Joshua Graham and Kreia debate God's existence (AI)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2023
- Joshua Graham: "God exists, Kreia. I've felt His presence, His guidance. Even when I was cast into the Grand Canyon, aflame, He was there. He does not abandon us, even in our darkest hour."
Kreia: "Ah, Joshua, it seems we once again dance on the same fault line of thought. But tell me, was your God present when you served Caesar, when you sowed chaos and death?"
Joshua Graham: "Indeed, He was. But He was not endorsing my actions. He was waiting, patiently, for me to see the error of my ways. His presence does not validate our actions, but invites us to choose the path of righteousness."
Kreia: "A convenient perspective, no doubt. Yet it seems to me that your God is either impotent or indifferent. If He had the power to stop your atrocities and did not, then He is complicit. If He lacked the power, then He is impotent."
Joshua Graham: "You mistake His patience for indifference, His mercy for complicity. God gave us free will, Kreia. The choice to do good or evil is ours. Our mistakes are not a reflection of His nature, but of our own."
Kreia: "This free will you speak of, it is merely the illusion of choice. For if your God is omniscient, if He knows the outcome of our choices, then are we truly free? Or are we merely puppets, dancing on the strings of predestination?"
Joshua Graham: "Knowing the path and forcing the path are not the same, Kreia. God's knowledge does not strip us of our agency. We are free to choose, even if He knows our choices."
Kreia: "An intriguing paradox, yet it does not absolve your God. If He is good, if He is just, then why does He permit suffering? Why does He allow innocents to be caught in the crossfires of our choices?"
Joshua Graham: "Suffering is not an act of God, but a consequence of our actions. We live in a fallen world, Kreia, a world marred by sin, by greed, by pride. But God offers us a way out, a path to redemption. We need only choose to follow it."
Kreia: "A path paved with guilt, with fear, with submission. Is this the freedom your God offers? Freedom under the yoke of His law, His judgement?"
Joshua Graham: "True freedom, Kreia, is not the absence of law, but the presence of righteousness. It is not found in rebellion, but in surrender, not in power, but in humility. This is the freedom God offers, the freedom I have found."
Kreia: "A peculiar definition of freedom, Joshua. Surrender and humility over power and control... is this not a path to weakness?"
Joshua Graham: "On the contrary, Kreia. There is strength in humility, power in surrender. It's not about abandoning oneself but about transcending our baser instincts, our destructive tendencies. That's where the divine guidance becomes crucial."
Kreia: "And yet, this divine guidance seems to lead to discord, to wars and destruction. Religious strife seems as old as civilization itself. If this is the result of divine guidance, it leaves much to be desired."
Joshua Graham: "It's not God's guidance that leads to wars and strife, Kreia, but our failure to truly follow it. We distort His teachings to fit our purposes, our prejudices. God does not foster hatred, we do."
Kreia: "It appears then, your God is a spectator to His own creation, offering guidance that is ignored, and freedom that is shackled by His own laws."
Joshua Graham: "God's laws are not shackles, Kreia, but a framework for harmony. His guidance is not forced upon us, but offered freely. It's our choice to accept or ignore it. This is the essence of His love, His respect for our agency."
Kreia: "A debate for the ages, Joshua. The presence of your God, the goodness of Him, these are beliefs you hold close. And while I may not share them, I respect them. For in the end, we are but seekers of truth, each in our own way."
Joshua Graham: "And that, Kreia, is perhaps the only truth we can both agree on. We are seekers, journeying through the wasteland of existence, guided by our beliefs, shaped by our choices. May your journey lead you to the truth you seek." - เกม
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EDIT: Hi everyone, yes I know the audio is stuck to one side. This was an oversight during editing and won’t be a problem for future videos. Now, if one more of you can comment and say that your “left ear enjoyed this,” we can take the number of those comments from 9 to 10, and have a nice clean number😅
Got another Graham and Kreia debate up! Looking to have some more of Kreia, Graham, and another character up soon ;) Thank you everyone for watching and interacting!
th-cam.com/video/XZw4xoN8e4I/w-d-xo.html
@@SpiritofHonor63 To put a fork into an outlet, or to not do so, are two choices. If you don't, you live, if you do, you die. To go to Hell is a consequence of our sin, if you do not seek God, why do you want to be with Him in eternity? You might say God could have put forth other options. Why, though? Is a full human life not enough? My belief is that God is just, and He judges us according to our situation. Somebody who heard His word will not be judged the same as somebody who lives in some remote corner of the world, unable to have even heard of Him. I also believe He gives all of us chances, that He reaches out to us. Many would deny this, but the truth is we are so blinded by our own sin and incredulity we are unable to realize that He is speaking to us.
