have an 86 corvette 355 tpi I'm about to switch from single gt45 to a compound gt45 set up in an 85 suburban we'll see how that goes.
Can I use the 2nd cam on a "daily drive" blown 383...? Is 8.8:1 ratio enough with this cam? What part number? Which stall and rear ratio should we use?
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you Richard. My current cam is NX276hr nitrous cam. I want to go bigger cam for daily drive. I am between NX288HR and XR294HR-10. Can I use 294 cam in daily drive.. or shuld I get .637 .621 230, 250 custom cam.. I am lost...
I WAS LOOKING AT PUTTING A 671 OR 871 ON MY 350 LT1, BUT THIS BUILT 383 WITH THE LITTLE BLOWER WOULD LOOK ALOT BETTER IN MY FIREBIRD. 650 HP IS A LITTLE LOW, BUT I'D ADD A 125 SHOT NOS
@@KingJT80this dude is just looking for attention this is the reason dudes kill themselves in cars is cause they think they can handle more than what they really can
yeah you have to spin it faster with the 7 inch pulley and to 7K RPM otherwise yeah why bother? but if you spin that 177, no NA small block unless its a big 434 is gonna make 650. thats 496 big block territory
@@DiedrichKnickerbocker1783 maybe 50 more HP IF you did spin but i know a 144 is kinda small for a 383. i watch a guys YT channel and he has a 144 on a 355 small block. runs good and probably makes 400 to the wheels in his gbody cutlass. but a 383 is gonna want more air in that combo like this one
If there would be a guy to rip my blueprint 350 out and give it to ……. You are the guy lol. That being said It would be amazing for you to build mine 😭😭😂
@richardholdener1727 I'm sure you are well aware of this. You even mentioned it in the video. Certainly don't want any valve overlap in boosted applications. You know way more than I do. I'm just an amateur hot rodder (old school).
Watched it again 650 carb was garbage 750 would be smallest 850 would be way better 650 was choking engine period thats like 305 carb i got a 750 and its a little big but on 305 it uses it once it gets to 4000 rpm id of tryed the 950 on it and worked backwards going to 850 and used Edelbrock for the bigger pump Ive never seen less than 750 on blower ever
The school of hard knocks that youve started you didnt tell every body to do certain things to be able to run that race gas . 1 They put it in their car and the car never runs again and they cant figure out what to fix and keep throwing money at it and their funds are limited. 2 4/5s of your fan base Are dirty White boys ,Thats including other races Should say backyard wrenches, on a limited budget. Thats going to run 92 pump gas . And its a whole different Ball game. And having a new built 10 thousand dollar engine and all they have to show for it is a bunch of hammered pistons and shortened rods. But have spent their life savings building that engine. 3 Unless they run a 6000 rpm stall converter theyl never see that extra couple hundred horse power you just showed us here . in fact with the race gas they lost 2 10s in the Quarter mile after adding the blower and cant figure out why . Im a fan not a troll. Do this video again on 92 pump gas and get us through the hard knocks. Thats what your good at s just letting you know about our needs thank you for the videos
GREED YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE WHAT THE TITLE SAYS BLOWN 350 VS WILD 383 STROKER . NOT BLOWN WILD 383 . YOUR PEEING ALL OVER YOUR LEG AND HAVENT GOT A CLUE LOL THE REASON BEING IS THE FORCE OF THE WIND HITTING YOU IN THE FACE. IS GREATER THAN FORCE OF YOUR PEE SHOOTING OUT BLOWER AND TURBO 101 YOU THINK 12 + 12 =24 wrong what happens when you blow up 2 balloons and put the spouts together? The answer is nothing. You had me going lol big stars in my eyes ok Bling I had to go back to my roots to see what was going on HA HA HA That 383 is 12 to one your blower is 12 to 1 on dyno 400 crank is 100 horse so were taking it out of picture because reaching higher in cylinder might even push 13 and a half to one a little turbo at 25 psi would have been better raising it to 15 to one but the 1600 degree exaust tells me a a realy big detonation is coming on the hot air making fuel develope fumes making explosion too great for heads to handle. purpose built is every thing your 383 had forced induction already going on without blower the reason you got a extra hundred horse at end of your pull was at 7000 rpm 9si finaly exeded your 12 to one compression making like 14 to 15 to one. so lets go your little 350 blown against your built 350 wild card taken out of picture stock 350 supercharged will beat built 350 because even though even at 12 and a half to one off throttle the blower at 5 psi makes 7-8 to one at 5 psi as it goes through rpm it exede s 13-1 compression