Would be interesting to see a game where each person tries to build a deck with cards they rated c or lower. Then have a Commander Clash Episode where they possibly re-evaluate cards. Always nice seeing a second opinion
Let me summarize the "Blue Board Wipes" arguments: Richard: Blue sucks at doing this - C Crim: Instant speed - B; Otherwise - C Seth: Fringe playables are a B Tomer: Whatever Richard said +1
@@modernminded5466 instant speed on effects like that are huge because it lets you replay a board first, and there are some fringe sea creature things to where its not normally relevant, but sometimes it is.
I've realized that their tier sets are off at least Crim and Richard see cards that are good in specific decks as C tier rather than B as is described. Maybe they should change their rankings to: S - 'Auto Include' A - Great Card, options to pick from when slots are limited B - Good, maybe more budget, fits in most decks C - Conditional, sits in specific decks great, or maybe a very budget option D - Don't Play
This is why most draft tier lists have a separate indicator (or even a second grade), for when (you are doing this 1 strategy, then its an S). So you would rank the card normally, D, then give it a second rank for that specific deck/strategy. In a kraken deck its an S. outside of kraken, its a D/C
Richard: B is a card that's good in a specific deck. Tomer: Whelming Wave is a 10/10 in Sea Monster decks and pretty efficient in other Mono U Decks. Richard: That's a C.
Also I think Whelming wave is actually good outside of sea monsters. Blue Green Landfall love this card. It works great because you can ramp and bounce on your turn because of the low CMC.
I think a niche card that goes in one deck can only be a B if that deck is actually good, otherwise you can come up with a restrictive enough deck building constraint for literally anything
*Crim on Flood of Tears* "I'm not spending 6 mana on my turn if I'm not killing you, even if I put something into play. C" *Crim on Crush of Tentacles* "If I Surge this I get an 8/8, that's pretty relevant. B" Lol what?
"I'd play this in a multi color deck that has an ETB style effect." Then why not Flood of Tears? It's almost strictly better at that point. There's some massive incongruity here, I can see both being C's or B's together, but not one C and one B, just doesn't add up.
@@rings-cn1yn Doesn't actually cost 5 because you have to cost something else. And will only cost 5 if you're spending Mana which means it's not a good top deck or bad if you can't cast something that's really cheap.
I've never once considered curse of the swine as a board wipe. I think most people play it as good targeted removal, and it does fill that role very well.
@@singularleaf3895 I think that's somewhat fair, but I'd even say 2 good targets is worth compared to the competition. Exile is very nice, and the 2/2 doesn't tend to be a problem (look at beast within for a comparison), however it obviously does have the "creatures only" weakness. Sorcery speed really drags it down tho, I can really imagine a lot of use this would have at instant speed
I'm with Crim on Consuming Tide. When you're in last place, this is a board wipe that will draw you three cards for 4 mana, which is insane. It won't engender as much annoyance as a regular wrath, and even if it "just" cantrips it's still a wrath that cantrips. That's bonkers.
Oof. This team does not play enough tempo to see how good these cards are. I agree with crim that bounce is underrated. Blue often doesn’t need anything but time. And full graveyards these days are too often worse than everyone’s hands being full of things they need 3 turns to play again
Card shop employee here. Tomer, you got a few people to buy fade aways, I hope youre happy. I read it cause I had to pull it from inventory and had never seen it before. My first reaction was "seems deec"
"There are very few blue token decks" Top 3 mono blue commanders: 1. Urza - makes construct token 2. Orvar - makes token copies 3. Talrand - makes drake tokens Also #6 is Minn, a token deck.
Orvar is a combo deck that makes tokens along the way to combo killing you. It's like saying thassa consultation is a devotion deck because along the way to the combo kill it checks devotion. Urza is an artifact deck that makes a construct on etb along the way to staxing you out with winter orb and trinisphere while using urza to dodge those effects or polymorphing the constructs to get a hullbreaker. The token matters but you lose to urza because he can ramp in blue, stax you out and make use of unused mana to wheel with his effect. The actual token deck is talrand because you cast spells, make drakes and your wincon is drake beats. It's how superfriends atraxa isn't a counter deck because you double the counters on your planeswalkers with doubling season before ulting and shitting on people, but your end goal is the planeswalkers and the counters are just a side note along the way.
at this point i enjoy the podcasts waaay more than the actual clashing on. you always have such an interesting conversation and i've learned a lot about edh
Started playing spectral deluge and have been very impressed so far. It's asymmetrical, and I usually end up foretelling it early game, then getting a blowout with it way later. I had a particularly impressive showing of it where I was able to bounce my opponents boards and pass with 6 mana open for a gather specimens, they played a big threat to lure out the counterspell, but ended up loosing their whole rebuilding turn and giving me that threat. It was brutal.
Hot Take: Whelming Wave is really, really good outside of just sea monster tribal, as a 4 mana bounce everything spell. It's a sorcery speed evacuation! It's like a blue wrath of god (which I still hold is worse than cards like Cleansing Nova)!!
Aetherize and aetherspout are great because I often find that you only need to board wipes when 1 person is really far ahead. If multiple people are ahead of you, they usually just have to deal with eachother and aren't usually threatening you.
