(AI) Joshua Graham confronts Kreia on Malachor V
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
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Dive into a philosophical exchange between two iconic video game characters in this unique dialogue! Kreia from Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II (KotOR II) and Joshua Graham from Fallout: New Vegas come together in a discussion that challenges their core beliefs, with the debate unfolding on the eerie surface of Malachor V.
AI-generated dialogue brings these characters to life, with Kreia questioning the dominance of the Force and advocating for individual free will, while Joshua Graham staunchly defends the guidance and wisdom offered by a higher power.
So, don't miss out on this unique blend of Star Wars and Fallout universes colliding! Perfect for fans of deep discourse, philosophy, and character studies. Remember to like, share, and subscribe for more such AI-generated content. #Kreia #JoshuaGraham #StarWars #Fallout #AIDebate #KotORII #NewVegas #AIGenerated #aivoice
I love the idea of Joshua Graham, a normal human being with no special powers, drawing down on a space witch with three lightsabers.
with a 1911.....based
@@DaytonaRoadster
Funnily enough in old lore he might actually have a shot, since slug-throwers can be difficult for force users to block. Since if you cut them with a lightsaber they can just end up showering you in molten metal.
@@grimjoker5572 She could just set up a wall of telekinesis or something (what 40k calls a Kine Shield).
Of course a 1911 will do the job in his hands, it uses God's caliber.
@@grimjoker5572Force Telekinesis
Joshua would have been an awesome Sith master turned Jedi
Not convinced he would be a jedi in the end. Kreia was neither Jedi nor Sith. Her role in the game is to try and guide you, the player, away from a stricly binary view of the galaxy. Not her only roll of course.
He's too willing to kill. They wouldn't let him in. They'd sense the darkness and suffering in his past
@@drsatan7554 Nah, they'd also sense his desire for peace, justice, and forgiveness in his actions and for himself. In New Vegas, all it takes is a little talk to convince him to spare a violent warlord unworthy of redemption
@@bdeamon1 incorrect. He chose to enact peace with death and violence.
They'd sense that his version of peace included the deaths of those he deemed his god wants rid of
@drsatan7554 Nah, jedi are allowed to kill if there is no choice, and if they do so without hate in their heart.
One of Joshua's best quotes are "I don't enjoy killing, but when done righteously, it's just a chore, like any other."
I'm not saying he's perfect for the jedi, I'm saying he has the capacity to follow his spiritual faith and do good. And if he does that with a sci-fi religion, all the better
What I love about this is that both Joshua and Kreia are speaking from experience. Kreia knows the force through and through, but Joshua has SEEN the kind of world Kreia might create. He's lived in it, the bombs wiped out most of the grand institutions of the old world and allowed humanity to start over from scratch.
The end result? Humanity desperately looking for a higher power to lead them. Be it the the NCR and the Enclave with the ideal of America, the Mutants with the Master, or even the tribes under Caesar. He isn't just speaking from faith, he's speaking from himself. He's seen what a free and godless world looks like, and he helped bring it under the banner of the Legion. Is freedom even truly attainable if all life instinctually seeks guidance? Is snuffing out the force even worth it if something more flawed, but powerful, will simply replace it?
When Joshua said "only Lucifer deals in absolutes" I imagined Kreia's response as "we have a similar saying around here..."
So does the lord
Joshua: “Can’t the Force act as a refiner’s fire? Purging impurity and strengthening resolve?”
Kreia: “Ah but fire also destroys does it not? The Force refines yes but at what cost? It doesn’t guide us towards our destiny but forces us on a predetermined path.”
The perfect example of Anakin Skywalker who is like Joshua Graham himself. Both burned men who paid for their sins. Except Joshua realizes his sins and redeems himself. Anakin turns Vader and chooses to walk into the Dark Side
I dont see it that way... Anakin is the forces vengence on both the sith and the jedi, and he is the embodiment of them being confronted with their pride. Anakin however in the end is redeemed... So I think you pretty much were either just wrong, or moreover and likely were just intentionally misframing things to simp for your biases
@@tandavawalsh0777 Nope, Vader's "redemption" is a man without emotional education learning the simple wisdom of moving on from grief, if the price was a galaxy wide conflict, the payoff was too little too late. Imagine if every hurt man needed a massive genocide to be saved, in less than a week there be no men left to be saved.
@@cerebrustusbordungolski7183 Lol.... thats a REALLY dumb take... Vader saved the galaxy from the jedi, the sith, and themselves. Any other take-away is smooth brained loser stuff
***All while being horribly mistreated by all of them at every turn...
Even when he was doing 'wong'('evil') He was still ALWAYS in the right.... And thats what made him him. Its what made him the chosen one.... He was so committed to what was right, he would do and be and embody it at every stage, regardless of the ask, or the consequences
Purpose, and justice manifested and alive
I adore this aspect of AI generation. Excellent choice in characters, setting, and discussion.
Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed the video :)
All the crossovers we want
I would have never made the connection between those two but it makes sense when you consider that both characters were created by Chris Avellone.
The legend
There needs to be a Kreia and Gandalf AI debate. it would be so perfect. also, this video was excellent.
YES!!!
I think AI Joshua won this one. He makes a good point that the divine/force is more of a source orientation of than the suppression of free will. AI Kreia basically admitted if she were metaphorically lost in the woods, she'd rather smash her compass and find her own way out because she can't trust that magnetic north isn't leading her into a trap
I'm not sure if either really lost, as it seems the point was more to understand the other.
@Thalan79 Maybe that'd how it started, but it ended up being about the validity of following higher powers
To call God, or the force a compass is to entirely misunderstand them...
The difference between Kreia and Joshua is that Kreia knows God and the force, deeply, completely, intimately... From foundation to finish...
And Joshua just repeats what he must to survive the trials of existence.
Kreia isnt founded on distrust.... Shes founded on intimate first hand knowledge, experience, and the culmination of the two greatest attempts to understand reality harmonized(the jedi and the sith), the legacy of thousands of generations manifest and made complete.
Joshua is just... a discount Christian...(I say discount because his faith is useful only to himself, and not meaningfully realized, or even attempted to be so) clinging to beliefs that he learned from others, just to survive, and with no hope of ever knowing, being, or doing anything to change or to even matter in regards to any of it.
You reveal your biases.... You God is a liar, and mark my words.... even if he could, he would not save you
Kreia makes no (false) promises... She simply offers what noone else can... or will
The Truth(The real Most High)
Also, **as I've already alluded* to besides being a bit of a lame duck, Joshua doesnt really practice what he preaches, except when its convenient or easy....
although that has less to do with this conversation and more to do with how these ideas bear themselves out
@@tandavawalsh0777 That's a good argument, but it's based on the idea that God and the force are equal. I'm going off the parameter that neither can truly be understood, but Kreia is working with the confirmation that the Force is real, at least to a significant degree. Personally, I think Kreia's power and ego makes her believe she has a full understanding of what the force is, but that's a different argument.
The way I see it, Kreia has proof that the Force exists and uses dogma to give her galactic suicide mission purpose, when at the end of the day she's had a hard life and feels bad that a lot of other people also have it rough and thinks the Force is to blame. Maybe it is, but her conclusions lack the nuance required to decide that a force that simultaneously serves and works against her and everyone else with a pulse must be severed so that we can live in a slightly more truthful that most people won't even notice, aside the loads of people who die as a result.
On the other hand Joshua does not have the benefit of knowing if his God is real. Still he makes him real for better or worse. Like, most Christians are discount Christians in one way or another. He keeps working towards being the change he wants to see in the world and in his self. He uses old stories to guide him and refine the experiences, mistakes, and lessons he's has picked up over the years. His faith does not makes him think God will grant his wishes. He uses it to give his actions conviction and tempers them with humility and the people around him. He's not flawless of course. In the game, the player can significantly alter his philosophy. On the flip side, no matter what the player does, Kreia will always try to kill the Force.
To wrap up my muddy points, I think the fact that Joshua operates with a more flexible, but earned world view, and the fact that Kreia wants to kill the Force makes her crazier than him
@@bdeamon1 I would disagree that his world view is more earned, or that Kreias motivations are in any way a reflection of her ego in the conventional sense... I would also argue that neither is her ambition simply to sever the connection with the force(Something I think might actually be impossible) but rather to kill the living force...
Which, gets into questions about what the force really is, does it exist outside of a pseudo consciousness with a will, or is that all things we superimpose on it(Perhaps where accusing her ego of being a factor might be more pertinent)...
In a sick way, you can argue that the force created Kreia and led her to her ambitions out of a desire within itself to put itself to death...
And one final argument I will make is that the resulting reality wouldnt be slightly more truthful... It would be infinitely and totally more truthful...
And that touches on things like to kill the force you first need to understand it, then expose it, and finally.... what that would really mean or how that would really look, we cant really know....
In this way Kreia is working on faith....
But its faith in doing what she atleast believes(although.... I would argue that as close as anyone can know, she does.... shes totally neurotic and utterly consumed with figuring out and acting on what is right, as a reaction to the pain in her life and the galaxy at large... +/- the arguments about these things that the various wars brought to the forefront for her and the jedi and the sith) is right
That all said, finally.... I will grant you that there is something... broken... about her philosophy... Something missing... Something wrong...