and keeps going. even though your built 350 might run more horse power the blown 350 exedes on tork maybe not on dyno yet double the back pressure on your dyno and watch what that beautifull little blower does lol under load it starts packing the cylinders twice as much upping horse power and tork at 15- to 16 to one compression your underdog just ripped apart your built 350 Go ahead prove me wrong As per B&M that little blower forced induction does every thing cam and heads do and as per B&M up to 6000 rpm than a cam can start helping and you have to go springs and rollers to fight valve float And as per me I prefer goodwrench 190 horse box engine for its hollowed epoxy filled valves that have never failed in 20 years and comp 400 pound valve spring crain anti pump up lifters better pistons and bearings not to exeed 9 and a half to 1 eldor brock 750 for its low end tork and your always better having cooler 5-7 charge the higher rpm barrier crossed will up that boost level all on its own lighter valve train means higher rpm as per you richard lol oh yah and as per b&m we built our blowers bigger than what they needed and under drived them to keep a cooler charge meaning more horsepower and tork than competiters and capabuility to exeed our ratings especially at high rpm. and that is why superchargers are not allowed in built engine racing because its not a even playing feild End of blower 101 THATS WHY GOD GAVE US THE NHRA LOL feel free to switch supercharger with turbo any where in supercharger turbo 101 the same basics apply and i forgot for stainless valve needing 9/16 rocker studs And rich even though my 144 is rated 144cfm its the same size as your 177 blower
@@richardholdener1727 You pegged that one It kind of angers me that the roots superchargers doesnt get the respect that they dont get the respect that they should get because the dyno brake isnt enough to show their real horsepower and tork the only reason the turbo does half fast is it makes its own back pressure. bad builds on top of it making them look bad its like calling nitro alcahol
That blower looks gay azphuk. Skinny belt on a 12 inch snout. How about a hot rod blower? 6-71 or 8-71? That would go on a car that you didn't want anyone to see it because of the embarrassment. 😵😬😁
@@richardholdener1727 my thing is they aren't the same base platform. There are so many variables created with the use of trick components , it's like comparing apples to elephants.
Blessed is he with a stroker crank. And boost!
I have a 383 crate engine .... gotta get it installed
Blessed be the Boost!
It would be Awesome to see this same style of testing on the 400 sbc engine!! I bet it would surprise people as well as showing how much of an advantage of having more cubes as your always proving Richard!! Thanks for all you do for US the viewers!!!
more na equals more boosted
This is kind of a cool test, I thought the smaller engine with more boost might have more spunk. I'm an engineer, and the concept makes sense. More air=more power.
I'd love to see these combination results on a 377 sbc but a 350 block with the 3.750 crank not the 400 block with a 350 crank
@@richardholdener1727 Richard does a SBC require a BBC Snout on the SBC Crank if running a Supercharger?
All the hopping coke cans and grabbing 100 bills off the dash you can handle in this episode. Love it Richard!
forgot the 3/4 race cam too lol
@@dirtyfabrication401 my idiot neighbor tells people that's what kind of cam he has
So in a blower application the manifold pressure curve is essentially an inverted volumetric efficiency curve. I have to sit down for a while...
BINGO! UNLESS THE FLOW CURVE IS NOT LINEAR....BOMB!
A more telling measurement would be post-blower intake temps. I bet the 383 would be a little over half the temp of the 350. Efficiency is the name of the game!
lower boost equals lower IATs
@@richardholdener1727 yep & being able to run a more aggressive timing curve as a result = more powah! 💪 Love these experiments
@@acemobile9806 Thats why these types of blowers like E85 make even more power with even less heat
a simple alky injection kit would drop those intake temps in half and could run full timing.
Now that test was full of useful information. Mild blown 350 vs zooted up 383. That 177 OLD School Roots ain't the modern centrifugal, but it got with the program. The mild 350 could nibble on what the 177 was dishing out. The 383 could gobble it up no problem. I have been considering building both combos, now I know I am on the right track. NO computers, no special blow thru carbs, no EFI, dirt simple.
id still use a 1X4 blower carb. it would be a blower carb. not a blow through they do make and jet them differently
Mike, did you ever build it?