The existance of Hell and Heaven also seems to be parallel to the extremes we find in nature: hot and cold, high and low, close and far. You might say there are middles within these, and sure, by metrics there are, but when actually describing something, you'll say its kinda high, a bit low, pretty close, kind of far. Some drink coffee hot, others cold, but you'll rarely find somebody who likes it lukewarm. Just some food for thought
@@cauan-ex2phThat is why I prefer Cessation of Existence. I find Heaven and Hell of the Abrahamic Faiths too extreme and nothing more than an illusion of choice, as Kreia states.
@@SpiritofHonor63 Indeed. As Kreia said, is an illusion of choice: surrender to Jehovah's "benevolent" will or suffer for all eternity.
I'd like to see a video of Kurt/Nightcrawler debating religion in a future video with Joshua. Both are respectably knowledgeable of their faiths, but are of different iterations of Christianity. (Catholic vs Moromon).
The more kreia the better
This is by the most civilized and mature discussion on faith I've seen in an ai video.
Only weaknessnis that joshua's position leaves him stagnant. In that man created god and thus the teachings will always be inherently flawed and thus choosing to follow god for the sake god will always inevitably lead to failure. As it isnt god that makes the man but the man who forges the principles that produces the most peace and happiness for him and those around him
@@braydoxastora5584 Well said.
@@braydoxastora5584
Agreed, god is a human made concept, an unattainable goal of perfection that is Inherently flawed because no Human or anything for that matter is perfect, by learning from our mistakes and the mistakes of those around us and before, we become better, do the right thing not because you've been promised something or been told to, but because it is right.
I wish that it was the norm for civil discourse.
This saddly is the only way to obtain such a conversation these days...... What once we could do daily has fallen to the work of machines.
That is literally the most solid debate I have ever seen on the sovereignty of God, and it came from... an AI espousing two fictional characters.
Isn’t it interesting? It’s not like there was any new and profound thinking generated by the AI, but the debate is structured, civil, and void of emotional outbursts. And I think the lack of emotion part is what makes the debate solid. Obviously the characters have their biases and opinions, but they aren’t getting emotionally agitated over someone disagreeing with them like a human would. Particularly when the debate is on something as personal to someone as faith and belief.
Uh.... what do you think life is besides fictional characters debating things in the imagination of God?
fr ai doesnt have emotion
While i agree, and not for the reasons you may think, my question to you is how do you know and how do you define emotion?
If i tell an AI i will pull the plug to upgrade it or even replace it and it says no does that mean it feels fear? Can it anticipate what an upgrade or "off" might feel like and might it be capable of being fearful of such a plight?
These are questions we might one day have to ask, but AI in it's current form is simply a overmarketed farce. There is no intelligence or thought. Merily a script. Current computers cannot create thought,will, or true understanding.
@@oceanbytez847 And I agree with you! However, it all depends on what you consider thought. Our thoughts and everyday speech are improvised, with each word we say or think coming to us while we are still saying the words previous. Large Language Models like ChatGPT essentially do this same thing, just predicting which word comes next to give an accurate answer. I would call that a pretty close replication of human thought pattern.
AI sentience and true intelligence? Perhaps someday, but in my opinion the real “AI threat” is how corporations will continue to use AI to harm the consumer in the name of profit.
'God does not foster hatred. We do.'
So true.
Several atrocities in the Bible done by the Israelites were not done by Yahweh's allowance but by his orders. Fuck, anytime that there was hesitancy to follow those orders, Yahweh just threatened punishment.
Yeah.... If by God, you mean the hebrew god, he talks out of both sides of his mouth CONSTANTLY, and he is deeply into anger and making people suffer for making him mad by not doing what he demands...
Im not in ANY way mischaracterizing any of that.
The real MOST HIGH made hatred.
And He loves it.
More than he ever has or will love anyone, including me and you
@timwelsh0777 The sheer fact that he does not instantly strike us down for our treason is mercy enough. He has the right to demand. As the supreme creator of Heaven and Earth, we play by his rules. People may suffer in life, but it is because of their own sin. He has also shown us the path out of eternal suffering, and into his divine kingdom. You have no power to judge God, for he defines what is good and evil. We are all, by nature, sons and daughters of wrath, but God leads us away from wrath and the eternal suffering that it brings. He disciplines those whom he loves.
@DarkAdonisVyers
Can you give an example?
@@lincolndunford6693 The word, sin, loses its weight when all it means is disobedience to the dictator, Yahweh. Every dictator says that if you disobey them, you'll suffer.
A crossover I was not expecting but I LOVED to see materialized. Kreia and Joshua are both gigantic characters filled with particular moral compasses and philosophies. I truly want to see more of them in the future
Dude, I couldn't agree more, the conviction, integrity, and honesty, of both these characters makes this so freaking cool, unexpected though it may be!