But that doesnt make her wrong compared to other people, neither does it make her actions or her mission wrong... Rather, where she means to take things is more of a transition, or a stepping stone...
Wrong or not, liar or not, evil or not.... God is God...
and not treating Him as such must by default be wrong.
But then again, when God himself is evil, God or not... its wrong not to face Him... defiantly...
Now to get all mad monkish(although I think he was just using it as an excuse to be a man who are :-p ) .... perhaps sometimes it is right to do wrong, when it becomes both necessary and moral... even if that means paying some sorts of price.
Ultimately killing the force is wrong...
But if its so wrong, whys it feel so right XD
(.... she found a sort of loophole to 'kill' the force.... but thats like.... temporally. I dont know how things would resolve, but in the ultimate sense, if you can kill the force with a loop hole you can probably bring it back with one... something something inverted patterns yada yada or .... something smartish, or whatever 😛)
"Chaos breeds growth, order brings stagnation." Wait a minute, hasn't every technological advancement came from war and the military? Is she actually right...
Yes, yes she is. As much as i think that its overrated, fear and hunger got that part of humanity right, we dont advance out of curiosity, we advance out of fear for what we dont know, wether it be the depths of our own oceans or whats the next crime our neighbour will commit
War does not speed the development of science so much as it filters bad ideas from good ideas. There were many dozzens of applications for radio waves envisioned when the principle was first discovered; war simply proved that the best of these applications was radar and long-range communication.
Not really. Those technological "advancement" were forced because of the horrible circumstances at hand. If done in a most favorable environment, we would achieve so much more. I do believe that those same advances would still be met, maybe even quicker, if there is no conflict as large as war to consume man power and valuable resources. Just think of humanity's potential if all those resources used in pointless wars was instead used to the sole advancement of humanity. But we are a complicated being with emotions and wants so while it is quite idealistic to think of such a future, one can't help but to imagine the alternative.
@@silenthero2795 and that is the sad truth of reality, there will never be that perfect ideal society, there will never be a perfect democracy, monarchy, autocracy, or any form of government you believe in, all may start with noble intentions but inevitably greed, contempt, and arrogance take hold and they lose the appeal all too quickly, we live in a cycle of rising and falling nations, great empires rise from nothing only to be reduced to ashes.
Yes and no.despite popular belief war does not in and of itself create or advance technological progress.sure during wartime technologies can be rushed or advanced further but a constant state of war and anarchy will lead to stagnation.wars do not infact make money at least in the long term they instead drain a nation’s resources which in turn drains the very people who advance our knowledge.for societies to grow peace is what you actually need
4:06 Obiwan would be proud, Joshua! A 1911 pistol vs 3 lightsabers...
I dig this, putting Graham in the context of the KOTOR II game taking the place of Meetra Surik. It kinda makes me wish for a mod where you play through KOTOR II as Graham. Sure some of the roleplaying elements are removed, but I can imagine all those moments where you'd get a lecture from Kreia, and replace that with a deep philosophical debate between the two. Also, I would dig seeing him face off against sith with his 1911, and maybe some force powers. (He kinda gives me the vibe of a former dark jedi returned to the light.)
"Is redemption still virtuous if it's coerced?" A very good question. One Revan would have strong opinions about.
I love these conversations. It actually makes me think about things in a holistic way.
"Chaos breeds growth, order breeds stagnation."
A strong, but ill minded sentiment.
A touch of chaos breeds growth, too much chaos and it simply destroys. A touch of order give the foundation for growth, too much order suppresses and confines.
It is a balancing act of suffering and safety that makes great times and men. Too much in either direction and the yawn of the void simply opens up to swallow as many souls as it can.
You know there is something so cinematic in the idea of Joshua Graham and Kreia fighting to the death with pauses in between to argue philosophy. Kotor2 and New vegas are truly timeless classics.
Dagoth Ur and Kreia talking about how they both support the destruction of their respective established orders and their connections to the Heart of Lorkhan and the Force respectively would be awesome
Looked everywhere in core where Kreia had me being chased by just one of her lightsabers. But I could not find any empty .45ACP casings
i want to see a animated series about just this
Screw that, we need somebody to mod Joshua Graham into KOTOR 2.
@@uppishcub1617 that too
This Kreia, compared to the Shepard video, sounds younger. I like the idea that she's been dispensing wisdom to many characters over the decades.