@@xmo552 mY 99 vortec 350 is finally ready for assembly, the day after the Super Bowl, I tried to order a weiand 177 blower.....THE WHOLE LINE OF BLOWERS ARE DISCONTINUED. I decided to jump over to the Edelbrock blower, it goes from available to unavailable every other day.
Nobody makes an Eaton style for GEN1, only LS. This calls for a rethink of what to do next. Dam it!
@@mikef-gi2dg
Weiand killed off the blowers mid 2023 I think. I was in the same situation last year. A 142 came up for sale 100% complete on my local Craigslist for 3k, but I didn't get it.
This was like a week or two ago. The ad said if it didn't sell locally it was going up on eBay. I just checked, it's not there either at the moment. You may just have to get a used piece.
B&M.. I didn't think about.
@@xmo552 I have been looking at The Blower Shop 192 blower. It is the main reason ( besides life just getting in the way) I have delayed pulling the trigger. It is plenty beefy, excellent robust drive system, and it's current. It's rated at 10 lbs max, which is perfect, I don't need more. The price is about the same. Been dying to do a roots blower and it's smaller than a BDS 6-71, my next choice.
I've said it before and I'll say it again you've got the most AWSOME job on the planet lol need an apprentice
.
I really do, who wouldn't want long hours, 1000-mile road trips and no pay!
So you put in all that time and travel all that distance for free ? Does someone have a gun to your head ? Why would you do that it doesn't make any sense.. there must be some incentive program in the midst of all the this .. what Is the method to your madness?? Are you just on the verge of the channel taking off and then you'll make money but at the moment it's only supporting itself ? I was wondering why you were getting so skinny ! Lol
Best engine tech channel on TH-cam.
Not theory.
Hands on real life results.
I remember his 5.0 Notch in Hot Rod magazine when I was a college Freshman.
Me too the silver state one
I actually learned something new today.
on yellow bullet racing forum I was reading about all these guys having problems
with builds just like the 383 in the video with supercharger not helping high compression build.
Even with ten psi wheel and they were realy having problems on race track
the 10 psi wheel was melting the tefon blades getting to hot .
Never heard that one before
And have to give the Wiend blowers credit for that they dont have tefon blades
Though actually replacable their expensive
As far as timing being maximized with air fuel racio
you question about my 12 degrees its a great place for longevity
with spring weights coming in on top of that then vac is pretty good
If we were going for a world record Id tell you without sacrifice of maybe a 1 shot wonder
Id say go for it and if it blows wel start from scratch.
But Id rather sacrifice a engine Than my prize Huffer three engines and 200 thousand miles on 4000
dollar supercharger and not a hicup from it yet
I’d be really curious to see a stroked 5.3 vs a normal 6.0
So basically that little 177 blower with the 7" crank pulley was killing about 130hp on the 383 and 112hp on the 350 vs a turbo at the same boost.
WE CALL THAT SPECULATION-IT'S EVEN SPELLED DIFFERENTLY THAN DATA! IF YOU WANT TO SEE HOW TURBOS AND BLOWERS COMPARE AT THE SAME BOOST AND AF AND TMING ON THE SAME MOTOR-SEE THE MOD FORD VIDEO
@@richardholdener1727 it is 100% speculation, but it is calculated speculation.
If you "follow the formula", you will double the power at 14.7psi.
Here's my math. 550 hp on the 383. Add 6psi and you see 644hp. 6psi of boost is .408 bar. Multiply 550 x 1.408 (follow the formula) and you get 774hp. That's theorietical on the same engine that would make 550hp NA at 6psi. The engine actually made 644hp at 6psi. . 774 speculated hp - 644 measured hp = 130hp less than "the formula". It's either heat or belt drag or untuned runner length that killed the potential power. It's not always the same amount, but I feel that I'm not too far off here. I am analyzing the data that I see and trying to form a conclusion. I.e. speculating.
I did the same math for the smaller 350. I'm not trying to discount your actual testing.. I'm just a math guy and don't have access to a dyno or parts like this. .. so speculation is my primary option.
I look at patterns of actual data and try to find patterns. You are the source of my data in this case.
I know the supercharger intake has short runners that are not tuned the same as the dual plane (or single plane).
The problem is a blower eats hp to make hp. Compressing air takes power to do so if making 14.7 psi doubles your power but takes 100hp to do (just using these numbers for example idk what the true number is) then you will be 100 hp lower than the math. It's closer on a turbo setup bc of less parasitic losses.