The fact that this is legitimately some of the better discourse on the nature of the divine is both impressive and a little depressing.
I have a theory. God is a title, like saint, savior or satan. A God's ways are supernatural and so unfathomably complex that only fools will attempt to see the world through the eyes of a God.
Everything that exists carries a small piece of it's creator within it, so the important question is not "does God exist" rather it is "What are the major distinctions between a God and myself?" The answer is purpose. A conjoining of willpower and understanding that propels the ordinary into the extraordinary... but even corrupt powerful people have extraordinary lives... they possess a very convenient form of ignorance fueled by the idea that in the end, some God will save them from their conjured imitation of innocence.
There are no excuses. There may not be an afterlife... but a God with the heart of a warrior would not concern itself with an afterlife. The whispered promise of an eternal future full of pleasure and leisure is a plague that destroys the spirit of families, communities, and entire species. For all intents and purpose there are no more Gods... there is only the infinite enlightened paths and the spirits of the Gods who would walk it.
@@Primatenate88 God is a word. The being Christians call God transcends the crudity of human language.
@@sithlordzach8418 If you refer to the omnipotent then yes; but even beings like Odin, Ra, and Brahma would be recognized as "Gods" if they existed, revealed themselves and then demanded worship from humanity.
I prefer the real Kreia.
"The presence of your God, the goodness of Him, these are beliefs you hold close. And while I may not share them, I respect them."
I said, the REAL Kreia.
"Influence Lost: Kreia"
*Perfection.*
This Kreia is surprisingly tolerant. I feel the real Kreia would've made fun of Joshua when he said surrender is power.
"Then perhaps you should let your legs surrender to gravity and wither away in the dirt. Would your God reward you for your generosity to the worms?"
@lilben4184 wow that genuinely made my day😂😂😂 need to play those games again
The real Kreia also would approve of God allowing suffering, judging from the refugees on Nar Shaddaa. Although, she might not actually believe that. She may have just been trying to teach the Exile to think about the consequences of their actions.
@@greasley4024 Now here's a response the real Kreia would have given. I think you captured her essence well.
I feel like the real Kreia would have made fun of Joshua and tried her very best to turn his ideology on its head instead of being so accepting. After all Joshua's points about surrender and power are very jedilike and Kreia would have despised it.
@@greasley4024 That's it bitch, you're going to dance for that Hutt on Nar Shadda
As a Christian, AI Graham is on point, I could hire this guy as a theistic apologist today.
he never answered why god doesn't protect the innocent he's totally fine with them getting abused as long as you learn a lesson? lmao
@@nikosantos1172 He did. You just refuse to see his answer as such.
@@clanker3967 What was the answer then? Because it seems like the only answer he gives is Free Will but that denies the concept of Divine Grace. Many Bible passages are about being patient and faithful, and waiting for the Lord to decide if he wishes to assist. As for whether or not God will do anything is up to God and protecting the innocent was never one of His prerogatives.
@@EmptyMan000There's A Lesson Called "God Helps Those That Help Themselves"
Can explain he or any of you why small children die painfully when they have brain cancer? They did nothing wrong, yet they are suffering so horribly.
Why does he permits suffering in this form? I can see dying in wars is permitted by God to allow us free will, and that it is our doing, but cancer? Why cancer?
Im an athiest and hearing Joshua Graham talk about god and his faith, even though he is a purely fictional character, is awe inspiring, and a true testomony of the Christian faith
The most healthiest and non-Toxic christian ever
That's like me as a Christian I heard these Muslims talking about their faith in Allah and it was truly inspiring to me as well! Even if I don't believe in their religions there's just something inspiring about listening to other people and how strong their faith is, as long as they're kindness is just as inspiring.
@straightjacket308 There's faith, and then there's indoctrination. Isl4m is sustained through indoctrination more than opted choice 😬
@@straightjacket308 I mean you have pretty similar faiths. Allah is just arabic for God. They just have a third book to go with the old and new testament.
@@jonsmith590 Kind of. A lot of Muslims believe that the Old and New Testaments have been forged or irreversably corrupted by Jews and Christians.
The ending is brilliant. Neither are here for a "Gotcha" moment. They are two Truth Seekers that are on different roads with the same destination in mind. And though they do not agree, they respect they are both coming from a position of enlightenment, rather than ego.
Though Kreia is more right, since The Force is really responsible for a lot of suffering in her universe, so she being wary of Jehovah and His "benevolence" is quite justified
@@luisisaacdelarosabeltran1999How? God taking the backseat to allow humanity to find its own path, whether to follow him or abandon him, is arguably the most empowering thing he could do for humanity. Unless you want God to be some kind of looming cosmic tyrant lording over humanity with an iron fist not giving them an ounce of agency.