Sad River's Rebuke is never talked about. You hit the scariest player and the other players do the job of hurting them for you while they rebuild, and you continue on your day. Mainly use it in spellslinger and storm type decks because if you copy it, the control player can't stop every wipe coming (more often than not) and you get to have fun stack interactions
I know I’m really late to the party, but I have seen Spectral Deluge put in work for my buddies mono blue deck. Although it doesn’t have a body to flicker like Scourge of Fleets it is cheaper to cast and can be potentially cast for 3 mana if you foretell it on a previous turn.
I personally LOVE Fade Away. As someone who has a Krenko Mob Boss in their playgroup, Having a boardwipe on 3 that threatens to either totally clear board, or Armageddon the aggro player, the benefit cannot be overstated. And later in the game, You can just pay the extra mana to save several of your creatures while everyone else is forced to lose resources. It's like Curse of Swine, but where Curse counts up creatures to remove, Fade Away counts down creatures to save, which is much more valuable in multiplayer.
What Richard keeps doing is ranking blue board wipes against other colors board wipes. Obviously, black and white board wipes are far superior to blue (barring Cyclonic Rift), which is why the fact that he keeps ranking blue waves against other colors it’s so frustrating and unfair
Spectral Deluge is a great option, especially with the foretell discount. Also Aethergale is decent and kinda like Curse of Swine where it's multi-targeted removal.
Content creators should really remember most people won't spend 30 USD per card. EDHREC doesn't always represent the deck, but rather decks mid-brew before the checkout price pops-up :D
Not only for "sea creature tribal". If your commander has one of those types, those sweepers are very playable. No tribal synergy beyond that is needed to get value. If the creature type was too common, such as "warrior", it would be worse a sweeper.
I'll say this about Aetherspouts, you don't have to be on the receiving end of an attack, if your opponents are attacking each other it still applies, you can use this card politically as well to save an opponent.
Curse of the swine is ridiculously powerful as far as giving blue to multiple target exile effect. Gets rid of eldrazi and indestructible creatures and at the small cost of giving them a 2/2 token.
One you missed that I have really enjoyed is Spectral Deluge. It is super cheap and normally hits the entire board while leaving my creatures alone. But just in Mono Blue. I run it in my Wizards and Merfolk decks. PLUS it's cheap to buy a few copies of. (I know Engulf the Shore is similar and Instant speed, but I like being able to Foretell and play later especially since I'm drawing a lot of cards and don't always have one of my max hand size effects out early). Still probably B tier, but one to consider.
Scourge of fleets is an easy A for me. Even if you only have 3 or 4 islands you can get most of the board which you should be able to hit easily in even 2 color decks. Obviously not as powerful, but it occupies the same spot in my mind as elesh norn.
curse of the swine is underrated in this video. It deals with threats permanently, it's asymmetrical, and you don't have to make enemies with everyone at the table because you can choose to only target the most threatening creatures, stabilizing the board state without making yourself the table nemesis for all three other players. Literally none of the other board wipes on this list and generally other board wipes in other colors dont have this flexibility.
Wash Out is a Painter's Servant combo! 2 card upheaval is incredibly strong and warrants at least a mention, even if you do not think it's a fun combo. It even gets fetched by the same mono-blue tutors that work with scepter + reversal
The whelming wave conversation made me so mad. They define B tier as "really good in the right deck" and then say "it's bad because it's only good in one deck!"
Kenderek leviathan for me is a B, almost A. You have at least 2 uses, works wonders with copy effects, and as a creature it's relative easy to cheat into play.
Extremely well-timed video for me personally, since I just built my first mono-blue deck recently. For researching that deck, I discovered a lot of these, and this discussion helped me frame my inclusions and cuts. I happen to be leaning way towards sea monsters, so Tomer has my full support of the cards that tend to help those out, particularly Scourge of Fleets :) which is a new favorite of mine.
I was somewhat expecting Aether Gale were here, as returning 6 permanents to their owners hand is close enough to a board whipe and I always found it kind of underrated as it alwasy performs great when I play it, as it can be very selective by not returning certain things (to not help recycle an opponents ETB) and be as one sided as can be, or even help you recycle your ETBs, like recurring an E. witness over and over to control the board.
I will always defend the curse of the swine. As a pet card, it is so unexpected from a simic deck that hordes mana from a horizon stone or a kruphix. Add in the seedborn muse/leyline of anticipation/"our" turn combo, and it's just buckets of fun.
Most board wipes are sorcery speed and don’t exile so don’t agree with the argument for giving curse of the swine a C, also didn’t they all say last time they don’t care about a 3/3 for the beast within cards? So that doesn’t match
What I like about crush of tentacles that didn't really get mentioned here, is that the surge cost becomes MORE relevant the more of these symmetrical board unsummons you play, cause it gives you back your cheap permenants. So it weirdly gets better the more of these cards in this tier list gets played together.
I play Wave in my Dimir Zombies deck for fun and having Rot-Tide Gargantua on the board when this resolves is so satisfying. I have a ZOMBIE KRAKEN and the rest of the board just turned to rubber...