I'd love an encounter between The Emperor of Mankind and Kriea
I’ve had a lot of requests for this! I’m not at all familiar with Warhammer lore so I’m not sure how good of a video that would turn out to be😂
@@TheCouriersGambit Gotcha. If you're looking for a good source on The Emperor, Luetin and The Amber King are great channels. Also, I'd highly recommend the video titled: The Last Church. Hope you enjoy the content. :D
@@TheCouriersGambit think of a benevolent fascist, who while he doesnt tolerant anything not human and only humans who follow his will...but he truly does believe in Human divinity and believes in the Spirt and Body of mankind
Actually given his atheism, Graham and the Emperor would be far more interesting
@@DaytonaRoadster The Emperor is great.... Violently atheistic, worshiped as a God, stuck in a pseduo dead state, holding their reality together at the cost of a thousand lives a day XD
I love Kreia's passion for free will, freedom and independence. Ironically, despite her cynicism, she has more faith in humanity than Joshua, because while he thinks we are too weak, too ignorant, to establish our own order and morals, Kreia believes in our capacity to evolve and grow stronger.
Plus, the Force is not just a guiding hand, it's a puppet master, and several of the events it helped orchestrate have led to mass death, such as leading Qui-Gon to Anakin. Blame Anakin for his fall if you must, but he only had the chance to fall because the Force led him to that point. Someone in the comments suggested that the Force / God is a compass that guides you when you're lost in a forest, and that Kreia wants to break that compass. That analogy can work, but it's important to note that the Force might not lead you to a good place, and that Kreia wants you to guide yourself by observing the world around you, by looking at the stars, reaching a vantage point so you can see where you are or learning how to build your own compass. If you don't know how to do this, and your compass breaks, you're doomed.
Joshua's faith seems deeply rooted in fear. Fear of the darkness that might come if there is no supreme being of light to guide us. Fear of what he would become if he lost the faith that convinced him to be a better man. Fear that, without God, there might be no redemption for him, after everything he's done. That seems sad to me, because Joshua can't see worth in himself or those around him without a higher power pushing us to be great. He doesn't believe in his own potential, separated from everything else. He reminds me of Hanharr, who never removes the shackles he wears because he believes he would be nothing without them. He believes himself powerless without his God, therefore he is. "Everyone is made up of events in their past, and it builds walls around one's spirit, or breaks such walls down. The mind makes some powerless and gives strength to others."
And well, if this is canon for the channel, then this is where their rivalry ends, with Joshua dead. Morals aside, one does not simply defeat a force user in combat with a gun, especially not when Kreia has stopped playing and assumed her role as Darth Traya.
Though you have to understand that physical projectiles are the greatest weakness of a Jedi or Sith. Joshua could just use a simple sniper rifle or battle rifle to completely nullify the effects of a Force Wielder’s lightsaber. Sure a Force user could try to block a bullet with a lightsaber, but the bullet itself would only become super heated and still pass through the blade of a “laser sword “ due to the speed at which it is traveling.
I honestly don’t disagree with anything that was mentioned in this video. I believe Joshua and Kreia make valid points about what they believe in. Yet if one has no personal code or belief system , except that they believe in the” free will of individuals”, I would call her completely delusional and idiotic. No person or alien can live without a belief in some form of morality and higher power like the divine ( various gods and goddesses for us mere Earthlings, the “Maker” the “Creators and “The Stone”in Dragons Age, the “Force” in Star Wars, the “Soul King” in Bleach, and so many others)
The point Joshua is making is not that people can’t have free will, it’s that free will alone is not enough there has to be some kind of moral imperative and guiding force in your life that creates the foundation for your actions, thoughts, and desires. Men without faith in anything are nothing more than beasts who claim faith is not necessary for them.
Actions must have a purpose, people must have purpose and direction, hence religion is necessary.
Kreia on the flip side believes solely in the power of secularism and society. She sees no need for a guiding philosophy or principle in the galaxy at large. She believes in the power and importance of only “the self “ and not the “higher divine forces “ to help guide her path . Now I am not saying that she is wrong in her beliefs and convictions. But the “Force” works much like Joshua’s God , it is a guide, an aid to those who can hear its call. A higher Authority to believe in than just the power of the individual. Yet Kreia staunchly denies any such authority needed to better the lives of individuals other then themselves. Thus she denies the possibility that with such faith in a higher power every thing has a greater purpose or meaning. A moral compass to guide their actions.
But like I said, I can understand both sides of this argument.
Good video, keep it up.
@@makisonoda7925 Jedi don't need lightsabers to defeat someone like Joshua. Force Choke is enough to kill them. They can also take their gun with the Force, like Vader took Han Solo's, or send them flying.