@@Redneckairflow i bet if this was one of the edelbrock/eatons they make for SBCs it would be a lot closer as theyre more efficient
More displacement + longer valve duration + better heads = less time to build boost. The 383 is too efficient relative to the 350 to maintain the same psi. Hotrodding is the funnest science.
The blower is too small that’s all
the 177 is converted from a big block blower his belt is slipping
the faster the engine spins the faster the blower spins
@@vinceyoung5912 bottom pully is too big. unless that blower is at max RPM step up to a 192 the biggest of the mini blowers.
FINALLY, THANK YOU!!!!! You showed that boost numbers are a measurement of back pressure!!!
back pressure in the exhaust is different-but boost is a measurement of a restriction
@@richardholdener1727 that is what i meant. I get tired of people telling how much "boost " they have..
Thanks for the SBC stuff!
Bigger engine bigger supercharger.. Lol
Bigger is better.. Glad i watched this.
Was thinking of putting one of these on my 385 sbc.😁
good tests. I feel that you're everyday backyard builder would build something similar to these so this is a good reference point.
that being said the 383 is still way more motor than the 350, the supporting mods used in the 383 like heads cam and bigger carb definitely show on the dyno graphs. the 350 seemed to have better results with the blower than the 383 did even though it made less than the 383. almost as if the 383 could have seen more of a gain with maybe a bigger or different blower. looking at the hp/trq cross they both seem to have the same cross points at the same rpms but different levels.
mix matched pieces and parts. Forced induction LOVES a lot of lobe separation.
Always amazed how bad blowers are psi for psi compared to modern superchargers and turbos
blowers were never designed to compress air like a turbo. they were designed to move air hence the name blower.
Very good info. Would've loved to hear that 383 idle and doing the dyno run
I always thought my engine made 400 hp, now I know! Thank you!
Personally I blame squirrels
Don't you have a job? 😝
@@TheProchargedmopar 😂
Chipmunks put him out of work so now he spends his days watching videos on TH-cam
😂
Thanks Richard. It needs a bigger blower? Maybe a 6-71?
Great data! Definitely glad I went with a Procharger based on my heads and cam combo.
Do that pro charger whistle at idle?
@@johnnyappleseed1131 not much but I paid extra for the quieter gears
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!! GREAT VIDEO AND EDUCATION!!!! THANKS FOR SHARING!!!! I LEARNED SO MUCH!!!!
Please explain what boost pressure is. Explain why valve and intake size increases restriction and increase boost pressure Please. Why flow is more important than boost. Carl banks explained this on diesel applications. Gassers may find this interesting.
Gail Banks? If you make the na motor more efficient (by almost any means), the motor will make more power at any given boost level (starts with more power and ends with more power)
When do you start worrying about crank deflection from the blower? I would like one blown motor in my life but thought they needed much more work and maintenance ..I have experience from .4hp - 4000hp. The only blower motors I know are Donovan's running 90-100% nitro..in a more docile set up maybe not as many issues? Ring selection? Not for gas mileage I'm sure.
Big Block Chevy crank, can be ordered with a larger crankshaft snout. The bigger the better 😮
Hey Richard I would love to see you do something with a buick 350. I have a gs350 the aftermarket is terrible for them and they get no love.
Kenne Bell use to make parts for the Buick.
If you want to do a Killer test on this platform, I'd love to see same camshaft lift and duration numbers BUT 1 cut on a 99 to 102 lsa. The others on people's thought of the 'must be' 114 to 118 lsa. I call bs. My time on a dyno for my applications I'd never run anything wider than 106. It's be SO awsome if you could work this test in some day. Expec on these small blocks and small blowers where it's going to be a street strip combo fir sure any way. Cylinder pressure makes torque, add boost wonderful things happen. E85 of course, prob will want 3 to 4 ° less timing
this was already a 108
Yep would be interesting to see. Though going down to 102 allways seemed a bit desperate, trying to get power from a small lobe. Out at 106 seemed a good compromise, though not if you have a single seater with the right gear ratios
And after thinking about it for months it finally clicked.
THE 355 HAD VALVE FLOAT AT 6000 RPM .
anti pump up crain lifters and procomp 400 pound blower valve springs would wake it right up.
And on the wild engine its only getting half the boost or so .