Whelming Wave: good in any deck with a sea monster commander that attacks, good in UGx ramp, good in low board presence decks (durdle, some combo), and even better if the deck dabbles in tempo. Oh, and... Good in sea monster tribal!!!
Curse of the Swine is better than haters realize, especially if you have access to decent amounts of mana. I like it in Simic a lot, it's a great one-sided Wrath effect there, where you need to keep your value-weenies alive for your engine to work, yet need to exile people's creatures to get rid of things permanently. Now, it does have drawbacks, but you can only ask so much for a selective board wipe in mono-Blue. I think it feels pretty bad a 1 creature, but feels good already at 3 targets, provided they all mattered, and when your deck can tap for obscene levels of mana reliably this gets pretty brutal. Even value weenies can potentially deal with 2/2s. I run it and Mass Manipulation in Simic lands, with The Great Aurora as a green wipe. Exile is a very big buff over Destroy in most cases, so I like Curse over Pongify, and would probably cut one of Pongify's two versions (which I do in Talrand actually, huh). Aetherize is a good wipe, but Aetherspouts hits so much harder. You usually can't put more than 1 or 2 creatures on top, and their Commander is usually going back to the CZ for good measure. It's one of the most brutal wipes vs certain decks, and it's part of why my Meren deck doesn't like attacking much.
Not mentioning the Kederekt Leviathan and it's joyous interaction with Necromancy making a repeatable 3cmc instant speed reset that can only be stopped w/ graveyard hate or a counterspell seems wrong. Not mono-blue but can be a game ender in many tables.
I’ve played dev tide in temur lands to great effect. You don’t care about your non-lands and you run enough blue fetches + other ways to get mystic sanctuary into play and bounce it back to hand that you can pretty much repeatedly instant speed wipe for 2 once per turn cycle.
Yeah, Devastation Tide is better than this video acknowledges. It's mediocre if you don't have enablers, but solid if you do. What other card can bounce everything at instant for two mana?
Crush of tentacles is actually busted in cheerios storm decks with a mill sub-theme. In my Emry deck, it's draw 8 cards because Altar of dementia plus 3-6 storm count for cards like mind's desire and brain freeze. And it fuels treasure cruise and dig through time randomly.
Wait, how did they miss rivers rebuke? I think pantsing one opponent a lot of the time is a really good thing; sometimes better than a true wipe. You deal with the problem player, AND have 2 other players incentivized to swing at them instead of you... Being a red player definitely has taught me the value of using your opponents as damage spells.
Honestly I've had incredible success with a card named Aether Gale. 3UU sorcery that lets you unsummon 6 nonland permanents. There are times where that cost lets me bounce every threat and then some, while leaving my own boardstate intact.
Perplexing test, any deck that makes tokens when you cast instant/sorcery (about 3 legendaries and 9 or more non-legendaries) so its great. Just requires you to build for it.
Consuming tide at least B. 4 mana (before reductions) doesn't bounce my best thing, and draws up to 3 cards. It can literally be just a harmonize. And its still a harmonize.
For those that don’t know I’m card games, if an effect sends a card back into the deck, we call it a “spin” So aetherize, isn’t a bounce, which y’all pointed out but never could find the word for what it does It’s called a “spin” Spinning cards back into the deck, imo, is the best type of removal in any card game
Fade Away is pretty gas in blue based decks like Minn or Dennick where it doubles value as a sac outlet and your colour identity doesn't allow for many other options. Far and away the best common-wipe for pauper commander too. Outside of that though it's alright, you're mostly playing it for dank edge case reasons.
I love flood on storm decks like jhoira weatherlight captain You can float mana bounce everyting and redeploy all your low cost artifacts You can put back an aetherflux or jhoira herself to keep storming :)
@@lorpuz4664 I used to play it in standard with war of the spark ugin and a bunch of 2 mana etb draw artifacts to churn through the deck (war ugin lets you cast them again for free). Another deck was with war nissa and spark doubles to generate insane amounts of mana potentially casting multiple tears per turn. The nissa lands also stay on the board able to attack.
Honestly, I feel that clash could be improved by returning to the old ban list. I loved the series for highlighting some more obscure cards and really making the deck construction work with the restrictions. Now all the deck's have the same backbone of staples and is less inivitive
Could you all do an episode highlighting Underplayed Artifacts with potentially High Ceilings? I'll start: Thran Lens - Turns off Protection which is overlooked
There are around 1,300 legal commanders and then infinite ways to build each one, but Crim evaluates every card on the basis of his only decks and play style. Flood of Tears got a great assessment from Seth followed by Crim “I’m not tapping out”, despite the fact Omniscience would allow him to tap out and still play all his instants. Sometimes a bit 1 dimensional.
The idea that Engulf the Shore is too inconsistent in a blue heavy deck like U/G or U/B Sea Creatures is freaking wild. Got 38 lands and like 25 of them are islands, idk why Richard is saying it's inconsistent.
I agree that Engulf is much better than Richard rates it, but he's right that he cuts basics a lot in monocolor decks. lu xun - 20 island oswald fiddlebender - 8 plains rionya - 15 mountains
@@poipoi9816He definitely does, but Oswald might be an outlier. There's so many artifact centric lands and that deck's demand for white mana is probably very low with how many cards there are that don't need white mana at all.