Kreia does have a personal code. If you kill random people in the game, she gets upset and scolds you. A big part of her morality is analyzing the possible consequences of your actions so you don't bring about more pain through your actions. On Korriban, she says that some people don't deserve redemption, referring to herself. She's not a moral anarchist. And just because most cultures adopt or create a religion, that doesn't mean it's necessary. If you kill the Jedi Masters, she says "this is what you have wrought. Countless muderers, slayers, assassins, born of war that has, as always, taught the wrong lesson".
It is possible to create your own moral code without believing in a god. It's a difficult and long process, but it can be done. In fact, that's what every religion does. Different religions have different beliefs. Not everyone needs faith, including me. That doesn't make us beasts. More importantly, it wouldn't make you a beast either. You can see value in yourself and create your own code without a god, you just need to value your existence for what it is, even if there is no great purpose beyond the purpose you choose for yourself. Religion helps some people, but it's not *necessary* for someone to live a good life. The moral imperatives of your life are always up to you, because you choose what you put your faith in, and having faith in yourself and your beliefs is perfectly valid.
Refusing the Force's / God's guidance does not mean caring only about yourself. There is power in conviction, yes, but also in cooperation, family, logic, etc. Even though she doesn't respect them, Kreia does recognize the value of the Exile's allies, and the value of leadership. And again, the Force is not just a guide. It manipulates events to make sure you go to certain places. It forces you to meet certain people. It punishes those who are evil in its eyes by making them ugly and making sure a Jedi gets to kill them. The Force doesn't just offer a moral code, it imposes it like a tyrant, and punishes all those who go against it.
You don't NEED a higher authority. You are enough. You can decide for yourself what is right or wrong, based on your own observation of the world. You can refine those beliefs by testing them. Kreia has more faith in humanity's potential than you or Joshua. That was my point.
I think the biggest issue in this debate is the force itself. We don't know its goals, its purpose, or its motivation. It never sent any prophets or gave instructions. It just acts as the unseen hand of fate, and occasionally gives people magic powers.
God, on the other hand, has sent many prophets which have explained in plain words what he plans to do, what he wants from us, and why he wants it. He (according to the Bible, whether or not you agree is a different matter) has our best interests at heart. His plan ends with the happily ever after of establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth and ruling forever, with death, hunger, and pain being abolished as concepts.
@@uppishcub1617 That's a fair point. The Force is an amalgam of several religions, but George Lucas didn't make it clear what it does. It seems to want balance, which, in George's eyes, means no Dark Side, but nothing beyond that. In some cases, however, it seems to lead people to the Dark Side. It's weird.
And yeah, that's what the Bible claims.
@@uppishcub1617
I can agree with that. But the Force does have a clear goal in mind. That goal is balance between the light and the dark. True balance is what the Force seeks, not total domination of the light, nor total destruction by the Darkness. True balance within the confines of the Force itself.
the point here to me is that god/force is but a torch in the darkness for it shows us the paths we can choose not which is the right one but so long as we carry the torch we can find our way towards the right path even if we made the mistake of taking the wrong one. whereas in kreias viewpoint we are to be lost, all for attaing true freedom over the paths we take so that we may find out our true selfs
I'd like to hear Joshua and Iroh in a conversation with each other. Something tells me they'd be the best of bros.
Edit: Also this conversation's existence implies that Joshua fought his way through Storm Beasts, Sith hordes, and even Darth Sion. And he's just armed with a 1911!
.......based
Weapons are part of his religion, Joshua is a Mandalorian confirmed!
With a 1911, the graces of a tough life turned benevolent, and the steadfast faith in a higher force to guide him.
need joshua to debate sion a monster like him but the opposite joshua is bruned and born a new sion is burned and the same rage and blood lust ect
Do you write your own dialogue? This is great.
Now do Joshua vs the punisher on forgiveness and second chances. Bonus points if Joshua brings up stilt man, a villain who, on his first day of being a hero, is killed by the punisher.
Can you make like Joshua Graham tells the Akatsuki from Naruto about his aware of harming everyone.
Now this is the interesting perspective of the Gray philosophy and Faith of Christianity. It's like the understanding of light and dark against the Gray area that many try to forcefully bring out. Yet, what is the difference between the supposed of Gray area and the wrong's that we choose within it?
How many times do we deceive ourselves that we are doing whats 'light' or right, only to find we were only ever justifying what was beneficial to us?
Kreia isnt gray, nor light, nor dark... She is eyes unclouded.