You say the na cam works good but the boost is being lost through the overlap
between the intake and exaust valves during the cycle.
not so much the 2 pumps fighting each other like I guessed the first time.
its simply blowing the boost right out the exaust during overlap .
and thats why your boost levels drop to almost nill.
Its a big cam making it show way more than on stock cam.
I like to see the big blower cam results compared to the Na cam...
NO SIR
You should do the same comparison or a similar one with a turbo so we can see the difference in spool times and at higher boost
I like the test but would be curious to see results with bigger blowers 671-871 on e 85. I am planning my next build and have a zz3 crate motor that I already upgraded to flat tops. I am thinking of afr 220s and a blow thru turbo or a roots or twin screw carb e85 set up. I have sprayed about 250hp on the zz3 with the flat tops and it runs great but want more power and tired of nos
oh yah and as per b&m we built our blowers bigger than what they needed and under drived them to keep a cooler charge meaning more horsepower and tork than competiters
and capabuility to exeed our ratings especially at high rpm.
and that is why superchargers are not allowed in built engine racing because its not a even playing feild
End of blower 101
THATS WHY GOD GAVE US THE NHRA LOL
blowers are great-but not the greatest (no such thing)
The 350 would have loved some turbos
Is it commonplace to only make ~10HP/psi with these 177 Weiands? I realize the 350 was a basic truck type motor, but that seems like more what I’ve seen from the smaller 142’s. Actually, with a 6” lower and 3.05 upper I’ve seen a 142 kit make more power per psi so I just thought the 177 would be more efficient.
I have a 174 on a bbc, it wheezes out quickly.
@@TheBdubya24 A 174 on a BB I imagine would be struggling from damn near idle lol. Well maybe not with some peanut ports or something but with any type of good head and a decent cam on a BBC I don’t even know why you would use anything that size personally. Maybe a bone stock head/mild can/stock displacement street setup would be about the only situation I would run a blower of that air volume on a BB. The 174s are well sized for like mild 302/305 type of combinations honestly, that’s more what it’s able to supply decent airflow to support.
Hey awesome video. I have some questions for you for a blown 355 sbc. i am using the low low rpm approach and want to make immense torque at low rpm without revving past 4500 rpm. Its for a 2nd gen camaro with tall gears. XR252HR or smaller cam. i want to spin the blower fast and up to 4500 or lower engine rpm and 4800 max. with a big blower and maybe significant boost and drive in a low rpm band with really tighter than stock antiballoon plate lock up torque converter.. i want big boost off idle with a bleed valve. target idle is 400 rpm. 6.125" H beams with 1.165" MAHLE blower piston 0.045" headgasket. Any CC chamber piston and head. Looking at trickflow super 23 175cc? Or jegs #5140000 heads 180cc? The tires are big radials on 15x12 wheels. A close ratio TH350 or 400. Cruiser not a race car. maybe a dart block with large bore same stroke or less.
400 rpm?
youd need a big ass blower crank pulley to do that at that low of RPM. maybe try for 6000 RPM
@@richardholdener1727
Is there a way to make 600 tq and 300 hp with a blown small block Chevy ? Hypothetically what would be the basics ?
Thanks for this vid! What im gathering from this and the 5.0 vid is a good flowing engine will make more HP with less boost! i want to put one one my 10:1CR, 355 SBC soooooo bad and with my current set up of Edelbrock E210 heads and Thumper cam and all the mods that go with it i should be able to run the smaller pullies and only make up to 3psi and not destroy my hypereutectic pistons! LOL maybe......
Like the old B&M supercharger.
I'd love to see this test with a methanol carburetor. I think the gains would be massive.
i heard these thing love E85 cause they make a lot of heat
@@KingJT80 correct. E85 will definitely help, but methanol will help more because of even better charge cooling.
@@jasonhaley5737 yes but you can't fill up with that at the station though. A lot of Midwest guys can get E85 no problem I guess if you're racing it won't matter
I'm curious what the IAT differences were between the two engines.
Would it be possible for you to do a video comparing all the chop monster or chop king cams on an ls5.3 and on collector or exhaust length?
chop monster?
Bigger motor, less resistance to boost = less boost, smaller motor more resistance = more boost. Resistance sucks horse power.
Have you ever dynoed a stock TBI 350?
8-71 on a 540 inch Cadillac, please! 👍
Sorry sorry sorry sorry LOL
I dont think its all volumetric efficency .
Because the belt system on the single carb superchargers the belt is designed to slip
as pop off valve under detonation to rescue the supercharger it will let the blower turn backwards.