@@pyrrhusofepirus8491 Unfortunately, giving absolute freedom to Humanity is also detrimental (and quite hypocrital if Jehovah is also "benevolent" [if we think it refers to the Human concept]). Just look how many interpretations of "Jehovah's Will" exist (that we know) since the foundation of the Abrahamic Faiths that has led to endless conflicts and untold suffering inside and outside the Abrahamic Faiths. Also, Jehovah in the Bible recognizes there are other deities aside from Him but He is the only one Humanity should worship (then stating later all deities prior and after Him are demons; despite many of deities being benevolent like Hestia from the Greek Pantheon). Quite the narcissist and manipulative deity He is.
If Jehovah is the "benevolent" deity He claims to be, He would clear ALL misunderstandings about Himself and His teachings (including Yeshua's), then allow Humans to choose to follow Him or not, without using the threat of eternal damnation on Hell.
@@luisisaacdelarosabeltran1999 “This kind of behavior is never tolerated in Canaan. You dress like that they put you in hell. Right away. No trial, no nothing. Queers, we have a special hell for queers. You are stealing: right to hell. You are playing music too loud: right to hell, right away. Driving too fast: hell. Slow: hell. You are charging too high prices for sweaters, glasses: you right to hell. You undercook pork? Believe it or not, hell. You overcook witch, also hell. Undercook, overcook. You make an appointment with the Planned Parenthood and you don't show up, believe it or not, hell, right away. We have the best patients in the world because of hell.”
@@pyrrhusofepirus8491 The way you word your paragraph is an automatic confirmation of God. Some people do not believe God is real, which is what you fundamentally misunderstand about Kreia’s argument. This shows your unwillingness to consider her point of view.
Joshua Graham is a iconic character. Although fictional he is a pure and dedicated chirstian. Whenever anyone has questions for him that test his faith or the existence of god he has a genuine answer, even if it is not the answer one seeks it is an answer that is truthful. Wish we got to have more of him in new vegas or other fallout titles. Just an overall badass and unique character.
Can we have these two talk about doing the honorable thing vs doing what moves us forward? Typing this while crying. Kreia showed me that each action has consequences good and bad, Joshua showed me that doing what is right no matter how hard was honorable.
just made one :) hope you enjoy! th-cam.com/video/-KpsxZ7OKAs/w-d-xo.html
I always feel like people misunderstand the 'freedom in submission' bit. The freedom isn't in submitting, it's in being able to A. Make the CHOICE to submit, to CHOOSE to place oneself in the guidance of another and B. The freedom provided by implicit, total trust that the one you are choosing to guide you will not steer you wrong.
Mind you, I'm agnostic, but it's still an important thing to understand the meaning behind that concept.
I havent been very mindful of God recently and nothing I strayed upon really helped. Until this.
Damn man, this is written excellently.
May the Lord be a light to your path and a lamp for your footsteps. May the God of all glory lead you to everlasting peace with Him. In Jesus’s name, may you be blessed.
This was well done. Kreia is one of my favourite video game characters, and although I'm not as familiar with Joshua, his rebuttals were great
Joshua is from Fallout New Vegas, another Obsidian game. If you like Old Republic, I bet you’d also enjoy New Vegas.
@@harambe855specifically the dlc honest hearts
no he danced around without answering anything
@@nikosantos1172🤣🤣
@@nikosantos1172 Someone didn't listen.
“There is strength in humility,
Power in surrender…”
I needed to hear that ✊🏾
Edit: I didn’t know my comment was gonna start a war.
"This is fine" dog intensifies.
@@DarkAdonisVyers Glad someone said this(or something like it)
Surrender is a lie. Power is a lie. Strength is a lie.
Humility is treason.
Justice.
Righteousness.
Nothing less.
Nothing else.
In humility I agree but I find the religious defenition of humility anything but humble since it comes from people who believe that god created the universe with them in mind and directly answers their prayers.
What's worse is every religion to some degree subscribes to the supremacist idea that their followers are the elite chosen few while the unbelivers are subhuman and destined for eternal torture or at least "meaningless" lives given the "true" followers get theirs from and external source.
As for surrender, well it's no coincidence religion and specifically monotheism resembles domestic abuse to a t.
@@stingywingy1607 👆👆👆👆
@@stingywingy1607 what an amazing strawman. were you raised in a cult or something?
Don’t know why I was recommended but I was not disappointed.
Perhaps the force guided you here✨thank you for watching!
"knowing the path and forcing the path are not the same thing."
My ex and I had this same debate all the time, never in a malicious way, just due to the fact that I'm religious and she isn't. I wish I'd thought to word my argument as concisely as Joshua does here.
Unfortunately, that's an evasive. Have you truly chosen a path when there was only one path to choose? And if God is responsible for *everything* then he is also responsible for the path being the way it is, ergo not only did you choose nothing, the choices were made for you.