Flood of Tears makes Yarok happy as can be. Resets your ETBs, lets you clean up then drop Yarok back out for max value next turn, and you have an outstanding blocker if anyone rebuilds with haste.
Two of the top three mono blue commanders (Talrand and Orvar, the non-token being Urza) make a bunch of tokens. Seems like there would be enough token decks for perplexing test to be viable.
kinda surprised ixidron isn't on this. It's very niche, but it uniquely fills that niche and it very much improves many problematic boardstates. while not technically a sweeper, I, at the very least, count its effect among them.
Crim talking about consuming tide feels like another version of "Are we 5-0 Split good?" Like, he will play it and tell the archenemy that "See, I helped you, now they are defensless, get them!"
One other strike against Consuming Tide is that you make your choice first and then everyone else can choose to keep whatever is best against your choice.
I think people are forgetting how few sweepers there are in green and red. Red has Blasphemous act, chain reaction, and Chandra ignition. Maybe you count star of extiction but its crazy expensive. And green has the 1 that makes 4/4 beasts to fight everything. And its pretty bad. Notice I didn't include mizzium mortar. Otherwise its just x spells which are pretty bad.
Scourge of fleets is straight broken in orvar. Every time iv dropped it iv won because it wipes the board and gives you a repeat wipe at instant speed to keep the board clear.
Would be interesting to see a game where each person tries to build a deck with cards they rated c or lower. Then have a Commander Clash Episode where they possibly re-evaluate cards. Always nice seeing a second opinion
I agree it'd be cool to see decks to confirm/discuss these
You'd see a lot more sea monsters decks lol
Please do this!
Yes please! +1
Yeeeeeeeeeessssssss!
Seth: "it's not that bad"
Richard: "D"
Crim: "if it was only instant speed"
Jack Reacher: "why don't you guys like this card!?"
Let me summarize the "Blue Board Wipes" arguments:
Richard: Blue sucks at doing this - C
Crim: Instant speed - B; Otherwise - C
Seth: Fringe playables are a B
Tomer: Whatever Richard said +1
Should have talked about Ixidron. It is a pretty good board control. It doesn't wipe but does turn everything to 2/2's.
and it is not an etb. it is a replacesment. also they did not talk about cyclone summoner
My brain literally shut down for a second when Crim shifted Whelming Wave to C. Literally the definition of a B card (on their list)
I don't understand why it's voted lower than Evacuation. Is there some hefty sea-creature problem in edh, or something?
Koma says hi
@@modernminded5466 instant speed on effects like that are huge because it lets you replay a board first, and there are some fringe sea creature things to where its not normally relevant, but sometimes it is.
The best commander podcast, I just wish these were more frequent 😭
I've realized that their tier sets are off at least Crim and Richard see cards that are good in specific decks as C tier rather than B as is described. Maybe they should change their rankings to:
S - 'Auto Include'
A - Great Card, options to pick from when slots are limited
B - Good, maybe more budget, fits in most decks
C - Conditional, sits in specific decks great, or maybe a very budget option
D - Don't Play
The letters even fit.
A- almost
B- budget
C- conditional
D- don't play
@@k9commander
S - $
This is why most draft tier lists have a separate indicator (or even a second grade), for when (you are doing this 1 strategy, then its an S).
So you would rank the card normally, D, then give it a second rank for that specific deck/strategy. In a kraken deck its an S. outside of kraken, its a D/C
@@k9commander s - surely
Richard: B is a card that's good in a specific deck.
Tomer: Whelming Wave is a 10/10 in Sea Monster decks and pretty efficient in other Mono U Decks.
Richard: That's a C.
Also I think Whelming wave is actually good outside of sea monsters. Blue Green Landfall love this card. It works great because you can ramp and bounce on your turn because of the low CMC.
@@PatNave_ Definitely agree
I feel like they never stick with the defined definition of their tier list criteria but I mean it's still interesting
I think a niche card that goes in one deck can only be a B if that deck is actually good, otherwise you can come up with a restrictive enough deck building constraint for literally anything
I think “one archetype” would be a better category than “one deck”
*Crim on Flood of Tears*
"I'm not spending 6 mana on my turn if I'm not killing you, even if I put something into play. C"
*Crim on Crush of Tentacles*
"If I Surge this I get an 8/8, that's pretty relevant. B"
Lol what?
"I'd play this in a multi color deck that has an ETB style effect."
Then why not Flood of Tears? It's almost strictly better at that point. There's some massive incongruity here, I can see both being C's or B's together, but not one C and one B, just doesn't add up.
Crush of Tentacles to get an 8/8 costs 5, not 6, that's a big difference.
@@rings-cn1yn Doesn't actually cost 5 because you have to cost something else. And will only cost 5 if you're spending Mana which means it's not a good top deck or bad if you can't cast something that's really cheap.
I've never once considered curse of the swine as a board wipe. I think most people play it as good targeted removal, and it does fill that role very well.
I always treated as such, with the idea of it NEEDS to hit atleast 3 good targets to be worthwhile.