And your running enough unchecked tork to spin tires inside of rims.
I think your crossing that line.
By unchecked I mean no drive train drag on it.
I think thats 60-80 horsepower and tork that is not going to show on lower torkband.
probably 60 on 350 and 80 on 383
the tork is just not going to hit that belt so hard with drive train behind it.
And I keep seeing in my head a race car spec decked block with piston coming all the way to top of block and a small cc chamber head on that super mouse saying 13 to 1 another variable?
Under another thought the supercharger and turbo under the load of vehicle.
and your boost graph starts at 4000 rpm
their going to pack the cylinders better.
Your turbo dynos are going to be weird too.
Because your not controlling the spool valve are you?
Even though it doesent have a belt to slip.
I Hope this is a more well thought out Explanation
belt designed to slip under detonation? sorry
@@richardholdener1727 Along with
my little triangle pop off valve with 2 little thin springs I took off lol
Afraid I was loosing boost and cranked down lol I should probably replace
The belt tensioner springs on B&M and WIEND Id think are designed just heavy
enough to hold
@@richardholdener1727 right in B&M service manuel cog belt guys aint so lucky ;
watch john force explodes in pomona
@@richardholdener1727 I actually ran big industrial superchargers on pto trucks
that unloads tanker trailors full of cement and other materials like dietamacous earth
to filter wine
I blow it up pipes into cylos they only put out 15 psi got stainless steel rotors
You can shoot them down the street and make them think their in a hurricane
like a jet engine ; we could drive line it into crank pipe it into carb of 383
see if we could make 50,000 horse power.lol
we could show those mad max ausie how to build a Rat Rod
with the smallblock from hell
Ive got my owners manuel catalog service manuel and directions for the 144 B&M
catalog covers all B&M superchargers with dyno graphs and such
I could shoot them to you over phone if you want
Need to add a 200 hp shot of nitrous with the blower!
Would this work on a carbureted LS?
Conclusion: Don't put a blower on a weak combination unless you just want that blower look and sound, and don't mess with these baby blowers on decent combinations, they will only disappoint compared to a more appropriate sized blower.
Not mentioned was the air temps, especially with the faster drive ratio. Comparing an old blower design like the 144 with Edelbrock's latest SBC kit, they both need more drive ratio to make decent boost, and while the 144 gets hot pretty quickly, the Edelbrock would be barely above ambient temperature, even after a few pulls.
Why not an 8-71 on a low rpm 350 sbc. 400-450 rpm idle, XR252HR or smaller roller cam. Tighter than stock blower converter maybe even a low rpm lock up. High boost at low rpm. Blower spins up fast on the cog. Forged crank, Hbeams and MAHlE custom pistons. Shall it work?
@@zAvAvAz Bet the maiden voyage kicks out the head gaskets.
42 different kinds of awesome
Richard, not worried about the 2 bolt block?
not this level
At what level would you worry? Wanted to ring gap my l98, push around 12#s shifting at 6k.
@@TheBdubya24 I have an L98 on 12.5 lbs with twins myself. Bone stock 91 firebird stock ring gap. Been together for 4-5 yrs
That's great news kd! I was scared about pulling pistons also. I just want this '84 Vette to have a little self respect.
@@TheBdubya24 I have that firebird 305 tpi in a 54 cadillac and it will annihilate the tires and its hard to keep the u joints together. Also have an 86 corvette 355 tpi I'm about to switch from single gt45 to a compound gt45 set up in an 85 suburban we'll see how that goes.
How about the 8-71 on them both
Can I use the 2nd cam on a "daily drive" blown 383...? Is 8.8:1 ratio enough with this cam? What part number? Which stall and rear ratio should we use?
you don't want that 383 cam in a daily driver
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you Richard. My current cam is NX276hr nitrous cam. I want to go bigger cam for daily drive. I am between NX288HR and XR294HR-10. Can I use 294 cam in daily drive.. or shuld I get .637 .621 230, 250 custom cam.. I am lost...
I WAS LOOKING AT PUTTING A 671 OR 871 ON MY 350 LT1, BUT THIS BUILT 383 WITH THE LITTLE BLOWER WOULD LOOK ALOT BETTER IN MY FIREBIRD. 650 HP IS A LITTLE LOW, BUT I'D ADD A 125 SHOT NOS
650HP in a gbody or fbody would walk a hellcat and keep up with a shelby/ZL1...its enough.