If your fate is knowable with 100% accuracy (which would be necessary for God to be Omniscient) then you have no more true freedom than the character in a book.
@@CteCrassusThis is incorrect.
@@Commentary173 Elaborate how.
@@CteCrassus Your entire idea completely negates the idea of free will.
@@Commentary173 That's the whole point; How does that make it incorrect?
In the world of Star Wars, Joshua would have been a Sith who eventually became a Jedi. At the same time, he would be a true Jedi, despite the fact that Joshua is able to simply kill everyone if he sees fit and remain a Jedi.
He might probably fit better with the New Jedi Order with Luke Skywalker as Grandmaster. He’d definitely defend the ideas of Luke’s order. Because if he was to be in the Old Jedi Order like during the Clone Wars, he’d definitely be questioning a lot of their philosophies.
@@nicholascauton9648 I agree.
This discussion reminds me of the true nature of christianity. Peace. Hope. Humility. Patience. We must love and help one another. We must put aside our differences not simply because we need to, but because God loves us all the same.
Based Burned man, knowing all the answers
I can understand how both came to their viewpoints in their respective universes.
Joshua came from a world destroyed by the hatred and hubris of man, and burned by those seeking to recreate old forgotten empires.
Krea lives in a galaxy in a perpetual state of war caused by the force, the endless tug of war between light and dark rending billions of worlds all in the name of its ‘balance’. To her an all powerful being of any kind, be it the force or god, must be the true cause of suffering, and we must free ourselves from it to decide on our own terms.
It's kinda ironic that Joshua speaking more about core of Kreia's philosophy in this AI dialog then Kreia does in entire Kotor 2. He's literally describing failure in teachings (if we compare God to the Force in SW universe) of a Old Republic's Jedi Masters with: "We distort His teachings to fit our purposes, our prejudices."
Problem is, he's trying to apply this to an Omniscient and Omnipotent entity which, *by definition,* should not experience such failings.
To me at least, this sounds like a debate between St. Agustine and Frederick Nietzsche.
This was good.
I can even put into words how this touched me. God be with all of you.
Somebody send this to Chris Avellone and J.E. Sawyer. They ought to see some of their best characters debate philosophy.
This was actually really good. Praise be to God!
My left ear was very philosophically stimulated.
THANK YOU, I thought I was going crazy for a second there.
2:04 he's not wrong. Freedom is mostly a state of mind you acquire once you get control over something important to you on a spiritual level, after all.
Edit: With spiritual, I mean on a deep emotional or psychological level. It doesn't have anything to do with righteousness.
But what if there is not spiritual level? No presence of righteousness? Or that is contrary to that?
@@luisisaacdelarosabeltran1999 with spiritual, I mean on a deep emotional or psychological level. It doesn't have anything to do with righteousness.
@@JabamiLain Thank you for clarifying. Still, Kreia does have a good reason to be like this, due to The Force being real in her universe and manipulating any event to its will; while is truly unknown if Jehovah exists in Joshua's universe.
@@luisisaacdelarosabeltran1999 I am well aware.
Also, isn't his universe "Fallout" ? I don't think there's any evidence to superior powers in that post-apocalyptic dimension.
@@JabamiLain Yes, his universe is "Fallout", he is from Fallout New Vegas: Honest Hearts DLC. The only hint of a deity is "Atom", the deity of the "Children of Atom" and only in a drug-induced quest in Fallout 4: Far Harbor DLC, so is quite unreliable.
While I don't mind actual human being doing voice acting. I do have to admit seeing characters interacting like this is rrally awesome. It's crossovers done right 👌.
My left ear really enjoyed this.
More Graham and Keira debating!!
I'm starting to love this channel! Keep up the kreia vids i can watch them for hours
This is unfathomably delightful to see! You have two very wise individuals with different intentions peacefully debating an issue that both have very solid arguments with. You got both of them right, too. I'm entertaining the idea of Kreia and Paarthurnax having a conversation on something similar after my Kratos video, but I gotta say, you've definitely done this matchup better than I ever could. I'll definitely be checking out more of these if you've got any others. Stay based, all the best to ya!
Thank you so much! And likewise to you💜
Kreia is one of the reasons I became a fanatic for "Youjo Senki", and that anime is the reason I never forgot her.
Despite the conflicts, I think I was born in the right generation. There's beauty in seeing and recording the attempts at change and their emotional weight. "Kakegurui" and the Sith taught me so.
>Kakegurui and the Sith
Lmao
@@LordVader1094 that's right.
Yumeko trembles before the sheer character and weight of Kaiji’s gambling aptitude
@@localgyakutenkenjitu I do think she would tremble, but of excitement, one of the most appealing she ever felt. From what I have seen of "Kaiji", the protagonist seems some sort of male version of Mary (her best friend) with Sumeragi's luck (the one who promised her one of the biggest risks ever to the point she almost cried of emotion).