@@singularleaf3895 I think that's somewhat fair, but I'd even say 2 good targets is worth compared to the competition. Exile is very nice, and the 2/2 doesn't tend to be a problem (look at beast within for a comparison), however it obviously does have the "creatures only" weakness.
Sorcery speed really drags it down tho, I can really imagine a lot of use this would have at instant speed
I'm with Crim on Consuming Tide. When you're in last place, this is a board wipe that will draw you three cards for 4 mana, which is insane. It won't engender as much annoyance as a regular wrath, and even if it "just" cantrips it's still a wrath that cantrips. That's bonkers.
As someone who actually plays consuming tide, I second this
Oof. This team does not play enough tempo to see how good these cards are. I agree with crim that bounce is underrated. Blue often doesn’t need anything but time. And full graveyards these days are too often worse than everyone’s hands being full of things they need 3 turns to play again
Wash Out is really good in my Rashmi "Anti-Fun" deck. It literally sends opponents back into the stone age.
No mention of Spectral Deluge!
Shame! Card is underrated.
It's soooo good! Surprised they didn't mention it.
I didn't know of that one, it's sorcery Scourge of Fleets that you can cast for way cheaper. I like it a lot!
Card shop employee here. Tomer, you got a few people to buy fade aways, I hope youre happy. I read it cause I had to pull it from inventory and had never seen it before. My first reaction was "seems deec"
"There are very few blue token decks"
Top 3 mono blue commanders:
1. Urza - makes construct token
2. Orvar - makes token copies
3. Talrand - makes drake tokens
Also #6 is Minn, a token deck.
Exactly what I was thinking. Sai also has decent representation.
Man, I completely went blank on blue tokens, but this was eye opening.
Yeah and then we have Adrix and Nev in simic, Riku of two reflections in temur, Alela in esper, and Brudiclad as they mentioned.
Orvar is a combo deck that makes tokens along the way to combo killing you. It's like saying thassa consultation is a devotion deck because along the way to the combo kill it checks devotion. Urza is an artifact deck that makes a construct on etb along the way to staxing you out with winter orb and trinisphere while using urza to dodge those effects or polymorphing the constructs to get a hullbreaker. The token matters but you lose to urza because he can ramp in blue, stax you out and make use of unused mana to wheel with his effect. The actual token deck is talrand because you cast spells, make drakes and your wincon is drake beats. It's how superfriends atraxa isn't a counter deck because you double the counters on your planeswalkers with doubling season before ulting and shitting on people, but your end goal is the planeswalkers and the counters are just a side note along the way.
@@lordofgarbageprogenitoroft4147 I wasn't aware there was only one way to build these decks, thanks for the heads up
Nobody:
Tomer: YEAH BUT IN SEA MONSTERS!
“So you’re just playing it as a 7-mana asymmetrical boardwipe?”
Cyclonic rift is also a 7 mana asymmetrical boardwipe.
at this point i enjoy the podcasts waaay more than the actual clashing on. you always have such an interesting conversation and i've learned a lot about edh
Started playing spectral deluge and have been very impressed so far. It's asymmetrical, and I usually end up foretelling it early game, then getting a blowout with it way later. I had a particularly impressive showing of it where I was able to bounce my opponents boards and pass with 6 mana open for a gather specimens, they played a big threat to lure out the counterspell, but ended up loosing their whole rebuilding turn and giving me that threat. It was brutal.
Hot Take: Whelming Wave is really, really good outside of just sea monster tribal, as a 4 mana bounce everything spell. It's a sorcery speed evacuation! It's like a blue wrath of god (which I still hold is worse than cards like Cleansing Nova)!!
I agree. Since sea monsters are so unpopular, wave takes care of almost everything.
@James Black yeah but if you are limited by budget or colors, it does it’s job. I’m never sad when casting whelming wave.
Curse of swine is a 3 mana sorcery speed single target removal card with multikicker 1. Treat it that way and it makes more sense.
Except no kicker synergy. Rip.
Aetherize and aetherspout are great because I often find that you only need to board wipes when 1 person is really far ahead. If multiple people are ahead of you, they usually just have to deal with eachother and aren't usually threatening you.
River's Rebuke is also a strong king killer card.
Sad River's Rebuke is never talked about. You hit the scariest player and the other players do the job of hurting them for you while they rebuild, and you continue on your day. Mainly use it in spellslinger and storm type decks because if you copy it, the control player can't stop every wipe coming (more often than not) and you get to have fun stack interactions
I know I’m really late to the party, but I have seen Spectral Deluge put in work for my buddies mono blue deck. Although it doesn’t have a body to flicker like Scourge of Fleets it is cheaper to cast and can be potentially cast for 3 mana if you foretell it on a previous turn.
I personally LOVE Fade Away. As someone who has a Krenko Mob Boss in their playgroup, Having a boardwipe on 3 that threatens to either totally clear board, or Armageddon the aggro player, the benefit cannot be overstated. And later in the game, You can just pay the extra mana to save several of your creatures while everyone else is forced to lose resources. It's like Curse of Swine, but where Curse counts up creatures to remove, Fade Away counts down creatures to save, which is much more valuable in multiplayer.