Something faith will never be
Joshua wins because without a calling to a higher power we have no guideline as to what we can aspire to or where we came from. When we take the decision away from god to tell us what we need to hear we only hear what we want. Therefore there is no true growth so you become stagnant thinking you are your own god. But believing you are with a higher power grants you the ability to have ENDLESS possibilities. I rather have endless possibilities then limited possibilities therefore Joshua wins
Is it really limitless possibilities though? Or does it only seem limitless from your perspective because you have no idea what the higher power you believe in has decided for you?
If a higher power has chosen a predetermined path for you, it is by definition absolutely limited. You only percieve it as limitless, because you don't know what that path is.
Balance has constant growth ,force seek guides away from Self-destruction .Absolute freedom would remove people become animals creatures consumed by smaller nature .
Joshua has the power of God and his caliber on his side
Once again I think Kreia backs out too quickly in this conversation and is a little too meek.
I feel like the real Kreia would be much more merciless towards Joshua's views and would mock him horribly. Kreia would almost burst out laughing a humorless laugh when Joshua starts talking about his belief in god, and would be frustrated at his naivety with the force.
After all, this conversation can be played in a way in the game if the player follows the light side of the path and defends their beliefs on good against Kreias skepticism. The difference is that Kreia utterly crushes any notion of "good" in the force as pure manipulation that leads to more harm and ripple effects. The force especially is something Kreia despises and if Joshua defended it Kreia would probably call him a fool and attack.
Assuming she wanted to change Joshuas viewpoint like the exile's, she would probably use many of the same arguments she does in the game. Things like how "good" jedi keep falling to the dark side and cause untold destruction and the self destructiveness of blind altruism. "Slave morality" as Nietzsche put it.
Agreed. She would much more likely talk to him like she spoke to Mandalore or to Atris. Or simply find a way to use him for her own needs like with Hanharr.
I side with Joshua on this
Someone needs to animate this into an actual fight with SFM or something.
Someone make a SFM of this please
The only issue is that the Force does not behave in anyway to a divine force or similarity to God. God gives power to those who follow or believes in him, yet strips power from those who would use his name and will for selfish purposes.
The Force does not, it gives power to anyone with the right conditions at birth, even those who would have lived better without it in the first place. The Jedi try to set the right mindset to live and use the Force, yet one look at the jedi order in both KOTOR and the sequels tells you that such purpose festers in time and the leaders then start to take a selfish route in their "mindset", becoming a cult rather than remaining on the path.
The living force resides in all things but only some can manipulate it. The cosmic force has a plan just like god
The Cosmic force has never commanded anyone to kill innocent children
Remember that Graham is a religious person. He therefore relies upon the teachings of the religion he has been taught and that he believes in wholeheartedly.
Should he deny his god and become like Kreia ?
He denies his God when its convenient all the times XD
@@tandavawalsh0777
If you read the Biography for Graham, you’ll know that while he committed innumerable acts of atrocities, he eventually reconciled with his family and his religious convictions. It didn’t absolve him of any wrongdoing or hatred towards him. It simply lead him to a different path in life.
@@makisonoda7925 "reconciled with his family" literally everything you just said about him is like... reading a book for toddlers... "He put his pants on and went outside and the sun was shining..."
Wtf is your f cking point?
** He still kills people whenever its convenient... He still longs for vengeance after the white legs attack. Hes not a good guy. He just tells fancy lies with neurotic consistency cause thats the only way he can tolerate life and cope with who he is
dude, what is the name of this AI voice program?
In the wilderness we will find our true selves, and there are 2 "selves"
Sheep, and Wolves.
Joshua 1 - Kreia 0
I have to disagree, his entire argument hinges on the baseline that people *need* higher powers and gods or else it all falls apart, but even in our world we've seen that's just not the case. Not to mention he believes the force is basically his god in this universe, but this isn't true as the force is very hands on and guides events in star wars. Kreia could also call out Joshua on his immense hubris "Your god? What of the other thousands of gods on thousands of worlds in thousands of galaxies? Why is this one yours and only yours? Do you truly believe with such blind righteousness it is yours and yours alone? You are a tourist here, nothing more."
Yeah.... Not how I read this, but *shrug* Kreia could have made her cases better.... But even making her cases poorly, if she didnt win, she definitely didnt lose
@@tandavawalsh0777 ofc, I'm just saying that Joshua had better arguments
Lol the end was perfect
Do Joshua Graham and Max Payne conversation.
A gunslinger vs a swordswoman. I want to see this fight….
Do one with Kreia and Lorgar (Warhammer 40k)
Would you do Kreiya and MCU Thanos discussing balance
The problem there is Thanatos is like "Everything would be better with like half the people"
Kreia *shrug* "You could be right"
Of course.... shed actually question him and encourage him to consider whatever he might not have.... but I doubt shed mind XD
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Romans 1: 18-20
Oh, the wisdom of Kreia.