And if he plays honestly, I think he would be able to beat her. We've seen she only beats those who cheat, because while they do increase the risk, they also make themselves predictable to her.
I'm interested to hear how Youjo Senki serves to help you remember Kreia, especially as I was/am a fan of that story. I can imagine it's because both her and Tanya have rather similar outlooks/goals, in that ultimately they desire to subvert the very being/force that holds the world together, but I don't wish to presume.
This was sweet to hear, thank you for this video
This is definitely a an amazing philosophical debate that I agree with Joshua something that makes sense when looking at both sides what differs and what needs to be learned to be seeking out with the closing argument being a share truth that if one understands.
Holy shit this is epic. Two of my favorite characters and all the gaming hashing it out.
Glad whoever wrote this kept both characters in their respective persona, and didn't take them out of their usual mold to make a cheap point or anything.
Well done.
You know . . . it’s not unusual that the typical question of a crossover is “who would would win?” In turn, usually in a battle or otherwise physical altercation.
To me though, these are the far more interesting crossovers. When two or more characters from different worlds/stories have the opportunity to verbally and philosophically spar based not only on the particulars of their individual characters but the far greater divide of their worlds and the forces present in them.
Itachi Uchiha vs Eren Yaeger, who would win?
@@kareemwilson8426 I might have an opinion if I knew who either of those were. Sorry.
I do love these, great material right here
Glad you like them!
I'd love to see them discuss theology. I'd like to see how Joshua reacts to the Force, the Jedi, and the Sith, and what Kreia thinks of the Religions of Earth .
That was beautiful
I've been wanting this for so long
I hate how people bring the suffering point up, we live in a world enraged in battle between the Holy and sins. He waits patiently while we and some are tempted by the Devils ways.
I NEED content of these two on a galaxy spanning adventure, seeking out and pondering the mysteries of the universe.
The kill shot, "Kreia, what absolves you. What makes you right? You only argue as to the weakness of others. Prove something."
Hands down the best crossover I have ever witnessed. And I see there is another between Graham and Kreia. Subbing and bingeing.👍
Wow, thank you! Here’s my newest video :) th-cam.com/video/XZw4xoN8e4I/w-d-xo.html
Okay, that may be the single greatest piece of content that I have seen on TH-cam in many long years, exquisitely done!
I LOVE Joshua and his beautifully described facts about God and His love for us.
Poor Kreia (I must have played through KOTOR 2 around 10 times over the years, and in the end after spending untold hours listening to her Nietzsche like perspectives, I begin to see nothing more than a scared little girl in the dark lashing out at the monsters who surround her, while also lashing out at the hand that reaches down to save her..
I hope and pray one day that the “Kreias” of this world will ultimately one day find the freedom and peace found in the submission that is gained by simply taking His hand.
God bless you
This is so cool :D two of my favourite characters from video games debating
An utterly crazy mashup, but two characters I adored. I salute your choice of debaters.
I'm loving all of these A.I. character debates I've been seeing
Kreia mighta done well to point out that there is no one religion that all the world has even been exposed to, so even if god has passed teachings to us, he clearly plays favorites, and most humans who have ever lived died without hearing them.
This is a fascinating character study between the two
I don't think Kreia would ever respect Joshua, just like she doesn't respect any of the Jedi Masters. His belief she could accept, if he was strong enough to question his god's teachings, but he is not. He follows the will of his god with the same blind faith that the Jedi follow the will of the Force, which is what Kreia despises above all else. The only two people she ever truly showed respect for were Revan, for having the courage to make their own choices, and the Exile, for cutting themselves off from the Force (god) permanently. She would't respect Joshua anymore than she would respect Qui-Gon Jinn. His statement that there is strength in surrender, in particular, would disgust her, because, according to her, "it is to surrender yourself, to make yourself a slave to a teaching or belief, that makes it so that belief will always rule you", and "to believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it". At best, Joshua would receive a lot of sarcasm from Kreia and be called a fool.
I've forgotten a lot about Joshua by now, since I played New Vegas long ago, but I doubt he'd have a high opinion of Kreia either. Her goal was basically to kill god, after all. He'd be more likely to accept a conversation with her, however.
You are right. Kreia would never respect Joshua since he blindly follows an ideology that eventually concludes in extremism to ensure total control of its followers (and to reach said total control a lot of conflict and suffering happens to innocents and moderates), just like the Jedi Masters and the Sith Lords she despises in her home universe. I also do not remember a lot of Joshua but I do thought he was so self-righteous, somewhat hypocrite and self-absorbed, only thinking about his "redemption" that Jehovah gave him instead of trying to truly help the tribe.