I like it too, but in tax decks where you've already forced them into a no win situation.
River's Rebuke is also pretty good. You can open the way for one an opponent to kill another one.
I play Rivers Rebuke in 6 Drop Tribal
You're honestly better playing 4 drop creatures that tap down each of your opponents creatures. River's Rebuke feels bad most of the time I find
What Richard keeps doing is ranking blue board wipes against other colors board wipes. Obviously, black and white board wipes are far superior to blue (barring Cyclonic Rift), which is why the fact that he keeps ranking blue waves against other colors it’s so frustrating and unfair
This week on the Punt or Bluff Podcast: are sea creature decks enough to warrant a B tier ranking?
Spectral Deluge is a great option, especially with the foretell discount. Also Aethergale is decent and kinda like Curse of Swine where it's multi-targeted removal.
Content creators should really remember most people won't spend 30 USD per card. EDHREC doesn't always represent the deck, but rather decks mid-brew before the checkout price pops-up :D
Perplexing test is also amazing in spell slinger because they often defend themselves with tokens.
Not only for "sea creature tribal". If your commander has one of those types, those sweepers are very playable. No tribal synergy beyond that is needed to get value.
If the creature type was too common, such as "warrior", it would be worse a sweeper.
Koma
I'll say this about Aetherspouts, you don't have to be on the receiving end of an attack, if your opponents are attacking each other it still applies, you can use this card politically as well to save an opponent.
Curse of the swine is ridiculously powerful as far as giving blue to multiple target exile effect. Gets rid of eldrazi and indestructible creatures and at the small cost of giving them a 2/2 token.
One you missed that I have really enjoyed is Spectral Deluge. It is super cheap and normally hits the entire board while leaving my creatures alone. But just in Mono Blue. I run it in my Wizards and Merfolk decks. PLUS it's cheap to buy a few copies of. (I know Engulf the Shore is similar and Instant speed, but I like being able to Foretell and play later especially since I'm drawing a lot of cards and don't always have one of my max hand size effects out early). Still probably B tier, but one to consider.
Scourge of fleets is an easy A for me. Even if you only have 3 or 4 islands you can get most of the board which you should be able to hit easily in even 2 color decks. Obviously not as powerful, but it occupies the same spot in my mind as elesh norn.
Ixidron is definitely missing!
Probably around B tier but I Love it.
I also like Kederekt Leviathan
Ixidron with massacre wurm is peak play
curse of the swine is underrated in this video. It deals with threats permanently, it's asymmetrical, and you don't have to make enemies with everyone at the table because you can choose to only target the most threatening creatures, stabilizing the board state without making yourself the table nemesis for all three other players. Literally none of the other board wipes on this list and generally other board wipes in other colors dont have this flexibility.
Aether gale also have this advantage, although curse of the swine is also unique by working around etbs
Wash Out is a Painter's Servant combo! 2 card upheaval is incredibly strong and warrants at least a mention, even if you do not think it's a fun combo. It even gets fetched by the same mono-blue tutors that work with scepter + reversal
Imagine tutoring for a 2 card combo in a casual singleton format
@@BananaNationTV Depends on what kind of answers they have.
Whelming Wave definitely belongs in C creature decks.
Koma
I literally just clocked in this to hear Tomer go on about Fade away 😂
Video Idea, Selling one another on your favorite commander from each colour/guild/wedge/shard.
Would love that!
Flood is a comfortable A for me, the tempo play you get for that mana is insane
The whelming wave conversation made me so mad. They define B tier as "really good in the right deck" and then say "it's bad because it's only good in one deck!"
Koma loves this card lol it’s B tier all day because Koma is popular. Even if it’s not a sea creature tribal deck.
Kenderek leviathan for me is a B, almost A.
You have at least 2 uses, works wonders with copy effects, and as a creature it's relative easy to cheat into play.
Extremely well-timed video for me personally, since I just built my first mono-blue deck recently. For researching that deck, I discovered a lot of these, and this discussion helped me frame my inclusions and cuts. I happen to be leaning way towards sea monsters, so Tomer has my full support of the cards that tend to help those out, particularly Scourge of Fleets :) which is a new favorite of mine.
Fade Away is a great card...
As a stax piece. When you have Stasis or Winter Orb or even just Propaganda it's back breaking, but it's not a board wipe
Someday we’re gonna be here hearing Richard argue Goblin recruiter is a c tier card.
If they switch conditional to C (which makes more sense to me) instead of B, then yeah, it's a C tier card. It's only good in Goblin decks.
I was somewhat expecting Aether Gale were here, as returning 6 permanents to their owners hand is close enough to a board whipe and I always found it kind of underrated as it alwasy performs great when I play it, as it can be very selective by not returning certain things (to not help recycle an opponents ETB) and be as one sided as can be, or even help you recycle your ETBs, like recurring an E. witness over and over to control the board.
I was suprised that you did not mention Spectral Deluge. Easy A from me.
Same here, outside of Cyclonic Rift its my top choice in mono U, even if it's seamonster tribal.