Kreia dodging questions.
Another good one and a hell of a fight to watch!
that ending lmao
An ex morman vs a gnostic. Their completely fundamentally different in stance on religion and higher power. yet because of the fact that both come from a side that is created thru personal enlightenment they duel each other perfectly and with honesty as both had a similar path to where they are now
I would love to see this fight. Could see it going either way. Joshua is just enough of a beast, plus his bullets would actually be a danger to Kreia. Since if she stopped them with the lightsaber, she would get hit will now molten bullets.
Would be a cool fight! If Graham were in the Star Wars universe, he would totally be a Mando
Don't force users have a constant force shield, usually to defend against the force? Always wondered if that could fend off tiny molten bullet splats. :p
@@DinkLover69 I think some had the shield up, but it seemed mostly designed to deal with force based attacks. Force pushes and attempts to take their weapons, that sort of thing. In legends, it seemed like slugthrowers (AKA gun) did work against them decently well.
I think, even as they fight, the real battle still be with their words and ideals.
The only way Joshua lasts more than .5 seconds is LOTS and LOTS of plot armor... Or maybe divine intervention XD
Your writing here is brilliant and it's execution, a work of art.
"Only Lucifer deals in absolutes", Episode 3 reference aside, has he ever read the Bible? God makes it pretty damn clear he's the only absolute lol
Jesus: "If you are not with me then you are against me"
Obi-Wan: "only a sith deals in absolutes"
The Bible portrays complex interactions between God and humanity that involve elements like divine guidance, free will, mercy, justice and relational dynamics. The story of Jonah demonstrates God's mercy towards a repentant yet nonbelieving Nineveh, which goes beyond a strict absolutist approach. Similarly, in Daniel 4:34-37, Nebuchadnezzar acknowledges God's power while still worshiping other gods.
In the story of the Roman centurion Matthew 8:5-13, Jesus heals the centurion's servant despite the centurion's gentile background. The centurion's faith and recognition of Jesus' authority demonstrate that God's grace isn't confined by religious boundaries. Similarly, the story of the Canaanite woman Matthew 15:21-28 sees Christ respond to her plea for her daughter's healing, despite her identity as a gentile with her own gods. These events underline the concept that God's mercy extends beyond cultural and religious affiliations and emphasize the intricate nature of God's relationship with creation, where His absoluteness coexists with diverse interactions.
Also tbf to Joshua here, Lucifer approaches God and challenges Job's righteousness. He suggests that Job's devotion is solely due to the blessings he receives, implying that if those blessings were taken away, Job would fore swear God. This presents a black and white absolutist view of human behavior, assuming that people's actions are solely determined by their circumstances. Sorry for the essay btw😂
@@drsatan7554 The phrase so often quote mined, 'if you are not with me you are against me,' comes from Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23. What's ignored just before the phrase is actually said however is that, Jesus heals a blind and mute man, and the crowds are amazed, wondering if He might be the Messiah. The Pharisees, however, wrongly attribute His power to demons. Jesus challenges their flawed reasoning, highlighting the inconsistency in their argument and the impossibility of Satan to be working against himself. This is quite different from Obi-Wan's self refuting response to Anakin in Star Wars, where the context is about a personal choice and a sense of betrayal. Context matters in understanding these statements.
@@jameswitt108It's all good lol I do have one question though
Doesn't the line, "Thou shalt not worship any false idols or graven images" entirely rule out the worshipping of other gods?
And frankly, Job just makes God look like a tyrant who will let whatever happens happen because he's God and he says so. Not exactly compelling evidence to worship him. What would have happened if he told Lucifer to go away? Not much. According to him, he's God and can do anything, so just say "not today Satan" and let Job be happy. Otherwise Job better hope his kids were good enough to get into heaven. Frankly, God's mercy seems at the very best, fickle. Too many examples of him just doing whatever he wants whenever and saying it's all according to plan. I'd really rather not worship someone like that.
@@TrueKilljoy Thanks bro, there are instances where God allows and acknowledges the existence of other gods worshiped by the nations. While you're entirely correct that God repeatedly emphasizes monotheism and the worship of Him alone specifically in regards to the covenant system he sets up for the ancient Israelites, there are moments when He acknowledges the gods worshiped by other nations like in Deuteronomy 32:8-9.