@@KingJT80this dude is just looking for attention this is the reason dudes kill themselves in cars is cause they think they can handle more than what they really can
Have you done a blow through dual plain intake and could your improve response through higher torque numbers
dual plane adds low speed compared to single plane-works the same under boost (this had the blower intake-also not great for low speed)
Great info so basically saying better to go nitrous more power lots cheaper lol
Would a 177 work on a 454 bbc
yes-if you only wanted 600 hp or so
they make a kit on it but Richard is right. 600HP is about all it has in it . should step up to an 8-71 on a BBC
would it still work to put an old school blower ment for a carbureted motor on a tbi 350
yes-as long as you can get enough fuel flow
Find it hard to spend 3500 plus for a blower setup when you can get easy 450 hp on carb s for much less ???
yeah you have to spin it faster with the 7 inch pulley and to 7K RPM otherwise yeah why bother? but if you spin that 177, no NA small block unless its a big 434 is gonna make 650. thats 496 big block territory
I noticed this is a old video but with that 383 combo NA with that cam ?Could you daily drive that with that 600 lift cam?
lift does not alter drivability much-that is duration and over lap
can we see the motor run 😢
how much you think having this setup intercooled would net you?
NOT MUCH AT THESE BOOST LEVELS (AND IT HAS CHARGE COOLING ALREADY FROM THE CARB)
What is the difference between 142 vs 177? On a 383 stroker engine.
THE 177 SHOULD BE CAPABLE OF MORE POWER
@@richardholdener1727 25 - 40 percent more? Oh and thank you for your time.
@@DiedrichKnickerbocker1783 maybe 50 more HP IF you did spin but i know a 144 is kinda small for a 383. i watch a guys YT channel and he has a 144 on a 355 small block. runs good and probably makes 400 to the wheels in his gbody cutlass. but a 383 is gonna want more air in that combo like this one
What if you and nitrous with supercharger
yes
Wine-O 177 supercharger
If there would be a guy to rip my blueprint 350 out and give it to ……. You are the guy lol. That being said It would be amazing for you to build mine 😭😭😂
Bigger motor with better heads just swallows the boost
Any ring gap?
never checked
what was the timing on the crank for the blown 383?
29 with good gas
29?
At idle ?
Stroked and blown… Ahhhh…
Bevis and Buthead- probably.
Do u have to run timing retard of any kind running an blower on these engines?? I've heard that these blowers have blown up engines.
you always run less timing with boost on any engine
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you very much for responding!
Turbos would be better for the money
👍💪
👍🏽👍🏽
Wrong cam for 383 for boost. Perfect for NA. Wrong LSA for boost.
#WRONGCAM
@richardholdener1727 I'm sure you are well aware of this. You even mentioned it in the video. Certainly don't want any valve overlap in boosted applications. You know way more than I do. I'm just an amateur hot rodder (old school).
you do want overlap in a cam under boost-if it makes more power na-it will make more power under boost
Watched it again 650 carb was garbage
750 would be smallest 850 would be way better
650 was choking engine period thats like 305 carb i got a 750 and its a little big
but on 305 it uses it once it gets to 4000 rpm
id of tryed the 950 on it and worked backwards going to 850
and used Edelbrock for the bigger pump
Ive never seen less than 750 on blower ever
Keep testing!!! Oh and by a comb you're hair is a mess lol
The school of hard knocks that youve started you didnt tell every body to do certain things to be able to run that race gas .
1 They put it in their car and the car never runs again and they cant figure out what to fix and keep throwing money at it and their funds are limited.
2 4/5s of your fan base Are dirty White boys ,Thats including other races Should say backyard wrenches,
on a limited budget.
Thats going to run 92 pump gas .
And its a whole different Ball game.
And having a new built 10 thousand dollar engine
and all they have to show for it is a bunch of hammered pistons and shortened rods.
But have spent their life savings building that engine.
3 Unless they run a 6000 rpm stall converter theyl never see that extra couple hundred
horse power you just showed us here .
in fact with the race gas they lost 2 10s in the Quarter mile after adding the blower
and cant figure out why .
Im a fan not a troll.
Do this video again on 92 pump gas
and get us through the hard knocks.
Thats what your good at s
just letting you know about our needs thank you for the videos
PUMP GAS ONLY CHANGES THE REQUIRED TIMING
Mystey
GREED YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE WHAT THE TITLE SAYS BLOWN 350 VS WILD 383 STROKER .