I will always defend the curse of the swine. As a pet card, it is so unexpected from a simic deck that hordes mana from a horizon stone or a kruphix. Add in the seedborn muse/leyline of anticipation/"our" turn combo, and it's just buckets of fun.
Most board wipes are sorcery speed and don’t exile so don’t agree with the argument for giving curse of the swine a C, also didn’t they all say last time they don’t care about a 3/3 for the beast within cards? So that doesn’t match
I was just thinking they would be likely to under value curse of swine, just knowing all of their playstyles.
@James Black it’s flexible doesn’t have to always be a board wipe
What I like about crush of tentacles that didn't really get mentioned here, is that the surge cost becomes MORE relevant the more of these symmetrical board unsummons you play, cause it gives you back your cheap permenants. So it weirdly gets better the more of these cards in this tier list gets played together.
Topic suggestion for next week: Best secret commanders ie ….. phage or 5 color orvar
Feels weird to me that whelming wave got rated so low. It's the closest blue gets to WoG and Damnation.
I play Wave in my Dimir Zombies deck for fun and having Rot-Tide Gargantua on the board when this resolves is so satisfying. I have a ZOMBIE KRAKEN and the rest of the board just turned to rubber...
Whelming Wave: good in any deck with a sea monster commander that attacks, good in UGx ramp, good in low board presence decks (durdle, some combo), and even better if the deck dabbles in tempo. Oh, and...
Good in sea monster tribal!!!
Wash out is by far the best cyclonic rift budget option
I just want to give a shout out to Ixidron it is a very fun boardwipe that gets around a lot of stuff.
Pro tip, Noyan Dar loves all of these that specify nonland.
Curse of the Swine is better than haters realize, especially if you have access to decent amounts of mana. I like it in Simic a lot, it's a great one-sided Wrath effect there, where you need to keep your value-weenies alive for your engine to work, yet need to exile people's creatures to get rid of things permanently. Now, it does have drawbacks, but you can only ask so much for a selective board wipe in mono-Blue. I think it feels pretty bad a 1 creature, but feels good already at 3 targets, provided they all mattered, and when your deck can tap for obscene levels of mana reliably this gets pretty brutal. Even value weenies can potentially deal with 2/2s. I run it and Mass Manipulation in Simic lands, with The Great Aurora as a green wipe. Exile is a very big buff over Destroy in most cases, so I like Curse over Pongify, and would probably cut one of Pongify's two versions (which I do in Talrand actually, huh).
Aetherize is a good wipe, but Aetherspouts hits so much harder. You usually can't put more than 1 or 2 creatures on top, and their Commander is usually going back to the CZ for good measure. It's one of the most brutal wipes vs certain decks, and it's part of why my Meren deck doesn't like attacking much.
Not mentioning the Kederekt Leviathan and it's joyous interaction with Necromancy making a repeatable 3cmc instant speed reset that can only be stopped w/ graveyard hate or a counterspell seems wrong. Not mono-blue but can be a game ender in many tables.
Yes. That synergy is ridiculous. It's strong with Animate Dead & Dance of the Dead too. You can even go infinite with the right rocks.
It's actually stopped by most _destroy_ effects. Anything that can handle a creature or an enchantment will also stop the combo.
I play quite a lot of 5 player games, Coastal Breach and the other Undaunted cards are fantastic in our group - we should probably play them more!
Richard evaluates cards a lot based on how they affect the other players emotionally, you can really see why he's so great at politics.
I’ve played dev tide in temur lands to great effect. You don’t care about your non-lands and you run enough blue fetches + other ways to get mystic sanctuary into play and bounce it back to hand that you can pretty much repeatedly instant speed wipe for 2 once per turn cycle.
Yeah, Devastation Tide is better than this video acknowledges. It's mediocre if you don't have enablers, but solid if you do. What other card can bounce everything at instant for two mana?
Cyclone summoner is a better board wipe than most of those expensive sorceries in there imo
Crush of tentacles is actually busted in cheerios storm decks with a mill sub-theme. In my Emry deck, it's draw 8 cards because Altar of dementia plus 3-6 storm count for cards like mind's desire and brain freeze. And it fuels treasure cruise and dig through time randomly.
Wait, how did they miss rivers rebuke? I think pantsing one opponent a lot of the time is a really good thing; sometimes better than a true wipe. You deal with the problem player, AND have 2 other players incentivized to swing at them instead of you... Being a red player definitely has taught me the value of using your opponents as damage spells.
One of my favorite board wipes is rivers rebuke. It is mean and clunky, but very effective.
I like river's rebuke as well. It takes down the archenemy, and you lavarage it for political favor of tje rest of the table
Aetherspouts is the ultimate fog defense. Completely removes 1 player for several turns. Doesn't win or help win, but it makes someone else lose.
Honestly I've had incredible success with a card named Aether Gale. 3UU sorcery that lets you unsummon 6 nonland permanents. There are times where that cost lets me bounce every threat and then some, while leaving my own boardstate intact.
Perplexing test, any deck that makes tokens when you cast instant/sorcery (about 3 legendaries and 9 or more non-legendaries) so its great. Just requires you to build for it.