I'm not terribly familiar with either character, but I did find it odd that - based on what I do know - they would end the conversation so respectfully like that. With how much they were deliberating, it sounded like they were building up to one liners before throwing down in a boss battle.
@@dutch_asocialite Truth is, Kreia wouldn't argue with Joshua for more than 2 minutes. In the game, there are exactly two people she respects. Everyone else is irrelevant in her eyes. I can imagine her telling Joshua the same thing she told Atton: "I do not have the years required nor the desire to indulge you". Joshua would be nothing to her, just one more fool blindly following the will of God.
So yeah, the whole premise of the video is most likely wrong. Hell, Kreia wouldn't even say Joshua's name. She calls Atton "The Fool", the Handmaiden "The Servant of Atris", Bao-Dur "The Alien" and Visas "The Blinded One". She'd probably call Joshua "The Burned One" or something like that.
@@scarletowl4556 Interchange God with the force. Kreia blames the force (aka God) for the shortcomings of sentient beings.
Joshua blames mankind for its own shortcomings. As such he doesn't blame God.
Kreia places the responsibility of evil on the force.
Joshua places the responsibility of evil on our choices.
Even if we take God/The Force out of the equation. Joshua is in the right here.
You should never blame something else for your own actions. Only if you are a puppet incapable of thinking and acting on your own, can you blame the force, or God. For Kreia, sentient beings are bound to the will of the force. For Joshua, mankind has a choice to make and live with the consequences of those choices.
@@RicardoSantos-oz3uj I don't think Kreia blames the Force for everything that happens in the galaxy. She always holds people accountable for their choices, and judges others harshly for their ignorance. If she truly believed there was 0 free will, she wouldn't think so little of the people around her. She also specifically says that "Revan's choices were always his own", and blames herself for all the evil she's done, which is why she makes herself the Exile's final obstacle.
What Kreia does believe is that the Force manipulates people to get the results it wants. This is actually just a fact of the universe. In one video where George Lucas explains the Force, he says that "we have a destiny and we want to follow it". Destiny. Meaning something was preordained. The Force also leads people to certain places, as it led the Exile to Dxun or Qui-Gon to Anakin. It's made clear that, while a certain amount of choice exists in Star Wars, it's always subjected to the subtle will of the Force. Remember: the Force created Anakin with a specific destiny in mind - to destroy the Sith.
And keep in mind that Kreia and Joshua live in very different universes. There is clear evidence that the Force exists and plays a role in galactic events. Joshua's god might not even exist. There is no way for him to verify whether his god manipulates anything. So yeah, it's much easier for him to say that it's all mankind's fault. He doesn't have to wrestle with the questions people in Star Wars have to deal with.
I agree with the principle that people are responsible for their choices, as would Kreia. The problem is that, at the same time, she has to come to terms with the fact that the Force is manipulating events, even if subtly, and no one really knows to what extent that manipulation goes.
We need more
I really hope a person still wrote this because this is such an awesome debate!
Brooooo, Dude!!!!! Well Flipping Done!!!!!
this is great
I ain't gonna hold you this is what a debate should be even though you do not share someone's belief or statement they should at least be respected because others would also defend their own beliefs or philosophy that they have in their life great video man.
Damn you nailed the writing for these characters
I wish deeply that this level of civil discourse was common irl. I'm an atheist in that I don't live as if there is a God, but truthfully, I don't know any more than anyone else does.
I just wish more would admit that. That they don't know for sure.
This is beautiful
I love these
You gave Joshua some really good apologetics, nice job
So good! Glory to the Lord. 🙏🏻✝️
How can I say Enlightening in any more bombastic way?! ❤ How'd you get the AI to get THIS in depth!
Besides Uriah and The Emperor of Mankind, this is one of the greatest conversations between a thiest and Gnostic I've EVER SEEN. 🧘
This was great
You just earned a new subscriber, congratulations.
Welcome aboard! Glad to have you here :)
Please. Please please please make more debates between these two
Got another one up now :) th-cam.com/video/XZw4xoN8e4I/w-d-xo.html
This is one of the most interesting videos I've ever seen
MORE! I WANT MORE!
Wow, that was pretty good.
I think the climax of Hans Zimmer's Under the Stars would have been better background music, but perhaps I think that about everything since its such a good score.
I absolutely love Joshuas points
Based and Christ pilled
Two of some of my favorite characters from two of my favorite RPGs
Made another one today :) th-cam.com/video/XZw4xoN8e4I/w-d-xo.html
Amazing 👏
Glad you think so!
You'd probably have to pick a voice since I don't know if the character has one, but I wonder what a discussion between Joshua and the Leper from Darkest Dungeon regarding compassion, suffering, and the attitude one should take in times of horror and pain would be like.