NOT BLOWN WILD 383 .
YOUR PEEING ALL OVER YOUR LEG AND HAVENT GOT A CLUE LOL
THE REASON BEING IS THE FORCE OF THE WIND HITTING YOU IN THE FACE.
IS GREATER THAN FORCE OF YOUR PEE SHOOTING OUT
BLOWER AND TURBO 101
YOU THINK 12 + 12 =24 wrong what happens when you blow up 2 balloons and put
the spouts together?
The answer is nothing.
You had me going lol big stars in my eyes ok Bling
I had to go back to my roots to see what was going on HA HA HA
That 383 is 12 to one your blower is 12 to 1 on dyno 400 crank is 100 horse
so were taking it out of picture because reaching higher in cylinder might even push 13 and a half to one
a little turbo at 25 psi would have been better raising it to 15 to one but the 1600 degree exaust tells me
a a realy big detonation is coming on the hot air making fuel develope fumes making explosion too great for heads to handle.
purpose built is every thing
your 383 had forced induction already going on without blower the reason you got a extra hundred horse at end of your pull was at 7000 rpm 9si finaly exeded your 12 to one compression making like 14 to 15 to one.
so lets go your little 350 blown against your built 350 wild card taken out of picture
stock 350 supercharged will beat built 350 because even though even at 12 and a half to one off throttle
the blower at 5 psi makes 7-8 to one at 5 psi as it goes through rpm it exede s 13-1 compression and keeps going.
even though your built 350 might run more horse power the blown 350
exedes on tork maybe not on dyno yet double the back pressure
on your dyno and watch what that beautifull little blower does lol
under load it starts packing the cylinders twice as much upping horse power and tork
at 15- to 16 to one compression your underdog just ripped apart your built 350
Go ahead prove me wrong
As per B&M that little blower forced induction does every thing cam and heads do
and as per B&M
up to 6000 rpm than a cam can start helping and you have to go springs and rollers to fight
valve float
And as per me I prefer goodwrench 190 horse box engine for its hollowed epoxy filled valves
that have never failed in 20 years and comp 400 pound valve spring crain anti pump up lifters
better pistons and bearings not to exeed 9 and a half to 1
eldor brock 750 for its low end tork
and your always better having cooler 5-7 charge
the higher rpm barrier crossed will up that boost level all on its own
lighter valve train means higher rpm as per you richard lol
oh yah and as per b&m we built our blowers bigger than what they needed and under drived them to keep a cooler charge meaning more horsepower and tork than competiters
and capabuility to exeed our ratings especially at high rpm.
and that is why superchargers are not allowed in built engine racing because its not a even playing feild
End of blower 101
THATS WHY GOD GAVE US THE NHRA LOL
feel free to switch supercharger with turbo any where in supercharger turbo 101
the same basics apply and i forgot for stainless valve needing 9/16 rocker studs
And rich even though my 144 is rated 144cfm its the same size as your 177 blower
you have so much to learn-but thnx for all the comments
@@richardholdener1727 You pegged that one
It kind of angers me that the roots superchargers doesnt get the respect that they dont get the respect that they should get because the dyno brake isnt enough
to show their real horsepower and tork
the only reason the turbo does half fast is it makes its own back pressure.
bad builds on top of it making them look bad its like calling nitro alcahol
Yikes.
That blower looks gay azphuk. Skinny belt on a 12 inch snout. How about a hot rod blower? 6-71 or 8-71? That would go on a car that you didn't want anyone to see it because of the embarrassment. 😵😬😁
If you think the blower belt size dictates something about you-you have issues
That blower is the very definition of a poser. What a waste of $.
its not the blower-we made 1000 hp with it
you have to spin that bad boy as fast as you can
It amazes me how many "gurus" continue to call engines motors. I guess they don't know the difference.
I agree-we should contact General Engines and the Ford Engine Company and complain!
First
Every single time you do a comparison it is bullshit . How bout just changing the bore/ stroke !
SAME BLOWER, SAME PULLEYS, TWO DIFFERENT ENGINES-SEEMS LEGIT!
@@richardholdener1727 my thing is they aren't the same base platform. There are so many variables created with the use of trick components , it's like comparing apples to elephants.
He's just showing what each type of engine can do if someone is curious of what they would want to build or not build