I think spectral deluge is great honestly, if foretold it can be played for only three mana, and in mono blue it is onesided
Consuming tide at least B. 4 mana (before reductions) doesn't bounce my best thing, and draws up to 3 cards. It can literally be just a harmonize. And its still a harmonize.
For those that don’t know
I’m card games, if an effect sends a card back into the deck, we call it a “spin”
So aetherize, isn’t a bounce, which y’all pointed out but never could find the word for what it does
It’s called a “spin”
Spinning cards back into the deck, imo, is the best type of removal in any card game
Ixidron is effectively a board wipe that none of your opponents can do anything about really
Fade Away is pretty gas in blue based decks like Minn or Dennick where it doubles value as a sac outlet and your colour identity doesn't allow for many other options.
Far and away the best common-wipe for pauper commander too. Outside of that though it's alright, you're mostly playing it for dank edge case reasons.
Flood of Tears is pretty strong if the player casting it can cheat in Omniscience or some crazy swing card, but it requires some build around
I love flood on storm decks like jhoira weatherlight captain You can float mana bounce everyting and redeploy all your low cost artifacts You can put back an aetherflux or jhoira herself to keep storming :)
@@lorpuz4664 I used to play it in standard with war of the spark ugin and a bunch of 2 mana etb draw artifacts to churn through the deck (war ugin lets you cast them again for free). Another deck was with war nissa and spark doubles to generate insane amounts of mana potentially casting multiple tears per turn. The nissa lands also stay on the board able to attack.
Honestly, I feel that clash could be improved by returning to the old ban list. I loved the series for highlighting some more obscure cards and really making the deck construction work with the restrictions. Now all the deck's have the same backbone of staples and is less inivitive
Casting Cyclonic Rift in response to a wheel is just so back breaking and I love it
Could you all do an episode highlighting Underplayed Artifacts with potentially High Ceilings?
I'll start:
Thran Lens - Turns off Protection which is overlooked
There are around 1,300 legal commanders and then infinite ways to build each one, but Crim evaluates every card on the basis of his only decks and play style. Flood of Tears got a great assessment from Seth followed by Crim “I’m not tapping out”, despite the fact Omniscience would allow him to tap out and still play all his instants. Sometimes a bit 1 dimensional.
I love the love for sea creature tribal. I’m running Engulf, Wave, Crush, and Scourge. Not rift. Flavor > power
I love the Crim/Sukuna background Crim! JJK is awesome
The idea that Engulf the Shore is too inconsistent in a blue heavy deck like U/G or U/B Sea Creatures is freaking wild. Got 38 lands and like 25 of them are islands, idk why Richard is saying it's inconsistent.
I agree that Engulf is much better than Richard rates it, but he's right that he cuts basics a lot in monocolor decks.
lu xun - 20 island
oswald fiddlebender - 8 plains
rionya - 15 mountains
@@poipoi9816He definitely does, but Oswald might be an outlier. There's so many artifact centric lands and that deck's demand for white mana is probably very low with how many cards there are that don't need white mana at all.
Because the way they build their decks, there will be 10 islands at most. Even in a two-colored deck.
Sea Monsters mono blue is a real deck. I stand with you Tomer! It's real!
Flood of Tears makes Yarok happy as can be. Resets your ETBs, lets you clean up then drop Yarok back out for max value next turn, and you have an outstanding blocker if anyone rebuilds with haste.
Can't agree with Tomer more at the start. Challenging opinions is the best way to test and evolve them.
You guys should do this but for mono white ramp cards. I would love to hear you squabble over Cartographer's Hawk!
Two of the top three mono blue commanders (Talrand and Orvar, the non-token being Urza) make a bunch of tokens. Seems like there would be enough token decks for perplexing test to be viable.
kinda surprised ixidron isn't on this. It's very niche, but it uniquely fills that niche and it very much improves many problematic boardstates.
while not technically a sweeper, I, at the very least, count its effect among them.
This reminds me of the Black Vise commander deck I've always wanted to build.
Crim talking about consuming tide feels like another version of "Are we 5-0 Split good?"
Like, he will play it and tell the archenemy that "See, I helped you, now they are defensless, get them!"
I for one think that fade away is not particularly good at wiping the board. They can keep their best thing and you don't draw a card. Hmmm
One other strike against Consuming Tide is that you make your choice first and then everyone else can choose to keep whatever is best against your choice.
I think people are forgetting how few sweepers there are in green and red. Red has Blasphemous act, chain reaction, and Chandra ignition. Maybe you count star of extiction but its crazy expensive. And green has the 1 that makes 4/4 beasts to fight everything. And its pretty bad. Notice I didn't include mizzium mortar. Otherwise its just x spells which are pretty bad.
Skipping Earthquake in red bc it’s an X spell is lol
Scourge of fleets is straight broken in orvar. Every time iv dropped it iv won because it wipes the board and gives you a repeat wipe at instant speed to keep the board clear.
Make these weekly please.
Fade away + Price of glory is my new favorite combo
Did they skip Spectral Deluge? It's mono blue only but *the best* effect outside of Cyclonic Rift in mono blue.
@MTGGoldfish Commander Devastation Tide is an auto c because of the Raymond Swanland art.