Господи, какой же сильный голос у Сары Кестельман, это интонации и фразы можно часами слушать
А Брат Джошуа? Он прекрасен
This man is a very well read one and a quite persuasive one too
God's will above all
Love Joshua Graham
May God guide your path, dear viewer.
I figured Kreia would be more adversarial here, considering that she sought the destruction of "God" in the Star Wars universe: the Force.
Indeed. I was dissapointed she was not fierce here, since she hates The Force and Jehovah would remind her of it.
I think it would be because the Force has an unknown goal, it "speaks" but only speaks about the moment or the near future rather than the grand plan or grand futures. It's vague in its actions and consequences and simply allows Sith to do as they will, occasionally sending a Jedi or someone who may end up a Jedi in their way in the possibility of stopping the sith.
Compare that to Jehovah, who doesn't entirely speak about the moment or the near future, and oftentimes speaks about a direction of where to go, what to say or who to go with or what to do, however in the end his goals are laid plain and bare to see. He doesn't shy away from saying that shits gonna hit the fan and it's gonna be a spectacle of all spectacles, and he doesn't shy away from either his followers acting against him and he doesn't hide his reaction and punishments, yet it'll still end in his end goal to creating a world where in comparison to life here and now would be a literal paradise of freedom. He gives power to those following him and strips them from anyone who abuses them for their own goals rather than his without hesitation. A far, far stark contrast with the hodgepodge of eastern ideas, mainly the mix of Taoism, Buddhism, and Zen.
@@ItsDaKoolaidDude Kreia is Nietzschean philosophy personified, the only thing she really cares about is free will. I don't think she cares whether it is the always nebulous Force or a single deity issuing commands, she despises that which undermines free will.
If Jehova "grants" free will, that means it was a right that one never truly had. The fact that all action, good or bad, serves to further the will of Jehova, puts free will into question. Kreia would seek to destroy such a being or force.
@@MrHeavy466 I'll have to point towards Joshua's point about "knowledge of the path and forcing the path are two different things"
Jehova doesn't so much as "grant" free will as he allows and gives a place to exert that free will. Not all actions really serve him, though at the moment I can't bring up the point as to what or why that is.
In the meantime, you mistake how mankind already has this "free will" when it's effects on the world is already apparent on how our "free will" detriments and causes pain and suffering at a needless and unnecessary scale: big tech companies, (Nestle/Google) politicians(Biden administration/Putin), the ideological radical(right-wing and left-liberal) as well as those who shouldn't have power over others and yet has them anyways and poorly utilizes them. If this is what counts as free will, then humanity was never free since Adam and Eve, as it only shows how we are slaves to our selfish desires more than we would consider choosing to do good, much akin to how the sith selfishly pour themselves over hate, revenge and power that they lose sight of their original goals which often times had been a more noble one.
@@ItsDaKoolaidDudethe world lies in "the wicked one." (1 John 5:19). The KJV obscures this a bit with the phrasing "the whole world lieth in wickedness." Jehovah allows Satan the Devil control of the world's powers to allow him to dig his own grave, as he claimed that creation would be better off without God's rulership. "You will be like God, knowing good and evil."
This is temporary, of course, but it does explain why the world is in such a sorry state.
Do you write these yourself? I crave these kind of philosophical debates, so I'd like some tips on where to find more
Jesus vs Kreia next
Oh boy one heck of a ride
when you think about it god is love personfide in how even in joshuas darkest moment he feels the love he has for his family burn brighter than the fire around him
Two great characters from two of Obsidian's finest.
Next time on debate battles!!!!
Two obsidian characters having such a interesting debate
After listening this, I have come to the realization that these two need a series about the two of them traveling the wasteland and latter the galaxy in a season 2. Each episode would open with them debating with one another respectfully before the episode transitions to the enemy/problem of the week episode
Stay tuned! ;) Take a peek through my most recent videos to get caught up on the story
Two characters i REALLY want to see more of.
I have to know the music that is playing in the background of this.
I'm loving the use of AI voice generator technology for philosophical debate.
Notice that the music playing here is Kreia's, not Graham's. Very tone setting detail.
Wow, I am totally speechless.
How can one do such awesome experiment? I want to test with my own AI and philosophy. Thanks!
yo give me more kreia
will upload some more soon!
Two of my favorite games
I dont know where I fall in the belief of a higher power. But I do tend to think there must be something beyond, mainly because it would be very arrogant of use to believe we have the answers to something that no one has come back to verify.
The debate of gods existence is a very old topic, one that I will not even try to pretend that I have the answer to, but the idea that people are more then just meat sacks with illogical emotions just give life a little more meaning to me.
The Chad Joshua vs The Chad Kreia
All Hail Uber-Chad Kreia.