Tbh I used to be deeply troubled by Job until I delved into the scholarship both secular and religious and while I won't touch on the debate on whether Job is a work of fiction or literal history note that some scholars have argued that it was just composed as an ancient work of fiction and not history akin to Jesus's parables like the Good Samaritan meaning it is a story for teaching purposes and not a literal historical occurence, it's an interesting debate but besides the point. Although Job is a good moral person he's presented as having a warped view of God which distanced him from God in that he was lost in moralism, the idea that one can earn their way into God's grace and blessings through moral deeds. With regards to Satan here, pop culture has really warped the traditional biblical understanding of the story of Job and doesn't build a cumulative case of any character in the story, God in tradition is omnipotent and omniscient, he could absolutely be rid of Satan here for example He restrains Satan from taking Job's life and finally restores Job to his previous state at the end of the story showing his power but scholars hold that God here had a good reason to allow what happened to Job, which was to get him to realize that he was lost in himself. I mean take a step back and really think about how nonrealistic Job's initial statements are after losing so much, Job oscillates between a weird robotic praise for God like saying the Lord gives and the Lord takes away as opposed to the normal human lamentation at suffering and once he becomes fully miserable at his lowest point Job extolls his own virtues talking about how he is pure, generous, truthful and how he abstained from all kinds of vices like greed or revenge etc which I've always interpeted him as virtue signaling as at no point in his statements does he mention his faith or trust in God yet he clearly shows he has faith in his own works which should have delivered him. Quite reminiscent of American style prosperity Gospel now that I think about it ie: a good god + g ood works= a good life. Job doesn't even hint at a possibility of imperfection on his side and as long as Job played by the rules, God was expected to bless him.
Finally it's actually right that you don't worship God based on the narrative found in the book of Job as it is not written to the nonbeliever but those who claim to follow God like Job, it's not meant to give the nonbeliever evidences or reasons to worship of which they are a plethora of those but my essays gotten too long and I don't wanna come across as if I'm talking down to you. Thanks for expanding on your perspective btw, I disagree of course but I get where you're coming from and I'm glad you engaged with me.👍
If I had the ability to make a kotor 3 I'd definitely hire you to write the dialog if you wrote this!
That is the biggest compliment anyone could give me haha! I don’t write all the videos on my channel but I did write this one :)
@@TheCouriersGambit this is incredible mate! I'll never get sick of these videos!
Confronting Kreia is confronting yourself.
Joshua Graham is hope, Kreia is truth
These are very fun to watch baked
Kreia won this easily here. It doesn't matter if your "potential is shaped into greatness" if you're just a puppet being moved around by strings, orchestrated by some higher being. No more heroic than the deeds achieved by an action figure when a child swings it through the air to defeat the other toys. It's all fake. Nothing to truly take credit for, nor to be blamed for. Empty. Meaningless. That's why free will matters, because even if we fail and fall into chaos, at least it was by our own choices and decisions, rather than our limp unconscious bodies being swung around on strings to appear to be achieving greatness.
In yet, if Anakin and Luke's story is anything to go by, the Force does allow for an element of free will. It allowed the former to fall short of his destiny by choosing to follow the dark side while the latter chose the opposite and inspired his father to choose repentance back to the light side. Through the cave of Dagobah and leading him to Obi Wan and Yoda, it also provided Luke with a guiding hand that he chose to follow, while warnings from those same two did nothing to dissuade Anakin. Either way, there was both a guiding hand coupled with a choice on whether to follow it.
This is the problem with Kreia's understanding of the force (and it should be said, many people understanding of God's providence): she's treating choice and guidance as absolute opposites when it is fully possible to offer people a directions while also allowing them to choose not to follow said directions.
@@morgant.dulaman8733 No. Anakin falling to the dark side was part of the Force's plan. All of it went exactly as the Force intended, all of that pain and suffering was decided by the Force itself as what should happen. People like Anakin were simply given a doomed fate as disposable pawns in its grand plan. And that is yet another example of why Kreia was right to want to kill the Force.
@@cleverman383 That goes against what we know from either the novels or the movies. In the novels, especially Plagueis, it was specifically mentioned that the force created Anakin in response to the Sith meddling with the middiclorians in an attempt to take power over the force itself. The "balance" Anakin was to create, as per Lucas' vision, was always to destroy the Sith and the influence the Dark Side. That he failed and in both continuities (original EU and Disney's "canon") the Sith survived in the form of either Darth Krayte or Snoke and it took another generation to put them down shows he had a degree of free will. Meanwhile, the force could still provide a means to destroy the Sith in spite of that failure, be it Cade Skywalker or Rey Not-Skywalker.
Hence, we can determine that in Star Wars, there's a balance (no pun intended) in the force's ability to move events toward a certain outcome while still granting individual beings a means to shape their own lives, not dissimilar to the Christian concept of divine providence and election vs free will.